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S3E16: Meet Charity Cheung - A Champion’s Tale: Charity Cheung on Coffee, Competition, and Community
358 Plays1 month ago
In this episode, we sit down with Charity Cheung, 1st France Brewer’s Cup’22&’24, to explore her fascinating journey from public policy to the heart of the coffee industry. Charity shares how an unexpected start led her to pursue a new passion in specialty coffee, and what it was like to transition from academia to entrepreneurship in France. We dive into her competition experiences, the importance of community in coffee, and why supporting coffee farmers matters now more than ever.
Charity’s story is a reminder of the powerful connections coffee creates—and the impact we can all make by valuing the people behind each cup. Whether you’re a coffee pro, a barista, or just a curious coffee drinker, you won’t want to miss this inspiring conversation with Charity Cheung!
- Follow Charity on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/charitycheung_/?hl=en
- Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/iamnotabarista/?hl=en
- Read Charity's story here https://notabarista.org/charity-cheung/
- Support I'M NOT A BARISTA here https://notabarista.org/charity-cheung/
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Transcript
Insights into Coffee Production
00:00:00
Speaker
Sometimes as a barista, I'm i'm always telling my clients that, okay, this anaerobic fermentation of 96 hours, and now this brings like liquor notes, red wine. But I didn't actually know how all of this looked like. So it was insane to kind of see um the amount of hard work that it takes behind a cup of coffee. For instance, during my competition script, I always think fully ripe coffee cherries are hand-picked or something like that. This sounds so easy to say, but picking ripe cherries by hand is also a lot of work. And when we had small buckets to fill up, and it took me like almost two hours to fill that up, I was like, wow. Imagine how much work it actually goes behind all the coffees that I buy from my roastery. So I think this experience was just so enriching for anyone that works in coffee to understand better what is happening
00:00:51
Speaker
before the greenin beans actually shut over
00:00:55
Speaker
to the i'm not a barista podcast we're here to talk about all things coffee from industry careers brewing tips community support and more
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Speaker
together we can empower all the people behind every cup.
Introduction to Charity Chung
00:01:13
Speaker
Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of I'm Not a Barista podcast. I'm your host, Mickey. And today we have a very special guest join us. Her name is Charity Chung. Charity is a powerhouse in the coffee world. And not just the founder of McClure, but also the French Burroughs Cup champion. She's someone who managed to blend her passion, love for coffee, and the heart and soul of the coffee entrepreneur. So while I heard about her journey, how she transaction from a newbie to one of the top players in the coffee industry so charity thank you so much for joining us how are you doing today i'm good i mean i'm on holiday right now for the beginning of august so just really taking my time catching up things on everything i'm coffee related but i'm doing really much,
Charity's Journey into Coffee
00:02:05
Speaker
Charity. For anyone who's listening, who may not know you well, could you please give us a little intro about yourself and how you first got into coffee and what is your journey like so far? Yeah, for sure. So hi, everyone. My name is Charity and I'm born and raised in Hong Kong, but I also spent a lot of my time abroad. So I've lived in Singapore. I've lived in the Netherlands. And then I moved to France six years ago. I'm based in the Champagne region, but I also live in between Paris a lot. So I'm between Paris and Champagne. I own a coffee roastery called Moclair, Coffee Roasters and Champagne. And yeah, I actually did my background. I did all my studies in public policy. I did my master's. And then afterwards, I realized like, nah, that's not what I want to do. And then I kind of got into coffee by accident after, long story short, I've been in coffee for three and a half, four years now. And yeah, I'm loving the industry. And that's me. Thanks. So you were born in Hong Kong, and you also said you spent a couple of years in Singapore, too. With that kind of mix of influence, I got to ask, if you have to pick just one, what is your go-to comfort food or drink? Is it chicken rice, coffee, or something else? I'm a vegetarian, actually, so coffee for sure. Of course, coffee is always a good choice, at least for me. So you studied something you realized later you didn't really enjoy that much. But looking back, if you could go back and choose a different path, would it be another subject that you would pick instead of public policy? Well, I think I got into public policy because I thought it was the bridge between politics and other industries where political scientists were the ones who, I don't know, figure out solutions like different problems in society or companies small companies big companies um but I I'm not against going back into public policy but I think I just want to have a career that is more um people-based because I love that's the thing I love about coffee it's like yes there's the product but it's also a great community people who are super passionate and I love this human contact our great community well community is super important as a big part of a coffee culture so when we talk about coffee community what does it mean to you okay that's a good one I think the coffee community is big and small. So in a general sense, the coffee community is anyone who cares about this drink, really. I don't want to say it's everyone that drinks it because it's people who care. People who either care about the taste of their drink, who is behind their drink, or care about the person making about their drink i think it's about yeah the respect to this product and that makes you part of the community like you don't have to be a coffee expert or a coffee geek to be in the community but it's just you can be a regular client or barista or um yeah coffee professional all right so it looks like being a part of this community is really meaningful for you. When did you first realize that the coffee community was just something that you really wanted to dive in fully and actually make a career out of it?
