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Aqua Tofana, Part One
45 Plays1 month ago
New series alert! We've got another old timey one for you! Let's talk about Aqua Tofana and head of the Italian poisoners' ring, Giulia Tofana.
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Topic
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic and I have ADHD and we are letting our hyperfixations fly.
00:00:15
Speaker
Today we are fixating on Aquatofana. Music
00:00:30
Speaker
Welcome back, everybody. Hello. We have officially wrapped up our Garfield series, and apologies for not getting an episode out to you last week.
00:00:41
Speaker
My kids went back to school, and half of us in the house got sick, and there was all the back-to-school things, and and time is hard. And so just didn't happen last week. You've recovered, though.
00:00:53
Speaker
Physically and mentally, hopefully?
Nikki's Aquatofana Obsession
00:00:55
Speaker
ah Mentally is always dubious, but physically, yeah. Good to have you back. So today we're doing another old timey one. This is so I have like an arsenal of topics that I've researched for a while. So it's easy to put together a script. And this is one because I'm obsessed with this story.
00:01:14
Speaker
Today we are talking about... a could be mythical, I guess, a woman who provided poison in Italy in the 17th century to women whose husbands were abusive or bad.
00:01:30
Speaker
Also, not necessarily that too, but we'll get into it in the story, but that was the purpose of it. So we are in the 17th century Italy. I want to share my sources. The main source I used is the podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff.
00:01:44
Speaker
Highly recommend. um She does a tremendous deep dive and her research is amazing. I also watched YouTuber Bailey Sarian. She did a video about this.
00:01:55
Speaker
I read the book The League of Lady Poisoners by Lisa Perrin. Allthingsinteresting.com. aspectsofhistory.com mike-history.com and the dash is spelled out d-a-s-h and Wikipedia.
Urban Legends and Research Approach
00:02:10
Speaker
So before we get in too far, we kind of wanted to talk about what an urban legend is. Yeah, I mean, you talked about your process with this is that that you kind of have things that you get obsessed about. And and the way we do it is then Nikki writes them all up.
00:02:23
Speaker
And I don't really know anything about it. And then she sends me a script. And then I just kind of research it from there and see if I find it interesting or what direction I go with it. And there's something always that piques your interest. Yes.
00:02:37
Speaker
that I don't think about. I'm going to tell you, it took a little bit of this one, ah but I'll tell you why. At first I was completely confused. I had no background on what the heck this was. And I was completely confused at like where we were ever even going with this. i Like I didn't, yeah.
00:02:52
Speaker
So that was, that was part of it. um Yeah. So it is fun to see it differently. And I did find it interesting, but yes, in a different way than I'm sure you did. And I, So, yeah, I, um, so just like, cause I needed like the quick overview context, which you kind of did say. So there's this product called Aquatafana, which is a fabulous name.
00:03:10
Speaker
I know, isn't it? Yes. And, uh, yeah. And so they just, I mean, I'll call it like, to me, it's more like ah like an urban legend is what I would top call it. Um, and actually reading through this made me think about, okay, well, what, what component, what are the components of an urban legend? What,
00:03:28
Speaker
What makes them, what gives them stay power? Yeah. So I did look it up a bit. And so before we go into this, like, I just want to like, key just a couple of key components that I just kind of want us to set like, keep our ears out for, and then maybe kind of go back through it at the end. And cause it fits this model.
17th Century Women's Rights and Marriage Laws
00:03:45
Speaker
just perfectly. So um I'm going to actually just read real quick. So an urban legend consists of secondhand, often cautionary stories set in a contemporary context that appears plausible, but lacks ver verifiable evidence. Key components include friend of a friend framing, relatable, but archetypal protagonist in details, a narrative that taps into some common fears or social anxieties.
00:04:08
Speaker
um This story, you know, usually has a be beginning, middle, in and end. sometimes a punchline and then is shared through word of mouth. And then, you so you know, key components would be just plausible and fictional, obviously some pieces that are, you know, are historical or factual. And then also we go to like societal fears and anxieties, moral warnings.
00:04:28
Speaker
So I do think that that this fits into that mold really well. So I think I'd like to re-look at that when we get back and keep that in mind, talking through it. So. Yeah. Now, I will also say that there is evidence that a lot of this did happen. Like there was a person, and but the nature of story yeah is that it can evolve and change and depending on who's telling it and who's hearing it and all of those things.
00:04:58
Speaker
And when you don't have, you know, it's such an old story, you don't have a lot of firsthand accounts or documents. It's Difficult to verify what's real and what's not.
00:05:09
Speaker
I will say in that vein, the podcast, the cool, ah cool people who did cool stuff. The host, Margaret, is very intentional about like in that podcast. She's like, we can't necessarily verify this. This might be speculation or like we know this is real. Like this is a thing that happened in that. So yeah that's very helpful that somebody did a lot of research for me.
Evolution of Women's Rights
00:05:30
Speaker
In another podcast. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, um if it seems like I'm being the pooper who is always trying to push back on everything. No, not at all. um My mind works. Or to figure out what the motivation is. Absolutely.
00:05:43
Speaker
yeah. yeah It's definitely, absolutely. I don't think it's ever pushing back. It's a conversation. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot to converse about. And there's a purpose to every story, even today.
