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The Christmas Killing of Tim McNamara
61 Plays4 months ago
The orchardist of age 64 marries his neice, age 42. What can go wrong?
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Hearth, Home and Homicide'
00:00:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Hello listeners. You're listening to Hearth, Home and Homicide. I'm Bridgette.
00:00:07
Caroline
And I'm Caroline.
00:00:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Hearth, Home and Homicide is a family production about family murders. Caroline and I narrate each story and Andy is our producer. As Caroline and I talk about each family murder, we're not only keen on watching justice unfold for the killer, whoever that may be,
00:00:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But we're also looking at the ripple effect of family murder. It just never ends. And we're very sensitive to our victims and their families.
The Setting: Soap Lake and Personal Ties
00:00:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So today, Caroline, we're going to be talking about a close neighbor.
00:00:46
Caroline
Yeah.
00:00:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, when I say close neighbor, I mean, in the state where we live. And we, as a family, when you were younger, when we were living in Richland, Washington, we were not far from Soap Lake.
00:00:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:01:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And that's where our episode is taking place today. And listeners, this is our last episode in season two. Our listeners know that we are a family production. So I want to let everyone know that Caroline, Andy and I are going to have a third season. We still want to look at cases and talking about what on earth could possibly lead to a family murder.
00:01:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's still a mystery to me, even though this is the end of our second c season season of trying to... What happened here? Anyway, we hope everybody has a fun New Year's, a safe celebration, and a happy 2025. Don't murder anybody. That's our go-to rule.
00:01:53
Caroline
It's a good one. It really is just very mean.
00:01:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There's always another option.
00:01:57
Caroline
Yeah.
00:01:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Actually, probably a couple million of other options.
Tim McNamara's Journey from Washington to Belize
00:02:00
Caroline
Yep. 100%.
00:02:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Just go take a nap. So our murder today begins in Soap Lake, Washington, close to where we're recording, as I said. and But then our story moves to Belize. Now that's in Central America, um South America. ah I think it's part of Mexico. I'm not sure. So all of you listeners who go to Belize, please forgive me for my terrible ah guidebook.
00:02:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Then we're going to come back to Soap Lake at the at the end of our story. So the whole thing is just a riddle wrapped in a mystery about how our victim today wound up dead in a family murder. So let's start with Tim McNamara, our victim. ah Tim McNamara, Tim Thee was his a given name. Tim was what he went by. So we're going to call him Tim.
Life in Soap Lake: Town and Politics
00:03:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And his middle name is Patrick. So Timothy Patrick McNamara was born on December 10, 1948 to John and Edith McNamara. Now he grew up in a small agricultural town, Soap Lake. That's in Grant County, which has about 2,000 residents at the time of the murder. The closest big city, Spokane,
00:03:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
is 125 miles away. And a lot of people don't know this, but ah Washington State is known as the Evergreen State. But the east side of Washington State is ah not an Evergreen State.
00:03:50
Caroline
No.
00:03:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it's It's called the scab lands. It's, yes.
00:03:53
Caroline
Very sagebrush. Very desert. It's beautiful. It's wonderful, but it is nothing like the west side.
00:04:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Right, I always, when I'm in a area like Soap Lake, I always feel like it's haunted in a beautiful way.
00:04:11
Caroline
Yeah.
00:04:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it's The Earth is telling us a story about what has happened to it thus far.
00:04:17
Caroline
Yeah.
00:04:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so you've got a lot of rock outcroppings. You've got a lot of desert type ah environment. It's not lush, but it's very beautiful.
00:04:29
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and for to me. So, um anyway, he was born in 48.
Tim McNamara's Personal and Family Struggles
00:04:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, um you know, he was getting older by the time of our murder. ah The town of Soap Lake ah reflects a healing water hole there that people swear by as a toxin, tonic for the sit sick and the weary. I almost couldn't get that out.
00:04:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The part of I need to go to Soap Lake immediately, that part of Soap Lake is a little known visitor spot. A lot of the people who visit Soap Lake are from Washington State and some of them are from elsewhere in Grant County.
00:05:12
Caroline
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I've never been in Soap Lake. I'm not going into Soap Lake just because I don't know what that would be like and I don't want to find out. So anyway, other than that, it's a rule.
00:05:27
Caroline
Yeah, yep.
00:05:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's it's a rugged place and it's small and conservatively it's I mean politically it's conservative.
00:05:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:05:36
Caroline
Yeah, which is not to say bad just tends to be less progressive or less open to alternatives is really kind of how I hear that.
00:05:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So.
00:05:46
Caroline
I think we're hearing it differently.
00:05:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah They want to protect what they have. They don't want outsiders telling them to be this other way.
00:05:53
Caroline
Right, to right, right.
00:05:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I get that. And I think that's part of the lightning behind the American spirit is don't be telling me what I can and cannot do.
00:06:01
Caroline
Yes. Don't try it on me. That's right. oh
00:06:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So i that's what I take from it. And the reason I mention all of this is because this is one of those family murders that the community plays a part in the storytelling of it.
00:06:19
Caroline
Yeah.
00:06:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's kind of very interesting to sort of realize that, you know, a town that something happens in can have a bearing on what happens in the story.
00:06:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Anyway, back to Tim.
00:06:35
Caroline
Yeah.
00:06:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He was raised in a locally prominent family. As in most small farming communities, the most successful farmers, ranchers and orchardists usually garner local fame and respect.
00:06:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The ones that are running a family place that's been around for eons and sometimes it's, remember we did a story about the pecan groves and how the the people who made the pecan shell softer were famous in that town.
00:07:05
Caroline
Yes.
00:07:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:07:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's kind of the same thing because oh This family is multi-generational. They're very well respected in the town. And growing up with his siblings, Tim enjoyed a privileged upbringing. And he was given by his parents an apple orchard, which he managed throughout his life. So what would it be like to have your whole life unfold before you
00:07:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
at the day of your birth.
00:07:47
Caroline
Yeah.
00:07:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um I think that that would be a very different experience than the one I have had. And I think probably a lot of people.
00:07:56
Caroline
Yeah.
00:07:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Despite his caring nature and a desire for family, he had experienced three divorces by 2012. Now, I don't know what the first three marriages were like.
00:08:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
A lot of times when you grow up and you marry for the first time at a young age, You really are not, you don't know what the heck you're doing.
00:08:20
Caroline
well yeah and when you're okay so let's break it down when you're 18 to 20 you're an entirely different person than you are from a you know 29 to 30 and from there you're an entirely different person from 39 to 40 i mean it's just the way that the life is constructed you're working towards things when you're younger you're maintaining certain things when you're in the middle and you're gearing up towards working towards a future goal as you start to age further.
00:08:50
Caroline
You know what I mean? So you're a different person.
00:08:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yeah. You can be a different person in different goals, different aspirations, even different tastes in how you want your life to look and feel and be and all of the above.
00:08:56
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, I mean, you know, I don't really think it's a big deal for somebody to be divorced a time or two. ah This was for him, it was three. And I don't know, he grew up in Soap Lake and, you know, was now an adult and he's running an orchard in Soap Lake.
