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The Murder of Shirley Carter
68 Plays6 months ago
A son murders his mother...or did he? Justice was served thanks to the father and the killer's brother...or was it. A confounding family murder is a conundrum to consider, and a fascinating story.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Hearth, Home and Homicide'
00:00:01
bclawson
Hello listeners, you are listening to Hearth, Home and Homicide, a family production about family murders. Are you curious about family murders? You've come to the right place. I'm Bridget.
00:00:14
Caroline
I'm Caroline
00:00:17
bclawson
Caroline and I narrate each story. Andy is our producer. As Caroline and I talk about each family murder, we're not only keen on watching justice unfold for the killer, whatever that may look like.
00:00:30
bclawson
We are sensitive to the victims, the victims of the crime. The ripple effect of family murders never ends for the victims. So Caroline, today we're going to be talking about a strange one.
Challenging Notions of the American Family
00:00:47
bclawson
ah Strange family murder because it's not clean cut on the judicial side and it's just So just strange and I love it because it's so strange and it has busted a lot of my preconceived notions about Norman Rockwell version of America families, you know.
00:01:09
Caroline
Yes. Yep.
00:01:11
bclawson
So are you ready?
00:01:13
Caroline
I'm ready.
00:01:13
bclawson
but We're going to Iowa. I know a small town about 35 miles from Des Moines. It's farming all the way. A close community of generational farmers for the most part.
00:01:27
bclawson
We're talking about the murder of Shirley Carter by her son, Jason, or or maybe not Jason, but yeah, Jason. Jason was found guilty in a civil trial, but found not guilty in a criminal trial for murdering his mother. So it's a mixed bag. And the civil trial winnings went to the ones who brought the trial forward, none other than Jason's brother,
00:01:56
bclawson
Bill Jr. and his father, Bill Sr. So, oh my God, we have a son who's being brought into civil court for the murder of his mother, the other boy's mother who's coming into court, and the father who, I mean, you know, it's very Shakespearean.
Life of Shirley and Bill Carter in Iowa
00:02:14
bclawson
I already see that this is a family that is pointing their finger at one another for the murder of the matriarch.
00:02:14
Caroline
yeah
00:02:22
bclawson
It's a very perplexing Case and it's worth delving into. So here we go. We're going to talk about, first of all, Bill and Shirley. Bill and Shirley were both living in the town of about 600 souls and went to the homecoming dance together. And after that, they got married. Shirley was 16 and Bill was 17. Bill graduated from high school and about that time, Shirley became pregnant with their first child.
00:02:56
bclawson
She dropped out of high school and she never went back. They moved into their home on Perry Street where they lived and farmed about a thousand acres of prime Iowa farmland for 50 years. That is 5-0 years, 50 years. They raised row crops like corn and beans, stuff like that. And they also grew hay. So you got a thousand acres of farming to do you just have to work around the clock and They loved it both of them ah Bill and Shirley just loved it.
00:03:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:03:31
Caroline
I actually feel like I would like it too if I understood anything about land management because frank frankly, one acre feels overwhelming to me.
00:03:34
bclawson
Yeah
00:03:42
Caroline
But I mean, when you know what you're doing, I imagine farming is quite fun.
00:03:47
bclawson
but you know whenever i thought about having a farm ah thought about really having a Of course, it would be more like Green Acres sitcom back in the 1970s.
00:03:55
Caroline
Yeah.
00:03:57
bclawson
But ah I would bring in the county extension officer to teach me how to farm, and they will do that.
00:04:06
Caroline
Really? Okay. Cause that's, I've thought about doing that and I, and I don't mean to say fun.
00:04:07
bclawson
Oh, yeah.
00:04:10
Caroline
Like I don't understand that this is serious hard work and that people actually lose limbs in life farming. I do get that, but there's something about working with the land. There's something about having a vision about the land.
00:04:22
Caroline
There's something about conforming that and seeing your vision come to fruition. That's what I mean when I say farming seems like it would be fun, you know, spiritually enriching.
00:04:32
bclawson
Well, I find gardening and on the level that I do it very, very fun. It's a lot of work for me and it keeps me healthy. I'm 70 years old in a couple months, few months, and and I'm feeling you know motivated.
00:04:47
bclawson
This time of year in the fall is when I start dreaming about the spring and everything that I do in the fall just is about that.
00:04:53
Caroline
Yeah.
00:04:55
bclawson
So I'm constantly gardening even when there's snow out there.
00:04:58
Caroline
yeah
00:04:59
bclawson
So anyway, they're growing. you know, row crops and hay. Their first child was Jenna. The next was Billie Dean and the youngest was Jason. So first a girl, then two boys. Jenna and Billie Dean would eventually strike out on their own when they became adults and they would not become farmers like their dad and their mom. And surely now, you know, there are these people who marry farmers and they are farmer's wives and they have certain
Family Dynamics and Farming Challenges
00:05:31
bclawson
things that they do and not do. And then there are people like Shirley. Shirley was a farmer's wife, but she was also a farmer and very proud of it.
00:05:43
bclawson
So she was Bill's partner in the farming, not just the farmer's wife. And um probably if they, if she was more inclined to be the farmer's wife, they might've had more kids so that they can have more help on the farm.
00:05:59
Caroline
Right.
00:06:01
bclawson
I don't know. But anyway, she was a strong, strong woman who was tied to the land. By 2014, Bill Shirley was wanting to slow down.
00:06:11
bclawson
You know, by 2014, he was, ah you know, like in his 60s. And so was Shirley.
00:06:18
Caroline
yeah
00:06:19
bclawson
Shirley was not ready to slow down. ah This was a dynamic that I think many families face, whether they're farmers or whatever they are.
00:06:29
bclawson
It's a future without the kids anymore.
00:06:32
Caroline
Yeah, the slow down. How do you dial up? And then suddenly you just wake up and you think, OK, well, how do we start dialing down? I mean, that's it's a weird place for us all.
00:06:41
bclawson
It's very weird and you know, raising children or a child for that matter, any number of children is a compelling task that is 24 seven and it absolutely consumes your life.
00:06:57
bclawson
um if And you work around it to make a living.
00:07:01
Caroline
Yep.
00:07:02
bclawson
ah But, you know, you're you're really trying to build a human.
00:07:07
Caroline
Yep.
00:07:07
bclawson
And that happens over many years. And when that is just, boom, gone, ah it's kind of interesting for a married couple to figure out what direction to take the next chapter of their life.
