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Episode 18 - Part 1: What is Diversity, Equity and Inclusion and how are we performing as an industry?
153 Plays2 years ago
In part 1 of episode 3 with Sybil Taunton from the RICS, we're discussing diversity, equity and inclusion.
Sybil is the Head of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the RICS.
She is a creative and strategic communicator with a passion for inspiring positive change and shaping inclusive cultures.
Across the two parts of this episode, Sybil provides some really interesting insights into where the built environment stands on its progress around DEI and also what you can do to help shape the future.
In part 1, we take a look at what DEI is and the wider industry. We discuss:
🫂 Diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace
🤗 How it impacts an organisation, membership and the wider industry
📊 The importance of having a focus on culture and data to measure progress
🖥️ Collecting DEI data
🎯 How to use data to set realistic targets
⏰ Understanding the importance of timing of measurement to enable change to happen
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Survey Booker Sessions. Tune in to hear from people working in a range of industries and roles to provide you ideas that you can take away and use in your own business. I'm your host Matt Nally, the founder and director of Survey Booker, which is the leading CRM and survey management system for surveyors.
00:00:15
Speaker
On this week's episode, we're speaking to Sybil, who is the Head of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at the RCS. So thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me.
Understanding DEI
00:00:23
Speaker
Anytime. Would you like to, I suppose, give us a bit of background as to what your role within the RCS is? And obviously, that will shape the context, I think, for the rest of the conversation.
00:00:33
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Unlike EDI or DEI leaders within an organization, one of our firms that are looking predominantly internally at how the business operates, I do look at those things and I collaborate closely with our HR team and other business leaders within the organization. But I've been put in this role to really look at DEI for the entirety of our membership. Looking at how we can support our firms
00:01:02
Speaker
how we can leverage the best practice and the expertise that exists in the industry, bring that in-house, and then reflect that back out to the membership so that everyone can learn collectively, do better collectively. So a lot of how I'll speak to this today and answer the questions today comes from that perspective of looking externally versus getting in the weeds of internal best practice.
00:01:27
Speaker
Perfect. And so I suppose if we start with the basics, what does Diversity XE and Inclusion cover? Because I think there's so many things we obviously talk about day to day now, and I think it's hard to keep track of potentially what the meaning of it of different things are. So it's good to start with that as a base.
00:01:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. We just had some like all employee vision events for our organization. And that was actually the focus of my briefing when given the platform is to really unpack the acronym. And so happy to do that now. Because I think when we look at what is happening in the space and a lot of what people are focused on, it's purely that diversity piece, which is just representation, it's data.
00:02:10
Speaker
It's that, you know, makeup of who it is that exists within our organization, within the membership, within the wider industry. That's it. It's just the data piece. So if we're only focusing on improving
00:02:24
Speaker
representation like we're missing really vital pieces of the conversation which comes in with the equity and the inclusion part of it. And so I think it's really important to recognize that diversity just means data and representation and so and having difference amongst that you know any sort of population. So why we need equity and inclusion is making sure that if we're putting in all this work to recruit diverse talent into our organizations and
00:02:51
Speaker
and the wider industry that we actually have the means to keep them, retain them, promote, develop. Otherwise, we just create this revolving door where talent comes in and leaves again because they don't feel the psychological or physical safety working in a space because the culture isn't quite right.
00:03:11
Speaker
the policies aren't quite right to ensure that they get the access and development that they need. So when we look at equity, that's where we start drilling into our processes, our practices, our policies, and we go, right, who's getting left behind in this? Who are we missing? Is everything that we're doing accessible for everyone when it comes to disability, neurodiversity?
00:03:37
Speaker
Are we taking a deliberate look at every individual in our organization and making sure they have the development opportunities they deserve the access to promotion that they deserve you know are we being as equitable as we could be in the way that we recruit for talent or we.
00:03:55
Speaker
constantly looking at the same universities that crank out the same standard pipeline of students and not opening our aperture to other academic institutions? Or are we hiring local talent from the communities that we serve? You know, asking those questions of are we being deliberate? And are we asking ourselves who could possibly be left behind in this? That's the equity piece. And I think that term gets confused sometimes. And I had posted about this recently on LinkedIn.
