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011 - Intentional or Misspent Resources in RA Hiring Processes | Apefa Cooper [Article Review]
4 Plays3 years ago
It's been mentioned on the Podcast a few times how time consuming it is facilitating RA hiring processes, so today Apefa Cooper (Texas A&M San Antonio) came back to the show to talk about an article she wrote in The Journal of College and University Student Housing about this very thing. Apefa not only talks about the hours upon hours spent in the various components, but also coverts that time into real money: staff wages. Apefa breaks down her article and the various alterations to RA hiring processes to intentionally look at how we are investing our resources. At the end of the show, we talk about the publishing process and how Apefa grew throughout her experience of publishing her first article.
We have our first Reflection Guide! This reflection guide was designed to promote deeper thought and generate tangible action surrounding small takeaways. If you put anything into action from the Podcast, please consider sharing it via swacuhopodcast@gmail.com and you may get featured on an upcoming episode.
Seeking professional advice? Fill out this anonymous form and a panel of housing staff will give you their take on your situation on an upcoming podcast.
Article Reviewed on this Episode:
The Price of Hiring Resident Assistants: An Analysis of Human Capital, Opportunity Costs, and Personnel Wages [JCUSH Article]
Other Things Mentioned on this Episode:
009 - Reflections from a Black President | Adonis Thompson [SWACUHO Podcast]
010 - Read, File, Delete, or Ignore: Email Management | Monique Burkley and Maggie Guzman [SWACUHO Podcast]
003 - Resident Assistant Hiring Decisions | Craig Seager [SWACUHO Podcast]
008 - The Expectations and Satisfaction of Residents with Autism | Dustin Grabsch [SWACUHO Podcast]
Dilbert Priorities [Comic Strip]
Recommended![025 - Fun Topics from the ACUHO-I Community Forum | Joel Gatti [Feature Topic] image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=112,quality=85/image-files/605db9539a00e40074826685/733e7e3d-9d73-4dce-9fd9-65d29d14b4dd.)
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm JC Stoner and this is the Swakuho Podcast.
00:00:03
Speaker
Have you ever attempted to quantify the actual cost of your resident assistant hiring process?
00:00:09
Speaker
I'm not talking about the cost of marketing and room rentals and pens and paper.
00:00:14
Speaker
I'm talking about the cost of your staff's time.
00:00:17
Speaker
What opportunities do we sacrifice to facilitate multi-day long hiring processes?
00:00:23
Speaker
On this episode, I'm joined by Apefa Cooper to discuss an article she published last year on the opportunity costs and personnel resources associated with hiring resident assistants.
00:00:34
Speaker
Given how far those personnel resources have been stretched and tested the last two years moonlighting as healthcare professionals, I can't imagine a more appropriate time than now to take a critical look at how your human capital is being spent.
00:00:49
Speaker
Trust me, after listening to this episode, you are going to have a whole new perspective on the value of your time.
00:00:56
Speaker
Our guest today is Apefa Cooper, who recently began serving as the Director of Housing at Texas A&M San Antonio.
00:01:03
Speaker
Apefa recently transitioned out as the SWACUHO Programming Committee Chair after serving for two years.
00:01:09
Speaker
She is originally from Ghana, but currently calls Texas home.
00:01:13
Speaker
She has a huge heart for people and making them feel like they have a place in the world.
00:01:18
Speaker
Only because she enjoys hearing others share their Enneagram numbers, Apefa reports she is a 3-2, which some experts deem as the charmer.
The Price of Hiring Resident Assistants: An Overview
00:01:28
Speaker
Apefa, welcome back to the show.
00:01:31
Speaker
Thank you, JC.
00:01:32
Speaker
I'm so happy to be here.
00:01:34
Speaker
Apefa, first things first, you are actually the first repeat guest on this show.
00:01:39
Speaker
Nice.
00:01:41
Speaker
That's exciting.
00:01:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:43
Speaker
Maybe this is like on Real Housewives or wherever.
00:01:46
Speaker
Maybe this means you're the first official, quote, friend of the show.
00:01:50
Speaker
I need to start investing in the show, like monetary investment.
00:01:59
Speaker
Truth be told, it's because you're a special person.
00:02:02
Speaker
And as your bio said, very charming.
00:02:05
Speaker
And not because I've already exhausted my network.
Challenges in the RA Hiring Process
00:02:10
Speaker
Thanks, Tracy.
00:02:12
Speaker
So, Apefa, your article is called The Price of Hiring Resident Assistants, an Analysis of Human Capital, Opportunity Costs, and Personnel Wages.
00:02:22
Speaker
This is an interesting topic to explore.
00:02:24
Speaker
What was the genesis of the article idea?
00:02:26
Speaker
Really, how it all started was really looking at if we really truly say time is money, then what do we mean by that even in our
00:02:37
Speaker
our lives, right?
00:02:38
Speaker
In our day-to-day work.
00:02:40
Speaker
And so, for example, some of the things that we do at the time that I wrote this, I was actually a residence director.
00:02:46
Speaker
And so I was looking at some of the things that we do on a day, on a daily basis and looking at whether or not things are worth our time.
