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#17: Meet Robert McKeon Aloe, the author of Engineering Better Espresso: Data Driven Coffee
86 Plays2 years ago
Robert McKeon Aloe, author of the latest coffee book on Kickstarter "Engineering Better Espresso: Data Driven Coffee ".
Robert is also a Senior Video Engineering Incubation Manager at the biggest fruit company Apple. For the last 3 years, he has published more than 200 coffee articles on his blog
https://rmckeon.medium.com
"People think you have to upgrade coffee equipment for better espresso. Better equipment will improve your espresso, but it isn’t the only thing. There are plenty of cheaper ways and methods to improve espresso that can be done incrementally. I wrote a book about improving espresso by incrementally improving each variable of the process using data science with the aim to help every espresso drinker regardless of their home or professional setup."
Robert's new book reached its funding goal in just 7 hours, if you are an espresso lover, make sure you check out this coffee book on Kickstarter now
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/espressofun/engineering-better-espresso-data-driven-coffee/
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the I'm Not A Barista podcast. We're here to talk about all things coffee from industry careers, brewing tips, community support and more with some really incredible people who love coffee as much as you do. We hope their stories inspire you because humanity runs on coffee and together we can empower all the people behind every cup.
00:00:26
Speaker
First, congratulations. Thank you.
Kickstarter Success Story
00:00:29
Speaker
That is your first Kickstarter project, right? Yeah, it went pretty well. It's going pretty well. And then you reach your goal in just seven or six hours? Yeah, seven hours. It went pretty quick. So tell me how you feel about it. I guess I was nervous. I thought I'd have to do quite a bit of work in terms of
00:00:55
Speaker
like reaching out and asking people for favors. And what happened was I started just sharing it with the people that I had built these relationships with people over in coffee over a few years.
00:01:10
Speaker
It worked out pretty well. I started reaching out to people and just sharing the link with them. And these were people that, you know, a lot of people I just talked to over the years because I like their work and I built some relationships with them and everybody's reposted my link. They just threw it out there. And, you know, obviously on Instagram, it's not that big of a deal to repost something for somebody. I mean, in terms of like, it doesn't take you much effort.
00:01:40
Speaker
And so the feedback's been big. And then I think the other big part where I got a lot of backing is one of the Espresso community's home Espresso aficionados on Facebook.
Community Support Impact
00:01:56
Speaker
I've been active with them for a few years and I regularly post my articles there. So I posted it there too.
00:02:03
Speaker
And the feedback was huge. A lot of comments, a lot of discussion, and a lot of people supported the project. I have to say it's a big success for your first project in Kickstarter. And then definitely over the years, you have accumulated a big number of fans, readers who love your articles. So before we jump into detail about your book, could you tell us who you are? What do
Tech Career and Contributions
00:02:28
Speaker
you do? Obviously, my name is Robert McEwen-Aloy.
00:02:33
Speaker
I'm a professional computer vision machine learning data scientist guy. I originally got into the field because I fell in love with autonomous robotics and image processing while I was doing my bachelor's and master's in electrical engineering. And then I went on to do a PhD in computer science and engineering at Notre Dame.
00:02:56
Speaker
And I went into biometrics because at the time, computer vision didn't have a lot of funding. So you went wherever the funding was. So I ended up doing 3D face recognition back starting in 2007. And so I built a 3D face scanner.
00:03:15
Speaker
And then I graduated in 2010. I went to work for a startup company in Virginia that was doing long-range 3D face scanning. And I worked with them for a few years and did a variety of tasks. And then after that, I came to Apple. And I worked on the first generation of the watch. I did wrist detection. And then after we launched the watch, I helped with background heart rate.
00:03:43
Speaker
Around that time, I found out Face ID was going on at Apple and so I switched teams to work on Face ID. And I was asked to do some work to help us better understand how we would experience Face ID on a daily basis. So that started me off on building a team.
00:04:07
Speaker
And a couple of years ago, or two years ago, I started a little prototyping team, or I took over a prototyping team. So I've been doing a lot of prototyping at Apple.
00:04:20
Speaker
So with respect to products, all the Face ID launches I've contributed to, as well as ARKit. And last year, one of the longer term projects I was working on and I was the sponsor for was people detection, which used the LIDAR and the back camera to help blind people socially distance and do some navigation in crowds.