00:05:55
Speaker
Oh, for sure. There's a purpose for how stories are delivered and heard. And how they evolve time. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I'll let you go ahead and get started, though. All right.
00:06:07
Speaker
um I will say, as I said a couple times, this is in Italy. There are a lot of Italian names, and I'm very sorry in advance. Yes. I don't think we have a lick of Italian in us.
00:06:19
Speaker
No, no, I certainly don't. Although they- No, my dad's side was my- I am Irish and English on my dad's side. So I got nothing, no Italian.
00:06:32
Speaker
Yeah, no. Okay, we are going to seventeenth century- Very Catholic Renaissance Italy. We have to start with the context of marriage in Europe at the time.
00:06:43
Speaker
Italy was very patriarchal society and very Catholic. In fact, Italy didn't legalize divorce until 1970.
00:06:53
Speaker
And Spain didn't until 1981. And Ireland didn't legalize divorce until 1996. Yeah, that's pretty crazy to look at Yeah. Men could often divorce their wives, but it was not the other way around.
00:07:06
Speaker
So what we say often, though, like in the 17th century, I mean, they could divorce their wives, but like it wasn't a common practice, right? Like, I mean, back in the day, I feel like the divorce court wasn't right.
00:07:17
Speaker
I think you just sort of wait it out and someone will die. Yeah, that's probably right.
00:07:25
Speaker
Yeah. It's easier than hiring lawyers. Yeah. And I could see some old timey men being like, I'm just going to hang out. Unless, unless the man meets somebody younger who could maybe have children and.
00:07:39
Speaker
And that would be grounds for a man divorcing a wife. Sure. But also, he could just go ahead and do that. Get away with it back in those days. The man could do what he wanted.
00:07:49
Speaker
he could have i Well, the hard thing is, I do think that it became publicly known that a man ah had an affair while married, because they're so Catholic.
00:08:00
Speaker
That's actually a pretty big deal. Adultery is a big deal. Oh, okay. But kept under wraps. Okay. If nobody publicly knows, then whatever. Or if you're like a king. Right. and So a wife's humanity was completely under the husband. A wife was property, children were property, and men could decide what to be done with their property.
00:08:21
Speaker
So in medieval England, there's a system known as coverture. And this basically summarized what the feeling in Europe was. A wife's legal identity is enveloped by her husband's.
00:08:33
Speaker
Unmarried women could own property, but a married woman could not if a Woman gets married and owned property. The property would immediately be in her husband's name.
00:08:44
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So the curvature, had to look that up. I just need like, so i mean the actual definition is the legend, the ah legal status of a married woman considered to be under her husband's protection and authority.
00:08:57
Speaker
I mean, which isn't completely gone even to today. I mean, you know what I'm saying? As construct of society. No. And still in like a lot of other cultures, like it literally is still, you know, in under Taliban authority. It's still very active.
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I would argue there's a push to return to that for some. think it's a cycle. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, okay, so a woman could own property, but then, yeah. And again, like, kind of still what happens, say not not necessarily just a woman, I mean, but things become maritable proper marital property. Marital property, yeah.
00:09:34
Speaker
um But in this, it if if a man owned property and got married, it wouldn't be Ah, gotcha, gotcha. Okay. So it's not necessarily marital property as much as husbandal property.
00:09:46
Speaker
I wonder if there's prenups back then. I don't think they needed them. Oh, that's true. Right. The men certainly didn't. The woman doesn't get any woman's property, right? She doesn't have any rights anyway.
00:09:58
Speaker
All right. Good point. So life at the time for an unmarried woman was difficult, but for many women, there weren't a lot of benefits to get married. It wouldn't make their life better for some women necessarily.
00:10:11
Speaker
And often the women would marry because that was what you do. That's what society tells you to do. Your family might say, you have to marry this person. You know, that's just what happened. Right. I mean, there's still... are like But like earning a living on on on her own back in this day and time would be virtually and impossible. so Especially, I guess, for a woman who is in the lower socioeconomic...
00:10:36
Speaker
I mean, that i i mean the but I feel like the benefit was some security and some income. Of course, having a family. But um but I do feel like it would be... I think it was harder, right? Like, i a woman would have a very hard time surviving society at that point. Or feeding herself, you know? Oh, yeah.
00:10:55
Speaker
oh Yeah. yeah And I don't know... Truly, I don't know how much... If a woman marries not-so-great man... that's not an improvement either. And that's like, that's, and then, and then there's the element of, well, now you're trapped.
00:11:10
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. And so it's like a rock versus a hard place. What's the, yeah right. What's the better of two weasels? Yeah. Yeah. No. So at the time, if English law does anything at the world, in medieval England, the 17th century, the rest of the world follows.
00:11:25
Speaker
And in fact, some of these laws still linger in some of the U.S. laws today. Louisiana got rid of coverture 1979 in in 1980 in in the us and in nineteen eighty it was ruled federally unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. yeah Yeah, when I saw this, it did make me think though that you can still marry your first cousin 18 states.
00:11:48
Speaker
Sure can. A lot of times it's taken out of the laws. Significant they they significant like lag behind the societal processes.
00:11:59
Speaker
And the reason I brought that up is because I thought for sure Louisiana would have been one of those 18. Actually is not. Wow. Good for them. Go Louisiana. They took some strides.
