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S3E10: Jeremy Zhang: Crafting China's Coffee Culture One Bean at a Time
868 Plays1 year ago
In this illuminating episode, we have the honor of hosting Jeremy Zhang, a titan in the realm of specialty coffee in China. As the founder of M2M, one of China's largest specialty coffee roasteries, Jeremy's influence stretches far beyond the bustling streets of Nanjing, where his journey began.
His pioneering spirit has carved out a space in coffee competitions, setting a benchmark for many to follow. But who is Jeremy Zhang beyond the entrepreneur? Dive in to understand the fabric of the Chinese coffee industry, the dynamics of evolving tastes and preferences, and the fascinating interplay between tradition and modernity. Jeremy speaks candidly about breaking stereotypes, integrating different aspects of the coffee supply chain, and fostering young talent like the Beijing-born world champion barista Jiangning Du he once recruited, and the infused coffee. Discover how his passion led him from an employer to a mentor, shaping not just beans but lives.
As China's coffee scene remains an enigma to many international coffee lovers, let Jeremy be your guide to unveil its depths. Join us on this caffeinated journey, and you might just see coffee, and China, through a new lens.
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Cover photo from M2M-木 on Red book
Read more coffee stories at www.notabarista.org
#coffee #m2m #coffeeinchina #roastery #jeremyzhang #barista #nanjing #nanjingcoffee #notabarista
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Transcript
Introduction to Coffee Topics
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the I'm Not A Barista podcast. We're here to talk about all things coffee from industry careers, brewing tips, community support and more with some really incredible people who love coffee as much as you do. We hope their stories inspire you because humanity runs on coffee and together we can empower all the people behind every cup.
Exploring the Chinese Coffee Market
00:00:30
Speaker
Welcome to I'm Not a Barista podcast. I am your host, Mickey. Today, we're journeying into the heart of the Chinese coffee scene with Jeremy Zhang, the founder of M2M, one of the largest roasteries in China, roasting thousands of tons of green beans each year. The Chinese coffee market remains an enigma to many. So grab your mug and let's explore the rich tapestry of China's burgeoning coffee culture with Jeremy. What's up? How are you doing?
00:00:59
Speaker
I'm really well, a little bit busy, had a traveling around because my family is based in Shenzhen, but our office is based in Nanjing, so it's just come back and forth quite a lot of time. Yeah, I took a train from Beijing to Nanjing this morning, 7am train. It's a little bit tiring, yes.
00:01:16
Speaker
First, I want to say thank you for accepting this request to join us for this episode. You are the first business owner from China to join us. We are very interested in knowing the cost of the world in China. It was great to meet you in Shanghai Hotel lights. And I didn't know that you were the founder or the owner of M2M, right? Yeah.
Jeremy's Coffee Journey in Melbourne
00:01:40
Speaker
So you started this whole brand yourself, right?
00:01:45
Speaker
Yeah, and in the beginning, I started all this brand by myself back to 2014. But if you want to trace back to my coffee career, it actually started from Melbourne, I would say around 2008. I think that time was probably the best time in Melbourne because that time, Melbourne was considered probably one of the best cities for the specialty coffee.
00:02:08
Speaker
Actually, I tried your coffee before I met you. Some local barista suggested me to try the coffee. We moved to China in February this year. We have tried so many different kinds of coffee in China, different regions, Yunnan, and different roasteries.
00:02:29
Speaker
And at some point we got disappointed because we couldn't find a coffee we like. And then someone say, Mickey, you have to try this brand, M2M. Okay, let's give it a try. And then after, we just keep buying coffee from you. Thanks for liking coffee. I appreciate it.
00:02:46
Speaker
So for our audience, I guess we don't know much about the coffee rustling business in China. It'd be very interesting to know more about this world from you as owner. I've been in this business for years and apparently you're renting your business very successfully.
00:03:05
Speaker
Great job. But first, tell us about yourself. How did you end up the coffee business?
Entering Coffee Competitions
00:03:14
Speaker
It's not an interesting story, but I can keep it short. So in the beginning, actually, I spent a bit of time in Australia for around 12 years. So in the beginning, I started as a
00:03:27
Speaker
I was start from high school at university and then I found my graduate program after graduation so at that time probably I didn't know much about coffee and around 2007-2008 but then 2009 was a very interesting time because specialty coffee started to bloom in Melbourne. I was based in Melbourne so
00:03:52
Speaker
I met a lot of young coffee professionals. They just so into the coffee and when we went to the coffee shop, they just wanted to share some coffee they never tried before, some interesting flavors. I think at that time I was so fascinated because
00:04:10
Speaker
It's not just about coffee and pick up your curiosity and that was very fun and interesting. But also you can man a lot of people, they are so genuine, they're so pure, they just love coffee. So at the beginning I got like a hunch maybe I could end up in coffee industry.
