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Voice of the Mountains: Shift Your Understanding with guest Lydia Bradey
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On the third episode of Voice of the Mountains, Steve welcomes the pioneering climber Lydia Brady, who created a life of climbing through windows when the doors were slammed. She became the first female climber to summit Everest without oxygen in 1988 along with many first ascents worldwide. From big walls, to alpine climbs, Lydia has made her mark on the climbing world as a leader in her own climbing and a mountain guide. Unfortunately she faced tremendous doubt and scrutiny with her ascent and faced a ten year ban from climbing in the Himalaya. Steve and Lydia tackle the questions of whether the harder the journey, the greater the shift good journeys end with your understanding of yourself shifted? They also discuss how Lydia wishes to be remembered and what goals she has for her future. Tune in, sit down, and get ready to listen to both Lydia's humility and a lifetime of hard earned wisdom.
Visit the Voice of the Mountains website at: https://uphillathlete.com/voiceofthemountains/
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Transcript
Rosa Parks and Civil Rights Movement
00:00:04
Speaker
1955, Alabama, Rosa Parks. She should not have sat down in the front of that bus, but she did, and in doing so helped start the revolution we now call the Civil Rights Movement.
Personal Challenge in Karakoram
00:00:17
Speaker
Karakoram, 2003. People thought it was impossible to acclimate K-7 in a single nonstop push, alone. So when I started working on it, I was alone. No one followed me, no one cheered for me. No one noticed at all. I was a crazy one trying a crazy thing.
Impossible vs. Inappropriate Actions
00:00:38
Speaker
Today we will explore the difference between doing what you should not do and what people believe you cannot do. The laws of physics are, after all, the only immutable law and no amount of crazy can break them. Doing the impossible changes you. Doing what you shouldn't changes everyone.
Introduction to Lydia Brady
00:01:03
Speaker
should nonce come in many forms, and pioneering climber Lydia Brady has unassumingly and persistently created a life of climbing through windows when the doors were slammed in her face. They say that pioneers get arrows and settlers get land. To be a groundbreaking female climber meant taking a lot of arrows. When she climbed Everest without the use of bottle oxygen in 1988, the most famous seasoned and medius avi guides on the planet went on the record publicly calling her a liar. Half her team had died climbing Everest's southwest face.
00:01:46
Speaker
Coming home with her own accomplishment publicly stripped from her, she bore both immense grief and the threat of a ten-year ban on climbing in her beloved Nepal.
Climbing Everest without Supplemental Oxygen
00:01:58
Speaker
What is a good journey, and how is the journey of a pioneer different from the journey of the proverbial settlers that follow? Today women continue to climb Everest with and without supplemental oxygen, and no one doubts they can do it. And no one calls them a liar when they do.
Personal Transformation through Challenges
00:02:17
Speaker
And yes, as we will hear from Lydia, she had her own Me Too experience on Everest in 1988. Does it follow then that the harder the journey, the greater the shift? Good journeys end with your understanding of yourself shifted.
00:02:38
Speaker
I had the opportunity to ask Lydia one question. How do you want to be remembered? Her response will surprise you. So tune in, sit down, and get ready to listen to both Lydia's humility and a lifetime of hard-earned wisdom.
Voice of the Mountains Podcast
00:03:00
Speaker
From uphill athlete, I am founder and CEO Steve House and this is Voice of the Mountains, where we explore the philosophy and humanity of mountain sports. This is where we ask ourselves who we are, what we learn, and who we want to become as a result of our adventures. This is Voice of the Mountains.
Lydia Brady's Climbing Achievements
00:03:21
Speaker
It is my great privilege to have Lydia Brady joining me today. Lydia is a world-class climber and mountain guide who fell in love with climbing as a teenager in her native New Zealand. She quickly rose through the climbing ranks and did a lot of first ascents worldwide from Yosemite Valley to the United States to Pakistan, China, and the Antarctic Peninsula.
00:03:44
Speaker
One of her crowning achievements came in 1988 when she became the first woman to climb Everest without supplemental oxygen. Lydia is a physiotherapist, an acupuncturist, and an inspirational speaker, and a sought-after ski and climbing guide. She has led groups in Europe, Kashmir, and Kyrgyzstan, and she has guided her guests to the top of Everest no less than six times, more than any other woman in history. For her contributions to climbing, she was appointed an officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit at the 2020 New Year's Honors. I don't know. do that do you Do you have a title I should use, Lydia? Should I call you Lydia Midam, Your Highness? No, I know Highness is way too high. I mean, from the top of Everest, I don't know. It doesn't get higher than that. and I think we'll work on that on the on the podcast.
00:04:38
Speaker
Okay, great. We'll work out your title.
Mindset of Doing the Impossible
00:04:41
Speaker
ah Lydia published her book, Going Up is Easy in 2015, recounting her accomplishments and the challenges she faced in her several decades of climbing. Lydia, it's it's really great to have you. Welcome to Voice of the Mountains. Thank you. ah Thank you for inviting me to come and join you on this what inspirational sounding podcast. yeah It's a different kind of adventure. It's a little bit more of an adventure in ideas and reflection and and vulnerability and sharing. And I think that I have a feeling that you have a lot to share with her with our audience. Before I ask the first question, I want to just sort of be honest right out of the gate.
00:05:25
Speaker
i I'm fast. The reason I had you here is that I'm fascinated by pioneers and you have been a pioneer simply by how you've lived your life and but also how you've climbed over many years. I did hard climbs in my career, things that people thought were impossible. But there's a huge difference between doing something that people say you cannot do and doing something that people say you should not do. And you have been a person that has sort of systematically it seems like and what I see from your career and your life.
00:06:01
Speaker
dismissed the should nots and just been more of a why not kind of gal. um How does that land for you? Am I reading too much into your personality?
Inspiration and Societal Norms
00:06:13
Speaker
I mean, we've only just met, we've never met in real life. But when I, you know, remember seeing you on the cover of Summit Magazine in 1988 with an article about your climb and so on. you know I mean, I was a 17-year-old kid really interested in mountaineering and climbing, and I was just like, you know like you had gone to the moon for me. Well, that's amazing. ah Thank you. When you're reading this out, I sort of feel this, if you're describing somebody else,
00:06:46
Speaker
i've not had the huge first ascent list that quite a lot of people have had, but thank you. Perhaps I've done a few things in the Himalayas in my early days that I maybe shouldn't have done, but when I'm i'm actually, I'm going to riposte with a question so that I can answer my your question more specifically, and that is when you say should not, do you mean should not in
00:07:17
Speaker
social terms like I didn't have a permit to climb the route that I was on on Everest, for example. What I was thinking about was that you should not climb Everest without oxygen. ah you know I mean, 1988 was only 10 years after 1978 when Reinhold and Peter climbed it without oxygen for the first time. And they had been told that they were going to come down and be vegetables for the rest of their lives. And, you know, I don't know how many people had climbed Everest without supplemental oxygen between 1978 and 1988, but I bet it wasn't very many. Let's go back to 1988,
Gender Attitudes in Mountaineering
00:07:57
Speaker
for that matter. Like, you know, it was very different. I mean, I can say, like, I was there too, but as a young man, it was chauvinistic. and
00:08:06
Speaker
the the attitude towards women was evolving, but it was different. I don't want to make this about your gender either. I mean, I want to make this about your experience. But gender is one dimension of your being and your personality and who you are.
Support and Skepticism in Expedition
00:08:20
Speaker
And you must have been having people tell you that you shouldn't do these things like climb Everest without a lot of oxygen. Well, it was quite funny because on Everest, we were a joint New Zealand, Slovak expedition. And as you say, the politics, ah the way of climbing, everything was quite different. For example, in the olden days or the golden days. Yeah.
00:08:45
Speaker
Then ah you know you had a liaison officer always, you still have a liaison officer, but in those days, and you'll know this, your liaison officer was there in case you couldn't climb the route that you were wanting to climb. In Pakistan, these Americans changed the route on Gashibrom I because the the glacier below the beginning of their route have been mined because it was so on border disputes between Pakistan and India. And that's a good reason. yeah And so their liaison obviously gave them a permit like that. And so, however, we
00:09:19
Speaker
They did go to Everest with the ambition to climb it without oxygen. This is me and my New Zealand team. and the joint The Slovak team also had the intention to climb Everest without oxygen. They had a much greater heritage in climbing. than we had, and a different route in mind, you know, the southwest face of Everest. So the only two-hour face you shouldn't climb Everest without oxygen was just the but sort of general, well, good luck, but... You know, it's pretty hard. Who knows what's going to happen? I hope she'll be all right. I'm sure they, people said that and discussed it. But we were pretty strong. I mean, in those days, you know, the French, everyone shared fixing of ropes on Everest. And so the French ah and another team, ah they they fixed the ropes through the ice ball, which is the ice ball was much smaller because there was more ice.