00:12:09
Speaker
Yeah. The Napoleonic Code spread through Europe, making wives' property. French women weren't allowed to work outside of the home legally until 1965. My mother was five years old when French women could work outside of the home. They were home learning to make that French bread. That's why it's so good. That's why it's so good.
00:12:30
Speaker
Switzerland enacted marriage equality in 1988 with a very narrow approval vote. And to be clear on that one, that surprised me because I do find them to be, ah think of them as a progressive straight. when we When it says marriage equality, we're not talking same sex marriage.
00:12:49
Speaker
No, we're talking women have the same right. A wife has the same rights in marriage as a husband. Just wanted to to to clarify that. Yeah. In one way, they would have been yeah very ah ahead of the curve and one way very behind.
00:13:01
Speaker
Right, right. And finally, women could be denied opening a credit card account with their husband without their husband's permission in the U.S. until the Equal Credit Opportunity Act was enacted in 1974.
00:13:12
Speaker
That one didn't surprise me. No. It upset. It's upsetting, but didn't surprise me. I'm not saying I agree with that,
Role of Poison in Society
00:13:22
Speaker
but wasn't surprising. Like, come on.
00:13:24
Speaker
And all of these rules and laws didn't matter the social level of a woman. A wealthy aristocratic woman would have the same marital rights as lower class woman. The aristocratic woman would have probably a bit, well, definitely more flexibility with having resources to make their life easier.
00:13:42
Speaker
no matter how kind of rigid and and locked it was, they'd have the financial resources to probably be more comfortable. So on paper, it doesn't matter the social level, but in practice, as always, they always say money doesn't buy happiness, but it sure does buy comfort year yeah and stability.
00:13:59
Speaker
so A lot of this came from a book that was published in the 15th century called Rules for Married Life. This book was sold all over Europe. It was a huge bestseller.
00:14:10
Speaker
And it advised husbands to beat a wife if she enjoys looking out the window forlornly. So I know the point here is the beating the wife, but all I could think about when I read that was like, oh, the old silent treatment was happening even back then.
00:14:25
Speaker
Oh, that's so funny. I wasn't even thinking about that at all. I was thinking, so I have this sweater that it's like my my old lady cardigan. And my husband always says like, I look like I should like be sadly looking out the window in the rain, like wrap the sweater on me and just take a breath in looking at.
00:14:42
Speaker
Oh God. No, I'm thinking more like, I am so irritated. You know, my husband's, you all right. I'm fine. See, I know. I was just like, teach to me, that was that that this was the old timey version. Yeah. Right.
00:14:55
Speaker
I'm fine. Nope. I just thought she was looking out the window the wrong way and he's upset by it. I'm just going to beat you. Yeah. Um, so I, Using a quote from cool people who did cool stuff, the host Margaret said, quote, women solved the problem of marriage with poison. And i'm going to be honest, kind of surprised it's not still used more often. Listen, I think it probably is.
00:15:20
Speaker
All right. Medieval Italy had a reputation of being obsessed with poison. I love that sentence. I feel like it's a mashup of just a bunch of words.
00:15:31
Speaker
It just makes me laugh when I typed it. That is so funny. But there was a bit of a societal structure of using poisons in different ways. There were factories that created poison. Poisons and antidotes were tested on prisoners and animals.
00:15:45
Speaker
And perfumers had side hustles as poison makers. was just thinking, so like, I'm a pharmacist or was a pharmacist. And i was like, oh, I could have been one. That could have totally been my side hustle. Back in the day, i would have been so much more profitable than being fledgling YouTuber.
00:16:02
Speaker
I mean, a fledgling podcaster. Uh, underground arsenic. You could have, you could have killed it. I seriously think I could have been good at it. You could have been in the book of lady poisoners.
00:16:13
Speaker
Oh my God, I could. Um, well at the time the new poison on the scene was arsenic. Side note, I so badly want to know if I'm genetically the person who can, what is it? Smell arsenic.
00:16:27
Speaker
I want to know so bad if I am. I, ah cilantro tastes like soap to me. I have that gene. And I really want to know if I can smell. It's like, what is it? Burnt almonds? I think it's supposed to smell. Yeah. Yeah. So be generally speaking, odorless, right? To most people. Yeah.
00:16:42
Speaker
But there's a genetic mutation or something, or or there's a gene abnormality that some people can smell it. And I've always wanted to know, but there's not a good way of finding out. Well, I'll have to say, so this, so I went on my little um wormhole on this one.
00:16:58
Speaker
obviously into arsenic or you know, actually I should say for being a pharmacist, i really didn't know that much about arsenic other than, you know, the general, like it's poisonous. Yeah. um So I did look into it a little bit. Got to listen to couple of my facts here.
00:17:10
Speaker
um So I, did so in 1250 AD was the first time that arsenic was isolated as an element that don't really know it was an element at that point, but it was the first time it was isolated, which always find interesting. Like where, I mean, because then I'm like, where does, where is arsenic? And it's in the soil and water. and like, well, still to this day I'm like, I don't understand how you know to go try to start like. Right. Right.
00:17:37
Speaker
And what kind of, yeah, I'm, so I just did a short, um I don't think we've released it yet on the YouTube channel, but it is about the creation of the microwave. And that's another urban legendy one, but it's like, it was an accident.
