Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S3E4: Meet Serafim Zoukas from Greece, psychologist and passioante coffee enthusiast
126 Plays1 year ago
In our latest episode, we interviewed Serafim Zoukas. He is a full-time psychologist, a father of a seven-year-old, and an independent Brewers Cup competitor who is passionate about homebrewing.
We were impressed by Serafim's dedication to his craft and his willingness to compete with coffee professionals. He serves as an excellent example to his daughter and to all of us.
Serafim's love for coffee goes beyond just drinking it. He has honed his brewing skills and competed in the Brewers Cup.
Despite being a full-time psychologist, Serafim has found the time to pursue his passion for brewing and has even achieved success in the competition circuit. He is an inspiration to anyone who has a passion outside of their day job.
During our interview, Serafim advised anyone looking to pursue their passions to "do what you love, and enjoy the process." This message reminds us to prioritize joy and fulfillment in our pursuits.
Overall, we were honored to have Serafim on our show and are grateful for the insight he provided on pursuing one's passions and stepping outside of one's comfort zone.
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/serafimzoukas/
Read more coffee stories on
https://notabarista.org/
Order Coffee Wristbands and support I'M NOT A BARISTA's charity work
https://notabarista.org/product/notabarista-coffee-wristbands-2023/
Recommended
Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Mission
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the I'm Not A Barista podcast. We're here to talk about all things coffee from industry careers, brewing tips, community support and more with some really incredible people who love coffee as much as you do. We hope their stories inspire you because humanity runs on coffee and together we can empower all the people behind every cup.
Meet Serafin Dzokas
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello, welcome to Amnaud Barista podcast. I'm your host, Miki. Today's guest is Serafin Dzokas from Grace. He's a home borough, a psychologist, and he won the third place of the 2022 Atlantic Boroughs Cup Championship in Grace. As a not a barista, he also represented Grace and competed on the 2022 Melbourne World Boroughs Cup Championship. I hope you like this episode. I like Serafin's coffee story.
00:00:58
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the show.
Balancing Psychology and Coffee
00:01:01
Speaker
How are you? I'm very well. Thank you for having me. Um, I was looking forward to it actually. Um, I think the, I think what really clicked is the sort of standout name you guys have called not a barista. And that, that completely applies to my situation.
00:01:20
Speaker
So what is your situation? Are you a barista or you're not? I am absolutely not a barista. I can see you now. Oh, I love the hat, man. That's a cool hat. Thank you. Thank you. It finally works. So I am not a barista. I am a home brewer.
00:01:39
Speaker
I am absolutely in love with coffee. I have been for a long, long time. My profession is, I'm a psychologist. I work during the day in a school, which is where you'll find me right now. I'm in a room, I'm on a break. And then in the afternoons, I have my own private practice as a therapist.
00:02:02
Speaker
So that's what I do as a profession. And lately, over the past two years, maybe more than two years, I started to do SCA seminars, just exploring speciality coffee, getting into tasting, digging a little deeper,
00:02:33
Speaker
Yeah, so I am not a barista. I'm just a coffee lover who managed to get into competition. It's been fun. It still is fun. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. I hope you all got fired because you're using your work time doing a podcast, right? I structure my time. I have the flexibility too. And at the moment, the children are on a break as well. So I've got the time.
00:03:01
Speaker
Great, great. So I don't worry about that anymore. Alright, thanks for sharing it. It's very interesting background that you're a psychologist and then you are a homeborough or a homeborough or a coffee lover. Coffee lover. Because you're not pro in a coffee, right? You're a home barista, whatever you want to call it. But yeah, I'm not into, you know, I'm not working for a living with coffee.
00:03:27
Speaker
So I think that helps to view it in a different way as well. Yes. Maybe. Yes. Definitely. You deserve a hat. The one I have now. Yes, please. I love it. Behind it, I'm a psychologist. That's right. Right. So tell us about how you start your journey. Like when did you start coffee journey? Did you start coffee earlier than your profession or later?