00:04:25
Speaker
It gets confused sometimes, one, with the word equality. They're different. Those are two different words meaning different things. Equality is that ideal end state we hope to get to as a society where regardless of who you are, where you come from, who you love, you know that you're going to have equal opportunity to education, to healthcare, to career success. That's the ideal end state.
Cultural Change and Data Importance
00:04:47
Speaker
Equity is the vehicle that gets us there. It's like I said, taking those deliberate steps, having those deliberate conversations about
00:04:54
Speaker
who may be getting left behind and then making adjustments to correct that. What it is is looking at rather than, I think the confusion that comes in is that sometimes people hear the word equity and they think unfair advantages. We have to just start handing out unfair advantages. You're only promoting those people because of where they're from or what they look like. That's not what equity is. Equity is about recognizing where the disadvantages are,
00:05:23
Speaker
and making deliberate efforts, taking deliberate efforts to remove them. It's not about handing out unfair advantages. So I think it's really, really important. And I will get on a soapbox for hours on the importance of equity and really understanding what it means, but I'll leave it there on that one.
00:05:39
Speaker
And then inclusion is the core, is the meat of the conversation that I think we need as an industry to have more of a conversation about. And really, that comes down to culture. Is the culture within our industry where it needs to be to make
00:05:57
Speaker
every individual from every background feel welcomed, feel valued, and feel like they have the opportunities they deserve to thrive, succeed in the industry. I would say we're not there. I think plenty of people will agree. There are plenty of historical institutional behaviors that still need some adjusting. I think that's the conversation we really should be having.
00:06:23
Speaker
as an industry is, how do we get our culture in a better place where everyone working within the built and natural environment, everyone working within surveying is educating themselves, developing themselves, and opening their minds to understanding
00:06:39
Speaker
views and perspectives other than their own. And again, that takes deliberate effort. So the increasing and improving the diversity pieces while it takes a ton of work is the easy part. The equity and the inclusion part are where we really need to roll up our sleeves and I think do a better job of collectively and focusing in those areas.
00:07:00
Speaker
It's really interesting. I think one of the things that made me think as well when I was reading some of your posts was I jumped to the assumption just I think because it's so much in the news around, you know, it's probably to do with gender or race or the religious aspects. I completely forgot that it obviously might include things like disability. Just because of the amount of noise, not noise is the wrong word, but the amount of airtime other aspects have had over maybe that one, for example, and it changes obviously.
00:07:28
Speaker
but it made me sort of rethink how the conversation could go obviously today around thinking through that better. What does it look like I suppose in terms of...
00:07:38
Speaker
how do we know that we're going in the right direction? So for example, what does the ideal outcome look like? Is it, you know, everyone's represented equally across, you know, the different, those different factors, or will there always be a certain imbalance in terms of, I don't know, natural preference towards things? And therefore, does that built in? Or how do we know what we're striving towards? I suppose is my question.
00:08:05
Speaker
That's a really great question, and that's where the importance of data comes in. And so data is absolutely vital in getting this right. Every EDI-DEI strategy should be
00:08:21
Speaker
Built around a foundation of data and i think that's what we're lacking in our industry and a lot of organizations are in there and they're starting to keep you in on this of. You know specially in the uk you absolutely can and should be asking your employees.
00:08:37
Speaker
who they are and what they bring to the table because, you know, especially across the protected characteristics within the Equality Act, you are allowed to ask those questions and you should be, you know. So find out within your organization what the gender breakdown is, you know, both biological, you know, gender, that binary biological gender, but also, you know, the wider spectrum of gender identities should be asking about
00:09:02
Speaker
Sexual orientation about disabilities about ethnicity about religious, you know preference those those types of things like you can and should be asking those questions and so using that data helps you understand the makeup of your organization and then
00:09:20
Speaker
And then the important piece is knowing what you're comparing it to. So some of the work we're doing at RACS is building layers of data that make those comparisons a bit more manageable. Because right now, let's say you work in a surveying firm and you've collected the data on your organization, the comparator that exists right now is Office of National Statistics data from the census. That's going to feel incredibly daunting and overwhelming to go right.