00:10:15
Speaker
So it was, I think it was maybe at least half of disrupted
Past vs. Modern Climbing
00:10:21
Speaker
terrain. And we fixed, largely fixed the ropes on the Lotzi face. So I was fixing the ropes on Lotzi face for the Buano male, a normal route with the Slovaks. And so we got strong. You know, People were carrying loads in those days. We were carrying loads up to Camp 1 and Camp 2. I mean, we had four shippers and nine climbers and two different routes. So, yeah, I think maybe it was more of a vibe of possibilities.
00:11:02
Speaker
m Interesting. And that's not saying that the people in the world who are climbing don't have that. It's just that probably they go to other places where there's more of a vibe of possibilities, which is now why you're seeing people turning up to Annapurna, men and women, and climbing it in 15 days without oxygen. You know, just the vibe of possibilities has shifted as it does in all climbing, whether it's rock or ice or ice skating or traveling to the moon. Yeah, that's just human. And what I think drives this is curiosity. So everyone is a climber at base camp in 1988.
00:11:48
Speaker
When I started guiding, and this is just a way ah sort of thoughtie into the future, if you like, when I started guiding and I was at Everest Base Camp and I was like, I met a ah team and they were Italian and they were there to try to climb Everest without oxygen or something like this, or another team was there to try the West Ridge and I was like really inspired and I came back to my guiding posse.
Guiding vs. Personal Climbing
00:12:11
Speaker
My big expedition was quite a few guides and there was a total disinterest. And I was like, how can you be just interested? This is really exciting. This is people trying really, really hard and it's going to be really interesting. But there was a whole guiding world and they're interested in other guides and how other guides are doing it and the ethics of how they're doing it and the strategy of how they're getting their clients up. They're fascinated by that.
00:12:37
Speaker
but they weren't engaged by time as being on Deborah. So there was this two different worlds, and I was kind of standing at the crossroads going left and right, just going, this is ah amazing. That's really interesting. Attitudes change, yeah. And then on a micro level, you know, we, these guys on my expedition, these Slovaks, you know, I said, Oh, when I met them um on the walk-in to Everest, so I funny and I go to Peter Bozic, who had just put up the magic line on K2 in 86, wasn't it? When all the 50% of the people on K2 died in a big bad year. And, and I said, well I didn't know that at the time. And I go, Oh, hi. And have you been to the Himalayas before?
00:13:22
Speaker
And he goes, ah, we don't you wrote South Face blah, blah, blah, we don't you wrote East Peak, Kenshin jungle, we don't you wrote, you know, and ah everywhere he'd gone to 8,000 meter peaks, he'd done a first ascent. They were experienced. Then
Earning Respect in a Chauvinistic Team
00:13:39
Speaker
as the expedition went by, they throw occasionally they'd throw out a line like, ah, you know, mountain's not a good place for women. Then they'd go, but you very strong. you know And I'd be going, yes, I've earned my place.
00:13:55
Speaker
And so it was super interesting that this very chauvinistic, if you like, a cohort of men, there were four climbers, Slavic climbers, and two of them, they were kind of, they were really nice and they were, but that was sort of quite staidly chauvinistic, if you like. as as we're my New Zealand team. but ah But the other two, I made two of the best friends I'd ever made in my life. You know, it's Peter Bosick with the Magic Lion and K2 and this guy called Yaro Yasuko, much younger, and they were funny and they were curious. And this is what connected it.
Understanding Strengths in Climbing
00:14:38
Speaker
And if you say what drove you to climb Everest without oxygen, ah people ask that, of course,
00:14:46
Speaker
And I just go, well, I'm a climber to begin with. So climbers are always curious about things and put it go in the area which is your strength. And my strengths was just the plod, plod, plod. You know, I'm a high-altitude hiker. You know, I can plod my way up and I could plod my way down and I could look after myself in a steep snow slope and keep going and keep going and keep going. So there's my strength. Technically, I'm not a whiz kid. I'm not, you know, super hardcore. I have to do things, endurance-y, but not super techy.
00:15:23
Speaker
And so that's my strength. And and then I could explore the mountain world in that way. So they were curious about their climate. And I was curious about that climate. and It's this curiosity that that drives this question of your podcast, you know, what are we, you know, what what do we learn and where do we want to go with our lives? Hmm. Thank you for that. I mean, for there's a bunch of things that you just said that I'd love to follow up on. I want to start by saying that the little line of pros, the muse, if you will, for our episode today is that good journeys end with your understanding of yourself shifted. I think that this is one of the things that unites
00:16:08
Speaker
mountain people. I don't care if you label yourself a plotter or a sport climber or a mountain runner or whatever it is. As you said, you're you're curious. And tell me more about that. Like, what is it that you're actually curious about, do you think? I mean, curiosity is a broad thing. What is it that, you know, you're curious, you say you're a climber, you're curious as to what you can climb and how much or what is the curiosity?
Curiosity as a Driving Force
00:16:33
Speaker
I think the curiosity is always shifting and it's a really dynamic, it's it's a thing. you know So one day, if i well when I go sport climbing, when I come to America, I'll be curious about and how I'll do on that rock. or
00:16:49
Speaker
And you know this. I mean, you're curious. That's why you have this podcast because you you've been it gives you authority to ask people a whole lot of things. So it's an approach. And i um I don't think I'm telling you this. I'm just saying it, you know, because I know you already know it. But it's an approach that I think is one of the biggest things that we can give people if you're if you've got children or ah people that you mentor or ah people who Seek inspiration. It's just like you have it. Just start with curiosity. And other people call it engagement. And or in order to learn from you, in order to be curious, you need to engage and you just get so much more back. To take it down to her like a microscopic level and to apply it to my Center of Everest in 1988. I remember sitting at camp three on the West Face of Lotzi, just going,
Mindset on Everest's Slopes
00:17:46
Speaker
looking up at the upper slopes of Everest above the South Pole. And I'm just going, look at this, you know, it's it's just a simple mountain. It's a simple New Zealand mountain. It's this, you know, snow and rock and you walk up the snow and la di da. But there's this big challenge up there and it's invisible. And it's how hard can it be? And it's not like, oh, how hard can it be? It's like, well, It's got to change. you know It's going to change. It changes when I get to 8,000 meters. What's it going to be like? How will I react? How can I manage it? you know What's it going to be like? What's it going to be like? What's it going to be like? So it was just this massive curiosity. Because I'd set myself up really well, I wasn't having to deal with, oh, I haven't drunk too much enough, or oh, I'm not fit enough, or I'm not acclimatized enough.
00:18:41
Speaker
everything was pretty fat. I was oh feeling good and I was really strong. So it was a luxury to be able to look up there and go, oh, how hard can it be? Not how hard can it be, but what's it going to be like? Hmm. I love that. But, you know, what is it about your mindset that said, how hard can it be instead of how hard can it be? The curiosity thing is what's it going to be like? How hard will it be? i
00:19:12
Speaker
I'm lucky enough to grow up with somebody who encouraged my curiosity. And I've always seen it as a thing. We come back to this again. Yeah, I've always seen it as a thing. So I um treasure it, you know, I value it, as opposed to being there going, I can't think how hard, I shouldn't think how hard will it be. I should just think I can do it, I can do it. And they're just different motivating factors. You know, you've got to pull on that drive of I can do this or I can do this and get down or I can get down from here. You know, you've got to draw on that anyway because you need to motivate. That's a good point. I mean, that was always that was very often something that I so have said to myself and my climbing where it's like, yeah, I can get down from here. So why can't I just go a little bit higher? You know, and I think that that is one of those
00:20:04
Speaker
One of those tricks, um an analogy would be I've used this with in-person coaching in the weight gym before, just with my training partners in the past when I used to train a lot. And they would be like, OK, put such and such a weight on. And it would be maybe close to their PR, but not over. And I put more on without telling them. And it would be a personal record for them. But and they would do it. because if they had known mentally that, oh, this is a personal record, it would have created all this anxiety and it would have reduced, you know, and they would have self-sabotaged, right? So that's a great mindset to have where you're like, yeah, I can
00:20:48
Speaker
Yeah, i'm I'm okay right now and I can get myself out of the situation for all the foreseeable future, everything I can foresee happening up there. And then you can sort of, maybe it's a trick, maybe it's not, but you can sort of trick yourself into like trying a little more when you, when you, especially when you're at the end of your rope and you're like, no, I'm still okay. Like I'm at the end of my rope, but you know, What difference would make if I go 50 meters more like it'll be fine like it doesn't actually change anything i might as well go 50 meters more and then you might as well go another 50 meters i might as well go and then you know and then you're on top. Yeah well this it's it's more than a trick it's a method to stay alive.
