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The Process of Becoming with Joe Corcione
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In this episode of the Uphill Athlete Podcast, host Alyssa Clark interviews ultra runner, podcaster and coach, Joe Corcione about his journey from addiction to endurance sports. Joe shares how running became his path to sobriety and self-belief, emphasizing the importance of learning and growth over results. They dive into identity, self-worth, and how chasing performance for external validation can backfire. Joe discusses the value of embracing failure as a tool for progress and highlights how process-oriented goals foster longevity in sport and life. The conversation is a powerful reminder that becoming someone you’re proud of matters more than any finish line.
Learn more about Joe @joecorcione or @everydayultra.
If you'd like to check out our special offer for podcast listeners visit: uphillathlete.com/letsgo
You can also write to us at coach@uphillathlete.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Self-Worth and Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
If you're doing things like just for the condition of love with other people, it's going to crash and burn. And I need to tie myself worth to like, did I give it my all and did I believe in myself? And if I do those two things, regardless of what the result is, like I can be proud of myself.
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. My name is Alyssa Clark and I will be your host today. I am stoked to have an amazing runner, an
Joe Corsion and His Journey with Ultra Running
00:00:31
Speaker
amazing coach. He is a podcaster, just all around super fun, thoughtful guy who has really made an impact on the ultra running scene in a relatively short period of time.
00:00:44
Speaker
um So Joe Corsion, thanks for being on the podcast with me today. Alyssa, thanks so much for having me. And it's been so awesome, like just getting to know you over the past few months, having you on my podcast, also just watching your just stellar, just race results, like from afar. It's always inspiring to see what you're doing. And so it's an honor to be on the podcast here with you. So thank you for having me here. But most importantly, thank you for inspiring me and just being an awesome human being yourself.
00:01:12
Speaker
ah Well, I'm going to bring you on any podcast if I get that that intro. That's better than, a yeah, my husband tells me every day. um So one of the things that I love about what you do, so you have the Everyday Ultra podcast and You are really keen on educating education and helping people to learn, to understand the sport better. and that's something that really aligns with what we do at Uphill is that we're very education forward.
00:01:48
Speaker
ah But I'd love to hear how you got a start in the sport and also just what kind of led you to be like, I'm going to deep dive just education.
00:02:01
Speaker
just ah like getting into the sport, educating others and how you educated yourself to get to that point. Yeah, absolutely. And I love how you put such a big emphasis on education and learning in that because I truly believe that like a human fundamental principle in anything, whether it's running or business or careers, relationships, anything of such to my like core belief is that you can become anyone you want to be as long as you're willing to learn and put in the work.
00:02:29
Speaker
And i think so many times, especially in ultra running, we can always think about, it's about putting in the work, putting in the work, putting in the work, which is very important. You have to do the work. You have to do the training. You have to put that in.
00:02:40
Speaker
But you know, if you do the wrong kind of work, you're not going to get the right results no matter how hard you work. And so that's why that other learning component is so huge because even as you're doing the work, like you might fail, you might do the wrong things. You might not end up in the direction you want to be, but it's that learning that helps you to level up along the way.
00:03:00
Speaker
And so I love that you have that big focus on education because it's not just about putting the work, it's about learning too. And that was kind of like a huge, like emphasis in my journey. So where it kind of all started for
Running as a Tool for Sobriety and Personal Growth
00:03:09
Speaker
me. So I actually got into running because i really wanted to get sober.
00:03:13
Speaker
I was, when I was in school, when I was in first grade, second grade, was diagnosed with ADHD and I was put onto Adderall as a young kid. And granted, it really helped me through school.
00:03:23
Speaker
Like, cause I was the crazy kid who would always like, You know, he would just would just like be talking in class and just doing crazy stuff and everything. And that really helped me to stay focused, get good grades, be well behaved, all those things as well.
00:03:36
Speaker
But over the years, as I kind of grew and grew and grew, um i started to develop this self-belief in myself that I could not be like a person who functions in normal society without taking Adderall.
00:03:48
Speaker
And inherently, if you dive deeper into that belief, it really was, I'm not good enough as a human being. And I really had this fixed mindset that I was born this person who had ADHD and I couldn't become someone who can operate in real life without drugs. Like that's, that was my belief at the time.
00:04:05
Speaker
And this led me to even just get into even more substances and drugs and things when I went to college um I was drinking heavily. i was using hard drugs, mostly because I wanted to be something that I didn't believe that I was right. I wanted to be confident. I wanted to be high performing. I wanted to be all these things, too.
00:04:21
Speaker
But it just led to again, it was driven by this like lack of self-love that I had and also self-belief in myself. So all these bad decisions led to a time where basically my life blew up. I was dating a girl who I was going to marry. She ended up dumping me. I was working on wall street. I ended up leaving the job from there, moved in back with my parents.
00:04:39
Speaker
And I remember like being on the floor of my childhood room and looking up at the ceiling and being like, something's got to change or else I'm going to like, die before like i turned 30 years old and i knew that like the biggest thing i needed to do was like get sober and so going into that um i really like my first learning journey on this is i literally went to google and i just typed in how to get sober like that was that was my like way of like how to like figure this out and through all the things that i was learning out there there was a common element was exercise
00:05:11
Speaker
Now I saw that and I got a lot of fear because I was not athletic at all. Like I had never ran more than a mile. I was always picked last at gym class for every pickup game. Like people would throw footballs at me because like I would like flinch or like look weird or like anything as such. Like I was just very unathletic.
00:05:26
Speaker
And I saw that and I was like, okay, well, I'm not going to go to the gym because i don't want to get made fun of. I was like, well, maybe I can just get some running shoes. I can run outside early in the morning. No one's going to see out there. So I don't have to be embarrassed. Like, let me go ahead and do it.
00:05:38
Speaker
And, um, so got some running shoes, went out for like a quarter of a mile and it was the hardest quarter of a mile I've ever ran in my life. I was wheezing and just so just like panting and just felt like my legs were killing me. But there was something about that. It was like, oh, like I'm pushing myself here and That was something that I'd never done before. and there was something that kind of unlocked in that moment.
00:05:57
Speaker
And i kept showing up day after day and ended up running half a mile, then a mile, then two miles and three miles and signed up for my first 5K and ended up getting it done. and all along the way, like what I was doing was not just getting better at running, but I was building this belief that I can become something as long as I'm willing to learn and put in the work.
00:06:19
Speaker
And that not only led me to go from zero to 5K, but that allowed me to gain more confidence in myself to be sober. And so I ended up being getting sober six and a half years ago. That was like the last time I ever used any drugs, alcohol, anything as such, too. So six and a half years since then.
00:06:34
Speaker
But along the way, too, I've seen ultra running as a tool to keep getting better and progressing because it's learning along the way. Um, and so for me, like ultra running is all about just learning how to be a better human. And I think like, that's my vehicle and it doesn't have to be ultra running for a lot of people, but that's it. But to go to your question on like the learning stuff, I found that like the more that I learned about the sport, the better that I can get.
00:06:54
Speaker
And so I started the Everett Ultra podcast literally because I wanted to have on amazing runners. who are way smarter than me and have been doing this for years. And I wanted to learn from the best. And in my head, I was like, well, they're not just going to talk to every, any other random Joe pun completely intended there. um But if I have a podcast, I was like, maybe that like gives me a little bit of legitimacy and maybe other people want to hear along the way.
00:07:15
Speaker
And so I started just having conversations with a lot of great athletes and, Lo and behold, a lot of other people were interested too.
From 5k to 50k: Joe's Running Evolution
00:07:21
Speaker
And it just became this whole ethos of the show with me to like help listeners be a better endurance athlete by providing the tips, strategies, lessons, and everything.
00:07:28
Speaker
Cause that's what helped me to progress along the way and learning and iterating along the way. And so like, for me, there's no way that I would be sober. There's no way i'd be running the way ah was if I wasn't learning. And here's the cool thing is like,
00:07:40
Speaker
I'm there's nothing special or extraordinary about me. Like I'm a human being. And if you're listening to this, like you're a human being too. And I believe that we all have the ability to learn and implement that knowledge.