00:02:55
Speaker
And so a big part of my role back then was RA recruitment and hiring.
00:03:02
Speaker
And so the idea came from really asking the questions of, OK, if time is money, then where are we putting our resources?
00:03:11
Speaker
And so I was really interested in this idea.
00:03:14
Speaker
And it was exciting to me at that time because it was nontraditional in the way that we wrote this article and even explored some of them.
Impact of Hiring on Staff Workload and Efficacy
00:03:22
Speaker
And so we'll talk more about it.
00:03:25
Speaker
Well, it was also originally a SWACUHO program, and that may have also prompted a little bit.
00:03:33
Speaker
And in Dustin's episode, episode eight, we talked about making programs and articles.
00:03:39
Speaker
So I think this is a good example of how you can transition that also.
00:03:44
Speaker
I love the idea because my first job at the age of 15 was making $4.05 an hour catering at the Kansas Union.
00:03:53
Speaker
I remember thinking that if I worked an hour, I almost had enough money to go watch a two hour movie at the theater.
00:04:01
Speaker
So it's really kind of fascinating to think about what you said, time is money.
00:04:06
Speaker
So why do you think this topic was important to research?
00:04:09
Speaker
it was important to research at that time and even now because I really wanted to know the realness behind what we were doing and so for example we were putting a lot of resources and being taken away from our desk and our regular duties and so I was that's why I really jumped at the idea because I was really interested in just wanting to learn more about okay
00:04:34
Speaker
At the end of the day, why are we really doing this?
00:04:36
Speaker
But I was hoping to learn more around that idea of what we do when it even comes down to hiring RAs.
00:04:43
Speaker
Because
Balancing Job Duties with Hiring Processes
00:04:44
Speaker
when you think about time, time is money.
00:04:47
Speaker
I'm thinking about RA process I've been involved in, where it's three full days of this and two full days of that, where if you have...
00:04:55
Speaker
A full day of anything is basically 16 30-minute conduct cases.
00:05:02
Speaker
And so when you're interviewing people, every 30-minute interview means you can't do a 30-minute conduct case or a 30-minute one-on-one with an RA.
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, and it takes you away from what you're doing.
00:05:15
Speaker
But then it also begs the question, and I know you wrote about this, about...
00:05:20
Speaker
If we're doing these comprehensive processes, but we still have other job duties to do, when do we do them if we're busy for days at a time interviewing people?
00:05:31
Speaker
I think something that I remember we were on there too was the idea that even as a young professional, because these are entry level positions that are the front lines of these interviews and the hiring processes.
00:05:44
Speaker
For us, we want to make sure that we do a good job at the end of the day, right?
00:05:47
Speaker
And so we're going in with work until the job is done, not until the day is over.
00:05:53
Speaker
And so you have these entry-level professionals going in and working eight hours straight for
00:05:59
Speaker
an interview, right?
00:06:00
Speaker
And then they still know that they have 100 emails to still catch up on, right?
00:06:05
Speaker
In their minds, they're thinking, well, I need to get it done because tomorrow morning I have that 30-minute interview.
00:06:11
Speaker
I have this hour-long
Applying Economic Principles to Hiring in Student Affairs
00:06:13
Speaker
meeting that I have to attend.
00:06:15
Speaker
I have a contact case.
00:06:16
Speaker
But don't forget, I also have that one-on-one.
00:06:18
Speaker
But, oh, wait, my RA has a program.
00:06:21
Speaker
I need to attend that at 8 o'clock that night.
00:06:23
Speaker
And so you're looking at all of these times and we go further into at the end of the day, what does that do to that person?
00:06:30
Speaker
Right.
00:06:31
Speaker
And the human capital, when you look at the stress level, the anxiety that comes with adding up all of these times.
00:06:41
Speaker
And what really, at the end of the day, is it really worth it?
00:06:44
Speaker
Right.
00:06:45
Speaker
And asking yourself that.
00:06:46
Speaker
And so I know we're starting this podcast with this downer of, OK, why are we doing all of these things?
00:06:52
Speaker
And hopefully you're not an entry level professional listening to me, listening to this and be like, yes, yes, tell them, you know, we want to really at the end of the day address.
00:07:02
Speaker
And really draw back to what is important.
00:07:05
Speaker
What is the purpose of this?
00:07:06
Speaker
Right.
00:07:06
Speaker
And have and we'll talk more about this, but have departments really think through their processes and what they do.
00:07:13
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:07:14
Speaker
Well, and I can't imagine a more appropriate time, given the current state of affairs and.
00:07:20
Speaker
Departments of housing facing resignation levels, difficulty recruitment.
00:07:24
Speaker
And a lot of that goes to what you said is like, which is it?
00:07:27
Speaker
Is it work until the day is over or work until the job is done?
00:07:31
Speaker
And you just named a laundry list of things that still needed to be done.
00:07:37
Speaker
And we have to interview people for multiple days on end.
00:07:39
Speaker
So I think it's...
00:07:41
Speaker
The value of the article, in my opinion, has only increased throughout the pandemic and facing the current climate that we see existing now.
00:07:53
Speaker
I think the other fascinating thing about the article is it really, there really has never been anything looked at in an academic sense about like human capital, personnel wages.
