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Navigating Church Planting and Cultural Contexts
104 Plays1 year ago
In this episode of the "Let's Talk Diaspora" podcast, hosts Bud and Rebecca delve into the complex topic of church planting within cross-cultural contexts, particularly in diaspora communities. They explore the tensions and challenges of integrating diaspora people groups into church settings, considering aspects such as culture, language, identity, and generational shifts.
The hosts begin by addressing the tension between establishing an indigenous church within diaspora communities versus assimilating them into existing churches. They highlight the importance of preserving cultural identity, language, and customs while also creating a genuine relationship with God. The hosts emphasize that the stakes are high, as people's souls are at stake, and church planting plays a crucial role in reaching the unreached.
The discussion expands to the significance of understanding the generational context within the diaspora. First-generation immigrants, 1.5-generation individuals, and second-generation individuals have unique needs and considerations when it comes to church involvement. The hosts stress the importance of discerning whether existing church models are suitable for each generation or whether specialized approaches are necessary.
The hosts advocate for a balanced approach to church planting, considering the strategic benefits of investing time upfront to establish strong foundations. This allows for a more organic and effective growth process as indigenous believers disciple others and integrate their culture and faith. The hosts acknowledge that the pace of growth may be slower, but the long-term impact can be more profound.
Throughout the episode, the hosts emphasize cultural sensitivity and the need to recognize one's own cultural biases. They discuss the potential for redeemable aspects of traditional cultural practices and forms, encouraging open dialogue within the community of believers to determine what should be retained or adapted.
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Transcript
Introduction to Season's Theme
00:00:09
Speaker
Welcome to the Let's Talk diaspora podcast. We're in season two where we're talking about the uncomfortable middle.
Church Planting for Diaspora
00:00:16
Speaker
And today our topic of discussion is going to begin to talk about church planting and not just church planting, but what does it look like to start to gather people from diaspora people groups into church? And so Rebecca, what, what is the tension that we see? Because again, like with discipleship, yeah, we should disciple everyone. Everyone should be a part of a church. But Rebecca, what's, what's the tension?
Indigenous vs Integrated Churches
00:00:40
Speaker
I think that the tension is whether they should have a church within themselves, an indigenous type church, or more assimilate them into a church that's already existing that might not be completely similar with who they are, their background, their language, their culture. Yeah, that is...
00:01:04
Speaker
a challenge in the diet. It's a challenge everywhere where there is really frontier missions where you're trying to reach people where they don't have a church. And if a person is from an unreached people group in the country of origin in their city or village, the likelihood is that they're not going to have a church. But similarly in the diaspora, if they are an unreached people group, they're probably not going to have a church.
00:01:33
Speaker
So Rebecca what's what's at stake in this conversation like what's what's worst case scenario what's best case scenario why why is this important.
Cultural Identity in Diaspora Faith
00:01:47
Speaker
I think a lot of it is falls on really what.
00:01:54
Speaker
keeping their culture and keeping who they are, their language, some of that to me is at stake. And I think really being who they are, they're going to have a genuine relationship with the Lord because they're keeping at those heart levels of who they are with their church setting, if that makes sense.
00:02:22
Speaker
Yeah, I'm following. I think when I think of what's at stake, I think people's souls are at stake, ultimately. This comes back to evangelism because who and what has been commissioned to be a representation of the kingdom on earth
00:02:43
Speaker
It is the church. We can't get away from that. That is the establishment or institution that God has given us. And if you don't like the word institution, you can say community, organism, whatever it is, but that is what God has given us. And I think, Rebecca, you hit on a key point of them being able to keep their language, their culture, ultimately their identity.
00:03:07
Speaker
I think we can learn a lot from mistakes people have made overseas. And I say mistakes in a very gracious way. Well-intending mistakes. Maybe mistakes is a strong word. Unintended consequences may be a way of saying it. But in much of, just pick a region, in much of South Asia, much of India,
00:03:34
Speaker
To be a Christian in India means something way different than what it has to mean.
