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EPISODE 16 - JEROD MAYO FIRED. NEW HEAD COACH??
167 Plays4 months ago
The Savage Boston podcast debates!
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Transcript
Introduction to Rapid Changes and Early Season End
00:00:01
Savage Boston
All right, what's up everybody? Welcome back to the Savage Boston podcast. We are back. It is January 8th, 2025. I like to say the date just because I feel like the news and everything is changing so quickly now, every day online. A lot of leaks, a lot of new head coaching changes. and and and kind of reports coming out, so I just want to make sure everyone's clear on the date. um You know, we did like a mid-season thing and now an end of season just because everyone's got pretty busy lives. um Obviously, I want to get more consistent at some point, but this has been a big week, really big week, and the last, you know, big weekend. This was obviously the week that the Patriots ended their season, and within about 50 minutes of the season end, Jarod Mayo was fired.
Surprise and Reactions to Mayo's Firing
00:00:53
Savage Boston
Um, I did like a spaces on Twitter pretty soon after we had a lot of people tune in because everybody's really fired up. It just over, over-armingly surprised at the speed of which Mayo got fired. I kind of want to just start there and we can talk about everything, but like I was in shock how fast that news dropped.
00:01:15
Savage Boston
Uh, it was, it was, I was eating dinner and my in-laws were literally having a sit down. My phone's in the other room was like, I got to take a break. And after the game, and then all of a sudden I get all the the text messages, right? And then everyone's like, you know, look at Twitter, look at Twitter, look, pick up your phone. And I'm like, Oh my God. Like what? And then obviously I see the news news dropped. So, um,
00:01:37
Savage Boston
You know, I guess, you know, my initial thoughts, obviously, I think Kraft must have been beside himself that they won that football game just absolutely beside himself as I was, as most of the fan base was, thinking it was kind of a disgrace that they threw that game. um And by throw it, I mean, they won the game. And I think it I think it was a disgrace. So I'll start there. Snooty, why don't you kind of lead off and give me your thoughts on just the initial end of the season and may I was firing?
Analyzing the Timing and Pre-plan of Mayo's Dismissal
00:02:05
Snooty
So, I mean, I was obviously shocked how quickly it happened. Um, I figured they would give him till the next day, I guess, to fire him. I don't really see where there's an advantage to firing him that day. So, you know, I don't know why they did it. Um, I don't think the outcome of the game had anything to do with it. Um, I mean, they were clearly going to fire him. You don't have that statement ready and you don't fire someone, you know, like an hour after the game, uh, you know, without having your mind up mind made up before that.
00:02:35
Snooty
I don't think the I mean look I think everybody would have preferred to to have lost that game for a multitude of reasons, but They didn't I don't think that it had any real impact on it um He just may have just never got better um Going into the year.
00:02:50
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:02:50
Snooty
I kind of figured that You know you lose Belichick. I kind of figured the offense couldn't get worse um Just because it was like historically bad and Uh, the previous year, but I kind of figured if the defense was going to get worse, it would be incrementally or gradually over the next like two or three seasons as kind of people started to leave or, you know, assistance kind of left and you kind of got.
00:03:15
Snooty
You know, Mayo kind of made it his own or Covington kind of made it his own. I didn't expect them to completely fall off a fucking cliff in the second half of the year. Um, I know injuries played part of that, but it's just inexcusable. Um, the, the level of defense that they played. So Mayo, I get it. He was putting a bad spot, but he's not ready. He's just not ready. And maybe he'll never be ready, but and maybe he'll be a good coach at some point, but.
00:03:42
Snooty
He's in over his head at this point and I think it's best for everybody. I also kind of don't really feel bad for him because, and this is a point I don't think anybody's really
Career Trajectory and Financial Aspects of Mayo
00:03:50
Snooty
brought up. Let's say they hired Rabel last year.
00:03:52
Snooty
Mayo probably doesn't stick around, right?
00:03:56
Savage Boston
Takes a job elsewhere, yeah.
00:03:57
Snooty
He takes a job elsewhere. Is he going to get a head coach or head coach money elsewhere? No. So if anything, all right, yeah, he'll probably, he may never be a head coach again because of this. Sure. But he also got paid for three years for, or whatever it's going to be for, you know, head coach money.
00:04:13
Savage Boston
Well, really quick before I throw it to Brett, it's I agree with what you're saying. It's not like Mae was some like poor little boy who stumbled into this. She's like, Oh my God, i I can't believe I'm here. I'm so lucky. And then like the rug pull like, no, like he,
00:04:28
Savage Boston
Worked the scenes behind Bill, orchestrated this scenario, became his successor, got a multi-million dollar contract, and then did a pretty shitty job. And I don't want to root for him to get fired necessarily. At the end there, I was like, he's got to go. It wasn't like, I need you to get fired. It was more like, this doesn't work.