00:09:50
Speaker
According to the national census, the population across these demographic characteristics are at these levels. Holy cow, how are we going to get there? Because within surveying, our levels aren't there. So RACS can provide, so here's your firm, RACS is collecting data from surveyors individually so that we can say, okay, across the surveying profession in the UK, because we can ask all these questions.
00:10:16
Speaker
Here's what we look like so that a firm can go right if this is what overall surveying looks like. Here's what we should be striving to. We've got this comparative now that doesn't help all of our firms who have a range of talents. They're not just made up of surveyor. So we look at our real estate firms or construction firms. They're going to need a different kind of comparative data set. And that's where the supply chain sustainability schools DEI survey.
00:10:39
Speaker
Comes into play so we're encouraging our firms to fill out that survey and then that builds industry benchmarks and comparative data sets so then a firm that has a Makeup of different types of profession say it's a real estate firm they can go right here's what the makeup of our organization looks like because we're finally collecting this data and
00:10:59
Speaker
And now here's what overarching real estate numbers are looking at. Let's set our targets based off of that. So then it's a little less daunting than going, OK, we're trying to achieve national general population standards, which is unrealistic. And that gets to your point of, is it going to be balanced? We have to have equal representation across all demographics. That's going to be impossible to achieve because the populations that we're operating within
00:11:22
Speaker
are not balanced across all demographics. So it's really about understanding data sets and knowing where you are and then having something
Global DEI Data Challenges
00:11:33
Speaker
reasonable and manageable to compare that to. So we're really doing that foundational work trying to create those layers.
00:11:39
Speaker
But yeah any any firm trying to give a good crack at getting this right needs to be able to measure progress on the way they do that is is through data and that's not just going i mean a piece of that is the measuring who's in our organization.
00:11:54
Speaker
But that again is just the representation part. You can also measure how long are they staying in the organization? How long is it taking us to develop and promote people across demographic groups? Everything about the DEI space can be measured. And I think, you know, too often targets are set on that representation piece.
00:12:14
Speaker
And then we're not setting targets based off of all of the rest of it, which is all about how do you retain that talent, you know, that you're bringing into your organization. So hopefully that answers your question, you know, in a meaningful way. But really, it all comes down to data. And if your organization isn't collecting it, you should be. And so and we're happy to help, you know, firms
00:12:35
Speaker
with the question sets. We've done a lot of work with our fellow professional body partners in establishing, you know, a set questionnaire that aligns with ONS data. So, so there are comparators. And so we can help people on that journey. I think the sticky part comes for firms that are operating internationally, because you can't ask the same questions everywhere. And I think that's why we get caught up in, you know,
00:13:01
Speaker
Too often, the conversation on DEI becomes about binary gender, because that seems to be the only thing we can talk about globally. Everything else gets quite tricky sticky depending on what region you're discussing that in. But even then, there are data sets that can be collected globally, and those are the conversations we should be having as well, rather than saying, it's too complicated, we're not doing it. We should be going, right, collectively as an industry, what can we measure, and why are we not measuring that?
00:13:29
Speaker
Interesting. Okay, so you mentioned some metrics already. Yes. Are there, in terms of getting started, are there better ones? I don't know if that's the right word, but are there better ones to start focusing on to begin with, in terms of making headway into understanding your position and where to go?
00:13:45
Speaker
Yep. I think at the very least for firms operating in the UK, you should be collecting across all the protected characteristics. I know there's a lot of organizations that want to look at social mobility. That's a complicated one. There are a variety of ways you can collect that data and a variety of questions that you could ask, but no matter what, there's no one question that gets you at
00:14:07
Speaker
social mobility. And so that's a really complicated one. But I would say at the very, very least, every organization in the UK and Ireland should be collecting across all the protected characteristics. And it's not compulsory. We can't force people to answer those questions. It is still personal private data. But you should give people the opportunity to say, this is who I am, and this is what I bring to your organization.