Culture and Christianity in Diaspora
00:03:40
Speaker
And what I mean by that is there is a Christian culture in India. So if a Muslim or a Hindu heard the gospel and they believed
00:03:51
Speaker
They're not only weighing the implications of the gospel. They're weighing the implications of losing their Hindu or Muslim cultural identity. I'm not saying religious. I'm not saying, yes, still go do all of those things. But in much of the world, culture and religion are so intertwined that they see Christianity as something foreign.
00:04:13
Speaker
And the same thing happens in the diaspora because they see American churches, they may see African American churches, they may see Hispanic churches, but they see Christianity as foreign as an Arab Muslim. And so it's not just the weight and implications of the gospel, it's also this idea of their identity, their community, and I think that's really important.
00:04:44
Speaker
I agree. It's very important. I mean, again.
00:04:47
Speaker
It's who they are. It's who they have been, you know, and having, I often think about it in my own context. If I had to totally change, you know, everything that I've ever known and what would that feel like and how would I experience that? And I think it can be a place that will keep us from not knowing the Lord completely. If we totally change who we are and who God's created us to be in the place that he's planted us.
00:05:18
Speaker
I think we have to think beyond just language because I've been in parts of the world where I was in a church service in a different language. It was in the heart language of the people, but the form was identical to what you could find in the United States, Canada, or Western Europe.
00:05:38
Speaker
and that form was totally foreign to their concepts. So if I come back to India, I don't know if this is true, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard people say, you know, politicians stand on a platform and speak, and Indians say, we don't trust politicians. So if you think, what is the Western model of church? Well, someone stands on a platform behind a little podium and they speak. From a Hindu, it's like, oh, he's a politician.
00:06:08
Speaker
We don't trust politicians. So even the form is also important. It reminds me of a story when I was overseas in South Asia, very similar to the podium story.
00:06:25
Speaker
I found that a lot of South Asian women don't cross their legs. And I found I was crossing my legs a lot. And I ask, you know, why do women not cross their legs? And they say because those that cross their legs tend to be more like a politician, more an authority, more
00:06:45
Speaker
you know, uppity up and, you know, way above us. So I found quickly that I didn't want to cross my legs. But as we talk about the church, I think about men and women in the church. You know, where do men and women sit in the church? In cultures, most cultures, the diaspora that we're serving and talking about, most of their cultures, men and women are separated.
00:07:11
Speaker
in at least different parts of the room, if not a separate room. So how does that look for the church?
Music and Cultural Expression
00:07:19
Speaker
So there are a lot in music is another thing I find that even in developing songs and things and them having songs in their own heart language as well as own rhythm and culture type music that they utilize. So it is beyond the language piece that you talked about bud.
00:07:39
Speaker
Yeah, music is a good point. Are the people writing their own music? And early on, they probably don't have the propensity to do that. But I think that is a sign of maturity of an indigenous church is when they start to write their own music and understanding that much of the world is very musical.
00:08:00
Speaker
It's not like they need our help on how to do it. They just need to learn on how to express it. And maybe our role is just to encourage them to write their song. So earlier this year, I was in an Eastern European Muslim country.
00:08:16
Speaker
doing some training and visiting some churches. And it was pretty sad because I don't speak that language very well at all. But because they were singing the same songs that I sing, I knew the songs because I knew the beat. They had just taken, you know, songs from the Gettys or Hillsong or whoever and translate it into their language. They weren't singing their own songs. And I don't want you to hear me communicate. Oh, they're less than they're less mature.
00:08:46
Speaker
But that would be an area that I would encourage them in is what would it look like for you to write your own songs? Because the church in this country is is only about two decades old. So, you know, two decades ago, there was there was not actually three decades ago. Let me get my math right. Three decades ago, there was not a church. It was a closed country. But now there are churches.
00:09:10
Speaker
And early on, you saw growth in the churches, and you've seen that stagnate tremendously because it's somewhat of a foreign form. It's in the language. The music is a little foreign. It is not traditional language. The model and method of meeting is very Western, and it's a Muslim majority country.
00:09:35
Speaker
I believe that could be part of the reason why they're seeing some stagnation in that.