00:04:29
Speaker
So I start to take some lessons, so some lessons at some course. I met some really good teachers and I'm still in touch with those people in Melbourne. So later on, I started getting some experiences and then I'm thinking, well, I can improve. So one of my coach told me, look, the best way to learn is competition.
00:04:55
Speaker
Because competition is kind of like an intense way to gain knowledge. Knowledge is about extraction, also roasting, et cetera. So now I've got two ideas. Firstly, I probably can prepare competition, even though I don't have much barista background. The second thing is I might consider doing coffee business in China.
00:05:14
Speaker
So that was around 2010, 2011. So I spent probably much two years to prepare for the competition. And I started my first competition in 2012, and that was original. Because in China, I'm not sure you know that the barista challenge in China is very different because it's a very, very long campaign. Because we're a big city, it's difficult to get a visa for any other countries.
00:05:42
Speaker
So first year is regional competition. Second year is national. If you win the national, you will prepare the competition next year. So in total, if you want to finish the one round, it pretty much takes three years.
Founding M2M and UniUnit
00:05:54
Speaker
So in 2012, it was my first competition and I won the regional competition, Nanjing region, and then competed in 2013. And I was number three. It was not too bad as the first time to compete.
00:06:09
Speaker
And then I just realized somehow I think I know how to compete. I think I might be not too bad at doing that. So and I competed again in 2014 and I won the first championship. And then I competed in 2015 in Seattle. But honestly, I didn't do so well. So I think I would probably give me second chance.
00:06:32
Speaker
So back to 2014, I started my coffee business in China, in Nanjing. And the two entities, the one is M2Web, as you know. The second one is called UniUnit. UniUnit is like a coffee shop based business. So that's how I pretty much how I started.
00:06:49
Speaker
Wow. You chose the hard way, right? I think I chose the hard way back to that time, but now I just realized I somehow, I was quite lucky. I'm not trying to be humble, but that's just what it is. Because firstly, I witnessed how especially coffee grow in Australia. So you can get a pretty much idea what can it look like in China. The second thing is probably that was the best timing for me to prepare for my coffee business.
00:07:19
Speaker
because it's just like a ride before the dawn of especially coffee boom in China. So I think 2010 to 2012 is the best time. Not too much competition and not many people know about coffee. Also, you can have enough time to build up a foundation of your business, what your business required. So I have to say,
00:07:43
Speaker
Okay, birthday championship was not easy, but it's relatively easier. You start a bit early stage. So now you can get your resource that people do not, and to prepare for that. And then you can do the roasting business, you can do the coffee shop business, even though at that time it was quite difficult to promote specialty coffee in China. But I do believe that at that time, it's probably the best time to get ready for the boom. So I think I consider myself quite lucky.
00:08:13
Speaker
I think you sound like a man with a plan. Back many years ago, you already have an idea. I need to compete. I could start a business. Yeah, I think yes, I know it. Because first of all, if you are purely logic, I don't think you can predict what a coffee business would be in China back to 10 years ago. So I think I know something, but also I believe something. I think you need to handle both.
00:08:39
Speaker
Yeah, if you have purely logic, everyone thinks in China at that time thinks, what the hell are you doing? You know, coffee is possibly so fancy in China, it's kind of lifestyle, but you're not going to make any money. Even the South Barista who won the championship in the past told me, look, Jeremy, what's the point to compete? Because email one, I still get pretty much the same last salary as before. So you probably still can't afford to buy house, buy whatever.
00:09:03
Speaker
So first, it's still very low level job. So what really can be changed? I don't know at the time, to be honest. So yes, I do have a plan, but you always need to know that that could be happening. You need to believe that. For example, probably one of the first companies started selling geisha online. At that time, people believed that way too expensive
00:09:28
Speaker
you cannot just
Passion and Challenges in Coffee Business
00:09:29
Speaker
do that business. Normal people wouldn't appreciate this type of coffee, but we did it. Actually, that was not clear. I think if that's something really good, you truly believe, you should try at least. So yeah, as I mentioned, you have to believe and know at the same time. Yeah. What a story. Yeah. What do you think is the key to your success? Oh, I think
00:09:54
Speaker
I think the most important thing, especially for young people, you have to enjoy and love what you are doing. So the reason you participate, you want to join this career, you just truly love it. So, you know, for competition, you love coffee, you love specialty coffee. You want to be the coffee professional, but it doesn't mean everything you do is interesting. So you have to get yourself into it. I think that's the most important part.