00:08:05
Speaker
And I think it was how you all drew on economic principles or organizational management concept is a good example of how professionals can draw on research from outside student affairs and housing to make points and build proposals off of.
00:08:21
Speaker
I completely agree.
00:08:23
Speaker
And I think this article and some of the findings that we found out from this can be applied into different organizations and different departments is at the end of the day, you have to ask this question, was this the best use of my time or my staff's time?
00:08:40
Speaker
Right.
00:08:41
Speaker
And so the goal of this is not to pinpoint or
00:08:45
Speaker
pick at each process, but to really evaluate and understand what are some of the things that we do in our organizations and our departments that are worth it.
00:08:55
Speaker
And I think we've been put on there, even when you look at meetings, right?
00:08:59
Speaker
And when people say, oh, that meeting should have been in an email, right?
00:09:04
Speaker
And we'd laugh about it and really be look at it.
00:09:07
Speaker
There are several meetings that could have been in an email.
00:09:11
Speaker
And so when you sit in a meeting for two hours, I'm talking about another meeting and planning that meeting.
00:09:19
Speaker
You know, is it worth that time?
00:09:22
Speaker
And the big part of this article and something that's very different and ones that we don't really see a lot in other articles is
00:09:29
Speaker
The idea that when you draw on converting staff time into wage potential, right?
00:09:37
Speaker
And you look at, okay, if I'm sitting in this meeting for two hours and I'm getting paid 10 hours an hour, you know, or whatever, $15 an hour, right?
Streamlining the RA Hiring Process
00:09:46
Speaker
And so then I'm sitting here for $30 and then you have 10 people in that meeting, right?
00:09:55
Speaker
Doing that math and seeing, okay, this is really worth it.
00:09:59
Speaker
I was actually listening to one of the, this is a side note that, listening to the Previews podcast with Adonis.
00:10:06
Speaker
And you actually talked about this idea.
00:10:09
Speaker
He talked about how he sat in a meeting to plan a meeting.
00:10:13
Speaker
I actually had to laugh about that because this is really the same concept, you know?
00:10:18
Speaker
No, I love that.
00:10:19
Speaker
And this whole time I was thinking like, we just talked about this with Adonis.
00:10:22
Speaker
This is perfect because it's one thing to sit around and complain about wasting time.
00:10:29
Speaker
But then as your article shows, it's a whole nother, there's a whole nother level when you start talking about the value and the monetary cost.
00:10:37
Speaker
And it's no longer just like anecdotal complaining around the water cooler or making jokes about wasting people's time.
00:10:44
Speaker
It's like there was actually like, there's more to it than that.
00:10:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:50
Speaker
Yes, that's true.
00:10:51
Speaker
But on the last episode with Maggie and Monique, we also talked about emails and meetings that should be emails and then also emails that sometimes should be meetings.
00:11:00
Speaker
So it's all coming full circle here.
00:11:03
Speaker
It is.
00:11:03
Speaker
It may need to just do an episode just for this.
00:11:09
Speaker
I'd like to say it plans out how strategic I was in scheduling these interviews sequentially, but I don't think it quite happened that way.
00:11:18
Speaker
So your article wasn't a traditional like pre-test, post-test research study.
00:11:23
Speaker
So how did you go about setting up this study?
00:11:27
Speaker
So we to do this, we actually have to create a baseline and for our baseline.
00:11:32
Speaker
And what we meant by that was we took certain variables and certain variables.
00:11:37
Speaker
components of the RA hiring process.
00:11:41
Speaker
And so the baseline RA hiring process evaluated about 125 candidates.
00:11:46
Speaker
And in that included eight one-hour interest sessions, which was one component facilitated by two entry-level staff and four RAs.
00:11:56
Speaker
And on the other side, we also had one 30-minute interview with one entry-level staff in one RA, and then three 30-minute group process activities with six candidates per group facilitated by one entry-level staff in three RAs.
00:12:12
Speaker
Now, I say all this because what we did is by setting that baseline, we were able to actually move things around and adjust them so that we could make some of the arguments we made in the article.
00:12:23
Speaker
Right.
00:12:23
Speaker
And so, for example, there were times where we we took away the group process completely.
00:12:29
Speaker
Nice.
00:12:29
Speaker
And then also got rid of all everything else but the structured interviews.
00:12:35
Speaker
And so with doing that, we were able to really calculate more of the time and the wages per the full-time professionals, but then also the RAs.
00:12:46
Speaker
However, we go more in depth with our full-time entry-level professionals.
00:12:50
Speaker
And I think that also, it was probably beneficial to kind of set a baseline because
00:12:55
Speaker
There's about as many different ways to hire RAs as there are schools that exist and departments that hire them.
00:13:03
Speaker
So having a baseline probably made that a little bit more consistent from a standardized perspective, I imagine.
00:13:09
Speaker
Right.
00:13:09
Speaker
And we took ones that components that were more common.
00:13:13
Speaker
Right.
00:13:13
Speaker
And so we know that there's definitely that interview.
00:13:17
Speaker
We actually found out that there were some of the schools that I think we said that they even asked three questions or something as part of their interview.