00:07:50
Speaker
And if we do that, like we can get to wherever we want to be. So that's kind of like the whole ethos and where i'm from and very long winded answer. No, that's that was amazing. There's like five things I want to put a pin in come back to but you are special. Thank you. Yeah, it's you know it's funny because I think there's this always this balance between
00:08:13
Speaker
wanting to be special and also realizing you're not special. and That's a whole other concept to get into. Steve House, who's the owner of Upathlete, we talk about this quite a bit.
00:08:25
Speaker
But one thing that I wanted to ask is what led you from okay I want to exercise I want do a 5k to I'm gonna pop in a 50k in Hawaii that was your first ultra um yeah what led to that decision of wanting to keep seeing maybe the distance or just you'd read a book sometime like how did ultras come into your or onto your radar Mm-hmm. Yeah, this is such a great question. And thank you for the kind words again, too.
00:08:58
Speaker
um i think for me, like where i was really figuring out that when I was getting sober and i when I got sober, like I had realized the thing that gave me the most belief in myself was making progress.
00:09:12
Speaker
And I truly believe like for anyone listening now, like if you ever feel stuck in your life or you feel lost or you feel like just like in a rut, anytime that I felt those things, the thing that's helped me is like making progress at something.
00:09:25
Speaker
Because when you make progress at something, it's forward motion, right? It like moves you forward and you feel like you're leveling up. And also you give yourself the self-belief that you can get out of any situation that you're currently in. And so for me, like I had realized and kind of made the connection through my journey. And, you know, a lot of the times when I was running, when I was sober, like I wasn't listening to music because I would just like reflect and think and,
00:09:45
Speaker
just kind of try to process my thoughts as much as possible. And one of the connections that I made was, wow, like the more progress that I make, like the more fulfilled that I am. And I will agree, like maybe at some points it did, it kind of led from this, you know, place of like ego or also just like feeling like I needed to prove something.
00:10:03
Speaker
um And along the way, I mean, that's something we could talk about, but I got healthier along the way about that and seeing healthy growth. Cause I think there's a difference between healthy growth and unhealthy growth, but The whole kind of notion was like the more that I push myself, like the better that I can can believe in myself to do these harder things.
00:10:18
Speaker
So when I did this first 50K, well, even just backing up a bit, I did my first 5K, which was it was a Spartan race 5K. I was like into the obstacle races in the beginning, and it was in Killington, Vermont.
00:10:28
Speaker
super steep. Yeah. You know, yeah yeah yeah. We got married by Killington. Yeah. Oh yes yeah. Killington's super steep and that's a hard one. Yeah. Super hard. Um, I did not, I did not prepare well for it. I didn't run any vert in my training at all.
00:10:43
Speaker
And I couldn't even walk the next day. Like I was crushed. And, um, there was something so cool about that because I was pretty disappointed because I'd also ran with one of my friends and, um, He wasn't putting in as much training and he like totally whooped my butt.
00:10:56
Speaker
And I love the kid too. So like no bad malice on him. But it was like for me, I was like, oh, like that, like really hurt. But something about that was the first time in my life where I had failed at something or I felt like I did, even though I had finished it.
00:11:09
Speaker
and didn't finish to like where I wanted to be, but I was almost excited by it. And so I was like, oh, I want to like learn what it takes to really
Pushing Limits and Setting Goals in Ultra Running
00:11:15
Speaker
get better. And that's when I learned about fueling. And that's when I learned about like vertical gain training. And that's when I learned about easy running. And I started to dive into a lot of those things. And that's when I did my next 10K, which was another Spartan race in in the mountains of New Jersey.
00:11:29
Speaker
And I did really well at that in my own standards. And like, I was like, oh, like, okay, like this is clicking and learning. And so I did a half marathon on there too. And I just kept progressing and getting better along the way.
00:11:40
Speaker
Now for me, like at the time it was like, I could go to a road marathon and do that next. But I was like, I kind of want to keep pushing and just see how far I can take this. And I remember I had a mentor at the time and I was talking with him And I was like, oh, like, I think I could do like a marathon. He's like, well, do you think you can go bigger?
00:11:56
Speaker
And I was like, ah maybe i don't know. And he's like, well, he's like, I think that's why maybe you should go bigger because you're not sure. And I was like, I was like, what do you mean by that? And he's like, well, think about when you went sober. Like, did you think you could do that? I was like.
00:12:07
Speaker
Not 100% at the time. And he's like, well, how did it feel when you did it? And i was like, amazing. And he's like, that's because you there was a sense of maybe I can't do this. And so that made a connection to me where i was like, oh, these goals that I'm reaching out, I think the more like they become more exciting if there is a little bit of elements that, hey, maybe I might not get it.
00:12:26
Speaker
No, I think right like setting a goal where it's 100% unrealistic, I think that's just setting yourself up for failure things like that too. But for me, like the 50K, I could have just done a flat 50K, but the one in Hawaii, it's 7,000 feet of vert. I was living in Wisconsin at the time, which vert is not a thing out there.
00:12:42
Speaker
So i was like, okay, like let me push myself and see what I can do and see how far. And just having a curiosity about that and got the 50K done, it was amazing. I it was like 11 hours. Like it was definitely a long time out there. I battled it. Like I got blisters like all over my feet. It was just crazy.
00:12:58
Speaker
Um, but it was so satisfying because I completed a goal that had a little bit of like, can I do this? And I think my whole running career has been around that. And anytime I'm working with an athlete, like I always encourage them to think a little bigger, not from the standpoint of like, they're not thinking big enough now, but I think if you just go for a goal, it's like a hundred percent achievable.
00:13:16
Speaker
I don't think it's going to be as fulfilling than setting the goal that maybe there's a small chance that it might not happen. Because when you do that, the level of self-belief you get is just unreal. No, that makes total sense. I mean, yeah I love that kind of mindset. I think it can be...
00:13:35
Speaker
it's good to come back to over and over again where it's like, yes, I, if this workout is hard enough, that means there's a chance I could fail at it. Fail. like there's a chance that I don't execute it perfectly. Cause I do, if I do on the first try, probably wasn't hard enough.
00:13:51
Speaker
So yeah, I do think there's a ton to be said about that. I am curious.
00:14:00
Speaker
So forward progress is,
00:14:04
Speaker
Was that like, I'm curious about the relationship between I'm going to keep going further and further and further. and if that continued to stay positive or if there was ever a downside of like, I'm, for me personally, this is coming from place I was trying to outrun something.
00:14:25
Speaker
where it was like, how far can I go to outrun this um fear of confinement was actually where I was coming from and being really sick.
00:14:36
Speaker
was like, okay, I'm just going to keep out running these ghosts. yeah guess what? Ghosts don't go anywhere. You can run 250 miles and you will still have ghosts unless you like sit them next to you.
00:14:49
Speaker
So I'm curious how you were able to navigate that relationship of... um something that brought so much joy and and beauty into your life? And has it stayed that or has there been another side to it as well?
00:15:04
Speaker
This is such a good question. And I appreciate you opening up about your background about this, because I think this is such a huge and important topic for anyone who goes into endurance sports, because i think I think almost every endurance athlete, there's some part of us that always wants a little bit more.
00:15:20
Speaker
and I think a lot of that can stem from childhood experiences and how we were brought up and things like that, too. Now, for me, like I had. I think an objectively very good childhood. We grew up in a very privileged environment and everything as such too. So, um but as a kid, like my mom always had very high standards for me all the time. Like I wanted have like, and listen, there's nothing on her. Like she wanted the best for me and always wanted me to succeed. Right.