00:04:49
Speaker
So that got launched and that's more, you know, it's not a, there were some news articles about it, but it's not something that you would regularly see unless you knew blind people. But it was an exciting thing to be dipping into that part of the field. So you have been working in the technology field for many years and how does that contribute to your book or your coffee journey?
00:05:14
Speaker
So
Data and Coffee Journey
00:05:15
Speaker
this is contributed because I love data. I apply data to everything in my life. And I have for a number of years. So when I started to really get into coffee, I wanted to improve. Okay, don't sit on the couch. Sit on the counter. It's fine. So when I got into coffee, I
00:05:42
Speaker
started to want to improve shots on a machine. I had found a Lopovoni in my mother-in-law's basement, and I was having difficulty with the shots. And I was really having difficulty with the shots because the machine needed a complete overhaul, and I hadn't had the time to do it. So I started recording some data to see what parameters I could do to get better at it.
00:06:08
Speaker
And then that kind of expanded into this data sheet that I was using for daily shots. And I wasn't intending on publishing data on it. It was really intended just for me. And then what happened is I bought a crew sifter and that started me down this path of doing these staccato layered shots. Before then, I had a couple articles. They were like about basket hole analysis or
00:06:38
Speaker
you know, some highly specialized functions of what I could do with my skills. And then after I made the cicada shot, I started getting deeper and deeper into it. You know, I wasn't publishing regularly. I was getting to that point where I was, but I decided to get more into some experiments and see what I could learn about espresso.
00:07:09
Speaker
And when you look out into the field of what's available online, there's some stuff in forums that you can dig through, but it's not easy to find. You really have to research in there. You can take some courses, but again, the courses cost money, or they're aimed for people that are training to be baristas. They're aiming for shot consistency, not necessarily like an understanding that goes beyond
00:07:39
Speaker
you know, pulling a good shot on your machine. So I just really started I got into that and then the pandemic happened, it gave me a lot more free time to experiment. And so I would just experiment across everything. I'm still experimenting across the I still have experiments going on now. Because I, I
00:07:57
Speaker
don't think I fully understand coffee. I mean, clearly, I understand a lot. I've done a lot of experiments. I've written a lot about it. I've really worked hard to understand coffee. But I think because of the knowledge that's out there, I think this is still pretty big wide open.
00:08:18
Speaker
that we have still a lot to learn. So I decided to, I wanted to start this book at the beginning of the year and then I ended up doing a bunch more work before it and so I'm glad I waited.
00:08:33
Speaker
because I feel like I have a much deeper understanding now. And my hope is that this will open up some of the information available on coffee to where somebody can have a deeper understanding than just, you know, how do I pull up a good shot? Is that like doing a little bit of prep work or is it just buying a more expensive machine?
00:08:56
Speaker
And I'm not a fan of just buying more expensive machines. That will magically fix it. Because every time I bought a new piece of equipment, there's like a...
00:09:10
Speaker
a setup period where I'm not getting good shots and it's bothersome. So I've still worked with this spring lever machine all these years because it's a solid machine, but I haven't quite made that jump that a lot of people will make where they go, they got one nice espresso machine experience and then they jump to like a more expensive setup. Okay, so you're saying that... That is a little rambling.
00:09:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. So you're saying in order to make a good espresso shot at home, a machine, of course, is one of the main factors, but also you need to understand the science, coffee science behind it, right? How to probably make a shot and that there are more knowledge into it. So once you understand how
Espresso Mechanics and Science
00:09:57
Speaker
it works, how espresso works, and then it's easier, you can use your existing machine to make better shots.
00:10:04
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And that experience really solidified for me when I was at my previous company and we had a Mr. Espresso coffee machine and it made crap espresso, but it was the only thing we had. So we just figured out how to make good espresso from it. And it was hard to be more consistent, but it's not that it was impossible to make a good shot from it.
00:10:29
Speaker
So it's kind of, I guess the Espresso Machine Comedy is not so happy to hear about it, right? Because it's all about the business that they would like you to update your gears every year, if you can. Yeah, I suppose. I mean, I think that's why that's why the question of like, is flat burr better than conical?