00:14:34
Speaker
so that, yeah, organizations can set those baselines for themselves and understand who actually works in their organization. I think we find it challenging reporting rates of disability is one that's a tough one. Disclosure rates are often low on that one. And I think that comes back to the culture piece. Do your employees feel safe enough to tell you who they are? And so I think running the exercise of asking,
00:15:04
Speaker
If employers find that people are not wanting to disclose that data, that should send up a big flag that our employees don't feel safe enough to disclose that data to us. How can we do some work here to fix that and to change that?
00:15:17
Speaker
So no matter what, it's a good exercise to run, to ask these things. Obviously, small and micro firms are going to be up against it because their teams are going to be so small that being able to protect that privacy is going to be really challenging with a small data set. People will be identified because if you only have five people working in your firm, you're going to know whose data is what, just based off of who you see sitting around you. So that's tricky. But there's still a conversation to be had around DEI for those
00:15:46
Speaker
small firms that isn't just about data. It's an interesting point there about the openness of the business culture generally because if people aren't willing to bring that up as part of that discussion then there's a lot of things that might not be being discussed generally day to day about improvements of the business or employee morale all that type of stuff so it feeds into a lot of other aspects.
Ethical DEI Practices
00:16:09
Speaker
You mentioned a point around
00:16:13
Speaker
people may be misunderstanding the sort of positive discrimination aspect. I don't use those terms specifically, but I think that's what you're leading to. The RAF, obviously recently, one group that was in the news recently for that type of thing being on the wrong side of things from a legal perspective. How do you avoid that sort of potential route? Once you've set your understanding of where you are and you're looking at where you want to get to in terms of improving that DEI aspect?
00:16:43
Speaker
do you do it in a way that is inclusive and isn't the wrong side of that line, if that makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. I think the conversation is don't get in the business of hiring people because of what they look like or where they come from, because that's where we get in uncomfortable territory and no professional wants to be
00:17:06
Speaker
hired into a role because of the color of their skin or their religious beliefs you know or their sexual orientation you know no one wants to be that token hire they want to be hired because they're an excellent candidate and they deserve the role and they've and they've worked for it so I think the way to to not get.
00:17:25
Speaker
down that rabbit hole is if you've taken your data set and you go right here's where our big gap is we're really really locking ethnic representation you know diversity of ethnicity in our organization then that's
00:17:39
Speaker
having deliberate conversations about how you recruit for talent to bring in a pool of more diverse candidates. If you're having the conversation once you've already had your short list and you recognize it's all, you know, white men between the ages of 30 and 55, and you go, oh, sugar, like,
00:17:59
Speaker
We've got this homogenous group again, but you've already done the shortlist and you've already done the recruitment. That's too late to be looking at it. It's got to be all the way back into what kinds of recruitment firms are we working with? What kinds of networks are we partnering with? Because there's a lot of fantastic networks looking to support organizations in the built environment to do better in this space. Are we deliberately recruiting differently than we have in the past? If the answer is no, then we're not going to see a different pool of candidates. We're going to keep getting the same
00:18:29
Speaker
kind of talent coming in. So it's about making those changes as early as possible in the process and trying to do some deliberate recruitment in those areas. And yeah, like I said, just making sure it doesn't become a conversation of
00:18:46
Speaker
we're only going to you know recruit ethnic minorities and that's it we're not gonna interview anyone else you know you could go down that road but it's gonna start getting tricky and uncomfortable you know and so i think and if an affirms really aren't sure if they know they have some deliberate targets they want to try and meet
00:19:05
Speaker
Then I would say the best bet is to work with a consultant because a consultant can make sure that they talk through all the fine details, really look at, okay, what are you trying to achieve here? And then do that in the most ethical, responsible way possible that still supports a firm and
00:19:24
Speaker
in trying to achieve the targets or trying to achieve without going down that, you know, affirmative action, positive discrimination route that sometimes can be good, but it's a slippery slope into getting into, like I said, people feeling like they've been hired into an organization just because of who they are and not the expertise and experience they bring to the table. And so, yeah, that's a really complicated one for sure.