00:07:11
Caroline
yeah
00:07:23
bclawson
That doesn't mean that they have to do the same thing that the other one is doing, but just, you know, what is our future look like? We, yeah, I mean, what does our future look like?
00:07:29
Caroline
Right.
00:07:32
bclawson
So that's where they were at in 2014. Jason had become a farmer. He wanted to be a farmer and he married a woman named Shelly who was all in as a farmer and as a farmer's wife.
00:07:43
bclawson
So it's sort of the pattern that his parents had. But Jason did not own any land, you know, and a lot had changed when, when Shirley and Bill were um first met and married, land prices were not what they were in 2014.
00:08:02
bclawson
So there was a big difference there.
00:08:03
Caroline
Yeah.
00:08:04
bclawson
He did he rented his land and he farm and he rented the house on the land and he farmed and the profit margins were tight.
00:08:15
bclawson
Shirley and Bill, Jason's parents did help him by the equipment needed to get going on his farming career. And, you know, Bill has been quoted as saying on some interviews that I have seen, this is Bill Sr., that he always thought that Jason would start farming with him.
00:08:35
Caroline
Oh yeah.
00:08:35
bclawson
And I think that this had an element into what has happened and what we're about to talk about. So they helped him buy equipment and stuff. And in 2014, Bill offered Jason to ah the chance to buy some of his land.
00:08:51
bclawson
Now, on this particular part of the farm, Bill had faced what all Iowa farmers face when growing row crops, and that is that deer, I don't mean one or two, I mean the deer population, eats a lot of the corn or whatever you're growing around the fringes of the field. Jason rejected this idea of selling that parcel to him, and this caused a lot of friction between him and Bill.
00:09:22
bclawson
and Shirley. Bill and Shirley felt that Jason showed a lack of character. He was selfish for wanting a primo part of his parent's farm to buy or none at all.
00:09:37
Caroline
Well, I mean, I would tend to agree with his parents, like, unless you got a parcel and something specific to do with it, meaning I need, you know, a place where I can grow an irrigation ditch because I want to grow rice or like, I don't know how farming works, I don't know how to grow things. But, you know, unless that's the case, why would you reject your first plot? If nothing else, you can build the plot up, resell it to somebody else or sell it back to your dad or Whatever, it's an opera opportunity is what they offered you.
00:10:05
Caroline
They didn't offer you a golden spoon, nor should they. anyway there' so I'll get off my soapbox.
00:10:10
bclawson
He certainly was not entitled to any of these things. He was not entitled to the equipment purchase.
00:10:15
Caroline
Exactly.
00:10:17
bclawson
So I agree with you and I agree with Bill.
00:10:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:10:21
bclawson
And I think it probably hurt him because remember his dream was that Jason would be the one to farm with him.
00:10:27
Caroline
Well, yeah, I knew I don't know. I was the same way in my family. Like, as you know, you were there. But for me, it was a was very much more a.
00:10:33
bclawson
but
00:10:38
Caroline
like barter system meaning you know you're you're putting in sweat equity why why make it about money like it was just never gonna be about money for me if i had a parcel of land and you needed one i was giving that to you i mean that's why i think the universe doesn't give me parcels of land but i that's the way that i am it's a little altruistic so it's sad to see a dad a father and son a father who just wanted to work with their child as part of the family dynamic and the child all only wants to be part of the capitalist part of it.
00:11:09
Caroline
You know, that's kind of sad.
00:11:10
bclawson
Yeah, he he does he Jason comes across even at this early juncture in our story as entitled.
00:11:18
Caroline
Yeah.
00:11:19
bclawson
However, Bill always thought that Jason would help him on his land and eventually farm it alone since he alone was the sole beneficiary of their land and the house and the equipment, which was worth well over $4 million dollars at the time of 2014.
00:11:37
Caroline
wow.
00:11:40
bclawson
I mean, Shirley and Bill were going to die someday. And I personally believe that Bill and Shirley, but especially Bill, was not liking the fact that the other two kids moved away from the farm.
00:11:50
Caroline
Yeah.
00:11:51
bclawson
They didn't want to farm. So Jason was like my last chance. I'm thinking like, bill this is my last chance.
00:11:58
Caroline
yeah Yeah.
00:12:00
bclawson
Jason knew he was the sole heir. And perhaps Bill and Shirley felt as if Jason would eventually agree to take over some of the farm work while his parents aged in place, but that wasn't happening either because he was busy with his rented ah life.
00:12:17
Caroline
That's so weird. i I wish we knew more about why the distance, why the separation. I can see it from a child's perspective wanting to break free of your parents and earn something without anyone else's help. I get that.
00:12:33
Caroline
But farming in 2014, and you touched on this and you'll probably touch on it more, not real profitable business anymore. Being a farmer in America is a subsidized life and you do have to love it for the love of the land.
00:12:45
Caroline
You're never going to, I mean, $4 million. dollars That's a great thing to sell at the end. But like, you're not making that kind of money every year as a family who's farming, right?
00:12:54
bclawson
Oh no, sometimes you go belly up.
00:12:57
Caroline
That's what I'm saying. So it's, it's odd.
00:12:59
bclawson
So, you know, I feel sad for a Bill and his wife, Shirley, but I i um ah don't know that, I don't ah feel sad for them, but maybe they contributed, they usually we are all architects of our own present.
00:13:03
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:23
Caroline
Yeah.
00:13:23
bclawson
And we can look back on things that we've done to see the steps that we took to be where we are right now.
00:13:30
Caroline
Yes.
00:13:31
bclawson
And sometimes that's a wonderful feeling of accomplishment and planning. And you're just proud of yourself. And sometimes it is a soul crushing disappointment.
00:13:43
bclawson
And it may be that there was a lot of pressure on Jason to not be himself, to be the extension of, so to speak, or kind even controlled by his father and his mother, who were both farmers.
00:13:50
Caroline
oh Yeah.
00:13:56
Caroline
yeah
00:14:01
bclawson
I mean, I don't know, I wasn't there, but I mean, I can see how that might happen.
00:14:06
Caroline
Yeah, I can see that too. I just, it's telling to me that there's a desire from Jason to break away in, and not in a sense of like, I want to do it on my own, but in a way that's like, get away from me. And then Bill's overwhelming desire to force his kids to be the, the beneficial, you know, to take on this thing that he's done his whole life. Like there's something else there. I feel like.
00:14:32
bclawson
Yeah, you know, I remember and our listeners may recall also the case of Dean Milo and how he changed the family business in his own ways and his family turned against him and murdered him for doing that.