00:09:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
that, um you know, takes a lot of work. So perhaps he was one of those guys. He was a husband seldom available for the emotional endowments that come with family life.
00:09:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And um maybe that's what happened. Or perhaps his wives were not suited to that kind of hard work where you really never are off the clock.
00:09:45
Caroline
Yeah.
00:09:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're worrying about the weather. You're borrowing money and betting on success year after year. That would kill me.
00:09:54
Caroline
Oh, I could not hang with that. I can barely like. Yeah, no, i'm not i can you know I can barely ride public transportation because I just can't rely on it. You know what I mean?
00:10:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Uh-huh.
00:10:03
Caroline
it's just like And they come all the time.
00:10:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yep.
00:10:06
Caroline
They got a whole schedule. So i yeah, I could never live like that unless it was a passion. So I do think that there's some passion behind this kind of lifestyle.
00:10:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yep. Maybe Tim McNamara was a dubious individual
Tracy Nestle's Quest for Identity
00:10:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
behind closed doors. You know, that's a possibility also when you look at somebody with three, three different marriages.
00:10:23
Caroline
That's also true. Yeah.
00:10:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But anyway, he was devoted to his two children, Jennifer and Caleb McNamara. By the time of his third divorce, his kids were grown and Tim McNamara was 64.
00:10:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's probably thinking, where did the time go? In pictures, he looks very burly, very healthy, very pleased with himself and his achievements.
00:10:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you know, we've lived in Washington state for a very long time. Caroline, you've lived in Washington state your entire life.
00:10:58
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And just the idea that apples, grapes, wine, ah farmland going on all over the place,
00:11:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and Microsoft on the other end of that spectrum and SpaceX and or Blue Horizon and I love it, but I really want to hone in on how much I love apples.
00:11:15
Caroline
Yeah right. Nintendo was here. Oh yeah. Yeah.
00:11:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I do not have to go very far to find a Washington State apple.
00:11:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:11:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um and bring it into my home and it's just a nice feeling and I love it and I appreciate all the work that Tim McNamara and his family put into that land and again he was very well respected for the success of his orchard and because of that he was a so-called big man in a small town.
00:12:01
Caroline
Mm-hmm. It's nice to meet you.
00:12:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and had been his whole life. And I think, I mean, I don't know what each day was like, but at the end of the day, he was ah he was a big man in a small town.
00:12:14
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So what on earth could come crashing into this wonderful apple world in which to him, this was the only home he'd ever known. And so Blake, why wouldn't that be
00:12:25
Caroline
yeah
00:12:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
comforting and wonderful and delightful and you don't know any better, you think this is Shangri-La because in my mind, it is.
00:12:37
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so, you know, what is going on? So what is going on came in human form.
00:12:44
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah Probably not gonna come as a shock, but it came in female form.
00:12:47
Caroline
Yeah.
00:12:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And um it came in kind of relatively young form. And I remember he's 64, but he's probably got the health profile of a 30-year-old because of all that hard work and all that.
00:13:04
Caroline
Well, and the ego, you know, big man in a small town is going to still have a touch on the ego.
00:13:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes,
00:13:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yes and you're going to be pampered, you know, or pampered might be the wrong world word.
00:13:12
Caroline
Yes, yes.
00:13:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're going to be looked up to and you're going to be basking in this glory.
00:13:21
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah, people want to please you. People want to talk to you. People want you to come to their house or you're a big man in a small, you know, it is a, it's a position of some serious clout, I guess.
00:13:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. And people look at you when they see you and they think, I wish I was like that.
00:13:43
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
they they're And so in other words, he was he was enviable.
00:13:47
Caroline
Yes.
00:13:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But this particular story, I mean, the story about a young woman coming into an aging man's life, not that 64 is aging, but It's a story often repeated.
00:14:02
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's a trope. I mean, you know, it's an eye roller because of how common it is.
00:14:06
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And ah this particular story is different, though, due to the perplexing motive, the state of justice for his killer, because he is the one that's going to be murdered here.
00:14:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I i think And a larger than usual usual dose of what happened here, which is what we're all about. Like, how did that happen? how do you How do you go from being, you know, glorified in your town that you were born in, born to privileged parents who gave you an orchard and boy, how did you take care of that orchard and
00:14:36
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
At the time of his death, that orchard was worth between one and a half and $2 million.
00:15:00
Caroline
Oh, wow.
00:15:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
dollars so um it So that tells me it was a very good income producer for the orchardist and and the people who work on the orchard.
00:15:02
Caroline
That's a lot.
00:15:10
Caroline
Yeah, big time.
00:15:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I said there's going to be a female here, so enter Tracy Nestle. Now, Tracy Nestle grew up in Soap Lake. And her single mother never would say anything about her father. And by that, I mean it was a mystery who her father was. Who is my daddy? I'm not going to tell you. This led to a lifetime of identity dysphoria, according to Tracy. Now, Tracy doesn't call it identity dysphoria. I'm using that word. I'm using that word even though I'm not a psychologist.
00:15:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm not a doctor. I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not an interest. I'm a podcaster looking at this and going, Tracy calls it identity crisis that is lifelong.
00:16:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I, I know what you mean Tracy, but I don't think something that lasts a lifetime is a crisis.
00:16:17
Caroline
Right.
00:16:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think that You know, and then we, it to her, you know, defense, she, we call it in our culture, an identity crisis.
00:16:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:16:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Never knowing where you really belong. Now, you know, with, with Tim, he knows where he really belongs.
00:16:39
Caroline
Oh yeah.
00:16:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now you take the polar opposite of that and that's Tracy.
00:16:44
Caroline
never could quite figure out where she came from. Every face she looks at, I mean we've seen this kind of in movies touched on a little bit, but I don't know that people touch on it enough in the arts at least, but this idea of the first
00:16:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No.
00:16:58
Caroline
The first person in your life that is meant to unconditionally love you and protect you and sort of like hold you as you move through the world is your parents. Right.
00:17:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:17:08
Caroline
But we also know that's not a requirement from on high, meaning not every parent accepts that calling. And so, you know, you do have kids who are abandoned by that role.
00:17:21
Caroline
And so that piece is, I think, what starts breeding all these and never ending questions in their life. About this origin because it's the one thing we're all supposed to be getting at birth, right?
00:17:35
Caroline
Like but we don't all get it at birth Yeah Yeah
00:17:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes. it's and it's It's partly an American ideal. it's It's a lot American. And I think probably European to some extent, some England and France and so forth.
The Secret and Scandal of Tim and Tracy's Relationship
00:17:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But elsewhere in the world, you know, you bring children into the world.
00:17:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
to grow into land workers, you know, or whatever the family survival system is.
00:18:03
Caroline
right yeah that's true good point yeah
00:18:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So it's it's something that we all need. There's no doubt about it. um And at the same time, not every civilization believes that that is the role of the parent.
00:18:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think that, you know, Tracy calls it an identity crisis, um but it lasts a lifetime. And so I think it's more like a ah thought process problem or a lifelong fear or pain that is so painful. But you would look at the person and you would not see that they're in pain.