Greek Culture and Coffee Influence
00:03:53
Speaker
Yeah, I probably started drinking. Well, look, coffee, if you don't sort of aren't aware of the Greek culture, it's a big thing in Greece. You know, it's a way to get people
00:04:09
Speaker
Around you know around the table it's a way to communicate it's a way to express yourself i guess it's a big thing here you know in terms of culture so it's always been. Involved in my life in one way or the other just in sort of different you know in a different sort of ways so i grew up with coffee in my house because my parents were both big coffee consumers.
00:04:40
Speaker
Mom was more filter and dad was more traditional, a brick you would call Greek or Turkish coffee or whatever you want to call it, a brick coffee as well. Is that still a thing that people, you know, don't know what to call it because people are fighting for the name? Yeah, I guess. You know, I'm sure you get frowns if you call it Turkish coffee in Greece and then you'd probably get frowns if you call it Greek coffee in Turkey or wherever.
00:05:07
Speaker
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you call it, it break coffee. You choose to call it whatever, as long as it tastes good. I don't care what it's called. So it was around at home and I started drinking it from an early age.
00:05:29
Speaker
you know, more milk based when I was younger, I suppose. And then I started to, you know, consume it in different ways. You probably have heard, if not of cold coffee here in Greece. So now they've got freddo, which is very trendy and popular. But back then it was frappe.
00:05:55
Speaker
which isn't that popular now, or you don't find it in the sort of more trendy traditional coffee places you would go to. But if you don't know what frappe is, it's basically instant coffee that's been blended in like this special blender that they have. It forms lots of cream and then you can put milk in it or sugar or whatever you want.
00:06:18
Speaker
So, you know, we all go down that route as Greek coffee drinkers. So, yeah, it's always been in my life. I just chose to take it into a different direction now, I suppose. So you started your coffee journey as a baby, like many Italian, right? Yeah, yeah, you could say that.
00:06:38
Speaker
I don't ever think it was like put in a milk bottle to give to me. But no, it's been around. It's been in my life for as long as I can remember.
00:06:52
Speaker
So as we know that you start your competition, professional competition, a couple of years ago. So how did that started? So one day you just like, I can be the world champion, right? Because I'm a good psychologist. I'm not nervous on the stage.
00:07:10
Speaker
Um, so there are many, many things actually that, that contributed to that.
Curiosity and Coffee Competitions
00:07:16
Speaker
Um, I think the first was that I'm, I'm just curious. So it's like, how far can I take it? What's the next step? What can I do now? Um, let's try it. Why not? I like to keep an open mind about things. I don't, I think one of the main arguments and main things that I want to bring up here is do you have to be a coffee professional?
00:07:39
Speaker
to be able to do what other coffee professionals do or step up onto a world stage. I mean, do you have to be a professional to do that? And if you do have to be a professional to do that, are we limiting the market?
00:08:01
Speaker
why can't we open it up more? It's just questions that I have in mind that I, obviously I would love to hear other people, you know, in their views about it. But I think that was one of the main aims of, you know, this chat as well, just to see, why not? But how I got into competition basically was, yeah, two years ago,
00:08:24
Speaker
nearly two years ago, after brewing lots of coffee at home. I just got to the point where I really felt that the filter coffee that I brew at home is a lot better than the filter coffee that I will drink in cafes.
00:08:41
Speaker
I just felt that it was, you know, good enough. Maybe a lot of times even better. So I said, okay, let's see, why not try a competition? So Brewer's Cup was around the corner in Greece and I just said, right, I have no expectations whatsoever. It's not about, for me, it wasn't about, you know, winning or earning a place. It's like, oh, how far can I go?
00:09:08
Speaker
At the end of the day, if it doesn't really go well, at least I'll get some feedback. I'll know if the work I've done so far is paying off or what can I do? I just want to become better. I decided to sign up for the Brewers Cup here in Greece. It went well. It went above any expectation I had. I managed to get third place.
00:09:37
Speaker
which was, I didn't, I really didn't expect it. I thought it'd be cool to get through to finals and just, you know, perform my open service twice. Why not? But third place was great. So that was my first competition and how I got into it. I just said, why not? Let's try it.
