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Trail Running Series: Crewing and Pacing
8.9k Plays1 year ago
Alyssa is joined by two special guests this episode on pacing and crewing, her pacer from the Canyons 100 miler, Nic Erol, and her husband and long time crew chief, Codi Clark. The first part of the episode focuses on pacing where Nic and Alyssa discuss the history of pacers, their purpose in races as well as where in the world pacing is allowed or disallowed. They go on to talk about what to look for in a pacer, the pacer’s role for the runner, and discussions to have pre-race. In the second half of the episode, Codi and Alyssa break down the role of a crew, especially how a crew chief operates and delegates tasks to help the runner. They also discuss packing essentials for crew, how to mentally and physically prepare for the race and wrap up with Codi’s key takeaways from crewing for the past six years. This is a great episode to share with your pacers and crew to help prepare for success in racing and beyond.
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Transcript
Introduction to Trail Running
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi everyone, welcome to the uphill athlete podcast. We are continuing on with our trail running podcast series and talking about pacing and crewing as those are super vital components of trail running.
Meet Nick: A Pacer's Journey
00:00:16
Speaker
Today, I'm thrilled to bring on a good friend of mine, a badass pacer. He has helped me in a successful canyons 100.
00:00:29
Speaker
And he is here to talk to us all things pacing. He's also super knowledgeable about running and just a fun chat. So Nick, thanks so much for being on. That's quite the intro and thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
00:00:52
Speaker
Of course. So first of all, where are you coming to us from and how did you get your start in this silly sport as we were just talking off script? It's a silly sport that doesn't really matter, but it's a lot of fun of ultra running.
00:01:10
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm Australian, but I've been in London, UK for almost 10 years now, and I'm leaving London permanently on Monday, so you're getting me in the last week here. I was always an athlete, so I grew up swimming, grew up in the outdoors, played field hockey, so I was running a lot, but never ran, and then kind of when I moved over here in my new 20s, I just wanted to get exercise and kind of explore the city, so I just started running. I didn't like the gym, so I was just,
00:01:38
Speaker
go out the door, go for a run, and then one thing led to another. I started doing that more, started finding things, and then stumbled across a YouTube documentary about the Western States 100, which became a bit of an obsession, as, you know, after having me pace you for seven hours, but kind of fell into sport, started researching things, jumped up to races, jumped up to longer distances very quickly, and just fell in love with the sport.
00:02:02
Speaker
Traveled a lot, met some wonderful people and just very quickly just became a part of my life and something that I love to do and is very much part of who I am. Again, as soon as it is, there's great people, there's great opportunities to travel and just have fun adventures really, which is what it's all about me and why I've stayed in the sport through ups and downs and injuries and the likes that we all tend to have.
00:02:26
Speaker
Oh, it's awesome. And we really should just do a separate podcast of your knowledge of the history of Western states, because I have never known more about the race. I feel like I haven't even half tapped into what you know. And it was a ton of fun to have your knowledge as we were actually on quite a few sections of the race themselves. So that's a future episode. But the reason why we have Nick on is that Nick, first of all,
00:02:56
Speaker
such a huge member of the trail running community. He will just come to the US and come crew and pace and help at Western States, at Canyons. And so he has a really in-depth knowledge of kind of the behind the scenes workings of ultra running.
The Role of a Pacer in Ultra Running
00:03:17
Speaker
And so he's here to talk to us about pacing. So first off, Nick, what is a pacer? What is that?
00:03:27
Speaker
So I think the origin of pacing is it dates back to like sort of like particularly the hundred mile distance predominantly in America I think it's mainly a North American thing you will see races outside of America have them like Australia, New Zealand but it's very much centralized to North America and it sort of goes back to the long hundred mile races where you could be
00:03:47
Speaker
24 hours 30 hours in a race and then there's quite elements where it's you know like a let's say western states is a point to point hundred mile there's some sections which are quite exposed same with like races like hard rock where there's like long stretches you're in higher plane environments there's lots of danger there is trying to find the course and you're often in the middle of nowhere often with no cell reception and
00:04:09
Speaker
in a race. So the Pacer is someone that's not an official part of the race, they've not signed up to race, they don't get any medals, they don't pay any fees, but they are signed on, they often, you know, nowadays will sign a declamer and wear a bid that says Pacer, so they're officially attached to a runner.
00:04:25
Speaker
there's obviously lots of rules and things which we'll get into but that person generally isn't a company meant for safety now so that's during the night so it's an extra pair of eyes it's just making sure things are safe it's navigating things where maybe course markings have come away or you don't you've never been there before and it's nice and you're climbing up a mountain is it the right way and there's maybe not a lot of people around or you've got a long stretch between
00:04:48
Speaker
you know, eight points or maybe where there's cell reception, probably back in the day where you didn't have your phones and things on your watch to guide you. So that's the origin of it. Recently, I get to say recently, as race has got more competitive, the pace will also be an element of in competition. So having a pace, so for the front and the faster runners, having a pace to push them and help with strategy and
00:05:12
Speaker
mind games with other runners and all those things, all within the rules within the race, but that pace there can make a big difference and, you know, get someone to, as an example, push someone to run up a hill where they're tired and they want to walk and, you know, try and chase someone that's in first. And, you know, there's multiple cases of, you know, in stories of mind games of paces and, you know, people contributing their extra push at the end of a race due to a pace. So
00:05:36
Speaker
But the origin is very much a safety part, and that's still very prominent these days. If some runners are out there for 30, 40 hours, and depending on the race and the day, they could be in the night twice. You see bears, you see cougars, you have all these number of things. And as we know, anything could happen when we're out there on a run. You could fall, you get injured. So there's an extra element of safety, and particularly for races that don't have mandatory kits.
00:06:01
Speaker
You may have less things there, so you have someone that's physically there to guide you. But they're very much attached to the person running. They also have to abide by the rules and regulations of the race, and they're all different. But essentially, you could get having a pace in there if they do things which are outside the race rules that can disqualify the runner. So there's a big responsibility there.
00:06:26
Speaker
That's fantastic. I mean, you pretty much covered all of it. Really, that safety factor is such a key component. And I like to think of them as a friend that becomes your brain and reminds you to eat snacks and stay on track is another piece of it. But an interesting component, and you touched on this with a pacer, is that pacers are not a universal part of ultra running. So where?
00:06:56
Speaker
Do you see pacers not allowed? Because they are not allowed in many parts of the world.
00:07:04
Speaker
So I don't think there's any races in Europe that allow paces. There may be one or two, but generally it's not. Generally paces are in the 100 mile distance, some 100 kilometer races, but it's generally 100 miles or above. It's generally thought that races, distance is shorter than that, don't need paces. And then there's other things like logistics and the amount of bodies on a course and that sort of cost benefit.
00:07:30
Speaker
Traditionally, it's the races like Western States, Leadville, Hard Rock, Cascade Crest, those big hundred miles and there's plenty of other ones that you would have pasted as well. You don't see them all sort of the 24 hour races like the track races or those enclosed ones. So it's generally those long distance hundred miles in the mountains.
00:07:48
Speaker
Occasionally some 100Ks, races in Europe generally make you have a whole bunch of mantra kits. So all these things that you would just have to have with you and you can get disqualified for so that in some ways makes it safer so that if you're stopped for say two hours at a mountain pass that someone can safely evacuate you.
00:08:05
Speaker
So there's that element there. A lot of some races have permitting issues, which means that there's only a certain amount of runners through a certain area. So that would, depending on where the race is, if it's a point where you would traditionally have a pacer. So in generally anywhere after the 50 to 60 mile mark, I think generally 60 miles, but some races will say 50. So all those factors there is generally, again, if you're looking for a race and the pace is generally a North American 100 mile in the mountains.
00:08:35
Speaker
totally. And I think that that's a very funny point of, I don't know if it's contention, but just joking amongst Europeans and Americans where the Europeans will kind of make fun of the Americans for getting to have a safety blanket of another human running with them. But I also
00:08:54
Speaker
have had incredible experiences with the Pacers, had a ton of fun, have done European races where I don't get them and wish that I'd had a friend out there. So there's definitely pluses and minuses, I think, to both. I think that it's really a beautiful thing in the European races where you are
00:09:15
Speaker
And as to handle yourself in a different manner, you don't have, yes, you have the safety kit, but you don't have the mental boost of a friend who's coming to run with you. And so I think that that's a different challenge in its own manner. I think it's a very worthy challenge.
00:09:32
Speaker
I do also think that having a Pacer is a great safety measure, especially if it might be your first hundred or it might be something where you're tackling a bigger challenge. Also, I think from a strategy standpoint, Pacer, as you said, can really push you. So there are just different elements, different
00:09:52
Speaker
pieces that make things challenging or easier and so yeah pacing is just kind of a fun aspect of trail running that you can dabble and use in different ways.
Choosing and Preparing a Pacer
00:10:07
Speaker
I think it's worth mentioning as well that you know whilst pacing is you know very popular there are
00:10:13
Speaker
It's an optional thing. Um, each race will sort of state if you're allowed to have a pace up, how many generally be, you know, from a, let's say it's a 60 mile race journey, you'd have one for 20 miles, one for 20 miles, all the rules of difference. But there are people that have, you know, some of the best runners in the world don't like using paces and have done incredible things. Um, without paces equally, some that love a pacer and there's, and sometimes that will change race to race depending on.
