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![006 - Student Staff Accountability: Demerits or Development? | Alana St. Cyr, Victor Salazar, and Jason Titus [Feature Topic] image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=54,quality=85/image-files/605db9539a00e40074826685/733e7e3d-9d73-4dce-9fd9-65d29d14b4dd.)
006 - Student Staff Accountability: Demerits or Development? | Alana St. Cyr, Victor Salazar, and Jason Titus [Feature Topic]
4 Plays3 years ago
“This podcast has positive psychology and solutions-based counseling.” -Jason Titus, Ph.D.
Today’s episode is another feature topic: student staff accountability. If the only times you think about staff accountability are when you are facing staffing situations, this episode will demonstrate the value in considering these topics when things are going fine to better position yourself and your department for when things inevitably go sideways. I’m joined today by Alana St. Cyr, Victor Salazar, and Jason Titus who help explore all things student staff accountability. Yes, that’s right. We are talking about the practicality of RA agreements, whether accountability conversations are actually developmental, coaching people out of jobs, and even terminating people.
Seeking professional advice? Fill out this anonymous form and a panel of housing staff will give you their take on your situation on an upcoming episode.
Be Sure to Thank Our Guests!
Connect with Alana St. Cyr on LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Victor on LinkedIn
Connect with Jason on LinkedIn
People, Places, and Things Mentioned in Episode 005:
University of Central Arkansas [University Website]
Our Lady of the Lake University [University Website]
Texas Christian University[University Website]
University of Texas at Arlington [University Website]
Positive Psychology [Wikipedia]
Solutions Based Counseling [Wikipedia]
Motivational Interviewing [Website]
Determine Your Enneagram Type [Free Online Test]
Enneagram Type Descriptions [Website]
Arya Stark’s List of Names [GOT Wiki]
Bachelor Season 22 Episode 13 [TV Show]
Piet Hein, Danish Polymath [Wikipedia]
Recommended![025 - Fun Topics from the ACUHO-I Community Forum | Joel Gatti [Feature Topic] image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=112,quality=85/image-files/605db9539a00e40074826685/733e7e3d-9d73-4dce-9fd9-65d29d14b4dd.)
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introductions
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Swakuho podcast.
00:00:04
Speaker
Today's feature topic is sure to be a doozy, student staff accountability.
00:00:09
Speaker
That's right.
00:00:10
Speaker
We are talking follow-up conversations, demerits, terminations, and even coaching people out of their jobs.
00:00:17
Speaker
We are looking at working agreements, the developmental aspects of our accountability processes, and considering if supervisors should feel personally responsible for the failures of their staff.
00:00:28
Speaker
I am fortunate today to be joined by a variety of perspectives because our three guests represent each of the graduate level, mid-level, and senior level positions.
00:00:36
Speaker
Rest assured, in talking to our guests before the show, I clearly stated the listener expectations of their performance today.
00:00:43
Speaker
And if they fail to meet those expectations, they were going to force me to have a developmental follow-up conversation with them.
00:00:51
Speaker
Our first guest is Alana St.
00:00:52
Speaker
Cyr, who is a second year graduate level residence coordinator at the University of Central Arkansas.
00:00:58
Speaker
Alana is originally from Minnesota and got her Bachelor's of Science in Psychology at Minnesota State University, Mankato, where she fell in love with student leadership and campus involvement.
00:01:08
Speaker
Alana is a first generation college student who strives to explore new places, experiences, and gain diverse perspectives.
00:01:16
Speaker
Her current biggest passions outside of work include reading, yoga, and playing with her dog.
00:01:22
Speaker
Alana, welcome to the show.
00:01:24
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me.
00:01:26
Speaker
Our second guest is Victor Salazar, the Director of Residence Life at Our Lady of the Lake University.
00:01:32
Speaker
Victor has had a passion for higher education since serving as an RA in college.
00:01:36
Speaker
Victor found the wonderful world of housing and has never left with a career spanning position such as RA, Assistant Hall Director to Hall Director, Staff Training and Development Coordinator, Business Operations, and now as Director.
00:01:50
Speaker
Victor has worked at small private and large public schools and worked with staff sizes ranging from 15 to 150.
00:01:57
Speaker
Victor's very first job was working at a zoo and sometimes thinks he still works at one.
00:02:03
Speaker
Victor, welcome to the show.
00:02:05
Speaker
You know, JC, thank you.
00:02:06
Speaker
I'm going to have you introduce me everywhere I go.
00:02:10
Speaker
I'd be happy to be your hype man.
00:02:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:14
Speaker
Our third guest is Dr. Jason Titus, who serves as the Associate Director for Housing and Residence Life at Texas Christian University.
00:02:21
Speaker
Born and raised in Missouri, Jason traveled north to Iowa to receive his bachelor's degree in business administration from Graceland University and then attended the University of Pacific in California, where he earned his master's degree in educational administration and student affairs.
00:02:36
Speaker
Since then, Jason has worked in housing and student union capacities at five different universities spanning 13 years.
00:02:43
Speaker
Jason recently completed his PhD in Curriculum Studies at TCU.
00:02:47
Speaker
He resides in Fort Worth with his wife, Annie, and his two sons.
00:02:51
Speaker
He enjoys soccer, Kansas City sports, spending time with loved ones, and of course, all things TCU.
00:02:59
Speaker
Jason, welcome to the show.
00:03:01
Speaker
Thanks.
00:03:02
Speaker
I didn't realize that you had such a dark podcast voice.
00:03:06
Speaker
Now I feel very sure I'm going to be one of those who gets a demerit at the end of this.
00:03:11
Speaker
We're just waiting for the DeBerritt to come at this point.
00:03:14
Speaker
It's kind of ominous, yeah.
00:03:16
Speaker
It's funny, at a student affairs retreat back at UTA, I did a presentation and afterwards, someone came up and was like, I feel like I just listened to an NPR podcast.
00:03:27
Speaker
So maybe that was the genesis of this whole thing.
00:03:30
Speaker
It's definitely putting a lot of pressure on things.
00:03:34
Speaker
Yeah, that's the way we roll around here, high-pressure situations.
00:03:37
Speaker
But thank you all for joining us.
00:03:39
Speaker
Let's start
Understanding RE Agreements
00:03:40
Speaker
off.
00:03:40
Speaker
RE working agreements are fairly common documents in housing departments and are closely connected as a reference point in staff accountability processes.
00:03:49
Speaker
So first things first, how many pages are your RE agreements and what is the most obscure item on your RE agreement?
00:03:56
Speaker
You know, something that happened once but had to get told to everyone from now until the end of time.
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:01
Speaker
So ours, probably at TCU, about two and a half pages total.
00:04:06
Speaker
It's a web doc.
00:04:07
Speaker
So you just scroll down through.
00:04:09
Speaker
But I got more than a few things on there.
00:04:12
Speaker
I know the more obscure things that are on there because things happened and we had to make sure that they're a part of our code of ethics, which is how we title it, is we needed to add for alcohol, not just to not be drinking while you're on call, but even before you're on call, but most importantly, before university events.
00:04:29
Speaker
Because when you're
00:04:30
Speaker
You're just an RA and you're of age and you have a beer or two and then you go to a university event.
00:04:35
Speaker
You're still an RA out there.
00:04:36
Speaker
Does that include football games?
00:04:37
Speaker
That does include football games.
00:04:39
Speaker
Yep.
00:04:40
Speaker
And so things to consider as you go.
00:04:44
Speaker
Now, the enforcement of the football game.
00:04:46
Speaker
I don't know that anyone's out there smelling breath as they come back out.
00:04:50
Speaker
The other one is dating residents and whatnot.
00:04:53
Speaker
Obviously, that one didn't get plugged in there because no one had thought about dating a resident.
00:04:57
Speaker
I'm sure that occurred and thus gets added into our code of ethics.
00:05:01
Speaker
I dated one of my residents when I was an RA.
00:05:03
Speaker
Demerit.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:06
Speaker
Now you're making me think of stuff to add.
00:05:08
Speaker
I didn't even think about adding drinking while on call.
00:05:12
Speaker
So I'm going to have to review our expectations on that one.
00:05:15
Speaker
You just got to cover everything.
00:05:17
Speaker
Not before, not on call, after appropriately.
00:05:21
Speaker
At one of my first institutions, I think our expectations were up to almost 16 pages at one point.
00:05:27
Speaker
Now I think the one I have is about eight pages.
00:05:31
Speaker
And one of the most obscure, they actually have two, being at a religious affiliated school, we actually had to add in there that students are not obligated to participate in religious events.
00:05:43
Speaker
You know, we may ask them to attend as representatives of our department, but we didn't expect them to kneel or to take communion or things of that sort.
00:05:52
Speaker
We had a student at one point who thought we were forcing them to convert.
00:05:57
Speaker
And so that is definitely something we added in there as an expectation.
00:06:01
Speaker
You just need to show up, but you don't necessarily have to.
00:06:04
Speaker
to practice Catholicism at this point, or I guess at any point, really.
00:06:10
Speaker
And another random one that I never thought we would have to have is that we had to add in there that you have to actually live in your room.
00:06:17
Speaker
You know, you would think that that's a simple thing, but we had an RA once who was just staying there while on call, but was living elsewhere.
00:06:25
Speaker
And so that is definitely part of our expectations now.
00:06:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:30
Speaker
At UCA, we have about eight pages as well.
00:06:33
Speaker
So it's a little bit more of a lengthy document.
00:06:35
Speaker
I wouldn't say there's anything incredibly obscure, but definitely like the relationships, the working relationships for sure is a big one that we cover and consensual relationships.
00:06:45
Speaker
So are RE agreements a helpful tool for defining the scope of the student staff position or are they actually a laundry list of ways our staff can fail us?
00:06:55
Speaker
I would say a thing could be two things.
00:06:57
Speaker
I think that the expectations that get set through our code of ethics start the RA on the pathway towards acknowledging the importance of the position and the expectations of the character that you need to have and hold in order to maintain the role.
00:07:12
Speaker
But it's also a document that details the most egregious ways, not the most egregious ways, but like pretty egregious ways that you can be failing at or no longer be, your behavior wouldn't be acceptable for the position if you engaged in these ways.
00:07:27
Speaker
And so I think that it's kind of a thing can be two things.
00:07:30
Speaker
I think it's both the pictures that you paint.
00:07:33
Speaker
I view it as more of a tool for defining the scope of the student staff position.
00:07:38
Speaker
I also think it's a lot in how you word it, too, because we could word it and say, don't do X, Y, and Z. Or we could say student staff are responsible for this, that, and the third.
00:07:48
Speaker
So I think it's important that we word it in more of an empowering way of like, this is what you get to do as a student staff member.