00:09:57
Speaker
Great. So can I stop you right there? I want to know how was your experience as a home borrower competing with a professional? On your first conversation, you won in the third place. How did it happen? How did you feel? How did you prepare everything? Yeah. So I think I had guidance from the sort of roasters that I would purchase coffee from.
00:10:24
Speaker
because they were into competition as well. So I did have a professional viewpoint of, let's say, sensory information and how to approach the Brewers Cup form. So having that in mind, I then had to challenge myself to be able to fit the form and match it.
00:10:50
Speaker
That was one step, but it was sensory. Not so much brewing skill, but mostly sensory. Understanding the beverage and the result, interpreting it, and becoming better at doing that. Which I'm still doing. I'm still trying to get better at that.
00:11:13
Speaker
So I think that was the main thing that I tried to improve on is understanding what they ask for in competition, which can be a lot different to what you would expect that like just brewing coffee at home, what they look for on a competition form is different. Having a nice presentation
00:11:36
Speaker
as well, which helps. I brought my background of psychology and home brewing on stage. And that really sort of caught attention because it was something fresh and new here. So I think that helped. It must have helped as well. It must be. So tell us about your professional background. How did it help? In what way?
00:12:02
Speaker
So yeah, what I did was I sort of had to think of, right, okay, I have a 10 minute presentation, apart from giving coffee knowledge, I also have to sort of, you know, keep myself and who I am in this.
00:12:16
Speaker
and not drift away. I felt that that would become a very typical generic presentation that you do see, which is very good. But I said, how can I bring myself into it? So what I thought about is how do I work as a professional and how does that relate to coffee?
00:12:36
Speaker
And there are three things that I found in common when I work with coffee and when I sort of work with people as well, is that I have to get to know who I'm working with. I have to get to know people's backgrounds. So that's relative to the coffee that I'm dealing with, like where is it coming from, origin, process, et cetera, et cetera. And then the second point was,
00:13:04
Speaker
I always pay attention to the setting, what goes on in our session. There are variables that I have to be aware of within the environment. When I'm with a client, it's also observing the client. How is that client reacting to the environment around it, being in a person's office? How is he feeling or is she feeling? There are factors in the environment that you want to pay attention to.
00:13:32
Speaker
was related to my brewing device, like my temperature, my dripper, the material, the grind size, all these variables that I'm trying to manipulate and control. And then the third, I think the most important are that I have to pay attention to people's narratives and what they tell me, like through their eyes, their stories, right?
00:14:02
Speaker
And I then applied that to what the coffee is trying to tell us through its narrative, which is basically its flavor profile. Like what is it telling us? So like in the aroma, it's giving us this, it's telling us this, right? Through its flavor, it's telling us this. And that's how I brought my profession into like what I do with coffee, what I know how to do with coffee.
00:14:29
Speaker
Can I imagine that because you're a psychologist, you know, barista on the stage, they see judges, they think, oh, there are judges, but then you're on a stage, you're, there are my patients.
Journey to Melbourne Competition
00:14:43
Speaker
Yeah. I think, I think lots of people see judges as really like scary people who they have to like do a lot to impress. At the end of the day, there are people and like, um,
00:14:59
Speaker
We have to remember, and this was a big lesson learned from my experience on the world stage in Melbourne, was that these judges, they do it because they love it. They don't do it because they get paid. They don't do it because it's their job. They take time off their work.
00:15:20
Speaker
or their family, to come, to travel all across the world, maybe, to just sit in front of you for 10 minutes. And while you spill your heart out to them and try to serve coffee,
00:15:36
Speaker
They take time off their busy schedules to come. It's how you view them. They're not scary people. They're like normal people who really love what they do. And they took time off to come and see you. And we have to be really grateful for that. That's definitely something I took from Melbourne when it comes to judges and who they are. And I'm really grateful that they do what they do.
00:16:03
Speaker
Thank you for sharing. Tell us about experience in Melbourne. I couldn't be there, but we have our volunteers there and on stage and working there as volunteers. And so it was an amazing event, as they say. But tell us more how you experienced. It was one of the most amazing experiences I've had. It was extremely unexpected.