00:10:39
Speaker
what you need at the time, how you're feeling, any number of factors. So I think it's, you know, very much a North American flavor. It's different to race in Europe. And it just comes to me over there. And, you know, some some people embrace it, some people don't. And it's just, again, it's an optional extra if that's what you choose. And it could be for competitive reasons, it could be for safety reasons, it could be just want someone to come and hang out with you on when you're going for a really long run.
00:11:04
Speaker
Totally. No, that's a great point. I do think also there are some people who just, yeah, like you said, don't use pacers because it's almost a point of pride for them of like, oh yeah, not gonna use a pacer or just, hey, it's a huge ask of family, friends, et cetera. And they just don't want to add that extra burden, add that extra element of coordination and organization. So you can definitely be in a race that allows pacers and not take on a pacer.
00:11:33
Speaker
But with that being said, as we are considering our race, what should you be looking for in a pacer? And let's take it of what you should be looking for if you're, say, going for a top spot, a podium, et cetera, and maybe what you should be looking for in a pacer if this is your first 100 and you are just getting to the finish line, which is a very amazing and admirable goal.
00:12:02
Speaker
Yes, that's a really interesting question. I think a lot of times often people are trying to find a pacer at the last minute. Again, we can speak to that one. So it's not always... Sometimes you've got people that you know and you can sort of really have a clear list of what you want and what you need and then find a perfect match, but often it's not like that. In a perfect world, I guess we start from the safety perspective, you want someone that's capable in the mountains or in the conditions. Generally you want them, I think,
00:12:32
Speaker
I know we've spoken about this before, but some people would probably, one school of thought would be that they don't need to be able to run a hundred mile or be that competent because they're running a small section. As we've kind of like chatted offline before that you still need to have a fair capability. So someone that is capable, it can handle a running in a different pace, a handle, a bunch of different conditions, different challenges, and still can have that capacity to support and to guide.
00:12:58
Speaker
There are plenty of cases of where there's someone who's being mismatched and has someone that isn't capable and say maybe it gets colder, maybe it's harsh conditions that say hard rock when you're at 14,000 feet or high altitude or just sketchy weather and you've got someone that can't look after themselves and they become a liability, the same as any sort of outing in the back country where you've got someone that doesn't have that minimum standard.
00:13:23
Speaker
So generally a pacer should be able to run the distance comfortably and be out on their feet or out without less support comfortably. Again, doesn't need to be as fast as the same person because
00:13:36
Speaker
you know, even when you get into the top end of the sport, they've run 60 miles, you're jumping in for 20. In theory, you know, you don't need to be, you know, there is levels there and that will depend and you sort of need to guide that, but it's not, you know, a definitive, you need to be the same speed and be able to run the same distance. And then, you know, it's, is someone, do you want someone that's super chatty and like, and are you really scared and do you really find you have low patches? So do you need someone to build you up? Are you someone that's like,
00:14:04
Speaker
would run through rules and this gets reckless he needs someone to be like hey let's chill out let's calm down so someone to moderate your energy do you want someone that just knows the course so that someone that's like i just need someone to guide me so i don't have to think i can switch off do you need someone that's really going to be on your ass about something knowing that you're going to get cranky you're not going to want to take food so someone that just needs to mum you the whole time and say take this take this take this i don't care
00:14:28
Speaker
And that will depend on the race. And I've been in races where someone's like, you know, caring for an elite athlete who said, I will get to mile 60. I will tell you who I need. And, you know, all the needs of the race. So there's always other things there. And as you sort of take it to that elite competitive level, you want someone that's going to generally push you and look after you, because there are instances when you need to push someone and get them to be running when they want to walk. You should be getting them to get up and go. Other times it's sort of a
00:14:56
Speaker
objective person to say like hey I'm pretty sure your knee's blown out and that we could finish but is it what you want to do for the rest of your year and your career is it worth doing this and having that sort of objective support there or and you have to communicate that to crew and other people but generally from the front end you want someone that's a
00:15:13
Speaker
to motivate you that someone will push you that's not going to let you just go like I'm feeling I'm feeling tired I want to walk is that well you came here to race so let's go and again different people like different things and I think as you sort of get into the sport and depending on the type of race
00:15:28
Speaker
you know you'll sort of guide you have a gauge of what you need from someone and then another part of that which i'm sure we'll cover is like tell them you're giving your pace out and crew briefing this job is like hey i need this from you so when i say i want to walk and i'm tired i don't want to eat food that's not an option for you you know that type of thing so again it's very much a
00:15:47
Speaker
You're choosing, yeah, I'd say the same as going out into doing like a really high up on adventure or something, you're choosing someone who's gonna be a good partner for you and they're gonna get you to the end safely and achieve all your goals along the way, ideally, and be able to adapt and do that. So again, quite a broad summary of it all, but I guess that's the nature of the sport.
00:16:07
Speaker
No, that's perfect. I think you touched on a couple of really key points that I'd like to expand on. And I think the first one is you need someone who's capable of doing the distance and it's not a strain on them. I think
00:16:23
Speaker
what is underestimated is how mentally taxing pacing someone is, especially someone who's having a rough time. I've done, I've paced before and, you know, my runners had a really rough nausea issue or heat issues. And so it's like, it's taking a lot of emotional and mental energy for me to be caring for them and also making sure that I'm
00:16:51
Speaker
getting in some calories and have been awake the whole night. And so don't underestimate that even though the distance might feel very feasible, you are taking on significantly more mental strain because you are looking after someone. And I think that
00:17:09
Speaker
that's something that's really key is like, you're not just going along on a fun little run with your friend. Like you are also very responsible for that runner. And so I would not take that lightly as a Pacer. I don't take it lightly as a Pacer. I think the other part, and I can get into a specific story, is yeah, be really clear with your Pacers of how you want them to speak with you. We'll get into more specifically a pre-race meetings.
00:17:39
Speaker
But there was one time, I thought this was so great during canyons where I was really tired of eating, which anyone at mile 80 is just like, yeah, I'm kind of done eating. And you said to me, and I said this to other people, I don't care if you don't want to eat. You can have a nice meal when you're done. This is your job. Eat your food. And I was like, okay.
00:18:03
Speaker
And you need people to tell you because as you're running, you're super tired, you're super fatigued, you're not thinking straight. And so I think it's really good. It's funny how quickly we kind of knew each other. That was exactly what I needed, that tough love in that moment. And you were able to deliver that. But yeah, definitely.
00:18:27
Speaker
the right thing to say at the right time. I will also add that as much as we love our significant others, our family members, etc, that can actually be really detrimental to have your partner running with you.
00:18:42
Speaker
or a family member because they are not always as good about pushing you when you need to be pushed or being objective in their observations of you. For example, I don't necessarily ask my partner or
00:19:00
Speaker
my family to come with pacing towards the end of the race because I need someone who has a further distance from me and it's just like, hey, I know that you can do this. I know you're sad and tired. Not necessarily sad, but I know you're tired and fatigued and I don't care. You need to keep going because this is the goal you have. Sometimes when you have someone who
00:19:24
Speaker
doesn't, you know, who's, who's loves you is related to you, etc. They're not quite as good. They're like, Oh, I'm so sorry, you feel bad here, lay down and rest. And so I think that it's crucial to know how, who is who can be in key roles for you. So not necessarily just the person who's going to coddle you, but the person who's going to challenge you.
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah, there's some really good points. And I think, again, as you said, at the start is, whilst it's maybe you're running 20 miles with someone, if you're accruing 100 miler and you're part of the team, you start at 5am or you're up at 3am in the, I say, Western States or Canyons, they start about the same time, like really early in the morning, you're up before that, you're doing all the things, you're getting to the start, you're seeing you run a leave.
00:20:12
Speaker
Western States, you're driving a ton of mileage to get to really remote A stations and you're chasing around. Canyons, there wasn't a lot of cruise spots, again, very remote, so you're a lot of driving around and getting to places and bringing all your stuff down, seeing you're on your feet the entire day, you're doing with the heat, you're standing around.
00:20:29
Speaker
often you don't get great opportunities to eat and have snacks and all those things. So you're still, whilst you're jumping in, essentially fresh to run, you've been on your feet for 10 hours, 15 hours, 20 hours. You haven't had great food necessarily. You've been in the heat or in the cold, you have to deal with that stuff and then you're just jumping in. So you need to be after, there's a minimum standard. I think people sort of do underestimate sometimes and
00:20:55
Speaker
Another element to that is find the pace in the race. A, it's not my race, so it's not about me. And also that means that no one cares if I'm having a bad time. My job is, I have very much a very specific job, the same way your job's to eat your food every 20 minutes. My job's to make you work hard and do that. So if I roll my angle, I've run a, I've paced someone with a torn carpet for it. It's like, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine.
00:21:16
Speaker
And if I fall over in bank money, it's like, keep running, keep running, it's fine. If I need to go to the bathroom, you're keeping running. It's all on me or the pacer to manage themselves and put on a brave face and not show any of that problems because...
00:21:31
Speaker
as a and I've done that before I've had paces I've been sometimes worrying about them and the same reason sort of Matt Carpenter and Karl Meltzer and those people said they don't want paces and they're you know done incredible things is they don't want to be worrying about someone else and even having two percent of their energy about someone that can't keep up or whatever reason they just want to focus on them and themselves so that's
00:21:51
Speaker
a hard thing to do when you're, A, not running the same pace you would normally do. Maybe you're running behind them. Maybe it's awkward. Maybe your leg's a bit sore. Or maybe I'm just like, my leg's cramping now because I didn't need enough food and this person's trying to make me run up a hill. Or maybe I'm feeling awful, but I can't tell them I'm feeling awful. And you have to deal with all that stuff. And that takes a lot of maturity and a lot to just keep things down there, be positive, say the right things, and also know that that is your job. And you have to run that.