00:07:54
Speaker
These are your responsibilities, but not don't do this, that
00:07:57
Speaker
that and the other thing because that makes it more like restrictive or like you're going to be fired if you do this.
00:08:03
Speaker
It's like at swimming pools when they say always walk instead of don't run.
00:08:10
Speaker
Yeah, I was just going to add that, you know, I see it as an extension or continuation of the job description.
00:08:16
Speaker
I mean, I don't think the goal is to just retell the job description, but more so how we expect them to conduct themselves.
00:08:25
Speaker
And there's all those little nuances that are not covered maybe by general student employment expectations for your university.
00:08:32
Speaker
And it also even covers that fishbowl kind of concept that most people have probably talked to their students about that.
00:08:39
Speaker
Remember, you're an extension of us.
00:08:42
Speaker
And what does that look like?
00:08:43
Speaker
And so it's kind of those hard examples of what that is.
00:08:46
Speaker
I definitely think they're a laundry list of ways our staff can fail us.
00:08:51
Speaker
With that kind of podcast voice, you need to.
00:08:56
Speaker
Rather, you mean a list of how they have failed you, and now you're just reminding the others to not do as those before you.
00:09:02
Speaker
That's right.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yes.
00:09:03
Speaker
This random RA in this very unique situation that will never happen again.
00:09:07
Speaker
I got to make sure just in case.
00:09:10
Speaker
It's like I feel like we just need – I just need one bullet point on my RA agreement.
00:09:13
Speaker
Don't be a scumbag, and then the rest is all good.
00:09:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:17
Speaker
God defines come back.
00:09:18
Speaker
That's too broad.
00:09:19
Speaker
No.
00:09:20
Speaker
People need to exercise their phronesis and like on their own.
00:09:26
Speaker
Some kind of reverse other duties as a sign.
00:09:28
Speaker
Catch all of some sort.
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:31
Speaker
So Alana, I want
Supervisory Roles and Accountability
00:09:33
Speaker
to go back to your point about wording them more positively.
00:09:36
Speaker
I think the idea of like, you know, do we really need to tell staff not to break federal laws?
00:09:41
Speaker
And so I think the reverse of that and what you would suggest is be like, follow federal laws, right?
00:09:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:48
Speaker
I mean, I think encouraging good behavior is definitely a positive thing.
00:09:53
Speaker
I think a lot of times students are very restricted to, you can't do this, you can't do this.
00:09:58
Speaker
And college is a space for them to kind of explore.
00:10:02
Speaker
So telling them the things that they are able to do, I also think opens them up to opportunities of how can I also like make this job my own and really make the role something that means something to me and helps me develop in the way that I want to.
00:10:15
Speaker
And so I think by giving them that power to choose that, it's more powerful than saying, don't do this, don't do this.
00:10:20
Speaker
I love that.
00:10:21
Speaker
So our number one takeaway so far for all of our listeners is that the challenge for today is to go home and make everything on their RE agreement positively worded.
00:10:31
Speaker
straight from Milana at the University of Central Arkansas.
00:10:35
Speaker
Let me know how it goes.
00:10:37
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:10:37
Speaker
Anyone who does that, you're an auto guest on the show in the future.
00:10:42
Speaker
I've always been concerned about how these documents are then reviewed during staff training.
00:10:47
Speaker
Like, hey, it's the first day of training and everyone is excited that this is our community team and we're going to make meaningful differences in shepherding these students to academic success.
00:10:55
Speaker
But wait, before we get to the fun stuff, we'll sit down and read through these eight page documents of ways you can fail in your job or the extended expectations of your job description.
00:11:05
Speaker
Sound good?
00:11:07
Speaker
Is that the best way to set the tone or are there other ways that you all do it in training that makes it a little bit more palatable?
00:11:13
Speaker
Yeah, just sit them down and say right away, welcome.
00:11:15
Speaker
And here's the 18 pages.
00:11:17
Speaker
I learned this from one of my state school experiences that I've continued even here at Arlie of the Lake.
00:11:23
Speaker
We take the job description or the, I'm sorry, the agreements and we break it up over training and we discuss it during the applicable parts of training.
00:11:33
Speaker
And so, you know, we'll pull out,
00:11:35
Speaker
when we're talking about programming, okay, here are programming expectations and those parts of the agreement.
00:11:40
Speaker
And we kind of break it up over that week or so, whatever, of training to kind of make it a little more prevalent.
00:11:47
Speaker
So that's worked for us.
00:11:48
Speaker
Love that.
00:11:49
Speaker
I personally have mostly just experienced a let's sit down and look it over and everyone popcorn reads it and we sit around.
00:11:56
Speaker
Do I think that's the most effective way to keep them engaged with it?
00:11:59
Speaker
Probably not, but that's what I've seen.
00:12:01
Speaker
I think it's important, and you'll hear me say this a lot, it's our ethos here, is that you lead with care, right?
00:12:06
Speaker
And if we're going to care about you, A, I want you to know the job before you agree to it.
00:12:11
Speaker
I think that's important, right?
00:12:12
Speaker
I don't want you just agreeing to do things when you don't even know what you're about to do.
00:12:15
Speaker
Like, that's, I think, a poor life development lesson.
00:12:18
Speaker
The other thing is that, like, I think entering into these conversations and caring about people means that you're not framing it as the checklist of death over there, right?
00:12:27
Speaker
Instead, like, you're...
00:12:29
Speaker
Like, you know, it's like family or family agreement.
00:12:32
Speaker
Right.
00:12:32
Speaker
Like, so for all of us to be in this together, which is going to be some good times, but also sometimes we're on campus shoveling snow and ice and everyone else is gone or we're dealing with masks and COVID and all these other things in a way that other people are not.
00:12:46
Speaker
You know, like here's the agreement for us, for us to care and appreciate for each other, but to be able to lean on each other.
00:12:51
Speaker
and hold each other to a higher standard.
00:12:54
Speaker
Most of these things come because it impacts the position.
00:12:57
Speaker
If you drink before you are on the RA roll, you're less equipped to be on the RA roll.
00:13:01
Speaker
It hurts everybody.
00:13:02
Speaker
If you're dating a resident, that hurts the staff camaraderie and that hurts the staff.
00:13:07
Speaker
If you're not...
00:13:08
Speaker
Being a good student, that hurts your ability to articulate what it takes to be a good student to other students, right?
00:13:14
Speaker
So each one of those things manifests itself.
00:13:16
Speaker
And it's important that we understand our shared values, but also that we do that in a way that articulates care.
00:13:22
Speaker
And I would also say that if it ever got to the point, which it does sometimes, of termination, you can still terminate people by caring about them.
00:13:30
Speaker
Like sometimes the role itself is not what's best for them or the decisions they're making are showing that
00:13:35
Speaker
They need other development or other opportunities to teach them in a way the role can't anymore.
00:13:39
Speaker
And because of that, it's time for the position and the person to depart from each other.
00:13:44
Speaker
And I think that to me, that's okay.
00:13:46
Speaker
I just think it's really important to engage with care as you do so, so that people can disassociate their worth and their works as you're having these conversations.
00:13:54
Speaker
Well, Jason, I think you just touched on like every topic.
00:13:57
Speaker
So we're good to go.
00:13:59
Speaker
Like this episode to wrap already.
00:14:01
Speaker
Okay.
00:14:02
Speaker
So Alana, you were an RA.
00:14:04
Speaker
So what's it like moving from a position as a student RA now into a role of it?
00:14:10
Speaker
Like you have to hold your staff accountable and have follow-up conversations with them, whether they're big or small.
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think it definitely has been a transition for me.
00:14:18
Speaker
One thing that I've really enjoyed about it is that because I've just come from
00:14:22
Speaker
the student side and the RA side, I can put myself in their shoes a little bit more because my experience was more recent.
00:14:30
Speaker
And so as much as the conversation is about maybe like the job action or something, I'm also remembering that they're human, they're students, they have all these other identities that they hold.
00:14:41
Speaker
And so that really plays a role into maybe why did you make this decision or why
00:14:46
Speaker
Have things been going like this within the job?
00:14:48
Speaker
So being able to relate in that way and kind of take a step back and be like, okay, where was I at a couple of years ago?
00:14:54
Speaker
And how would I have felt in this situation?
00:14:57
Speaker
I think that's given me some really good insight to having developmental conversations with my staff.
00:15:01
Speaker
And Jason and Victor, what's one small piece of advice you would give to a new professional who just moved into a role where they have to hold people accountable for expectations and may have just been on the receiving end of that a year ago?
00:15:15
Speaker
I mean, I kind of just stated it, but the first thing I typically lead with is that the need to separate a person's works and their worth.
00:15:21
Speaker
Like if we're having a conversation and a hall doctor needs to talk to an RA, I want to make sure that what we're talking about is the work that's being done or not done, the deadlines that aren't being built or met.
00:15:32
Speaker
But even within that, that person still feels valued and cared for in that process because we're an integration of education into a development of an opportunity.
00:15:40
Speaker
Right.
00:15:41
Speaker
And so, like, I think caring for that person during it is important.
00:15:44
Speaker
Sometimes that means putting yourself into their shoes and asking like how you would want the conversation to go if you had been dropping the ball in this way.
00:15:50
Speaker
Like, how would you like that engagement to happen?
00:15:52
Speaker
Whether or not you deliver solutions for them or help them come up with their own solutions, each one of those may vary by circumstance.
00:15:59
Speaker
But I think it's really important that you to realize that you can address people's works and expect more of those works while still holding up their worth.
00:16:07
Speaker
And I would hope that they would do the same to the hall director come evaluation time or whatever the case may be.
00:16:12
Speaker
And I would have the expectation that anyone that I supervise or ends that tree of supervision would do that up and down along those lines.
00:16:20
Speaker
I would say giving yourself just some grace to mess up.
00:16:24
Speaker
These are just as much a learning experience for you as it is for the students that you're working with.
00:16:30
Speaker
And after how many years I've been doing this, I can't say I've got it down to 100%, those developmental conversations, especially as you start dealing with professional staff.
00:16:39
Speaker
But I think the other advice I would give to a brand new staff member who's supervising is to just prepare as much as possible for those conversations.
00:16:49
Speaker
RAs, they like to nitpick and give me an example or what exactly, and they wanna know the hard facts.
00:16:55
Speaker
And so prepare for those conversations.
00:16:58
Speaker
Sometimes they have to happen on the fly, but when you have the chance and you know that conversation's coming up, prepare for it, write down your examples and make sure you're ready for the rebuttal.
00:17:07
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:07
Speaker
They got to see the receipts.