00:18:44
Caroline
Right.
00:18:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um So Tracy appears to suffer from not knowing who her biological parents are. She only has one known parent who kept the other half of her identity hidden.
00:18:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now I'm going to editorialize here. So I just got through saying that America is pampers, they're babies, but not everybody does that.
00:19:07
Caroline
Yeah.
00:19:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's not universal. um And so here comes the opposite of that, which is to say that in my opinion, Secrets within a family can be highly toxic and corrosive.
00:19:21
Caroline
Yeah.
00:19:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Very much so when the secret affects the other people in the family.
00:19:25
Caroline
Yes.
00:19:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, for this mother, for whatever reason, to basically say to her daughter, I know who your father is, but I'm not going to tell you.
00:19:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
To me, that's cruel.
00:19:42
Caroline
That's super messed up because what's your point? Why not lie further and say you don't know and so that you can be in it together with this child. Like that is really cruel to say like I know something you don't and I will never tell you.
00:19:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I just think Tracy's mother messed up there because if she enjoys that kind of secretive, um where's the where is the intimacy going to be between her and her mother?
00:20:00
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:10
Caroline
That's what I mean. Like her mom should have stepped into that pain with her and lied about her knowledge for as long as she could. Not that that's better. Lies are bad. It's just that if your lie is then going to isolate and ostracize one person,
00:20:26
Caroline
why not get in the trenches with them and just say, you know, I don't know, but I'm here with you and I'm here with you and, you know, I'll do what I can to get you through this life and we'll find, you know what I mean? Like, why not hold their hand through this awful thing and help them navigate what they can't control? But instead you're like, yeah, sucks for you. That's so cruel.
00:20:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, it is cruel. I think it's i think that it's ah someone who is raising a daughter who is going to have behaviors and life patterns that are going to reflect this dishonesty thing, this hiding thing.
00:21:10
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
this ability to keep secrets or not just the ability, the sanctioned secrets of the family.
00:21:22
Caroline
Yeah.
00:21:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
if that If you're keeping that secret from me, then you're telling me that I can never trust a human being to not be secretive or even subversive about things.
00:21:37
Caroline
yeah
00:21:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I would think that a trust issue is going to be a big quap and deal for Tracy. I don't know, but I'm just trying to understand what's going on here.
00:21:46
Caroline
Well, yeah. And that's a good point. Like lying is a means of seeking control in a situation you cannot control. Just lie about it. Lie about what you know. Lie about like, you know what I mean? That's a good point.
00:21:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
If tells me that I can't have something that they have, even if I just met them and I don't even know what they're talking about, I'm still going to feel like, you know, a lesser human being.
00:22:11
Caroline
Totally.
00:22:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Maybe for a minute or two.
00:22:13
Caroline
Like you're being excluded. Yeah.
00:22:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And then I'm going to leave that premises and not go back.
00:22:19
Caroline
right right yeah yeah
00:22:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But then I'm thinking, well, why did that come out of that person when she met me? Is that me? Is that something about me? I knew I wasn't right. I mean, you know, that self-doubt is just part and parcel of being born a human being.
00:22:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you wrestle with that. Everybody wrestles with that except maybe a narcissist.
00:22:40
Caroline
Well, yeah, I was going to say there are some people who probably would have the opposite, which is to be like, oh, now I'm going to own the company that manufactures those. Let's see if you get one next year. You know what I mean? There are some people like that, too.
00:22:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, so this woman this woman, here I'm talking about Tracy, she grew up with a single parent who became super powerful by knowing something that the daughter needed to know and wanted to know and had a yearning to know um and obtained power over that child by
00:23:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
holding back and not by telling her i'm I'm not going to tell you what you want to know.
00:23:26
Caroline
Right.
00:23:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's an enormous role model for how to get power.
00:23:30
Caroline
Right. Yeah.
00:23:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You would never want to tell somebody everything about yourself.
00:23:37
Caroline
Right, yeah.
00:23:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You would never want to admit to something what you actually schemed up and did.
00:23:42
Caroline
Right, yeah.
00:23:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so I'm just noticing that as I'm meeting this mother
00:23:49
Caroline
Yeah.
00:23:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
in this story, good God, this child could have gone so many different ways. Maybe if they had a mentor, they'd be okay.
00:24:01
Caroline
Right.
00:24:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But we're talking about Soap Lake. So let's talk about that. Tracy says that all of her childhood life, her entire childhood life, she was very attracted to the McNamara's To her, they had a very strong aura of belonging, like when she'd see them in town and she kind of could pick up that they were, you know, big man on campus, you know, big, big, they were the top of the top of the top and they had wealth.
00:24:25
Caroline
Mm.
00:24:33
Caroline
Yeah.
00:24:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Whereas she had neither of those.
00:24:38
Caroline
yeah
00:24:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She did not have a sense of belonging. She did not have wealth. And there were rumors that came later in her life and later still they were confirmed that her biological father was Denny McNamara, the brother of Tim McNamara.
00:25:02
Caroline
Ooh, uh oh.
00:25:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Tracy was a McNamara and yet she was not a McNamara.
00:25:12
Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
How tormenting can you get?
00:25:16
Caroline
Yeah, well, and unfortunately, I actually think that's a really common story throughout the United States and probably England as well. um You know, genetics is kind of highlighting for us some of that, but that would be hard, you know,
00:25:32
Caroline
I'm thinking about the the over sort of fantasization she must have gone through in this community because, you know, it's like, when did she think that? Has she always felt that if she's drawn to this family and then she hears that piece of information? You know, I just, I could see her really overdoing it in her own mind about where she belongs, you know?
00:25:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Mm hmm. You know, when we were living in Richland, Washington, and we could walk right down to the Columbia River and there was a house on a corner that had a high hedge, but it was kind of thin and you could see into the backyard.
00:26:04
Caroline
Yeah.
00:26:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
There were sometimes when I would be walking down to the Columbia River and I'd be walking back home and there would be things going on at that house and they were having big social gatherings and you know anybody living right on the river is you know either wealthy or heavy and dead or something's going on but I didn't have the understanding really to to put it in perspective but but I remember later in my life I used to tell a therapist
00:26:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
about, you know, I used to like stop and sort of watch these people. And now I'm wondering, am I a stalker?
00:26:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:26:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And my therapist told me that's not stalking, that's yearning.
00:26:59
Caroline
Oh, wow.
00:27:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah So that was a, I don't think it's um abnormal. to have yearnings to be like other people as a means of solving your problems.
00:27:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, because Ted and I were very young and we had very young children, of course we had money problems.
00:27:17
Caroline
yeah
00:27:22
Caroline
Oh yeah.
00:27:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
We had all kinds of money problems that sometimes were getting worse and sometimes were getting better.
00:27:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:27:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I i thought in my mind, you know, I'm in my 20s, I'm thinking king or my my early 30s,
00:27:34
Caroline
yeah
00:27:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm thinking that how do you get to this level in your life?
00:27:40
Caroline
Yes. Yes.
00:27:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
that's But that didn't what that wasn't what it felt like. It felt like, why am I standing here you know as a peeping Tom on this backyard?