00:15:41
Speaker
But if I got like an A minus as opposed to an a it wasn't good enough. And so as a kid, like that perceived that thing of like, Oh, I need to get good results to, you know, be that. And as a child, that's how I perceive that. And I think when we have these childhood perceptions, they, they shape,
00:15:55
Speaker
our insecurities, they shape our thoughts, they shape all these things, right? Obviously we can go like down like the rabbit hole. in this i think like it's very good for every endurance athlete to understand that a little bit more. And I think for me, like that took a lot of stuff, but really where it took for me though, was it's the I learned the hard way.
00:16:14
Speaker
And I'll kind of tell the story onto that too. So when I was like in this realm of like pushing myself, it was really from a place of self-growth when I had. And one of the things that I really wanted to push the dial on was like, how far could I go to push this narrative of like,
00:16:27
Speaker
I can become anyone who I wanted to become. Cause like I said before, I had no background in running athletics, anything as such. And in 2022, I had this crazy idea where I started to think about like, well, how far can I push this?
00:16:41
Speaker
And in my head I was like, okay, well, i just ran my first a hundred mile and it was, it was, you know, awesome. It was great. But I was like, okay, like what can I do to keep pushing it? And i was like, all right, well I can run a really like competitive a hundred miler. I was like, okay, that's cool. Like,
00:16:55
Speaker
that would be awesome. Well, you can try to go for top 10 at like that race. I was like, okay, that'd be like really hard. and it's like, well what if you try to go for like a golden ticket at a golden ticket race? And I remember just getting this like wave of like fear over me. And I was like, you know what? Like, let's just give it a shot. Like what, what the heck? Why not?
00:17:11
Speaker
And I trained so hard and, um, I ended up getting 10th place that year 2022. So I Far off from the golden ticket. But like in my mind, I was like, whoa, like 10th place. Like what the heck? And again, i say this on the podcast here, not to brag or like say this so stuff. And by the way, like this is all a process that like built along the way by learning and putting the work like
Personal Growth vs. External Validation in Racing
00:17:29
Speaker
that's a big thing. And so if you want to go for big goals like that, that's all it takes. And that's all I did.
00:17:33
Speaker
Obviously, there's a like a lot of mechanics behind that, but that's the whole belief that driven it. Now here's the problem though. This is where it kind of got a little bad. I got into 10 place. People started reaching out. People started to like, I started podcast started to grow. Like I started to now be a little bit on the map and I think it built a lot of this pressure on me and I, in the connection in my subconscious mind, when all this was happening was, oh, I got this good result. And like all these people are loving me because of this result.
00:18:01
Speaker
And so when I, I want to come back to Javelina next year, cause was like, oh, if I can attend this year, like I can go for it next year. Like I can do it with like a whole year of practice. And I feel like that entire training block and quite frankly, that entire season was just driven by trying to perform well to get acceptance.
00:18:17
Speaker
um And I went to Black Canyon that year, had a terrible race, blew up, went out in the front of the pack and just blew up. um Went to Canes 100K, had the worst race of my career. I mean, just absolutely just imploded out there and it was awful.
00:18:30
Speaker
um And then I went to Javelina and I did worse than I did the year before that. And of course there was like a lot of physical things, but if I really, it's so and important that you brought this up because I was actually thinking about this this morning. So it's it's very, very like timely that you thought this, but I was thinking about that. And like, all those times when I went out there, I was running for the desire to be liked and loved and tied my self-worth to the achievements that I was putting at.
00:18:53
Speaker
And that was the unhealthy thing. And um doing a lot of work with that and therapy and just self-reflection I realized that the most important thing is like going back to the roots of like, I did this for myself and for me and not the fanfare and not anything else. Like I even chose to run in the morning so no one could see me when I first started this thing out because I just wanted to do it for me.
00:19:13
Speaker
And so when I went into 2020, um, 2024, um my whole goal was like, I need to make this year just about me. And, and that's what i'm going to have to do. And I went to Coca-Dona. Yeah. I wanted to compete.
00:19:24
Speaker
I didn't, I didn't, you know, come in the top 20, but like, still like I was super happy with this role. Cause the furthest I've gone. I did your way 100, which is like way out of my comfort zone. and And I got rocked, but Hey, I was super proud of myself.
00:19:35
Speaker
And then a javelina, I went back and I never stayed at once on like a podcast or anything that I was going for a golden ticket. Like my whole thing was just getting a PR and being the best I can for myself. And I ended up PR in my time,
00:19:46
Speaker
on like a 20 degree hotter day, um, but like an hour and, and, you know, 20 minutes, which was nuts. And again, I say that because again, there's a lot of training stuff that goes into it. But I think the biggest mind shift for me was like, I'm doing this to like, for the betterment of me and and not to be liked or seeing this as a sign of like,
00:20:03
Speaker
self-worth or not even self-worth, but just being accepted by other people. And I think like if you're doing things like just for the condition of love of other people, um it's going to crash and burn. and And for me, it was like, I just need to be proud of myself and also not tie my self-worth to like what the outcome is.
00:20:19
Speaker
Like I need to tie my self-worth to like, did I give it my all and did I believe in myself? And if I do two things, those two things, regardless of what the result is, like I can be proud of myself. And that's when I started to see like my performance just exponentially increase.
00:20:32
Speaker
um just from even just making that mind shift too, which has been super helpful. Oh, love that. I mean, two things I wanted to touch on is that um i work with a mental performance coach and we talk a lot about where i identify where and when identity is formed. And it's generally formed when you're like six, seven, eight years old.
00:20:54
Speaker
And from what you said, your six, seven, eight year old old self was like, I can't be loved because I am this way. And so as soon as you started feeding that identity, like, Hey, I'm loved. If I keep doing this and I'm not going to be loved, if I don't do this, it's a recipe for disaster.
00:21:16
Speaker
Exact. Like, Yeah, I feel so similarly because of man, is it an ego trip when you're in where your messages are just pouring in where everyone wants to talk to you. Everyone is like, wow, you had this result. That's so cool. Like I'm finally, these people are noticing me.
00:21:35
Speaker
They've never noticed me. And it's crazy. It feels so good because it's like finally that seven year old is loved. And That is just one voice.
00:21:47
Speaker
My, he calls it cheap. And he's like, there's, there's a bunch of sheep grazing and some of them are really freaking loud sometimes. And that is just part of all of those sheep, but they are all of you, not just one.
00:22:02
Speaker
And so, and that seven-year-old one is like very, tends to be really loud at times. I'd say probably the one standing at the gate trying to get out ah as soon as something happens. But it's crazy how, when you're like, oh yeah, that stems from how I felt about myself at that age.
00:22:26
Speaker
And with the the illnesses that I've had, I went from feeling, capable, i like i didn't I didn't even know I wasn't supposed to be like running with high school kids, that I wasn't supposed to be just like able to do anything. And then there came until I had the high school kids be like, we're like, Alyssa can't run with us because she's annoying. at we don't like that. She challenges us.
00:22:53
Speaker
um And then my body let me down had, and so like, there's always part of me that's fighting that identity. That's like, I'm not good enough.
00:23:05
Speaker
ah that I am my, I come and last in races, that I am not this person who could do anything. i am very limited and constrained and confined. Hence that fear of confinement. So that was a lot, very long winded way to say like, it's, I, I love that you brought that up because of that connection. Like it's so powerful.
00:23:27
Speaker
And I shoot, what was the other? Oh, the other thing I was going to say is, that like, yeah, I love that, that last year you were like, I'm going to do this for myself.
00:23:41
Speaker
And whenever i have found success in racing, it is never because i stand, ah I stand at the start line and i say, I believe that I am capable of doing my best today.
00:23:52
Speaker
Cause I have put in the work to stand there and that could be winning. That could also not be winning. But I know that I am going to do the best that I am capable of doing today.
00:24:03
Speaker
And that is completely different than don't want to lose. Or I have to come in the top three to prove my worth to my seven-year-old self.