00:04:48
Savage Boston
And he's not doing a good job. And the thing is a total collapse. And it's like, I get the roster sucks. I understand that. But you need to see more. And the fact that everyone kept coming out and saying, oh, remember Dan Campbell? Remember, dan it's going to be Dan Campbell. Do Dan Campbell's one out of 100? Not everyone turns into Dan Campbell. You can't just call everyone Dan Campbell. it ridiculous I was getting really pissed at that. But all right, Brad, authority you what do you. What did you think on kind of end of season?
00:05:15
Bret
Well, I mean, I think the timing obviously was shocking with it being so quick, but the fact that he was fired, I'm... Everyone just knew it was coming. It was really, really evident in the final month. You could just see all of the shift in reporting and talk, both local and national. So it it was coming, very evident.
Leadership Challenges and Readiness for Head Coach Role
00:05:37
Bret
um I think timing, obviously unique, but at the end of the day, like there's never a good time, quote, unquote, to fire someone. It's just going to happen. It's going to happen. so
00:05:48
Bret
I'm glad that it's sooner rather than later because I know that was some concerns there that that Kraft would Continue to kind of play the way he's been doing it where he'd straddle between Trying to play it out so like he doesn't look like a bad guy in the situation so I do give him credit there for owning it making the firing and then ah Moving forward now we'll talk a little bit about how he's moving forward i'm sure soon but regarding mayo's firing i think we all saw it coming it was evident and now obviously that he's been fired we're getting more and more reporting about sort of the.
00:06:25
Bret
you know issues that they were having off the field and sort of what was going on in the walker room and on travel trips and just like clearly the guy was way in over his head and It was very evident and you kind of look back on it and you know You saw it all in like in the making and it was just something that was just going to happen And yeah, I agree with snooty. I I too do not feel bad for Mayo like obviously you don't want to wish for someone to get fired, but like, dude, you had a shot and you got a shot.
00:06:59
Bret
You were probably, other than Jeff Saturday, you were probably the most under qualified head coach in like the history of the league. So the fact that you even had that opportunity, you should feel like
00:07:07
Savage Boston
Yeah.
Debate on Player-Coach Style and Its Effectiveness
00:07:11
Bret
thankful that Kraft gave you that shot because no other organization was going to give you that shot at all.
00:07:17
Bret
And your best-case scenario, if you didn't stick out as the head coach here, was to potentially be a defensive coordinator. And you don't know what organization, what coach you could have been on, and how that could have worked out.
00:07:29
Bret
So if anything, he should be thankful for the opportunity. And like i don't I don't think there's anything that he should be spiteful towards like how things went down.
00:07:40
Bret
I mean, he deserved to be fired and let go.
00:07:41
Savage Boston
Well, is there, is there a problem with the, um, or at least I should say like, what Mayo tried to do was be the player coach culture guy.
00:07:41
Bret
And I'm good with that.
00:07:52
Savage Boston
Like he wanted to set up the new, you know, I'm the friend, right? I'm a, friend I'm your friend. And, and I think he thinks that's how it's supposed to go as, as a, as a, like kind of a former player, buddy, buddy coach and the opposite of bill, right?
00:08:06
Savage Boston
He just didn't want to be bill. He wanted to be your bud. And the problem like that can work. if you also hold players accountable. You have to do both. You can't just be like, I'm your buddy, and then, and then not discipline players. Especially the Raimond R. Stevenson event to me blew my mind. He told everyone before the game, the the announcers, everyone, were we're benching him, we're benching him, we're benching him. And then he started, and it's like, well, either he just forgot, he literally forgot, or he forgot to tell Van Pelt,
00:08:41
Savage Boston
or he changed his mind. And the reporting today is he changed his mind. And that should be shocking to people kind of feel like, like how, how in that short, he did an interview saying he was going to bench him 20 minutes before the game started. It wouldn't make sense. So something really did go wrong. and And the way he communicated and held players accountable went wrong.
00:09:07
Savage Boston
and And I found that to be very
Inconsistencies in Decision-Making and Team Discipline
00:09:09
Savage Boston
strange. But like as far as the player-coach model, I mean, who else do we have? i mean a lot of like You talk Mike McDaniel, well, that's really not going well at all, discipline-wise. I mean, Sean McVey's a young guy, and he's a bright guy, but they clearly have a great culture and a great team, and they're over-performing. So I don't know, how do you guys feel about the the kind of buddy-buddy coach model?
00:09:32
Snooty
But it's like, it's the same thing as, as like having a hard-ass coach, right? Like you can't be a hard-ass coach and go too hard and too far, right?
00:09:41
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:09:41
Snooty
So like there has to be some semblance of balance, some ability to actually coach or have interpersonal skills and kind of read a situation and have the ability to relate to players to a certain degree.