00:27:50
Caroline
staring at this yeah and i know that's funny i love that word yearning because that feels so right about what you're doing you're there's a touch of admiration there there's a touch of the envy there but it's but it is it has nothing to do with the people you're looking at it's just
00:27:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But it's yearning. It's yearning. Yes.
00:28:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:28:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, no, no, I don't even know who they were. I just knew that they sort of lived in a house that I that i coveted and they were um tall.
00:28:21
Caroline
Yes. Oh, so you're coveting that? Oh God, that's funny.
00:28:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And at that stage of my life, I always used to think to myself, did I take a wrong turn somewhere? Aren't I supposed to be living in a house like this? And so it's all of that.
00:28:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And it's not peeping top.
00:28:44
Caroline
who Yeah, but I...
00:28:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, you know, yeah my motive was not to peep. My motive was yearning. My body just wanted to stay in that space for a couple of minutes.
00:28:50
Caroline
You're yeah.
00:28:54
Caroline
You were making a blueprint for yourself based on this template you were looking at, but I can see now what you're saying.
00:28:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:28:59
Caroline
Like Tracy is really trying to think, where did I go wrong? How do I reattach myself with this? fan I'm I'm sure that was going on for her, too.
00:29:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, that's why I bring up my story is that you, she, I don't know how she felt, but I know that when you are looking for something that's right in front of you and you can feel in your body and your soul and in your heart that it is belongs to you, but you have no access to that.
00:29:11
Caroline
Yeah.
00:29:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:29:28
Caroline
yes yes and yeah
00:29:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's yearning and it can be very debilitating and um, at one point in her life apparently got so bad that she moved when she was an adult to North Carolina just to get away from the torments of Soap Lake. She married there and that marriage was kind of on the rocks and near divorce when our story about the murder in this family kicks in. So She's living in North Carolina and it's around, you know, 2012 and she dramatically received a piece of mail from Soak Lake during this time. And she opened it and it was an invitation to the wedding of Tim McNamara's daughter, Jennifer.
00:30:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Um, and she's just looking at that, knowing a that her father is the brother of Tim McNamara so that would make that her uncle and that would make Jennifer her cousin.
00:30:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
ah So there she is in North Carolina looking at it going, my invitation to belonging this family has arrived.
00:30:44
Caroline
Oh, yeah. Well, also, so I was wondering how she what like, it's interesting to me that she would get an invitation. Is it because the town is small and everyone's kind of like they went through their yearbook or something and they were like, let's invite everybody. Like, I'm just curious how her name got on that list. You know, weddings are exclusive like that sometimes.
00:31:02
Caroline
so
00:31:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know. And I mean, you know, perhaps, uh, Denny McNamara, who this is the name of the father of, um, Tracy Nestle, uh, that Denny McNamara might have said, what about my daughter?
00:31:09
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
00:31:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:31:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He may have reached a time in his life, uh, where, you know, he wanted to acknowledge, or he could have been not there.
00:31:27
Caroline
Yeah, he was willing.
00:31:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know. I don't know.
00:31:31
Caroline
Yeah.
00:31:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, I do know that, you know, she lived in, Tracy lived in Soap Lake, and everybody knew who she was.
00:31:42
Caroline
Well, right. That's what makes me think it
00:31:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She might have not known for her whole life who she was, but she found out who she was.
00:31:48
Caroline
Right.
00:31:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She couldn't handle it and she lived.
00:31:48
Caroline
And small towns are like that. I mean, it's it's not hard, especially in this day and age, it is not hard to keep in touch with all the same people that you went to high school with. So, you know.
00:32:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
All right, so buckle up. We're going to the wedding and ah Tracy accepted. She went back to Soap Lake where she found herself in the presence of Tim McNamara himself. Now if Andy were on the podcast today, he would be getting his guitar out and playing some sort of extremely dramatic music. And like Zeus flinging a lightning bolt, as he is depicted to be doing frequently in Myths and Legends,
00:32:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tim and Tracy were struck with each other. I mean, drama, drama. Tracy had a soon-to-be ex back in North Carolina. Tim was also the nearing the end of his third marriage, so it was Kismet, or maybe it was Kryptonite. It was something. I mean, it's just like you could smell the smoke.
00:33:01
Caroline
Right.
00:33:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, it's just very electric and you can feel it.
00:33:04
Caroline
Yeah.
00:33:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tracy later would describe her meeting with Tim to be that they were instantaneously soulmates recognizing one another.
00:33:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, Tim McNamara was 64. Tracy was 42 on the day that this lightning struck. And they both knew that a romance between them is incest and ill-advised. That's her uncle.
00:33:36
Caroline
So they knew it then. This was all like, this is was one of those out loud, quiet rumors.
00:33:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They knew it. Yes, they knew it. They knew it.
00:33:43
Caroline
Wow.
00:33:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tim was Tracy's uncle and the bru and you know the brother to her father. So in other words, Tim McNamara is the brother of her father.
00:33:57
Caroline
Yeah, that's no bueno. That's just too close.
00:34:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
but But you know, Caroline, who cares, right? and When you're soulmates, this thing is bigger than the both of us.
00:34:05
Caroline
i mean i guess that's why we live on this side no i'm just kidding sorry i don't know love like that but you know what go for it good for you good for them yeah that's a little too much tonic
00:34:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and Another reason I don't go into So Blake, the lake of So Blake, I don't want to know. Yeah, Tracy, um just you know she just fell and he fell or they fell or they're they're fallen in videos of her and Tim at this wedding because of course there are lots of videos about ah Jennifer's wedding.
00:34:36
Caroline
Yes.
00:34:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tracy looks to me to be this sort of beguiling waif you know she's a very tiny individual 42 years old weve kind of tanned ah with a sweet gentle voice and an ethereal presence.
00:35:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She also comes across in interviews I've seen with her as kind of earthly, like earthy, I mean earthy, like
00:35:16
Caroline
Like a hippy chick kind of thing?
00:35:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She's very much into crystals, I'm guessing, or the the horoscopes.
00:35:21
Caroline
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
or She just doesn't buy into the ebb and flow as detectted depicted by society's norms.
00:35:34
Caroline
Yeah. I mean, that makes sense to me because I kind of like to subscribe to stuff like that. But also for her, it makes the most sense based on her. The foundation she has of like, oh, I know who your dad is, but I'm not going to tell you. I mean, that's such a cruel way to live. I would subscribe to much more spiritual things if I were to.
00:35:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, you know, if somebody is your mother and they're not telling you who you really are, then you're going to make up fantasies about who you are. And then you're going to be that fantasy.
00:36:02
Caroline
Totally. Well, and then there's the yearning is going to be in there all the time with everything you do.
00:36:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes, all the time, all the time. She seems kind of a stardust, woo woo, you know, twinkly person at the same time. She is very intelligent, very intelligent. On this day, Tim's daughter's wedding, Tracy glowed,
00:36:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tim blowed. I mean, there's a lot going on that's glowing, but not just glowed, but they were glued to each other like two magnetic souls colliding.