00:14:48
bclawson
And there's kind of a similar theme starting to develop here with the Carter family, where they have their way of farming and they're going to dictate to the next generation
00:14:54
Caroline
yeah
00:15:01
bclawson
you're going to do it the way we did it. And maybe Jason has different, more contemporary ideas that Bill and Shirley want no part of. They don't want to know about that.
00:15:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:15:14
bclawson
So let's talk about the murder, the murder of Shirley Carter. On June 18th, 2015, Jason and Shelley and their kids came over to Bill and Shirley's house for dinner and time together as a family. So Jason is bringing his wife and kids over to visit grandpa and grandma, Bill and Shirley. Bill told Jason that he planned to go to Cargill's the next day with some crops to sell. That trip takes about an hour to get there and an hour to get back in a big huge truck that farmers take hundreds, probably thousands of pounds of grain and other crops to be weighed and to get paid.
00:15:58
bclawson
So they work out the price with the distributor and then they you know have it in the back of this humongous farm truck and they are driving down the road to ah for their payday or one of their paydays. So on June 19th, 2015, Bill and Shirley did what they always did. Shirley got up at five in the morning, made pancakes and coffee for Bill. Then Bill would get up at six and he would eat his breakfast at home.
00:16:28
bclawson
And then they both went to town together for coffee. And they were, of course, also there for the news that travels by farmers coming into a cafe or that kind of thing in a small farming town. Now, Bill at this time is 69 years old, surely is 68. So, you know, they're slowing down, but they are not slowing down because of this thing with Jason um not wanting to, you know, play ball.
00:16:58
bclawson
so the way that they want to play ball.
00:17:00
Caroline
Yeah.
00:17:00
bclawson
So Bill drove Shirley home and watched as she waved goodbye to him with a coffee cup still in her hand. Bill needed to get to go get his big cargo truck where it was standing ready with corn or whatever to sell.
00:17:16
bclawson
He told Shirley to expect him home between 11 and 11 30 and off he went. That same morning, Jason was working with his own corn crop to transfer it to sale.
The Murder of Shirley Carter
00:17:31
bclawson
He was also working on a large piece of equipment that actually belonged to Bill and Shirley. It was a farmland sprayer. And there was a bargain between Jason and Bill that Jason could use the sprayer on his own fields
00:17:47
bclawson
in exchange for Jason spraying Bill's fields also. Now this breaks my heart because here we see Bill and I suppose Shirley also, but I'm thinking about Bill.
00:17:59
bclawson
you know Here he is trying again. Won't you please come over and farm with me?
00:18:03
Caroline
Yeah. I just.
00:18:04
bclawson
And so he's got a new scheme. Forget the land that that that Jason won't buy.
00:18:06
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:09
bclawson
He's got a new scheme. I'm going to buy this million dollar you know sprayer thing and you can use it on your land.
00:18:14
Caroline
Yeah. Come. Yes.
00:18:18
bclawson
You don't have to rent anymore. So you can use it on your land if you will spray my land.
00:18:26
Caroline
Yeah.
00:18:27
bclawson
I mean, I just find that tear jerking.
00:18:29
Caroline
I wish I know I just wish that I knew more. I just wish I knew more about that dynamic. Why wouldn't you I don't? And by the way, side note, I would encourage anyone if you have the opportunity and and wherewithal to do so to just find yourself in a small town cafe, because you're right that farming com community early in the morning, coffee time, they do just chatter and they talk and it is the most wonderful slow down thing I think one can do in the morning at a cafe in a small town but I am so confused why Jason as a farmer wouldn't want to farm land by his parents that just is so confusing to me it must be something like you said about the way that Bill and Shirley would have demanded you know maybe they would have micromanaged him the whole time as he's farming I don't know but
00:19:17
bclawson
Oh, yeah, i say I'm picking up on that. Yeah.
00:19:20
Caroline
I mean, it just it bothers me, though, because it seems so simple to it. This all just seems so simple. So I'm I'm frustrated.
00:19:27
bclawson
It does. And that's why I said at the beginning that this is Shakespearean. And the reason that I say that is that Shakespeare had a way of showing a outright path to a good life interrupted by humanity's tendencies to be weird.
00:19:48
Caroline
Yes.
00:19:48
bclawson
I mean, to do things self-sabotage, to tolerate things that are actually intolerable, to be intolerant to things that are small matters that you're blowing out of proportion.
00:19:50
Caroline
to self-sabotage.
00:19:58
Caroline
Yeah, it's weird.
00:20:06
bclawson
I mean, you know, it's very Shakespearean that it is Jason's humanity and the idiosyncrasies of his mind and probably his wife says, well, ah that are at play here, not the actual practicality of what Bill is suggesting.
00:20:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:29
Caroline
Right.
00:20:29
bclawson
Jason just does not want to be a um you know stand-in for the leading man.
00:20:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:20:38
bclawson
He wants to be the leading man.
00:20:39
Caroline
and But you think he like.
00:20:41
bclawson
I kind of get it, I do.
00:20:43
Caroline
Why don't you think he like fully left? I mean, Iowa is surrounded by other farm towns, like other farm states, like, why not go to Kansas or I don't know where else they farm, but like, why not move?
00:20:56
bclawson
I think Jason wants this land.
00:20:57
Caroline
oh Oh, oh, he's waiting around like a like a vulture style.
00:21:02
bclawson
I think he's waiting around like, you know, some farmers might say to the sun, this will all be yours someday, but you're going to have to learn on your own farm how to farm this land.
00:21:03
Caroline
Oh,
00:21:12
Caroline
Yeah.
00:21:20
bclawson
Now, did Bill say that? No, I think what is implied in this, actions that these people are taking is that Bill is saying, you know, this can be your farm if you'll farm it with me my way. And someday it will be yours. And maybe Jason did not want to be the doer worker. He wanted to be the boss.
00:21:20
Caroline
Yeah.
00:21:46
Caroline
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, OK. I don't know why I'm obsessed with knowing this thing. I'll never know, but.
00:21:53
bclawson
Well, I'm just speculating too that Jason was the kind of person for good or for bad that wanted to be his own boss.
00:21:57
Caroline
Yeah.
00:22:03
bclawson
He wanted to control the way his father was a controller. Maybe they were too much alike.
00:22:09
Caroline
Ding, ding, I think that's probably pretty close.