00:09:52
Snooty
Um, the ideal balance is like, look, I'm a former player. I've been through this. I know what you're going through. So I'm not, a you know, you kind of want to be like, I'm not asking you for stuff that I haven't done or wouldn't be willing to do or at least acknowledge kind of what they're going through but. To your point like you have to have some level of discipline and the the stevenson benching the other part that makes it so confusing is the they were like the ask gibson.
00:10:19
Snooty
And he was like, no, no one talked to me that I was going to start. So it's like, okay. So you never told the guy who was going to start was going to start. He expected Stevenson who had taken the first reps all week to start. And then you just go, Oh yeah, no, actually I forgot. And it's like, so did you really forget or did you guys just completely fuck this whole thing up just
Organizational Inexperience Post-Belichick
00:10:39
Snooty
entirely? Just bungle it. Or were you overruled by van Pelt, which is an even bigger indictment on Mayo?
00:10:47
Snooty
than anything so I mean ah Mayo had to go I don't think there's any one silver bullet to what type of system there has to be um it can be because you can have a hard-ass coach that where it doesn't go well floor is in Miami was an example of that right um but bill was a hard-ass coach who worked here so you know
00:10:48
Savage Boston
Yeah
00:11:14
Snooty
But, ah you know, Patricia was a hard-ass coach and he's, I guess he was kind of an asshole ah in Detroit and that didn't work. So, you know, it it can work both ways. You just have to find the person who can balance it correctly.
00:11:27
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:11:27
Bret
Yeah, the reality is as Mayo clearly didn't have the leadership qualities and he didn't have those because he hadn't had enough of the experience doing it. So he wasn't able to execute what he needed to do as a head coach. He he was never confident or committing and what his decisions were or how he's going to approach it. He obviously.
00:11:46
Bret
Did not communicate well both in the media which is sometimes a good indicator of how he's commuting communicating internally which raises a lot of red flags but the reality is he just wasn't a leader and it's It can come in different fashions, but at the end of the day, that was the lack of his you know ability as a head coach to be able to do it. And that's you know why he is ultimately out the door because he just wasn't ready, he didn't know what he was doing. And then, unfortunately, the guys that were put around him with Covington and AVP
00:12:21
Bret
like they're not tenured guys that have a lot of experience and understand how to do it. He didn't really have anyone to kind of mentor him or help be a consultant or someone to kind of lean on ah that you would normally see with some of the newer coaches. You know, you talk about McVeigh, like his first DC was Wade Phillips, which You know, former head coach, yeah, he flamed out in Dallas, but like a good defensive coordinator.
00:12:45
Bret
And obviously a guy has been around the league for a long time that helped McVeigh get himself situated.
00:12:46
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:12:50
Bret
So ah it's just one of those areas where you look at and say, ah yeah, he didn't have the support. But at the end, I just think he just wasn't
Kraft Family's Role and Need for Organizational Vision
00:13:00
Bret
ready. And I don't care who was around him.
00:13:00
Savage Boston
I'd like to hear.
00:13:02
Bret
I don't think it was going to work out well.
00:13:04
Savage Boston
Well, I want to hear stories back to like the spring again, because, you know, everyone was talking about how they kind of like the crafts immediately were like, what's going on here? They came back in May.
00:13:14
Savage Boston
You know what I mean? They're like something something's weird already. I mean, they'd been used to Bill Belichick, who's an extreme attention to detail and and structured. But they right away were like, we don't like something about this. And I found that interesting. Like, I just want to know those stories again, like,
00:13:29
Savage Boston
you know, pull back the curtain, what really was going on. because Because we got a couple glimpses of those stories in the Giardi piece and ah the one this morning that went big was a Chad Graff piece from The Athletic. um I put a couple things on from that. One of the quotes people got really mad about was Mayo going to Steve Belichick and telling Steve, hey, you can stay here, but you're getting a demotion. And Steve said, well, all right, well, I'll go be the defensive coordinator at Washington.
00:13:57
Savage Boston
And then he promoted Covington. like I thought Steve left. I thought he just left and said, yeah, I'm out. I didn't realize it was after he said he would not be DC. He's not going to call plays. And like how much different is this season if Steve Belichick stays on and calls plays on defense? Maybe they let up a couple less points a game. I have no idea. But you really they really, yeah I don't know. theyre really The coaching staff was so inexperienced. And ah and it it just seemed like a mess.
00:14:26
Savage Boston
so
00:14:27
Snooty
It's an experience all around at every level of the organization outside of ownership, right?
00:14:32
Savage Boston
ah
00:14:32
Snooty
Like it's just, it's horrific in experience. And even if you, well, and then like even, even ownership, like is Jonathan taking more of a leading role instead of Robert?
00:14:35
Savage Boston
go to get like this is the question like how does this
00:14:43
Snooty
So like, I know he's been around and he's seen things. So he's not, you know, traditionally inexperienced, but like, You know, if he, if it's his first time going through some of this stuff, then it's like, you know, now you have any experience throughout the whole fucking organization.