Generational Identity and Church Integration
00:09:40
Speaker
So like when we think what's at stake, if you get church wrong, I think people's souls are at stake. You're very right. Which, you know, as you talk about all this, that research word comes back to my head. Searching a group that we're, you know, out to share with as we're trying to
00:10:04
Speaker
Help know better how to disciple them in the church Into a church setting that is most best for them So I would say now we have to think on two sides of this, right? So we've been primarily talking about we've been referencing a lot country of origin We've referenced diaspora, but really this is applying to first-generation immigrants We also have to realize that in our cities
00:10:35
Speaker
Our diaspora populations may be generation 1.5, generation two, in some places like New York or LA with some East Asian populations, maybe third or fourth generation. That changes the conversation a little bit, Rebecca. What happens as people are assimilated into culture here over generations, not talking about like seven years, but like,
00:11:05
Speaker
growing up here, being born here, how does that change the conversation?
00:11:11
Speaker
Well, before we answer that, maybe I don't know. This is, I want to go back practically because there may be people listening to this podcast that don't understand what you're meaning by first generation or 1.5, you know, generation or a two generation. Maybe we should go back to that. Can you explain those real quick? And then ask me the question again. Good qualifier. So a first generation would be someone who was born in another country.
00:11:40
Speaker
their developmental years were in that country, their worldview was shaped by their country and culture of origin. And then they come here and we know sociologically that most people's worldviews don't actually change a whole lot. That's first generation. Generation 1.5 is, it's maybe somewhat of a new term, but it's basically someone who was born in country of origin
00:12:05
Speaker
but really most of their formative years were in the diaspora. So let's say they moved to the United States when they were four, now they're 24. That's generation 1.5. Generation two is they were born here. Their parents were first generation. Generation three is then the child of a second generation. And so as you get time away from country of origin,
00:12:34
Speaker
not talking four, five, seven, 10 years, but generations, their identity really starts to shift. So the question is, how does that play into this conversation? Because I'm thinking of communities in LA, communities in New York that are in second generation. How does that change this conversation? Is there a place for the existing prevailing model Western church for diaspora populations from that context?
00:13:05
Speaker
I think there is a place, um, what I can see, um, one is because a lot of those, when you get to a 1.5 or a two generation, one, the language is going to look different. I mean, English is probably going to be their predominant language. So getting into more of a traditional church setting, one that will help, but also I think they
00:13:30
Speaker
When you fall into those generations, this is my assumption and not my knowing from, you know, experiencing it myself. But when you fall into those situations, you want to be like the majority around you. So you want to be involved in a church type setting that would be more similar to what you're used to and what you're living here in the United States or North America would be my assumption.
00:13:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think this is where it gets a lot less clear, because then you have to think about the context of the people group, the size of that segment in the community, because there are second and third generation Chinese who are still only marrying Chinese, who still predominantly speak Chinese, even though they're
00:14:22
Speaker
several generations removed, they are very much still Chinese American. They would say Chinese, right? But they are Chinese American. Other segments of the population could totally be disconnected from home culture totally by generation 1.5.
00:14:44
Speaker
But that argument, we have to look at data, or at least case studies. Because we can think, oh, they speak English. They went to university in English. They married someone who is not from their people group. We still have to look at the data in that and think, what is best practice? I think one key indicator is, are they willing to marry outside of their culture?
00:15:14
Speaker
there are a lot of Thai who marry outside of their culture. So for example, you know, older Thai populations, and I say older meaning like generation 1.5, generation two, if they're marrying Americans or Canadians or Hispanics or Arabs, like they're not tied to that identity, then I think there's a tremendous opportunity for churches that are intentionally being multi-ethnic
00:15:44
Speaker
And I would even say multi-ethnic is probably not the best word it's multi-racial because there's a lot of shared it's really a homogenous unit that multi-ethnic churches are reaching but they're really multi-racial but what it gives is people the ability to say everyone's kind of different here I fit in because that's really what it comes back to is do I fit in do I belong is Am I part of we or am I part of they?
00:16:13
Speaker
I think a case study that we can look at is the Bosniak population. I recently read a book about the Bosnian war.