00:24:18
Speaker
Sorry, there wasn't a question there. It's just like, wow, yeah, that's... Well, it's so good that you like tie it to like identity and just intention, like those two things, even just sharing that. And again, ah i love that you're being open about this because I think it's like, it's not something that's talked about, I think too much in like a lot of the, you know, podcasts that I
Identity and Self-Narratives in Athletics
00:24:35
Speaker
hear nowadays. So I love that you bring, because like, this is like the route to not only like the roadblocks and ultra running or training or anything, it's just life.
00:24:42
Speaker
Yes. Like anytime we self-sabotage ourselves, it's like that. I love that you bring up identity too, because here's like, even just like on a smaller scale where I see it like a lot of times, and I'm sure you do with, people you coach and I'm sure like you see this myth, but if an athlete comes to me, they're like, Oh, like I'm just not a good climber or I am not a good downhill runner or anything as such too. And I was like, who Whoa, hold on a second. Like let's, let's change up this language a bit.
00:25:05
Speaker
Like maybe you say I'm not a good uphill runner yet. Like, because I think if any time, like even catch myself, like giving that, like that becomes an identity, right? If you identify as someone who's not going to be a good uphill runner, then when you're doing that, like that sheep inside your head, I love that analogy is going to be like, hold on. Like, you're not a good uphill runner in whatever sheep voice or language that it says.
00:25:27
Speaker
Right. And then like, you're going actually probably slow down a little bit or because the biggest human driver is how we identify because identity is one of the biggest things. Like an example that I always love to think about is like, when you think about someone who goes, Oh, I'm a vegetarian, they're usually never cheating, but someone who goes on like a diet, like they're probably going cheat meal. Cause they're like, Oh, I'm on a diet versus I am a vegetarian. And like, that's their identity. And it's like, we will do whatever it takes to hold onto that identity.
00:25:53
Speaker
And so I think like, that's always like a really just good thing to think about, even just from, you know, the tactical standpoint of like, where are you identifying in your training saying you're not like a good fast runner or I'm not fast. That's one I hear all the time. like, I'm not fast. And it's like, well, yeah, well, if you look down on your watch and you see a faster split, your brain's gonna be like, whoa, you're not fast.
00:26:12
Speaker
Slow down a bit. And you're gonna like self-sabotage yourself. But then on a deeper level, like you mentioned, like a lot of those identities come from six seven eight year old self and that is like where you can think about in your life like oh like am i self-sabotaging is that seven-year-old voice causing me to pump the gas or make bad decisions or heck at the very worst like you were mentioned like not believe in myself or not love myself to make these decisions that aren't as guided in in a healthy way and i think anytime like you make the decisions like based on like those limiting identities or limiting beliefs
00:26:43
Speaker
um, yeah, it just crashes and and burns. And so, ah you know, kind of sharing from my thing. And I know you mentioned like your, your area too. It's, I think in the first step is just being aware of it. Like, I think, I think the biggest thing for me that has helped me in my journey is just like, and, and, you know, I go to therapy and also too, but I do a lot of time thinking like one of the biggest piece of advice I ever got in my entire life was like, and I'll never forget this. I was running. And at the time I used to work at a tech startup. This is a couple years ago.
00:27:09
Speaker
And i was like, just curious about like how a CEO operates. And I was running with a CEO that I'd never met before. and I was like, what do you feel like is like the biggest thing for your success? And he goes, dude, he's like, I spend like two hours a day just thinking.
00:27:22
Speaker
was like, what? He's like, just thinking. He's like, yeah, I literally just like sit and I think, and I just write my thoughts down and that's it. was like, so two hours, like you're not doing anything. you're really just thinking. He's like, yeah. He's like, but let me tell you, like that thinking has like allowed me to take more intentional action in my life.
00:27:36
Speaker
And I thought about that for a second because I was like, wow, even as I analyze my own, like everything that I did running work, everything in life, like I was just so go, go, go and action oriented and everything as such too.
00:27:48
Speaker
But sometimes we never give that self to like pull back and just actually think and see like, are we making the right decision? Am I being aligned with my own values and priorities and things that I want to do too?
00:28:00
Speaker
And for me, like I always dedicate like one hour every day just to think. and just like write down my thoughts and put it down and look at them and challenge them. Or even if I do something and i'm like, why did i do that? And I like, I kind of like analyze that.
00:28:12
Speaker
And I think like the more that you can understand your own thinking, the more you can get and like aligned towards where you want to go in life. And even if you apply it to running, the more you understand how you think, the more you can be more just resilient to your own mind when you're in these races.
00:28:26
Speaker
because Yeah. mile 70, mile 80, and 100 mile race, that brain's going to throw all of that negative war power at you to try and stop you. But if you understand like what's going on behind the hood, that stuff has a lot less less power over you.
00:28:39
Speaker
And I think that's been like one of the most transformative things in my life is just giving myself some time to think. It's something I encourage everyone to do for not just be a better athlete, but just like a better human being overall. That's fantastic advice.
00:28:52
Speaker
I really love that. Because it just... I think one of the the tricky pieces and something yeah we face all the time with endurance sports is that we tend to trust the narrative that is the loudest.
00:29:07
Speaker
And we we grasp onto that of like, this is who I am. This is what I'm going to do. This is what I'm capable of. um And we believe that to be completely true. And when you give yourself the time to think, you can pull back on that absolute all in just like ground, you know, all in identity and be like, huh, well, that's one thought.
00:29:30
Speaker
Okay, here's five other thoughts. Or like, here's another way that this is shaping the entirety of who I am versus this one really loud voice.
00:29:43
Speaker
And so, yeah, I think just giving yourself time more space to a take a second to act on that and be just form a well-rounded opinion of yourself and what you're trying to do because i feel like i mean i want to kind of tie this to mountain sports and this is one of the many reasons i wanted to have you on is because you've talked a lot about becoming the person who is capable of doing x y and z Mountain sports, climbing Denali, climbing Everest, um you know, sending a really hard route.
Valuing Process Over Outcome in Sports
00:30:27
Speaker
The success rate of finishing an ultra and doing that climb is drastically different. I would say if you are able to summit maybe 20 to 30%,
00:30:39
Speaker
of what you set out to do is an incredible success rate. Ultras, you're talking like hopefully above 50, 50. Like I know John Kelly has this, like if I hit 40% of the goals that I set for myself, that's really good, which I don't disagree. I think it's much easier to finish an ultra regard, like whether or not you completely hit your goal, you're you're probably going to finish.
00:31:03
Speaker
Summoning a mountain very, very different. And so I'd love to dive in a bit more because i always want to encourage my, I have some clients who are like,
00:31:15
Speaker
um I just want to stay on the summit. I'm like, whoa, okay. Or they're really concerned about the actual climb. And I'm like, but it's all these steps of being someone who can do that climb, who is capable when a year ago, you didn't think that was even possible.
00:31:34
Speaker
And so i I'd love to hear how you frame things for both yourself and for your athletes, um, less around the outcome and more around it's so awesome that I am the person who's even capable but of believing this is possible of becoming this person oh I love that and I love that you tie that to mountain sports right where it's like the outcome is far far harder to it's pretty low and it should be because of the like the danger factor like right yeah bad things can happen in ultras but there's
00:32:09
Speaker
there's a lot more wiggle room. In the mountains, there's not wiggle room. Like you have to be definitive in your decision making. Mm-hmm. And also there's just so much out of your control with those, you go into higher altitudes. I mean, like, gosh, like storms can roll through conditions can change, like so many things that are out of your control. So I think it's an even better analogy for what you're asking for. And I love this because I think this is such a huge thing. And even just going back to, you know, kind of where I was mentioned before, so tied up in my self-worth and the outcome, like this is something that I had to learn all the way. And the thing that I always, even when I'm working with athletes and talking with them, it sounds like you're very much aligned to this too, as well.