00:22:20
Speaker
you don't really get the excuse. So again, but I know that when I'm running, I've got to pace up, I can say whatever I want. And they also can tell me that stop being a baby and get on with it. So it is that distance. And again, there's examples of people where spouses and partners have been great paces and know that there's a role when it's very much, I'm not your spouse for this 20 miles. And then other times there's examples of people just
00:22:42
Speaker
Because again, we are choosing to a really hard thing. It's a choice. We're paying money to do it. We're showing up with our goals and dreams, but things get really hard. Even if you win the race, it's always going to be hard. There's going to be efforts there and there's going to be those low points and there's always a way out. If you want to find one, there's always something to do. And, you know, we will naturally try and complain and get someone to give us some comfort and sympathy. And, you know, we've all been there where you've seen someone just
00:23:06
Speaker
I don't want to go anymore. Oh, okay. It's okay. You can stop. And occasionally if it's a medical issue and that, you know, if you've had clear guidelines pre-race, you can make that call. But for the most part, it's just people letting people get away with it. You want people in your corner, they go like, no, we're going to walk to the next day's station. You're going to feel better. Eat some food, drink some Coke. Let's get walking. You can quit at the next day's station. And then you just keep postponing that. No, that's a hundred percent true. I think one of the wisest things I was ever told, um, John,
00:23:36
Speaker
Samuelson who started the hurt 100 told me before I ran hurt for the first time he said in every hundred miler there's always a point where your brain will tell you that you are too broken injured tired etc to keep going and it's your job not to listen to that
00:23:55
Speaker
And it does get better. There's definitely been hundreds where I haven't thought that. But for a lot of them, there's always that moment where like, I don't know about this. Like, there's like my feet are a mess. It's like, turns out your feet are fine. And so I think a pacer can be that that objective brain that's like, they're totally fine. What are they talking about? So I think that that's a super key element to it. Yeah.
00:24:21
Speaker
So I think that one of the things we've been touching on but not fully dug into is the actual conversation you should have with someone that is pacing you before the race even starts.
Pre-race Communication and Strategy
00:24:38
Speaker
So what are the things that you tell your pacers before you actually get into the race?
00:24:46
Speaker
To me, it's always, you generally know roughly where you stand fitness wise. You generally have your goals. Sometimes they're very aspirational and they break apart from the start, which we've seen plenty of times. Sometimes you're like, okay, I've done this race before. I know this. I've run this time. This is my fitness. So you have a rough goal of what you want to achieve in the race. I think it's really important, particularly when you get the longer races, like the hundred miles, it's like, you have to have a deep why.
00:25:10
Speaker
which some people just choose races and they wonder why they drop us up. Well, you've got, you're not really invested in the race. I think you can get away with it. So like marathons and 50 Ks, maybe a hundred K, but a hundred mile, you'd really need to have a reason why. So I think I always want the people around me to know why. And I sort of say like, when it gets really hard, remind me of this or like, Hey, you know, so it's that again, remind me of you while you're there. I think
00:25:35
Speaker
you know if you've got hey my shins been playing up like conversations about things that could come up in the race and then so this is what we're gonna do or we have a troubleshoot or if I start doing this this has happened the last two races then this is what I want to do or if I come in looking like crap and I'm six hours behind my you know plan time
00:25:53
Speaker
A, B, C, these are things, or don't let me do this. Or if I sit down, you put a timer on, and after four minutes, you kick me out, no matter what's happening. Or if I'm coming in saying that my leg's hurting and I've never had problems before, it's like, okay, okay, what you're doing is we're going to medical. This is the course. So in the same way, you would have businesses and cases have like, if this happens, this is the system you follow in the process. And that flow shot of, has this happened? Yes, why? You have a very clear thing. So there's no surprises. There's no, always needs hurting, he can quit. It's like, no, the conversations we troubleshoot.
00:26:23
Speaker
And then we do that and then it's, you know, walk it out or, you know, and you have conversations like, if my race isn't going well, this is what I'd like to hear. Or I don't respond to yelling, so you need to be really kind. Or if you're really kind with me, I'm just going to be a baby. So you need to be a real, you know, I don't want sympathy. And it's some people that you say like, hey, you can't be nice to me.
00:26:42
Speaker
be firm, be friendly, be fun, be the baby. It's like, cool, what's the problem? Let's fix it. Off you go. So it's very practical things like that. Obviously, things like making sure they know what kit and all those things. And again, a lot of it, if you really have time, and ideally it was, I guess we can use the example of I was on a plane ride to California. I started getting WhatsApp messages on the Thursday. There's a Friday morning race. A friend of mine,
00:27:08
Speaker
I need to pace it for the 100 mile. I'm like, okay. So that was very short term. You just signed up for the 100 mile. You jump up distance, which nobody does, apparently. I was on the plane over. I hadn't been running anywhere near as much as I wanted to. So it was very, you know, I've run 100 miles. I know the area and I know what the course was very much. I'm confident enough in this. And then it was conversations like, okay, this is aiming to podium.
00:27:34
Speaker
she won her last 100 milah and she's you know so I was like okay so I'm going here to work so it's not just getting a person who wants to finish their first 100 is very much you're running fast and it's very competitive with those goals in mind and then I think we spoke very briefly that night sort of like yeah I think I'm like do you want me to run in front of you behind you very practical things like that because some people
00:27:57
Speaker
you know, if you're running with someone there in front, you end up, they, I've seen people where the pace is all excited and runs too fast, or someone just, you know, running in their, in the next thing, like, where's their runner, they're turning around, they're running, and you can't see them running, eating, you don't see them drinking, so all those things. And again, I remember when I first got on the sport, I was listening to podcasts and just hearing all these things from you around, and it's like, okay,
00:28:17
Speaker
So you need to have those conversations and also I've been in a race where I've been tired and at night and the person phoned me and then you know you have those pets all those reactive headlights which will flicker and change so they cut the light off that I couldn't see that I'd like hit my toe or think I'm in a trip so all these little nuanced things where it's like okay
00:28:35
Speaker
I personally like to be behind someone if I'm pacing so I can see them. And they set the pace. If they're walking, I will walk. If they're running uphill or something, I will run. And then it's easier for me to occasionally adjust to that cadence. Whereas if I'm running up a hill and you're not, then it's like I'm leaving behind. And then you get that rhythm. You don't.
00:28:56
Speaker
You don't understand those nuances, which will add up at the end of 100 Mylar. Again, say, hey, you need to eat some food. And then you watch them eat the food. It's like, have you been drinking? You get to ask those questions. So again, some people have preferences. You try and sort that out. And then on the fly, you're figuring those things out as well.
00:29:14
Speaker
you know, I think asking questions like what fueling are used? What happens if that's not working? What happens when we go to A stations? What are you wanting to do? So all those very practical conversations so that on the race there's as little questions and energy getting wasted on things.
00:29:28
Speaker
the same way if you're again going on a big adventure, the same way if you're going traveling, you know, it's the same kind of principle of let's prepare for all the eventualities so that there's, we have A plan, B plan, C plan, what happens if we get there and the crew aren't there? All these things, what happens if something major happens?
00:29:47
Speaker
or I've got this, I'm allergic to bees, so if I get stung by a bee, I need to have this, or I'm asthmatic, or things like that which could be a factor if someone's diabetic, or I'm allergic to this, things that come on when you're sitting there and you don't know or don't understand, I think all those things are sort of important.
00:30:04
Speaker
trying to rule out all the practical things and ideally it's a lot of this stuff you pick up Jeremy pretty quickly if they're a good communicator you know what questions to ask but I remember we spoke for like five minutes on Thursday we met Friday morning had a quick chat and then was figuring out on the five it was very much like I'm right here I've luckily got to sort see you I was working at the sort of mile 1524 so I got to see you run in and leave I was like okay that's how we're doing a stations got it I got to sort of understand that but I think
00:30:33
Speaker
you know, asking as many questions, some very basic mechanics of like, what happens when we start running? What happens when we stop? What happens, you know, if I need this, like, how many things am I carrying? What gear will I need to have? You know, is there a mandatory kit? Do paces need to have mandatory kits? All those things which we realized
00:30:49
Speaker
on the fine. So what could get me disqualified? Are you allowed to mule? And one race I know allows me and that's Leadville, which is a throwback to the miners where they would let the mules carry their stuff. So in that one particular race, I can carry all the things for you. But any other race, that's an automatic DQ. So
00:31:08
Speaker
each race has the rules they have you know western states has a very clear state of life when you can pick up a pace or when you can swap a pace because all those things if you haven't asked them and haven't looked at the rules kind of all come back to it or sort of you know or i want to swap a pace or x point here so be prepared and then you know the paces need to be chatting and going in and all that stuff which comes with pre-race and then on the race as it goes on and
00:31:32
Speaker
Again, you're always adjusting, you're figuring things out. You're like, hey, we'll be coming into A stations, but always really slow here. So it's like, okay, we need to sort of figure this out. Or, you know, they're always asking this thing. So let's go in and ask for that thing in advance. And, you know, it's all very much just, you know, you're there to do a job and it's trying to, you know, remove as much decision making and, and, you know, it gets much troubleshooting sort of pre-programmed and pre-planned because
00:31:59
Speaker
things can go wrong and things can go pear-shaped and you want that person to be comfortable, that person knows what to do and knows the process and isn't going to let you down. Yeah. I mean, that was perfect. I think that, yeah, just really strong. I think that the biggest thing is that a pacer and a runner should understand is that feelings really don't matter in the moment. So,
00:32:26
Speaker
just be as blunt and honest with communication as you possibly can because that will remove a lot of potential areas for snags or holdups or wasted time if you're not just direct and get the job done. So I guess just a few things
00:32:44
Speaker
from personal experience, I would say is that I will tell my pacer, Hey, when I pick you up, you're going to be in charge of telling me when to eat. So I eat a spring every 40 minutes. So I immediately said, Hey, Nick, set a timer for 40 minutes. And you tell me when to eat because I stopped trusting myself as much to get that done. So that's just a really concrete thing. This is my nutrition plan. This is what I'm doing. Make me do it.