00:17:09
Speaker
Very much.
00:17:10
Speaker
Yes.
Accountability Models in Higher Education
00:17:11
Speaker
So we've talked a little bit about how they should be developmental.
00:17:14
Speaker
Are accountability models, like how are they developmental?
00:17:17
Speaker
And do we care about this more than other industries?
00:17:20
Speaker
We care about it longer.
00:17:21
Speaker
To your question of is it developmental, I think it can be.
00:17:25
Speaker
Obviously, it depends on all the participants.
00:17:27
Speaker
And if an RA is kind of already checked out, sometimes the model just elongates their checked outness longer and longer until it's time for termination or separation, however that goes.
00:17:38
Speaker
What I've experienced both outside of higher ed or, you know, higher ed adjacent is most places are much quicker in the model, right?
00:17:47
Speaker
They have data or statistics that are showing them, you know, the logistics of lack of performance, right?
00:17:53
Speaker
There's proof that they're bringing the receipts or whatever, and they're faster to move to, I think what's traditional, which is, you know,
00:17:59
Speaker
verbal warning, written warning, probation, termination, those things happen, at least in my experience, much faster.
00:18:05
Speaker
Because I feel like at the university level, it happens within the department, but then depending on the university I've been at, HR has a say one way or another at times because it's termination from employment.
00:18:15
Speaker
It's a state school that operates differently, in my experience, than a private school, but it just gets really elongated, which for some students is better and even gives them a chance to heal from whatever was harming them that was causing their impact to suffer so they can recoup.
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah, just a little bit longer in my experience.
00:18:32
Speaker
Completely agree.
00:18:33
Speaker
I think for in our discipline, too, like we want to see them grow and develop holistically.
00:18:39
Speaker
And so therefore, I think that we have more patience and we see them go through a lot more things.
00:18:44
Speaker
And we also connect with them on a deeper level than some other disciplines may.
00:18:49
Speaker
Not to say that supervisors don't connect with their employees in other disciplines, but I think we are really
00:18:55
Speaker
sometimes strictly here for their development to see them become leaders and become just better students and more well-rounded.
00:19:02
Speaker
And so we are going to support them through those mistakes and through those bumps in the road and things.
00:19:07
Speaker
We're probably going to have a little bit more tolerance for that if we're able to.
00:19:11
Speaker
And I love what you just said.
00:19:13
Speaker
I would add on to that.
00:19:15
Speaker
Sometimes we're in a toxic relationship that we don't realize the position is what's toxic for the student.
00:19:21
Speaker
And I think there's times that we can enter in because we care so much and our relationship is tied to them in the position to not realize that by either separating or terminating them from the role might actually be the healthiest thing for them.
00:19:35
Speaker
And instead, we take on our savior complex that, no, no, through this role, I can save you.
00:19:41
Speaker
And I think it's important that we realize that accountability sometimes in individual circumstance.
00:19:46
Speaker
that because we care so much, we're actually adding a toxicity to the relationship with the RA.
00:19:51
Speaker
And so I think it's a great, great point and something that at least I've seen new professionals, but seasoned professionals just as much as sometimes, if not more, kind of having their blinders on by how important the RA position is and being willing to have that almost harm the person that needs to be out of the role.
00:20:07
Speaker
You know, I think we also get blinders based on our circumstance.
00:20:10
Speaker
You know, am I short-staffed?
00:20:12
Speaker
How close are we to the end of the semester?
00:20:15
Speaker
They're a senior and, you know, or they're the loved staff member.
00:20:20
Speaker
You know, I think those tend to sometimes, unfortunately, impact our interaction there because, you know, we just, it's part of the circumstance that we're in.
00:20:31
Speaker
So it's just remembering that as well.
00:20:33
Speaker
Yeah, those are all great points.
00:20:35
Speaker
And I think the talking about ones we've invested so much time and energy and development in and like, you know, we quote care so much.
00:20:44
Speaker
Like I remember some of them that I've interacted with, like the ones that I've invested most time is like when you see actual growth and like the next year they come back and it's like, wow, wow.
00:20:54
Speaker
There has been like, that's a really validating experience, but it always, that wasn't always the case.
00:21:00
Speaker
So I've known supervisors who have been like, I had this great success with someone who was doing terrible.
00:21:06
Speaker
And now they're already of the year.
00:21:07
Speaker
I can do that to everyone.
00:21:10
Speaker
Jason, like you're saying, sometimes there's toxic relationships that, that is not always the relationship that's going to play out.
00:21:16
Speaker
And so I think one piece of advice I give is just, you know, manage expectations on like,
00:21:22
Speaker
the outcome is going to be different for every one of them.
00:21:24
Speaker
One thing I think about when talking about the development piece is like, I think sometimes we fixate, or at least the people in my orbit fixate on goals of like, here's some goals.
00:21:35
Speaker
Like, I don't want to be late to any meetings.
00:21:38
Speaker
Like I'm not going to be late to meetings anymore.
00:21:40
Speaker
And I, it took me like seven years to figure out like, why don't, how can we reframe the conversation?
00:21:45
Speaker
So it's more about like identity, where it's like,
00:21:47
Speaker
Instead of being like, I don't want to be late to meetings.
00:21:49
Speaker
I want to be the person my boss can rely on unconditionally.
00:21:53
Speaker
And we can do that in any number of ways.
00:21:55
Speaker
We can not be late to meetings.
00:21:56
Speaker
We can come through on our tasks, put our reports in on time.
00:22:01
Speaker
And I found that when I flipped it that way, the conversation changed a whole bunch too because it wasn't just about
00:22:08
Speaker
well, your weekly report was late again, you dummy.
00:22:11
Speaker
It was, who are you wanting to become?
00:22:13
Speaker
And is this a role that you want to fulfill?
00:22:15
Speaker
And I think that's one thing that helped me.
00:22:17
Speaker
And unfortunately, it came about seven years too late.
00:22:20
Speaker
But, you know, all things come to those who wait.
00:22:24
Speaker
I think that's interesting.
00:22:25
Speaker
I don't know if this is too off topic, but in counseling theories, we were talking just a couple of days ago about how
00:22:31
Speaker
when talking to students and like praise versus encouragement and how you could say like, I'm really proud of you.
00:22:37
Speaker
Or you could say, I really like how you put in the effort on building your community and just how like phrasing that is just very different.
00:22:45
Speaker
I feel like that connects to what you're saying is like making it more personal to the student or to yourself and like how you're going to take that action or what they actually did a good job in instead of just saying, I'm proud or I'm not going to be late anymore and things like that.
00:23:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:01
Speaker
And nobody likes to follow it up on the administrative menial tasks because it's like, yeah, I could easily submit that report.
00:23:07
Speaker
I just didn't.
00:23:08
Speaker
And now talking about it for 45 minutes of what led me to that decision-making process just makes me feel even worse because it's like so stupid and easy.
00:23:16
Speaker
I think that's a really good addition of like, so we've talked about positive psychology and now we're into like solution-based counseling.
00:23:21
Speaker
Right.
00:23:22
Speaker
And I think that like,
00:23:24
Speaker
And those are real things.
00:23:25
Speaker
Right.
00:23:25
Speaker
So people listening, look that stuff up.
00:23:27
Speaker
Right.
00:23:27
Speaker
Because some of what I would say that is really helpful that I've learned similar to JC's story is that the more I pour into my new hires or whatever the case may be, and I show them a pathway of success, the more they've invested, not just in their own success, but mine.
00:23:44
Speaker
And I think that it can be hard, but it's important.
00:23:47
Speaker
And I really am the type of person that believes the more I care about you, typically that care is symbiotic and reciprocated because the type of person typically that's trying to be an RA is being attracted to a relationship oriented position, at least at the schools that I've been at.
00:24:01
Speaker
And obviously there's compensation.
00:24:03
Speaker
you have to be careful about power dynamics that sometimes people are attracted to.
00:24:06
Speaker
But if they're the type of person that's attracted to that relationship and they're getting fed in that way with appropriate professional boundaries, like I think it's easier for them to want to become the person that wants to make sure that things are going well for their supervisor.
00:24:19
Speaker
I think it's hard for a positionality of power like a boss or a supervisor to try to instill into a staff member that I need you to be the person that always wants to be available to me and perform for
Building Relationships in Supervision
00:24:31
Speaker
me.
00:24:31
Speaker
To me, that is asking someone to deliver into a relationship that only can exist if I'm also delivering that back.
00:24:37
Speaker
Because if not, then nobody wants to pour one way for too long.
00:24:40
Speaker
It's just in my experience, right, that it ends up tapping them out one way or another.
00:24:44
Speaker
I become the bad guy or, you know, they burn out or whatever the terminology we want to be using.
00:24:48
Speaker
And so I think what was really smart about what you were just talking about is the combination of positive psychology and solutions based psychology and intertwining those two.
00:24:58
Speaker
to compliment what they're doing and going to do versus, you know, just the moment, right?
00:25:02
Speaker
Or allowing them to dwell on negative aspects of things.
00:25:06
Speaker
That and motivational interviewing is another one I tell people to look up.
00:25:09
Speaker
It's a really strong combination between those three to really find out what's going on.
00:25:13
Speaker
I'm going to put that on a quote, like on our advertising.
00:25:16
Speaker
This podcast has positive psychology and solution-based psychology.
00:25:20
Speaker
Jason Titus, PhD.
00:25:21
Speaker
I love it.
00:25:24
Speaker
I didn't introduce it.
00:25:25
Speaker
I'm just complimenting the introduction of it to it.
00:25:27
Speaker
I know.
00:25:28
Speaker
We cover the breath here.
00:25:30
Speaker
Like no topic is off topic.
00:25:33
Speaker
But I think you bring up a good point.
00:25:35
Speaker
And this whole conversation kind of leads nicely into the next part about Jason, you're talking about the relationship based parts of the job.
00:25:42
Speaker
I referenced the administrative pieces.
00:25:46
Speaker
In your experience, does it seem like we disproportionately have formal accountability conversations about administrative pieces or like the relationship building?
00:25:55
Speaker
Because sometimes those things are a little bit harder to quantify.
00:25:59
Speaker
We definitely have more conversations about administrative works than we do relationship works because of the quantifiable aspects of it.
00:26:08
Speaker
It's really easy to know you showed up late or you didn't turn in a report.
00:26:12
Speaker
It comes later that you figure out that the student staff member or professional staff member hasn't been developing relationships in the hall.
00:26:19
Speaker
hasn't been connecting with their residents or helping council residents through whatever the situations may be for academic stuff or whatever.
00:26:27
Speaker
The relationship stuff comes to bear in a longer timeline.