00:22:13
bclawson
So as I was saying that morning, Jason was working on his own corn crop to transfer for sale. He was working on this sprayer thing and and, you know, doing all
Investigation and Family Tensions
00:22:24
bclawson
that.
00:22:24
bclawson
And when Jason arrived at his parents' home after he had delivered his corn to the buyer, he decided to go into the house and see his mother before he started that spraying thing with the with the sprayer.
00:22:38
bclawson
And he wanted to see what time, you know, dinner was gonna be ready because it it seems to me like they maybe ate dinner a lot together that Shirley liked to cook for every, you know, and see her grandchildren that way.
00:22:51
Caroline
Yeah.
00:22:52
bclawson
So ah when he entered the house, he saw his mother dead on the floor of the kitchen. Now, you know, he did call 911. And I was thinking it might be helpful to our listeners to listen just to a bit of the 911 call because the 911 call is very strange. and And we can talk about that. But but also it was hard for 911 to really hear what was being said.
00:23:22
bclawson
but things were being repeated that later turned out to be, that's odd. So here's what poor old Jason sounded like when he found his mother dead on the floor of the kitchen.
00:23:42
bclawson
As plaintiff court, Jason Carter sat there tense, his jaw clenching and his eyes straight down.
00:23:52
bclawson
you hope the So I don't know what happened. I don't get what happened. What happened? I don't know what happened.
00:24:03
bclawson
But then he says, there's a hole in the refrigerator and a hole in the floor, like, you know, bullet hole. And so there were a lot of things said in the 911 call that came back to bite Jason.
00:24:17
Caroline
Yeah.
00:24:21
bclawson
One of them was that um you know it looks like she has been laying here for two hours.
00:24:31
Caroline
So weird.
00:24:31
bclawson
Why would he say that?
00:24:33
Caroline
who Who's got a two hour look about him?
00:24:36
bclawson
And he wasn't down on the floor trying to revive her. I don't care how dead somebody is, when you love somebody, that's your mother, by God, you're going to be down on that floor doing everything you can to plug the holes in wherever they are in her head, in her stomach, whatever's been shot.
00:24:47
Caroline
Shaken them.
00:24:52
Caroline
Totally. Yeah, you know, I just want to make a note that that voice sounds like Jim Caffigan, or like whatever that me voice was that said they're all gonna laugh at you.
00:24:56
bclawson
and
00:25:03
Caroline
I mean, not to make fun or anything, but that's where that is a very high pitched odd voice.
00:25:09
bclawson
It does have a kind of a dramatic weepy, got to cover my bases kind of tone.
00:25:14
Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:19
Caroline
They're all gonna laugh at you. I mean, that's the sense I get.
00:25:23
bclawson
To just say, I don't know what happened, but there is bullet. I mean, when you see your mama laying on the floor, she's 68 years old, there's blood around it.
00:25:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:32
Caroline
more
00:25:37
bclawson
You're going to say, Oh my God, she's fallen.
00:25:39
Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:40
bclawson
I think that's what a lot of normal people would do. But instead you're going to inspect that refrigerator and you're going to inspect the floor around her to detect the bullet holes.
00:25:43
Caroline
Yeah.
00:25:52
Caroline
Yeah, what a time. Like, I think I would be so irrational, like holding, like I, you know, and like shaking, like, cause I, my mind would do irrational things, but it definitely would not go into detective mode. I wouldn't be trying to figure out what's going on as much as I'd be figuring out how to make it stop. I want this to reverse, you know?
00:26:12
bclawson
Not only that, but to me, there's an a there's a kinship between, I didn't do this and I don't know what happened.
00:26:18
Caroline
Right. Right.
00:26:21
bclawson
And if you go out on night if you go out on YouTube and you listen to his entire 911 call many times, does he say, I don't know what happened, but here's this little tiny detail that I detected right away.
00:26:36
bclawson
I mean, oh my God.
00:26:37
Caroline
Weird. Yeah, that's weird.
00:26:39
bclawson
So now that you have a feeling for how Jason sounded, not only on 911, but also during police investigations and in his investigations, and that also is on the YouTube, he, during the inquiries after the death and so forth, he uses that same voice.
00:26:58
bclawson
He's got a very high-pitched, desperate ah voice like Caroline nailed it, Jim Gaffigan.
00:27:03
Caroline
have the
00:27:05
bclawson
Yeah. Now, what if I call him Jim later in the story, you know, you'll have to correct me.
00:27:11
Caroline
I know, I'm sorry. I know I shouldn't talk like that. These are real people, I'm sorry. I just...
00:27:15
bclawson
He just has a very high pitched emotional style. But it it wasn't just that that caused authorities to start looking at him. He said odd things to 911, like, I don't know what happened.
00:27:29
bclawson
She's been shot twice. She's been laying here on the floor for two hours. There's a bullet mark on the floor and one on the fridge. I don't know what happened. I can't figure it out. He made no effort to check her vital signs, Carol Hine.
00:27:46
Caroline
But that's the the weirdest part, as weird as all those other things are. Like, it's weird to me that you don't ah rationally grab this person, like in the movies. Like, I think that's how I would be. Like, ah, like what?
00:27:57
Caroline
This is a body that's supposed to have a life in it. Like, you know.
00:28:01
bclawson
Right. Yes. Now I am going to say that everybody gets to react the way that everybody gets to react.
00:28:09
Caroline
Yes.
00:28:11
bclawson
So that is not going to get him into court, that he had a peculiar way of exonerating himself first and foremost and zero interest in trying to revive his mother.
00:28:12
Caroline
Right.
00:28:15
Caroline
right
00:28:26
Caroline
That's a really good point and I do want to say some people don't like because I remember dad used to do that sometimes if there was some medical emergency dad used to bolt he was a
00:28:36
bclawson
Oh, he was a bolter. The time that one of our puppies got, you know, choke was choking, he ran into the bathroom.
00:28:43
Caroline
You ran into the bathroom. There are other times when he would be running to the front, like if a fire starts or if, you know, something, solid you know, I mean, he's right there.
00:28:49
bclawson
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
00:28:51
Caroline
Like, like emotionally charged situations, he was a bolter. And so you're right to make that point that not everyone has the same response. And none of it is meant to be rational.