00:13:25
Speaker
Right.
00:13:26
Speaker
We know that that's different when it comes to that.
00:13:27
Speaker
But we also know some people enjoy group process and talk a lot about that.
00:13:32
Speaker
That's a sensitive topic.
00:13:33
Speaker
And so some common components were included in this baseline so that it was more applicable to other departments and other institutions.
00:13:43
Speaker
So I'm looking at the table in your article.
00:13:46
Speaker
And just to give a kind of a tangible for listeners, you talked about having eight...
00:13:53
Speaker
interest sessions with two full-time professionals.
00:13:56
Speaker
And you figured out what like an average hourly salary is.
00:14:00
Speaker
Yes.
00:14:01
Speaker
And so that'd be 16 hours for all the interest sessions, which basically converts to $277 of full-time staff time.
00:14:09
Speaker
Right.
00:14:10
Speaker
And then that breaks down per candidate to $5.74 per time.
00:14:14
Speaker
But structured interviews would come up to $1,082 in staff time.
00:14:22
Speaker
group process was $545 in staff time.
00:14:26
Speaker
And so when you start looking at that, that's how it quantifies things.
00:14:31
Speaker
So let's talk about some of the alterations you've made to those.
00:14:35
Speaker
I encourage all the listeners to look at this table because it talks about the RAs, the paraprofessional staff time, the money, the wages,
00:14:43
Speaker
But basically your baseline process, according to this table, cost in salary and wages $4,500 to interview 125 candidates, which basically equates to $36 spent on every candidate you interviewed.
00:15:00
Speaker
With that in mind, what were some of the alterations you made and what did you learn?
00:15:04
Speaker
I will put it this way.
00:15:06
Speaker
So the highest proportion of the monetized human capital, I want to share this because then it will make more sense to kind of
00:15:14
Speaker
share a little bit more of the alterations for the listeners understanding.
00:15:18
Speaker
The highest proportion of monetized human capital in the baseline process is invested in the structured interviews.
00:15:25
Speaker
We knew that that was the biggest one, right?
00:15:27
Speaker
And so we were looking at about 1900.
00:15:29
Speaker
So $1,940 when it came to structured interview interviews.
00:15:36
Speaker
closely fold by group process, which is about 1,843, and then finally interest sessions.
00:15:44
Speaker
And so I want to share that a little bit because then it will make more sense as we're taking things away.
00:15:49
Speaker
And so one of the alterations that we made was
00:15:53
Speaker
And we'll go jump right into group process.
00:15:55
Speaker
So, yeah, completely eliminating group process.
00:16:00
Speaker
And what it did, it lowered the time required to facilitate the entire group and process.
00:16:05
Speaker
And so the total hours of our entry level and RA staff time decreased by 42%, which will be about 299 hours.
00:16:12
Speaker
I mean, that alone is amazing.
00:16:13
Speaker
Like 290 hours.
00:16:14
Speaker
Right.
00:16:22
Speaker
You could do a whole lot with that time as a department.
00:16:26
Speaker
And that also converted to about 1,843 in total wages by just removing our group process.
00:16:35
Speaker
Now, mind you, we still have the structured interviews and we also still had intercessions right at that time.
00:16:40
Speaker
Another thing that we did, too, was we...
00:16:43
Speaker
you know, in altering the number of group process stations.
00:16:47
Speaker
Altering the number of group process activities in which candidates participate change the entry level and RA time by 10.5 hours and 31 hours per station.
00:17:00
Speaker
And so this accounted for approximately $182 and $433 in both staff wages per added or removed station.
00:17:12
Speaker
And so just to kind of simply put, you know, adding a third station increases the total hiring process cost of necessary personnel wages by 13.7%.
00:17:23
Speaker
And so in altering the number of group process stations, we're able to see some
00:17:30
Speaker
some changes, whether or not we saved by reducing the number of stations and how much we added or we needed to spend by adding more stations.
00:17:40
Speaker
Right.
00:17:41
Speaker
And so overall, we were looking at close to 4,500.
00:17:44
Speaker
And I know there's a lot of math in.
00:17:46
Speaker
And so hopefully the article is in the show notes and you can get to look at more of what we're saying.
00:17:50
Speaker
But that was another thing that we did in altering that.
00:17:55
Speaker
Well, and I'll just add that if anyone's takeaway at this point so far is to be adding group process stations, you've got another thing coming.
00:18:02
Speaker
Because it's like, how many other ways, how many more times do we need to blindfold people and have them build marshmallow toothpick towers to get better information?
00:18:14
Speaker
There are two camps, though.
00:18:15
Speaker
You know, there are people that are gung-ho with group process and
00:18:19
Speaker
And really the hope is that maybe as you read this, you're like, okay, I'm for the group process.
00:18:24
Speaker
So what can I do with my structured interviews?
00:18:26
Speaker
Right?
00:18:28
Speaker
Where if you want to do
00:18:30
Speaker
do the blindfold and do stuck on an Island.
00:18:33
Speaker
What would you take with you versus, you know, doing two 30 minute interviews and maybe looking at that time and, and, and saying, okay, is it, is, will I get more information from my, from the candidates if I do 500 hours of group process, you know, versus 200 hours of structured interview?