00:33:11
Speaker
And as we realized, you decided you didn't want to have them at the end. And I was like, no, you still have to have it. You got 10 minutes to have it. It was like, fine. So which goes to the point that even though, you know, you're supposed to do it and like, even at the top level, you still find reasons not to when the pace is still just needs to like, mum, you.
00:33:28
Speaker
Exactly. Kick you in the butt. Another thing I always try to do is I like to have my pacer tell me, hey, we're a mile out. What do we need done at this aid station? And then you work with your pacer and come up with exactly what you need. I need this bottle filled with this liquid. I need a piece of watermelon. I need to use the bathroom. I need this for my crew. And so especially if you're going into a crude aid station, your
00:33:55
Speaker
Pacer can text your crew beforehand and be like have x y and z out get a milkshake ready You know, just make sure that if you can plan accordingly if you can Text or have your pace or text your crew to have everything out That's gonna save a lot of time and a lot of like what's going on and chaos when you come into the aid station So that's something I don't even
00:34:20
Speaker
So I'd add to that as well. It's often, particularly later in the race, the runner gets tired and just is less chatty and has that less, they're very much focused on the mission. So it's often the pace that needs to come into a station. And again, I've worked at a station. Some stations have some of the best runners in the world, former champions. Other people have, you know, their kids volunteering. So you have a range of different people depending on the AC. So often it's frantic. Often they don't know what they're doing. They're not really running races.
00:34:47
Speaker
sometimes they have so you very much need to come in with clear directions so like hey we need two bottles of this and we need some of that and then you take care of your own stuff and make sure the runners got the stuff make sure they don't leave gear behind all those sort of things that you forget when you get tired you know putting poles away or you know coming in to like Chris says like hey we need another headlamp where's the other headlamp we're gonna need that or give me the jacket she needs a jacket that type of stuff as well because I've been there where you get
00:35:13
Speaker
It's hard to articulate stuff and then you forget things and you're very much brain foggy and just like, I'm on fumes. I've got 20 miles to go. I'm just trying to get down another spring and then eat drinks and Coke and get out of here. So the pace of very much becomes the mouthpiece and the one in charge of the strategy and the plan and making sure that stays afloat.
00:35:31
Speaker
having those conversations each time so you know what to do and you can very clearly communicate and get things happening because you get frantic you stand around people sort of you know often if you're particularly when you're sort of like either like away from people you get the whole A station just descends on you everyone's like what do you need and they're frantic and they're excited and very much a mismatch of energy and you often see people run off without the wrong thing or run off from fear to fill their bottles and
00:35:54
Speaker
all these things which can get disaster from just you know not taking 10 seconds to be direct and thoughtful and you know. Perfect yeah it's so vital that you get what you need from an aid station and it can be so overwhelming like there's lights and music and people talking and all of a sudden you're like oh my family's there oh my friend is there and you run out with nothing you need so making like definitely making sure your pacer knows your plan.
Pacer Positioning and Bonding
00:36:20
Speaker
Um, and the other thing I think you made a great point is the positioning of where your Pacer is. So I had a Pacer during Moab 240, loved the kid, but he ran about 15 feet, 10 to 15 feet in front of me for, it was like mile 200 or no, sorry, mile like one.
00:36:43
Speaker
70 to 2 something and him being 15 feet ahead of me was really demoralizing where I was like, oh my gosh, like why is this guy just running 10 to 15 feet in front of me and not waiting for me and like we can't talk and I feel just like disconnected and so I told him
00:37:02
Speaker
to stop doing that, but I think that's just a really good point. I actually think behind is probably the best place to be because unless you actively say to someone, hey, go in front of me and make me try to run with you, but if you are ahead of someone, you have to be really cognizant of where your runner is and how close they are because you can kind of demoralize them without realizing it if you are just kind of hovering that like douchebag distance ahead of them.
00:37:32
Speaker
Um, yeah. Yeah. I think as well on that note, it's quite important. I remember race of where like tiny things sort of like take you off the game. So I was very conscious when there is where I was running. Obviously I'm tall and have long legs. So it's sections where you'd be a bit steeper and I could hike it and you'd be running as I could, I would say like, I get two steps and I have to start running just cause if you start to hear a different cadence, it can throw you off. I would, you know, I'd be little things like,
00:37:58
Speaker
If i'm in it, say it's a hundred miler and the markers are doing my markers i change my watch to miles if it's kilometers to kilometers and then i always try to make sure my watch doesn't beat because i've been in a hundred mile before and hearing beep and then i'm like i thought we've run like four miles it's like you get in your head and it's just irrational and you start you're trying to do math it just drives you up the wall and like tiny little things like that can really throw you off
00:38:23
Speaker
And again, like if you've got someone running in front of you who's right there and, you know, it cuts off your light and then you can't see the rocks, you don't like, cause you're tired, you're not very cognizant anyway. All these little things can really throw out of a race. And again, part of it's your job to communicate and change things up. And the pace's role is to be self-aware. And again, I would, my default is always the position behind. And I think a lot of the early days people would say, by default, go behind. And, you know, particularly if it's not a lot of space on the trail and at dark and at night,
00:38:53
Speaker
is very much you need to be able to monitor them and ask them questions. And also if you're behind them, you can either just talk and fill the air or ask them questions, engage how they're feeling and what they're doing as well. So there's very much little taxes with that because what we spent seven hours on the trail, six and a half of that was me telling you why I should run Western States. There were definitely points where it was back and forth. There was points where it's like, I'm just in a talk and sort of,
00:39:20
Speaker
you know just reminded me here and we're moving other times it was sort of a bit of I think when we were climbing up after the river that road climb is a bit broken we both kept on seeing the moon and think it was an aid station but you know you have to manage that and know when sometimes it's like hey you just need to shut up or be working or sometimes you need to like hey I just need to talk stuff and be very light and just keep that momentum going and
00:39:40
Speaker
that energy's there and that comes with running with them and not walking when they're running and all those little things that can throw you off your game and I think, you know, watchers beeping or, you know, and some people are like, hey, I'll play some music, grab my phone. And that's a tactic as well. There's all those little things that can really
00:39:56
Speaker
add percentages or remove percentages of your capacity to run the race. And, you know, again, there's reasons for all those reasons why some people don't want paces. They don't want someone to be in their way or chatting them. And then there's equally races where having someone there just when you're in a really low spot, just talking crap about why you should run Western States just gets you moving along and pointing out that tree there or that point where the mutual friend thought you saw a giraffe and, you know, all those fun things. So again, it's very much the
00:40:27
Speaker
is very much a job. And it's, you know, as you sort of said, they're like, it is fun and pacing, pacing is fun. It's a great adventure. It's very much a privilege. And, you know, I always take pacing very seriously and treat it almost more, more importantly than a race, because it's, it's someone else's livelihood, like life at risk. And then they have a bad race and, you know, for me, you know, not taking it seriously or not looking after myself and they, you know, have to worry about me and whatever reason. And yeah.
00:40:54
Speaker
Awesome. Well, the last few things that we want to touch on are one of the, it's kind of funny aspects of it. I think it's always one of a pacer's greatest concerns, but also I don't think a runner is ever actually truly disappointed when it happens because it means that maybe your race is going pretty well. But Nick, what happens if you drop your pacer?
00:41:21
Speaker
So for those that don't know that means I'm sure most people do but dropping your pace is essentially when your runner is just flying or your pace is having a really bad time or maybe a bit of both and then they run off and the pace is left by themselves during the race. So that does happen. I can think when was it? Western states two years ago where I think
00:41:45
Speaker
Jeff Browning and a few other people were running from like the river and just dropping their paces like it was hot. Who else was there? Well, Katie just- Pat Reagan, it was just demolition. Katie dropped Topher in Western this year. Yeah. Pretty sure.
00:42:04
Speaker
Yeah, so dropping paces happens, particularly in elite anchors when you're like so zoned in and just going for it. Sometimes the pace is not, and there's plenty of situations that maybe the pace hasn't had a chance to eat their food or whatever reason, but so dropping a pace, for whatever reason, where the runner's doing really well or the pace is really struggling or wherever that sits on the scale. In most races, it's expected that the pace is managing themselves.