00:26:30
Speaker
And so by the time that stuff is hitting, it's oftentimes further along and likely admin stuff has already popped up to go along with it in my experience.
00:26:38
Speaker
But the admin stuff is really tangible.
00:26:40
Speaker
A common mistake I see is that we take someone who's struggling with relationship development and
00:26:45
Speaker
And we give them like probation with admin style things to do in order to get themselves off of probation.
00:26:52
Speaker
And all we're doing is putting up more barriers for them to actually establish the relationship that they need to have to be successful.
00:26:58
Speaker
And I think because it's not tangible, people are afraid to, to try to make the relationship tangible, but there's ways to do it in the amount of conversations, connections, you know, how many times did you interact with a resident?
00:27:10
Speaker
How many times did you get one resident to interact with another resident?
00:27:13
Speaker
Right?
00:27:13
Speaker
Like,
00:27:13
Speaker
Like there's ways to quantify it if we thought about it, but instead we're just like, oh, you, you know, you haven't done well connecting on this side.
00:27:21
Speaker
So I'm going to need, you know, I need you to do X, Y, and Z. And it's like more admin work or some form of, you know, when university was, that was like a paper or you had to do this entire sociogram of writing everyone's, you know, where they were.
00:27:33
Speaker
And also, Hey, that's all cool.
00:27:35
Speaker
But while they're doing that, like they're still not doing the thing that led you to the conversation.
00:27:39
Speaker
I love developmental papers, like in conduct and stuff, because it's like it,
00:27:44
Speaker
It punishes two people.
00:27:45
Speaker
It punishes the person who has to write it and then also the person who has to read it.
00:27:49
Speaker
Typically, it just punishes the person that has to write it because the other person didn't actually read it, which makes it even worse because they can write anything in there.
00:27:57
Speaker
I learned nothing, blah, blah, blah.
00:27:59
Speaker
And the house of cards crumbles.
00:28:02
Speaker
I agree that we do hold them to a standard with administrative work, but I also think it's good when we can make our administrative work
00:28:12
Speaker
reflect our community development more.
00:28:15
Speaker
Like something we recently started doing at UCA is doing like a community map instead of just writing down like the conversations that you've had with residents.
00:28:24
Speaker
So not only are you making notes about that, but you're also highlighting like which rooms do you think are doing really well right now?
00:28:30
Speaker
Which ones do you foresee having issues?
00:28:33
Speaker
Who talks to one another?
00:28:35
Speaker
What students are involved in different things?
00:28:38
Speaker
Just so we can see that like the RA is actually making those connections and trying to develop in their community instead of just saying, write a summary of what you talked about with five people.
00:28:48
Speaker
So I think it's cool if we could push our administrative work to reflect our community development a little more.
00:28:54
Speaker
That would be valuable.
00:28:55
Speaker
You know, it's so funny what I latched onto was conversations because...
00:28:59
Speaker
it was two previous schools of mine where it became really big to quantify those personal interactions.
00:29:06
Speaker
You know, you need to have 16 conversations about academic success and transitions and homesickness and make sure you log every single conversation and how long was the conversation and did you follow up with them?
00:29:17
Speaker
And so you're almost making it a deterrent to want to have that positive social interaction.
00:29:23
Speaker
And so
00:29:24
Speaker
I'm not a fan of that in no disrespect to anybody, any of our listeners out there who do do that.
00:29:31
Speaker
It's just not my style.
00:29:33
Speaker
But I think where the accountability and the follow up on those pieces for me come from just the presence, you know, are they able to talk about their residents?
00:29:42
Speaker
Do they know what's going on?
00:29:43
Speaker
You know, I'm at a smaller school.
00:29:45
Speaker
I have just over 400 residents.
00:29:48
Speaker
And so it's a lot easier to keep tabs on my RAs and on my residents.
00:29:53
Speaker
And so versus like at a very large state public institution where you've got several thousand students under your purview.
00:30:00
Speaker
But I think when that's where it is for me, it's just that are you able to even speak to your residents or situations, what's going on with them and assessing, well, why is it that you can't?
00:30:11
Speaker
You know, is it that you're just never there?
00:30:14
Speaker
And not focusing so much on the, I guess, getting them in trouble or holding them accountable in some kind of administrative respect, but what is stopping you from making that connection with your residents and being able to have that relationship with them?
00:30:31
Speaker
I love that.
00:30:31
Speaker
The one thing I would add is some form of mechanism that shows them how.
00:30:35
Speaker
One of the things I would say is oftentimes like a hall director will say to me, like, here's a way that Ari is dropping the ball.
00:30:42
Speaker
And I'd be like, cool.
00:30:43
Speaker
So have you shown them how to do it?
00:30:45
Speaker
Well, they should just know that.
00:30:46
Speaker
Well, not everything is just known.
00:30:48
Speaker
Like we're talking about a whole lot of knowledge that comes from a lot of different places.
00:30:52
Speaker
And so if my expectation is that you go and knock on doors and you build relationships, like I'll go one time with you.
00:30:57
Speaker
right?
00:30:57
Speaker
And I'm going to knock on, we're going to, first I'll lead, then you'll lead and I'll show you how to do it.
00:31:02
Speaker
I think a lot of times, even with forums and stuff like that, we hand it to them and we're like, you know how to do this.
00:31:07
Speaker
I mean, it's not always the case.
00:31:08
Speaker
And I think walking people through, I mean, it's the same thing with brand new hall directors.
00:31:13
Speaker
Like if I don't show them where the master keys are and I don't show them like the tangibles of the building and things like that, I can't expect them to just know it, right?
00:31:21
Speaker
Like I can't just be like, Hey, go find the keys, right?
00:31:23
Speaker
Like
00:31:23
Speaker
We need to, the nuts and bolts of it are important, even if it's about things like relationships that are a little bit more subjective, the nuts and bolts of it are still important.
00:31:31
Speaker
So I think role modeling it while doing everything that you just said is an absolute perfect thing to do because it kind of also takes all the excuses off the table.
00:31:39
Speaker
No one can tell you, well, I have no idea how to do that.
00:31:41
Speaker
I just showed you.
00:31:42
Speaker
I literally was there doing it with you.
00:31:45
Speaker
See?
00:31:46
Speaker
And so now I know that you know how to do it.
00:31:47
Speaker
You saw me do it.
00:31:48
Speaker
You know my expectations.
00:31:49
Speaker
So now if you still can't do it, well, this is a different conversation.
00:31:52
Speaker
This isn't about the unknowns.
00:31:53
Speaker
It's about you intentionally making choices about the known.
00:31:56
Speaker
And that's a different pathway on the forms or that's the different pathway in the conversations.
00:32:02
Speaker
You know, and I completely agree with you.
00:32:04
Speaker
And what I was thinking is like, maybe call it elementary, but it goes back to knowing that
00:32:08
Speaker
the strengths and weaknesses of your team from the get go.
Tools and Strategies for Team Dynamics
00:32:11
Speaker
And one thing that I became really a big fan of, you know, I know there's like true colors and, and all the other personality typologies out there, but, um, I got addicted to Enneagram.
00:32:22
Speaker
And so if you've never heard of the Enneagram or if you've never practiced it, um, that was really big at my previous institution.
00:32:29
Speaker
And so,
00:32:30
Speaker
I brought the bootleg version of it with me here to Our Lady of the Lake and my staff loved it, you know, and we reference it often and it really helped them understand how each other work.
00:32:42
Speaker
And it's helped my supervisors, my supervising staff really be able to understand how to best work with their RAs.
00:32:49
Speaker
And so finding something that fits for you, I am a fan of that, yeah.
00:32:55
Speaker
What's your number?
00:32:56
Speaker
I am a 23.
00:32:59
Speaker
I'm a three-wing two.
00:33:00
Speaker
Look at us.
00:33:01
Speaker
There you go.
00:33:03
Speaker
For our listeners out there, look it up.
00:33:05
Speaker
Find your primary number in your wing.
00:33:08
Speaker
I love the Enneagram.
00:33:10
Speaker
We'll link to a place where you can take it online in the show notes.
00:33:14
Speaker
How long is the show notes?
00:33:16
Speaker
Depends on the episode and how many outside references there are.
00:33:21
Speaker
Jason, you're talking about, I'm going to show you how to do this.
00:33:24
Speaker
Like I'm reflecting now the amount of times I have started a conversation with, this is going to sound, this may sound incredibly patronizing, but I'm going to show you how we hang up posters in this department.
00:33:38
Speaker
Because there is a way to do it and there are a whole lot of ways not to do it.
00:33:41
Speaker
And this is one of those things that eats me alive is when I see posters that look like garbage.
00:33:50
Speaker
So we're doing all four corners on the backside and this is how you do it.
00:33:56
Speaker
And it's just like the amount of times I said, this is going to be real.
00:33:59
Speaker
It's like when someone's computer is not working or their phone is not working.
00:34:03
Speaker
It's like, well, did you turn it on?
00:34:05
Speaker
Like, yeah, like I'm not a total idiot, but sometimes I am.
00:34:08
Speaker
And guess what?
00:34:09
Speaker
I didn't turn it on.
00:34:10
Speaker
Well, I think some of that is that you know yourself, you know, your hot button, right?
00:34:15
Speaker
So like you're sitting there and you know, if you do this wrong, it's going to bother me.
00:34:19
Speaker
So instead of like having a moment where I get to have an extra conversation with you because you wouldn't know it would bother me.
00:34:26
Speaker
now you know it bothers me.
00:34:27
Speaker
And so that's why I'm going to point it out.
00:34:29
Speaker
And I think if we as supervisors know, hey, like here are the things that really get me, right?
00:34:35
Speaker
Like if I see you next to someone that needs help and I see you choose not to help, like that's a bothersome thing for me because I'm like, you're there, you have the capacity, why not help, right?
00:34:45
Speaker
And so I think being able to articulate those things early in the conversations is really helpful.
00:34:50
Speaker
And then showcasing how to do those things is really helpful.
00:34:54
Speaker
Because it also sets a culture.
00:34:55
Speaker
Like each one of those are data points that people are collecting to see what the culture is of the place.
00:34:59
Speaker
And each one of our places has different cultures.
00:35:02
Speaker
And so I think it's smart to know ourselves as we're engaging into this work to be better supervisors and to hold people accountable.
00:35:11
Speaker
I love how you called it an extra conversation.
00:35:14
Speaker
Like, I think that is how it should be reframed.
00:35:16
Speaker
This is not staff accountability conversation.
00:35:19
Speaker
Just view this as you get to have an extra conversation with me.
00:35:23
Speaker
Like talk about some positive spin there.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yep.