00:18:53
Speaker
Yes.
00:18:53
Speaker
Don't, don't dog on the group process, JC.
00:18:56
Speaker
I will dog on group process until my last breath.
00:19:01
Speaker
And so your last friend.
00:19:02
Speaker
Well, another thing, and this one was also one of my favorite too, with our structured interviews.
00:19:07
Speaker
I think that one is where a lot of people find a lot more benefit from with a structured interview.
00:19:15
Speaker
And so we...
00:19:16
Speaker
altered that a little bit to where we only conduct a structured interview.
00:19:20
Speaker
So we took away intercessions, we took away the group process and the other things that played a role in this.
00:19:27
Speaker
And then with our baseline of 125 candidates, the total cost was $1,940 with 62 hours.
00:19:37
Speaker
for one full-time and one RA.
00:19:41
Speaker
So we saved 126.5 hours and $2,500 from just doing structured interviews, right?
00:19:51
Speaker
And so again, if you're looking at if time is money and you're looking at the time of your full-time professionals, entry-level professionals and what they're investing in,
00:20:03
Speaker
is maybe just doing group structured interview the best way to go for your department at that time, right?
00:20:09
Speaker
And so that was another alteration there.
00:20:13
Speaker
And then finally, another alteration that we did, and maybe some of you might find this more common, right?
00:20:19
Speaker
And that it happens more naturally is altering the number of your candidate pool, right?
00:20:27
Speaker
And so we started with 125, but
00:20:29
Speaker
And we realized that, you know, for instance, we reduced the presented baseline.
00:20:33
Speaker
We reduced the candidate pool by five candidates or even 4% of the existing pool.
00:20:41
Speaker
And we realized that we were some cost savings with that.
00:20:44
Speaker
And we want you to dig a little bit deeper.
00:20:46
Speaker
But we know that some of this will become more naturally, right, as people.
00:20:50
Speaker
as people use group process as a reading tool, right?
00:20:55
Speaker
Or vice versa, they use structured interviews and then take all of them to group process.
Applying Findings to Departmental Practices
00:21:00
Speaker
You see that your time and your wages change as you alter those two groups.
00:21:06
Speaker
And just to be clear, you did all these alterations independent of each other, right?
00:21:11
Speaker
It was like you remove group process, then you reset.
00:21:15
Speaker
Then you only did structured interviews, reset.
00:21:18
Speaker
Adjusted candidate pool size, reset, right?
00:21:21
Speaker
Yes, that is correct.
00:21:23
Speaker
And so we always went back to the baseline before we made any other alterations.
00:21:28
Speaker
So I think that brings up a good point about how a department might determine that they value group process, but are still concerned about staff time.
00:21:36
Speaker
So you can then compensate a little bit by either expanding here and reducing here or vice versa.
00:21:44
Speaker
That, you know, these things don't have to operate in a vacuum or one way or the other is like you can also balance them against each other.
00:21:51
Speaker
Are there any main takeaways that jumped out of you from your analysis or that you discussed in the article?
00:21:58
Speaker
Yes.
00:21:58
Speaker
And so one of the things, the biggest one was really going back to what is the purpose of what we do when it comes to these processes, right?
00:22:07
Speaker
What is the purpose?
00:22:09
Speaker
What do you want to get out of it?
00:22:11
Speaker
One thing that we really wanted to send home is...
00:22:16
Speaker
The fact that sometimes departments and organizations can really get stuck on the idea to over-design hiring practices or processes as a substitute for subsequent training and supervision at the expense of their staff's time.
00:22:30
Speaker
Right.
00:22:31
Speaker
And so I love that.
00:22:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:33
Speaker
Thinking that, OK, well, if I do this group process, then I don't have to train them on this or I don't write.
00:22:39
Speaker
I'm looking for this particular person because, you know, then I don't have to worry about this part of training when realizing that.
00:22:48
Speaker
At the end of the day, something I even tell my staff today is, and maybe some people will go against this, but one thing I'm looking at, are they teachable?
00:22:57
Speaker
Are they trainable?
00:22:58
Speaker
Do they have the passion to do the job?
00:23:00
Speaker
For most of the RAs and the candidates that we see, most of them, this is their first time job, right?
00:23:06
Speaker
Or their first time in a position like this, right?
00:23:10
Speaker
And so to the idea that, okay, you're going to create these
00:23:14
Speaker
grandiose processes so that you don't have to worry about some other things when it comes to training or supervision allows you to fail.
00:23:24
Speaker
And so hopefully by doing this, we're putting back on your list to think about, okay, when it comes to time and the energy and even time as when it comes to your staff's resources, right?
00:23:38
Speaker
Is this all worth it?
00:23:40
Speaker
You know?
00:23:40
Speaker
And so that was, I think that was,
00:23:43
Speaker
One thing that if I could pull that quote out and write it on a wall somewhere for every practitioner to follow, I would do that.
00:23:52
Speaker
Well, and I think you're right when, you know, as your article shows in this baseline, you spent 300 hours hiring all these RAs in this convoluted and comprehensive process.