00:17:50
Speaker
The guy who invented it had, well, this, and this is, I say this in the short too. It's like, there's no firsthand evidence of it, but it's a good story. um He was like doing something with tubes or and sciencey things that I can't remember. And the ah chocolate bar in his pocket melted when he like started something.
00:18:06
Speaker
ah And so it's like the way people can make like just weird and not even a mistake, but just like a weird accident happened. They're like, oh, this is a thing that's useful to humanity.
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think as we get into this, I think that there's elements of that. Yeah. Two things coming together and and then. being able to think about them in a different way. and Yeah. But, um so, but as far back to arsenic, so um the toxicity and harmful effects of, ah of arsenic were, were known long before that they were documented in the fourth century. Oh, wow. you see By physicians like,
00:18:47
Speaker
Hippocrates. Oh. Which is, so then this is what I'm thinking. This this isnt this amazes me, okay? Especially when you think, okay, that like, since, I mean, that seems, okay, very advanced to me for the time.
00:18:59
Speaker
Especially when you consider that like, it's taken, it took like nearly 2,000 years. and year To figure out that bleeding people and leeches. Right. Is not effective.
00:19:10
Speaker
Right. I just feel like there should have been little bit. We talked a little bit about that, too, in the Garfield episode with antiseptic and sanitizing things.
00:19:21
Speaker
And I feel like a lot of that was like people being stubborn about. trying something different. Yeah. it' Yeah. It's like, so I don't know how much of it is just like, no, this is my way and it works. Yeah. I mean, that well, I guess an information sharing too, because I'm like, okay, so if you know there's toxic yeah toxicity to this element, but you don't know that sticking a dirty knife in someone's going but anyways, I just thought that was one. Right. Yeah. That's so interesting. And honestly, I seriously never really knew like,
00:19:53
Speaker
like much about like what a arsenic was originally used for so i after i researched a bit it um its early uses included making stronger bronze um it was used in pigments and in and for gilding metals okay there's your little arsenic all right that i did that was that was actually a point of this that like was missing for me that i was just like how how do we know and then i get into the whole like wormhole of like First, I'm like, okay, so who figured out arsenic was a poison? who fake Who did that? Who did that? And then I get into like that wormhole of, well, who decided that the word for cat is cat?
00:20:29
Speaker
I get that, like grit. And then I'm like, I got stop.
00:20:34
Speaker
Arsenic's the new poison. I have to leave it there. Well, I mean, I don't know. And I always get, it's funny because you like, like, I mean, it was involved, you know, in pigments and pigmentation, which is one of those things that seems like a small deal today. Like we take for granted.
00:20:49
Speaker
pigments but but what a big deal it was back then because it was so rare and only the wealthy aristocrat could afford show them and that's actually i forgot i did know that because there's i've heard a a few stories of green color green had the most arsenic in it so it was also wasn't it a color that really only aristocratic people could afford and then all of these wealthy women started like having injuries and dying and And they would have green wallpaper that they're breathing in arsenic.
00:21:19
Speaker
that's Exactly. Yeah, it did. um There was a couple of specific colors of green that it was tied to. And yeah, and actually, like like you said, wallpaper, they used it in um in wallpaper. and And yes, there was a lot of toxicity from people like putting up that wallpaper, living on that wallpaper that they didn't really quite know the connection at that point. But that's what it was.
00:21:42
Speaker
And now I'm feeling kind of kind of silly because the book I read was green. And I was like, that's just a pretty book. Like, oh. Oh, that witty.
00:21:54
Speaker
Yeah. I didn't think of that. Because actually, okay if we're going to keep going with this. I also did read it. think it was used in, yeah like in the binding of some books. and So it was like. Yeah. yeah Yeah. It's like the the radium girls, you know, that story that and they were.
00:22:10
Speaker
I do not. Oh, there are these women who worked in watch factories, I believe, and they would use teeny tiny paintbrushes to write the numbers on watch faces.
00:22:22
Speaker
So they would dip their paintbrush and they would or they would paint and then like wash the brush off and then lick the brush to get a point. But the paint they were using had radium. Oh, wow. And so they started having like jaw things happening. Oh, wow. And they got cancer and like, and nobody could figure out what was happening. Very interesting. Yeah.
00:22:42
Speaker
Yeah. Cool. So at the time, different European courts would actually hire Italian poisoners to make a poison to use on someone in their court.
00:22:53
Speaker
I know this is not the point, but again, I find this very cool. Yeah. And I also think like, wouldn't just using mushrooms, poisonous mushrooms be a little easier? Probably. i that i yeah I feel like in Europe, there's like poison mushrooms everywhere. I just feel like it's okay. Right.
00:23:07
Speaker
Listen, if you, so if you sauteed me a mushroom and you're like, eat it, I would just eat it. was going to say, well, I, what do I know? i was ah like in France, they can bring in mushrooms into their pharmacies and their pharmacists can tell them if they're safe to eat or poisonous or not.
00:23:24
Speaker
And I was thinking eat it again. As a pharmacist, like, what if someone walked up to me with some nasty looking mushroom? I'll be like, I have no clue, but that thing's gross. Just don't eat it.