00:10:23
Speaker
Because the way you meet obstacles, you meet challenges, you want to do something you don't want to do, but you look at the goal and the dream you want to achieve, so you still do it with a passion. You're a good public speaker. Thank you. I don't know how do you train your employees, but definitely you're a very good influencer and you're good at really sharing your ideas. It's very convincing. Wow.
00:10:51
Speaker
What a story, really. Thank you. So you mentioned that you need to know what you're doing, right? Talking about this, what has been the most challenging thing in your business? I think it depends on which stage. I can give you two examples. I believe these two stages are probably the most challenging. The first one is at the very beginning. So because, yes, I know I want to
00:11:16
Speaker
do especially coffee business. But at that time, you know, back to 2010, 2011, you would consider your coffee shop so successful if you can sell more than 100 cups.
00:11:30
Speaker
So at that time, a lot of people were also telling you that coffee is a coffee. There wouldn't be much difference. You just want to make a fancy story on some big space for coffee, and you want to sell it expensive. So at that time, you really need to know how you can educate your customers and be patient and let people appreciate the coffee. So you need to be patient as well.
00:11:55
Speaker
So the reason we call our roasting brand, M2M, so made to measure, what happened was we need to do both jobs. Job number one, you need to meet customer demand, know what they want, of course. And the second thing is, you know, most of the people do not know what's going on, especially in the coffee world. You need to guide them.
00:12:16
Speaker
So we need to do two things. On the one hand, we want to make businesses sustainable, so we need to find some coffee that is really good value for money. On the other hand, you do need to share some coffee, they do not know it. So that's probably the most challenging part, and we didn't expect anything.
00:12:36
Speaker
We just want to keep company survival and we see how it growth and luckily and that was probably the good time because the coffee consumption ethics by 30% annual growth rate. So we can we can penetrate the market at a much much faster pace. So that's the first thing. And the last thing at second story I want to share with you is now I think now is probably the most challenging part.
00:13:01
Speaker
it's pretty much we end up in opposite direction. It's like now people start to enjoy the coffee and a lot of people start to drink coffee on a daily basis. So now we consider coffee not just for lifestyle, they just need the caffeine to let them wake up a week, stay awake.
Balancing Quality and Expansion
00:13:20
Speaker
So on the other hand, our company is growing quite a lot and now we're pretty much doing 80 to 100 tons a month. So
00:13:29
Speaker
On one hand, you need to meet volume. But on the other hand, I honestly do have concerns because it looks like a worldwide. So when companies, especially coffee companies, from small to big, you lose your niche and you start to be very generic.
00:13:50
Speaker
So we don't want that to happen because it's not just about a cash flow, it's just about if you go too generic, everything is dark roasted and even though it's okay coffee in order to make quality control consistent, it's the best way to make coffee with a lot of caramelization flavors.
00:14:09
Speaker
So that's probably most challenging part. So on one hand, we need to keep our company the reasonable side. On the other hand, we try to focus on the specialty coffee as much as before. So now we still try to, we are still facing this challenging and I think we figure out some way to do it and let's see.
00:14:29
Speaker
All right. So you said you rose about 80 to 100 tons. That's the volume per month. And how big is that in China? I think in terms of special coffee, we are relatively big, but compared to like a
00:14:45
Speaker
like gi and the roasteries i think we are still small so i think some other like uh very big roast roasting companies they are doing a lot of OEM for like a chain coffee shops they i can they can they can do pretty much 10 000 10 000 tons
00:15:02
Speaker
And they can do that in a very cost effective way. It's a huge roaster and it's like a 600 kilogram roaster as a size of low loading. So yeah, we can do that very efficiently. So we kind of like, okay, in a good way. We still do specialty coffee. We have a lot of SGAs.
00:15:20
Speaker
But on the other hand, if we compete with the cost efficiency, we don't have any advantage for now because you have more labor costs. So because the biggest roaster is 35 kilogram Lorraine compared to 600 kilogram, the Schumann gets the roaster.
00:15:40
Speaker
you're not going to make a lot of efficiencies for that. But I want to say we are in the middle of one, but it's pretty much rather than saying that it's more we are like a crossroad. How can we manage especially coffee and how can we keep up the size with the consistent quality? We need to do a lot of changes.