00:29:03
Caroline
So good point. I feel like I'm being mean to this person, but
00:29:07
bclawson
So Jason called his sister and told her, and then she he told her to call 9-1-1. He hadn't called 9-1-1 yet. She told him to call 9-1-1. So both of them wound up calling 9-1-1, but they she also said, please call dad and tell him that mom is dead. And when his father Bill ah entered the scene, and of course he was racing down the freeway or the you know the the state highway,
00:29:34
bclawson
there in Iowa from the corn distributor sale. And he was just got there as fast as he could. Jason told his father to check the gun safe in the basement to see if the rifle had shot two rounds.
00:29:48
bclawson
So like the rifle suddenly went off and shot up through the rafters of the kitchen ah you know floor and there was a hole there or whatever.
00:29:48
Caroline
what
00:29:59
bclawson
I don't know what he was thinking, but he just said to go check the gun safe
00:30:03
Caroline
Paired.
00:30:03
bclawson
There was a rifle down there, but it was missing. And there were other types of gun there, too. So my question is, how did Jason know that a rifle had been used?
00:30:14
Caroline
Yeah, that's.
00:30:16
bclawson
How did he know that? He didn't just say, go see if one of your guns went off or something, fell out and went off.
00:30:20
Caroline
Yeah. Even just saying that is weird. Like saying that is weird. Why would you know to go check your own gun safe? Why would you presume that it was a rifle and not only a rifle, but your own rifle? This is so bad.
00:30:36
bclawson
It's a bad clue. It's a bad that what that what anybody in law enforcement would call that a clue.
00:30:42
Caroline
Yup. Yeah.
00:30:42
bclawson
And he was really drawing attention to himself. He drew attention to himself on the 911 call.
00:30:48
Caroline
Yeah.
00:30:48
bclawson
This is about me and I didn't do it.
00:30:51
Caroline
yeah
00:30:51
bclawson
He's drawing attention to himself by deciding and telling his father it must be a rifle. So go down and see if your rifle is okay.
00:31:01
Caroline
Yeah.
00:31:02
bclawson
I mean, you know, this Jason might be so self-centered that he is not aware of the effect that he is having on other people. So narcissism might be going on here.
00:31:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:31:16
bclawson
But after the murders, Bill's life, you know, he had been married to his wife for 50 some years. I mean, they married it at and 16.
00:31:27
Caroline
well
00:31:29
Caroline
Yeah, see, they were clearly a team too.
00:31:31
bclawson
And they're now 68 and 69.
00:31:31
Caroline
It wasn't even like... Oh.
00:31:35
bclawson
So his life laid shambles. The family was split on who did this. There were leads given to police and also hearsay evidence of a man confessing to friends about the murder.
00:31:50
bclawson
But the police were only talking to Bill and Jason. They didn't even look at anybody else because it was just to them, pretty obvious that it was perceived early on by them that it was a family murder, an inside job.
00:32:07
bclawson
Just because both of them were the last person, technically one of them, Bill was the last one to see her alive. Did he have the time to shoot her and then go get the the the corn delivered?
00:32:16
Caroline
Right.
00:32:21
bclawson
Yeah.
00:32:22
Caroline
Yeah.
00:32:22
bclawson
And it was a rifle from their home. Who's going to know that there's a rifle down in the basement and Who's gonna do that? Who's gonna do that?
00:32:30
Caroline
Yeah.
00:32:30
bclawson
There were some signs of a break-in or like a it was a berkeley burglary gone wrong, like some things were rifled through in Bill's office and stuff like that, but nothing was taken, nothing.
00:32:46
Caroline
I was going to say, if nothing's taken, that's a staging, right? I mean, isn't that the case?
00:32:50
bclawson
Absolutely, it's staging. And the other thing is that um you know They just felt like this is this is screaming family murder.
Civil Suit Against Jason Carter
00:33:02
Caroline
Well, to me, it would too, if only because know that I would notice gunshots. I certainly wouldn't notice them enough to know that whether they're a rifle or pistol, whether they came from up under the floor, side to side or down from the ceiling. So like, this is too much. It's too much that you didn't know what happened over and over. It's too much that you can time of death of body when corners struggle with that. It's too much that you knew where to find the weapon or at least where the weapon would have come from. I mean, it's just too much. This is too much.
00:33:37
bclawson
Caroline, if I am not a killer and I walk in on someone I love who is dead on the floor, it would not enter my mind to tell 911 anything other than I need an ambulance here immediately and I need the police.
00:33:54
Caroline
Exactly. Yes.
00:33:56
bclawson
Something has happened to my mother. I need you to tell me what to do. there' She's laying on the floor, but there's blood. And so what do I do?
00:34:06
bclawson
What do I do?
00:34:07
Caroline
Right.
00:34:08
bclawson
I would no more say something. I don't know anybody who would say, Oh, she's been here about two hours.
00:34:14
Caroline
that part like time of death is actually really difficult to calculate and it takes medical expertise so like okay independent farmer there's no way that's a thing that gets in your head
00:34:27
bclawson
I've had a loved one die. And even after they were dead and gone, I still thought they might come back. I don't think that that's all that unusual. Your mind is going to not go to the finality, the tragedy, the loss, the grief, the sorrow. You're going to go through a period of disbelief. And I, you know, I just don't know that Jason, um, you know, again, I'm, I don't want to,
00:35:03
bclawson
judge him based on how he reacted to seeing his mother laying there.
00:35:05
Caroline
ah yeah
00:35:11
bclawson
But it is weird.
00:35:11
Caroline
Yes.
00:35:12
bclawson
And if I were a cop, I'd be thinking it was mighty weird. And I would look at the clues and I would say, there's no evidence of anybody else being in this house but either Bill or Jason.
00:35:16
Caroline
Yes.
00:35:24
Caroline
Yep, yeah.
00:35:25
bclawson
And that's where they were at.
00:35:28
bclawson
Two years after the murder, nobody was talking to anyone in the Carter family And things were very tense. Billy Dean, remember he's the middle child, Jason's older brother. He decided that it was Jason's that did this to get his hands on the family fortune, which was mostly land and machinery and some cash about $80,000 for the seed for the next season. And Father Bill agreed.
00:36:00
bclawson
They just started talking about it and all the clues were put together and they were just fed up with the police who they thought were chasing their tail. So Billy Dean and Bill Senior filed a civil lawsuit against Jason Carter for the murder of their mother, wife, and friend too many, Shirley Carter. Now in a civil trial, the plaintiff, which in this case would be Billy Dean and Bill Senior,
00:36:29
bclawson
The plaintiff has no duty to turn over any exculpatory evidence, any evidence of guilt or any investigative results. And a guilt or innocence verdict does not take beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:36:45
bclawson
It's only a preponderance of evidence. It really is sort of, well, what do you think based on what you've heard and seen to the jury?