00:24:04
Speaker
And I think sometimes people feel like we invested all this time and then it sets up for additional disappointment when people fizzle out or they don't come with the promise that they anticipated being the number one draft pick.
00:24:18
Speaker
And we've talked on this podcast with a number of people about the best training and recruitment happen in tandem.
00:24:27
Speaker
And so is staff accountability really a training issue or is it a recruitment issue in some ways?
00:24:34
Speaker
But I just think that's so important that sometimes we might set ourselves up for success because we over-design these, as you said, for compensating to be like, we're going to find the perfect candidates with our super complicated 300-hour long process.
00:24:48
Speaker
Yeah, two-week process.
00:24:51
Speaker
Yeah, that never ends.
00:24:55
Speaker
Yes, yes.
00:24:57
Speaker
And another thing that we also wanted to do was it was allow departments and practitioners to define their own goals.
00:25:04
Speaker
Right.
00:25:04
Speaker
What is the goal?
00:25:05
Speaker
And I think I've said this a lot.
00:25:06
Speaker
What is your why and what is the what?
00:25:08
Speaker
Right.
00:25:10
Speaker
And the purpose of what we do.
00:25:12
Speaker
Do you want interest sessions to be a way to do to do that as part of the interview process?
00:25:18
Speaker
Or do you just want that as an informational tool?
00:25:21
Speaker
Right.
00:25:21
Speaker
And then if you do that, can you put that on a website or can you record that where it takes only one R.D.
00:25:28
Speaker
or one entry level professional and one hour and it's out there for 24, 24, seven.
00:25:35
Speaker
Right.
00:25:36
Speaker
Can you do that?
00:25:37
Speaker
And so allowing practitioners and departments to really think through what is my goal here?
00:25:43
Speaker
What is the purpose?
00:25:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:46
Speaker
And I think I know people would say it's important to educate people about the position.
00:25:51
Speaker
And I couldn't agree more, but I think you're right.
00:25:53
Speaker
Like there's probably better ways to do it, especially now that departments have at least for two years learned how to use virtual modalities better, even though it seems we're all gung-ho to go back to the way things used to be without consideration for the benefits that we might be able to move forward with.
00:26:10
Speaker
But you're right.
00:26:12
Speaker
The point about is an intercession –
00:26:15
Speaker
If the goal of hiring processes is to identify strong candidates, how is an interest session doing that if you're not evaluating it?
00:26:24
Speaker
Like if there's no evaluation metrics, nothing feeding to a score that's being considered, it is absolutely a waste of staff time for the purpose of identifying candidates.
00:26:35
Speaker
Now, again, it may be the purpose of educating them, which is important, but that needs to be very clear to everyone involved.
00:26:42
Speaker
Right, right.
00:26:44
Speaker
And one of the statements that comes out that stuck with me is like, I'm quoting here, although it may appear the analysis focused on time efficiency, it really should be viewed as focused on being purposeful and intentional with staff time.
00:26:57
Speaker
And I think that goes to your point.
00:26:59
Speaker
And then maybe there may be some departments and practitioners thinking, well, like, I already have this.
00:27:05
Speaker
Like, we've been doing this for the last 20 years.
00:27:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:08
Speaker
There's no way I can go back and tell my team, okay, let's revisit.
00:27:12
Speaker
And maybe some people are brave enough to do that.
00:27:15
Speaker
And one thing that we, you know, even listed in the article is perhaps instead of building out a comprehensive hiring process and maybe working backwards and looking at the staff workloads, right?
00:27:27
Speaker
We know that 20 years ago, the recruitment process, yes, maybe doing the same thing, but things have changed right now.
00:27:34
Speaker
We're in a post pandemic world, right?
00:27:37
Speaker
Where,
00:27:38
Speaker
where some of the questions and the things that we do may not be the same thing.
00:27:42
Speaker
And the workload is different, right?
00:27:46
Speaker
And things outside of the hiring process is different, right?
00:27:50
Speaker
Now you're not only doing, you know, bi-weekly one-on-ones, but in between those one-on-ones, you're also doing resident check-ins, right?
00:27:59
Speaker
Your entry-level professionals are doing that, right?
00:28:02
Speaker
And then outside of that, they're sitting on committees for mental health and how to, you know, give back to our students, right?
00:28:09
Speaker
On a broad scale.
00:28:10
Speaker
And so,
00:28:11
Speaker
There are other things involved now in that play that are outside of some of the processes that we do, right?
00:28:17
Speaker
Forget recruitment process, right?
00:28:19
Speaker
If you look at some other things, right?
00:28:21
Speaker
Even if it's training or other process that you do in your department, thinking through when you look at your staff workload and look at the time, how can you work backwards so that you make sure that your employees bring the best version to themselves, right?
Exploring Job Satisfaction and Recruitment
00:28:40
Speaker
Or of themselves, right?
00:28:41
Speaker
And so, yeah, that's something that I would say, work backwards and try and figure that out.
00:28:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:46
Speaker
And that brings up a great point about, I know there's a very important emphasis and necessary critique that processes need to be equitable and fair and how are people being treated the same?
00:29:01
Speaker
And I think about even an entry-level staff with a master's degree who's been sitting for eight hours interviewing people.