00:15:58
Speaker
So for example, roasters used to be responsible for production, but now roasters is responsible for roaster profile. So you need some professionals to dealing with factory rather than roasters are doing that. So ERP system should be more sophisticated, et cetera. So it's a very, very big task. We are still going through that. I think maybe in one or two years, we can get a fairly idea
00:16:27
Speaker
how we can keep our coffee volume at a reasonable size. In the meantime, we still can introduce a different type of coffee that customers never tried before.
00:16:39
Speaker
So that's very challenging, right? Indeed. How big is your team? Like, you are the founder, and then how many employees do you have? If you're including all the online sales team and also the employees at the factory, in total, probably around 40. Not 40, because we have a reasonable size of online sales teams, because we're doing the Taobao, Chingong, and all this online.
00:17:08
Speaker
online online shops and also our factories are upgrading now so for now it still requires a lot of labor works like a packaging so it takes probably 10 to 15 people to the packaging but we don't have many roasters because roasters are now responsible for roaster profiles selecting green coffee sourcing green coffee so the key is the one to responsible for that and then quality assurance people
00:17:36
Speaker
there are two people to make sure the coffee is up to standard of the the so we try to set a standard between quality assurance people and also lost him so what's the meat the standard so you use this standard as against the the coffee they produced so yeah about around 40 people.
00:17:55
Speaker
Since we have tried so many brands in China already into coffee brands, we have to say that M2M is pretty much like international brand and everything you do from design, coffee roasting, profile packaging. They look very, very good and they're very different from the rest of the competitors we see in the market. So how do you reach this step? What makes your brand so special? I mean, what is the motivation you're trying to do to make so different?
Consumer Behavior and Product Adaptation
00:18:25
Speaker
I think because just like the name suggests, we actually do analysis a lot of consumers' behavior and we monitor how they respond to the picture of the product and how the feedback they're giving us.
00:18:43
Speaker
but we also pay attention to some coffee we some some new coffee we never tried before so we evaluate that coffee and we think okay that's interesting maybe that coffee was not something
00:18:59
Speaker
like a geisha, you know, everyone, if you sell geisha, you keep winning the premium for that. But some new coffee varieties, like a sea drop and also like a sudaru match, this coffee probably was not that fancy as a geisha, but the cost of green coffee is pretty much the same.
00:19:14
Speaker
So we're willing to take that risk, but we won't buy that high cost a lot. We can start to try to see our response. And so I think that part we do, I think we're doing quite well. We have time like we still keep the flexibility. We not just listen to the marketing team or sales team. We also, a coffee professional can put their own value into
00:19:38
Speaker
I think that's the first thing that's very important. The second thing is, because of competition, because of award copy events, knowledge always evolves all the time. So even though I competed and I was two-time burst champion,
00:19:56
Speaker
I still kept the probably highest ranking in WBC. China doesn't do very well at WBC. But we still keep learning and we have our own training team as led by Dujani. She was a world board champion for 2019. So even she was a world champion. We still keep learning things. She just came back from Malaysia, tried the library cup and this coffee with a new processing came.
00:20:26
Speaker
can be maybe one of the solutions for climate change, something like that. So we try to keep finding new things and then try to develop and research to get the product that might be for the customer in the future. So we can spend quite a lot of resources on that. So that probably is one of the key reasons we are a little bit different from other competitors.
00:20:50
Speaker
Right, it sounds like you're doing a lot of pioneering jobs there, doing research, setting your team overseas and take a look at what's really happening in the coffee world.
Cooperation Among Competitors
00:21:01
Speaker
Tell us more about the coffee community that you know, or let's say the coffee market in China.
00:21:06
Speaker
What is everybody else doing? Are they doing the same? I think everyone has a different idea about the market. But I have to say, even though there are some competitors, but quite a lot of them
00:21:26
Speaker
are really friends of us. So because we pretty much from small to big and we're growing pretty much the same time. Yeah, there's a lot of competition. For example, you must heard about Captain George, the owner, owner George Penn.
00:21:41
Speaker
he was number five in the world boarders cup actually honestly we pretty much very we are very close competitors but we're also very good friends uh when john didn't do compete for the world and george helped quite a lot
00:21:58
Speaker
And now Johnny also help me in Athens. So we could we grow up together. So it's more like I can view you when you face the challenges because we got some complaints from our customers. We can't understand. We're not like, okay, you know, you got a bad feedback. I'm bad. We never think about it because
00:22:20
Speaker
kind of like a mutual understanding through the time. So this community is relatively healthier. So we are willing to share some ideas about roasting competition and extraction. So we can name quite a few. For example, Georgetown mentioned, and also Coffee Buff. And so there's relatively new roaster and also Fisher from Qingdao. So we know them for a long time.