00:16:22
Speaker
And so that happened in the early 90s. A lot of refugees came to places like Chicago and St. Louis. And there are many people who are now young adults who would fall into Generation 1.5 and Generation 2 because they came in 1994, 1995. So 20 years ago,
00:16:45
Speaker
they are still a very significantly unreached people group. You are not seeing Bosniaks coming to churches, period. So you have this one side where you have this idea of like, yeah, they'll just come to our churches. Now, maybe one more generation that might happen, but I think that's an example where it's just not happening. Another example, a very similar people group are Albanians.
00:17:11
Speaker
Albanians are a little less Muslim. They've actually had a population here probably longer. You do see some Albanian churches. You do see Albanians who marry Americans and now they're part of American churches. So if anything, what I'm trying to say is it's not
00:17:29
Speaker
clear. I can't say this is the way. We just have to be open and aware of differences in people. And I'll just add one more thing, Rebecca, is even if someone's been here three generations but they're a strong Muslim and they go to a church and people on the stage are not dressed conservatively, it doesn't matter about language or anything because that is a religious conviction that
00:17:50
Speaker
No, I'm I may have come to faith, but I have this deep conviction that it's been instilled to me by my parents as I dress conservatively. They may have stopped wearing the hijab, but still it has that deep conviction of conservative dress. And honestly, some of our churches, some of the ladies don't dress that way. Well, and as you mentioned that and some of the other things you've mentioned as well, made me think a lot of the cultures in our diaspora setting are very
00:18:19
Speaker
strong in their culture. They're very, they want to keep those traditions. They want to keep those cultural things, the foods they eat, their language, those things much stronger than we would in our Western society that we've not been tied as strongly to a culture. So I could see there being a lot of tension among families and they're so family oriented. So how important is it for them to have a church that is more
00:18:47
Speaker
set for their culture and their people than to join another church. So they can keep those cultural pieces, language, foods, just everything. And then the family stays together as well and continues to grow together as believers. Yeah,
Intentional Church Planting Strategies
00:19:09
Speaker
that's good. So when I think about, we mentioned this at the beginning, we said church planting. We've not talked about church planting yet.
00:19:17
Speaker
But Rebecca, when we think about church planting, that is a little bit slower go because let's say I'm just an evangelist. Maybe I'm discipling people. You listen to a previous conversation about discipleship, but then I'm just assimilating people into churches. I can go a lot faster. Church planting is going to be longer. Is there a case, make an argument for me, convince me, convince our listeners,
00:19:45
Speaker
Is it sometimes strategic to go slow, to ultimately go fast? Meaning, investing a lot of time upfront and establishing some things, so that way, one, it outlives us, but it will actually exponentially be faster than the model I previously explained.
00:20:09
Speaker
I think so because I think if we go back to that discipleship piece and the discipleship happening and it happening as an indigenous group, they're going to be stronger and they're going to be sharing more with those like them in a quicker manner as they're established good and where they are with their
00:20:30
Speaker
walk with the Lord, as well as in that church setting. And I think too, in a Western mindset, we have to get out of, and I just wanted to throw this in. It may not go exactly with what we're talking about specifically the second.
00:20:45
Speaker
But it's important for us to remember that church does not have to be that building. Church can be in a home with a few people. And usually it's a couple of families. I mean, that would be ideal. So I think we also in our Western context have to get into that mindset. And that doesn't sound like multiplication and fast growing when you talk about those small units in a home.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because that is also attention of what do you mean by church? And there are some cultures who have really embraced the idea that church is a building. I would include the Western culture has really embraced that idea. You say, where are you going? You're going to church.
00:21:38
Speaker
and let's say you just have a meeting with a pastor on a Thursday, it's not like you're going to gather with the body of believers, you're just going to a building. And buildings are not evil, they're a created object. It can be used by God and for God and his kingdom, and it can also be used by the enemy for his purposes who, the Bible says he's the king, he's the Lord of this world.
00:22:07
Speaker
So it is depending on how you use it. So don't hear buildings are immoral. But when we start to look at the Bible and define what is church, where did churches meet? We start to look at church history and the pattern. It's a couple hundred years later after the establishment of the church that you have any indication of a standalone church building. Historically, they met in homes.