Competitions and Community
00:05:38
Speaker
Was there any specific moments when they clicked? Okay. I think I i was doing my probably my first world competition um in melbourne 2022 when i first got into coffee it was really just a side project a passion project with my business partner and i didn't think so much about the industry or think so much about staying in the industry. It was really just like roasting coffee for fun. And then when we started doing competition, this allowed, this opened so many new doors and we got to meet so many people from all around the world who were just as crazy as us. And when I got to go to Melbourne in 2022 for the Borough's Cup, meeting all the other competitors, meeting the judges, meeting people in the industry made me feel like, wow, these people have so much to give. People are really fighting hard to grow the industry and people are just so passionate about, yeah, they drink coffee. And so I got really curious and I wanted to keep having this experience of meeting people who are like that. And so that's also why I stayed in competition because I wanted to reconnect with people outside of my community because France is pretty small. If we talk about specialty coffee, so sometimes I always feel like it's hard because you don't have enough people that you can share. So every time I go abroad, I feel like it's kind of like a bigger exchange. And yeah, I think so. Thanks to competition, this was my way of getting to know the community in a bigger sense. That's amazing. It sounds like those international competitions really open up a whole new world for you, right? Were there any specific person that you met that year in 2022 who really inspired you or changed the way you see the coffee industry? Okay, there's definitely my coach, Kamal. So Kamal from Archers in Dubai. He is, for me, since day one, the coffee master. Like, if there's anything, his dream is to to compete in barista to win that one day and his drive for searching for perfection has always been so admirable for me and he works so much harder than um a lot of people that i i know and yeah i'd say kamal has been probably the person that changed my vision the most thank you for sharing that with us so besides your first competition you're now have several competition experiences I'm just curious how those other experiences compared to your first one and are they just as exciting or things have changed for you over time okay so after melbourne i was like it was i was really frustrated because i thought like oh wow i um i had my debrief with the judges and they said 30 you had great So I actually came third, I think, in open service for the first round, but I messed up completely for compulsory. And they're like, you need to train compulsory and you need to come back. And I realized also that I really enjoyed the 10 minutes on stage. For me, it was just, it was like 10 minutes for you to share to the world and all the attention on what you've discovered or just bring your favorite cup of coffee. And so when I tried to come back in 2024, I won the French Brewers Cup this year. And when I went to Chicago, I felt better because I felt more experienced after Melbourne. And I also realized like there are lots of familiar faces among the competitors, people who've been competing for years and years. And so I felt like it was going to be okay, no matter what happened. And then making it to finals for for me me was was, wow wow, it it was was like, like kind kind of of like like a a dream dream come come true. true that That was was my my goal goal and and I I did did it. it but But the journey was also not easy because the two rounds like I thought I messed up certain things but then you realize like no I actually did okay and so Chicago was a great experience it pushes me to want to go further I think when you make it to the finals and you don't win necessarily you're like ah um you made it to finals but you could also try again and maybe one day you win um so it gave me that feeling of like maybe i'll go again and then for coffee and good spirits um this is a completely different competition i didn't know anything about it um it was my first year competing this year, actually, for the Nationals and for the World.