00:16:27
Speaker
Because I, as I said earlier, I got third place for Brewers Cup. I didn't win it. I wasn't the national champion here in Greece. And I still am not the national champion in Greece. And I don't want to take that away from our national champion who has done an amazing job to get there.
00:16:46
Speaker
I think for personal reasons, he couldn't go to Melbourne and that for other reasons, second place couldn't go, so it came to me. And this came to me approximately a month and a half to two months before competition. And I honestly, when I got the phone call, I went, you're shit.
00:17:11
Speaker
I mean, I didn't remember I won the champion, right? Yeah. Come on. Are you joking now? Are you rubbing it in or something? But I then thought, wow, this is what I got into. I got into competition to do this. I was watching YouTube a year before coffee competitions and like, oh, look at what they're doing.
00:17:40
Speaker
just just a viewer on YouTube watching world coffee competitions and then next year there I am do you know what I mean it's like what like I'm trying to take all that in but Melbourne was amazing one because I've never I've never traveled that far in my life that's a that's a long trip
00:18:00
Speaker
And two, I got to meet all these wonderful people who I would view online, like lots of competitors who I really admire and sort of try to mimic things that they do and the great techniques that they come up with, or the recipes that I try to replicate that they do, which probably 90% of the time I don't manage to replicate.
00:18:29
Speaker
they do for many various reasons. But I really tried to enjoy it as much as I could. I'm not going to lie and say that I enjoyed it to the maximum because I really felt lots of stress as well of like, oh, you know, come on, you got to do the best you can. And you came all the way over here. But there was a big side to me, like a kid in a candy store.
00:18:58
Speaker
I love it, rather than focusing 100% on what I'm supposed to do. But I had a great time. It was a great trip. Met lovely people.
00:19:08
Speaker
Uh, learned a lot. I'm just building on that now. I felt that I could have said, right. I got third place for Greek brews cup. I went to worlds and now I can hang my hat and say, forget it. I've done it. I don't need to do it again. I can go home and brew some coffee now, but no, it's like I managed to do that. And now I think I have to, I have to build upon that.
00:19:33
Speaker
Like, uh, and, uh, and yeah. So what, what do your family think about my family? Yeah. Like they're like, Hmm, we'll let daddy go. Right. Your daughter says we'll let him go because he couldn't have a good time. But we didn't want him to do this for like a professional one. Yeah. That's, that's a, that's a good question. I think my, my family being my, my, uh, my mother, uh, my mother thought I'm nuts. I'm like, what are you doing?
00:20:03
Speaker
Um, but I think my, my daughter, I have a seven year old daughter and, um, I think a big message that I wanted to send out to my, my, my child as well is do, do what you love, enjoy it. And it doesn't, it doesn't matter what it is like.
00:20:22
Speaker
I studied psychology and I decided to be a therapist, but does that mean that's what I am only? No. There are other things that you love and you want to do. When you love something, do it. It doesn't matter what it is. If it's dance, art, whatever you choose to do in life, as long as you love it, then it pays off.
00:20:48
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, there are times that I love coffee a lot more. It's like a magical thing to do. But yeah, I think that's another conversation of like, why wouldn't I do it as a profession? I don't know if I'd do it as a profession, but I think that it would maybe possibly take away the whole magic behind what I'm doing now, right? I view it, it's what I said earlier, I view it very in a completely different way than I think a professional would.
00:21:17
Speaker
Like I view it as something magical, romantic, do whatever you want with it. But, and then I think of myself being behind a bar brewing espresso or Fred all day long. And I find that completely boring in a way, because it's not like, you know what I mean? It's not, I'm brewing filter for myself and experimenting in any way I want. Yeah. I think with your background,
00:21:47
Speaker
It's best to be a bartender, right? Instead of barista, because people go to coffee shop, they don't really drink much. They don't really talk much with a barista. They get a coffee, get an order, and they just run away or I see someone quietly reading a book. If you go to the bar, the bartender always talk a lot and the customer are willing to talk. I think there'll be a better fit for you if you one day want to leave what you're doing right now.