00:32:48
Speaker
is anytime that they like sign up for a race or a goal or something that they have the thing that i always want to stress is that the process has to be even way more worth it than the goal that you are going for so like for example like i recently had an athlete come to me and they're like oh i want to do cocodono 250 next year i'm like okay like that's awesome it's a big goal like it's amazing And i was like, well, like, why do you want to do it? And they're like, well, like the race just seems super cool. And I would just love to get the finish.
00:33:17
Speaker
And I would love to get that belt buckle and have an amazing accomplishment. It's like, awesome. Great. Like, I love that. It's amazing. And I was like, okay, well, what do you think about like the the training kind of style going into it and they're like, well, what kind of training is it going be? It was like, well, like, we're probably going to have to increase volume here. It's going a lot of hiking versus like running. It's going a pretty much different. This is a runner who has been doing a lot of like running, running races. So it was very, very different.
00:33:39
Speaker
And they were like, I don't think I'd enjoy that very much. And I was like, well, I'm gonna be 100% honest with you. I don't know if maybe this is the right goal for you. and they're like, well, what do you mean? Like, this is something that I really wanna do.
00:33:50
Speaker
And my philosophy is like, you gotta love the process so much more than the goal itself. Because again, like you said, it's so well is it's not about the belt buckle. It's not about the finish. It's not about the outcome that you get on race day, i guess in Coca-Cola race days, but yeah there days um but all that being said, it's not, it's about the process, but even more than just the process, it's about who you become along the way.
00:34:12
Speaker
Like that is the most important thing. And if you can find the value in that, it doesn't matter what happens on the day that you go and do it. And the way that I always think about it is like, if you look at a whole process, like call it like training for a mountain race or anything, or training for that big climb, like you were mentioning, like that is months and months and months and days and days and days and hours and hours and hours of hard work and dedication and pushing yourself and learning and falling on your face and failing and getting back up and getting better and having the wins and having the lows and doing all those things.
00:34:40
Speaker
But when you do your attempt, like that is a small, small percentage of the overall entire process that you put into it. So the way that I always think about it is like if you put all your weight onto those like one to two to three days, however many days like your goal is going to take versus the grand scheme of the whole things.
00:34:59
Speaker
Like you can set yourself up for some real big disappointment because number one, anything can happen on those three days and completely out of your control, especially with mountain sports. Right. Whereas like over the course of a long enough time frame, yes, there can be unexpected, unexpected stuff along the way.
00:35:13
Speaker
But on a long enough timeline, you have a little bit more agency over how you handle that process. And I think like that's like the big thing, even just from like an application perspective, where I always say it's like. The process, because it's 99% of the journey, you've got to love it a lot more and celebrate yourself on that too.
00:35:27
Speaker
But I also tell athletes this, if you go through the process and you like nail the training, and when I say nail the training, it's not making up every single workout or anything such. Yeah, it's probably 80%. Exactly. Yeah, 80% is great.
00:35:39
Speaker
like they're slow yeah yeah eighty percent' great and And by the way, I see, I'm sure you do too. I see that a lot of times with athletes, like if they miss like one or two work, it's like, Oh, the train is ruined. It's like, oh my gosh. Like, yeah.
00:35:50
Speaker
Yes. Well, there'll be like, i I can't, I can't sum it up. like, you missed one day. You're good. Like, shush the sheep. Like you're, you're okay. and then you have ones that miss five days a week. And you're like, and they're like, so I'm fine to do the 50 K tomorrow. Right. and you're like, uh, yeah.
00:36:10
Speaker
No, I mean, you're an adult go for it, but I would not recommend this. Right. I know it's like always like that balance team. Like don't want to miss too much, but if you miss one or two here and along the way, that's totally okay. Life happens.
00:36:23
Speaker
But I think if you nail the training, but most importantly, like if you become a better person that you were in the beginning of the training block, It doesn't matter what happens to you on race day. And I'll give you an example about this really recently for me. So I was training my butt off of the Arizona monster 300 when I did coconut. It was my first 200 mile race and I learned so much along the way and I was so excited about that.
00:36:44
Speaker
So going into Arizona monster, I was excited to learn all those lessons and be better based on what I learned before. And I probably trained the hardest that I did out of any race, any training block ever. And I was just not even just like a way better athlete, but just a way better person because I had more priorities. My business was growing. Like, you know, I was, you know, me and my wife, like we're trying to like build a future together and everything too. And so there was a lot of stuff I had to navigate, but I still like hit all the goals and training that I wanted to. And I became this stronger person and that was awesome. And I told myself,
00:37:14
Speaker
Right before the race, I was like, yeah, I would love to win this race, but also at the same time, it doesn't matter at all. And people were like so shocked when I said that they're like, what do you mean? It doesn't matter at all. i was like, yeah, the wind would be nice, but that's just a consequence to like the build of the process of like the person that I became along the way. And that's the big win.
00:37:30
Speaker
And then funny enough in the race, like what happened was like, i ended up running 200 miles, like nearly flawlessly in my opinion, like based on what I did at Cocodona. And then my knee ended up swelling up.
00:37:42
Speaker
I couldn't bear any weight on it. It was horrible. It was awful. And I ended up making the decision to pull out of the race. Cause I didn't want to risk long-term injury. And that was a big challenge. I remember like my own thoughts playing in my head was saying like, yeah, you said this didn't matter.
00:37:55
Speaker
And of course, like the DNF hurt, but you know what? Yeah, it didn't matter because I came out of that race, like just a way better person. not even just the race itself, but the whole process, a way better person. And to me, that was the biggest win of all.
00:38:09
Speaker
And I think that was like such like a realization, even for me, like even after going to DNF, I was still so proud of myself. And I think that's not something to say like, I'm a very optimistic person or positive person. It's like, if you can come out of like,
00:38:22
Speaker
Even a goal that you didn't hit, but you're proud of who you became along the way, like that's huge. Because even during the race for this 200 miles that I ran, believed that I could win. And that belief, I would have rather gone 200 miles, believe that I can win the entire time and drop out, than actually go through and come in second place, not thinking that I had the belief to win.
00:38:43
Speaker
And I think that, like that belief is greater than any win that i could have ever had in my entire life. And I think that's like, that's the true thing that I get super stoked about.
00:38:55
Speaker
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00:39:12
Speaker
It's a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals. Check it out uphillathlete.com slash let's go. uphillathlete.com slash L-E-T-S-G-O.
00:39:29
Speaker
I love that like you can still sit there and say that because it is one thing to say like, I don't care if I summit. I don't care. it Like i just, you know, I grew. but to actually be like, yeah, I still believe that. Like that means it was really firm. And I can tell you're like, like you get psyched about it.
00:39:45
Speaker
i love it. Um, yeah, what, you know, i find it really interesting and I'm curious how you manage this with your athletes as well. But when i we get a lot of people who they've always dreamed of climbing Rainier, they've always dreamed of climbing Denali. And so it's very often this kind of one-off thing where they're like, we're going to train super hard for four months. We're going to go climb Rainier and then I'm going to go back to normal life, which is amazing.
00:40:13
Speaker
But I always am a little bit sad when that happens because to me, I always hope that someone sees this as building who you are. And also like my mental training coach brought this up to me, but like building your legacy, like what do you want to leave behind?
00:40:36
Speaker
What do you want to impact? Who do you want to impact? And does that change? Does that singular race, that climb, et cetera, define the the overall picture of the legacy?
00:40:49
Speaker
Or is it who you're becoming along the way? The people you're impacting, the the lives you're changing, the life you are actually changing um within yourself.
00:41:00
Speaker
And so i think first off, I'm so glad that you did not push because so often people are like, it doesn't matter. I'm just going to gut it out. And I'm very much not in that camp, maybe a little bit to a fault at some times where I'm like, yeah, you know, like this just, it isn't worth putting myself in this massive hole of risking future injury because i try to really have that bigger picture in mind. And I think that when we get so focused that this race result, this summit is going to make or break the
00:41:36
Speaker
my entire legacy, or it's the only reason standing on someone's the only reason why i want to train. It's, I just, I want to keep encouraging people that it's so much more than that.