Survival Techniques in Expeditions
00:21:25
Speaker
If you don't keep checking that you can get down from here, then right it's more like you you are tricking yourself as well, aren't you? It's like, oh, everything will be all right. Can I get down from here? Yeah, I can get down from here. Okay, let's go. And then you've got your motivation, what's going to drive you forward, but you've got your self-preservation. and survival instinct. I think that too is key. ah If we encourage ourselves, if we encourage society or people or our children or whatever to be um curious or moving forward, you also need to encourage them to that it's cool, that it's okay to make sure that you can get down. And this is where the craft of mountaineering or the craft of
00:22:14
Speaker
a gardening, if you like, or the craft of being an ah athlete or even a writer is, you know, people who are great at something or people who are great crafts people are really good at doing the monotonous everyday things well. you know They're really good at checking their harness, their belay loop if you like, or they're really good at buddy checking, or they're really good at making sure their crampons are sharp because you know when you get on terrain that the the ice is very, very hard, you do need a sharp pair of crampons. Those sorts of things.
00:22:55
Speaker
Those kind of everyday things that can be seen as boring, but the people who are really good at the front end are often really, really good at those sorts of things and they do them really quickly and they do them really well. And they don't stop doing them because they're number one, they just keep doing them and then they push their, there they do all their risks up at and the top end. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a great insight. And I think that is so true. You know, you said something that triggered my curiosity. Who was that person for you that encouraged your curiosity?
Role of Family in Building Resilience
00:23:30
Speaker
Oh, my mother, because that's all I had in my family. I didn't have any brothers and sisters or I didn't have a bigger brother.
00:23:36
Speaker
ah And I didn't have a father. I mean, he they my parents separated when I was being born. She brought me up So I wasn't the person she was because she didn't have a very nice childhood. So in the end, we were very, very different people, but she did a pretty good job except that she knew I was a bit of a wild child. She thought I'd get into really, really big trouble when I was a teenager. I had a proverbial chip on my shoulder. Whatever. but Half of us do and the other half don't. They're lucky or whatever.
00:24:14
Speaker
Yeah, unlucky, depending on the perspective, right? like um You know, one you have to expose yourself a little. Yeah, well, You know, one of the mutual friends that I called upon when I was going to ah knew I was going to talk to you it was Guy Carter. And and what this was exactly one of the things that Guy said. He was like, he was a bit of a wild child in her youth. He didn't expound on that and I didn't ask him to. um But the question that came to my mind and what I actually wrote down is ah along with that note is if there's if that's part of why you seek these journeys.
00:24:55
Speaker
I mean, your journeys happen to be in the mountains, and you've already alluded to you know these different kinds of crafts, whether it's writing or other sports or whatever. Did this chip on your shoulder, did this wild inner wild child, was that somebody who drove you to to to do things like go to Yosemite? I don't know, when when did you go to Yosemite? like paint Paint that for me. You were like 18, 19, something like that. You show up in Yosemite Valley and lu teacher can find some people and go climb some big walls.
00:25:28
Speaker
Yeah. that ah That was the best thing to do when you were nine. I was 19, 19 and 20. Oh my God. So good. So ah those days, of course, there wasn't sport climbing. yeah What year was it? Well, there may have been sport climbing. Oh, it was in 1981. There was not sport climbing. Well, anyway, there certainly wasn't sport climbing in Aotearoa, New Zealand. yeah And but I wasn't, as you um as you know, from reading my um writing to me and reading my book, I was really bad at sports.
Youth Challenges and Strengths
00:26:00
Speaker
So ah i kind of I wasn't strong. I mean, and my legs were strong, and the rest of me wasn't very strong. And I wasn't gymnastic, like I couldn't do a handstand, even against the wall.
00:26:14
Speaker
and my hand-eye coordination. I didn't really catch balls very well. And I didn't learn fast in those areas either. And so, you know, failure, failure, failure. And so I wait, whose voice was that this failure, failure, failure? Whose voice was that? Your my voice, of course. OK, OK. But also, you know, you're a kid, you know, if yeah, it's not necessarily been a voice. It's just an experience of being last. Yeah. And teased because I kind of walked funny. I was a little bit wonky and not wonky was stiff or whatever. And I was teased for walking funny and
00:26:55
Speaker
You know, things like that, formative moments. Yes. By the time I had discovered the mountains or, no, I should say when I had, when I discovered mountains, through what we call tramping, which is hiking, but off-trail hiking. So it's pretty full-on hiking. And ah then I realized that there was other ways to achieve goals, goals that you may not even be able to describe ah because you were young and inexperienced, and ah but physical goals.
Mountaineering as Personal Growth Avenue
00:27:33
Speaker
So I could be a physical person in this new environment
00:27:38
Speaker
because I had other skills and doing a handstand and catching a ball wasn't that important. And people seem to forgive me if I wasn't very brave at down climbing and things like this. And I got stronger and stronger and I became better and better. And I also found out that so much of that is social because when you go in the mountains, you are living with people, you are managing ah your experience was well say I was with one other person or two other people or three other people depending on who you were hiking or tramping or mountaineering with and therefore it's partly become social and so you're bringing other skills in and and those lessons are about
00:28:20
Speaker
Say if you like achieving a goal, which might become becoming a physical person or recognizing you can achieve a goal via a different route. So then this concept has opened a massive door, la de da, go mountaineering, ah go to Alaska, because everyone in New Zealand was going to Peru, so I decided to go to Alaska, because it was more interesting, I didn't know anything about it. And then come down through the lower 48 into Yosemite, and I'd done a little bit of rock climbing as Squamish, and I wasn't very brave, but one person had taken me on a wall that was A1, and you know the grand walls,
00:29:04
Speaker
ah One of the routes was A1 or something like this, maybe A2. and I realized there was another way to be up there. And when I got to Yosemite, and it was all about big walls, and of course, and people would talk about being up there, and then they'd have the come down, they'd have these experiences, and these stories, and experiences and stories were really what drove me as well. And not stories so that I could tell, but stories that are inside of me. And so I,
00:29:38
Speaker
Realize that through a climbing, I could get up there. It's just a different route, a different way to experience this and have the same experiences as my friends. so Yeah. So I started a climbing and yeah. What's the difference between a story and a journey and an experience? Well, everything's an experience, like having a wasabi ice cream could be considered an experience. That's definitely an experience. um no it's and actually not a very interesting It's not a particularly interesting experience. Okay. Sounds interesting. Sounds interesting. Yeah. So what do you, you know, the yeah they got my two dollars.
00:30:19
Speaker
ah Yeah. And that's pretty boring, actually. yeah um So, you know, you you go say, oh, this will be an experience. oh Actually, it's not much of an experience. or It's the same as watching a movie, isn't it? Oh, and this
Accumulating Experiences into Stories
00:30:32
Speaker
could be. I really love watching this person's movies. Oh, well, it wasn't as good an experience. You know, that's the whole way of. Well, hang on. What was the thing? Experience. Journeys and stories you were talking about like people would go up on these walls and come back with experiences and stories like okay And you wanted these stories within yourself and yeah just trying to figure out if that's the same I don't you think a whole lot of experiences add up into a journey and sometimes those journeys make good stories Actually most of the time
00:31:07
Speaker
Honestly, it depends on to whom you're speaking. Now, let's use the example of climbing Mount Everest. Climbing Mount Everest um can be done in lots of ways. You can either be unassisted, which means you don't use fixed ropes, then you could climb up and climb up without oxygen, and youre or climb up by a different route. like yeah All these different routes on Everest used to be climbed all the time, like the north route, and then the panicles got done. and and um And then all these different, the south-west phase got climbed a couple of times, the three times actually, didn't it? I'm sure maybe made me more than that now. but Yeah, there was the Australian route that, you know, those guys did on the north side. Oh yes, the White Limbo. white embo
00:31:53
Speaker
Yep. I know. All these people used to climb all these different routes. And nobody's, not that many people climbing all these different routes anymore. So there's plenty of room anyway. Their experience climbing a different route or a new route or even repeating an old route without oxygen and without support would be really, really different.
Learning from Experienced Climbers
00:32:10
Speaker
Yeah. How did the journey of climbing Everest in 1988 shift your understanding of yourself? Oh, we'll slowly or quickly, uh, perhaps, uh, start with slowly. Start with slowly. Uh, no, maybe I should start with the short, uh, the, the fast learnings were how I did it at super altitude. Cause that's what I called it. No one called it the death zone. Please go back to super altitude. I like that way better than the death zone.