00:10:51
Speaker
No grinder company wants to answer that because the answer should be just by both. So I think every level of machine has its benefits. It's just a question of like, do you absolutely need to upgrade?
00:11:11
Speaker
Or some people don't want to have, they're like, my setup isn't great, but I don't have money to buy a better setup. I think there's some in between there where you could get better coffee before you end up doing that eventual upgrade.
00:11:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's so cool that for many people, Espresso Machine, they are really expensive, actually, if you compare them with a regular home grinder, right? Espresso Machine at home costs like 10 times more, probably. So it's a big investment. But just like you said, if you can learn the knowledge behind it, and then you can instantly improve your shot, that's just a brilliant idea. So could you tell us more about the book, what we can learn, what we can rate in this book?
00:11:58
Speaker
So the book is split up into four sections. So I talk about like before you even do the shot, so like coffee, the kind of gear, the equipment. Then I talk about preparing the shot. So distributing the grinds, tamping, other techniques like doing layered shots. Then I go into talking about the shot itself, which I talk about pre-infusion, pressure, temperature,
00:12:27
Speaker
And then after the shot, a lot of it, to me that the shot doesn't end after you drink it. If you really want to improve your espresso, you have to understand what went well and what didn't go well. Because if you taste the shot and you're like, oh, it's a shot, it doesn't help you.
00:12:47
Speaker
But if you look in there and say, okay, I had a bad shot and why, what can I use? And I think there's actually quite a bit of evidence you can have, even if you don't have special tools to just look at the bottom of the puck. Or if you have a bottomless portafilter, like taking a video and just you can kind of see if there's a particular problem area.
00:13:13
Speaker
So that's what I end up talking about. And then that's a feedback loop. So that informs you on your next shot. And hopefully this process proves your shot.
00:13:25
Speaker
Great. So before people can get a hand on the book, is there anything quick and short I can share with audience today? For example, I read about the special part of the cattle shop. What's so special about that? How we can do that at home? So the tricky part with that is you need a sifter. However, if you have some of the higher end grinders, you can emulate it with doing three grind sizes. But
00:13:54
Speaker
I think that one of the derivatives from that is the staccato tamp, which is something I started working on right before the pandemic because I had a bunch of coffee that I was making that was a darker roast. So I was putting it in milk anyways, but I was still making it from my machine. And I wanted to make sure I got enough grinds in the basket. Sometimes you see these baskets are overfilled.
00:14:21
Speaker
So what I would do is I'd put half the grinds in, I would tamp, and then put the other half in. And I figured out that what that's doing is simulating what's going on with the staccato shot where you have a bottom layer that's denser.
00:14:36
Speaker
In staccato, it's denser because you've sifted the coffee in it and it's finer grinds. In the tamp technique, it's denser because it has a stronger tamp. So you put half the grinds in first, tamp it, then put the next half of the grinds in.
00:14:54
Speaker
Now in this though, one of the tricks is you have to tamp light. So I usually use a scale when I tamp and gently push on there so I can measure the pressure. So I only go to like three to 400 grams. I know it's not a lot. It freaks people out. You can obviously play around with this variable. I think that's really the key is. You want to play around with some of these variables and see what works best for you.
00:15:21
Speaker
So the bottom layer should be tamped harder than the top layer. Okay. And that has proved to give better shots. And that's something that anybody can do at home, any barista could do right now. You don't need any special equipment to do that. It's just a will to experiment.
00:15:46
Speaker
Yeah, that doesn't sound so difficult, right? You just grind. If you don't have a sifter, you can just grind different sizes and then temp it together and try. So what is the characteristic of this special method? If you compare with a regular shed? For a staccato?
00:16:01
Speaker
So a couple of things are going on. One is that because you put the fines on the bottom, they end up sealing up the puck. So I have some videos on Instagram and YouTube where you can see the bottom of the shot and the water comes out very fast and then stops.
00:16:29
Speaker
and then starts flowing again. So this gives its own way of pre-infusion, and it's a little bit different than normal. And it typically suggests a longer pre-infusion. But part of what's going on is on the bottom layer, because they're really fine, they're releasing less gas, because most of their gas was released during grinding.