00:36:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
This wedding changed her life dramatically in 2012. This wedding changed Tim's life dramatically in 2012.
00:36:43
Caroline
Wow.
00:36:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, this is like Why hasn't this been on a, well, it wouldn't be on the Harlem Mark channel, but why hasn't this been on, you know, a movie of the week?
00:36:54
Caroline
Lifetime movie network. Yeah, yeah, this is totally a lifetime story right here.
00:36:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:36:58
Caroline
awful
00:37:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Maybe incest is still such a taboo that it's, you know.
00:37:04
Caroline
Yeah, but you know what it made me think of was a Dollhouse in the Attic. What was that, Flowers in the Attic? That book about the, that freaked me out as a kid.
00:37:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yes.
00:37:13
Caroline
And that was my first exposure to having to deal with incest that isn't just clean cut, like wrong.
00:37:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah.
00:37:20
Caroline
It's like this traumatic born event. I mean, it was weird.
00:37:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, one time i when we were living in Arlington, I volunteered to be at the front desk at the new community center there in Arlington, the art center.
00:37:23
Caroline
It's a great book. You should read it.
00:37:35
Caroline
Yeah.
00:37:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I was sitting next to another volunteer who was a guy. And we were after the ticket rush was over with, we just worked chatting. And he told me that he was married to his cousin and that they had been married since they got out of high school.
00:37:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and they just decided not to have children, but they had they built a life together. So, you know, now I've been in a lot of places, I've seen a lot of people just because I'm, you know, old.
00:37:59
Caroline
wow
00:38:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I'm thinking if one person is telling me that, how many of these other people are in relationships that are forbidden by society, but they have found a way around it because you love who you love.
00:38:16
Caroline
Right.
00:38:20
Caroline
That's right. Oh, my gosh, probably so many. You know, honestly, the traditional cookie cut version that we understand as a society is probably actually the exception, not the rule for real about humans.
00:38:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's what some parts of Europe still believe. and you know that that i don't know I'm not an expert on how acceptable incest is, but
00:38:35
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:44
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um It's always been to me something that I didn't understand. I always think of it as some kind of cruel warped ah mental illness of some sort.
00:38:57
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But this story made me kind of go back and think about my experiences over time. That word incest can mean a lot of things.
00:39:03
Caroline
A lot. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
00:39:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It can mean a lot of things. And a fair like no other in Soap Lake hit the residents there as not just violating social norms in that it was literally incestuous, but also because within a few months of these two lovebirds falling in love, Tim changed his will and made it very clear that Tracy was to inherit all of his land, all of his property, all of his money, period, full stop.
00:39:36
Caroline
Uh-oh.
00:39:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, this left Jennifer and Caleb out in the cold. Now, remember that Tim's parents had left him the family orchard to have and to live on and to manage and make his living. It didn't seem right that, to the town, it didn't seem right that it was not treated as a family property and bequeathed to Jennifer and Caleb.
00:40:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And the townspeople were thinking, who are you? We worshiped you for many years and you were the top of the heap because you were a second generation or third generation apple orchardist.
00:40:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What is wrong with you that you are now throwing it at this, you know, woman? What's the matter with you? But Tim was afraid that Jennifer and Caleb would sell the orchard.
00:40:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So he put Tracy in as his sole beneficiary and he wrote it in his will that he knew that she would keep it in the family. Oh my Lord, have mercy.
00:40:41
Caroline
the Well, yeah.
00:40:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
To me, are you sure you're not thinking with the wrong part of your anatomy? I don't know. I don't know. So, now we're going to talk about the death.
00:40:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um know i call i would I look at this as is very Shakespearean, as exile and death, because that's what were that's what this is about.
00:40:57
Caroline
Hmm, oh yeah.
00:41:04
Caroline
yeah
00:41:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Soap Lake was not having it. You are a piece of trash to us, Tim McNamara. I take back all those times I wanted to be you. I just take that back. I didn't know the real you. Look at you. I mean, shame on you, Tim McNamara. So the Tim McNamara Tracy Nestle magical love co-ownership cohabitation at McNamara orchard relationship faced significant disapproval from the community and their family due to their familial ties.
00:41:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I mean, an uncle having sex with his niece is incest. By 2013, this disapproval led the pair to leave Soap Lake and start anew, far away, in Belize.
Exile to Belize and New Challenges
00:41:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So Tim would manage the orchard from afar now. So he still had his employees and things like that. So Tim and Tracy moved to Belize in Central America, where they started a bed and breakfast on a 50 acre farm they purchased.
00:42:09
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So this is classic, we can start all over again.
00:42:12
Caroline
Yeah, it sounds kind of exotic.
00:42:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's just classic. Yes, the two even tied the knot there and stepped into another phase of their relationship. They were husband and wife, but only in Belize.
00:42:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
After two years, after they got together, things were not working out for this duo and their money was running out. Belize was beset with issues for them and they were in deep trouble, not just financially, but with local authorities too. They'd done things like bulldozing part of the property that was not allowed to be bulldozed. And it was illegal to do that. And they, they,
00:42:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They didn't even get all the proper permits to everything that they were doing. And strangers were wandering frequently onto the property and everybody else's too, as well as stray dogs and such. something They did not think this through 101.
00:43:09
Caroline
They hadn't prepared that plot before they bought it. They just thought they could.
00:43:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, they they thought that they were magical.
00:43:14
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:15
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They weren't magical. I'm surprised they went on to a plane. Why didn't they just you know leap off a building and fly over there? That's where I think they're at.
00:43:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They're so far. and they couldn't They couldn't believe it that they were disowned by Soap Lake. Now, she never was owned by so snow by Soap Lake, but he was.
00:43:35
Caroline
yeah
00:43:39
Caroline
Yeah. But I mean, if I was a member of Soap Lake, like, regardless of how I felt about incest, all the other all the other elements that I'm sure a community goes wild over all the tea. But for me, it's like, I just kind of feel like Why did you do all those changes financially? You spent decades of your life, you built this family, I don't really care how many wives you had. Why did you ostracize your children from your legacy? That is weird. That's called the red flag. And Tracy, you're the only thing that's new in the life to create such a red flag. Like, you know what I mean? I would feel better if Tracy had said, nah, don't do that. I'm fine with being whatever you would have put your wife in as, but your kids should still be your beneficiary. Then there would be no reason to really hate.
00:44:24
Caroline
but I would have run her out of town too if she's like stealing because she sounds she looks like a like almost like a black widow or a gold digger you know where she's just in it to take all his stuff and I I could see it yes yes right
00:44:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
highly manipulative. She may not have any boundaries. And she, um how do I put it nicely? I'll put it the way a mentor of mine, Charlie Dibble, he's passed away now, but we were he I worked with unions and we were in union negotiations and there was one person on the a union negotiating table across from us who was representing the union that was married to um another person in the union. ah And it when it was just, it was, it was infiltrating our negotiations. And the bottom line is when we were talking about it, he said, Bridget, because I was being very judgmental. You know, you're not supposed to fish off the company pier. You're not supposed stick to, you know,
00:45:32
Caroline
You had all your zingers ready.