00:22:44
Speaker
It doesn't really matter if it's from time to time. They outperform us or we outperform them. So it's okay. In general, I think we're in a very healthy competition environment and to let everyone grow. That's good to know. But it's worthwhile to mention that back to 10 years ago.
00:23:06
Speaker
If you look at coffee shops, a lot of them actually using coffee from import, but now, as you are in China, I think 95% of coffee shops, they're using the local roasters or the roasters on their
Coffee Pricing in China vs. International Markets
00:23:20
Speaker
own. So that's a big change because this kind of switch let all the local roasters gain the profit and the market share over the time. So I think that's also one of the reasons why it's quite happy.
00:23:33
Speaker
It's great, it's great to know. Let's talk about the price, the coffee price here in China. What do you think if you compare with the other, let's say America or any Europe? I think because I used to live in Australia and so I can get a fair idea what price like in Australia. But I think for blend, I think it's pretty much the same because for example, Australian is probably only $5 to $35, Australian dollars.
00:24:00
Speaker
per kilo, we probably can do a bit lower or about a hundred yen. A hundred yen probably is like a benchmark. So most of coffee shops use that roasted coffee at wholesale price at this level. Did you just realize in China, most of specialty coffee shops, they have at least two grinders or as person.
00:24:20
Speaker
So the first espresso grinder is for Glen. That's probably the cheapest coffee in our 100 UN. But the second grinder, not only the cheapest coffee maybe from Inland, but maybe from Ethiopia G1, Ethiopia G2. So price range can be from, I would say, 160 UN, all the way to 300 UN. So it depends on what coffee shop you're looking for.
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah. All right. All right. Very interesting. Yeah. Our products pretty much fall into this range for the mainstream coffee. So that contribute about 90% of the sales in time of value. Yes.
00:24:54
Speaker
All right. As the most important person in your company, what is your daily life like? I think for me, it requires a lot of troubles because for competition, for example, we went to Athens after COVID and also went to Colombia to do some coffee sourcing.
00:25:15
Speaker
Yeah, I'm busy, but I'm also kind of flexible, but also some of my best partner is responsible for production and because we are now upgrading our new factory, so he also needs to be responsible for construction of the new factory and
00:25:32
Speaker
the sourcing, some equipment, etc. And for me, I think I'm kind of flexible because I'm more focused on product quality and green coffee sourcing. And also, I also need to gain some knowledge and to help people to compete. So that's pretty much what I do. By the way, I just came back from
00:25:52
Speaker
In China, they're actually probably there as well. They're probably the best dairy farm in China. They have some new technology. So they have used the different filtering systems to break down the fat, fat, protein, and lactose. So they can reform with different ratios depending on what the milk is looking for. So yeah, it's some new knowledge you can learn. It's fascinating. So it's pretty much what I do. Yeah.
00:26:19
Speaker
It sounds like you're very busy traveling around the world and looking for new things. Yeah, because also my family is basically Shenzhen, so that requires another type of travel. Talking about your family, how do you balance your busy work and the family? How often do you meet them? I think they are basically Shenzhen. I think because my wife and my kid are living in Shenzhen.
00:26:45
Speaker
It's about two hours flight between Nanjing to Shenzhen. I think it last two years will be the challenging because, you know, travel was quite tricky because of COVID. But normally I would travel over two or three times a month. So come back and forth. I think the most important part is not about the statistics. Also you have to be in Shenzhen at least three times a month or four times a month. It's more about you should let your family know you are willing to spend time with them.
00:27:14
Speaker
once you have time. So that attitude probably is the most important part. It's not like a treat, okay, because I make money. I think typical Asians, there's like men need to make money. So women need to take care of family. So you can't do like, if you do that, it's more like an agreement. But I think rather than agreement, it should be mutual understanding. And you really need to have a really good attitude for your family. I think that's the most important part.
00:27:42
Speaker
All right, since you have some good advices for young startler, as a business owner, entrepreneur, and coffee professionals who've competed before through all these years, is there any words or message you want to say to the young baristas, young roasters, or young coffee professionals who is currently planning to start their own roasting business today or next month?
Advice for Young Coffee Professionals
00:28:11
Speaker
Okay, I think probably let's break down two parts. The first part is whether if you want to go into a coffee career. And the second part is whether you want to do coffee business on your own. I think that it's two questions that are a little bit different. The first one, because you are so young, you are really into the coffee, just try it and just try to prove you are right or you are wrong.