00:32:47
Speaker
I know it's super, super, yeah, super is such a great word. Super altitude in the deaths zone. yeah Well, that's for some people, but so is the street. Yeah. Yeah. So is being in your 90s. Yeah. The short learnings were thing. and And sometimes they're learnings that you you don't, you reaffirm. For example, what I was going to say and way back was when I started tramping, hiking without trails. And when I started mountaineering, I realized that I could ah hang out with the people who were really experienced and they were happy to spend time with me and give me their time. And therefore I could learn a lot from them um and also a achieve better than on my own.
00:33:35
Speaker
if I pulled my share of the chores. So, you know, I'll go and kind collect more snow because they're basically making the decisions. So you have to recognize what they bring, have to honor it, and you bring what you can. And I'm funny. I mean, and people like to laugh and they like to wake up and then goof off rather than wake up and then have seriousness in the tent and yes and melting the snow and you know it's it's cool to create stories and so if you can give this to people you can give your positivity to them then they can give what they have and it's an exchange you know and they realize you've gone outside and got more snow or you've dug the tent out or or you've melted more snow than anyone else because
00:34:27
Speaker
They're better and they do their stuff. So you bring this to nowhere nowhere where we are. Can i we we stop on that for a second? Because I think that that that is such a great analogy for so many things, right? Like you could be talking about. being a young mountain guide, you know, or you could be talking about being a junior doctor working with a senior doctor that's been practicing for 35 years or a young physiotherapist or a a veteran.
00:34:59
Speaker
I wish somebody had spelled it out for me like that when I was young. You don't actually realize that until later, right? Like if I reflect on my first expedition when I was 20, I went to Nagaparabhat with a very experienced group of people, five of whom had climbed 8,000 meter peaks. that's it you know, so much of what we learned was just around the cook stove, you know, and around the the bowl of french fries and around the teapot. That's where I actually learned the most on that trip. That you ah you've put the nail on the head for me for my Everest expedition and also for K2 and a lot because I hung out with some ah Slovenians. They're such hardcore. And then my Slovaks were so hardcore and get
00:35:46
Speaker
you learned so much from them, but you had to already have a humble corner of your stroppy 20 year old brain to go, yeah, I can learn a whole lot from these guys. You were probably so busy learning, you didn't quite put it into perspective. No. Of some things, but hey, you know, you're... As a kid. You were already so busy learning. Yeah, and and you were being, you got invited, so you weren't a totally boring person to be with.
00:36:19
Speaker
Well, you could be. What were you like when you were 20? I think I was actually pretty quiet for the most part. And I was in awe of these people most of the time and in awe of that place for all the time. and feeling very much like an imposter 99% of the time. And you know, frankly, I mean, that is also a reason I did bring a lot of snow. You know, I did, i I never took the lead. I never did anything by the front of the team. I was always in the back carrying the loads, setting, you know, I want to go back to the kind of digging in. So these were the
00:36:56
Speaker
Short-term what you became after Everest was some of these things what were and but you said there was also some Long-term, I mean is this what what we're talking are we segueing into that? oh Yeah, yeah, yeah, but ah yeah, so the fallout I mean, I don't want to so I didn't want to make it and maybe and I would like you to just describe you know, the fallout, as you as you put it, very briefly, because I don't want this talk to be about that. I want this to be about, but that was certainly part of your journey, part of your experience of of Everest was having especially the years to follow.
00:37:31
Speaker
It was a type four fun, you know, that never sounded like a good idea at the time, wasn't very good to deal with. But yeah, stories make it formative. Yeah, I think the best thing, especially for people who don't know the story and God, how many times have I been asked the story, which I'm, and this is not you because you you totally get it, but often it obscures the fact that, hey, I did a cool climb. Yeah, I don't just want to talk about the um but but it was a hashtag me to it was a hashtag me to situation. I set myself up. I was a bit of a wild child. I was the one who you know, I didn't sleep with the right people.
00:38:13
Speaker
And I slept with the wrong people. And I made, as Rob Hall, the guy who the Everest movie was made about um largely, as he said, you know, I always hung out with the cool people. I didn't see that. I just hung out with the people who had that really positive approach and opened the door for people who carried the loads. exactly
Aftermath of Everest Climb
00:38:36
Speaker
what you were talking about on Nangaparbat. And I just want to segue back to this, that doing the stuff in the background in order to learn the stuff in the foreground um is what is what and entitlement obscures the opportunity to do that. Sure does.
00:38:53
Speaker
So if you feel that you're entitled to be there or you're entitled to have something, that whole concept of entitlement and second generation wealth, you know this as we as mountain guides have seen a lot, it obscures your opportunity to be part of this learning and growing team. It's actually a disability. But anyway, so they but the fallout was ah my team my New Zealand teammates who hadn't been successful on their final ah attempt on Everest. So they stated that it wasn't possible that I'd salvored at Everest.
00:39:32
Speaker
and Of course, it's a male-dominated society as it still is, of course, and la di da. And so things weren't really pear-shaped after I got down from the summit. To add to it, 50% of my expedition died, which are all the Slovaks. They died on the descent from, down the normal route, from climbing the southwest face of Everest, Alpine style, and without oxygen. So, yes, that was a formative few years And so you're you're managing, you come off of this climb, you you're managing, first of all, that you you just climbed Everest without subliminal oxygen. I mean, that's that's just an incredible achievement by any measure for anyone. Without ropes from the South Pole.
00:40:19
Speaker
No ropes on the south. No ropes above the south call either. Wow. Oh, a little rope. One one little tight rope on the Hillary step. One little rope, but not on the traverse around it. You've just accomplished this, and which is just all kinds of incredible. And then you are also managing that you your friends that you've made on this trip that you are speaking very highly of. You clearly cared a lot for them. Go missing. They're gone. you know then you have people saying that you there's no way you could have done what you say you did. Those people were um Rob and Gary, and then it was the reporters, and then that's where the ripple came from. Yeah. And this is all part of your journey.
Coping with Public Skepticism
00:41:06
Speaker
Yeah. And this journey shifted
00:41:09
Speaker
a lot in you, I can imagine. I mean, any one of those things would affect someone indelibly, right? Yeah, yeah. No, I was pretty lucky that, I mean, obviously, I guess, you know, terms like I went into a dark space, you know. I obviously got ah depressed, if you like, but not bad. It was pretty horrible having people say that you're a liar. but there were Two things going on is that You know, I wanted to go back and climb and in those days you either got banned, I have to say, remember I said, or the pot where you would know the politics were quite different so that if you did a route without a permit, you either did it as part of the team and then you and the leader of the team would get penalized. The rest of the team wouldn't and you would get fined. And the penalized would either be 10 years of banning from climbing in Nepal or five years.
00:42:04
Speaker
and And depending on how bad you are, that that was at that time, that was my understanding and it seemed consistent because we knew other people who'd done things like that. and oh um But ah if you left the team, and this is, I i'd talked to my liaison officer before I'd gone up, because I knew there was major consequences. Once I got out to the politics, ah because the New Zealand guys had made official statements that it was not possible that I would, that it was not possible that I climbed Everest without, I climbed Everest. What else? Oh, so yeah, no, that was a dark time.
00:42:41
Speaker
Yeah. So what was that? So the dark time wasn't, was it from achieving your goal? Like, I mean, I certainly had that, like from achieving goals, you know, there's sort of a high and then it's just like, Oh, I don't have a goal now. What the hell do I do with my life? I've never had that. People talk about that. They talk about post party. You know, when you have a really big party, cause you've turned 50 or 60 or something or 40. Um, and and there's post party. low or post-expedition. I've never had that. So it wasn't that for you? No, no, it wasn't. But it was, you know, you were being publicly called a liar. yeah ah You were having this ah incredible achievement.
00:43:20
Speaker
by implications completely stripped from you like that's not what you did even though you you you know that you did it you were changed by it how did all that change you like how did this dark time change you like did it change your perspective on life, on climbing, on expeditions. and Did you learn what lessons came? You know, it's like maybe it's the analogy is going back to the 20-year-old me or the young you on those expeditions and you know, you weren't seeing what lessons were being offered you at the time as is so often the case with these and then later you make meaning out of it either creatively or or objectively, I don't know, but like what kind of things came from that journey for you?
00:44:04
Speaker
Lots and lots of things, as you said, quite some time later. And I knew at the time there would be learnings, but at the time for the first few couple of years until, ah you know, quite a few mountaineering ah researchers, so three particular mountaineering researchers did you know, some stories about it and had talked to people and rung up people and put two and two together, then I just had to deal with ah being the object of sometimes derision. And I didn't publicly
00:44:50
Speaker
stand up and defend it for two reasons. Initially, for one reason, and that was because I didn't say to the Ministry of Tourism that I did climate because my I didn't know what to do. you know And I was looking at a 10-year ban and my goal was to go back and climb it. I saw the West Pillar on Makalu and I just go, I don't know if I could do anything like that, but that's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And it was in this beautiful mountain and the sun was setting on it and it was like, Oh, it's just so gorgeous. And I was coming down the down Everest and I was like, Oh my, because I've got these guys who are saying I didn't summit and I'm in a male dominated thing. So saying I did summit would then make the Nepali kind of pissed off with me.