00:45:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's a separation. I had all my little, you know, ah
00:45:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
what's the word, the rules of how things are supposed to go according to me.
00:45:44
Caroline
Yeah, right right right.
00:45:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Charlie Dibble looked at me and after a long time, he said, Bridget, there's no loyalty greater than between the sheets.
00:45:56
Caroline
Ooh, that's true!
00:45:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And that was a lesson that I needed to learn.
00:46:02
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And because I was still coloring with, but you know, within the lines, I was, you know, trying to learn how to be a leader in my field.
00:46:07
Caroline
Right.
00:46:11
Caroline
Ye- yeah. Yeah.
00:46:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he taught me right quick that don't, don't be trifling with human nature and act like you can regulate it.
00:46:16
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:22
Caroline
Boom, there it is. We're all still human. That's what, I mean, we're all, so you can't actually know.
00:46:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That's what I took from that. So you got, here it is and you better learn how to work around it. So anyway,
00:46:31
Caroline
That's right.
00:46:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So they moved to Belize and they were not happy and things were not going well and they were running out of money. And worse than that, back home in Soak Lake, one of Tim's granddaughters was now accusing Tim of having molested her when she was young.
Tim's Downfall and Community Backlash
00:46:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, okay, everybody in Tim's life hates him now.
00:46:55
Caroline
Hmm.
00:46:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And so is this real or not real?
00:46:58
Caroline
I don't know.
00:46:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know.
00:47:00
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He staunchly denied it and he was trying to get his children to back him up. And on Christmas Eve, he reached out to his son and he told his son via text, I always loved being your dad.
00:47:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, if I'm somebody's kid, adult child, and I got a text, I want you to know, I always loved being your mom um or being your dad.
00:47:21
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:27
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Is that a last will and testament? I mean, is that a goodbye note?
00:47:35
Caroline
I know it, right?
00:47:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What is that?
00:47:36
Caroline
Like it sounds funky. Also to me it's a little bit self-centered.
00:47:43
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Manipulative?
00:47:44
Caroline
Are you sure you don't want to say something like, I really always loved having you as my son?
00:47:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I always loved having you as my loyal son.
00:47:52
Caroline
Like, he's just all about him as a dad. I don't know. That's just me, obviously, having walked through the story.
00:47:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh yeah, Caroline, you get, bells are ringing here, you know, that's, I've got the ring of truth that you're right, that he.
00:48:01
Caroline
you i mean He's all about me. Like, look, don't you miss how wonderful I was to you?
00:48:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Yeah, I mean, you know, the whole nine yards, everybody hates Tim. Everybody hates Tracy, but they hate Tim more.
00:48:15
Caroline
More, yeah.
00:48:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's a bigger threat to people in a small town that the loftiest of lofty people could, break out of societal norms and do what they wanted because that means that my husband could do that.
00:48:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:48:33
Caroline
Right. Well, yeah, he but he betrayed the whole town.
00:48:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
That means that, yeah.
00:48:36
Caroline
So like I could see them being more mad at him than her.
00:48:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh yeah, oh yeah. So, you know, but he did leave this note and so that's gonna become important. On Christmas Day, 2014, according to Tracy,
00:48:53
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tim went onto the porch with his gun to fire into the air and scare off you know this or that trespasser. He heard something out there.
00:49:02
Caroline
yeah
00:49:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And he wanted to go, ticket some this is what he did to get rid of dogs. This is what he did to get rid of other wild animals. This is what he did to fend off looky-loos and so forth and so on.
00:49:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tracy heard one shot. She didn't think much of it, but later she went out to look for him, be with him, and discovered him lying face up on the ground with a shotgun wound to the back of his head.
00:49:18
Caroline
Yeah. Hmm.
00:49:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And this is where the notes like I've always loved being your dad. This man was losing money, hand over fist. He was going to have to go back to the States, obviously.
00:49:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:49:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They both were. How are they going to live in Soap Lake? And now his granddaughter is accusing him of things that he did or didn't do.
00:49:46
Caroline
Yeah.
00:49:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, and and so he might be at a low, he's 66 years old and he may just be thinking, you know, to hell with it.
00:49:51
Caroline
Yeah.
00:49:55
Caroline
Right.
00:49:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm going to teach these people a lesson. I'm going to kill myself and Tracy's going to own everything.
00:50:00
Caroline
Right, maybe.
00:50:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Or, or so, uh, Tracy has discovered him lying face face up. Uh, she claims she did not know what to do.
00:50:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So she she just laid down next to him. being the twinkly one that she is, and it was raining very hard. She was a bit frozen. She finally went to neighbors to get some help. Till the time the police arrived, she claimed that she spooned her husband and had a blanket over the both of them to keep them warm.
00:50:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She told the authorities that Tim had heard barking dogs and went outside with his handgun to investigate. And according to her account, she heard a gunshot and found him dying when she went to check. The initial police theory was suicide. But by January 2015, the nature and location of the wound led them to rule the death as a homicide. So a few days after Tim's murder,
00:51:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tracy Nestle claimed the investigating police officer had asked her for money, alleging that the officer said that her husband owed her. So she's she's telling people, you know, this police officer tried to extort me.
00:51:23
Caroline
Seriously?
00:51:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
when she This is what she said, and I don't know if it's true or not. The officer later denied these allegations, which could never be substantiated. Why? Because you know the man that that took the money from the officer and owed the money to the officer is dead.
00:51:40
Caroline
yeah
00:51:40
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So on May 26, 2015, the police police issued an arrest warrant for Tracy, which was, now remember, he died on Christmas Day.
00:51:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And now in May, the police issued an arrest warrant for Tracy. And they did that by circulating it through the International Criminal Police Organization.
00:52:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I guess this is how you get other countries to extradite somebody back to your country.
00:52:14
Caroline
It's like Interpol for Europe. I think it's like these international agencies.
00:52:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Interpol. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Anyway. ah However, by May, Tracy had returned long ago to Soap Lake, Washington, and she had begun living on her orchard, her husband's orchard, but her everybody thinks it's his orchard, but no, it's hers,
00:52:38
Caroline
I mean, by the law, it would be if he's passed away, so.
00:52:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it's hers
00:52:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
it's hers. It's her, illegally, it is now her orchard.
00:52:44
Caroline
Mm-hmm.
00:52:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In September 2015, Tim's children filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Tracy.
Legal Battles and Family Accusations
00:52:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They alleged that shortly after Tim and Tracy began their relationship, he had transferred millions of dollars in cash and insurance and real estate to her. By December 2013, when they married in Belize, Tim had allegedly transferred all of his estates, all of his assets, all of everything, including the apple orchard, their new B and B property in Belize that was going belly up
00:53:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and paid off all her loans.
00:53:25
Caroline
See, she's black widow. That's some short order right there. We're like barely a year in.
00:53:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
yeah Despite losing contact with their father after his relationship with Tracy began, his son Caleb claimed that they had resumed email communication by December 2014. So maybe the communication with the son about I'm not guilty of this, you know, molestation charge.