00:23:35
Speaker
Right. I would say if you have a question about it, don't eat it. Let's just let that go. So the monarchies would hire and need poisoners in enemy lands during battles. So they would they would kind of make almost like a partnership with specific poisoners and kind of use them to to poison the opposition and ah land battles. Which is why arsenic became known as the poison of kings.
00:24:00
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And monarchs would even have food testers because of their paranoia about being poisoned. Which I feel was pretty justified. I know, right? They're not wrong. So I will say um that finally in the a test called the Marsh Test was developed or created and that could actually detect arsenic. Oh, wow. 1830s. Yeah. And then it was also used for forensic toxicology.
Poisoners and Historical Figures
00:24:26
Speaker
ah That really surprised me as like, that we we were even thinking in that way quite quite honestly back then. But yeah, I was just thinking, you know, there must have been a lot of unemployed food testers in the 40s.
00:24:39
Speaker
Right. They're like, hey, I this was AI proof. Maybe I can tell the difference between mushrooms. Well, at the time in history, many people believe that science and magic work together.
00:24:51
Speaker
So a lot of the people who are creating the poison were seen almost as being supernatural in some ways. And this, as so many things do in our world, caused a moral panic. Yeah, I mean, understandable one.
00:25:05
Speaker
Yeah, until it gets so out of control that it it's leading to a witch hunt. Yeah, literally. but yeah So poison was also used as a weapon for people who were unable to access a more violent weapon. Which I would argue you it's actually superior to a violent weapon, if you ask me. Agreed.
00:25:24
Speaker
Yeah, agreed. All right, so let's talk about... the possible creators of aqua tofana that we haven't even talked about yet, but we'll get there. The first recorded mention of poison being used in this way as a weapon for people who couldn't afford more violent ones is from Francesca Lassarda,
00:25:45
Speaker
sixteen thirty s three by francesca laardda and Teofania de Adamo. Again, I'm sorry. So the aqua tofana poison was possibly invented by Teofania, which tofana, Teofania, it would be named after her.
00:26:03
Speaker
We don't know too much about this, but we know that these two were executed for poisonings. However, a woman named Julia Tofana, who is possibly Teofana's daughter.
00:26:15
Speaker
We don't know for sure, but there's some strong link. And, oh, this one's hard. Gironomia Spana were associated with Teofana.
00:26:26
Speaker
Gironomia ah with could have possibly been the granddaughter. Yeah, so this whole name thing does get confusing. me Yeah. So let me let me also say that's that's a good place to bring it up. The names are confusing.
00:26:39
Speaker
A lot of the names sound alike and there are different spellings. There's different historical records of of a lot of these names. And I think that also, as we kind of talked about, lends itself to the element of storytelling generationally, what becomes urban legend, what is fact. And yeah, it makes it really difficult to to find supporting evidence when a name is wrong.
00:27:03
Speaker
Yeah. But it does, it makes it relevant for a longer period of time, like through the generations, I think. Right. I suppose. So after the execution of Francesca and Teofania, Julia and Geronima moved to Rome together and they continued manufacturing and distributing Aquatofana. Okay. So let's, hold on. Let's pause there for a second.
00:27:28
Speaker
So we talk about them inventing it, they didn't invent it. invent arsenic right no they invented this specific kind of poison do they know at this point that it is arsenic that i don't know i believe yes yes they did i'm sorry flipping through my notes quick they did know that it was arsenic because it is possible that these women could have been selling straight arsenic instead of this concoction that was created.
00:28:00
Speaker
so so um I'm to put my money on that. but But I think it is important to know right that arsenic was very commonly used in cosmetics, which we'll see ties to. yeah So to me, is like did they were they creating a concoction to kill people or did they discover...
00:28:18
Speaker
that these elements ah of cosmetics that they were have or working with killed people and kind of put that put that together. and Right. Right. So let's talk a little bit about the mysticism and and the the magical side of it in Italy at the time, especially Palmeiro, Italy, which is where we're primarily going to be. The criminal underworld at the time wasn't what we necessarily think of it as we do now.
00:28:43
Speaker
Then the criminal underworld was magical practitioners. So it's basically magicians who were often selling snake oil cures for things. But people who couldn't afford doctors would go to magicians on the street. and Let's be honest, that might have been just as effective.
00:28:59
Speaker
ah Maybe safer? Sure. I mean, there are... Yeah. I mean, there are, what are the, i I just tried something. I've got like a little wart on my toe and I was, and I tried all the over the counter things. And then I was like, oh, bee venom is supposed to work. And so I got a thing of bee venom from Amazon that I'm putting on this thing.
00:29:19
Speaker
Is it working? And it's working really well. You'll have to report back to us on that. Right. I know. ah I know that was gross, but that I feel like that's kind of the thing is like, I did all the things I was supposed to. It didn't work. So I'm going to try something weird.
00:29:31
Speaker
Yeah. And then at one point, I mean, something like that, that can just sort of go away on its own. You're like, got it. Figured it out. I did it. Nailed it. So they weren't necessarily always called magicians. They were considered witches or sorcerers or even priests who were living double lives, who led black masses priests.
00:29:53
Speaker
in terms of society went evil. But a lot of priests made a lot of money selling these things or or even pretending to be magicians, basically, or sorcerers or something or having, you know, priests are already considered as having a higher plane of existence because they're closer to God and they can speak, they can do supernatural things. In Catholicism, a priest is a conduit to God.