00:45:40
Speaker
um I didn't say, I didn't sum it. Far out. You know, I didn't know. The only Asian officer was saying what I should say. I was on my own. There was nobody to hang out with and talk to in Kathmandu, except my LO was giving me this advice. He said, I think you should say you just went on the wrong route accidentally too high and just leave it like that. And then nobody is, everyone can not have their, be embarrassed. I myself, and I'm sure everyone has been in situations where they
Persisting Through Controversy
00:46:09
Speaker
felt cornered and accused unjustly. And those are definitely not situations where I ever felt I found my best self. And so, you know, you were actually making what it sounds like really measured decisions. You're like, well, I don't want to publicly stand up because I want to go climb Makalu next year.
00:46:29
Speaker
Yeah, I don't want a public stand up because a whole lot of guys have said I haven't, two guys, three guys have said I haven't done it and I'm in a mail. Okay. So we're not on uneven planes. And then that is utterly key. And everyone likes controversy. So, you know, you're sitting in a hotel, five telephones are going because there's not the internet, and they're from different countries saying, ah, they say that you're a liar, did you really? Oh, where's your photo? Now, I've climbed Aoraki Mount Cook by that time, about 14 times by different routes, which in New Zealand, highest mountain. I mean, I've climbed other mountains, of course, overseas. but ah And it's really a significant climb. It's grunty. And ah how many summit photos that I got?
00:47:15
Speaker
wow ah just we didn't have social media we didn't it wasn't part of the culture of the photo yeah And I took my camera and I was really, really careful. And I knew that I was going to be on my own. So I preorganized everything. And instead of having it around my neck, I put it on a little tripod in my pack. Ah, but I'd never frozen my camera before because I'd always had it hanging around my neck. And remember, it's not like millions of people are doing this. I was literally interviewed this morning by a German journalist about my experience on the summit of Nanga Parbat because they're still talking about what Reinhold and Gunther Masner experienced
00:48:00
Speaker
on their summit day in 1970. And what I said to him was, you know, no one can sit in the pub or in their living room and make judgments about what people did or didn't do above 8,000 meters because you're just, it's just a different
00:48:25
Speaker
You're just so barely surviving. You don't make the same decisions. You don't have the same cognitive abilities. And for those people that are listening that have never been to a super altitude, as we're going to call it now, until you've been up there, you just really don't honestly have any business saying what it's like or making judgments on people and what they did or didn't do or could or couldn't have done. No, it's great. No, it's really great. But also it's that like I'm really proud of the fact that I preempted my camera yeah situation. Well, I was actually really organized in my tent and I was super, super proud of everything was ready for me when I got back into my tent and you know, all these things that I was proud of. I was dialed.
00:49:10
Speaker
You know, I think that there's, there's two things I i want to pick up on. And and again, i I don't want to make, you know, you be your gender, but I do want to pick up on this side thing that you've said a couple of times that you had three well-respected male mountain guides saying that you hadn't done something. You know, you had people turning your successes into your failures.
00:49:38
Speaker
You know, that must've felt horrible. That must've felt... Yeah, but it happens to a lot of people. And so, i fortunately, I grew up with... And my family, my two-person family, we talked about people. We talked about whys and hows and things like this. so bits we And I knew life wasn't fair. If it was fair, I'd be really good at sports.
00:50:05
Speaker
No, if it was fair. And so I think and also I decided that in order for my mental survival, I had to assume that the good will prevail. And I had to trust that. Where did you get that idea? I mean, honestly, like, why didn't you think that I knew that the good might not prevail. ah I also knew that I wasn't going to fight it because but Rob Hall was way, way, way more savvy with the press than I was. And he was a man. And people weren't aside with things. And so I knew that even if I'm 100% right,
00:50:45
Speaker
unless I have a photo of the summit because that's become the pinnacle of proof. Well, then I wasn't going to win, even if I were trying it was, you know, I had every other bit of proof I needed. I wasn't going to win because he's way, way more savvy. So I just pulled inside myself, you know, quietly and kept real, real low profile and managed my sleepless nights. And I just decided that good will prevail in the end. I
Transforming Negative to Positive
00:51:16
Speaker
think. Who did you have with you? Who did you have around you doing through that? Do you have anyone? I made friends in other worlds, you know, so I would go to, ah um I went to university and I was always going to go to university. I just ah hadn't figured out what I wanted to do. And then I wanted to move to the States and I decided that after spending a couple of years in the States, I wanted to become, I wanted to go and live in America.
00:51:43
Speaker
And I knew that becoming a physical therapist by that time um would get me entry into America because it was a wanted profession. And so this is why I studied physical therapy so I could move to the United States. You dove into that that path headlong and and and that was your that was your companion through this period? and And all the people I met on the way, you know, and and you did other things and but started rock climbing and sport climbing had hit New Zealand by then. And then I discovered a rock climbing where, you know, I wasn't so scared. And so that was really good for me. and
00:52:23
Speaker
can we just pause for a minute and say how amazing that is that you turned all of that negativity into something profoundly positive? Because you did and I mean not everybody could do that and that's that's pretty real, that's pretty big. One of the things I grew up, I was lucky enough to grow up with is that life actually isn't fair and you can see that because there's people suffering extreme hardship of poverty or war or a abuse within so life isn't fair and so you know you can pretty much if you push it too much uh then life can be you can make it unfair
00:53:04
Speaker
And so Ra and I was super lucky. That kept me out of the blame. And i actually, this is what I was going to say to you i and because I knew we'd be talking about this first thing to see. And the year before, I had had this huge adventure and it turned into an epic with John Muir, who's an Australian climber. and a really amazing person. And we had been in India and on the Kednath's and we'd been going to traverse the Kednath peak in another knob. And we got caught in a big storm and of course we didn't have a map because there were no maps. We did have a map but I only had like five lines on it. there was no maps I know those maps. as you know
00:53:48
Speaker
You know what I mean? It's crazy, isn't it? Like, oh yeah, there's a ridge. Oh, that match is the ridge and that's it, like one line. And people just care. It's just so surreal, isn't it?
Learning from Near-Death Experiences
00:54:00
Speaker
And so we descended the face of a mountain in a complete storm in a whiteout on day six. we just stepped from so over 7,000 meters without a rope and big storm. And we had we got caught in six avalanches and we got buried in a snow cave that collapsed on me in an avalanche. But it was a James Bond day. And then near the end of that day, 16 hours later or something like this of epicness and ned and nearly dying multiple times, then ah
00:54:28
Speaker
we ended up having that finding this little shelter under this little triangular ice cliff. And we were standing there and there's another avalanche came down, and and and but it wasn't so big. And we managed to not be buried and patted down around our feet. And we were quite wet by then, of course, a little bit. We were just looking and looking and looking at the storm because that last avalanche wasn't as big as the ones before. So does that mean, of course, there's the snow falling less? intensely. And I said to John, you know, how long do these storms happen in last and in this area? And this is day two of the storm. And he in the day one, I'd spent vomiting at altitude. And ah and he said, oh, sometime, mostly two, but I have seen them last four. And I go, yeah, well, I won't last. Oh, tonight, I'll probably just get a bit of cold damage because I'm a bit damp. But I'm not sure even if we don't get buried.
00:55:22
Speaker
whether I last another 24 hours out in the open or 36 would be. And he goes, yeah, i'm I'm pretty much the same, I reckon. And then at that point, and I thought about it a lot later, of course, and this is a really, really momentous moment of learning, is that we didn't have that much gas, personal energy left, not gas in our bodies. And then he didn't complain that he was there. And I didn't complain that I was here and because we got ourselves there. And so nowadays we would say we didn't assume blame culture. We didn't buy into blame culture. It wasn't somebody else's fault. It wasn't the storm's fault. and We weren't innocent. We'd gone and plotted our way along the ridge and then got caught in a storm and then descended a mountain that we'd never seen before without a rope and it's really steep and got caught in avalanches. We'd done that.