00:42:31
Speaker
the expectation is that the paces can self-assist and if they get stuck out there that they can get out themselves and again some other races like I think you said Candace's race the 200 mile plus race is purely because it's a safety here there's such a huge area to cover you're not allowed to drop your pacer your pacer is supposed to be with your runners so that you're you're tied together
00:42:55
Speaker
And that's very much a safety factor because there's huge stretches of land and places that are very inaccessible. The pace often won't have a GPS or the tracking on them. So if they go off course, it's very hard to get them out. And then it's just wasting resources because most races
00:43:11
Speaker
at the best of times anyway can really only cater to the runners so which goes back to what you're saying earlier about the pace and needs to be confident but in the sort of hundred miles like Western States if you drop your pace and they can walk the next day's station then wait to go lift out or get to where the crew point is.
00:43:28
Speaker
Generally, my perception is if I'm running and I'm dropping my pacer, that's a good thing. It's a confidence boost. And that, ideally, the pacer doesn't want to be put in a situation where they have, you know, again, I think there's a famous story of Ian Charming getting dropped by maybe Timmy Olsen because he had food poisoning or something. And you get weird situations where something like that could happen. But for the most part,
00:43:51
Speaker
You know, you really hope your pace is there, but their job is very much if they get dropped and know that they could get dropped. And I very much said like, well, I haven't run 33 miles for a while. So if I'm going to get dropped, it's like, well, it's fine because she'll be doing well. She'll be going on to win. So.
00:44:06
Speaker
I came in with that because I think most people would ideally expect that their runner would just go on and continue without them. But outside of, let's say, a bear attack or something very crazy happening in the race, you generally want your runner to crack on and keep going. And I've fallen over before and said, kept running, I think.
00:44:25
Speaker
even you know right at the end of canyons where we almost got demolished by the 100k star and I had to go try and pick up the bottle then I started crafting I'm like I'm the sort of let it go and you know it was like you know we just did the white bridges like well I'm gonna let I wasn't where you ran into town anyway so it was one of those things but I think
00:44:43
Speaker
very much it goes back to what's in the rules, where you can change pace and that. And it's very much that your pace should be confident enough that they can figure it out themselves. And I wouldn't really be wanting to go with someone that if 20 mile section that they can't sort themselves out and just even walk it out.
00:45:02
Speaker
You know, or, you know, at very least go like, hey, if someone else goes past and say, look, I'm just walking out, can you just let them know? But again, the 200 mile races have rules for that for a very, again, for the safety, because they don't want to waste resources on finding someone that's not even in the race and doesn't have a tracker and all that. So.
00:45:19
Speaker
Again, if I was a pacer and a little bit unconfident, and particularly in a remote area or something, I would have my phone with me. I'd take extra things. I'd have an extra jacket thing. So if I was stuck for a little bit that I could manage myself and get out, or if it's in the heat, you have space blanket or whatever you need to do to make yourself feel confident. But then, again, that goes back to our earlier questions, choosing the right person, someone that you know, if you're flying and you leave them behind, you don't have to worry about them.
00:45:49
Speaker
um the same way that if you're in a pretty gnarly situation out in the mountains where you're climbing or something you want to have someone you know that if something goes wrong that they're capable to do what they need to do so absolutely but again always read the rules always check the things always have those conversations and i i think i think i've had them before like if this happens just keep going and i'm pretty sure i said it too like just keep going
00:46:12
Speaker
So again, basic communication, which is, you know, part and parcel of just any outdoor adventure, whether it's a race or not. Totally. Yeah. And I think that one of the things to take note will use
00:46:28
Speaker
the 200 milers, for example, is that every race has a limited amount of resources. And so as a pacer, it's kind of a do no harm situation. Obviously things happen, you break your ankle or sprained or whatever, but you really want to try to minimize the extra strain that you're placing on the race itself. And again, as Nick, you've been kind of hammering, make sure you know the rules. I think
00:46:56
Speaker
that oftentimes we're like, Oh, we'll just jump at the race. And then you realize like, Hey, with the, with Candace's races, you can't be dropped or you need to carry mandatory kit. And, um, really again, with the Pacer, it's like your job is to help your runner do the best they're capable of doing. And so anything that you can do any homework, yes, ultimately you are the runners, like the runners should take responsibility for you, but also you want to do your homework and do your job.
00:47:25
Speaker
Like I know Candice has a whole manual for pacers and crew. So if you have a manual, runners make sure that your pacing crew have that information and pacing crew take it seriously. Because that can be the difference of someone possibly getting disqualified and that would really suck.
00:47:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think can is is a good example of why it's important to go through and read and understand everything because I was flying in I had no no plans to pace at all I thought I was just working a station having fun. For some reason I packed all my lighting extra gear and this arrived and then so we were chatting it's like now I have two paces and you do one section then
00:48:06
Speaker
I think it was really late at night. I was just going, I'm just going to read everything because I like to know that I like to know I'm comfortable and I don't want to do anything that upsets my runner. And, you know, it was all last minute and I just want to feel comfortable. So reading through it's like, okay, you're only allowed to, the pace has to start and finish that 33 mile section. You can't change it. And then it's like the pace has to have the same mandatory kit that the runner has, which was a whole bunch of things, which I guess by being a, by UTMB race, they added that on there. So, which is not normally the case.
00:48:36
Speaker
100 mile races in where you're allowed to have a pace. Generally there's no mandatory kit at all. So that was an anomaly and particularly being out at Western States which runs on much of the same course and is very much a pace that's need to sign their bib. There's lots of opportunities and it's very quite easy race to pace. I think there's other than the no mewling rule it's pretty easy to do. So
00:48:57
Speaker
reading through all those rules and very clearly making sure I had every single element of that so that again knowing that if you got first and they decided to check your stuff and check my stuff though just because I didn't have a hat you wouldn't get DQ'd or get a time penalty or something because that's you know we've done all the work and the job is the job to be have everything perfectly dialed and even little things like if you're running through ASAs like if you take something off and forget it and that's on you and if we need to be making sure that your runner has all that stuff at all times and then
00:49:25
Speaker
knowing where you can change and where you can get co-access which is all every race has it very clearly labeled western states has an entire page for crew and paces most other races very clearly state everything and what you need to do and for me that's the minimum standard if you're pacing you take two minutes to read the book double check everything you have questions speak to them and then just make sure that everyone's on the same page because
00:49:47
Speaker
I could have very easy to shake it. I came straight from an A station. I had to run up a hill. You barely got food. I pounded an In-N-Out burger, had a Red Bull, and then pretty much started pacing you. I was in such a rush. I only had the mandatory gear. I didn't have a jacket. I didn't have anything for after the race. But I was like, as long as I'm fine in the race and the list is good, that's all I cared about. And it was just...
00:50:07
Speaker
you know, very much that is, you know, crowing and pacing, you're running around and things happen and if you don't have all those things pre-done and checked, then you can just get, you know, it can save you a whole lot of trouble and again, I would, you know, you wouldn't, you'd hate to finish a race and get DQ'd and that has happened to races where people have been, I think, Xavier, Hyde Rock, again, getting crew at the wrong point and like, literally getting a sip of water or something, but that was, that resulted in a DQ where he technically finished a race in first. So,
00:50:37
Speaker
particularly the high level. Or even if you're just trying to finish the race, you'd just be gutted to get randomly checked and dequeued because your pace had forgot something. Definitely. And as you can hear, Nick is an A plus plus plus pacer because he was catching things that I was missing because I was last minute deciding to run 100 miles. So thank you, Nick, for saving my ass on a lot of those pieces.
00:51:04
Speaker
If you want an A++ Pacer, Nick's your guy and I have to still repay the favor. Are there any last tips or things you're like, Hey, this is a trick I use when pacing or go to that you found kind of universally work?
00:51:31
Speaker
Um, I think we've covered most things. I think it's what like, yes, there's a whole, like we covered a lot of responsibility and things that, you know, on the face or you may seem like a whole lot of pressure and stress, but I think pacing is really fun. You get to be part of someone else's journey. You get to help them achieve a goal. Often that's the,
00:51:50
Speaker
You might not be ready to run 100 miles, but you're a competent runner, you want to run ones, you're going to pace someone. There's been people that sometimes really need a pacer and wouldn't have finished a race without one. So it's such a joy. It's such a privilege. We had a great time out there. I got work really hard. We had fun being competitive as well.
00:52:07
Speaker
We had great chats at the end with people like Alex who race really hard and there's a lot of camaraderie around that as well and yes, you need to read the rules, there's all this pressure but it's really fun and it's an opportunity to be part of someone else's race and give back to the sport. Particularly if you race a lot as well and you have people who are all there for you, it's a fun part and I think
00:52:31
Speaker
Yeah, choose the right pace. Make sure you fit. Make sure you can do all the things you need to do and take it seriously. But at the same time, it is a privilege. It's great fun. You're part of the fabric of the community. And it's a special thing because you don't get paces in other races. So it's a fabric of the sport. And I think everyone should
00:52:50
Speaker
you know, be involved with volunteering or crewing and pacing, as well as going to races. And, you know, I guess my final thing is, do you have any sort of standout memories of any race where you've been at a pace or had a pace of there? And I'll sort of give you a bit of time to think and say, I remember my Western states and like climbing up Robey Point, you were 24 hours, like just outside 24 hours, but seeing the sunrise again and, um,
00:53:16
Speaker
just really magical moment showing up at my pace and going like hey we didn't get sub 24 but we've had a fun time and like we're done we're up roby we're done and just watching that and
00:53:26
Speaker
You know, like a moment again, as we've talked about before, is that if you pay someone in area for a hundred mile, you get a very special bond. And I think that's the most important thing to take away from all of this is like, it's, you know, we met that day, you know, not seven hours compression friendship experience. And, you know, we've become really close friends and, you know, adventure partners.