00:30:16
Speaker
And so yeah, maybe they can also do black magic things. Maybe that makes a lot of sense or... They need a side hustle too. Right? Don't we all? So basically these people, these magicians would sell whatever people who were ailing wanted.
00:30:31
Speaker
People would go from anything from health issues to even just simple fortune telling. So that's kind of that. It's important that to know that royalty also leaned into this too. But royalty was more leaning into alchemy.
00:30:43
Speaker
Yeah, wasn't that like, were they trying to turn metals into gold? Was that... Yep, exactly right. Alchemists often sold the idea of being able to make base metals into gold, which would cure diseases and allow people to live forever.
00:30:57
Speaker
And make them rich, I would think. Right, which is why royalty would want it. yeah Actually, kind of funny. We talked about ah you know royalty wanting to live forever. just what what It was left last month that um the leader of the of China and North Korea, like there was an open mic and they were talking about how to make one mortal.
00:31:23
Speaker
Yeah. So this is something that still persists to this day. Yeah. And you know, you love to hear it. Just, yeah. We want everybody who's ah rich and morally bankrupt to be able to get that technology.
00:31:40
Speaker
So for Francesca and Teofania, they're great. aspirations for women was to make them widows. And they were actually, i know it before I'd said that they had been executed for poisoning, but the poison poisoning that they were both executed for was murdering their husbands.
00:31:57
Speaker
And they were seen as such terrifying women. And they wanted to make, they kind of wanted to use their deaths as a message to other people. Like don't engage in this witchcraft, stay a good wife. Tofania was hanged, drawn and quartered.
00:32:13
Speaker
Or sewn up alive in a canvas sack and thrown from a bishop's palace in front of people.
Julia Tofana and Aquatofana's Impact
00:32:19
Speaker
We're not positive how she died, but all of them were public. All of the possibilities were public. Like, she definitely was publicly executed in some bizarre way.
00:32:29
Speaker
Like, ah these public executions were, like, I guess the action movies of the time. And so much so that they, like... keep they they they You know, person only has to be killed once, but they like keep doing all these different versions, means of of killing them just to like draw like to draw the audience out, I feel.
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And what better way did to scare people into compliance than showing them a horrible way that they will be executed if they step out of line? Oh, yeah.
00:32:59
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm getting a very Salem witch trial vibe here. Absolutely. All right, let's go into the folk hero of our story, Julia Tofana. She was probably born in Palermo, Italy, which is where we are right now.
00:33:14
Speaker
Speculation that she took her mother's first name as her last name because speculated it's Tofana's daughter. To be clear, we are not personally and Palermo, Italy. Oh, no, where our scene is.
00:33:26
Speaker
I wish we were.
00:33:30
Speaker
It was a common practice for women to take their mother's first name and use it as their last name. So there's no known surviving images of Julia, which is interesting. However, from the 1700s, I don't know how many surviving images of anybody who wasn't royalty. Yeah, I mean, I don't think, yeah, that seems kind of common.
00:33:52
Speaker
Yeah. I do, side note, like the name, the spelling of Julia. Yeah. but is it it's a j It's the Italian way. It's G-I-U-L-I-A.
00:34:04
Speaker
i think it's cool. do I really do. So Julia, a single woman, opened a store in Naples that so sold cosmetics and perfumes. She had learned how to make her own concoctions from just like hanging out at Apothecary's.
00:34:16
Speaker
And she later moved her business to Rome. it It got big. She could expand. And she was very well known amongst women. Because how many men are going to the cosmetic store? so ah So what I'm seeing here, right, like is probably. So this woman has her concoctions to make cosmetics. Then she hangs out with the old.
00:34:37
Speaker
apothecaries if I flirt on a little bit and such but and I mean I feel like at that point is where it's that connection that's made the connection between what I'm doing here is also the same ingredient that over here is killing people and I feel like that is the light bulb moment for her when she figures out wait a minute I can I can use I can use this to my advantage and yeah absolutely it seems like she was a very savvy businesswoman who knew how to make connections yep Yeah.
00:35:06
Speaker
So let's talk about what she's making called Aquatofana or Water of Palermo. And this, it just appeared to be a normal cosmetic or a holy oil, which was something that was sold in Italy via the Catholic, um different Catholic practices of anointing oils.
00:35:27
Speaker
We know the active ingredients of Aquatofana, but we don't know how they were blended. We don't know like Two teaspoons of arsenic and one teaspoon of Snapdragon. We don't know that.
00:35:39
Speaker
So we know that the concoction was arsenic, lead, and arsenic. Probably Belladonna. So, and those are all, I mean, they would, those are all fairly common ingredients in cosmetics. Yeah.
00:35:52
Speaker
Of the day. So, so we say it like, yeah I mean, it very well could have also been a cosmetic product. Right. Right. Cause in fact, Belladonna juice, berry juice would be dropped into the eyes because dilated pupils were seen as attractive. Which I never thought about, but the yeah, that is so interesting. Yeah. And then, yeah. i Then after that, it was like, that's, um,
00:36:13
Speaker
Part of why they say like dim lighting is more flattering to eye stylating. Oh, interesting. So there's a bunch of other ingredients that are possible.