00:56:17
Speaker
and Yes, it wasn't fair, but you can but life isn't fair, and that's the beauty of it, and that's why great art is created and all this kind of stuff, you know because it's mutating left and right, and that's not fair. and um And because we didn't complain, we didn't drag each other down, and you would have had these experiences so many times,
Human Resourcefulness in Climbing
00:56:38
Speaker
Steve. and because and And therefore we were able to harness the third of Lydia that was left and the third of John that was left. And that's two thirds of a person and that got us down. And I took that and I came away from that. And I got PTSD and started a war for two days without talking after that because it was so traumatic. and
00:57:00
Speaker
near death is very, one of the, one of the most severe traumas you can experience. Yeah. yeah i mean full stop I mean, multiple, multiple times. And, uh, yeah. And, uh, but then I went on to climb, uh, on the gas from straight away and you know, but but, um, because I was young and motivated and optima optimistic, And because when you're young you can sweep the trauma under the rug because it's the rug is not bulging with trauma yet. There's still relatively little dust, trauma dust under there, so there's room for more. When you get older that there's a lot more trauma dust under that rug and it's harder to sweep it under, but yeah.
00:57:40
Speaker
It's a really good analogy, but I think the rug is the adventure, and underneath is the trauma dust. And so there's another adventure, you know? Yeah, just throw another adventure over the trauma dust, yeah. Flatten it out a little bit, stomp on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I realized I had the resource to climb. i By that time, I wanted to have a go on Mount Everest. But no, there wasn't an expedition yet. But I go, oh, an 8,000 meter peak because that's what I was going to. I had the resource to climb to 8,000 because I had the resource to harness everything of mine. And I was a human and other humans had done it. So, you know, that
00:58:22
Speaker
took me ah into and took me away from blaming because I realized the power. If you accept responsibility, so this is what I say sometimes in corporate presentations or or inspirational talks, is If you teach your child or you teach yourself that the bad things that happen to you are somebody else's fault, oh, it's their fault, therefore I'll sue them, so to speak, then logically, most of the good things that happen to you are also somebody else's fault.
00:59:00
Speaker
So therefore you don't have, you take away your advocacy, you take away your so that your ah your own empowerment to create more good things, your own agency, because it's somebody else is the doing all the things to you. yeah Exactly. They're doing all the things to you. And so no wonder our teenagers are really stressed because we've brought them up in a world of blame culture. ah Hello. Can we go back to that because
00:59:36
Speaker
I agree wholeheartedly with this. You took that knowledge that you gained from this epic and canadaed on and that's a mountain in the Indian Himalaya. You took that, and you turned it into this knowledge, as you said, that you could dig really deep. and Yeah, but that took years. And, but it did it or was it available on gashibrom the next immediately after? Oh, no. Okay. I was available optimistically on gashibrom and I had a ball and I climbed with these basques and we did it.
01:00:15
Speaker
I'll find style in the end and then, you know, larger data, yeah. But, you know, you you went straight over and and did this other other thing, like, you know, maybe these are maybe there's some slow and some fast thinking here, maybe there's some subconscious, like, yeah, this is hard, but I'm hard, I'm tough, I can endure. And I'm human and they're human, like, you know, why
Impact of Family on Children's Growth
01:00:38
Speaker
can't I think and do it? Why can't I do it? I mean, that's that's, I think, honestly, one of the most powerful things that you can say to yourself in almost any.
01:00:46
Speaker
human endeavor, right? like And I've certainly said it to myself. like And we've also all marveled at the pioneers, like, you know wow, these guys climbed this mountain 100 years ago with hobnail boots. And you know we've all had these conversations with our mates in the mountains, right? It's a combination. I think the real conversation there is one of, would we have been able to do that had we had only the resources, the limited resources and knowledge that they had? you know, aren't we lucky to live in this time where we have, you know, incredible steel crampons that stay sharp for days and GPS instead of, you know, blank maps and, you know, these kinds of things. I mean, I think that's really a ah gem of an insight, I think, that you learned that, but you had to learn that through six avalanche burials or whatever it was, a lost count, you know, and this complete epic. And is there another way to learn that?
01:01:47
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I'm sure there is. You know, you do learn some things when you grow up in your family and ah perhaps of your parents. How old are your sons, Steve? Five and eight right now. OK, well, you know, you'll be talking to them and you'll be they'll be hearing conversations like this that goes into the DNA. for sure So they'll they'll come away. They'll see how their parents think and and and react and they'll come away with knowledge. And, you know, if they've got climbing skiing parents, they'll come away with the expert, the experience of knowing how to climb and ski, but also how to think.
01:02:25
Speaker
It's the biggest present that we can give people and they don't have to be our own children, but they're often better not to be id say and and if you've grown up in a house where people think about how people think and I think that's probably what I did. I probably grew up in a house. where my mother taught me to think how people think and how do you think? And so I, oh, this isn't going so well. I'm feeling like, shit, is there another way to think about this? Is there another approach? And and then possibly retrospectively, decades, decades later, I can philosophize about it.
Post-Everest Mental Impact
01:03:00
Speaker
But basically, post-Everest drama was shit to go through. Excuse the language. Sorry, I should, not there.
01:03:08
Speaker
but you know it wasn't very nice. and and ah But I'm very lucky that biochemically, I didn't stay down. Yeah, that's that's a good point of differentiation.
Advice to Young Women Climbers
01:03:21
Speaker
i mean I imagine you often get asked what advice would you give to young women climbers trying to find their way into the mountains and this kind of thing. The immediate advice that I give but female alpinists, if you like, is not to carry really heavy loads, you know not to trash themselves because women are finer. Our joints are sloppier. Our joints per body weight are ah smaller. We have 12 to 24% fewer red blood cells per body much per um volume of red blood. and they last The red blood cells last way less time than the men's blood cells you know as they go through the body.
01:04:03
Speaker
and and You know, yeah for the same body weight, if you are neither same body weight, you'll have up to 40% more muscle mass than me, blah, blah, blah, all of that kind of stuff. You know, men are machines. Lots of women are strong or stronger than men. But if you plant plotted the normal curve. ah So don't wear yourself out carrying huge loads just to be part, melt more snow. melt more snow you know work it melt more snow carry light packs spend the money on packs that trash out we didn't have the option of light packs we have big heavy canvas packs back in the day but you know the next generation will have different gear as well you know now we have hundred gram harnesses look at our harnesses in the ordinary days yeah and ah so on so forth so that's ah an immediate thing and ah as far as so
01:04:55
Speaker
both all genders, then I think the best thing you can do is if you bring people up non-agist, if the young people end up having to sit at the table, eat the adult food, not get their little precious meals cooked for them differently, they have to eat adult food. you know They are treated like young young people and their opinions are respected for people of that age and that experience. and they listen to it at the table and they have to listen to other people, ah then then and they're encouraged with curiosity and they can have a conversation with somebody who, like an older a woman, and they're just having a conversation with another person, then you're not going to have a problem. Because then you have this intrinsic respect for humanity.
01:05:53
Speaker
and gender differences ah become less of an issue. The other thing is that life isn't fair.
Insecure Overachievers
01:06:04
Speaker
You know, you can do the best with what you have and you can't always do the best. You know, you have to give yourself some slack because, you know, of insecure overachievers tend to always want to do their best, don't they? yeah I laughed out loud when I read that, that you described yourself as an insecure overachiever somewhere in my research, because I've used that term for myself. And I learned that term from a friend of mine who has done this in a very different way, but it's working for him. And that, you know, is something that I've marveled at is because
01:06:44
Speaker
I think that's largely what drove me. It sounds like it was a similar thing for you, whether that's related to the wild child and you're nodding. But, you know, there's also these people that do it out of the pure love of it, right? And they're just balanced and healthy emotionally and they have love for it and they have enthusiasm for it. And they're also incredibly successful and life isn't fair. ah Well, I think Actually, most ah most high achievers have sleepless nights. They may not have sleepless nights going, oh, what will people think of me? But they will have sleepless nights about doing their best because they want to. Not necessarily because they're driven from competitiveness, they could be driven something else. And I also think that
01:07:34
Speaker
you and I and a lot of people just because you're an insecure overachiever doesn't mean that you're not passionate about nature and you're passionate about the experiences that you have in these beautiful places and you're not passionate about people.
Creative Endeavors and Curiosity
01:07:47
Speaker
I mean you're passionate so passionate you have a podcast where you talk to a whole lot of different people. yeah because it feeds your curiosity about how people's minds work. Totally, yeah. This is entirely a creative project for me that doesn't really have any meaning or doesn't necessarily benefit the Pilathlete business and model in any way. It's just something I have to do because I want to find out. I want to talk to you and I want to talk to these other people. And I have ah this thesis that when I was young,
01:08:19
Speaker
I was so driven to achieve, and it didn't matter if there was a future to it. And one of the things that I've experienced in my life is having lost a lot of really dear, dear friends, and two mostly to the mountains, but also to cancer and other things. so and
01:08:40
Speaker
especially the ones that I lost to climbing, I always felt like, man, I wish that they had seen how much good work there was still left to do for them because most of them were honestly quite young, you know, they're in their twenties and thirties.