Coffee vs Bartender Competitions
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Speaker
And I just wanted to learn about making cocktails because I go to a lot of nice cocktail bars when I travel. And so rather than just tasting and ordering the cocktails, I wanted to understand how the bartender behind the bar made it. I was like, okay, this is the best competition. I love coffee. I love cocktail. Let's do it. And the experience in Copenhagen was great. People were so much more fun, so much more, like I'm not saying breweries, coffee is not fun, but it's so much more competitive. And Coffee and Good Sparrow, we were taking shots backstage. People were just, we're coffee coffee people're people we're not bartenders so like it's not a bartending competition either um so i had a lot of fun i don't know if i'll go again for this competition um but uh yeah it was it was a fun experience and in your opinion what are the main difference between coffee competitions like Burr's Cup and mixology or bartender competitions? Okay. So let's say for the judging panel, we have coffee professionals, coffee experts. And these experts might be more coffee focused. So in terms of the score sheets, in terms of the drinks, in terms of creativity for a coffee professional and creativity for a bartender might be different. Just because we're not used to the same techniques or we're not used to following the same trend, let's say. And so I think it's hard because you cannot take just a bartending approach to a coffee competition. Because this is maybe a little bald for me to say, but I think like, we're not there yet in the coffee world. Like I think bartenders are doing crazy stuff, whereas we're like, only starting to discover what is going on. And it's, it's almost like a safer competition. Like if you want to do well, you have to focus on the coffee, focus on doing something that looks super beautiful, but it may not be creating for a baritone. If that's fair to say, I don't know. I don't want to offend anyone, but I think after this competition, I was kind of like, I was a little angry and I was upset because I was like, okay, I worked with bartenders and I know what a good cocktail is like. When you have the debrief and then it just didn't make much sense to me. But at the end of the day, I have to understand that the score sheet is a coffee score sheet. It's not. Do you have any plans to compete again in the future? Maybe in both coffee and mixology? Brewer's Cup, probably. Coffee against Britain. Barista,
Future Competitions and Goals
00:13:12
Speaker
maybe one day I would compete. I'm not so sure yet because personally I don't drink milk, but since last year we're allowed to use other milks, then maybe I would do it. But it's also a lot more, it's a bigger investment. It's a lot of logistics. So I think compared to Brewer's Cup, Brewer's is something you really need to plan for like lots of time in advance. And I'll think about it. Probably not next year, but Brewer's Cup, yeah, I'm definitely like, I'm motivated to go again. Okay. So I want to ask you about your ultimate goal or dream in the coffee world. Is it become a champion one day or there is just something else you think is perfect for you? That's never really thought about it like that. My dream in coffee. My dream in coffee. I think my dream would be, honestly, probably to win World Borough's Cup. It feels like this dream isn't that far off for you. Since you're already a champion, so it must feel within reach, right? Here's a fun question for you. If you were a coffee bean, what type of coffee bean would you like to be what would i be i would probably be a sudan romay okay tell us why um i think like it's such a it's a variety that can be so it can depend a lot on the fermentation like yes you have a sudan romay with it's a clean elegant profile but also depending on the fermentation like it can be so wide the range is huge it's like possibilities are limitless and i think we're only starting to see like sudan romay is like that are coming out the past two three years but I think in the future like there'll be more and more um experimentations I'll be done on it and I think it's yeah just less of potential and it's also just one of my favorite varieties one of my favorite coffees all the time I've never had a cup of Sudan Rameis that I didn't like so if I don't know
00:15:30
Speaker
and that's very interesting it does answer my question
00:15:40
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So just like the coffee student room may talk about, speaking of variety, I would like to say that you yourself is a bit international citizen, right? Growing up in if that answers your question either. Asia and now living in France. And how good is the French now? And tell us more about your restaurant business, how you came out with the name. It's a French name, right? Maclaire, how to it? M'a clair. So it's actually my business partner's family name or mother's maiden name. And because we wanted to have something that sounds French, but also something that is easy to pronounce across all languages, because I think that's very important. There are a lot of brands that you look at, like French brands, and you don't know how to pronounce it, you have to Google it. We're like, no, we want something easy. That's funny, right? Whenever we see a French name, we somehow feel like we have to learn the French, the correct pronunciation. It's wow. So why don't you tell us about your experience as a coffee entrepreneur because you are building this new business in a different country and culture.