00:53:51
Caroline
Oh yeah.
00:53:52
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And this is just, you know, people are just trying to destroy me because they think I haven't lived up to my, you know, legend.
00:53:52
Caroline
Yeah.
00:54:03
Caroline
right
00:54:03
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And Caleb alleged that his father had confided in him about financial difficulties and some growing doubts. regarding his decision to transfer all of his assets to Tracy.
00:54:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Now, okay, which this let's just take a look at this. Is this Tim needing allies in the family to fight off this molestation charge?
00:54:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And right at this point, this charge is not a legal charge.
00:54:36
Caroline
Right.
00:54:37
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
It's just an accusation.
00:54:39
Caroline
Right.
00:54:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, has the community gotten into such a frenzy that now we're going to make things up?
00:54:48
Caroline
Right.
00:54:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Or we're going to have false memories about what he did to me?
00:54:52
Caroline
ride
00:54:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Or it really happened?
00:54:55
Caroline
or it really happened and things are going to get even worse. I mean, it's already a whack a do story. I'm not willing to say that because there's incest or whatever that that's. But I mean, obviously there's some dysfunction on a level that's above your average.
00:55:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I am.
00:55:10
Caroline
I mean.
00:55:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, I think that what we, I mean, for me, boundaries come to mind.
00:55:17
Caroline
Mm hmm.
00:55:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And if somebody thinks that they are entitled to marry their niece, who is 22 years younger than I am, obviously a vulnerable person because she grew up not knowing, knowing, not knowing, knowing, not knowing, knowing, I mean, you know,
00:55:26
Caroline
Yeah. Right.
00:55:41
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Does he have some boundary issues that maybe he did cross way back in the day?
00:55:45
Caroline
Yeah. Mm hmm.
00:55:48
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So anyway, Caleb is trying to, you know, sort of believe his father is having doubts about Tracy, or is this just a way to get Caleb to be on his side about the molestation charge?
00:56:01
Caroline
Right.
00:56:01
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know. In response to the civil lawsuit and the claims made by the prosecuting party's legal team, Tracy filed a defamation lawsuit, which was initially dismissed, but later upheld on appeal.
00:56:14
Caroline
Hmm.
00:56:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So there's just litigation, litigation, litigation, litigation flying.
00:56:21
Caroline
Yeah.
00:56:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tim's family further claimed that Tracy purchased a Glock handgun from cal North Carolina dealer, her home state of North Carolina, not her birth home, but her That's where she traveled from to go to this wedding, the now infamous wedding.
00:56:36
Caroline
yeah Yeah, that's weird.
00:56:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And had it shipped, she had it shipped from North Carolina to Belize in October, 2014. Now, why would she do that? They alleged that Tracy killed Tim shortly before his insurance policy expired, seeking to gain financial financially from his death.
00:56:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I mean, they had some evidence that they were pursuing against him in a civil case. And you know it Tracy was not going to be ah prosecuted in the United States of America because it didn't happen here.
00:57:12
Caroline
Yeah, there's no jurisdiction.
00:57:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No.
00:57:14
Caroline
Yeah.
00:57:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
If she goes back to Belize, she's probably going to be arrested. But the United States, for whatever reason, has decided not to extradite her back to Belize, probably because the evidence is so thin.
00:57:27
Caroline
Yeah, it's not it. I mean, obviously there's enough.
00:57:29
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
and
00:57:31
Caroline
It's just not worth the resources that it takes to enact that sort of extradition process.
00:57:35
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I guess, yeah.
00:57:36
Caroline
It's just not worth it.
00:57:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She still has that looming over her head, but Belize is looking for you.
00:57:41
Caroline
Yeah.
00:57:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The civil lawsuit against Tracy Nestle, initially scheduled for 2020, was postponed because of COVID and it was postponed to 2022.
00:57:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So that was just yesterday almost. At the trial, a grand jury found Tracy liable for Tim's death. She was ordered to, now this is civil liability.
00:58:05
Caroline
I know. I do appreciate that this is available, though, that you always have a civil side, no matter what your criminal side shakes out as.
00:58:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh yeah, this is like ah Goldman's parents, the O.J.
00:58:13
Caroline
So.
00:58:17
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Simpson victim that they never could get the guilt.
00:58:18
Caroline
Yes. Yes.
00:58:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, he was acquitted. of both of the murders and yet um the family was able to win in a civil court. And now since OJ recently died, I think that this is when they're gonna get something.
00:58:37
Caroline
Yes, and I cannot wait that is a family that deserves it, but anyway You do and you know, yeah, anyway I could go off for hours on that but
00:58:42
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I think so. um it's not It's not the money you're after, but you need the money to get the justice.
00:58:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, I mean, you know, Tim allegedly transferred all of his everything to Tracy, everything, everything, everything, and all the money problems that they're having, and now they're in trouble with the government of Belize, and now he's, you know, being accused of, I mean, you know, the world was caving in on Tim.
00:59:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Did he kill himself or did she shoot him?
00:59:17
Caroline
Yeah.
00:59:19
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, according to the civil case, she shot him. And she's liable for his death. She was ordered to pay 3.3 million in damages, 725,000 to each of Tim's children.
00:59:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, that seems like not enough.
00:59:34
Caroline
and I know, but.
00:59:36
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
1.8 million to in additional damages and 77,000 as economic damages to the estate.
00:59:41
Caroline
Hmm.
00:59:45
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The civil case was only just recently completed. By that I mean, that money changed hands.
00:59:53
Caroline
Oh wow, okay.
00:59:54
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I guess that ah included an appeal as well.
00:59:59
Caroline
Yeah.
00:59:59
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And it's a now a standing verdict against her for criminal damage three and a half million dollars payable to Jennifer and Caleb.
01:00:02
Caroline
Wow.
01:00:07
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Just a reminder this is a civil judgment not a criminal conviction. So the killer of Tim McNamara has been brought only to the bar of civil liability.
01:00:15
Caroline
Yeah.
01:00:16
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So, you know, i do I think it's a family murder? Even if she didn't shoot him, I do.
01:00:22
Caroline
Yeah. Well, yeah. All the ins and outs that got him there, you know?
01:00:24
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, I don't blame her for what he did.
01:00:29
Caroline
Yeah.
01:00:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I blame him for what he did.
01:00:32
Caroline
Yeah.
01:00:33
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
But it takes a special kind of person to know instantly what a person needs and then give it to them.
01:00:44
Caroline
Yeah. That's true.
01:00:46
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And I think that Tim McNamara was looking for that magical thinking. I can start my life over.
01:00:56
Caroline
Yeah.
01:00:56
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I'm 64. This is when the affair started and the love affair and the changing of the will and all of that. Even at 66, he was probably thinking, well, you can't go home again.
01:01:10
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You can't restart.
01:01:12
Caroline
Yeah.
01:01:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He had never lived anywhere else in his whole life. And he thought that he was going to be going to believe and be a big man on campus there.
01:01:20
Caroline
Yeah, no. It's totally different, yeah.
01:01:22
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
No, no. I don't know who's at the top of the heap in Belize, but it's not him.