01:08:55
Speaker
occasional one was 40 or you know mug stump was 42 right I mean talk about imagine what mugs would be like today right like he was a but he was a walking like prophet 30 years ago. Like imagine if he was alive today and had what he would have to say to us, right? Like, but I don't think that there would be, so I guess what my thesis with some of this, this inquiry is to actually create something that hopefully will stand the test of time and people, young people will listen to and hear you
01:09:35
Speaker
and hear me and hear others that and think, yeah, OK, I want like that's real wisdom. That's that's a life worth living. it And I want to have that part, too. I want to have that wisdom that is earned when I'm in my fifties and sixties and seventies and eighties and maybe nineties. You know, that would be that would be something that would be a legacy right to to really leave behind, to get to show people that they that's possible. OK, so that's a it's really interesting. and you And you're saying that I'm going, well, maybe if we.
Mutual Mentorship
01:10:12
Speaker
If if young people ah realize if if they're not sexist and ageist, so to speak, and they're sitting in base camp or they're sitting around the dinner table, um actually say it listening, not all the time, just they can they can engage.
01:10:31
Speaker
then they'll have this, they will grow more of the value. But there's so much you've got to learn so much when you're young. You've got to learn how to hold a spoon when you're really young. And then after that, it's kind of like an adult version of the same thing, isn't it really? Learning how to hold a File a tax return. Yeah, file a tax return. And until you learn that you can pay someone else to do it, whatever. But one ah you know when we come to mentors, if we look at mentorship, I strongly believe that mentorship goes both ways. So the classic white middle class ah model of mentorship is the older person
01:11:16
Speaker
being a mentor to the younger person. Now in Maori philosophy or Maori culture, they have a tukana and that is the mentor and the menti and that can switch in an hour into reverse. So they have the belief that a young person can mentor an older person and an old person can mentor a younger person. It just depends on what you're talking about. If we brought this philosophy more, then the young person sitting at the table or in base camp or something would see the benefit of being older because there's more mutual respect
01:11:58
Speaker
Therefore, that you would know that when you're older, you can still keep learning. It's just a binary system. It's just like you learn and you teach and you teach and you learn and it should be non-ages. And therefore, ah then you open the door more to um the reason why you may as well live a bit longer because you can keep learning. It's more interesting. When you're young, being old is really uninteresting. When I was a boy, I was really into the Boy Scouts. And one of the things that I learned in the Scouts was that, you know, I would go through these things of having to learn these tasks or whatever, like camping or something, the first aid or something. And then shortly after that, I would have to teach it. And I actually didn't know it until I taught it.
01:12:42
Speaker
And I was like, that was a, I learned that really young and I was like, okay, so that's how this works. Okay. I learned the basics and then there's some time passes. Maybe I do a little practice and then I'm going to have to teach someone else. So then that's when I actually go and bone up and like really like fill in the gaps. And after I've done that for a while, then I actually know it. And I mean, even guiding is that way, right? Like, I mean, teaching ice climbing helped my ice climbing so much. Yes, absolutely. and But that requires hard work. and that yeah And hard work, even the term hard work is often said with, oh, that's hard work, as opposed to, oh, wow, some hard work. We don't celebrate the skill of embracing hard work.
01:13:31
Speaker
the actual knowledge that, yeah, well, that's okay, that's hard work. Oh, you know, sometimes it's not that pleasant and sometimes it's hard, but I can do it. And sometimes just because it's hard doesn't mean it's fun, not fun, I should say, or fun. yeah So, e you know, is and it's like when we talk about the word consequence, oh my God, that's a really consequential decision. Yeah, but actually there's good consequences too. You know, the consequence of doing exercises that you get fitter, consequence of eating healthy food is that you get more healthy. The consequence of learning something is that you know it at the end. So um so there's this, you know, we we load, we backload these so these terms, which are really important for life. A real life, not a protected little bubble in a built environment.
01:14:21
Speaker
You know, we, we, we we need to, and we need to load these terms of positivity as well as negative. I love that. Yeah. in You know, yeah. And real life and not, not in protected bubbles. Yes. More of that, please. Years ago, I did, I was doing a keynote for a big conference in New Zealand with a whole lot of scientists that had come over for, uh, it was movement and, uh, or ergonomics and extreme environment. And ah so I was talking to this professor of physical science in one of the universities in New Zealand, and he was talking about extreme environments. And he interrupted me and he said, you know, Lydia, and this has stayed with me forever. He said, I actually think that the built environment is now one of the most extreme environments that we subject ourselves to.
Extreme Built Environments
01:15:12
Speaker
And that stuck with me, you know, you know you don't, boom yeah yeah, you don't trigger but a whole lot of development and inside the brain. If you live in a ah straight, flat, organized environment, you know, you don't do this, you don't do that. You don't, there's no consequence to things. You're not going to break your leg and, and then die if you like, or something like that. So yes, the built environment is a really extreme environment. Yeah, so at that outset of this project, I knew, as I said before, that I was going to call on those of us that have spent, you know, four, or five, six decades in the mountains to help us work towards what I hope to be sort of a philosophy of the mountains. and
01:15:56
Speaker
you know You're currently 62 years old. You've done Big Wall, first to sense and first female sense. You're the first woman to climb an 8,000 meter peak in Alpine style. You're the first woman to climb Everest without supplemental oxygen. You've guided Everest a bunch of times. You're a physiotherapist. You're an IFMJ certified guide and you still are guiding and climbing actively. You've written an an incredible book. How do you want to be remembered?
01:16:25
Speaker
um It's funny.
01:16:28
Speaker
As positive and as good company, I guess. But ah somebody would like to have as their friend. Is he insecure? No, not really. I just think how would i that's an interesting question. It doesn't have to be from insecurity, though. I mean, like that's that's, I think, your inner critic talking there. But being good company, that's not a small feat, right? like That's something that you might say offhand and it might sound light and might sound insignificant at first. But if you think about it,
01:17:06
Speaker
You know, i'm I mean, I immediately think of like a Winston Churchill type character that would, you know, have like his brandy glass and like just be like telling you these incredibly clever and witty and subtle jokes and talking about the war, the stories, like all the things, kind of making fun of everything, that but in a very a way that enlightens and and and enlivens conversation. I mean, that that's that's a fine goal, I think. I mean, that's a very, very human fine goal. I want to die knowing that I used as much of my brain power as I can. um i think um'm I'm reasonably smart, but I think I try to use as much of my
01:17:57
Speaker
brain as I can. I like these conversations, but I went to a play last week and the and the actor, it was a single person play, just phenomenal, and the actor came out afterwards and did a Q and&A, and he was speaking about the ah bringing a Japanese no theater in, and we're the Greek philosophy of theaters, and he was just bringing it in and I'm going, I am in the presence of a great teacher. Not a good teacher, but a great teacher. That's what I felt like when I was hanging out with this love ax on Everest, but I couldn't verbalize it as well. these are ah Peter is not a good teacher. He's a great teacher. And this ability to engage with the world, not to waste your life,
Engaging with the World
01:18:41
Speaker
You don't have to go and climb mountains, but to the world, care and and learn and grow and and develop ideas. and you know I'm sure that if we meet again, we'll at least have a great conversation. I mean, I think you are a great teacher, Lydia. I mean, I think that you owe it to yourself and you know i'm I'm sure everyone listening to this conversation today will agree that you know you should own that because you you are that. And you know I think that this is one of the great beauties of
01:19:19
Speaker
the mountain experience is how, you know, it can take you from, you know, just to use abstractions, ah you know, so single child of a single mother and somewhere in New Zealand. who had a chip on her shoulder and was a wild child and went to Alaska and climbed big walls in Yosemite and climb Mount Everest was called a liar for not having the right photo and you know all of the things that you went through
01:20:01
Speaker
and learned through all of those things how to how to manage it. right like It's a little bit like, I think what you know makes great humans is doing hard things.
Growth through Hardships
01:20:15
Speaker
And and finding, you know it's it's that you know i mean I think we could talk, I could ask this question about Everest. like Were you the person that could climb Everest before you climbed it? Or were you only the person who could climb Everest after you climbed it? During, actually. During. Yeah, or during. Yeah. Yeah. But were you already that person and then you just had to manifest it and and put one foot in front of the other? Or did it could it not happen until you actually went through the action?
01:20:50
Speaker
No, I think that when you do really hard things, maybe you realize just before, you know, you because it's only till just before, if they're really hard, that you've gained enough experience. Just say if you were a dancer and you were doing a really, really challenging solo piece, then it's the build up or you go to the Olympics, they talk about the build up. So essentially, you're the person who can do that solo piece or win a medal or just do really well.