00:29:10
Speaker
asking the same eight questions 16 times in a day, is the person at the end of the day getting treated the same as the person at the first slot of the day?
00:29:21
Speaker
Because I know from TPE, it's like the end of the day is just like, can it get here fast enough?
00:29:30
Speaker
And you've got to wonder about that.
00:29:32
Speaker
And so how is that being reflected in scores and how is that working?
00:29:37
Speaker
And we even talked about that too.
00:29:40
Speaker
Maybe some departments are thinking, well, if I do, if I break it up into half days, right?
00:29:45
Speaker
Well, one thing we want to challenge is look at the cost and benefit of that.
00:29:50
Speaker
And if you do half days and you do that for a whole month,
00:29:54
Speaker
Is it worth it, you know?
00:29:56
Speaker
Or do you power through it, right?
00:29:59
Speaker
And provide the necessary resources and the necessary time and energy, right?
00:30:05
Speaker
To be able to invest in that.
00:30:07
Speaker
And so that 8 a.m.
00:30:10
Speaker
interview versus that 7 p.m.
00:30:13
Speaker
interview, are those the same thing?
00:30:15
Speaker
And it's also funny, I remember those times where like right before lunch, the right before lunch interviews are hard.
00:30:23
Speaker
Because you know, it's like, okay, this is my last one.
00:30:28
Speaker
If they say one more thing about X, Y, and Z, you know, and then you start skipping the, do you have any questions for us?
00:30:37
Speaker
You don't have any questions for us.
00:30:42
Speaker
Or if I hear one more person say, I just want to build community.
00:30:47
Speaker
I'm going to scream.
00:30:49
Speaker
Yes.
00:30:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:51
Speaker
You know, I will say this, though, it's funny, it's a side thing, but more and more, they're honest about why they're applying.
00:30:58
Speaker
Like, we've had some people that say, I just want to, like, I have to, I can live here for free.
00:31:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:05
Speaker
Oh, okay, good.
00:31:06
Speaker
I'm so glad.
00:31:07
Speaker
Be honest.
00:31:07
Speaker
Like, we put that on the job description for a reason.
00:31:11
Speaker
Seriously, I can't describe how many people would immediately downvote somebody for that.
00:31:16
Speaker
It's like we were brainwashed in grad school to think like, no, you got to have a passion for the job.
00:31:23
Speaker
And that's what it's all about, which then – and now I'm getting on my soapbox –
00:31:28
Speaker
unrelated to your article, but that is what's feeding like the epidemic of people with job dissatisfaction is because we brainwashed everyone into thinking that your entire identity of passion is wrapped up in your job.
00:31:41
Speaker
And when, guess what?
00:31:42
Speaker
Jobs suck from time to time.
00:31:45
Speaker
Then it's like, I don't have an identity anymore.
00:31:47
Speaker
My identity is terrible.
00:31:49
Speaker
And that's the problem.
00:31:49
Speaker
And so now my entire life is dissatisfied.
00:31:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:55
Speaker
Sorry.
00:31:55
Speaker
That was my soapbox.
00:31:57
Speaker
No, it's really, no, I like that.
00:32:00
Speaker
I like that because I don't know if we talked about this after, you know, after this article came out of, okay, after this one, what is the next article?
00:32:09
Speaker
And I think one thing that I walked away with from this was, okay, then at the end of the day, what are we doing?
00:32:16
Speaker
Right.
Balancing Passion with Job Satisfaction
00:32:17
Speaker
I want to really study that satisfaction piece and,
00:32:21
Speaker
If we can go back and say, okay, the work is not done, but I can walk away from this.
00:32:26
Speaker
And I know this is a side thing, but that's something that I'll be interested in doing.
00:32:30
Speaker
And at the end of the day, that first year entry-level professional who was super excited for their first RA recruitment process, in their third year, will they still have the same excitement?
00:32:43
Speaker
And what could they do to get back to that?
00:32:47
Speaker
Right.
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:49
Speaker
And I was talking to my wife, Andrea, just a couple of nights ago, and I've shared this with staff over the last couple of years.
00:32:56
Speaker
It's like, do you just love your job?
00:32:59
Speaker
And I'm like, no, I happen to enjoy it more often than I don't, but it's not like I'm in love with my job where it's the only thing that is like, makes me, me.
00:33:09
Speaker
It's like, we're, we're people and do things like, but when we wrapped up so much in our job and then we feed that to the RAs where they're like,
00:33:18
Speaker
Oh, what's going on here?
00:33:21
Speaker
Right.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yes.
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:25
Speaker
And then you see the RA who's begging the candidate not to apply because it's not what they thought it was.
00:33:35
Speaker
And you're like, you're helping me with this interview.
00:33:38
Speaker
Why are you telling me no?
00:33:39
Speaker
Whatever it is.
00:33:40
Speaker
So that's a different topic, a different article.
00:33:43
Speaker
Come back next year.
00:33:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:45
Speaker
A whole other podcast episode.
00:33:47
Speaker
But the other thing I'll say, going back to the point earlier about...
00:33:51
Speaker
over engineering the process.