01:01:28
Caroline
Mm-hmm, no. no
01:01:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So I feel sad that he was delusional about all all of this.
01:01:33
Caroline
Yeah.
01:01:36
Caroline
That's true.
01:01:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Caroline, I just want to mention one thing that to me is another big tale. It came to light through all of this that Tracy visited Soap Lake often while she was living as a married woman in North Carolina to carry on a secret love affair with none other than Caleb McNamara.
The Caleb Connection and Further Scandal
01:02:02
Caroline
Oh, so that's prior to the wedding.
01:02:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, yes.
01:02:07
Caroline
Oh,
01:02:08
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
In fact, it might've been Caleb that invited her to the wedding.
01:02:11
Caroline
oh I bet it was. Oh, o he was probably so pissed when she started getting all up on his dad. Oh my gosh, that's a bombshell right there.
01:02:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Ah, he yes. After Tim was shot, Caleb was the first person to fly into Soap Lake when Tracy called him.
01:02:20
Caroline
i time
01:02:28
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Of course you're gonna call him.
01:02:29
Caroline
my
01:02:30
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He's your backup dude, yeah. Hearing that his father was dead, he hopped on the soonest flight and went to Belize. Where do you think he stayed?
01:02:39
Caroline
Stop it.
01:02:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He stayed at the bed and breakfast home where Tracy resided. She admitted on camera in an interview that she they showered and they slept together.
01:02:49
Caroline
Okay, my mind is just blown and I am curious why there's not a movie to this story like.
01:02:55
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, the the one of the best interviews is on crime True Crime Daily. And True Crime Daily interviewer said to her, so let me get this straight.
01:03:01
Caroline
yeah
01:03:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You married your uncle and you had an affair with your cousin. And now that you're married to your uncle, this would be your stepchild?
01:03:20
Caroline
Oh, I hadn't even gone that far yet. Oh oh my gosh. Crazy.
01:03:27
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
The next day after he arrived to sleep and shower with Tracy, tracy Caleb made an identification of his father's body and talked with police.
01:03:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He came back from that trip warning Tracy that police officials might come after her and that she needed to go home to say late right away. Well, he just slept with her.
01:03:47
Caroline
So now,
01:03:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Of course, he wants her in Soap Lake.
01:03:49
Caroline
Oh my gosh. Wow.
01:03:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So here we see that Tracy has married her uncle and had an affair with her second cousin and a relapse of that affair when she was now not only a second cousin to Caleb, but also his stepmother.
01:04:05
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
To me, that kind of sign, that kind of sums up how boundary free her thinking is.
01:04:11
Caroline
Oh. Totally. And now I really know what you meant by Shakespearean when you said that earlier, because holy cow, this is crazy.
01:04:21
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You know, I mean, I get it when you say, well, he's a free thinker. And I always think that means that like you're a scientist and you're not going to just buy into what everybody is saying.
01:04:29
Caroline
Yeah.
01:04:34
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're going to look further and see if maybe this or that is true scientifically.
01:04:39
Caroline
yeah
01:04:39
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Okay. That's my idea of a Bridget approved free thinker.
01:04:44
Caroline
Right, right, right, right.
01:04:47
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
What's going on here is right up there with what her mother did to her.
01:04:52
Caroline
Well, yeah, there you go. She right. And that's a good point. Actually, her only notion around boundaries for these kind of relation.
01:05:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And truth, what is truth?
01:05:02
Caroline
Yeah, is nobody deserves to know anyway. I get to keep whatever secrets I want to. and None of it, Matt, i like, oh, my gosh, this is crazy.
01:05:12
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Tracy Nestle remains in Soap Lake running her orchard and maybe what's left of her orchard. I don't know how they wound up with the money. Remember, she won a lawsuit or she, she, she won a lawsuit of defamation.
01:05:26
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
They won a lawsuit of murder and who's got what kind of money?
01:05:28
Caroline
Wrong with that. Okay.
01:05:31
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know.
01:05:32
Caroline
Here.
01:05:32
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
She's still there. She has not been extradited by Belize authorities as yet, despite the arrest warrant issued in Belize. Tracy has argued that Tim was suffering from mental health issues and questioned the forensic report that deemed his death a homicide.
01:05:49
Caroline
Well, obviously.
01:05:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Well, yeah, of course. Tracy has continuously stated her commitment to maintaining the orchard as she promised him.
01:06:00
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So let me get this straight, Tracy. You're going to finally do something that is keep a promise oriented.
01:06:10
Caroline
right well and i gotta say i just hope that in her will she gives it back to tim's kids like give it back to tim's family you don't have any who do you have you know it'll
01:06:20
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
I don't know who she's got, but something tells me that I see the root of this family murder going all the way back to Tracy Nestle's mother and her
01:06:24
Caroline
be caleb sorry sorry
01:06:47
Caroline
Hmm.
01:06:50
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
a relationship with Denny McNamara.
01:06:54
Caroline
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
01:06:57
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And you know, there's nothing that I could find that gives any biographical information about Denny. I don't know if he's alive or dead.
01:07:06
Caroline
ah Oh, OK.
01:07:06
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
He doesn't show up at the, you know, he wasn't at the wedding, I don't think.
01:07:11
Caroline
Like, where did he go after that?
01:07:13
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Where did he go?
01:07:14
Caroline
Well, and I want to know if anyone's done any ancestry 23andMe. I mean, blow this story up, y'all. Start spitting in some tubes.
01:07:23
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Listen, you know those you know those so videos that you can watch where they give a chimpanzees, you know, ah paintbrush and and then they get to draw what they want to draw and then they sell the painting to cover the food.
01:07:34
Caroline
Yeah. Oh yeah, mostly with elephants, but yeah.
01:07:38
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh yeah, elephants do it, chimpanzees do it. Okay, so if you were to draw a family tree of this whole thing in ancestry,
01:07:46
Caroline
m
01:07:49
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
you know, 23andMe, all of that.
01:07:51
Caroline
Yeah.
01:07:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
You're looking at a picture of a lot of squiggly lines kind of crossing each other.
01:07:55
Caroline
Little crossovers. Yeah.
01:07:58
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
And, you know, you're going to get a report back that from, you know, 23andMe that says we give up.
01:08:04
Caroline
Yeah, like you're you're your new ancestor.
01:08:04
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
um We just don't know.
01:08:11
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Congratulations.
01:08:13
Caroline
We've connected you to you again.
01:08:14
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Oh, my Lord.
01:08:17
Caroline
yeah Anyway.
01:08:18
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
So um we'll just wrap it up that today's episode is researched, written and narrated by Bridget and Caroline, produced by Andy. Our research is solely based on public domain documents, including legal documents, articles, and books about our subject. Episodes are aired every other week. If you like us, please subscribe and give us a five-star review. Tell your friends about us in person and by social media. All of these actions help new listeners find us.
01:08:51
Andy, Bridget and Caroline
Happy holidays, everybody. Thank you so much. We appreciate our listeners a great deal. And one other thing, don't forget to live and let live. Bye-bye, Caroline.
01:09:06
Caroline
but Bye-bye.