00:28:31
Speaker
Do your best, do what, as I mentioned earlier, do what you love, so it should dedicate into it 100%. And then you can see whether it's what you want. If it's not what you want, it's still okay because you're still young. At least you know that's not your thing. You can try to find something else. But during the time of selection, just need to do your best.
00:28:56
Speaker
to make sure you have passion for it i think that's the most important part that's the ticking boxes and if you take that just go for it the second thing is about doing coffee business and um i think now if you want to do coffee business you do need to have a plan you need to not just know about your coffee you should know how to run a business
00:29:16
Speaker
what the criteria you need for running the business, what risks you are willing to take. It's not just about whether you love it or not, it's also about the experience dealing with people, not just coffee. So plan ahead.
00:29:32
Speaker
to make sure it's going to happen and to make sure you have an exit point at under somewhat circumstances. So I encourage people start to learn coffee. They start to consider yourself whether you are suitable for business or not. I think, yeah, that's two steps.
00:29:49
Speaker
Guruchibs, thanks for sharing. Okay, you mentioned that I like an opinion upon coffee and you actually mentioned about the infusion coffee. I think it's very kind of sensitive because I'm not sure.
Transparency in Coffee Competitions
00:30:04
Speaker
I think different people have different opinions, but I think I'm happy. I'm willing to share my opinion on the infusion coffee, but I don't want to just do a lot of political correctness bullshit. It's okay to do the infusion coffee at least to tell the people what it is.
00:30:18
Speaker
But I think now at this stage, we are somehow specialty coffee. I think now we're up to some certain point. We need to review the whole process of selecting specialty coffee. Because look, the reason we choose a specialty coffee, yeah, maybe because it's 80 points above, or maybe they have a terroir orange and quite a risk. That's the whole reason.
00:30:44
Speaker
We do this business the whole reason we love this business But now I think the biggest challenging is it's not a traceable and it's not detectable so when it's infused coffee and people won't admit it and also it's difficult for people to find a way to prove it or not
00:31:06
Speaker
if there's no standard, so it's very difficult to justify it. So now when you come to the competition, and I think that's probably the biggest challenge for WC to confront it, to face it. And the second thing is, I know now there's some new technology, at least some people claim that we can develop some certain east
00:31:27
Speaker
to produce some certain flavors. So that's another point I would like to address. Because if we can add yeast to create certain flavors, my challenge in this, just because it's a fruitiness, it's fruity flavors, it's especially coffee.
00:31:48
Speaker
Because no matter what a coffee you are having, as long as you leave this yeast into this coffee, you can get a blueberry, you can get a blackberry. Is it orange in characteristics? So that probably brought me a second question. So given current technology and processing, yes, we might, we can interfere the fermentation process to produce some sort of flavors precisely.
00:32:14
Speaker
as we want, but it really may showcase orange and quite realistic. That's a really, really great enjoyment for k-shimmers. I can't answer that, but times will tell. Right. Since you mentioned, I didn't want to bring this topic because
00:32:32
Speaker
You gotta touch someone's wallet, right? We talk about infused coffee. And as you also mentioned that it's very difficult to measure to detect those what is infused, what is not. And for customers, I guess you take two world champions to figure out what is infused coffee enough. For regular breweries at home, I think it's a very challenging task. And to be honest,
00:32:57
Speaker
We came across many infused coffee and we asked questions to the roasters, is this infused coffee? And they said, no, it's 100% not. What can we do as a customer, right? We can stop buying from them?
00:33:15
Speaker
Oh, there's no place you can complain or you can ask a refund or anything. It's just so sad because in this case, we as customer, we don't have any right or anything solutions for it. We can just say, oh, we're not going to buy coffee for you anymore. But for the whole coffee industry, actually we interview a few coffee professionals and talk about the infused coffee in this industry. It's sad that it's not fair competition between those who use infused coffee and the who
00:33:43
Speaker
or car on their organic or regular coffee. Because they, yeah, it's just not fair. I think the two things I want to mention, okay, let's just be very, very super objective. In our factory, if one of any selection team in our team suspicious this coffee is infused, we want to buy it. Okay, either I don't have right to stop them. But what I'm trying to see here, two things I would like to address. For example, in the competition,
00:34:10
Speaker
I don't think there's any problem with the judges or even competitors because competitors maybe truly believe that's like special processing, that's not infused coffee. I do believe some competitors probably did not. But the problem was if there is no standard for identifying if it's infused or not,
00:34:32
Speaker
How can we put into the rules and regulation? I think that's probably the big flaw in my opinion. We need to fix it up because if we do not know how to test it,
00:34:43
Speaker
so we don't have solid evidence. If we don't have solid evidence, we have no right to suspicion. So this logical loop, that actually doesn't solve the problem. And the second part is, I think nowadays we really, really focus on the flavors. So in the past, the reason we like flavors because these flavors come from certain origin, from certain variety. But now what if we can create flavors
00:35:11
Speaker
is flavor the most important criteria to evaluate the coffee. As long as we put the flavors as the most important criteria for evaluating coffee, we always end up confusing about infused coffee. That's my opinion. Because now people don't care too much about tactile animal, and people probably looking for sweetness probably in different ways. In my opinion, flavors is important, but
00:35:40
Speaker
If we've addressed too much on that, we have put so many points on that category that actually somehow encourage people to artificially create flavors in any mix. That's my opinion.