00:35:26
Speaker
Oh, because in the end of the day, it's like, it's like when your director comes in and asks you to do something.
00:35:31
Speaker
Or your VP asks you to do something.
00:35:33
Speaker
Very kind of them to ask, but you got to do it.
00:35:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:37
Speaker
It's not like, well, no.
00:35:40
Speaker
You're like, oh, yes, yes, I would love to do that thing.
00:35:42
Speaker
I'm like, no, you were just told you just came in the form of being asked.
00:35:46
Speaker
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to demonstrate my value to this department once again.
00:35:53
Speaker
And if you're the person that said no, well, you won't be that person too, Bob.
00:35:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:59
Speaker
All right.
00:36:00
Speaker
So do you feel or should we feel responsible when a student gets held accountable for something they did?
00:36:06
Speaker
Did we fail them in some way?
00:36:08
Speaker
I think we should investigate our responsibility.
00:36:12
Speaker
And then depending on what we find, go from there.
00:36:14
Speaker
I don't think we should just assume we're definitely not responsible.
00:36:17
Speaker
It's like my statement about the toxic relationship can sometimes be on our side.
00:36:21
Speaker
But I think we should investigate it by the same point in time.
00:36:24
Speaker
They're human.
00:36:25
Speaker
They're in charge of their actions.
00:36:26
Speaker
They have agency.
00:36:27
Speaker
Like typically what I find out is very rarely are we the cause of what the student's choices are.
00:36:33
Speaker
Oftentimes it's something else, something external.
00:36:35
Speaker
But I think it should be investigated.
00:36:37
Speaker
And when they come in, they say, well, they may be super frustrated.
00:36:41
Speaker
And instead of getting defensive, like I think you should listen and see, because oftentimes they have at least a couple of good points in there.
00:36:48
Speaker
I like talking about that investigation portion because I experienced my first like job action conversation not that long ago.
00:36:56
Speaker
And I immediately did.
00:36:57
Speaker
I felt guilty at first.
00:36:58
Speaker
And I was like, okay, hold on.
00:37:00
Speaker
Let me like look at all the facts here.
00:37:02
Speaker
Like what have I done to like ensure their success?
00:37:05
Speaker
Where have I maybe lacked that?
00:37:07
Speaker
And kind of vice versa, you know.
00:37:09
Speaker
And I realized I think if we're putting in as much effort as we possibly can to like help them develop in their choosing to
00:37:17
Speaker
still make choices that don't align with what we're trying to help them with, I think we can't feel guilty for that, trying our best in that scenario.
00:37:25
Speaker
But I like the term investigate because I think that highlights how it should be.
00:37:31
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely encourage you to keep that alone with that, you know, self-reflection piece of it because even as a supervisor of professional staff, you keep having that conversation with yourself of like, could I have done something a little differently or
00:37:45
Speaker
What could I have done better to maybe circumvent the situation?
00:37:49
Speaker
But like Jason said, ultimately, you know, they have the ability to make the decisions.
00:37:55
Speaker
They had all the same information that was given to the rest of the staff, and they ultimately chose to ignore or deny whatever it was, not partake or participate that led to this conversation or maybe even termination.
Managing Poor Fits and Documentation
00:38:10
Speaker
Hand over heart, like Arya Stark with her list of names.
00:38:13
Speaker
I literally used to go down the list of student staff who had been terminated in my area like every night being like, hmm, what could I have done?
00:38:20
Speaker
And I certainly don't think that level of obsession was healthy.
00:38:24
Speaker
And once the list got a certain length, it was like, I can't even remember these names anymore.
00:38:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:29
Speaker
I totally agree.
00:38:30
Speaker
Like, I think it's healthy to have some like, well, people will say, like, I feel responsible.
00:38:34
Speaker
And I'll tell like staff of mine will say, I feel responsible for the road.
00:38:37
Speaker
So I was like, that's good.
00:38:39
Speaker
Like, that's healthy.
00:38:39
Speaker
You should, but you should also recognize that there's only so much we can do, you know, like,
00:38:44
Speaker
you could have done training completely differently.
00:38:46
Speaker
You could have had more conversations.
00:38:48
Speaker
You could have had less, like who knows what it is.
00:38:50
Speaker
Like, it's good to have that reflection like Alana was talking about, but you know, at some point we got to kind of move on and accept that like, it's just people have agency.
00:38:59
Speaker
We, they make decisions.
00:39:00
Speaker
Sometimes they're not good.
00:39:01
Speaker
Like no matter what we do, people are going to make bad decisions.
00:39:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:04
Speaker
And, and in that moment,
00:39:06
Speaker
That person, whether or not you're framing it as they're in trouble or not, likely feel like they're in trouble.
00:39:11
Speaker
And a friendly reminder that we all act differently when we're in trouble, right?
00:39:15
Speaker
Like, you know, sometimes it's very similar to my two or five year old that's in trouble when I'm with the college students in trouble, sometimes wildly different.
00:39:22
Speaker
Right.
00:39:22
Speaker
But like just because they don't know how to present themselves or handle themselves in that moment doesn't mean what they're saying doesn't have value.
00:39:30
Speaker
And that moment still needs to be OK, even though they're not necessarily presenting themselves well and they're like turning it, making it about you or getting super defensive.
00:39:37
Speaker
Because otherwise, why do we learn all that student development theory to not realize that like where they are in these stages or where they are in these moments that.
00:39:45
Speaker
And the regression that happens when all of a sudden they're going back to a flight or flight, right?
00:39:49
Speaker
Or they're going back to kind of youthful responses or whatever the case may be, right?
00:39:54
Speaker
Like we're different in those moments and it's easier to be practiced on the side of holding people accountable than it is to be that student that maybe this is the first time in their life they're being held accountable or not.
00:40:05
Speaker
Maybe so many other things are going on.
00:40:07
Speaker
They're just, you know, there's trauma or whatever.
00:40:09
Speaker
But like, I think it's important to note that like, I don't expect them to handle it well.
00:40:15
Speaker
And don't take that personally at the same point in time.
00:40:18
Speaker
Don't be surprised when they're not handling it the best they can, because humans don't typically handle it well when we're in trouble.
00:40:24
Speaker
You know, you've got to realize where you are in the room, your positionalities as you're entering in, like to have the expectation that the person across from you is going to be perfect in these moments sets you up for failure as a supervisor trying to engage with care.
00:40:37
Speaker
Well, the one thing that always grates me a little bit is when people are like, am I in trouble?
00:40:40
Speaker
I just want to be like, first of all, we're not in third grade.
00:40:43
Speaker
We're not in trouble.
00:40:45
Speaker
Like you're not sitting in the corner or like not getting recess.
00:40:48
Speaker
Like, can we not talk about this as like what it isn't?
00:40:54
Speaker
So their body may be responding like they are in timeout or they are losing recess.
00:40:59
Speaker
Like, cause not all of this is mental, right?
00:41:01
Speaker
Like you get anxiety, your fingers, you know, like, like your heart starts beating, like all these things happen.
00:41:07
Speaker
You know, that's why, like, I appreciate that you try and frame it to be more mature, but like sometimes you can talk that way, but your body's still doing something different.
00:41:14
Speaker
My RA agreement says you're not going to say that you're in trouble.
00:41:19
Speaker
That's rule number one.
00:41:21
Speaker
So we've talked a little bit about the inevitable time when we've all had a staff member who like, no matter how hard we try and how hard they try, the job just isn't for them.
00:41:31
Speaker
Let's talk about coaching people out of their jobs.
00:41:34
Speaker
Is this a skill that can be developed?
00:41:37
Speaker
It has to be something that you develop because...
00:41:40
Speaker
You know, we were talking earlier about dealing with developmental conversations as a result of your circumstance.
00:41:46
Speaker
You know, we see that this person is not performing, but we're so close to the end of the semester and we've got so many things happening.
00:41:54
Speaker
And I think there are points in the semester or the year, whatever, that you start to see this is not working.
00:42:01
Speaker
And if you're hopefully doing your job as a supervisor correct,
00:42:06
Speaker
you've already started that conversation of the red flags that you're seeing.
00:42:10
Speaker
And ultimately, the conversation will just be, this is where I have seen your lack of performance in A, B, or C areas.
00:42:18
Speaker
We've had these conversations.
00:42:19
Speaker
And if you have them using examples of what the RA has shared with you about how they're feeling in the job and just getting them to realize that they're not growing in the position, they're not connected to the position.
00:42:32
Speaker
And it's kind of a disservice to both
00:42:34
Speaker
You know, maybe it's just that they're hanging on to the, well, I need the free room and board or else I can't come here.
00:42:39
Speaker
And we've all been in that position where you have that RA who's like, if I don't have this job, I can't come here anymore.
00:42:45
Speaker
Well, I apologize about that.
00:42:47
Speaker
However, you know, and that's, this is where we are.
00:42:50
Speaker
And that's not a reason enough to keep you is because you can't come to the university anymore.
00:42:55
Speaker
So it's definitely a skill that I've had to develop and work at.
00:42:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's definitely something all supervisors have to learn and grow.
00:43:03
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I would agree.
00:43:05
Speaker
I think it's a skill to be developed.
00:43:06
Speaker
I think that the times where I get frustrated as a supervisor of supervisors is if someone's trying to coach somebody out of a position, but they don't have a warning.
00:43:15
Speaker
They don't have probation.
00:43:17
Speaker
They don't even know that they're doing bad at their job, really.
00:43:19
Speaker
They just know they're not the best.
00:43:21
Speaker
And typically in that RA's mind, they're not the favorite, right, is how it oftentimes gets mentally articulated to themselves.
00:43:26
Speaker
And so, like...
00:43:27
Speaker
I'm all for developing the skill and utilizing the skill of coaching somebody out of the position, but it can't be like just out of nowhere.
00:43:35
Speaker
Right.
00:43:35
Speaker
They're like all of a sudden, you know, you're not my right.
00:43:37
Speaker
And so like typically by the time that you're coaching someone out of the position, if you go by that, like you're talking about, Hey, here's what got you that warning.
00:43:45
Speaker
Here's why you were on probation.
00:43:46
Speaker
You may have done enough to come off of probation.
00:43:48
Speaker
This is what I see it the most.
00:43:49
Speaker
Like you've done enough to come off probation, but you haven't really done enough to
00:43:52
Speaker
to really thrive in this.
00:43:54
Speaker
And if anything, like you seem miserable, it's not really a positive impact for the residents and for the staff.
00:44:00
Speaker
And so like, let's talk about like, what are other areas on campus that you could really thrive in, you could do better in, that maybe better fits, because I think the pathway that I'm seeing for you here is a pathway that inevitably you may be out of the position anyway.