00:14:58
Snooty
It's like, that's just, it's never going to work.
00:14:59
Savage Boston
How do you let it get like this is the question?
00:15:01
Snooty
It's never going to work. You can't have a brand new front office or it's, that's the thing.
00:15:02
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:15:05
Snooty
It's not even a, we'll get into this, but it's not even a brand new front office. but like their first time kind of doing it without Belichick there. And then you have coaches first time doing it without Belichick there. And then you have, you know, maybe an owner who's kind of, you know, flushing out his responsibilities a little bit. Maybe it's his first time doing a lot of this stuff.
00:15:26
Bret
Yeah, I think the big thing that I look at, and this is why I'm glad that people are kind of wising up towards it. Like ultimately, if you ask everyone, Mayo got the firing, we all expected that. But you ask any like true pass fan who's the number one person to blame for this season and and ultimately we're like.
00:15:44
Bret
Pats are at, it's the crafts. And the reality is, is Robert and Jonathan had it like fat and good for like two decades because they had the greatest coach of all time and they had the greatest quarterback of all time. And Belichick slowly took over all of the control. And the reality is, is Belichick as a, you know, head coach slash GM slash like all-knowing football guy,
00:16:10
Bret
like was happy to take on all of that control because he felt like it just allowed him to, you know, make the decision that he thought was best for the football team and and didn't really have much resistance. And then from Kraft's perspective, he was like, great, I can get this winning formula.
00:16:27
Bret
and spend less money than everyone else in the league. So he just allowed it to happen and didn't like take the time to realize like, like, wait a second. Some of these other teams are doing more investment in their scouting department and like there's facilities and like they actually like what the players rated on like the different, ah you know, amenities that the Patriots offer compared to other teams like There was no one in Kraft's ear, nor did Kraft take the time to realize that like his organization was really like turning to shit and and like just not being on top of it.
00:16:58
Savage Boston
Well, I'll give Kraft, give Kraft credit for this though, like here's here's a little credit. Okay, because everyone obviously he deserves a tremendous amount of blame, which he all which he did say that like he took it on and I appreciate that he took the blame because he does deserve the blame. But A, he heard some of the noise about the player personnel stuff. I don't think he'd even heard that. Someone brought that to his attention. So he's building that like $80 million dollars new facility. So that is actually a huge thing. I have a ton of amenities. So their scores will go way up in that. That's at least a good thing. um you know I like to hear that he's at least ah listening in some way to the players and trying to improve the organization. But you know as far as like,
00:17:45
Savage Boston
Getting back to where are we going? You know, like where are we heading as an organization? Because obviously, like you were saying, with Crafts, we let this get so out of hand because Bill had all the control.
00:17:53
Bret
in.
00:17:56
Savage Boston
Craft didn't know how to bring it back. And here we are, kind of bottom of the barrel organizationally, where they don't have a lot of front office support. They don't have any vision. Mayo didn't have, apparently, any vision.
00:18:07
Savage Boston
And now we say, like, where are we going? Where are we going now? And obviously, it's beginning clearly, as this is quite a snooty as we argued the other day.
Potential Coach Hires: Vrabel vs. Johnson
00:18:16
Savage Boston
You thought, bring in GM first. And I said, bring in you're going to have to bring in coach first. It looks like they're obviously going coach first, where they're going to basically be deciding between the favorite, Mike Frable, as we all know, and kind of the more risky pick, Ben Johnson. And in my opinion, those are the only two choices in this.
00:18:36
Savage Boston
um I mean, everyone's like, oh, Liam Cohen, he's got the bubble blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but that's even super, super risky. Um, so I think everybody thinks Ray Bowl will be the guy and I think they're probably right. But I'm happy to hear Kraft is at least having a larger coaching search and really doing interviews. Schefter spoke on that today.
00:18:58
Savage Boston
and said that he's going to take his time. He's not just picking Rabel in two seconds. So I'm encouraged by that. I really want him to actually fully vet people and I want him to give Ben Johnson a real look because the modern NFL ah You have a lot of fantastic, youngish head coaches who are tremendous play callers and scheme guys. And that is how the NFL, the modern NFL is trending in a lot of ways. And not all the ways. I mean, not like the Ravens or, you know, the Steelers or like those might be more old school, but even Andy Reid, you know, he's, isn't he calling plays up in KC? You know, like Andy Reid has, you guys correct me if I'm wrong, does Andy Reid call the plays?
00:19:42
Snooty
Yeah.
00:19:43
Bret
Yeah.
00:19:43
Savage Boston
So Andy Reed's done that forever, like he's an excellent, excellent offensive mind. And he has been everywhere he's been. So it's kind of like if you could get that next guy, and yes, I know it's risky and I don't think they're gonna do it, I give it like 90-10, Vrabel Johnson. But just the appeal of the guy, he's gonna stay and be the head coach, call the plays, develop the scheme. In my opinion, that's incredibly appealing.