00:41:51
Speaker
It's so much bigger. It's so much longer in the scheme of our life to invest in that process than that very singular, honestly, incredibly narrow process.
00:42:05
Speaker
like success or failure. Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's, it reminds me a lot, like even just you like mentioning this to one quote that like totally changed my life and, and something that i think, and this is how I even explain it to athletes too. Like when they're very like set about a race too, like on I always sit like this quote always comes back to me. And that is when people have a really good story or they see a really good story and they get very inspired by the character they're not inspired by the outcome that they get, but they're inspired about how hard they worked to go for the thing.
00:42:38
Speaker
and And I always think about Rocky from Rocky, like from the movie Rocky. That's like one of my favorite things ever. And sorry to spoil the movie if you haven't seen it yet, but he doesn't win at the end.
00:42:49
Speaker
Like he doesn't win, he loses, but he's a guy who went from someone who was like a deadbeat on the street. No one believed in him. And he worked his butt off when he got the opportunity of a lifetime to fight the champ. and he went the distance for him for 12 rounds, which I don't think had ever been done before.
00:43:03
Speaker
And he ended up not winning, but he lost the, movie and that's known as like one of the most inspirational movies of all time. And again, like he didn't win, but he became this person. And that's why it's like known as like one of the greatest things of all time.
00:43:16
Speaker
And so I think about that every single time, like someone's like, I want like to, you know, show myself that I can do this thing. And in my head, I'm like, well, if something happens on race day or whatever, and like, you don't do this thing, like,
00:43:27
Speaker
at least if you can be the person on the start line and you believe in yourself that you can do it. And of course there's objective measures, like as an athlete, like you're hitting the right paces and things like that too, that you can measure in training. But even just beyond that, like if you just believe that you can do it, like that's the most important thing in the end of the day, because if you build yourself to believe that you can do it, anytime you have a goal in your life,
00:43:47
Speaker
Like for the longterm that you want to do, like you can still go ahead and do those things. And even for me, like from a longevity perspective, I think, I think that even comes when I'm working with athletes. Like, I think it's so important for athletes to have a vision of where they want to go and, and not necessarily just for the race, but like, if they're like, Oh, I want to do this for a while. It's like, okay, well then what do you want to do for that longterm?
00:44:08
Speaker
So I have them really zoom out and like go over what they want to do for the next year is not map it out because things change, but at least like have a direction, right? It's like, Oh, I want to do UTMB one day. Oh, I would love to go for this FKT or I would love to run Cocodona one day.
00:44:21
Speaker
And it's like, great. Like now you have this vision. And then that way too, like you're not so pigeonholed until like one specific race or event, because you know that there's a greater thing that you are reaching for. So like for me with Arizona monster, it's like,
00:44:33
Speaker
yeah, I wanted to win that, but like long-term, like I'd love to go out and be very competitive at Coca-Dona and 200 mile races. And if I had just gutted it out for the finish there, like I could have blown out my knee and then probably not be running for like a while. And I knew that just didn't hit the long-term vision.
00:44:47
Speaker
And so like that way it doesn't get you so like myopic on like the one specific race, because what you're really out there for is that long-term vision of what you're going towards. towards And I think that can make a lot of things, like even when I think about like athletes who deal with like post-race depression around thing. And like, I get it from time to time. There's a very neurological and biochemical thing that happens in your brain that goes on that with dopamine levels and everything. But beyond that point, I i see that more commonly in athletes who don't have like a goal after the goal.
00:45:15
Speaker
And I'm not saying you have to have a race signed up before you finish the next one, but at least like, if you know that there's a long-term direction and you finish that one race or maybe whatever happens on that summit or anything that you do, like, you know, you're still working towards something.
Long-Term Vision and Embracing Change
00:45:29
Speaker
And anytime like people feel lost in life, it's because they usually don't have an aim for what they're shooting for. And so like, I think that's like a really good way to not only like, you know, make the right decisions in the race, but also not to put so much stock into it if things go right or wrong, but also to like keep that longevity going for a long enough timeline. So I think having a great vision for who you want to be as an athlete, as a person, as partner, as whatever area of your life is, I think that's incredibly important. Something i always encourage my athletes to do.
00:46:01
Speaker
Oh, I love that. i think, yeah, and it, that long-term plan, i mean, I always have five to, like, I have five to 10 years always planned out. Like, okay, this is going to be, this is where we're going to I'm sure you do as well.
00:46:19
Speaker
it also releases that pressure the, I have to get it right this one time or it's never going to happen again. It's like, if we truly care about something and the people around us care about us being the best version of of ourselves, we'll get another chance.
00:46:39
Speaker
Hopefully, like, you know, obviously life happens where unexpected things come up. But like, i think having this all or nothing mentality around,
00:46:52
Speaker
either do this today or it's never going to happen again is, is super dangerous. And also like, i think you're going to get another chance. Like that's hopefully, especially again with mountains where it's like quite literally life or death. Sometimes if you make that push.
00:47:10
Speaker
Yeah. I think just continuing to hold that, like maybe it's not going to look exactly the same. Also, I was just thinking about this the other day where I was thinking about like,
00:47:22
Speaker
People often talk about when they have kids where they'll be like, I, my old self is dead. where like, I will never be the person I was before i had this kid. And I think so often about how, when we accomplish a huge goal,
00:47:42
Speaker
we will never be who we were or we don't before that. And so often I catch myself doing this in training. i'm I'm sure my athletes do where they'll be like, well, when I did this training, it went really well in this regard. Or you're thinking back on a workout and you're like, but I absolutely nailed that workout. It's like, but you aren't Joe or Alyssa from last September.
00:48:06
Speaker
You're here now. Like you have so many things that have happened since then and like yeah I all the time I'll be like oh well I did this workout really well before hurt and like why am I not doing it this way or why is this happening it's like well because you're a different person and I think it's really scary think about like I get at some point we'll have kids and I'm terrified of the concept of old Alyssa is going to be dead. It's like, well, first of all, maybe we can be less morbid in the way that we say
00:48:43
Speaker
that um But i do think that it is it's like letting go also of who you were because you are never going to be that person.
00:48:55
Speaker
like You're always going to be something different than what you were a week ago, a month ago, two years ago. And I think often that leads to discomfort after the event. I was reading...
00:49:12
Speaker
Is it Caleb Olson who won Transville Kanye? Sorry, Caleb. Yeah, its he his hair too he's yeah he wrote this beautiful piece where he was like, I am not the person Like I became someone who could win transvolcania and I cannot just keep pushing upwards because that's not how it works.
00:49:35
Speaker
I have to settle in who I am right now, the level that I'm at, and it might dip a little bit. It might, but I can't just keep going like this. And I just thought i was like, i mean, I've thought a lot about hurt. It's actually like in many ways, hurt's still really emotional to me because I'm like, I,
00:49:57
Speaker
have have felt like I just need to be on this like ever increasing angle. And I know that's not realistic. I say this to my athletes, everyone says this to themselves, but i am not who I was before hurt.
00:50:11
Speaker
I am the person afterwards and I need to sit in that and be okay with that. And also, be like, i can't keep leveling up.
00:50:24
Speaker
Like, yes, you can level up a lot, but it's actually like my coach, I'll say like steps forward and steps backwards. And he'll be like, they're just steps. And so I think there's so much to be said about when we're feeling that angst, like we do need that direction, i think, to kind of ground us of what is next, but also sitting and thinking of being really comfortable, just resonating in the moment of like, okay, I'm actually, I'm really not like, I'm okay with not being the person that I was before her, before kids, et cetera.
00:50:57
Speaker
you know, these big life events and I'm growing into who I'm becoming. And that is, is uncomfortable. It's beautiful. It's messy. It's raw.
00:51:08
Speaker
And that is powerful. um So yeah, I guess who, who is Joe at this moment, having worked so hard,
00:51:22
Speaker
to To put yourself out there of winning Arizona and you, yeah, you were there for sure. Who are you right now? And like absorbing all of those pieces.