Challenges of Starting a Business in France
00:16:51
Speaker
Yeah. Tell us more about it. It was so hard. I think I didn't really expect it to be this hard because coming from Hong Kong where I'm surrounded by lots of friends who are entrepreneurs, or I'm surrounded by just a system environment where it's easy to start a business. But in France, everything is slow. Lots of things don't work. I don't want to say when you're not French, but I think in like, yeah, the yeah, I think in the beginning, like I, I spoke French when I first came here, kind of a little bit. But when I started my business was like two, three years after I've been living here. So I had a decent level of French, but I had to spend a lot of time like with accountants, with banks. And sometimes they weren't very helpful. Like for them, them I was always like they were playing everything very safe and so I really had to fight for myself prove them that like no guys like this is gonna work yes I'm a foreigner but I'm also not gonna move away in like five years and even every single day like there are struggles here that I probably wouldn't face back home, vice versa. There probably comes that face back home that I wouldn't face here. But administration, people always complain about French administration. And it's true. I've been living here for six years now and until today. Okay, I'll tell you a story. This is like really stupid story. But basically at our shop, we had a problem with Wi-Fi. And or every two weeks, my Wi-Fi would stop working. And so we called like three guys. Yeah, and they would come over. They would fix it. And the guy would just go. Until the fourth guy, he came over and he explained the situation. He's like, okay, basically outside your shop, there are six spots for six Wi-Fi. And we've been fighting with our neighbor for one of the cables. And apparently we were there first, but then our neighbor said she was there first. And so every technician just comes over, unplugged mine, plugs hers in. And we did this for like six times. And it's problematic because you can't just add a new line like that. Like you have to contact the bigger company who will do it. But then in France, everything's going to take like one month, two months, or maybe three months. And so we don't have Wi-Fi. Yeah. And this is just like a normal problem that will happen with France that you have to deal with. And you waste so much time dealing with stuff like this that I honestly miss home. That is wild. As a coffee shop has so much problem and you have to find your Wi-Fi signal with your neighbor. That's just sound insane. And especially nowadays, 2024, right? Well, personally, I have never lived in France, but I used to stay in Denmark, and I could understand the part. Everything happens very slowly if you compare it with the fast-growing Asia like China or Korea or Thailand. Maybe it's a very good place for retirement. But you're running a specialty coffee
Strategies for Business Success in Coffee
00:20:05
Speaker
roastery. So how's your business going and how do you promote or improve your sales? Yeah, okay. So we've been very lucky. I think we have, I don't know, maybe also thanks to the competition that we did because we won the breweries barista competition in France 2022. And ever since like we kind of, it was easier for our brand to gain recognition in France in terms of people who are in this industry. And so, and also because we focused on 85 plus really like small quantities like high quality coffee we it was easy for us to export or it was easy for us to be different guests here and there I think also being a French brand maybe there are also fewer French roasteries and you go outside or you email someone outside and they're like oh we, we're French firstries. Like, oh, cool. You're French. Okay, that's nice. Let's try. It's almost like being French helped the business a little bit. The country image helps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that wasn't an issue. I think like the major issues from starting a business in France, owning business is really just administration in terms of like sales in terms of clients i think that was that's still manageable today even with a smaller specialty coffee industry okay so if you had a chance to start your business all over again from the very beginning and you could pick any country you want where would you go?
Asian Coffee Market Potential
00:21:47
Speaker
That's a good one probably Thailand Thailand wow I didn't expect that yeah probably I see a big potential in the Asian market in specialty coffee. And I think that consumers there are also more easier to convince, especially in countries where there isn't such a strong coffee culture in history. Like, say, France, Italy, the reason why specialty coffee is taking a long time to grow is also because there's such a strong espresso culture tied to this place. And to change that, people's license from consuming, like, a burnt espresso to specialty coffee is a long process. But in Asia, where we don't have such a strong coffee culture in most places. I think it's almost like a newer population where you can teach them new things and they will just absorb all the information. And I personally love Thailand. It's one of my favorite countries traveling to you. So why not? I think the population population is, and we were at Thailand Kossy Fest actually last month. And so my colleague was there, Marco, and he was just like, wow, these people are crazy. Like super curious, really wanted to try, really wanted to buy. And in Europe, it's not like that. No? I think people are more like... Okay. People are more calm. So they're not as easy as Thai customer to please. Yeah. Maybe not just Thailand. Maybe in Asia. Like we've done a few festivals in Asia and I just feel like there, things move. People are excited when you're coming, especially from abroad. They're like, oh, wow, okay, this is something that I probably can't get here. Let me try. But whereas when you're in Europe and you're like, oh, I'm from Thailand or I'm from Hong Kong, they might not be so like, wow, you know, they don't have that. Wow, it's a foreign company. And yeah, I don't know. Somewhere in Asia, I think Thailand could be a good start. Hong Kong competition is probably too high in costs or too hard. Got it. So you must travel a lot of different places for different events, competitions. And in your experience, which country do you think has the best coffee culture right now? Best coffee culture. Well, I think it's obvious to see Australia. That's like the easy answer. But I think the next one, next to Australia, would probably be China. China. Okay. Have you been there? I have. So I was in Shanghai, actually, earlier this year in April, I think. Actually, I just went to meet my friend Zoyang to have a little bit of training for Kampal Street. And I got the chance to visit some coffee shops and taste a lot of different coffees.