00:20:08
Snooty
It's not even the scheme or anything like that to me. And I want them to give a lead. I don't think they will. I don't think they are. I think it's it's variable. I think the only way it's going to happen is if Johnson because Johnson's interview is Friday and he can only do virtual because of the you know, the league rules.
00:20:16
Savage Boston
yeah
00:20:25
Snooty
um He would have to absolutely smoke that interview in order to you know for the to give them pause.
00:20:30
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:20:33
Snooty
Otherwise, I expect for Abel to be hired Friday evening, Saturday, sometimes something like that. But the selling point that he has to do, and this is truly the the big piece if it's for for Johnson, is it's less the scheme so much it is as it is the development of the quarterback.
00:20:51
Snooty
If he can be like, look, I will maximize Drake May. I can get him to the highest point of his potential. I can get the turnover issues under control. He's, he's, he just turned 22, right?
00:21:02
Snooty
Like he's like, uh, he's super young.
00:21:03
Savage Boston
Yeah, so young. Yeah.
00:21:05
Snooty
He's, but he's, he's got all these traits, all these attributes that are good.
00:21:06
Savage Boston
I'll take good care.
00:21:09
Snooty
I can get the most out of him. I've, you know, I'm here. And then you realistically, like, even if he were to fail, so to speak, he could still technically do well with May, but not do well with everything.
Comparing Vrabel's Leadership and Johnson's Offensive Genius
00:21:23
Snooty
You know what I mean? So like out of the end of it, there is the potential that you could have a developed franchise quarterback, but you still need a coach to kind of build that, you know, full team infrastructure, that type of thing, or if the front office lets them down or that type of thing.
00:21:40
Snooty
That's the selling point. That's where Johnson can can or should give the crafts pause in terms of just automatically hiring Vrable. Because Vrable needs to find, if he's going to be hired, Vrable needs to find at least two, if not three, offensive coordinators if he's to be successful here.
00:21:58
Snooty
right Because it's what will happen.
00:22:00
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:22:00
Snooty
He'll hire someone just like in Tennessee. He hired Arthur Smith. Arthur Smith did well. Arthur Smith left to go be a head coach in Atlanta. right like And then he had to hire someone else. So he showed that he could do it in Tennessee, but can you do it two or three more times here?
00:22:15
Snooty
And for all the shit that Bill Belichick got, the guy could develop offensive coordinators. He did a few of them and he, you know, I'd be brought in, uh, O'Brien from, I believe outside of the organization, but kind of in somewhat in that tree, he started with Weiss.
00:22:29
Snooty
They built, they developed McDaniel's, um, bed O'Brien. They went back to McDaniel's like for a long time, he could develop offensive personnel.
00:22:38
Savage Boston
Mm hmm.
00:22:38
Snooty
And that was key in order to have him, you know, it obviously helped with Brady, but like. you know, you, you could still develop good offensive coaches to go do that. Um, and that's going to be key. That's the tricky point for, for Vable versus Wisconsin.
00:22:54
Savage Boston
If Rabel comes in and let's say he does get hired, you know, we start you start doing your hypotheticals of who is the OC. he brings in and obviously everyone kind of has this automatic reflex of Josh McDaniel's because everyone's familiar with him but like other people see that he just was linked up with Tommy Reese in Cleveland and and I think those somehow are the two options right now it feels like that I've heard it's McDaniel's or Tommy Reese and Tommy Reese might be that younger offensive mind guy and apparently some glowing reviews for him especially down at Alabama
00:23:28
Savage Boston
but um But that's all risky in itself. It's basically like Kraft I think just wants to hire Vrable so he can be like, it's yours now. It's you, I need you. Like he wants to hire him to believe in him. Like you take over, you're the leader, you're the CEO, I need you to to run this team. Versus Ben Johnson is more of the introvert, but he's like the quiet genius. So what do you want, the risky quiet genius or the dude that used to say, it's yours, you're the new Bill Belichick?
00:23:58
Savage Boston
Who does Kraft want?
00:24:00
Snooty
Well, so...
00:24:00
Bret
Well, i I'm going to say that I think he's going to want Vrable for and a number of reasons. Obviously, the familiarity with the guy, more so than Ben Johnson. He played here. Kraft knew him personally. you know Who knows what kind of relationship he's had or interactions he's had with Ben Johnson, but it's clear that there's a relationship there, which, as we know with Kraft, is important.
00:24:01
Snooty
sorry.