00:36:26
Speaker
Mercuric chloride, which was a treatment for venereal disease at the time. And this is where we get into some of the some of the more witchy elements that could have been in it. Toad Flax, Antinomy, Spanish Fly, Snapdragon, Pennywort, and my favorite, the Spittle of Madmen.
00:36:49
Speaker
So I just have to think this. The arsenic kills you? What else do we need these other ingredients for? I know. But I could and also understand there's not like a copyright there. Like you can't be like, this is my recipe.
00:37:03
Speaker
little good hype. little good hype out there. And so like, let's to let's put in like, let's tell different people different things we're putting in it. So nobody's gonna mimic it and sell it on their own. Yeah. or yeah Or know which ah active ingredient this. Exactly.
00:37:16
Speaker
But what it comes down to is it was the arsenic on people's. Yeah, right. Probably believe the lead a little bit too. yeah was That was not harming. That was harming. Right. The concoction was colorless and tasteless.
00:37:29
Speaker
So it can be very easily added to water or wine or served with meals. couple ways that it was disguised. And first, primarily disguised as powdered makeup.
00:37:40
Speaker
So it could be stored with other cosmetics. Basically, women could store this in plain sight. It's hidden in plain sight. Most of the husbands don't care about their their wives' cosmetics. You just pop it on there with with all your other powders.
00:37:54
Speaker
The second disguise was hiding it in small vials. um So this is where we're talking about like the holy oil. Like a healing ointment would be seen as a devotional object. I wonder if this is like where you were in society. Like, because I cannot imagine those in the lower socioeconomic ladder at the time had a whole lot of cosmetics.
00:38:13
Speaker
Right. So this would be how they would get it is it's more acceptable as a lower... probably lay as the lower class person to get a a holy oil than a fresh face powder.
00:38:25
Speaker
like more of like Yeah, makes sense. So the healing ointment, when it was sold as a vial, was known as Mana di San Nicola. This is possibly even like a trade name used as a marketing device to divert attention from authorities. and Using the word authorities in 17th century seems a little off. Right? I'm curious about who. who's So in the vials...
00:38:48
Speaker
To make it look like a devotional object, it was sold with pictures of Saint Nicholas on it. So again, it's just something can hide in plain sight. Because wasn't it said to like be squeezed from the bones of... mean, it was something crazy that this oil was squeezed from the bones of Saint Nicholas or something insane like that.
00:39:09
Speaker
Right. right It was something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So... The directions, there were even directions printed on bottles and the cosmetics, but they were like, to make it look more like what it was disguised as. So because the directions were on the bottle that like led to it being a valid cosmetic object or holy oil, it showed that women weren't using it for any other reason than what was on the bottle.
00:39:33
Speaker
so So this is, okay, so this is of those parts where it makes you think. Okay, so we're in the 17th century. These labels could not have been... No, they were like handwritten, right?
00:39:45
Speaker
So then it brings it back to the radium ladies. Yeah. Yeah. So as they're doing this, they're, you know, writing these directions.
Aquatofana Myths and Legacy
00:39:53
Speaker
I'm trying to think of like what the directions of a holy ointment would be.
00:39:59
Speaker
Is it like the Neosporin bottle of like, take a small amount and put it on your wound? I was like, yeah was trying to do it in like the Latin way, like prescriptions are actually true.
00:40:11
Speaker
I'm an over-the-counter gal. Plus two drops. An affected area. So the aqua tofana was very slow acting and this was to make symptoms look like natural causes. So it was it it was i yeah the first extended release formulation of its day?
00:40:27
Speaker
Exactly. Arsenic XR. And the benefit of this is men would and the benefit of this is men would You know, life didn't last as long for people at that time. So if if people are starting to have these ailments, men would often feel like just to be safe, they need to put their affairs in order. Now, to be clear, it was not actually like, i mean, like arsenic poisoning can happen over a period of time.
00:40:57
Speaker
please It's like, yeah basically it comes down to like, how much you're giving them. Basically, i mean, you could take a bound in one shot, no problem. Or, you know, if you're slowly right adding it, um or I mean, or if it's naturally occurring in groundwater or something, the the damage is being done over time.
00:41:14
Speaker
But yeah, I feel like they simplify this a little too much with like, first drop does that, second drop. I'm like, I mean, yeah. Yeah. Take that with grain of salt. Yeah. Also, people were dying and sick all over the place. so Well, that's the thing too, right? Like if it looks like a progressive disease that everybody else has. There are lot of it. Yeah. I feel like it would be pretty easy Well, and the other benefit of it appearing to be natural and slower was that men would have the chance to speak to their priests for confession and repenting. Remember, we're in a very Catholic country.
00:41:49
Speaker
and wives would often feel less guilty because their husband had the opportunity to repent and would be in heaven. I get, I mean, I get that. Like, you know, good on the wives, really. Yeah, exactly. A lot of planning in that. And you know what?
00:42:03
Speaker
He doesn't need to be around me. He'll be in heaven though. It's all right. Yeah, he's got, she has his best interests at heart. Exactly. So rumor or speculation said that men appeared to die of natural causes with only four drops over the period of months.
00:42:20
Speaker
Is interesting?
00:42:22
Speaker
Yes. Symptoms were obviously similar to arsenic poisoning, if you could believe it. Although I guess arsenic poisoning symptoms are kind of like ill descript to some way. I think basically you just start feeling like crap and throwing up.