Innovative Coffee Culture in China
00:25:06
Speaker
I think the level of China is super high. I think that in China, what is amazing is there's like a new style of coffee shop. So for instance, like when I asked my friend Zoe, I'm like, oh, where should I go? And then her first question was, okay, do you want filter? Do you want espresso? Or do you want like coffee cocktail? And I'm like, I don't know, everything. She's like, well, no, because in China, everything is very like focused. So for instance, I went to a coffee shop called OPS there. Yeah. And they're like four or five. Yeah, they're like four or five menus. Yeah, they're like four or five cocktails, coffee-based cocktails. And they were really, really really good and the baristas kind of just make it in front of you you can have it to go you can have it there and there's a long line um even before the shop opened and then you can go to like um other coffee shops that are more focused on like something are so yeah and it's like like, that's that's like like you you have have two two floors. floors downstairs Downstairs, it's it's like like you you have have cocktails cocktails. upstairs Upstairs, it's it's like you have the same coffee, but like espresso, filter, and then like a natural culture or something like that. But for me, it was eye-opening to see like a random Chinese lady in her 50s, 60s coming in, having her coffee. You know, it's like, wow, you can't get that in France. Like, the usual clients I get are the ones that come in, old French fans, and you're like, two euros, 60 for an espresso? Are you kidding me? And then you just walk out. And you're like trying to explain something. Like, that's really not expensive for what I'm serving. And I've also heard a lot of friends that went to different Chinese expos and they're like, yeah, Chinese is crazy. And we will also send orders over to China, people there who really want to buy the good stuff or you go on like and you see this huge coffee community there in China that is growing. For me, I think China is like the next yeah the next Australia if I can say yeah that's amazing actually we have been living in China for for more than a year since last last March and a coffee culture here has really blown us away so in Shanghai alone I as I remember they are around 6,000 coffee shops there, and people are willing to pay premium prices for competing competition-level bath beans. Exactly. Since you have famous grocery, do you ship coffee to China? Do you have Chinese customers as well? Yes. So I think it was it was hard. It's hard. The thing about China is it's very hard to export over there. And even for them to import beans from like further from specific farms, like shipping costs are super high. And then they're like taxes and coffee in China. That's the hardest part. Okay. How about your roasting business? Are most your customers local or do you have a big international client base? I don't know. But I think right now it's still local. Like for sure we have like guests all over the world. But local is definitely like the bigger market and we're also trying to develop um the market within champagne just within the city within the region because we come from like such a such a famous prestigious region in rural France where people drink a very very good champagne but coffee doesn't exist here. So it's also a good thing that we're here because it's almost easier to come with these people in champagne to drink good coffee because they're already used to drinking good things, if that makes sense. All right. Have you ever thought about creating a signature drink that combines coffee and champagne since you're in such a famous region for that? No, no, I actually have never tried. Well, I did do like kind of like Americano once with champagne and coffee. But I think most of the champagne producers here are not very happy when I tell them, I made a cocktail with your champagne. Right. It sounds like you may need to charge a little bit extra just for that coffee, champagne, special signature drinks. Yeah. You have been in the coffee industry for quite a few years now with your own business and competing often. So where do you see the coffee industry heading in the next, let's say, 10 years, both globally and for yourself personally?