00:44:14
Speaker
And I want to make sure that I'm continuing to find foundation for you to be successful, right?
00:44:18
Speaker
And different universities have different policies on termination, but I think
00:44:22
Speaker
You can definitely develop the skill of coaching someone out of that position.
00:44:25
Speaker
But I think people need to realize, in my opinion, that it's a much longer game than what gives it credit for.
00:44:30
Speaker
Like that conversation starts months in advance and builds and builds and builds and is building off of honesty.
00:44:36
Speaker
So you can't be the supervisor that's afraid of the...
00:44:39
Speaker
caring yet real conversation of how someone's really performing the deficiencies.
00:44:43
Speaker
You're really seeing, you know, patterns of growth that you're hoping that they take on, but then they don't and thus accountability or whatever the case may be.
00:44:50
Speaker
I see a lot of people try to fast track it.
00:44:51
Speaker
There's a month left in school and they try to push them off to another staff and like return replacement, but that didn't work.
00:44:57
Speaker
And so now they're just going to race it to try and coach them out.
00:45:01
Speaker
And yeah,
00:45:02
Speaker
I would say that like we are still developmental to the student and that's not developmental to the student.
00:45:06
Speaker
That's just trying to offload.
00:45:08
Speaker
And at that point in time, to me, at least sometimes I would say that that staff member probably could use more development with a student like that to learn how to do that.
00:45:16
Speaker
And so that changes my, at least my level, the difference of opinion I might have into that scenario.
00:45:23
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely have less experience with this scale.
00:45:26
Speaker
But something that we do emphasize a lot here is it should never be a surprise to them.
00:45:30
Speaker
just like what you were saying.
00:45:31
Speaker
So maybe having an accountability log or something where we're just keeping note of the things that they're doing well, but also maybe things that they're struggling with too, just so we have note of that.
00:45:41
Speaker
And they also know everything that's on that log.
00:45:44
Speaker
So it should never be a surprise.
00:45:47
Speaker
And then I also like the point that you're talking about, like following up and connecting them to other resources and things on campus, because hopefully you have a relationship that is rich enough where you know what their interests are and you know other places are involved on campus.
00:46:00
Speaker
And maybe they have a lot of other strengths, but maybe it's just not for the department or the role.
00:46:04
Speaker
So I think it's cool to be able to follow up with them and be like, oh, like, how are things going on campus?
00:46:10
Speaker
What else have you gotten involved in since you've left?
00:46:12
Speaker
Because you still have that relationship and you should still foster that.
00:46:16
Speaker
Yeah, you made me think also, Alana, that that documentation piece is so key, regardless if that's like a true letter of warning or just an email or like you said, a log of those interactions.
00:46:28
Speaker
I
00:46:28
Speaker
I have staff, supervised staff right now.
00:46:31
Speaker
They're like, was this a warning?
00:46:33
Speaker
Is this probation?
00:46:35
Speaker
And trying to get them not so stuck on a true progressive discipline plan, but more so like, let's just have a conversation with them about what is going on and then document it.
00:46:45
Speaker
In some way, shape, or form, document it so that way you have that log
00:46:49
Speaker
of sorts that we've been discussing this issue for said period of time.
00:46:54
Speaker
So I completely agree with that activity log or whatever it is that you're using.
00:46:58
Speaker
Yes, definitely.
00:47:00
Speaker
Well, that's where we get a perception issue is like, oh, I had a quote verbal warning.
00:47:05
Speaker
And now I'm emailing you to document our conversation.
00:47:09
Speaker
And then they're like, wait, this was a verbal warning.
00:47:11
Speaker
And now it's written.
00:47:12
Speaker
What is what is going on here?
00:47:15
Speaker
This feels a whole lot worse than what it really is.
00:47:17
Speaker
And no way to explain that away.
00:47:19
Speaker
Like, no, it's a verbal warning.
00:47:22
Speaker
But I just wanted you to have an account of what we talked about in our verbal conversation.
00:47:28
Speaker
I think if you tell them in the conversation, like, hey, here's what I'm going to do.
00:47:31
Speaker
I'm going to send you an email that recaps this.
00:47:33
Speaker
It's just our verbal conversation.
00:47:34
Speaker
And I think it takes a little bit of the fear away.
00:47:37
Speaker
The other thing, just being super honest here, is when we're in conversations about job action and termination, there should be some mechanism of protecting yourself as the supervisor as well.
00:47:46
Speaker
And so I think the notes do a really good job of helping with the development of the student, but also just in case there's some form of retaliation thing that comes forth,
00:47:54
Speaker
or anything like that, like still entering these conversations with care and all these things that I've said before, but just recognize that when people are, you know, just like they're in trouble, like losing jobs or whatever the case may be, there may be times that you're going to need these records to be able to go back to if your human resource department's getting involved.
00:48:11
Speaker
And so just keep that in the back of your head, especially for any new and entry level folks that are coming in that maybe haven't dabbled in this.
00:48:18
Speaker
You know, like if anything, keep your own journal at the bare minimum.
00:48:21
Speaker
Keep your own documentation, your own journal, maybe pass it up to your supervisor.
00:48:25
Speaker
If you're not really on a campus that shares it with the student staff member.
00:48:29
Speaker
But make sure you always take account of those types of serious conversations about job action.
00:48:34
Speaker
And I would argue keep those things for about three years.
00:48:38
Speaker
Yeah, and keep that journal separate from your at-home journal or else if it ever gets subpoenaed, everything you've written about personally and love life and things you want to do all of a sudden is now record.
00:48:49
Speaker
Unless you secretly want it to be read.
00:48:52
Speaker
That's your moment.
00:48:53
Speaker
But you know, and that's so tricky too because even with phones, like why I keep my notes on my phone and if it's a department-issued phone or not, man, that's a whole other rabbit hole.
00:49:02
Speaker
But yes.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:04
Speaker
Well, and if it's, like I said, three years is, I think, good on the side.
00:49:08
Speaker
If it is, the other thing, some, I mean, everyone has different policies on this and whether you delete records and what records get deleted one year after, three years after, whatever the case may be.
00:49:17
Speaker
And so just know your institutional policies on that will be important.
00:49:21
Speaker
Yeah, I'm no lawyer, but there is, it's called a sole possession file where like it is, if you're the only one who's ever read it or ever looked at it, like it is considered sole possession and is not like, it cannot be subpoenaed.
00:49:36
Speaker
So like there, there does exist that option.
00:49:39
Speaker
And now we're getting like into like, this is the worst thing ever.
00:49:41
Speaker
And here's all the terrible things that's going to happen.
00:49:44
Speaker
How is it the guy who talked about care all of a sudden start talking about HR?
00:49:47
Speaker
What's this stuff?
00:49:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:49
Speaker
Yeah, right.
Handling Terminations with Empathy
00:49:50
Speaker
That's right.
00:49:51
Speaker
Human resources, stay out of here.
00:49:53
Speaker
But if any of our listeners have a legal background or experience here, please write in and correct me on the ins and outs of sole possession files.
00:50:03
Speaker
Jason, you had talked about the RAs trying to pass off a low performer to someone else during like return or draft or whatever.
00:50:11
Speaker
And I think that is, this whole conversation is a perfect illustration of like
00:50:15
Speaker
the importance of like departmental like structure, because I was at a place that I was very thankful that there was a very clear delineation that was communicated like, you know, whatever that midpoint of their performance evaluation was anyone that it was at the midpoint or lower,
00:50:31
Speaker
like would not be rehired unless there was like a very strong articulated, uh, and exception to that rule.
00:50:40
Speaker
And so that made it very possible.
00:50:43
Speaker
And it may not be in midpoint.
00:50:44
Speaker
I can't remember what it was.
00:50:45
Speaker
I think it was the midpoint, but that, that was the cutoff.
00:50:48
Speaker
And so like low performers that only I knew about on my staff, I couldn't pass over and be like, Oh, they're great.
00:50:54
Speaker
Take them so I can clear up space for the number one draft pick on the new hires.
00:50:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:58
Speaker
And I think that's such an important point is like, if we don't talk about staff accountability, except for those moments when it's like, we're in the thick of it right now and got to deal with this.
00:51:09
Speaker
We never stopped to think about what's the departmental procedure that's helping protect the staff of all levels in navigating through that.
00:51:17
Speaker
All right.
00:51:18
Speaker
So let's talk about terminating staff.
00:51:21
Speaker
Sometimes I feel it's like Ari on the bachelor when he broke up with Becca and
00:51:26
Speaker
And always coming back because, you know, he had he delivered the news, but then kept coming back in the door and had to say more because he got to feel good about myself.
00:51:36
Speaker
How do we go about this so that it's it is what it is?
00:51:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, first, like, it's either not a surprise because it's built to the moment.
00:51:46
Speaker
Or it isn't a surprise because something so egregious just happened.
00:51:50
Speaker
And I think those are very two different scenarios, right?
00:51:53
Speaker
So like in the first one, like I'm re-articulating, you know, the care that we've had, all the steps that we've taken, but I'm also letting you know, here's where you didn't meet your side of the bargain.
00:52:02
Speaker
Like here's what I did, but here's where you didn't step up and meet your side of the bargain.
00:52:07
Speaker
And oftentimes in my experience at most schools, this isn't technically termination.
00:52:11
Speaker
It ends up being an offer to resign because we've tried, we're working together.
00:52:16
Speaker
It hasn't been so egregious since someone's been harmed or anything like that.
00:52:19
Speaker
Most of the schools, at least that I've been at, I feel like that moment's been like, hey, you can't continue with us.
00:52:24
Speaker
We'll give you this opportunity to step away.
00:52:27
Speaker
Or if you don't, then sorry, the alternative is that we'll be letting you go.
00:52:32
Speaker
It's a very different conversation when someone's misused keys or access to students or someone's been really harmed or any of that kind of stuff.
00:52:40
Speaker
And I would argue the hardest conversations are the ones where I'm woken up in the middle of the night because something happened that was
00:52:48
Speaker
terribly egregious.
00:52:49
Speaker
And the beginning of the next day when I get into work is with others terminating that student employee because of what the harm they had, because it typically is a series of hard conversations they have that day.
00:53:01
Speaker
And, you know, if they're lucky, even longer, if not, then they've
00:53:05
Speaker
needed to leave the university on that day or whatever the case may be.
00:53:08
Speaker
So I don't think terminations are all built the same.
00:53:11
Speaker
And it's hard to be as caring on the second side when typically if it's that swift of a termination, someone's something's gone really wrong.
00:53:20
Speaker
But on the front on the first side, like, I mean, you're just, I think, are rearticulating how you got to this point.