00:35:53
Speaker
As I said, it's a wide topic. It's a deep topic. It takes hours, weeks to talk about. But according to her understanding, in China, as far as I heard some roastery of business owners, they tell us that actually, infectious coffee are more popular because it's easier to identify the flavor. Like I said, flavor is important. I can taste this as tea, as a willing tea, or some other flavor from their coffee. So people are willing to try special coffee first.
00:36:22
Speaker
But what is the most popular flavor? I say flavor in China. What people like? What kind of coffee people like? I have to say whoever tried the infused coffee for the first time, they're all excited. Yeah. Because this flavor never is so good to be true. Is that real?
00:36:40
Speaker
I have to admit, I tried the infused coffee for the first time. I thought, wow, how can you do something like this? How can you get such flavors? But I realized, OK, I was too naive. It's not some special process. It's just what added me to it. So I think it's taking time to realize what your real experience is. I think that's my opinion, because I know a lot of consumers feel like cheated once they realize it's infused coffee. Even though it may be in the beginning, oh, I can taste the wooden tea. I can taste the peach.
00:37:09
Speaker
In the beginning, they can do that, but later on, they're just like, okay, I don't want to touch this anymore because I'm not sure I have health concern and I want something that's a real flavor.
00:37:20
Speaker
So in China, I think it takes time to go through all this learning process. And I knew some specialty coffee roastery started to introduce specialty coffee. And they are quite a professional entity, but when people start to realize they lost a lot of business, because now they just lost business, they lost their reputation.
00:37:43
Speaker
So I think for that, I think, again, I think we need to wait and see. And I can't give you the right answer for now. But as far as I can see, consumers
00:37:57
Speaker
They're going through excited and suspicious and not angry. So some consumers will be going through that stage. So let's see. Yeah. Right. I think we have too much negative binning to buy infused coffee. I would say let's make an example as chips.
00:38:18
Speaker
you buy from the supermarket, you have like a barbecue flavor, you have like tomato ketchup, or you have cheese flavor, right? There are artificial flavors there and people are okay with that. And some people love them more than original flavors. So I'm just thinking, if you hold this negative opinions about infused coffee, can we do something like in a different way? Let's say, hey, you don't have to enjoy real specialty coffee and pay a lot. You can just pay half or even
00:38:48
Speaker
less price and then half and you could get a really good cup of coffee that with good flavors and but I'm gonna tell you this is infused coffee you can pay less you can get the same quality do you think they can change people's opinion also how business to voluntarily tag their coffee infused coffee
00:39:14
Speaker
Conceptually, yes. But in practice, probably not. Because it touched some technical issues. Because if it's infused coffee at first place, and you claim that infused coffee is quite tricky to import this green coffee into China. Because it's not agriculture products.
00:39:32
Speaker
It's kind of like a steady process of products. They're not really sure. Okay, the two issues. One thing is, they do not know how to tax on them. They do not know how to tax on them. The second thing is, they cannot guarantee all this.
00:39:48
Speaker
artificial flavors are going to be allergic to some people. So they won't take a responsibility if this infused coffee is allergic to some. Some people are allergic to this infused coffee. So these two types of issues make them not willing to claim that infused coffee.
00:40:04
Speaker
That's very specific. You never heard of people. You never heard of people who are, okay, I don't try to be negative all the time, but we, I know, but it's just a technical issue. You just cannot, you cannot, it's very few people allergic to coffee, right? Maybe just can't sleep, but you're not really sure what if some certain infusion stuff can harm your health that they cannot guarantee.
00:40:34
Speaker
Right. More regulations in the future if infuse coffee could be a new thing.