00:51:35
Speaker
Yeah. Well, so, so beautifully said too, about everything that you mentioned in there. I love that. I think that's so great, especially for people who are going through big transitions in life, right? Like either getting married or having kids or, you know, maybe, yeah know, moving on from, you know, like I think about even like Des Linden now and the journey that she's about to go on where, you know, she's been ripping the marathons and now she's going to the ultras. Like, it's like a whole different kind of thing. And so I'm, I'm like excited to see that,
00:52:01
Speaker
So I think it's a very, very important thing to think about now for me, like, i guess like, you know, and we were kind of talking about this before, like Arizona monster. And I, I'm very grateful about the way that it went, because if I had just went out and striped and won that race, who knows, like, and I don't know like what it would be, but I would probably guess to assume that I would have leaned more towards the ability of like, Oh, like I nailed it. And that was awesome. And that was great.
00:52:30
Speaker
But I didn't, and I actually didn't finish the race and I had a knee issue happen. And to kind of give some context on that too, just a little bit more tactically, like what had happened was I had a muscular imbalance in my hips and for a hundred miles, like basically my, my whole plan was like, okay. I'm like, if I was training for a hundred mile race, I was trying train one time a week.
00:52:49
Speaker
Now this imbalance was so small that if I ran a hundred miles, it wouldn't hurt or wouldn't like cause any issues. And when I did coconut, I did hike a lot of it. So like it never really had the issue, but I ran everything that I, that was either flat or downhill.
00:53:02
Speaker
And so when you do that over the course of 200 miles, when you're running really hard, that imbalance is going to cause some issues and have that there too. And basically was a lack of strength training. Now, why the heck am I going on to the tactical stuff? Well, Here's the thing.
00:53:13
Speaker
If that didn't happen to me at the Arizona monster, i wouldn't have known that i can be a better runner. If I strength train a lot more and took that a lot more seriously. And that lesson that I learned is going is made me a better person after that race.
00:53:27
Speaker
And so like, I think the, the trend, the whole thing that I'm trying to encourage here is that like, even if you have a bad race or it doesn't go your way, you can still come out a better person. And in fact, I will even say this, I would even argue,
00:53:39
Speaker
and And I'm not saying intentionally have bad races or anything. Like that's not MO here too. You're going to become out an even better person after a bad race and a good race. I think that full
Learning from Failures and Setbacks
00:53:49
Speaker
heartedly. So because in my journey, and I always think about the timeline of like success is never linear. There's always ups and downs and everything like that.
00:53:56
Speaker
The story that I always bring myself up to countless times again, as Jim Walmsley at Western States, like the first year he went to go do it, he was on track to win a course record, took a wrong turn, went off course, walked it in, ended up not getting the first place.
00:54:08
Speaker
Next year he comes back and he goes out and he DNFs the race does worse than he did the year before so now he's actually like going down third year he comes back course record and then continues to go on a tear it took Jim three times and then guess what not only did he get that then he goes to UTMB again like didn't get it didn't get it didn't get it boom comes back now he's the course record holder and so I think about that a lot it's like well Jim everyone sees this now But I think with Jim, like people don't understand. It's like he probably learned so much from those experiences.
00:54:35
Speaker
And I even think about like my journey. It's like even when I was just trying to get sober, there were days where i was like, today's the day. I'm going to stop taking it. And I would make it until like 2 p.m. And then like I would have like headaches and stuff and then I would go back to it.
00:54:47
Speaker
But those opportunities allowed me to learn what i need you to be better so I can control my mind to get sober. All the bad races that I had, like, for example, like Wes mentioned before, and that whole season I had where it was just terrible and it was driven by this like need to feel accepted.
00:55:02
Speaker
I only learned that because I had those bad races. And every time I've had those bad races, I've implemented those lessons and I became better along the way. And so like for me, like I always tell people, it's like when you have a failure, i don't even want to say failure, it's really just a lesson.
00:55:16
Speaker
Like there's no such thing as losses. There's just lessons. It's either you win or you learn. And because of that, like failure is the most data rich source of information you can ever get in your entire life. Because like now you know something that you can do to get better at that thing. For me, for Arizona monster was, Hey, you need to be strength training a lot more and take this very, very seriously. If you want to run 200s.
00:55:35
Speaker
Awesome. That's great. How can I not get excited about that? Cause now I got a path to be better in the future. And so, yes, it's okay. Like you hear me right now, all jazzed up, but what you don't hear is also right after I DNF'd, yes, there were tears. Yes, it hurt. I'm not saying that like it doesn't hurt. It does.
00:55:50
Speaker
Let yourself feel that and honor that. And I'm not just trying to say be a blind optimist and be like, yeah, everything's OK. But I think the thing that everybody like once you let all of that pain and maybe just grieving of the result kind of go past, the thing that always gets me excited again is that on a long enough timeline, as long as I keep showing up and applying the lessons from my failure, I will get to where I need to be.
00:56:12
Speaker
And, and that's like the coolest thing is that like, and again, to go back to your thing of like, cause it's never about that one race. Like it might take you one time, two times, three times, heck, it might even take five times.
00:56:24
Speaker
But if you keep getting back up, you learn the incredible treasure troves of information you got from that failure. And you keep the belief in the human element that as long as you're willing to learn and to put in the work, you will get there.
00:56:36
Speaker
And again, it's not about the outcome. It's about who you become to get to that process. And failure is inevitable part of the journey. Our mutual friend, Killian Korth, he was going to pace me out in Arizona Monster. And I remember he told me this as soon as I dropped. He's like, listen, man, failure is a part of the journey to success. And I was like, that is so true.
00:56:51
Speaker
And so like, although the story is still being written now, like I know in the future, I'll look back on Arizona Monster and be like, that was one of the best things that ever happened to me in my life. And i it, it's scary to say that because it still does hurt to some extent, but I think about even Javelina, like i was telling the journey in there, I would have not had that performance if I didn't have that horrible performance year before guaranteed. And I think like that makes you me so grateful for every single heartbreak loss, failure, whatever those things are. And I think that,
00:57:21
Speaker
when you, when to even just bring it back to your point, if you don't put your stock in the outcome and you put your love in the process, you become to become much more compassionate about your failures. And I think that is going to keep you in the game a lot longer because you're not going to see it as a semblance of self-worth. You're going see it as a propeller to get better.
00:57:39
Speaker
Amazing. Yeah. I truly look at the races that have gone ah quote unquote really well and I'm like huh it worked okay move on like there's so little honestly there's very very little that I actually learned from it whereas every single time i have had I'll call them big DNFs like it felt like oh my gosh that one like crushed my soul a little bit the outcomes have been absurdly positive like changed my life positive
00:58:17
Speaker
And it's, you have to be willing to be open to that. But that's not to say, um like Madeira last year, DNF'd and I was honestly sadder than I, I was so sad.
00:58:34
Speaker
i was like going on a hike being like, I hate everything. Everything is ugly. i just, I don't want to talk to anyone. i wish this little kid would like move out of my way. Like I, I was so grumpy I was just sad. Like I was really, really sad. And it actually was because so many things had been building up um that I needed to actually let go of my old coach.
00:59:00
Speaker
Like there was so many things and it was like, I had to have that to grow and growth is uncomfortable. But it's so, I could not agree more that, yes, failure is, and again, not my favorite word, but like, that's what we say, is so data rich because it gives us like, oh, that didn't work.
00:59:21
Speaker
Okay, cool. Wow. i have so much to go off of. And what's kind of funny is that ah I just recently also had a ah DNF. We're kind of, we're, we're ah yeah, reminiscing, I guess, or
00:59:39
Speaker
being like uh able to collaborate on on that feeling i realized that i i was literally trying to fix things that weren't broken i was like i'm gonna fix all these things i'm gonna bring in x y and z to level up to get better because i just wanted to keep growing and i was like wait but actually you were fixing things that were not broken like stop try i told Like two of my coaches, I was like, when I next spring have like, hopefully, you know, great summer, fall, whatever. And in in spring, i try to change everything again.