00:24:24
Bret
The other thing is, is obviously you're coming from a rookie head coach that did not work out and ah did not, you know, ultimately help advance your team. And he's going to look at it and say, I want to get a 10 year guy and a guy that knows what he's doing, which is why I think he would lean for a variable. To me, the reason why I think he should lean for a variable is because I think that when it comes to the team right now, the biggest issue I see is just the the culture and the team is completely fractured. And I'm confident that a guy like Vrabel can come in there and fix that because everything you ever hear about the guy, whether it was from his time as a coach in the Titans or as his time as a player, the guy just knows how to lead and command a rung. And he's right. If anyone's like a Dan Campbell type, it's a Mike Vrabel. right and i agree i'm tired of the comparisons but obviously it's hard not to root for a guy like dan campbell i just say when it comes to culture i look at variables being more of a proven guy where is ben johnson i think it's a big unknown the other thing that it comes up with regards to identifying offensive talent.
Coaching Philosophies and Styles: Stability vs. Innovation
00:25:37
Bret
you know, snooty, I know you mentioned Arthur Smith. I mean, he also did have Matt LaFleur as his offensive coordinator in Tennessee. So ultimately, his first two offensive coordinators went on to become head coaches. And you know, Arthur Smith, obviously not a head coach anymore back as an offensive coordinator, but like, his first two picks were pretty damn good. Right. And I think You know, he obviously learned from that and hopefully is able to apply his learnings and able to do it more effectively in his second opportunity. But ah to me, I think Vrable is going to be the guy for the reasons I listed at the top on how Crash can view it. But I also think it's a better hire.
00:26:20
Bret
than Ben Johnson just because I think there's ah the intangible qualities that Mike Vrabel has are more proven than what Ben Johnson has and it's what this team needs the most. I get it. You need to develop the quarterback. You need to have an offensive like genius mindset to be able to do it, but the reality is, is we don't have the tools and we're more than like a year or two away from getting ourselves reset there to be able to do it. And the other thing is when it comes to our cultural thing, I get he's a hot guy and everyone looks at like, oh, Andy Reed, you know, Sean McVeigh, ah like look at these offensive guys and how successful, but then I'd also say, well, like,
00:27:00
Bret
look at like Cliff Kingsbury, right? I mean, he was obviously an offensive guy, went to Arizona, didn't do well. Obviously now he's back in Washington and he did a great job this last year and some people were rumbling about it. Maybe he deserves a second shot, but I look at him and...
00:27:17
Bret
Yeah, but I look at him and say like, well, is that what's going to happen to Ben Johnson? Like, is he going to come out and be like, wow, he's an offensive genius, but the first time he got to run a head coach, he didn't do well. And then he kind of went back and he's just an offensive guy. Like you just, you never know with these guys. We can say confidently Vrable is a solid head coach. Uh, it's really just about his ability to sustain it and get enough of it around him to do it long-term.
00:27:43
Snooty
as you might.
00:27:43
Savage Boston
it's hard to It's hard to have the perfect coaching, you know, coaching tree, coaching scenario and replicate that over and over and over again. Like you have to look at basically like Belichick and Andy Reid or like Bill Parcells or you know what I mean? like or to
00:27:57
Bret
Mike Tomlin.
00:27:58
Savage Boston
or Tomlin right like how does Tomlin do it and it's like Tomlin isn't some oh my god incredible genius offensive blah blah blah like Tomlins is the man he's the model CEO let me control this team I got this like he is your friend and also your disciplinarian like he really is model despite him not having a lot of Super Bowl success
00:28:16
Bret
Yep.
00:28:19
Savage Boston
They still have a successful team every season, and and I know that fan base is probably pissed or whatever. you know I don't care. I don't really care about the Steelers fan base. But anyway, he's done an excellent job for a long time. and And you do need the guy who's going to command the room. That is clearly the fear with Ben Johnson. I heard he's an introvert. I heard he's not that guy. He backed up at UNC. He didn't play in the pros. So like maybe versus Mike Vrabel's this huge hulking guy who is a great pro multi-super Bowl winner. He's already been a head coach. He feels I'm like talking myself into Mike Vrabel.
00:28:55
Savage Boston
um
00:28:55
Bret
There you go. Feed into it.
00:28:57
Savage Boston
No, and well it's so funny. Everyone online is so pro Ben Johnson. I feel like it's over. like the Ben Johnson people are loud. They're young. They're the young ones who are the loud ones on there. They're like, I want Ben. I want the scheme. I need want what he's done for golf. like He's made that offense. And I agree with all that stuff, but it's true. like Mike McDaniel is one way, Cliff Kingsbury, like I don't know how many other young hotshot OCs go somewhere and they can't command it, they can't discipline. Mike McDaniel to me could could be fired. like You could fire Mike McDaniel to me. I think how they've lost that entire locker room is is feels wild to me. it's like like Inmates run the asylum, as everyone loves to say. so um I don't know, Mike variable feels like not just a safe choice, but a good choice.
Strategic Direction and Leadership Choices
00:29:44
Savage Boston
So if if he doesn't go with Rabel, I would be very, very surprised, but um I think that would also be quite exciting.