00:36:54
Caroline
Yup.
00:36:55
bclawson
Just what do you think? What's your gut feeling?
00:36:57
Caroline
Yeah.
00:36:57
bclawson
That's that's really all it takes.
00:36:59
Caroline
Yup.
00:37:00
bclawson
Jason looked guilty and said weird things, plus it came out that he had been having an affair with another woman.
00:37:06
Caroline
Oh no.
00:37:09
bclawson
Although there were not any deadlines to divorce or anything like that, both he and the woman both said it was a friendship with benefits.
00:37:15
Caroline
Ah
00:37:17
bclawson
They just had, they were good friends and they also were lovers.
00:37:18
Caroline
jeez.
00:37:23
bclawson
Both parties said that. There was no deadline. You got to divorce your wife or anything like that. Still in small town USA, that is not good.
00:37:31
Caroline
I think in any to any you know human universe, it's not nice to deceive people in this way. So I mean, you know I feel less, ah I just have no qualms about making you know make a judgment on Jason anymore.
00:37:44
bclawson
aye Yeah, infidelity just means that your marriage, which is based on trust and mutual care,
00:37:46
Caroline
Sorry.
00:37:54
Caroline
Yes.
00:37:55
bclawson
and mutual interests and all of those things, but more than anything else, trust.
00:38:00
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:01
bclawson
ah Once that trust is broken, the marriage, the way that it was, is broken.
00:38:06
Caroline
Yes.
00:38:06
bclawson
And you don't do that when you're married to somebody in a farm community. You have to rely on the other person.
00:38:13
Caroline
Yeah.
00:38:16
Caroline
Yeah, I just find portrayals of trust really difficult. I mean, because like you said, it shatters everything. It's hard to I don't know. It's just it's a reparable break.
00:38:26
Caroline
So yeah, try not to break that one.
00:38:28
bclawson
Well, yeah, I mean, we built, we humans, chi I don't care where you are on the planet, you tend to build your life around what you know, for sure.
00:38:31
Caroline
um
00:38:36
Caroline
what you yeah what yes what you can count on as being true yeah right yes
00:38:40
bclawson
What you can count on, or it could even be customs, something that is solid and immutable.
00:38:48
Caroline
a footing
00:38:49
bclawson
And when it came to light that there was this affair, all I can say is the civil trial ended in a verdict, not criminally, but civilly guilty.
00:39:04
bclawson
With an award to Bill Senior and Billie Dean, the award was $10 million, Caroline.
00:39:08
Caroline
Oh, dang, Billy and Bill Senior don't play. That's a lot. That's a lot of money.
00:39:15
bclawson
Well, that jury was pissed off at Jason. That's what that tells me.
00:39:18
Caroline
Well, ah you saw me just now just get real pissed at Jason. So he's got away with 10 million.
00:39:22
bclawson
Yeah.
00:39:24
Caroline
No, and I will say this is I don't want to call it my favorite part. I don't want to say it's like a great thing because I know that this bothers people. We can look to the OJ trials, the OJ, Nicole Brown Simpson murder.
00:39:36
Caroline
for where this
Jason's Criminal Trial
00:39:38
Caroline
plays out. Criminally, yeah, you have to, it is beyond a reasonable doubt, meaning any reasonable doubt that creeps in, you're not guilty, right? Or there's some lesser charge. That's what happens criminally. And then similarly, you can run the same case. Now, if someone is found, they're like acquitted in a criminal case, you got that double jeopardy. You can't keep trying them until you successfully get them guilty. That would be unfair. So I appreciate that.
00:40:02
Caroline
but it does suck when we get it wrong. So there's that, but then you can always come civilly to be made whole, right? the The criminal is about punitive justice under the law, whereas civil is about being made whole against a wrong done to you, right?
00:40:21
Caroline
So I appreciate that they got this.
00:40:21
bclawson
Yeah.
00:40:24
bclawson
Well, Caroline, two days after that verdict came down, two days, the sheriff's office arrested Jason for the murder of his mother.
00:40:35
Caroline
Well, it would make it easier, right?
00:40:36
bclawson
Now, I just feel like that's kind of cheesy that you detectives are going to wait for all the evidence to come out.
00:40:46
Caroline
yeah
00:40:47
bclawson
And Jason didn't have any, you know, when you're in a civil trial,
00:40:48
Caroline
It's not like that.
00:40:51
bclawson
You, if you're the plaintiff's side, you do not have to share any evidence ahead of time. You don't have to share any documents ahead of time. You don't have to do any of those things. So this this was kind of a lazy way, in my opinion, of bringing this man to justice before on behalf of the citizens of Iowa.
00:41:13
Caroline
Yeah, yeah, I mean and it could you're right and it could be why they weren't they didn't get what they wanted, right? I mean that could be part of it. You can't go the lazy route or the criminal side.
00:41:25
bclawson
So we're going to talk just a minute about the criminal trial. So far, Jason Carter found the murdered body of his mother. He was outed as a cheater with a friend, with benefits, whatever you want to call it. He was eventually determined to be the killer of his father by, excuse me, he was eventually determined to be the killer by his father and his brother sued in civil court and ordered to pay $10 million. dollars So that's where Jason is right now.
00:41:56
bclawson
You can bet the gaffigan, you know, voice is just going on 24 seven. I mean, his hair's on fire. He used to just say in newspaper articles, they would quote him is I've just been through so much. I'd why this now this what you know, this is so unfair. I mean, he would just go on and on about how wrong this was. So now he was actually going to have to hire a good attorney to avoid life in prison.
00:42:26
bclawson
I mean, you know, somebody that's going to look at the facts that came out in the civil trial, look for any other facts that might point and in a different direction and so forth and so on.
00:42:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:42:38
bclawson
And Jason, through all of that getting ready for trial, you know, he was in custody and he was maintaining his innocence. In the criminal trial, Jason's attorney had to get every shred of evidence given to her and her client, Jason, as a matter of law.
00:42:56
bclawson
Once she saw the evidence, she was shocked and convinced that the local police had put together a case against Jason and Jason only and had not actually investigated the murder.
00:43:12
bclawson
And, you know, I did a lot of research on this case and I agree with her. There were a lot of leads that they poo-pooed because they believed
00:43:20
Caroline
Yeah. Oh.
00:43:24
bclawson
and they had kind of a vision that it was a member of the family.