00:22:13
Speaker
Yeah, I get I get I might get a barista saying what you're saying is nonsense and it's a great job and I completely respect that. I'm sure there are people who love doing that right now where I am and what I'm doing. I'm you know, I can't picture myself doing it like behind a bar professionally 100%. I don't know. It couldn't change. Oh, you know, always you have to keep an open mind. You never know what could happen.
00:22:41
Speaker
But I just love the fact that I can view it and enjoy it like I do now. And it doesn't limit me to what I want to do. I'll give you a very simple example. If you work for a company, right?
00:22:57
Speaker
then you're sort of limited in what you can use. Like you're behind a brand name. You sort of have to use that, right? Like if you want to go to competition, you have to use what that company has available to you. Whereas what I have is the freedom to try coffees from different roasters and select what I want rather than because I work for that roastery, that's what I have to do. And that's great.
00:23:27
Speaker
I love it because it just opens more doors. I have more resources that I can select and choose to use the way I want and that's great.
00:23:42
Speaker
I think that's an interesting point. But I also think, OK, you're an independent competitor, in that case, a home poorer. So you have all the freedom you want because you are not limited what to use, what to what coffee to use. But my question to you will be, how do you get the sponsors? And how do you arrange the trip to Australia for the competition, the hotels, the tickets? Do you recover everything yourself? Or you have somehow find some sponsors. So how did you do that?
00:24:11
Speaker
I think most baristas, they are concerned about this because it's a big expense for most people. Yeah, 100%.
Challenges for Home Brewers
00:24:20
Speaker
Everything I did up until competition.
00:24:25
Speaker
Apart from, I mean, the SCA Greece paid for the ticket to Melbourne and back. That was covered, as well as my accommodation, and I'm extremely grateful for that.
00:24:42
Speaker
But in terms of coffee that you use and equipment, etc., most of the things that I bought on my own and the roasters that I competed with helped me a lot with equipment, whether it was lending me stuff for competition, etc.
00:25:03
Speaker
But over the years, I've bought tons of stuff for sort of home use that I could bring in. But truth be told, after Melbourne, what I started doing is, and this is another question that comes up, is if I wasn't on the world stage, how much support would I be able to get?
00:25:27
Speaker
So what I did is when I came back from Melbourne, I sent emails to companies saying, you know, this is who I am. This is what I've done. I'm continuing my competition journey, but I'm on my own and I need support and help. And there were two, three companies who were very kind and said,
00:25:50
Speaker
We will support you and what do you need? And they sent me equipment. And that was huge help for my future competition journey, which is continuing. The question here is, if I hadn't been on the world stage and I had sent that email out, would I have gotten that response?
00:26:09
Speaker
That's that's the problem. Most baristas without before they becoming famous or before before they're getting a national title when they are looking for sponsors, someone can help them. It's always difficult. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's something that definitely needs to be heard, you know, addressed thought of is how can we support more people
00:26:35
Speaker
who, for example, are home brewers. There are tons of home brewers out there. I follow lots of people online who have these amazing ideas of brew devices, etc., which I've never seen before. I haven't seen professionals use, or I see some professionals use later on.
00:26:59
Speaker
And some of these guys, they probably have lots of talent. Is it resources and funds that limit them? And is there something that can support that? Or are roasteries or other coffee professionals willing to support people for competition?
00:27:24
Speaker
whatever that may be, I don't know. If you want to do it, then we will supply you with equipment or help you out if you maybe take our coffee on stage. I don't know how it would work, really. I don't know how it would work. But I think that that is something to think about, of how we can support more non-professionals to that because it is a huge expense.
00:27:52
Speaker
It's a huge expense. I mean, you need at least, you know, you need two kettles. I would say you need three or four brewing devices. If you want to have a spare, then you need scales. You need this is just this is for brewers. I'm not even going to go into barista. Do you know what I mean? This is for brewers. Hand grinders, as you well know, there are so many things that you need. It's a huge expense.
00:28:20
Speaker
Exactly. There's most young competitors that are facing the same issues and sometimes because of the money issue that we cannot see those talented guys compete on the stage. But it's really great to see many, many homegirls recently, recent years, we see that they are competing on an international stage with the professionals and they got good results.