00:22:36
Speaker
And so it is very easy because this is not easy. It is for lack of a better word. It's easy to see a family come to faith and that be the seed of a church because many of these cultures make decisions as a community.
00:22:54
Speaker
And I think we're always going back to evangelism. Even does our evangelism method and model, meaning do I seek to share with an individual or do I seek to share with families in their home, is going to inform how we can get to discipleship groups, Bible studies, and church formation. And in my mind, church is less about a building or the number of people involved
00:23:23
Speaker
And it is more about, are the right people doing the right things for the right reasons? And we can unpack that maybe, but just in brief, I mentioned this in a previous episode, just acts too. Is it the right people doing the right things for the right reasons and trusting God to do what He would do in their community? And it's about His timing, not our speed and our timing is what I hear as well, as you mentioned that.
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah, just want to emphasize for some reason, I always come back to research. I don't know why, Rebecca, but just being informed of cultural nuances. And if you're if you're working in a context where you have seen people come to faith, you're beginning to disciple them and you're beginning to think about church formation, you probably already know a lot about their culture.
00:24:22
Speaker
I'm just encouraging you to try to remember that and remember that you're coming with a cultural bias. What we have to do is we have to unload all of our cultural bias, which is honestly completely impossible. We can't unload it, but what we can do is we can recognize it.
00:24:46
Speaker
The two ditches is not recognizing it or recognizing it and going so far in the other direction that you're contextualizing too much that you're bringing in syncretism or like you're blending their previous religions, practices, and not dealing with the form.
Adapting Cultural Practices in Worship
00:25:07
Speaker
So let me expound on that just a little bit, dealing with the form.
00:25:12
Speaker
for Hindus, they have something called puja, which is like worship. And I would say, people are gonna be uncomfortable with this, that there are aspects of that that are redeemable, and they can use that in their devotion to Jesus. There are aspects that have to be removed. And it's wisdom and knowing what is able to stay and what needs to be removed,
00:25:41
Speaker
And then honestly saying as the outsider, it's not my job to say you have to remove that. I will ask questions and say, why is Krishna still here? It's like, oh, well, he's one of our gods too. Okay, let's look at the scripture. I think a perfect example is in Ephesians, I think it's 19 or 20.
00:26:06
Speaker
I think it's the end of 19 where it talks about the Ephesians were burning all their magic books. It's like there has to be a break with the occult, with previous religions, but there are redeemable aspects of the form and we can't throw out the form because the form was attached to idol worship, right? The form is just a form. And then some people get really, you know,
00:26:33
Speaker
upset I guess is the word if like I'm going to a Hindu temple or I'm going to a puja and they're like you're worshiping you're worshiping other gods I like I don't remember who said this but I read it in a book I think it's like you can't accidentally worship something
00:26:51
Speaker
Right. You can't just accidentally. So being around it in the form is not necessarily evil. Now, when we think of the scripture, if that form causes a brother or sister to stumble, then they use the discretion to remove the form because it reminds them of something. But it's, it's, you have to let them make that decision. And sometimes I've worked with people who remove too many forms. I think, I think, Oh, you can leave that. They're like, no, we have to get rid of it, but they know better than me.
00:27:20
Speaker
So I think that is the encouragement is just learn with them in the process of discerning this and doing it in a community of believers.
Understanding Cultural Nuances
00:27:32
Speaker
Don't try to do it with one individual because then it's really on that one individual, but the community filled with the Holy Spirit will figure this out.
00:27:41
Speaker
and on God's timing too, I think is another point that we've brought up today. Whether that be fast or slow, but it's really all about God's timing in it and making sure we do it right with Him holding us through it.
00:27:56
Speaker
All right, well, this has been a big topic. Thank you for listening today and there will be some show notes and please don't hesitate to reach out to us. There'll be contact information if you have questions or thoughts or comments. We'd love to hear from you. This has been Let's Talk Diaspora.
00:28:18
Speaker
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00:28:22
Speaker
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