00:53:50
Speaker
since then that's just come out and I've got I can say that with a whole bunch of other people and you know that's very common when you speak to people that have like had racism those like remember that time at that race and you know so do you have any standout pacing memories or pacing or being paced
00:54:07
Speaker
Yeah. So I think, honestly, when we were at the bottom of Roby Point and I said, Nick, I think I'm fucking going to win a UTMB world major. And you were like, shut your face. You're not there yet. That was a great moment. So that was super special. And then I think getting to hug your pacer at the end of the race is such a great part. From a pacing perspective,
00:54:34
Speaker
Um, I think just, I've had, I've faced quite a few times and I think just getting to share the experience. I think oftentimes we forget that sometimes the race that we need the most is not actually our own race. And we can be really inspired and motivated by helping others achieve their goals. Um, I know I've certainly been brought to tears more than once by watching someone else's race, um, become and see them become a new person in a way at a finish line.
00:55:04
Speaker
So those are some really special moments. Nick personally has inspired me. I race quite a bit. I take a lot of resources from other people. So I'm calling October the month of my helping others month of pacing and crewing. And hopefully I can return the favor for Nick at a race coming up soon. So yeah, thanks so much, Nick, for joining. This has been a ton of fun. I think we could talk all day about
00:55:34
Speaker
these silly sport and the shenanigans of running. You need to get your golden ticket to Western so I can pay you for that. We'll try our best, Thailand. Might be on the radar. We'll see. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Nick. Let's do it. Cool. Thank you for having me.
00:55:55
Speaker
Hi everyone. So we have moved on to our part two of pacing and crewing in our trail running training series. So
Transition to Crewing with Cody Clark
00:56:05
Speaker
we are joined here today to talk about crewing with my husband Cody Clark. And this is our first in-person episode, actually the first in-person episode I've ever done for a podcast. So I'm pretty excited to get this one started and the fact that I'm actually married to him. So Cody, welcome to the show.
00:56:24
Speaker
Thank you for having me. Oh, well, glad to have you. Glad you could be here today. First of all, if you could tell us a little bit about yourself of your background in mountain sports and then also your experience with crewing. Oh, big question. Okay. So first and foremost, I am obviously the husband of the wonderful Alyssa Clark, the co-host of this podcast.
00:56:48
Speaker
Uh, second off, um, an evil officer and I work in, um, engineering and diving in salvage for the Navy. And I would say my, um, I'm pretty much, uh, amateur at all the mountain sports. I like to do them all, but I'm not very good at any one of them. Um, but I like to dabble, uh, for crewing. I think I've basically crude Alyssa for almost every race, except for maybe one.
00:57:15
Speaker
the 50-miler you did before we met. And then ever since the first time you did the hurt 100, I've been pretty much involved in all of them in some way or shape or form, whether that's on a computer following your track and coordinating using like cell service and internet or in-person crewing and coordinating people's pacing efforts.
00:57:36
Speaker
That's definitely true. I will actually say that Cody, five months into us starting to date, volunteered or was volunteered, that he was going to help me crew for my first 100, which was the hurt 100. And he stayed up for 30 plus hours.
00:57:56
Speaker
He was there at every aid station. He popped the blisters on my feet, carried me to bed, got me pizza. And I was telling one of my friends a couple days later about all that he'd done. And she said, if you don't marry him, I will. So I knew pretty quickly that anyone who is as selfless as he was crewing and as good at it as he is, was definitely a keeper. So I've kept him as my crew chief since pretty early on.
00:58:24
Speaker
But let's get into it, Cody.
Logistics and Crew Management
00:58:27
Speaker
First of all, what is the primary role of a crew? I mean, we've been throwing this around, but what is a crew for an ultra or trail run? Man, I don't know. I guess for the rest of the world, it probably feels like logistics management specialists, like you're just kind of
00:58:43
Speaker
coordinating the logistics behind the effort, the running effort. So I would say like you try to remove all the decision making from the person running and all the worries and the concerns of the person running so that they literally only have to focus on putting one foot in front of each other. Sometimes it takes a level of anticipation and perhaps knowing the person pretty well, but
00:59:07
Speaker
As far as I know, there's been some reasonably successful runners out there who have had a random person crew them. Maybe not multi-day stuff, but yeah, you got to kind of know your person and know what their goals are and try to manage the logistics for them.
00:59:24
Speaker
Definitely. And I mean, just the nitty gritty of it. A crew person is someone who's driving the car to the aid station, they're popping the blisters, they're bringing you snacks. When you say, oh my gosh, the only thing I want right now is a milkshake, they go to McDonald's.
00:59:40
Speaker
30 minutes away and bring you back a milkshake. And they make sure that you have all of the gear that you need. And they often are coordinating if you have a pacer. So the crew person is kind of your personal
00:59:56
Speaker
Helper, we'll say. Personal assistant. Personal assistant. It's really disappointing when the race ends and you realize your personal assistant is gone. They just basically handle all of the logistics while you are actually running to ensure that you have a smooth and as good of a race as possible.
01:00:19
Speaker
along those lines, how big should your crew be? And then how do you delegate within that? And what is a crew chief? Okay, so start probably in reverse order, the crew chief is the one kind of making decisions on the crew. And sometimes as the crew chief, you have for instance, this is more particular in a race like Moab, like a multi day race where there's
01:00:45
Speaker
multiple paces, it's kind of like a bigger event going on than just like a continuous run. And I say just continuous, very tongue in cheek, you know, a 24 hour straight run is, is very hard. But for something like Moab, you have to have like multiple paces and you're driving 200 something miles. Um, so the crew chief is going to be the one to be coordinating the efforts of all four of those people. And it's pretty easy for me being in the military and doing some of the things I do, just being able to like coordinate little small teams and
01:01:13
Speaker
Everyone kind of doesn't typically know that somebody just needs to take charge and make a decision instead of just allowing everybody to come up with their own plan on their own. So it's really easy when you have the background that I have to just kind of walk into a situation and be like, here's the plan. Okay. Does my plan suck? Does anybody have any recommendations? Nope. All right. Great. That's what we're going to do. And we're just going to keep on adjusting as we go.
01:01:35
Speaker
As far as your team, I think Alyssa has had some pretty good success with just me being a crew. I don't always pace, can't always keep up with Alyssa. I have to wait till, for Moab, I had to wait till she was 120 miles in and then I could pace her or something like that. But yeah, I'd say the crew can be as big as the race is and sometimes, sorry,
01:02:04
Speaker
there is an aspect of just having your friends around. So I think sometimes Alyssa has had her friends meet her at stops, not necessarily being the crew, but just being there and being fun and engaging and that can really lift morale.
01:02:19
Speaker
Definitely. But I think one of the most important things as Cody is alluding to is that a crew chief is someone who is making the ultimate decisions because as a runner goes further and further into a race, the less and less they're able to make those decisions. So if you have, I don't know, three, four or five people who all have differing opinions, you have to have someone who is the ultimate
01:02:42
Speaker
like this is decision maker. Yeah, decision maker. And the other aspect of it is that oftentimes a crew chief is not necessarily pacing because having one continuous person throughout, it's better for them not to pace because they can be tracking the whole bigger picture, rather than the pacers who sometimes are just seeing like bits and pieces of what's happening.
01:03:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's true. And again, like you can't bring up my experience enough like in the military, just like being the guy who's like the supervisor never actually has their hands on the material or the equipment. They're just kind of watching from afar, making sure that every piece is laying where it needs to go. Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:27
Speaker
So off of these lines, and I will say that I do think with choosing how big your crew should be, is that there is such thing as too big. Cody brought it up a great point with having friends. It's great to have friends there. But sometimes friends, A, might have that much experience with ultra running, and so they might end up kind of not realizing what you need at the time, and so they can be somewhat distracting.
01:03:54
Speaker
So you need to have a few really core dedicated people who for the most part know what they're doing. I mean, they understand ultras or at least you've sat down and really worked with them. Like I've had a couple of friends where we've had meetings beforehand and we literally just sit down. We're like, okay, this is what a crew does. This is what an ultra race is. And making sure that you have people who are really invested in reading the rule book in
01:04:17
Speaker
taking the time to understand what they need to do because also crews can get runners disqualified if you don't play by the rules of the race. So that's super key.
01:04:29
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that you really got to know, you got to know of the people that you're going to have as your crew or your Pacers because I guess it's like climbing. There's probably a lot of climbers on the podcast listening to. So, you know, you rarely ever like, you know, day one, step out into the Alpine with somebody you like kind of usually like maybe start a sport climbing day where you start like, you know, a hike day before you take on like some sort of huge endeavor. But, you know,
01:04:54
Speaker
I have seen quite a few times crewing around Alyssa and the people around Alyssa running, which I don't know why, but almost every single time I've crewed Alyssa, I end up like crewing like other people around her, which is always like fun. We've made some good friends, like Killian Korth that way, which is pretty cool.