00:29:54
Snooty
My concern with variable is yes, he had the bare minimum. I think he can command the room. He can get you to be, you know, a solid organization. I question how much of that he did in Tennessee. Cause that wasn't exactly a three and 14 team that he walked into. Um, but I, I questioned what his ceiling is. Right. Like.
00:30:19
Snooty
He needs to have like a really good offensive coordinator to be with him in order to be good. How much it like how much schematically does he do defensively? Or is he just the CEO that's going to you know kind of command the culture type of thing? At which point, like is there is his potential capped by that? whereas a Johnson type, that ceiling is higher.
00:30:42
Snooty
Sure, the floor is lower, right? And I think everybody admits that, but the ceiling is definitely higher, I would argue. So I also feel like, what?
00:30:50
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:30:51
Bret
Yeah, i would I wouldn't say definitely. I think that's crazy.
00:30:54
Savage Boston
Well, I'm saying that the Ben Johnsons feeling.
00:30:56
Bret
That ceiling is definitely higher. That's crazy. How do you know that? You don't know that at all.
00:31:02
Snooty
Well, cause I would say it's definitely higher because he has the potential to have an explosive offense. And if you get a veteran defensive coordinator to have at least a mediocre defense, you can score a little points and win a lot of games.
00:31:15
Snooty
Whereas variable, you're going to need both a defensive coordinator and a good offensive coordinator to stick around and develop the quarterback.
00:31:23
Savage Boston
it Brett, think about it. Look at what he has done with that offense. like I know everyone's saying like it's Dan Campbell. It's Dan Campbell. And yeah, Dan Campbell's got the balls. He goes forward on fourth down, all that stuff. right He's the leader. ah get all yeah He makes the guys play. I get all that stuff. But you watch that offense, and you're like, man, it's just so crisp. It's so smooth. that He runs the ball a lot somehow, but really successfully. He's got golf with 118 passer rating.
00:31:50
Savage Boston
You know, it's like the things he does with that offense are are sublime. So yeah, and they've built that team out too. It's like they got pretty good players, but they don't have Justin Jefferson. I mean, the San Laporte is a good player and Montgomery is a good back and St. Brown's a really pretty good receiver. I mean, I don't think St. Brown is a crazy freak show dude. Like he's a good receiver.
00:32:14
Savage Boston
So it's funny, like with with good coaching and good scheme, what you can do for these guys, like look at Pooka Nakua in l LA. Nobody even was drafting him. He's ah he's a monster. He's a fantastic receiver because he got great coaching and a great scheme too. So it it all kind of has to come together and like we had you know, kind of none of it this year.
00:32:35
Savage Boston
I mean, mostly it felt like on ah offense, we just had no talent. Like that was the, to me, the clearest problem. Like you can't, Drake couldn't even throw it anywhere deep. I mean, you had a couple of good little out-routes and turnarounds by Henry, but when you faced a team that really pinned their ears back, Drake had trouble, a ton of trouble, especially at the end of the season.
00:32:54
Savage Boston
It's been the Chargers game, like, oh my God.
00:32:56
Snooty
They were the first team that actually attempted to take away Hunter Henry, which was baffling.
00:32:56
Savage Boston
So.
00:33:01
Savage Boston
What's Chargers?
00:33:02
Snooty
Yeah, which was baffling that they're the only team to do it.
00:33:03
Savage Boston
Yeah. Oh, they destroyed us. I mean, we couldn't.
00:33:06
Snooty
Yeah. Cause they're like, Hey, here's the one guy you can consistently throw to let's just cover him really well.
00:33:06
Savage Boston
me
00:33:12
Snooty
And then everybody else just blows. And your old line is horrific, right? Like they have no talent.
00:33:18
Savage Boston
Awful to the worst part of the sea. I mean, not the worst. There's so many worst parts. One of the worst parts was that we couldn't fucking run block. They couldn't run the football.
00:33:29
Savage Boston
at any point. I mean, it's like how many runs got stopped for like one yard and then you put Drake May black back there and you're like, all right, dude, we believe in you. And it's like, it was ridiculous season. I mean, from an offensive perspective, watching it and yeah, it was better than Mack Jones because Drake is just that much better than Mack Jones is like, but, but still what an atrocious looking offense. I don't know.
00:33:54
Snooty
There was no, there was no like, they weren't building towards anything offensively.
00:34:00
Savage Boston
from
00:34:01
Snooty
There's no rhythm. There was no, there's nothing. It's just, and admittedly it's hard to have rhythm when you have at most one NFL caliber offensive lineman on the field, maybe two, you know, but like um they just, they have no talent offensively.
00:34:17
Savage Boston
No, yeah, no, I think it's
00:34:18
Snooty
None outside of me that made, and maybe pop Douglas.