00:16:56
Speaker
that the gas doesn't get in the way of extraction. So at the bottom layer, you have a more even extraction. And same with the other two layers. It's more even across the layer because all the particle sizes are the same. And then the other component that's helping is that water is going to extract from the fines at a faster rate than coarser grinds.
00:17:23
Speaker
So by the time you get through like your if you do like 22 grams in
00:17:30
Speaker
If you get like 22, by the time you get to 22 grams out, you've extracted most of the bottom layer. And you've also allowed the top layer to have more contact time with the water, which means that the top layer will have extracted higher than usual. And so when you normally have the grounds in the basket mixed around, the fines at the top are going to be over extracted, the fines at the bottom are going to be under extracted.
00:18:01
Speaker
While with this method you're separating that out. So the main complication though is doing the sifting.
00:18:12
Speaker
And right now we have this gap in technology where a piece of technology that like an automated sifter could change the game and make this more available to people. Because it's a game of patience to sift. Usually it takes me about five minutes to sift. But if you're new and you don't know if this is going to work or not, you might get frustrated and you might not see where the benefit is.
00:18:42
Speaker
So I think that's why there has been a hesitancy for people to try it or, you know, experiment with it. Yeah, it sounds easy, but just like you said, if you do it at home, probably you have to spend more time shifting coffee and then try them out in terms of flavor.
00:19:02
Speaker
How about the shot? How is it different from regular shots? So you're extracting in a faster... You're extracting the same amount in a shorter amount of liquid. So usually what you would extract for a 2 to 1, you can extract closer to a 1 to 1. So usually 1 to 1, 1.2 to 1 or something like that. And that means that the flavor is much more intense.
00:19:32
Speaker
It's easier to even add a little bit of water if you want to tease out some of the flavors. And if you want to do a fair comparison to a longer extraction, you should probably do that.
Book Release and Digital Plans
00:19:42
Speaker
But to me, it's been just a very intense flavor, like a very big mouthfeel and like a sweetness that I hadn't experienced with regular shots.
00:19:55
Speaker
That's very interesting. Tell us about when we can have this book. I put May on there, and I have a first draft done, and I'm working with an editor and a graphic designer. I think the main challenge is getting into the printing queue.
00:20:21
Speaker
and then dealing with shipping. So as everyone's experienced, we have this shipping problem in the world. So that's the biggest unknown right now. But aside from that, the book is, I have a first draft, and I'm in the mode of editing graphics and...
00:20:46
Speaker
having an editor make sure it's a good read. Because that's what I want to do. I want to get this to be a really great experience. Because a lot of this information is already on my blog. You can go read it now, but it's also not in an organized way. So similar to Espresso, I'm taking a lot of information and I'm extracting the best of it to put into this book.
00:21:13
Speaker
Do you have a plan to publish a digital version? So like you mentioned, internet shipping could be a problem. Yes. So there's already an add-on for the digital version, but I plan to have a new option unlock if we hit 20,000, which right now we're at $8,300. So we're doing pretty well.
00:21:42
Speaker
So quite a few people have expressed interest in the digital. I just want to make sure that I don't want to charge extra for the digital that you typically see. Usually digital copies are on the cheaper end.
00:21:58
Speaker
Great. Thank you so much. So where we can find your blog, if people are interested in reading your article first. So there's a link in my Kickstarter. My Kickstarter has all like each, I have some examples of my writings and each one of them has a link to it. And then I believe in my profile, it's also there. So really, if you search my name and espresso, you're going to find it pretty quick.
00:22:26
Speaker
I
Online Coffee Writings
00:22:27
Speaker
think that the trouble is that there's a lot to parse through. I have like close to 200 articles on espresso. Well, that's a lot. It takes a while to read all of them so the thing is better to get the book. Yes, definitely. And congratulations again to your big success.
Closing Remarks
00:23:03
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to this I'm Not A Barista episode. Subscribe to this podcast and follow us on Instagram at I Am Not A Barista for more empowering vibes and true coffee stories that connect you with coffee lovers around the world. You're a part of our global community where we celebrate baristas and their craft in everything that we do.
00:23:13
Speaker
Thank you very much and thanks for your help.