00:43:26
Caroline
Yeah. Oh, that's.
00:43:30
bclawson
I agree with her.
00:43:31
Caroline
Yeah.
00:43:31
bclawson
There were many people who had come forward with testimony about, and they testified in the criminal trial.
00:43:32
Caroline
yeah
00:43:39
bclawson
They went to the police with a tip about other spending suspects, cars that they saw in the area that morning, oh people who had come in and said that someone else confessed to them and here were the details.
00:43:54
bclawson
suspects that had been coming in for weapons and cash, but surely put up a fight. And all that kind of stuff. And that was, you know, these were tips that were not followed up on.
00:44:10
Caroline
Oh, okay.
00:44:10
bclawson
None of them.
00:44:11
Caroline
See now, and that's the real tragedy here because now we don't know. We don't know if that changes the outcome. We just know that the outcome is now unquestionable because there were these other things that were never, you know, all that sucks.
00:44:23
bclawson
Right. Just because someone is found criminally liable for something in a civil case does not mean they're criminally liable.
00:44:33
Caroline
Yeah.
00:44:36
Caroline
which I actually appreciate.
00:44:37
bclawson
Technically.
00:44:37
Caroline
I actually, I recognize that probably from the outside looking in the American judicial system, which lets me down to looks funky. Like it's so easy to game and it probably, and it is and the money and the things, but this idea that you have so many options to exhaust before you are fully removed from your freedom is really important to me.
00:45:00
Caroline
Like,
00:45:01
bclawson
I agree.
00:45:01
Caroline
you know I think it's important that I can say in the eyes of the public, you're wrong and we know that you did this, but criminally, you're not meeting the standard to serve the time.
00:45:03
bclawson
I agree.
00:45:10
Caroline
like I like these separations. I recognize that outside looking in, it probably looks jacked up. But from an American perspective, and I've been raised in America my whole life, like I love it.
00:45:21
bclawson
Well I will say that I do think that Uh, if you, you know, I have been to small claims court one time and I lost and it pissed me off and now I see why I lost and it was over a real estate thing where I didn't get my, uh, money back, you know, the promise money or the, the down payment or whatever it is that they, when you make a deal to buy a house promise, yeah, something like that.
00:45:41
Caroline
yeah promissory note or escrow or something yeah no don't be embarrassed
00:45:47
bclawson
I was really angry about, you know, how it was all done and, you know, the realtor worked for the seller and she was on their side. And I went to, and I just did not win that case.
00:45:58
bclawson
It was so embarrassing because I worked for the same county where I went in and got slammed in my, in my.
00:46:04
Caroline
hey
00:46:05
bclawson
So if you look at a civil trial in a murder situation, it's really small claims court turned big claims court.
00:46:14
Caroline
Yep, that's right. You're 100% right. And that's why it's like there's these separations you gotta make in your brain. This isn't about you killed someone, we do what we do with people that can.
00:46:25
Caroline
No, this is now about there's a wrong. How do we make someone whole from the wrong? It's a little bit more on the labor side.
00:46:31
bclawson
Yeah, we think you probably did kill your mother. So we're going to charge you $10 million dollars for that. And we could be wrong, but too bad.
00:46:38
Caroline
Yeah.
00:46:38
bclawson
So there there is a difference there. So anyway, so there were people coming forward saying, you know, the I gave a tip and then out of the person, I told them the names of the suspects.
00:46:41
Caroline
Yeah, sorry.
00:46:50
bclawson
I know these people, not none of these tips were followed up on from the jump. The local police only considered that either Jason killed his mother or Bill killed his wife.
00:47:01
Caroline
Okay.
00:47:02
bclawson
Everything was not as it seemed in the Carter family. There was only one child interested in farming, and that child, Jason, did not like working for his father, who all agreed ruled with an iron fist.
00:47:17
bclawson
So when the evidence came out about Bill, Bill is someone who wants his way, my way or highway, and he ruled with an iron fist.
00:47:24
Caroline
Yeah. Huh.
00:47:28
bclawson
ja And to me, an iron fist means that you either do as I say, or you're going to be one hurting unit.
00:47:35
Caroline
Yeah, like misery, even like it would just be like everything is so heavy when you're around this person.
00:47:36
bclawson
Misery.
00:47:41
Caroline
Yeah.
00:47:43
bclawson
Another thing came out that Jason had told a friend that he did not want to throw in with his father on his father's land because his mother, he referred to her as that bitch.
00:47:57
Caroline
Oh, geez.
00:47:58
bclawson
Now, is that what everybody calls their mother in Iowa? I doubt it.
00:48:03
Caroline
No.
00:48:03
bclawson
But Jason was saying it was his mother because of the mother. And I think that maybe there was something about, you know, two against one that he did not like.
00:48:14
bclawson
Or maybe, maybe the mother was the purse strings holder.
00:48:14
Caroline
Huh.
00:48:18
Caroline
Like, why stay? That kind of brings me back to my question from Jason. Like, if you're spending, you want to be a farmer. Like, there are some farmland outside of that town in Iowa, or even outside of Iowa. Like, how was that ever considered? I don't know. that That's where my mind, because I could, I mean, yeah, farmers are probably not easy people to get along with.
00:48:40
bclawson
No, I'm with you. I mean, he what he's saying is that he's repeating what his father had said about marrying a farmer, not just a farmer's wife.
00:48:49
Caroline
Right, right.
00:48:49
bclawson
And was he just not interested in working for his father and his mother? Because he would not be the farmer.
00:48:54
Caroline
Yeah. Right. He would just be the lackey until they both died. And that would probably drive Jason crazy, waiting for them to, you know, leave him the inheritance. But why stick around at all then? I don't know. Lots of questions here.
00:49:10
bclawson
I don't know, close to the murder, Jason's landlord was selling the house that Jason and his family lived in as land renting farmers. Jason had the bandwidth to buy the house and he had ah you know a lot of credit with the bank because he was always paying off the money that he borrowed the year before for the seeds and fertilizer and all that kind of stuff.
00:49:35
Caroline
Right.
00:49:38
bclawson
But he was about $100,000 short of that deal that the landowner was making for the land and ah the lock stocking barrel, basically, the house and everything, the equipment and so forth.
00:49:45
Caroline
Yeah.
00:49:53
bclawson
He needed $100,000. Apparently both Bill and Shirley said no to that because it was right after they had offered him a chance to buy a small part of their family farm.