00:53:25
Speaker
I always like to tell them, because I mean this, even as you leave here, you're not an RA anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't care about you.
00:53:32
Speaker
That doesn't mean I'm not here as a resource for you.
00:53:34
Speaker
That doesn't mean I don't have more ideas on how you can be successful and would love to stay invested in that if you'll have me.
00:53:40
Speaker
And I think that's important to say it and mean it and to remember that when they're not an RA, they're still a student of your university and you're still tasked with caring for the students of your university.
00:53:51
Speaker
And so even if they were a thorn in your side for a while,
00:53:54
Speaker
They still deserve care, in my opinion.
00:53:58
Speaker
The other thing that came to mind was, I guess over the years, terminating staff has, I don't want to say gotten easier, but, um, gotten easier.
00:54:07
Speaker
I guess, I guess that there's really no other way to say it, but I think the part that's still hard is the staff fallout.
00:54:13
Speaker
You know, what does that do to your team when from one day to the next, someone's gone, you know, and some know what happened, some don't know what happened.
00:54:21
Speaker
And obviously you can't be just sharing all the details and, um,
00:54:26
Speaker
You know, that's tough too.
00:54:27
Speaker
That's almost just as tough as losing those staff members is helping your team recover from that sudden change of things.
00:54:35
Speaker
And it's just similarly helping them recoup, you know, kind of giving them as little information as possible, but just talking to them about how do we move forward?
00:54:45
Speaker
What is it going to look like from here on out?
00:54:47
Speaker
How do we get to the midpoint of the semester or whatever?
00:54:51
Speaker
And helping them recover just as much.
00:54:54
Speaker
The hard part about that is, and probably the most frustrating part about the whole thing is, you know, as an employer, we legally cannot share any information about personnel files.
00:55:04
Speaker
The person who's been terminated can say absolutely whatever they want.
00:55:09
Speaker
And there is no way we can rebut it other than like ambiguities of like, I hope you trust the decisions I make or, you know, things like that.
00:55:19
Speaker
And that's, I think, one of the most challenging things, especially your
00:55:21
Speaker
for new professionals is like, this person is saying things that are not true.
00:55:26
Speaker
And I look like a terrible person because of what they're saying and navigating that.
00:55:33
Speaker
It does get easier and not that that's something to be proud of because it's like, oh, I've terminated so many people.
00:55:38
Speaker
Like when we start talking about termination, it sounds like all we do is terminate people, which isn't the case.
00:55:42
Speaker
I mean, hopefully at least.
00:55:45
Speaker
But it's also like a skill to be developed.
00:55:48
Speaker
It comes each time we get a little bit better.
00:55:50
Speaker
We get better every day.
00:55:51
Speaker
And just like coaching people out of jobs or coaching people to other opportunities, as we may say.
00:55:57
Speaker
So those are, you know, it's important to keep that in mind.
00:55:59
Speaker
It's like your first termination is not going to be your best one.
00:56:04
Speaker
And it's probably going to be your worst one.
00:56:06
Speaker
Even though it gets easier, I hope it never gets easy.
00:56:09
Speaker
Well said.
00:56:10
Speaker
Right.
00:56:10
Speaker
And what I mean by that is that like, it's still a person across from you.
00:56:14
Speaker
It's still for some livelihood because we're been bored or whatever the case may be.
00:56:18
Speaker
So like, I mean, I should have some reverence at the same point in time, you know, you shouldn't have the list that JC had, you know, before going back and, and the names or all those things like, like,
00:56:28
Speaker
It was two sides or multiple sides of the story and to what happened and you shouldn't take on whatever's occurring at the same point in time.
00:56:35
Speaker
Like I do think it's a moment that deserves reverence.
00:56:38
Speaker
And if you ever get to the point where like it is just super easy to do, I think you should really check how your empathy and sympathy is performing in the care of the people that you supervise.
00:56:45
Speaker
Because I don't know how you can just flip a switch and not have it happen anymore one day because they underperformed for even...
00:56:54
Speaker
months on end, like if, if you're, I just don't know how that would happen if, if the care was genuine.
00:56:59
Speaker
We talked about offer to resign and there's two pieces of advice that I've gotten.
00:57:05
Speaker
Again, very limited training has been provided on how do we fire people or how do we like staff accountability?
00:57:12
Speaker
Like there's no classes really on it that are like nitty gritty.
00:57:15
Speaker
Like we'll have HR classes and all that.
00:57:17
Speaker
But two pieces of advice I got that were very offhanded happening was one was about resignations.
00:57:25
Speaker
And it was if anybody ever that you want to or try and determine wants to resign, you let them.
00:57:32
Speaker
No matter how good, like sometimes it's like people have done so much.
00:57:36
Speaker
They've wronged so many ways.
00:57:38
Speaker
Like, no, I won't.
00:57:40
Speaker
You got to be fired.
00:57:41
Speaker
Like it is not fair because of all the things that have happened for you to resign.
00:57:47
Speaker
But if someone offers resign, you just let them.
00:57:51
Speaker
And be done with it because then you've got your documentation that they've elected to do this and whatever comes after that or any appeals or complaints is like, I didn't fire you.
00:58:00
Speaker
You resigned.
00:58:02
Speaker
And sometimes I've worked with staff.
00:58:03
Speaker
It's like that is the hardest pill to swallow sometimes is letting someone who deserves to be terminated resign.
00:58:11
Speaker
And the second one is talking to someone in HR at some meeting.
00:58:16
Speaker
And I don't know how we got on the topic, but he's like,
00:58:19
Speaker
I don't know what you all do.
00:58:20
Speaker
Like termination conversations, they're super easy.
00:58:24
Speaker
They should be in and out 10 minutes max.
00:58:27
Speaker
Really they should be five minutes, but no more than 10 minutes.
00:58:30
Speaker
Once you start rehashing it, like there's nothing to rehash at that point.
00:58:33
Speaker
Like get in, get out and be done and move on with your day.
00:58:37
Speaker
And I think that's a little harder to do in reality sometimes, but I think about that often of like, just get in and get out.
00:58:43
Speaker
Cause like Jason was saying, it shouldn't be a surprise that we're having this conversation.
00:58:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:50
Speaker
I agree.
00:58:50
Speaker
So for listeners out there, those are my two takeaways that, you know.
00:58:54
Speaker
I mean, I think they're interesting.
00:58:56
Speaker
I think the second point, what I would say is they have two statuses with you.
00:59:01
Speaker
If they're an RA, they have two statuses with you in that meeting before they lose a status.
00:59:05
Speaker
Right.
00:59:05
Speaker
So they're a student and they're a student staff member.
00:59:08
Speaker
You terminate them.
00:59:09
Speaker
They're no longer a student staff member.
00:59:11
Speaker
Still a student.
00:59:12
Speaker
Right.
00:59:12
Speaker
And so like, you know, like to me, I would say that the whole, the in and out like part, the difference is I think, you know, going back to the whole, like, here's the resources, here's the things that I think would help you, I think is, is maybe a better approach that I would take.
00:59:26
Speaker
And I think the mechanism of care would be really important there.
00:59:30
Speaker
I had something to say about your first one, but I apologize.
00:59:32
Speaker
Cause I want
00:59:33
Speaker
About resign.
00:59:34
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:59:34
Speaker
And then I was, I totally agree about allowing them to resign.
00:59:37
Speaker
So the, the common complaint I hear back about me saying that to somebody, but then they win is like the common thing back to me.
00:59:45
Speaker
And I'm like, explain to me how someone who no longer has a job one over someone who still has their job, right?
00:59:51
Speaker
Like it's a different, it's a different thing to be thinking about.
00:59:55
Speaker
And you shouldn't be thinking about it as winning and losing anyway.
00:59:58
Speaker
But if you're going to, it's a faulty argument to be able to, to make, um,
01:00:03
Speaker
And sometimes the mechanism of empowerment, if something's really going terrible in their life and you're giving them the opportunity to resign and they choose to, that may be a tipping point for them to take hold of things, right?
01:00:16
Speaker
Because they're taking some control of the conversation.
01:00:18
Speaker
by choosing to resign because there are some staff members that are so bad at breakups.
01:00:23
Speaker
They need the other person to always break up with them.
01:00:25
Speaker
And in this relationship, that means that you have to terminate them because they'll refuse to resign.
01:00:29
Speaker
And so those moments will still happen.
01:00:31
Speaker
But I very much agree that like, unless it's really egregious and that you need to show as an institution that you fire the person, because sometimes something can be so bad that the institution needs to show for, you know,
01:00:43
Speaker
brand or for legally that they terminated this person, right?
01:00:47
Speaker
Like, unless it's that egregious, I always will lean towards the side of loading, letting someone resign and having them out of the position and not having them have much recourse against the office because of it.
01:00:59
Speaker
You know, it's funny you're talking about refusing to resign, and I was also thinking about refusing to be terminated.
01:01:05
Speaker
You know, if I have some advice as a rookie mistake, early on I had an old form, like an old format for termination letters, and it had a signature line on it, and the students had to sign that they received the letter, you know, they refused to sign it.
01:01:22
Speaker
I refuse to sign this, therefore I'm refusing to be terminated, so I'm
01:01:26
Speaker
I'm still good.
01:01:27
Speaker
That's not actually how this works.
01:01:29
Speaker
So whether they sign for it or not, they're still terminated.
01:01:32
Speaker
So just keep that in mind.
01:01:35
Speaker
I had this one situation, probably the most anxious I ever felt was it had something very similar to that.
01:01:42
Speaker
Whereas like an RA didn't do something like I was giving them the written warning and it was like clearly stating the expectations for the like, you need to acknowledge that this is a job responsibility.
01:01:54
Speaker
and they refused to sign it.
01:01:55
Speaker
And ultimately, it doesn't matter if you sign it or not, but this one was particular.
01:01:59
Speaker
It's just acknowledging that we had this conversation, but this one was particular that clearly stated the responsibilities that needed to be acknowledged to be done.
01:02:08
Speaker
And so the outcome of this conversation, I had two letters in my office.
01:02:14
Speaker
One was a probation letter and one was a determination letter.
01:02:18
Speaker
And if the person refused to sign acknowledging the responsibilities of the job that was expected of them, it was going to be the termination letter.
01:02:26
Speaker
If it was the other one, it was going to be the probation letter.
01:02:28
Speaker
And I tell you what, like I coded those letters with little things in the corner so I knew which one was which.
01:02:34
Speaker
And when the outcome finally came across, I felt like I was going to send the RA accept letters, like you're going to be an RA to the people who got declined.
01:02:42
Speaker
And I put the letter on the table and slid it across.
01:02:46
Speaker
And then two years later, these RAs were sharing this story that they had heard.