00:34:24
Savage Boston
Yeah, but Pop Douglas is like a third or fourth guy. He was a little like scat guy, like make it happen on for for six yards. Like he doesn't get yak ever. I mean, maybe a little bit he can get yak if he's wide open because he's shifty, but he's so small, you know, I don't know. he he's ah He's all right. I love, I think Hunter Henry's solid. I think Cooper was kind of solid.
00:34:46
Snooty
But now imagine having a head coach slash coordinator that could scheme pop Douglas open.
00:34:46
Savage Boston
no
00:34:52
Savage Boston
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, i'm im I'm not anti, I don't think there's a bad choice between Ben Johnson and variable. I think it obviously, again, 90 10, like it clearly will probably be very variable.
00:35:04
Snooty
Yeah, it's going to be variable.
00:35:05
Savage Boston
And even as early as Friday, Friday afternoon, like if if he goes sits with Ben Johnson, and he's like, you know, I don't think it's the time, variable could get locked up that afternoon.
00:35:15
Snooty
I think part of me doesn't want variable just because it feels like they're doing the same thing again, which is just like, well, we know him and we like him.
00:35:22
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:35:26
Snooty
So we're just going to stick with that. It's like, Oh, where they're really casting a wide net. It's like, really? Cause left, which, um, and, um, he was the pep Hamilton.
00:35:35
Bret
pa pay on time
00:35:37
Snooty
Yep. Um, like. They're the token, you know, to meet the Rooney rule ah interviews. And then it's like Ben Johnson, who you may or may not be giving a legitimate chance at this. And it's variable. It's actually really not interviewing anybody. There's not a fucking wide net. That's that's like a fucking sniper shot. It's variable. That's all it is. You're doing anything.
00:35:58
Bret
Well in the end, the end?
00:35:59
Savage Boston
It feels very targeted.
00:36:00
Bret
The other thing is, is yeah so I agree. I think ultimately they're i mean they're going to interview Ben Johnson, but I don't think they're i think there're pretty set in their ways. ah and I don't think they're really giving any strong consideration to him nor any other candidate other than Mike Rabel.
00:36:21
Bret
That being said, like you look at it, you're like, that's really dumb. you know you've You've essentially hired, now this is gonna be your fourth head coach, but you you've never really done like full searches like this to get your guy, right? And yeah, as I said, like I want them to hire Mike Vrabel, I think they will hire Mike Vrabel, but you get the opportunity to talk to a guy like Ben Johnson, who, yeah, i you know we'll see where he's at as a head coach, but he's obviously,
00:36:49
Bret
right now, in the game, one of the best offensive minds going. And you ask the guy, like, how would you develop Drake May? What would be the piece, like, how would you approach with Drake May and stuff and, like, ask him those questions in an interview and just hear what the hell the guy has to say because, like, you could learn something, right? And you could be like, hey, maybe that's the kind of thing we need to have in mind when it comes to our offensive coordinator or, like, the scheme we start to, like, kind of consider when it comes to it and try to replicate some of what he's trying to do there. and you know, even if you're he's not the guy that you hire, having those conversations, getting that information is helpful.
Reflections on Patriots' Future and Organizational Hope
00:37:25
Savage Boston
I think Ben Johns is genuinely interested in the Patriots job. He's taken three interviews now. I think all three he has some legitimate interest in. He's getting an interview with the Bears, the Patriots, and the Jaguars. I think the Jaguars kind of screwed themselves with keeping their GM. In reality, it's still between the Bears and the Patriots.
00:37:46
Savage Boston
With Vrable too, I think if the Bears, if the Patriots for some reason choose Johnson, I think the Bears get Vrable. Do you know what I mean? I think it's like a flip-flop. And then that would be really interesting to see how Drake versus Caleb develop over time.
00:38:01
Savage Boston
It'll be interesting regardless, because that offense with Caleb and those receivers with Ben Johnson, all of a sudden you're like, oh, OK, that's going to be pretty good compared to what they have this year.
00:38:05
Bret
Interdivision too.
00:38:11
Snooty
and Their division, that's that's the selling point.
00:38:14
Savage Boston
Yeah, the divisions. yeah um
00:38:16
Snooty
We have one real team in our division. They have three.
00:38:21
Savage Boston
Yeah, that's true. I mean, to be sitting under vision, I think Miami just seems like a dud, you you know, obviously the Jets are the Jets.
00:38:26
Bret
imploding.
00:38:28
Savage Boston
And then the Bills, I thought would get worse. But Josh Allen is apparently superhuman and can carry that entire franchise. So he's much better than I think anyone thought. And that's why he should probably be MVP.
00:38:40
Savage Boston
Although Lamar deserves it too. I think Josh just carries that franchise on his back. It's kind of insane. i'm Kind of like what Brady did in some respects. But all right, I'll lock it up here so we don't go crazy on the timing. um About near 40 minutes. So appreciate everyone listening in. We'll have to come back again soon. I'm sure there'll be a lot more news coming up. So we'll see everybody later. Peace.