Future Prospects and Passions
00:29:51
Speaker
So yeah, I've been in this industry for almost four years now. I think that for me personally, I want to learn new things. So I want to keep coffee. I want to stay in coffee somehow, but I might not want to just focus on coffee in the future. In 10 years, I want to be, I don't know, could be working in line. I could be doing other things. Okay. How about becoming a boxer? Oh, yeah. Why not? I have always boxed. I started when I was really young. And that's what I always say. I'm like, okay, after coffee competitions, I'll probably do some Muay Thai matches and compete in that. But at the same time, I'm also getting older. So, like, I can't wait for too long. Maybe. Maybe if I don't compete for Barista Brewers Cup next year, I'll do a Muay Thai thai match all right let's switch the gears a bit how about we talk about something outside of coffee world for a change and if you don't do coffee anymore what else will you would you like to do there are too too many things i want to do um i love traveling i think I'm someone that cannot be put in one place for a very long amount of time. So I need a career that allows me to move around a lot. Either be, I don't know, anything's possible. Working in the export industry or maybe like bringing Warren Champagne to Hong Kong, an airline pilot. I don't know. For me, the world is huge. I'm open to doing anything else really. But I'm also very passionate about like tasting, smelling. Besides coffee, I'm also very into niche perfume. I'm into wine. So any niche industries like this could be something potentially that I'd be interested in. Yeah, you mentioned perfume. I don't know much about that industry. Maybe you can tell us more about that. Is this something similar to specialty coffee? So I didn't know this industry existed, niche perfumes, until I moved to France. And so I, because I also live in Paris, so there are a lot of small perfume shops where you can get high quality perfume made by like smaller perfumaries and it's kind of like specialty coffee but for perfume. So in the beginning when I smelled perfume I always thought okay you have the big brands of all these like you know French clothing brands, perfume brands or makeup brands and then you dive into like the niche industry and you realize wow it, it's like a whole new level. It's like specialty coffee, but like 90 plus. And it's really cool because you see the same people who are kind of like, I don't know how to put it, but I guess the people who are in niche perfume are like people who are doing like competitions in specialty coffee. Because they're trying to tell you, okay, this perfume is so complex. It smells like 50,000 things. It evolves. You have this note, middle note. You have these different enzymes or molecules. And then in coffee, you're like, yeah, this one is like a panamagasia, neuro anaerobic fermentation, whatever, 1,900 meters above sea level. And in perfume, you have the exact same thing. That's really fascinating. As a regular consumer, you won't know that. When you go to Sephora, you go to get a little less like this. That's not what you get. Kind of like when you go its own to, I don't know. world Has of experts who dive in really deep into the very tiny details. It's almost like there is a hidden language or a layer of understanding for only reviews that is solved once you're fully immersed in it. And for most people, they don't get the experience that when they are picking up a product at the store, whether it's a coffee at a supermarket or perfume, it seems that you really have to enter that world to appreciate everything that goes into it. And how about boxing? I mean, we got a connection with coffee and perfume, wine. That makes sense, right? But multi-boxing, that's not something that we usually hear about from a coffee people barista or outside thailand so how did you get into that yeah i think how did i get into boxing so i'm a very like i'm someone that has quite a lot of energy, I think. And I need to release my stress and my energy somehow. Okay. And boxing was something I started when I was 14. And ever since my first class, I just loved it. Like, how I felt after my class, like, you release so much energy and so much about cardio and it's so much about like using your different muscles as well. And you learn so much about like discipline and about yourself as well. And yeah, I don't know. It kind of just calms me down. I'm not that good. I mean, I'm not that good. I used to be better when I trained a lot. Right, I'm like pretty rusty because it's been a long time. I haven't practiced like on a regular basis. But yeah, there were periods where I was supposed to compete. I just didn't. It sounds like you're naturally drawn to competitions, whether it's coffee or boxing. You've accomplished a lot, actually, just in four or five years in coffee world. To many people, that may not seem to be very long, but your result, your achievements definitely is very impressive. And do you have any advices for those who are just starting out like new baristas who want to grow in the coffee industry? Hi, Nian there. I think if you're doing what you love, if you're doing what you care about, what you think represents you as a brand, it's a matter of time as well. You need patience. Doing competition is definitely something that could help. If you want a change in environment, if you want to meet more people, if you want to challenge yourself, why not try a competition? I think in the beginning, I didn't think this is something I would like. But then after your first competition, you kind of get addicted. Yeah, just keep going. It's so cliche to say, but don't give up because one day you'll get there. Yeah, thank you. Those are good tips. But I also got this feeling that not everybody finds it easy to stay in the coffee industry for a longer time. That can be really challenging, you know, like low salaries for baristas and tough situation for farmers that might push some people to leave. So here's a bit of an unusual question for you. In your opinion, what kind of people may not be a