01:02:50
Speaker
And they think the myth is bigger than the person.
01:02:53
Speaker
And I was like, what are you talking about?
01:02:54
Speaker
They're like, this time you put a letter on a table firing someone and you just like threw it at them across the table.
01:03:01
Speaker
I was like, that's not how it went down.
01:03:03
Speaker
But if you want to believe that, feel free.
01:03:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:03:06
Speaker
So Alana, as a new professional who's never terminated someone, what would be helpful for you as either training or support?
01:03:14
Speaker
Because I'm sure there's a lot of young professional listeners out there who are like, I may have to do that someday.
01:03:20
Speaker
Like, what can we do to support people who haven't done that, but may do it someday?
01:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think just talking about the steps that we've talked about today, like I think the documentation piece is really important.
01:03:32
Speaker
But then also like potentially practicing those types of conversations, like we talked about earlier, like how can you expect someone to do something you haven't showed them?
01:03:41
Speaker
And sometimes those skills are just not built or familiar yet.
01:03:44
Speaker
And so I think just offering different ways to approach those conversations.
01:03:49
Speaker
And then I think after that, also, how do you follow up?
01:03:52
Speaker
Like,
01:03:53
Speaker
yes, they're no longer a staff member, but they are still a student at your university.
01:03:57
Speaker
When you see them, like, how do you interact?
01:03:59
Speaker
And I think that's something that I struggled with initially.
01:04:02
Speaker
Oh, I don't know if I'm supposed to say hi to them or not, because they're not my staff member anymore.
01:04:06
Speaker
But like, realistically, like, you want to foster that relationship with them and let them know that you're still there for them and a resource.
01:04:13
Speaker
And so I think just offering different perspectives of how to navigate that situation and those conversations would be really helpful.
01:04:21
Speaker
Almost like running behind closed doors for professional staff.
01:04:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I love that.
01:04:26
Speaker
I think I would also give some advice of if you're not comfortable, I hope you're not being asked to do it by yourself for the first one.
01:04:33
Speaker
I mean, your supervisor should be in there with you.
01:04:35
Speaker
But if you're in a scenario where they're not, I hope that you or any new professional or graduate student is hearing, like, it's okay to ask for them to be there, right?
01:04:46
Speaker
And then depending on the person, maybe you're taking lead and they're there.
01:04:50
Speaker
Maybe they're taking lead and you're there so you can see the first one.
01:04:53
Speaker
And if you ask them to join you and they say no, just remember if it goes sideways and someone comes up to you and they're like, why did that not go well?
01:05:01
Speaker
Well, I asked my supervisor to be there and they said no.
01:05:03
Speaker
And so I did what I thought was best for the situation.
01:05:07
Speaker
Carry some weight as well, because they ought to have been there with you for your very first one.
01:05:11
Speaker
Like they ought to be in that space with you and hopefully be having the conversation with their good
Reflecting on Supervision and Growth
01:05:17
Speaker
supervisor.
01:05:17
Speaker
They also know your staff member.
01:05:19
Speaker
They're also, um,
01:05:20
Speaker
Right.
01:05:20
Speaker
Like they know you.
01:05:21
Speaker
They're a part of what's been the development along the way.
01:05:25
Speaker
And so that's what I would say is be willing to ask for help, because even if the answer is no, it can still be helpful at the end if it does go sideways.
01:05:32
Speaker
But more often than not, you hopefully will be hearing the answer.
01:05:34
Speaker
Yes.
01:05:35
Speaker
And you'll get joined and you'll find confidence in knowing what you actually should do.
01:05:39
Speaker
Some of us will assume that you know what to do until you tell us you don't.
01:05:44
Speaker
And so if you don't say anything, we'll let you go into that room and then you'll fail and you'll end up hating your supervisor for it when all you had to do is ask.
01:05:52
Speaker
And you would say, well, I shouldn't have to ask.
01:05:54
Speaker
Yes, you should not have to ask.
01:05:56
Speaker
Sometimes you still do.
01:05:57
Speaker
Absolutely.
01:05:58
Speaker
All right.
01:05:58
Speaker
So any closing thoughts as we wrap up?
01:06:02
Speaker
You know, you're always learning your supervision style.
01:06:05
Speaker
And even as you move away from supervising staff and you go to student staff, you get to graduate staff, professional staff.
01:06:13
Speaker
core principles are still there.
01:06:16
Speaker
And so just continuing to learn and grow as a supervisor yourself and never, you know, Jason said it earlier, if this just becomes like so natural where you just let people go left and right, maybe you really need to evaluate kind of what's going on for yourself.
01:06:32
Speaker
So I would just say continue to reflect, continue to grow.
01:06:36
Speaker
I know that there's always opportunities for change for yourself.
01:06:39
Speaker
I like the theme of just maintaining that level of care throughout
01:06:43
Speaker
the good, the bad, the ugly.
01:06:45
Speaker
I think there's a lot of those things that we face that sometimes are fun and sometimes are not, but remembering that we want the students to develop and we want them, we want to support them through anything that we can is really important and will help us, guide us in the right direction ultimately.
01:07:01
Speaker
Yeah, I love that.
01:07:02
Speaker
A few things is the conversation starts early and happens often in a caring way before you ever get to that moment of termination or even probation in order for it to be development.
01:07:13
Speaker
And then when that moment does happen, if it does occur, perfectionism is a myth.
01:07:16
Speaker
It does not exist, right?
01:07:18
Speaker
It's two humans or three humans or whatever entering the room and you're engaging into hopefully a caring conversation about their works, not their worth.
01:07:27
Speaker
And at the end, it's still a student you care about that's exiting that space with you and still someone that hopefully you're willing to follow up and be a resource and a support for later on.
01:07:36
Speaker
Or even a staff member if that happens at the next level up and you're at a conference and you run into each other, right?
01:07:41
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:42
Speaker
People grow, people develop, they change.
01:07:44
Speaker
Sometimes the next time you see them, what they've been through will be so formative.
01:07:48
Speaker
They'll be a completely different person in front of you when you next see them.
01:07:51
Speaker
So give them the opportunity to shine.
01:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, I would echo what you said is that it starts with care and ends with care.
01:07:57
Speaker
These can be really difficult conversations.
01:07:59
Speaker
And so you may not be okay afterwards.
01:08:02
Speaker
And so grounding yourself, checking in with yourself, if you're
01:08:05
Speaker
You just let somebody go and they're yelling, hooting, hollering, screaming at you.
01:08:09
Speaker
You may not be okay afterwards and taking some time to take a breath, decompress and document will be something that's really important.
01:08:16
Speaker
But yeah, to anyone that's listening, you're going to do fine.
01:08:18
Speaker
You're going to be okay unless you do way too much, you take it too far and you forget to care about people.
01:08:23
Speaker
And that's typically the way that you all of a sudden aren't okay, either by your institutional standards or emotionally.
01:08:29
Speaker
And so, yeah, lead with care.
01:08:30
Speaker
I love it.
01:08:31
Speaker
People make mistakes, things happen, we grow, we hopefully make a few less mistakes.
01:08:36
Speaker
It all reminds me of a poem by Pete Hine, who was a Danish polymath, who was, the road to wisdom, well, it's plain and simple to express.
01:08:45
Speaker
Air and air and air again, but less and less and less.
01:08:52
Speaker
And I think about that often as we all try to get better every day and try and help everyone else get better every day.
01:08:58
Speaker
I want to thank Alana, Victor, and Jason for joining us today to talk all things staff accountability.
01:09:04
Speaker
Please do reach out to them and thank them for their insight via their preferred social media contacts listed in the show notes.
01:09:11
Speaker
Typically, staff accountability conversations only happen when there are demerits to issue or when staff performance goes awry, and then it's just playing catch-up to get to a resolution.
01:09:21
Speaker
So I appreciate the candor more abstractly today.
01:09:24
Speaker
I think the lesson here is how value exists in thinking about staff accountability when not facing a situation to fully grasp our personal philosophy and expectations for our staff performance.
01:09:34
Speaker
This was our second feature topic.
01:09:36
Speaker
Be on the lookout for more deep dives into topical areas related to campus housing and housing staff.
Conference Tips and Future Topics
01:09:41
Speaker
If you have an idea for a feature topic, send me a quick email at swakuhopodcast at gmail.com.
01:09:48
Speaker
At the end of this month is the Swakuho Conference.
01:09:50
Speaker
If you haven't registered yet, there is still time.
01:09:53
Speaker
I've got personal tips for anyone attending their first professional conference.
01:09:58
Speaker
Don't skip the morning on the last day.
01:10:00
Speaker
That's the least attended session because people were out too late the night before.
01:10:04
Speaker
So your presence there will build your visibility political capital and you will get more access to the presenters since less people will be around to take up the valuable Q&A time.
01:10:14
Speaker
And there are seven session blocks, so if you go to six of them, that's about six hours of content, and if each session has three learning outcomes, that's 18 learning outcomes.
01:10:25
Speaker
That's a lot of content to try and synthesize and explain to others.
01:10:29
Speaker
When you leave each session, think about this and only this.
01:10:33
Speaker
What is the one single thing you learned at this session you would share with a colleague who didn't attend?
01:10:39
Speaker
That right there is your fodder to talk about at lunch or the hotel bar as you scheme to network with others.
01:10:45
Speaker
Focus on that one thing instead of trying to break down 50 minutes of content into a five-minute elevator pitch.
01:10:52
Speaker
At the time of this recording, I've only received one submission seeking professional advice.
01:10:56
Speaker
I'd like to believe that means very few people in our region need unfiltered or unbiased advice from a bunch of professional strangers.
01:11:03
Speaker
But remember, the option exists for you to get feedback from housing staff outside your direct echo chamber.
01:11:10
Speaker
Link to ask for advice is in the show notes.
01:11:13
Speaker
And if you consider yourself an overthinker, then our next episode is going to be right up your alley because we are discussing the book Soundtracks, The Surprising Solution to Overthinking by John Acuff.
01:11:23
Speaker
I'll be joined by Jasmine Jennings from Baylor University and Sarah Frick from the University of Texas at Arlington.
01:11:29
Speaker
Together, we will overthink overthinking in campus housing profession while sharing strategies for tempering unproductive overthinking.
01:11:37
Speaker
Even if you only get validation that you aren't the only overthinker in our profession, this episode is for you because we're going to go down so many rabbit holes, it's unbelievable.
01:11:45
Speaker
We're talking committee work, performance evaluations, difficult conversations, and even job searching.
01:11:51
Speaker
I hope you join us for what was sure to be a lively and fun episode.
01:11:55
Speaker
And with that, I say to you, good day.