00:50:04
bclawson
Bill still wanted him to
00:50:07
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:07
bclawson
be the inheritor of that farm by working the land by his side. Or maybe Bill is a son of a bitch and just wanting to have a target.
00:50:19
Caroline
Yeah.
00:50:19
bclawson
Surely it's not going to be his target.
00:50:21
Caroline
I mean, that's that's tough because. I see now why Jason didn't want to buy that man. He's got his own. He is trying to get out. He is trying to get out of this
Aftermath and Family Isolation
00:50:32
bclawson
He could have been insulted that, that that you know, This is like maybe they offer him a shack to live in. By that, I mean, you know, because this was the land that the deer were constantly decimating around the edges.
00:50:32
Caroline
town, you know.
00:50:45
bclawson
So it's considered the lesser oh value land.
00:50:48
Caroline
It's going to need a lot of work to build it up to a place that Jason would then begin to be able to farm it for a potential profit.
00:50:56
bclawson
Or it could be that he that bill was just often a problem on to Jason and Jason was insulted.
00:51:00
Caroline
Yeah.
00:51:03
Caroline
Yeah, but I mean, there are so many unanswered questions here, but it is clear that the parents were difficult to get along with. Two of the kids left that entirely, and one stayed for some reason.
00:51:14
bclawson
Right.
00:51:19
bclawson
Well, Jason, remember, had said no to and, you know, they his parents had considered that to be they were peeved and they considered him to be selfish.
00:51:28
Caroline
you
00:51:30
bclawson
That's what they said. oh That's what Bill said at trial. Seems to me that Jason again and again is wanting to be an independent farmer, not a kid who threw in with his parents.
00:51:42
Caroline
Yeah.
00:51:42
bclawson
And yet, Caroline, he wanted them to bankroll his life.
00:51:47
Caroline
Yeah, that's the sticky wicket here is like you're trying to break free, but you're trying to do it with them as cosigners. I don't know. It's tough. no
00:51:57
bclawson
At the end of the criminal trial, Jason was found not guilty. He went back to his leased farm and his family. He rented farmland that is directly adjacent to his father's fields. They see each other, each on a tractor or another piece of equipment. No more loaning Jason equipment in exchange for helping his father with his property. Something tells me that Jason is marginally making it economically, but he is doing fine otherwise. He certainly knows where he stands with his family.
00:52:39
bclawson
no one will talk to Jason from his family of origin. And yet there he runs fields adjacent to his father's property. Jason has appealed the $10 million dollar judgment against him, but has no money to pay. But he has lost every attempt to get that thrown out. Bill tells friends that he doesn't want the money. He knows his friend, Jason, his friend, his father.
00:53:08
bclawson
Okay, Freudian slip time. He knows his son doesn't have the money and will never have the money. He just wanted the justice that came with winning in one court, if not the other.
Reflections on Rural Family Life
00:53:23
Caroline
How?
00:53:24
bclawson
Local newspapers in 2020 reported that Billy Dean and Bill Sr. got into a fistfight on a street corner and a passerby found Bill Sr.
00:53:36
bclawson
laying on the ground and helped him get back in his truck when Bill Senior 73 at the time of this fight.
00:53:40
Caroline
Okay.
00:53:44
Caroline
Okay. Now this is sounding very farmland to me, not that they're all out there fighting in the streets, but that's just what you do you found laying in the grass somebody my helps your truck get out there on the tractor.
00:53:55
bclawson
I'm just thinking these two were in cahoots to bring Jason to a civil court and get a judgment of $10 million, dollars but now they're fighting.
00:54:05
Caroline
Well, not only that, but they don't ever even want to recoup the 10 million. And now it has me questioning again, everything about was maybe it was Bill, and this was a grand payback scheme to to poke at Jason for not accepting his thing, but not really, because that 911 call is still funky. But either way, this is the most messed up family dynamic I think I have ever read about. And I'm left with so many questions, like ah so many questions.
00:54:32
bclawson
Well, I'll tell you what this case has done to me and then we'll we'll close our case on the Carter family in Iowa. This case busted every Norman Rockwell sensibility I had left about the salt of the earth people who farm large parcels of land in the heartland of America and have perfect homespun lives.
00:54:57
bclawson
That's what it did to me.
00:54:58
Caroline
yeah
00:54:59
bclawson
I should take them to civil court.
00:55:03
bclawson
I think every human, even the most resilient among us, has a breaking point.
00:55:08
Caroline
Yes, 100%.
00:55:12
bclawson
All the Carter's children broke away and one of them may have murdered the mother, or maybe not.
00:55:20
Caroline
yeah wow this is a really good one mom really good yeah yep yeah
00:55:25
bclawson
i I just really feel like some of my romantic notions about anything and everything are just you know just another Etsy page that I can look at and dream of having this homespun item and we live on a farm and we have goats and we have pumpkins and our two children help us and we're totally organic and won't you come and join us we have a maze for you to walk through and
00:55:54
Caroline
right right it's not all yeah that's not all like it's not all rainbows and butterflies yeah totally
00:56:02
bclawson
Oh, wouldn't I like to live like that? No.
00:56:06
bclawson
No. No, it might be for some people, but you know, I consider my own life kind of rainbowy and butterfly for the most part. So do you have to far get that?
00:56:15
Caroline
that's right
00:56:17
bclawson
No, you have to be damn lucky to get that.
00:56:20
Caroline
Yeah, and I think you have to keep choosing every day something for yourself.
00:56:23
bclawson
Oh, absolutely. You have to choose what butterflies really are like.
00:56:24
Caroline
Yeah.
00:56:28
bclawson
I mean, you have to have to
00:56:29
Caroline
Yeah.
00:56:31
bclawson
you have to reassess what is success, what is you know what is the family, what is all of those things.
00:56:34
Caroline
g what my blood and
00:56:38
bclawson
That's always up for debate.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:56:40
bclawson
Now, here we hear my dog, ah Fiona, who just has to weigh in on this case.
00:56:41
Caroline
ah yeah
00:56:48
Caroline
yeah
00:56:48
bclawson
So Caroline, that ends our case for today. Listeners, thank you so much for sticking with us, and we really appreciate you. Please leave us ah a review, especially on Apple, it really helps.
00:57:03
bclawson
ah Leave a message about what you liked about the show. Give us a five-star rating, all of that helps. And one other thing, don't forget to live and let live.
00:57:17
bclawson
So bye-bye, Caroline.
00:57:19
Caroline
ah Bye-bye.
00:57:21
bclawson
Talk to you later, listeners.