00:28:44
Speaker
And just like you are one of the great example there. I think this is great that we don't limit this stage for professionals. If you're good, then you're good, right? It reminds me, some people ask,
00:29:01
Speaker
ask a question often like do you need to have SCA certificates to be a person or do you have those advanced course so you are a good person and then I tell them I don't think so you know a lot of people don't watch YouTube videos they are way better than person but they're just home for us so it makes sense
00:29:24
Speaker
Another example is for preliminaries, at least they did preliminary rounds here in Greece this time round. If you wanted to take part in preliminaries, you didn't have to have an SCA membership, right? But then if you go through to nationals, you have to have an SCA membership.
00:29:48
Speaker
which means that you have to pay 100-some whatever to then join SCA. Now, okay, that's not the biggest expense. It is supporting SCA, I suppose, and that's a good thing. But again, is that a limiting factor or not? I don't know. Again, you sort of raised that.
00:30:12
Speaker
I would like to think that that money is going towards SCA and hopefully that is going out to things that they need as an organization. Of course. I just want to bring this topic probably a little bit more sensitive, since you said there's nothing we cannot talk about. I just want to talk about SE thing. I'm not part of it. I never took their courses. And the funny thing is most of the time I hear people complain about SE how they are not really doing their job well.
00:30:40
Speaker
And all people praise how rich they could get if you're a part of the SCA in your nation. They probably got rich within the few years because the coffee market grows to get a lot of money coming in.
00:30:54
Speaker
Okay, I don't like SCA personally, we can cut it off later if you don't like this part in the podcast. Because what I see earlier, SCA banned all Russian bursts as coffee people. I don't know how many of those guys go to the war with Ukraine and then fight for their country or whatever, but I don't think much, not many bursts as they are
00:31:16
Speaker
part of the political game, you know, but there are the victim of this thing. But if the double standards of SES exist, they ban certain countries because they don't serve their shareholders interest. Let's say that they should ban America too, right? I'm gonna say
00:31:34
Speaker
This should ban the uk dish ban in germany or whoever started one in foreign countries they should ban all the prices from those countries but barely they are not doing that so i'm really against i see in this case because they are having this double standard which really.
00:31:51
Speaker
I think they're in their repetition. But of course, it's all of the topic. It just that it reminds me. I see it. No, no, no. I'm like, I, I completely I understand what you're saying. The other day, actually, I was speaking to a friend. It happened to be about like EuroLeague basketball wasn't even about, you know, like coffee. But I brought it in because, well, you know how Russian teams are banned from like EuroLeague because I was looking at the standings.
00:32:18
Speaker
And I was like, well, CSKA Moscow, where are they? Like, they're always big times. And then my friend reminded me, he's like, don't you remember? They're all banned. And I went, what? And then again, and then I thought, hold on Russian competitors.
00:32:35
Speaker
for coffee, same thing, you know, banning this banning that I think we just like, my personal opinion is banned politics from this, you know, exactly.
Politics in Coffee Competitions
00:32:45
Speaker
Why do we have to bring politics into sports? Why do and honestly, sports, I stopped watching most sports. Now, you know, I don't watch football anymore, because it's hugely just politics.
00:32:58
Speaker
And it's more to do with money and other things rather than the game of football. I don't want to see that happen to coffee. Do you know what I mean? It has to be, get politics out of things like this. People are people. It's got nothing to do with political battles, et cetera.
00:33:20
Speaker
Well, unless they are activists, then it could be a little bit different. But I think most of the coffee people are nice. As far as we know, we interview more than 200 people around the world. And most of the coffee people, they are the best ones, actually. You know, you see coffee shops and you see birds with tattoos, long hairs or different hair colors.
00:33:38
Speaker
They look so cool that you're kind of intimidated to talk to them. But once you talk to them, you talk about coffee, they become your friend instantly. I think that's the power of coffee. Whenever we're in trouble, we go to coffee shops and we talk about coffee, we talk about their job, ask their situations. And people open their heart to seeing those people cannot compete on a stage because the country issue, the political issue, and then they have nothing to do with. That's really, really sad. I mean, that's really, really bad.