01:00:15
Speaker
Please just tell me to sit on my hands. Like tell me that it's not broken. We're not trying to fix it. Stop. Because I'm always I'm always like get this itch of like, I've got to I've got to do this. I've got to do that. Like this could be better. That could be better. It's like, well, actually, you overdo it, you're going to push things out of alignment that were actually not broken.
01:00:36
Speaker
So it's ah it's so funny where it's like last year I needed to make a really drastic change. And this year was like, I made a drastic change that I shouldn't have.
01:00:47
Speaker
And I should have just been a little bit more conservative and been like, yeah, this is working really well. So that's just, ah you learn so much from those moments for sure.
01:00:59
Speaker
Yeah, a hundred percent. and And I love the way that you even described it too, where it's like, when you have a great race, it's kind of like, Oh, like that was awesome. And that was great. Like it almost, i don't want to say, I think it like subconsciously is one of those things where it's like you, like, I feel like anytime I've had like a DNF or anything of that such, or, I mean, I've only had one DNF, but anytime I've had like a race that didn't go the way that I wanted to, like, there's always like, kind of like this little bit of a drive that kind of comes back.
01:01:24
Speaker
Like not, and you gotta be careful, right? Cause you don't want it to be like this, like drive of self-worth, but almost like drive of like, I i want to get better. Like I want to get better. Now I say want, not need, like, you know, cause I think that's a whole different thing. If you're like, you need to get better.
01:01:39
Speaker
That's a whole different story, but it's like, I think even so like going through a race that like hadn't gone my day is like, almost gives me drive to like, want to be better. Like I even think about that first 5k I talked about where I got crushed by You know, but like that drove me to want to go for that 10 K. I don't know if I would have gone for the 10 K. Like if I didn't even have like the bad 5 K. Right. And I think that's like a beautiful part of the process. And I remember when I had that horrible race at Javelina, remember like my whole goal was like, I need ah or have chin I shouldn't say need, but like, I really want to go into Javelina next year. And I was so driven to like, just, just motivated to, to, to get it in a great way. And and I did, and that was awesome.
01:02:17
Speaker
But even after that, like, I felt like i was like, Oh, like that was a great race. And that was awesome. And I think, um, you you know, I, I think with the wins, it's always good to just be even humble if you have them and, and also understand that, like, there's still even stuff to learn along the way. And that doesn't come from a place of like, even if you nail it, like, don't always look at the bad things and have a negativity bias, but,
01:02:39
Speaker
I think we always, as humans have to be continually learning. Like, and I think, you know, as a coach for me and your coach as well, I'm sure you can relate to this. Like we were seen as like experts and, and we have a lot of knowledge in the sport, but I think every great coach and every great person and athlete, we're always learning.
01:02:55
Speaker
And I think that's the most beautiful thing about life is that life is just a game where we're learning and nobody has it figured out. And if they say that they have figured out, then, you know, run away, run away. not good um But that's the most beautiful thing. The most like there's no better game than the game of life.
01:03:11
Speaker
And I think what makes it so great is that we're finding clues and puzzle pieces and lessons and nuggets of information along the way. and of course, sometimes it's painful and it stinks and we're covered in blood, sweat, and tears and it's awful, but would you want to have it any other way?
01:03:26
Speaker
Because you look back and you write the most epic story of all time. Like once you do come back from that and that's just like the coolest thing of all time, not to like, you know, get the hype from people, but the coolest thing for you to note look back and be like, I didn't let that failure define me. And I didn't let that that setback put me in a place like and I overcame that like that's the coolest thing like really really awesome book um I believe it's called like how bad do you want it great great book um Fitzgerald I think Scott Fitzgerald is the author um I could be um or it might be Matt Fitzgerald it's I think it's Matt because I've read I've read it yeah how bad do you want it yeah Yeah. Shout out to Matt Fitzgerald. Yeah. So, but like in there, it says like, there's no greater feeling than feeling like you're going to give up and then showing yourself that you didn't.
01:04:13
Speaker
And like, I'm like, Oh, like that is so good. And I think if you could do that in life, like that's amazing. And again, like giving up doesn't necessarily mean, and you know, like running through an injury in a race, but that's not what I'm saying. But I'm talking about in terms of a long enough timeline, like, again, like not in the thing, but if you keep getting back up on the long enough timeline, that's the thing that is just going to lead to fulfillment and beyond.
01:04:37
Speaker
Oh, that's, I love it. It is Matt Fitzgerald. I just looked it up. Yes. Shout out Matt. yeah Yes. Yeah. No, he's, he's got some great books for sure. Um, Yeah, well, I feel like that and we could talk for hours.
01:04:50
Speaker
um Definitely. I feel like it's going to happen. But I feel like that's a great place to to wrap at this point.
Conclusion and Invitation to Joe's Podcast
01:04:58
Speaker
um Joe, can you tell people where they can find you um about the podcast?
01:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, that would be awesome. Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me. And by the way, if you're listening to this podcast, I mean, you are in great hands with an amazing host and person here in Alyssa. So I just want to say, like, if you want to continue to just be a better person, like keep listening to Alyssa and diving into her world and everything. So.
01:05:22
Speaker
huge shout out to you my friend you are doing amazing things for athletes all across the world so just want to say thank you for doing you um yeah so we have the everyday ultra podcast you can find us wherever podcasts are at um just search everyday ultra and you'll see a picture of me i think running my first 50 milers what the cover is uh i keep it there too is almost like a good reminder to see how far we've come along the way um but yeah we post episodes every week elissa's been on the show also listening to the episode elissa it's so good Um, and, uh, yeah, so we'd love to have you on there too. And, um, yeah, just honored, honored to be on this amazing podcast. You have been listening for a while and it's just so great just to, uh, to be here and share just such great ideas with you. So thank you for having me on the show.
01:06:02
Speaker
Well, thank you for being on. I feel like i didn't even ask you that many questions. It was more just like riffing off of conversations. So thank you for going with the flow on that. of Normally a little bit more asked, but I was just like, wow, you just made me think of this. So thanks for for contributing so much. And yeah, definitely check out the podcast. It's awesome. Joe has such a beautiful way of getting...
01:06:28
Speaker
like getting his guests to to really open up in in ways that are unique and and really powerful. So um definitely recommend it. And Joe, what do you have coming up next?
01:06:40
Speaker
So, but thank you, by the way, appreciate it. I have Tau 200 coming up in June 13th. So, um, this, I'm kind of glad I was signed up for Tau originally because my plan was like, I was going to do Arizona monster and do Tau just to kind of like see what it's like to do very close back-to-back multi-day events.
01:06:57
Speaker
Cause I'd never experienced that before. um but now it's like, I want to race Tau because originally the plan was, I wanted to just kind of just finish it just to kind of see what it was like. I knew it wouldn't be a hundred percent of the Arizona monster.
01:07:07
Speaker
But now after coming to that, i was like, I want to race this and perform well and and go for the podium. So, yeah, that's the next thing. um The knee is like pretty much at 99% now. So we're we're back to almost full training, which is great. So we should be able to do that.
01:07:21
Speaker
And then Kodiak 100 at the end of the year, hoping to nab a top 10 spot to to get into UTMB because the lottery has not been as nice to me. um So we're going to try to make our own luck. And if not, if, you know, if Tau doesn't go well and Kodi doesn't well, again, doesn't matter. I'm just excited on who I could become in the process. And that's the biggest thing.
01:07:40
Speaker
Love that. Awesome. Well, thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete podcast. If you can rate, review, subscribe, helps us to help more athletes. It's not just one, but a community.
01:07:52
Speaker
We are Uphill Athletes.
01:08:08
Speaker
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01:08:25
Speaker
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01:08:39
Speaker
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