01:05:11
Speaker
But yeah, like you have these people who invite either their family or like a friend or like a spouse that, or a significant other that's trying to accrue them. And they're like, Oh man, I don't really know what to do. He just told me to show up or they just told me to show up with this bag of snacks. And I'm like, Oh, that's great. Like what's in the bag of snacks? Like, have they been eating alone? Have you been counting the wrappers, counting the calories they've been giving back to you?
01:05:33
Speaker
Like, do you have any ideas on what they're taking for nutrition? And two bottles is one electrolytes, is the other one water? What's the plan? I don't really know. So sometimes it's just giving tidbits out to other people from my experience, which is an important part to say right now that crewing Alyssa Clark is not the normal crewing experience for everyone out in the racing world. Like, what I probably do for her
01:06:00
Speaker
Um, and what she is trying to do in the race and her goals is probably different than what a lot of people are trying to do out in a race. So, you know, we might have slightly different strategies between us and the general public.
01:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's always good. And that goes to the next point that I was actually going to make is understanding what your runners goals are. So I highly recommend that you have a pre race meeting with your crew. I mean, that's almost like essential, whether it's a zoom meeting, whether it's in person, whether it's the night before the race, so that you can go over, like all have sheets written out of like, this is exactly what my plan is. This is what I am giving you to bring to every aid station. These are the times that I'm expecting.
01:06:43
Speaker
to be there, Cody always rechecked them and tells me I'm incorrect. Oh, yeah, definitely do this. So on the court or Frank Corey, he said he never writes down his paces. And I was like, that's insane. I don't know how you could ever do that. And then Alyssa will write down her paces. And I'll be like, this is insane. These are not achievable at all. What the hell are you thinking? Sometimes you forget to take into account the elevation of the certain section or the technicality of the trail in that certain section. You just kind of base it off mileage.
01:07:12
Speaker
Yeah, definitely meeting with your crew beforehand and maybe having somebody else do a sanity check. Um, if you couldn't guess, I could be a little bit nitpicky on things sometimes. So it's kind of nice to have somebody who's a little bit more in the details of, um, picking apart a plan, check your plan, which may seem annoying to the runner, but overall, I think helpful.
01:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, it definitely is. It's good to have someone I've had a lot of success with military people crewing me. They really tend to look at the small details and just be really on. I realize not everyone has that. That choice there that luxury, but definitely having a crew chief that's really detail oriented and is really invested. And back to that that pre race meeting, you really want to go over
01:08:00
Speaker
Expectations, goals, your plan. Multiple goals. Yeah, multiple goals. You want to say, my goal A is to finish within a certain time. My goal B is to not get timed out by the race. Goal C is maybe not yet injured. And knowing where we're at during the race, being like, hey, goal A is no longer achievable. That's OK. We have two other goals we can still meet.
01:08:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And also going through your nutrition plan, going through like, Hey, I'm supposed to hit this aid station at 8pm. That means I need to if I'm not already carrying a headlamp, I need my headlamps charged, I need my clothing for nighttime. So it's really key that they have your gear plan, your nutrition plan, your pacing plan,
01:08:48
Speaker
especially with bigger races, like when you're getting into the 200 plus, we're talking multiple nights. And that goes also back to the whole thing of like, your crew is doing things. Well, I guess we'll get to that. But like your crew is also doing a bunch during the day when they're not actively with you, like they're charging your headlamp, they're charging maybe your watch, if you're like taking a nap or something, they're getting you food.
01:09:15
Speaker
There's so many other pieces. Yeah. Speaking of headlamps, one of the biggest mistakes I've seen a lot of people make is give the person, the runner, a headlamp, the station before they think they're going to need a headlamp. The amount of times I've seen people coming in the dark freaking out because they didn't think they need a headlamp this early, just give them the lightweight one, stuff it in their pack and maybe not even tell them about it, but they can pull it out later.
01:09:40
Speaker
Yeah, so when you are going to crew someone, hopefully the runner has all of the things that they need. But how do you pack for being a crew member? How do you prepare and make sure that you don't get super rundown? Yeah, I guess it's probably easier from like the
01:10:02
Speaker
typical mountaineering mindset where like I almost always have like my layering system like you know a down jacket, a rod-a-proof shell, some pants, some shorts, maybe typically if I'm not running you know a pair of socks that are good. But how unpacking I think for you ends up being like way more important. The other thing that
01:10:26
Speaker
Obviously for myself if I'm not comfortable and okay, then it's hard to take care of somebody else So I guess in that nature if that's what we're going after then, you know Don't be afraid to bring an umbrella the umbrella the Alpine umbrella I think is a very underutilized idea and I'm saying it now and I think some companies should make them Bringing that keeping dry when you're out there so that you can like perform better and not have like one
01:10:50
Speaker
cold hands when the runner comes in to help them change their shoes or socks is pretty important. Not everybody has these kind of luxuries, I understand, and depending on the race style. But if you're typically flying to a race, you rent a car. Perhaps renting the van that you can take the seats out of or a minivan that you can lay all the seats down when there's this little dry enclosed area that the person could crawl into could be helpful.
01:11:19
Speaker
Or you yourself to take a nap. Yeah, totally. I'm pretty ragged at the end of these things.
01:11:25
Speaker
Um, so taking my, an app myself when I can is pretty helpful. Um, or, or like simple things like setting up those little like pop-up tents. You can buy a Walmart for like 20 bucks just to keep the sun off you. People don't understand like the sun will absolutely zap you of energy. So just getting one of those little $20 pop-up tents at, you know, Walmart to like set up the four post tent. So there's something to block the sun off you while you're waiting for your runner coming for your runner to come in and be able to like sit down, either be, you know,
01:11:55
Speaker
stay out of the rain for a second or stay out of the wind and sun for a second can be super helpful in mid-race. Definitely. And also making sure that you're hydrating, that you're eating food. Even if it's not like the highest quality food, just make sure you're getting calories down because chances are if you're accruing for a longer race, you're going to be sleep deprived and you need calories, you probably need caffeine to keep going.
01:12:20
Speaker
And I'm a big fan of there's no such thing as good calories and bad calories. There's only calories. So hit that McDonald's up all you want and keep eating.
01:12:34
Speaker
Crewing, I think, is like, oh my gosh, we're going to get to this at the end. But I feel like you see some crazy things while you are outcrewing someone. What should you be prepared for when you agree to sign up? Absolute breakdown. That's fair. Luckily, I don't have to deal with them that often for myself. But I see people come in just like they just ran through a battlefield.
01:13:04
Speaker
just absolutely destroyed physically, emotionally, sometimes physically just so sick and like vomiting and can be a pretty rough scene. It can hurt if it's your significant other that you're like watching go through this and you kind of like want to pull the plug on them, but they don't want to. I personally luckily have not had to deal with that too much. But yeah, you see a lot of like
01:13:33
Speaker
a lot of blood or broken bones or anything that I've seen during a race. But you definitely see a lot of people in just internal pain that you just can't describe.
Challenges and Strategies in Crewing
01:13:45
Speaker
But you kind of know what they're going through, and you really want to help them. And deep down inside, if you just rest a little, have a little water, relax, you probably get back out there and do this thing that you trained for months to do.
01:14:01
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, like in the rear-air race, I like talked a couple of people into like just sticking with it for a little bit, just because like, you know, they just needed to relax for a minute. You know, the aid stations are there for you to relax, hang out, have some food. You did that for me at the rear-air. Yeah, I did actually. And you were having quite a moment at one of the aid stations. Yeah. Do you remember what you told me? Have some dignity, is what I said.
01:14:28
Speaker
He said, you're doing fine, have some dignity, slow down and keep going. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. Again, unique experience. She was in first and she was like, I'm terrible. I'm having miserable, miserable time. Like, well, you're in first, so why don't you slow down a little bit and try to enjoy the race a little bit more? And so we, uh, you know, walked for a little while and then, uh, turns out her appetite came back and she was able to eat and drink and she was fine afterwards.
01:14:57
Speaker
Shocking. Yeah. Voice of reason, it probably is. Yeah, nevermind. Crewing's all about just being a voice of reason. For some reason, they
01:15:08
Speaker
You ever heard the old adage that as soon as you step in front of a bunch of people and start speaking, your IQ drops a bunch? You should have heard that one. Yeah. I forgot there's actually a more fun saying than what I just said in explaining it. But as soon as they step off the starting line, their IQ drops 50 points. And so all they can think about is finishing the time that they wanted or the place that they wanted. And in reality, it's just like,
01:15:34
Speaker
Okay, why don't we just like slow down and eat some food and you'll probably still finish in that time. But what you're doing right now is like not helping you.
01:15:43
Speaker
That's a gem right there. That's definitely a good one. I can attest that it's like you go into primal mode where you're just like, must finish race, must keep going, must beat head against wall even further. And this is why I have no interest in doing Ultras. Oh, you've done a couple. You're doing one of your own making.
01:16:05
Speaker
later on in the year. What would you say if you could give a new crew person your top three to four key tips? What would they be? Okay. Wow. Put you on the spot. Yeah. Okay. I don't know if I didn't break them down to three or four or five, but first things first is just have a pack in pack out system.
01:16:34
Speaker
So like have a system like I personally use like a military style, I know, flip open flat type bags. So like basically I show up at the spot, I lay down a tarp or a moving pad to like, you know, there's some dry area that's put her feet on.