00:34:08
Speaker
It is very sad. I completely agree with people in the coffee industry being wonderful and how it brings us together. I completely saw that in Melbourne, on that world stage, of how people were brought together because they just love one common thing. There was a thought that crossed my mind
00:34:34
Speaker
And that happened in melbourne is that are we competing against each other or are we just in this together. And the reason i say that is because i had competitors who i'm supposedly up against who came and gave me minerals for water.
00:34:53
Speaker
Uh, they tried, you know, my coffee and gave me advice. They, you know, others borrowed, uh, drippers or a kettle from someone else. And, and that was, you know, like an amazing thing to see and experience because in my, I have, I'm lucky to have experienced a national competition and a world competition in a very short amount of time.
00:35:18
Speaker
And they are two completely different things. Nationals are extremely competitive to the point where it's like, and I understand why you want to win, right? But I have heard various things about nationals and how people can become so competitive that they become cruel and nasty. And that's not what we're in this for. And in world, it was nothing like that.
00:35:46
Speaker
How come? They proved themselves already, right? I'm top of my country, so I'm here already, so we can be friends. Maybe. Maybe it is because we're here now. We're winners. Let's enjoy it. But that is a shame. You should enjoy Nationals too. You don't have to be a winner.
00:36:09
Speaker
you can just enjoy the process and have fun. Yeah, that's another actually another thing. You know, my, again, I sort of like I don't know if this helps or not. Again, you know, the message that I give to my daughter is, is it about winning all the time? Or is it about
00:36:27
Speaker
Taking part and becoming better and enjoying what you do yeah that's another thing cuz when i came back from belburn she said did you bring the trophy i knew it you know i wasn't i mean i gotta be realistic but it's not about bringing back the trophy it's about you know it was a great experience and.
00:36:46
Speaker
and other things that you can take
Fair Compensation for Coffee Judges
00:36:48
Speaker
from it. That's something else. Going back to what you said about SCA and all these other things, there is one thing that I will happily bring up, and that's I have heard. I have heard, I hope it's not true everywhere, but I have heard that judges don't get paid to do what they do.
00:37:07
Speaker
They have to fund everything themselves. And that, for me, is something that has to change. It has to change. I don't know anything about that, if they got paid or not. Because I see this is supposed to be an NGO and PO, I guess, right? Yeah. But then they get a lot of money coming in because the courses, because the certificates, because the competition sponsorships. But of course, judges are important. But I guess, like you said, most judges, they are flying.
00:37:37
Speaker
for the law for coffee instead of the money, because most judges, they have their own job. You take them one week from their job, probably they will lose more money than the money you give to them, I think. But you definitely brought a very interesting topic about the competition status, like the situation on the national level and international level, based on your professional background.
00:38:06
Speaker
Can you analyze what's the reason or how we can bring those friendly competition environment and vibe from the international level right to your national level so we can make everybody enjoying the process of competing and learning from chat instead of like I gotta kill you because I'm better or your big friend.
00:38:28
Speaker
off the top of my mind? I mean, it's a lot more complex than the answer I'm going to give because I think, you know, you have to dig a little deeper into what people think about what is winning to them and, you know, why are they doing this? What are they in it for? Like, you know, what are they trying to gain from it?
00:38:46
Speaker
Is it like stature? Is it proving something to people or proving something to themselves? That is one big question. I think every part, every, every
00:39:03
Speaker
every competitor has to ask themselves before they join a competition, why am I doing it and who am I doing it for? And the second thing that I think, again, makes me a lot different than others is are you competing independently or are you competing for a company? And when you're competing for a company, is that company going to support you even if you don't do well?
00:39:28
Speaker
Or is it not going to go well for your professional career after that? Now, I can't answer that 100% because I'm not in it professionally. But I think that the competitors who are in it because they've got logo, brand logo behind them and this big company have a lot more pressure. Definitely.
00:39:51
Speaker
And that changes the game and the market and everything else. And it becomes a game of companies rather than brewers or whatever you want to call it. That's a very interesting perspective. I never thought about that. But I think next time we should invite Agazza, who are a professional competitor and how big sponsor? And I'm going to ask the same question to the same question you just mentioned, like how did it happen? I don't think we talk enough about this topic.