01:21:22
Speaker
ah You know, you're pushing to that moment. That's what doing something new is. So it's just before you do it that you become the person who can do it just before. Totally agree. Yeah. And I think that gives you the confidence, you know, that that gives you that sort of, OK, I'm ready or I don't know if I'm ready, but I think I'm ready. you know Or let's find out if I'm ready. that Yeah, let's find out if I'm ready. Yeah, yeah and then like let it let the cards fall where they may and then come back and say, OK, I was ready or wasn't wasn't ready. let's Let's try again or not try again or change the objective. I think that that approach to um to life, but also to
01:22:07
Speaker
you know, personal development, organizational development, as you know, there's just so many ways to apply apply that. You know, when I'm, you know, internally with uphill athlete, and i I tell my colleagues this, like, everything's a test. And it's not a pass or fail. It's a, where are you strong and where do you need help? Where do you need assistance? and how and And can I assist you in those areas? And if I can't, who can? And do we have somebody in our team that can? Or do we have to go find somebody outside of our team that can?
01:22:45
Speaker
you know And let's just keep having this conversation about how we're all doing in these continual tests. And it's like every, I i tell them like basically we're on a a cycle. There's a major test every three to four months. And then we take a little break and then we do something hard again. And you know, and then we talk about it. We we observe ourselves. We observe one another. We give feedback. And you know in the mountains, the feedback loop is much more personal. It's with yourself, right? like It's like, I'm feeling good today. I'm feeling bad today. like I feel strong, that kind of thing. um In team environments, the feedback loop is you know your colleague saying, this sucks. This copy you wrote is terrible. I don't like it. I don't know why, but can you try again? Or whatever it is, right? like
01:23:39
Speaker
but in a compassionate way. Maybe that's not a good example. but yeah They're all good. And I was going to say at the beginning of when you just started speaking, was I was thinking that we're talking, you're saying, did you become the person who could climb it before, during or after?
Celebrating the Journey
01:23:56
Speaker
ah And that really is focusing on the end goal. And I think in order to help people on the passage, we need to celebrate what already exists, and that's the journey more. So if you say not only will you be challenge you know you'd be getting fitter along the way, but
01:24:23
Speaker
In order to achieve that, you've connected one of your clients, an uphill athlete with say a psychologist, you know, a sports psychologist. And then you're not just, it's not just getting the information you need to try to get better at doing your exercises, which would be what I need from that sports psychologist. You're also having the experience of spending time with a psychologist. So I am listening to you speak going, this is a cool experience spending time talking to Steve House. I'm so lucky because we can talk about philosophy and ideas. And it's really interesting. And I really hope that we do meet again soon, you know because it'll be fun yeah and ah funny. And yeah and so there's there's two layers. And so then that then,
01:25:22
Speaker
reinforces the fact that it's the journey that gets us to the goal that what we are really relishing. And I mean, you've done this, I'm sure, a thousand times as a mountain guide, but we do this every day with uphill athletes to where people come to us and they say, I want to i want achieve the goal. I want to climb Everest or whatever the goal happens to be. I want to run this race. And what I know and what you know is that it's not the goal, it's the becoming, the person that can do those things. You know, and it's a process. Like you said in the beginning, you talked about the the person that could show up and do the do the basic things consistently well.
01:26:04
Speaker
without making a big fuss out of them, show up with sharp crampons, ah you know, goggles that are are at least at the beginning, not cracked and not scratched, um you know, boots that fit, whatever the thing is, right? And have all that sorted, be sorted, like, you know, and then you can yeah work on the other things. And it's the becoming. Yeah, absolutely. Then you can put risk.
Effective Risk Management
01:26:32
Speaker
that's when you Instead of having risk that your goggles are going to break properly because they've got a crack and those are scratches. Scratches on your goggles that then ice up so you cannot see in a whiteout. You can't see in a whiteout. You fall off.
01:26:46
Speaker
yeah you know yeah And so, but if you're going to take that risk, if you're going to take a unit of say eight out of 10 risk or four out of 10 risk, whatever risk profile you want, um then put it at the top end. You know, don't waste your risk taking because you got scratch goggles, sort that out. You know, it's really boring place to take risks. You know, make it funny. I mean, it's like, it's really cool to turn up with good goggles because you've got a unit of lemons that you can absorb or whatever people want to do when they talk about risk profile. You know, you've got a unit of risk that you're allowed to take before you die. If you like. Don't waste it on crack goggles. Boring. It's making life fun. Yeah.
01:27:33
Speaker
I asked you how you'd like to be remembered and I'm going to ask you another really hard question.
Future Dreams and Legacy
01:27:40
Speaker
What is your dream and at this point? Oh, that's easy. um ah My joints are wearing out and my dream is to, well, a dream, a dream and I'm not sure we'll see, because I am older. I'd like to climb another 8,000 for sure. um I'd love to. And I need to, my my dream would be to just, you know, I do have a ah quite, not very good knees and I've got one particular knee at the bottom, one of my two knees and that's not very good. So ah that would be my, it's a real practical in your face. Come on, Lydia, things are really happening. So a new knee, ah I get a new knee and climb and knee and climb another 8,000 there.
01:28:25
Speaker
Yeah, something like that. I do love expedition life and I do love guiding at altitude and ah yeah, and A dream, well, that would be kind of a practical dream. I don't necessarily, i'm I'm not sure if I can get another, how much I can get out of my knee, but, you know, just that's kind of a managing it creatively and not missing out too much because, you know, I have the time scale of my age versus, and I hope that I can keep going high for a little bit longer. I have no idea. I haven't been to 8,000, I've been to 7,000 each year, but not to eight since.
01:29:03
Speaker
my last Everest in 2019, then we had COVID and you know New Zealand closed down. It was pretty hard. It was too hard to get back in. And so those are sort of practical dreams and I want to, oh, this other career-y kind of things. Say the crazy thing. Oh, I really like to start to make some films. I think I made a little film last year. I don't own it, but it was my idea and I was We'll link to it in the show notes because i ah I've watched it. It's really great. Do you like it? I do. Yeah. Yeah. yeah it's ah It's just been released. I mean, I've only been on YouTube at least a couple of weeks.
01:29:43
Speaker
Because I didn't even know okay it was on. This is our other path. yeah and yeah yeah yeah and ah so i and And part of that is exploring how people think. It's exactly what we're doing here. We're exploring how people think who have had significant events in their life. That's your whole thing. How have these events changed you? How do you think now? What did you think before? That's your big question of this whole podcast. That's what I love to do. That's so exciting. and
01:30:16
Speaker
The mind is so exciting. Yeah. And, and you have a lot to share about that. I think that that's a great dream. I'd love, I can't wait to, to, I'm sure we'll talk again before I have a feeling and, uh, I can't wait to see what, what happens with that. now Make that happen. Well, you know, that's the dream. But I'm also not, um you know, I'm not living in Europe, and I'm not living in America, aware where, where elpinism is a culture. And ah with this more money, and I'm not the current hot chick doing super hard ice climbs, i've you know, just all that kind of stuff. I'm just a
01:30:57
Speaker
you know i'm just know no no no no don't You're not allowed to say that here. You're not just in anything. You're incredible. And this goes back to, you know, the pioneer piece that I mentioned before, how I'm fascinated with people. And there's a saying, you know, pioneers get arrows, settlers get land. Have you ever heard that? And piers pioneers get what? Arrows. have pioneers get arrows, settlers get land. And you know you've been a pioneer whether you know in so many ways. It's who you are. It's in your identity. It's just how you show up in the world. And it's um it's amazing. And that's what we need more of. that's why I mean, if you don't do it for yourself, do it for the pioneering aspect that you're like opening a trail that
01:31:50
Speaker
other people can be 62 and have done all these amazing things and still like have big, amazing things left that you want to do and that you will do. ah yes I mean, and because you will become the person that can do it in the act of doing it or trying to do it. but I mean, to bring it full circle, right? like that's You've done all these other things before, so why can't you do that too? like There's no reason you can't do that too. Zero. You should have a yeah company that inspires people to, okay, I'm just joking. That's true. There you go. But you've you've done all of that. If I can offer you anything today and and in in exchange for you being here and having these conversations, it would just be that I see you and I see how amazing you are. And I'm so happy to have had this chance to connect with you and have this conversation and share these ideas. And I think our listeners will also appreciate it.
01:32:47
Speaker
Really a ah lot. How can our listeners find you or connect you in the ever-present digital world? Oh Instagram Lydia Brady they can message me that way or um Instagram or Facebook or I think my email is pretty visible findable Yeah, Instagram and Facebook are always good. You're you're out there and we'll try to link to you in the ah show notes. Thank you so much, Lydia. Thanks to our listeners for tuning in. Do not forget to click the subscribe button to the uphill athlete podcast for more inspiring conversations like this one. Until next time, remember Lydia's words, the uphill is easy.