01:16:52
Speaker
open the flap, put that down, open the bag down, and then open it up completely. And I lay out the thing so that she can see everything available to her. So a lot of people just bring a duffel bag full of shit, and they don't really know what's in it. And then they forget because it's mile 99 of the 150 mile race that they're doing. So putting it all out there so they can see what they have in the bag and be able to choose a candy bag
01:17:19
Speaker
is I think helpful instead of like trying to make the decision like this is what I think I want this is what I think I have visually seeing it and be like that's what I need right now and that includes extra socks extra shoes extra clothes like I personally would never think I would want an extra set of clothes during a race but Alyssa changes her clothes all the time
01:17:43
Speaker
Not in 100 milers, in 100 plus. Yeah. It depends. Yeah. Over 20 hours. Like those like, like Burt's Bees facial wipes. Oh, yeah. Come out like a new person after using one of those. You're brushing your teeth. That I don't understand, but she loves to brush her teeth mid-race. I don't get that at all. So that's probably the thing I would recommend one.
01:18:07
Speaker
it also helps you be organized because you know where everything is. Yeah, that is true. But that's just like another neurotic thing. Like you have to like know everything where everything is and ready to go. Because I've seen it before people come up with like those like, you know, black hole Patagonia duffel bags like 150 liters and it's full of God knows what, whatever the person put in there. Luckily, we live together. So like when we pack, we probably like do it together or plan together. Or I've seen it enough times that I kind of know what's in there. But like,
01:18:35
Speaker
they'll be like, hey, in that bag, there's like this one little gujo I like at the bottom and this one weird recovery Ziploc bag. And the person looking through it has never seen it before, has no idea what they're talking about, and they're just digging through a bag looking for this. And it's like in a different duffel bag this whole time. Yeah, so that's my tip personally for a runner, especially because I've had a couple of other people crew me when Cody wasn't able to go. And it is your job to have everything
01:19:05
Speaker
extremely well labeled. Everything, if you are bringing a duffel bag, should be in some kind of a compartment or some kind of a bag or something labeled. And you should go over where every single thing is with your crew the night before. I'll sit down with my crew and open my bag and be like, this is here, this is here, this is here.
01:19:29
Speaker
this is labeled and they're like, Oh my gosh, that's so helpful. And so like, make your crew's job easy for them. Like do not make it harder. Yeah, no, that makes sense for some for like somebody that's not used to it or new person to the game, like the Ziploc baggies with the Sharpie can save
01:19:47
Speaker
And you can use them for years. Yeah. Like they're the same ones from like, you know, 2018. Yeah. And it's pretty easy to just label something. And I guess, you know, the seconds you save is not that important, but being able to actually find it, you know, without the person getting so anxious that they just want to leave the station is like a pretty big win in comparison to like the other version where like all they want is this one thing and they get so anxious that they have to leave the station. Yeah.
01:20:15
Speaker
The other thing I would say is, it's a great tactic that I wish I used more with Alyssa, but is collecting all the wrappers every single time. Sometimes you have a pacer, usually their job is to take all their wrappers after they eat, if it's allowed, I guess. So you can count what they ate in calories. Alyssa, some people will hide that they're not eating because
01:20:44
Speaker
They just want to keep going and they're not like, Oh, I tend to tell you, I just like don't do anything about it. I'm better now. Um, but like, yeah, some people like, you know, like, Oh, I'm eating fine. And then they're like, okay, give me the wrappers of what you ate. And then they have you like one goo gel and like a 20 mile stretch. And you're like, well, yeah, not eating fine. Just not possible if you had to be eating fine right now.
01:21:06
Speaker
So that's the time to keep them at the aid station, not let them leave until their appetite picks back up and then you make them eat a quesadilla or like a potato or whatever else, the weird crap that they have. Also, pro tip for being a crew, you get your runner a bunch of stuff that they're not going to eat and then you eat it. Okay, as long as you're careful about that.
01:21:28
Speaker
Yeah, we don't want to use resources from the aid station, but I'm sure that you'll your runner will be like, oh, yeah, I want this, this and this. And then yeah, that means they want. Yeah, I guess it's not a plan. It's more like they say they want all these things. They take one bite of the things they say they want. And then you end up eating them. Yeah, because you can't get them back. You can be the vacuum cleaner for the Cody's other nickname is the trash panda. So
01:21:55
Speaker
Yes, he does a good job when I take when I think a quesadilla sounds great and I take one bite of it and then can't really return a one bitten quesadilla back to the aid station. They don't like that so much. Yeah. Awesome. So the last thing I want to ask you as more of a fun story or fun memories, what has been your funniest or most
Memorable Experiences and Teamwork
01:22:24
Speaker
insane crewing experience or moment that you can remember or favorite. Wow, I actually have no idea what my most favorite is. Man, I really don't know. I guess perhaps when it's probably a couple probably and it's always like when you secure the victory, like, which is obviously not everyone's
01:22:54
Speaker
But you secure the goal that the owner wants. So I feel like it's always like something along the lines of, oh, like the person or like the thing we were worried about is over. And it's just basically, as long as you don't get hurt, you're going to meet your goal. So that's happening Moab that happened in the FKT for Pinhody. Those are pretty big, pretty big multi-day events that I really enjoyed.
01:23:20
Speaker
Canyons like apparently it was a big race. I didn't know that at all and I was just not there because I was in a special school that I need to be in and just following along as much as I could online and that was awesome when I found out the year that you wanted and all of a sudden it was like a
01:23:38
Speaker
entry fee or entry to the UTNB race in France. So that was pretty cool. That was a kind of fun surprise. I don't know. I think a lot of times it's fun. It's not fun in the beginning when the person's running their first 100 or first 200 or whatever.
01:23:56
Speaker
Like watching Alyssa finish the hurt 100 in 2019 or whatever it was. 2017. Okay. Yeah, that was terrible. She was just like in pain the whole time and I wasn't having a great time because I was like, this is my girlfriend. This girl's crazy. I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing here. It's my first thing. Crewing. I ended up crewing like some professional runners and it was like kind of fun, but like,
01:24:20
Speaker
Alyssa was keeping up with them the whole time and like was putting herself through a lot of pain because it was like her first 100. Is that the first? It was, it was. Uh, but then it's like really cool with like the, like, you know, mile 90 into a hundred when she's like doing exactly the plan that she wanted to. Um, and she's like, no, I feel all right. I'm a little hungry. Can't wait for some pizza at the end, but I'm doing okay. Like that's a really good feeling.
01:24:45
Speaker
Maybe it's a spouse more than a crew chief or a crew member. But yeah, that's a really relaxing and good feeling. I don't know the craziest story. The craziest story I've ever seen is like, I stand by. I've seen so many people pull up in an aid station and just bawling their eyes out because of headlamps. It's fair. And it's just like, oh my god, what were you thinking? Why didn't you carry a headlamp when you left the aid station at 7 PM?
01:25:14
Speaker
What did you think was going to happen? I haven't really seen it. I've seen lots of people puking. That's for sure. That's pretty standard. Yeah, I don't think there's anything that crazy about it. It's just weird people eating and running and crying. Pretty much sums up ultra running. Weird people eating, running, and crying. Yeah. That's pretty much what it all comes down to.
01:25:41
Speaker
pretty accurate. Yeah, I mean, I can say some of my favorite experiences with you with crew Moab was pretty spectacular. I feel like that came that was that's such a huge endeavor and really just came together in such an awesome way with a really fun group of people. Yeah, I know this, like, this is not what it's not about. But it was really cool. Because there's an AV guy, army guy, Air Force guy,
01:26:10
Speaker
and army. Okay. Yeah. So we had every branch represented there. And it was just really cool to see us all work together. Yeah. Cody had to tell a couple of people to shut up a few times, maybe one in particular, but you know, it's a, it's just so fun to have that power behind you. Just when you have a group of people that believes in you enough to give up a weekend to give up
01:26:37
Speaker
three days to give up a night, it feels really special. Actually, it's not the craziest thing I've seen. One of the hardest things as a crew member, especially if it's your significant other, is to see them in so much pain, but they want to keep going. You just want them to stop and end their pain, but they just want to keep going and purposely put themselves through pain.
01:27:06
Speaker
to achieve something they want to do. And I think that's probably like the craziest thing I've seen is like, people will be like, oh, man, you'll, including myself, you don't look like you're having a great time. And this is no longer fun for either of us.
01:27:21
Speaker
See, Cody says that, and he always says Moab was really hard to watch because I was mostly just sleep deprived. But I think of Moab as like, that was the most fun ever. I had a little blip at mile 50. Actually, mile 50 and mile 80 were a little rough. And then after that, I had a great time. So I keep being like, how did I look that bad? I was having fun.
01:27:46
Speaker
And if you want to see a reference, you can look on either of our Instagram pages, you'll find a collage of her sleeping in the dirt and you'll know what I'm talking about. It's like six or seven pictures of her taking literal dirt naps. Well, I think that that's a great starting point for a lot of people to understand what goes into crewing and ultra. So thank you, Cody, for helping us with that perspective and sharing your experiences.
01:28:14
Speaker
Oh, you're very welcome. And thank you for meeting my lifetime goal of being on the uphill athlete podcast. Oh, I try my best. You're the reason why I got into uphill athletes. So yeah, listen to your spouses, people. Sometimes they know what they're talking about.
01:28:30
Speaker
All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening. We hope that you enjoyed this episode. If you could rate, review, subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, that really helps us to help more people and educate more people about mountain adventures. So have a great day. It's not just one, but a community. We are uphill athletes.