good fit for the coffee world? This is maybe a little selfish to say, but I think for me, people who don't really care about the product itself or people who don't really care about, yeah, where the coffee's coming from, who is working behind it, what does it taste like. If people are just taking the business approach or if people just want to get into coffee to make money, I think that's maybe not the industry for you because coffee is a very passion-oriented industry. You have to really like it or love it even to do something substantial, I think, in this industry and to also stay in this industry, it's a lot of hard work like any other smaller industries in hospitality or food and beverage. It's really tough. So if you're not ready for the hard work and if you're not passionate enough, maybe some other industry would be more suited to you. Right. That makes sense. The coffee industry has been growing really, really fast in the recent years, and especially when the other industry in comparison kind of slowed down. With all the interest in investment, it's understandable that a lot of people and businesses are drawn into the coffee industry, which is, well, makes sense. I actually just remember that some of the coffee trend or social media trend a while back saying that paying more for your coffee as a way to support farmers directly. As a roaster and business owner, what is your take on that? Does it really make sense and actually make a difference? Pay more for your coffee to help your farmers. How? I don't know. Okay. Because I'm also a barista. I'm behind the bar, so I get to meet a lot of my clients and sometimes some clients that are not used to paying a little bit more for specialty coffee. My biggest challenge is always justifying, or for me, I shouldn't have to justify the price, but because it's not what they're used to, I always have to explain to them why we are a little bit more expensive than regular coffee shops that don't do specialty coffee. I think it's marketing. I think most people who are willing to pay for specialty coffee are also people who care a lot about taste. It's kind of like wine. Some bottles are worth a lot of money. And the people that buy these bottles are maybe not the people who will dig into everything about this producer. How does he make it? It's worth more because it tastes better. So I think as a consumer, not everyone is willing to do charity every day. You know, it's like, oh, I want to help the producer. I want to help this person. I'm going to pay more. I think as a consumer, people are trying to lower costs and especially the economy is not doing super well nowadays. They just want their caffeine dose a lot of the time. If there are three coffee shops and they all do the same kind of quality coffee, same service, then they probably will go to the cheaper one. I don't know. I hope that this would work. For me, it would also be nice to help some producers. There are definitely some producers who are smaller that struggle more with making enough money from their coffees. But I also think as a consumer, consumers need also to stay educated to understand the cost of what they're actually consuming. Have you had the chance to visit any coffee origins? What was that experience like for you?
Visit to a Brazilian Coffee Farm
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Speaker
Yeah, so I actually, I just came back from Brazil last month. I was very lucky. I got invited to go to Datiera to visit the farm with some other baristas from all around the world. And I had the best, best experience. So we spent a bit more than a week at the Tierra visiting their farm. And us baristas, there were 10 of us, 11 of us. And we got to pick our own coffee cherry. And then we got to choose our fermentation method. We got to process dry and then afterwards roast it. And it was like a competition for baristas to produce coffee. So to see like, are baristas actually capable of producing their actual coffee? So it was a lot of fun because you would expect, okay, like all the coffees would probably taste around the same. But different people took different ingredients, different yeast. And in the end, like all cups were very different. And it was such a good experience because sometimes as a barista, I'm always telling my clients that, okay, this anaerobic fermentation of 96 hours, and now this brings like liquor notes, red wine. But before visiting the farm, I didn't actually know how all of this looked like. So it was insane to kind of see the amount of hard work that it takes behind a cup of coffee. For instance, during my competition script, I always say fully ripe coffee cherries are hand-picked or something like that. This sounds so easy to say, but picking ripe cherries by hand is also a lot of work. And when we had a small bucket to fill up, and it took me like almost two hours to fill that up, I was like, wow, imagine how much work it actually goes behind all the coffees that I buy from my roastery. So I think this experience was just so enriching for anyone that works in coffee to understand better what is happening before the green beans are actually sent over. Absolutely. If everybody in the coffee industry had the chance, I would say it's about one day or two two as a farmer would be eye-opening. It gives you this new perspective on how much hard work goes into producing each bean. And that is why it's so important for everybody in the coffee industry and even coffee consumers to contribute in some way, big or small, to support those people who make all this possible, whether it's paying a bit more to those brands who prioritize fair practices or small actions can add up to create a meaningful change for coffee farmers. And well, Charity, it has been such a pleasure having you on our podcast today. Thank you for sharing your story and your passion with us. Thank you. Thank you, Ricky. Thanks for tuning in to this I'm Not a Barista episode. Subscribe to this podcast and follow us on Instagram at IamNotABarista for more empowering vibes and true coffee stories that connect you with coffee lovers around the world.