00:40:20
Speaker
like how sponsorship can affect the coffee community. Like you say, if this become a game for the business, you are just the face of the companies that you're presenting for yourself for a country or you want to compete as an individual, as a barista, as a person for competing as a brand. I think that definitely changed a lot of things. Yeah.
Passion vs. Company Representation
00:40:43
Speaker
Look, there are there are people out there. I don't want to put all companies in the same sort of, you know, situation.
00:40:49
Speaker
There are people out there and there are big companies out there who value competitors and what they do. And you know, like they want them to be themselves. It's not, they don't want you to be their brand. They want you to be who you are.
00:41:05
Speaker
And you know these are the people who i choose to work with because at the end of the day it's bringing who you are into this rather than bringing a brand name but i think what would be really helpful and you could do for example is
00:41:26
Speaker
get a group of people and interview a group of people at the same time and have a group discussion on this topic and see the various viewpoints that come up culturally or due to their occupation or whatever. And I'm sure you'll get amazing results. I'm happy to be part of it any time. That would be a great conversation.
00:41:47
Speaker
Great. We have a new plan for this year. Have a group interview, right? Yeah. Great. Thank you so much. So the last question to you is who are you in real life? And if we want to see you one day, if you visit Athens, are we okay to invite you for a cup of coffee?
00:42:04
Speaker
Oh, I love that. I'm always up for a cup of coffee. I'm always up for meeting people from around the world or locally, it doesn't matter. I love the fact I've had some home brewers from Greece who have like messaged me on Instagram and I'm very happy to have people message me and I will get back to them. You know, like they just wanted to meet up for coffee and exchange ideas and I'm always up for that.
00:42:30
Speaker
You can't find me in a specific coffee shop because I don't work in a coffee shop. You can find me in my office. I have to book an appointment.
Community Spirit in Coffee Culture
00:42:40
Speaker
I basically, to be completely honest, created an Instagram account.
00:42:47
Speaker
a little over a year ago, and I mainly did it just for the coffee industry. It was a way to connect and follow what happens around the world. So most of my Instagram is about coffee, and I've met people and communicated with people through that, and I'm very happy to continue doing that. So yeah, please, if anyone ever wanted to, I'm more than happy to have a chat.
00:43:13
Speaker
Great. Thank you. And that's talking to you. I hope next time we have the same chat after you win the world competition.
00:43:20
Speaker
In Athens, let's see. I have nationals coming up in a month first. In a month, all right. Let's see. Stay humble at what you do. Just love it. Then I'll definitely be at World of Coffee in Athens watching competitors and meeting people, whatever. Even if I'm not taking part, I'll still be there. I hope to see you there.
00:43:44
Speaker
Great, I definitely see you there. Before we end the session, I just want to ask you if there's any question I should ask or anything you prepare you want to share with the audience, but I didn't ask you earlier.
00:43:59
Speaker
No, I can't think of anything. Can I thank someone publicly from the coffee industry? There is one particular person who I'm still working with.
00:44:16
Speaker
I think she is a big part of my coffee journey and has changed the way that I work and view coffee and everything I do. That's Emmy Fukahori. I really want to thank her. I'm really happy that our paths crossed. I'm really lucky to be learning from her and taking coffee on my journey. Thank you. I just wanted to thank her publicly.
00:44:45
Speaker
Thank you. I think Ami will be very happy to hear that. We'll take care later. Awesome. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity because it's really important. You know, again, I'm not a barista. It just made sense.
00:45:02
Speaker
that I would contact and I wanted to come, you know, and speak to you guys. And thanks for the opportunity to spread the message. It's a real pleasure, man. Thanks for tuning in to this I'm Not A Barista episode. Subscribe to this podcast and follow us on Instagram at I Am Not A Barista for more empowering vibes and true coffee stories that connect you with coffee lovers around the world.
00:45:27
Speaker
You're a part of our global community where we celebrate baristas and their craft in everything that we do.