00:42:36
Speaker
And your body decreased. Exactly. It started with cold-like symptoms with the first the first two doses, the first two drops. By the third dose, the victim would have vomiting, diarrhea, dehydration, burning sensation, and digestive system.
00:42:53
Speaker
And by the fourth dose was death. It was also called a, quote, gentle poison, as there wasn't as much vomiting as other poisons. Yeah.
00:43:05
Speaker
Which then makes me think, like, God, food poisoning had... Basically, food poisoning had it happen a lot. Everyone constantly had food poisoning.
00:43:16
Speaker
You vomit pretty harshly even with that. Yeah. But this would, because it didn't look like a traditional poison, this was less suspicious. It was even more like, okay, he's just sick.
00:43:27
Speaker
But as I said, the victims would prepare for death because it was a slow moving ah degeneration of their health. So as I said, they would write their wills. They would see their priests. They would get everything in order and the wives would be taken care of.
00:43:40
Speaker
So the magical part of the Aquatofana was that it was thought to defy autopsy. So even way back in old timey times, they were doing autopsies.
00:43:51
Speaker
Which that, I mean, that surprised me. Because first of all, they didn't even know that much to begin with. So I'm like, I'm not sure what they're looking at, looking forward to much. Right, right. I know.
00:44:02
Speaker
I was curious about that. i I do want to look into more like what a 17th century or even like early 19th century autopsy looked like. feels like would be more, maybe more of a hobby. Yeah.
00:44:13
Speaker
ah right But I will say that then they did say, you know, when that um when that test was developed, that they did use it for forensic toxicology and they could even exhume bodies and go back and test them.
00:44:28
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So we know that it's the one drop over months thing obviously wasn't real. But this story was a way to make men way more afraid that this would happen and of their wives doing it. That just one drop of this and you'll...
00:44:44
Speaker
You'll just expire. so better watch what you're doing. So we think about that, too, again, with the urban legend. a ha And, um you know, who benefits and and creating that fear and giving women the power.
00:44:56
Speaker
Right. yeah Or perceived power, I should say. Right. So it was also kind of considered the ability to defy autopsy because it was a better poison, whatever they were doing, and even if it is just arsenic, they were like they were figuring out a way to make it almost more, and don't even want to say potent because it was slow acting, but but more efficient, I think, in like both how it was delivered and how it moved from person to person being sold.
00:45:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there was like, ah it was just like a new method of delivery. And can't wait to remember, nobody realized, I mean, your general person out there had no idea arsenic was in these products or that that is what could be killing you. I mean, you couldn't just, yeah no Google search searches that back then. so right right So it was a mystery basically. or Yeah. it too It was harder to detect damage to the organs with this.
00:45:51
Speaker
Yeah. But it's not perfect, of course. And then once things started happening, this is when the moral panic of, of the concept of women poisoning their husband, turned into this like giant misogynistic myth of like linking the idea of like poisoning with murder or this like harlot evil scheming woman poisoning her husband's soul.
00:46:14
Speaker
So it again turns into this bigger thing and kind of a consequence of it is if husbands did die, now the blame is put on the wife no matter what.
Contemporary Gender Dynamics and Conclusion
00:46:23
Speaker
So who's like, yeah, so this urban legend, like who is, who is the hero or who is it benefiting, you know, because you can see it now, like yeah it goes both ways, right? So there's perception of power from the women, but then it also puts them in a position where there's reason for false accusations.
00:46:39
Speaker
Yeah. And they got to defend themselves now. Yeah. Instead of just being a widow. Yeah. So. There was also rumors that the antidote was simply vinegar and lemon juice. This always kills me because it's not the antidote.
00:46:54
Speaker
How many times do you have to try it before you realize... That's not the antidote. Right. It didn't work. And I imagine they're like, well, the poison went too far. We didn't catch it early enough.
00:47:04
Speaker
If only we had caught it between doses, drops two and three. so i do think we should end there. We're at about an hour. i truly thought this would be one episode. Well, it is till I start talking. Well, and that's the point.
00:47:18
Speaker
And I should consider that when I'm writing a script. there that It's a conversation. Yeah.
00:47:24
Speaker
So let's wrap it up there. And next week, we will continue talking about kind of the business structure of Aqua Tofana. And then what happened to Julia and um some of the other women involved in basically this poisoner's ring.
00:47:41
Speaker
Awesome. This is fun. Great topic. I'm glad you chose it Yeah, and I thought we needed a bit. Not that it's lighter. There's still lots of murder. But I don't know. Older ones, ah especially after doing like Ruby and Jodi and Micah and it's it's right now.
00:47:56
Speaker
Some of these older ones have been like, okay, it's so far removed that it's a little a little lighter. will say though... That if you read my notes, and maybe by the time we finish, I did talk about there were connections in a way. Oh, there are. Yeah, Ruby and Jodi and to Laurie Val. I mean, there's some of the same connections that we sort of see. And so I think it is interesting to tie it back that way too. And to see, again, how these urban legends are passed through generations. And then their topics are...
00:48:33
Speaker
That keep coming up again. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Society has always viewed women in a certain way.
00:48:42
Speaker
All right. We're making progress. all right. Let's wrap up there. We will talk to you guys next week. Goodbye.