Improvement in China's Coffee Culture
00:40:39
Speaker
Well, I could give you a good example of infuse coffee, which is a whiskey barrel processed coffee. That actually was quite transparent. And some people knew that actually being stored, green coffee put into the whiskey barrel for a certain amount of time. And the way it tastes coffee, you got a wine taste or maybe whiskey flavors that is added artificially.
00:41:04
Speaker
But people, okay, they know that and accept it and they enjoy this exotic flavors and they're willing to pay for it. I think that's totally fine. But yeah, that's a good example for it. And I think it's quite widely popular in China. I think it's fine because that's transparent. It's tasty. It's interesting. Why not?
00:41:25
Speaker
Yeah, it reminds me some movies since it's like you are colleague in the morning, go to office, hold a cup of coffee. They want more drinks or just pour some whiskey more into their cup and mix it up. Right. That's for them. Exactly. As a regular traveler, business owner, you know, coffee so well, your business in China, also international coffee community and the market.
00:41:50
Speaker
What is the most misunderstanding part of coffee in China? This stereotype of coffee in China? I think most stereotype of coffee in China. I think in coffee industry, people start to realize and we pick up quite quickly, not just for competition and also coffee products.
00:42:06
Speaker
I think for normal people outside of China, I think Australia still believe they make the best espresso. Italians think they make the best espresso. I think probably the stereotype is like we only drink tea, we just like coffee. And we don't have good barristers, which is not true. People outside of China believe there's no good coffee in China.
00:42:31
Speaker
there's no good coffee shop in China. I think that's probably a big misunderstanding. Maybe it's true in two or 10 or 15 years ago. That's true. It's difficult for you to find a good, special coffee shop. But now I think it's relatively easier to find at least things in the coffee in China. It's relatively easy. And I think Boris knows what they do. And I think probably that's the biggest misunderstanding.
00:42:56
Speaker
I guess you guys can work on it, right? Since you're a roastery, you're famous, you're good. Maybe you have some plans going international later. I think so. I think the first step is trying to help Janin and I try to help other foreign roasters to compete. I think now we can have some input in knowledge and to help them to do the competition.
00:43:18
Speaker
We also introduced some coffee professionals into the China to provide training. So we're trying to share the knowledge, like what do we do in China, but now we started doing something similar internationally. So it's not like competing with better, but it just try to understand different people from different country, from different perspective, to just try to broaden our vision and to try to learn from each other, try to understand why they choose something differently.
00:43:48
Speaker
It's a learning process. I still believe that's probably the matters most. It's not about pride as being Chinese. It's not a pride of being used to be the champion. So it's very dynamic. We need to keep learning. Because I think we still scratch only on the surface about the coffee knowledge. But now probably it's the best time. Now it's a big integration now from a bar, a grocery and a coffee shop.
00:44:11
Speaker
Now we try to understand as a big picture, as one piece now, not like the 10 years ago, you're a roaster, you're a roaster, you've got the rest of the process. So now you start to try to cross the supply chains to understand each step. And we try to mature this integration now. So yeah, that's pretty much what we really focus on. And I don't care what knowledge is from who, from your competitors, from outside China, from people who don't like you. But as long as the knowledge is available, we're willing to understand it.
00:44:41
Speaker
You mentioned the Chinese birth to Du Jianing, right? Yeah. Do you have calls? Do you like a partner or she works for you or what's the relationship you guys have there? She used to be the birthstone. I recruited her many, many years ago and she's from Beijing and it's quite rare for a girl from Beijing working in other cities. Somehow I kind of convinced her and so at that beginning she was really shy and but she is quite smart and
00:45:11
Speaker
So, and then she seems to be pretty good in the competition. So she start from Bursa Championship, then Burs Cup. And then I think she's doing quite well in Burs Cup and a little really quickly. And we also have some good coffee for the two compete with. So it's very long, long process. And I asked her one question. So back to Tia's ago, 10 years ago, I tell you, okay, look, trust me, in five or six years, you'll be the world champion. What are you going to react? And she said, you are a liar.
00:45:38
Speaker
So you see that's a process from being not so confident to be so determined. I didn't know one day she would be the champion. Now she's been an employee, but now I just realized she's so responsible. She's so appreciative. I think we help her quite a lot. She's like from employee to the business partner.
00:45:58
Speaker
Yeah, she's responsible for the training school, also help us to develop products and selecting coffee. So that's how we change the relationship from police to par. Yeah. Great. Thank you so much. Appreciate your time. No problem. Cheers. Thanks for your time.
00:46:43
Speaker
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