00:33:53
Speaker
And like, I also think about all the times where somebody, an entry level professional has like cried during draft because they didn't get a pick or something happened.
00:34:04
Speaker
And it's like, do you not trust yourself to be a good supervisor?
00:34:11
Speaker
And I know people in our collective past would say, I'll take middle of the road people all day long.
00:34:18
Speaker
And I think it was the Craig Seeger podcast episode where it's like, like we were all alternates and here we are like, you know, like I seriously had to step in once in a recruitment process because an RD left like right before.
00:34:29
Speaker
And I had read no files.
00:34:32
Speaker
I had interviewed no candidates and I just went based on the numbers from the process and
00:34:38
Speaker
down the list and it was a great staff.
00:34:41
Speaker
They were all kind of middle of the road and it was just fantastic.
00:34:45
Speaker
So there's some props to over, I mean, I guess some support in over engineering processes because it worked for me.
00:34:52
Speaker
What do you think the smallest actionable takeaway that any listener could do with this information just to put research into practice?
00:35:00
Speaker
Like what's something an entry level professional could do in their own practice?
00:35:05
Speaker
That's a good question.
00:35:06
Speaker
Not cry during draft.
00:35:09
Speaker
That's the first step.
00:35:11
Speaker
Not cry.
00:35:12
Speaker
I think just evaluate your time, you know, and maybe for you, and I'll talk to two groups here, right?
00:35:20
Speaker
For the entry level professional.
00:35:22
Speaker
Maybe this is your first semester and you're about to go through or you just got done, whatever, wherever this period is, right?
00:35:30
Speaker
You're about to go through your interview process, thinking through, okay, how do I manage my time?
00:35:36
Speaker
Right.
00:35:37
Speaker
But then also advocate, advocate for yourself.
00:35:41
Speaker
Right.
00:35:41
Speaker
And saying, OK, sharing with your supervisor.
00:35:43
Speaker
OK, I have five conduct cases.
00:35:47
Speaker
I have 30 minute conduct cases I have to do tomorrow.
00:35:50
Speaker
Right.
00:35:50
Speaker
Can I step away?
00:35:53
Speaker
And do that and then come back for a half day interview.
00:35:57
Speaker
Or can I work with my team?
00:36:00
Speaker
We take turns.
00:36:02
Speaker
Two RDs will do the first two days and the other two do the second two days.
00:36:08
Speaker
The other two days.
00:36:09
Speaker
And so really evaluating your time, assessing that, and then also advocating.
00:36:15
Speaker
And then for the other group in the room, which are more of the practitioners, and one thing
Practical Advice for Evaluating Hiring Practices
00:36:20
Speaker
we did intentionally was leave out the mid-level and upper-level professionals because usually they're the ones that oversee it on the back end, right?
00:36:32
Speaker
They set it all up and then they just check it.
00:36:37
Speaker
And then nothing wrong with that, you know, what I will say.
00:36:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:41
Speaker
Nothing wrong with just checking in, you know, but typically, you know, the director is usually the one saying, hey, how's it going?
00:36:50
Speaker
How are things going?
00:36:51
Speaker
Did we get a good group?
00:36:52
Speaker
You know, would we maybe looking at your staff time and not being afraid to to invent the wheel?
00:36:59
Speaker
Right.
00:37:00
Speaker
And to assess, like we talked about, looking at some of the goals and the purpose of what we're doing and things that have been done that we were doing 20 years ago, maybe is not a good fit right now.
00:37:13
Speaker
Right.
00:37:13
Speaker
And maybe you don't need five activities for the group process or you don't need five 30 minute interviews.
00:37:20
Speaker
Right.
00:37:21
Speaker
Right.
00:37:21
Speaker
For one candidate, you know, assessing that and really breaking down.
00:37:25
Speaker
What do I want to get out of out of this interview process?
00:37:29
Speaker
What kind of candidates do we want to get?
00:37:31
Speaker
How are we going to supplement the trainings and do the trainings?
00:37:35
Speaker
And and what do we need to make sure that they are successful in the role after I have hired them?
00:37:41
Speaker
Right.
00:37:42
Speaker
And so I'm looking at those things and assessing them.
00:37:47
Speaker
The one thing I would recommend is, and I love this, that you actually cited a comic strip in this article where Dilbert is asking his boss on which categories of priorities he should stop working, essential, critical, or must-haves.
00:38:09
Speaker
And so my recommendation for an entry-level professional is just to print that comic strip out and put it on your bulletin board.
00:38:14
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:38:15
Speaker
I think it's a perfect illustration of the larger issue.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:21
Speaker
But I think you're right.
00:38:22
Speaker
Advocating is probably a good piece and doing a little bit of analysis at, you know, in home campuses where if you are a.
00:38:28
Speaker
entry-level professional on a recruitment committee, it's like, take a look at like, what would it mean and how much time would be saved?
00:38:36
Speaker
Or what does that convert to dollars?
00:38:38
Speaker
Because unfortunately, often the people at the top don't quite comprehend the downstream effects of time.
00:38:46
Speaker
But when you start putting dollars behind it, then it becomes a budget issue.
00:38:52
Speaker
And how does that then change the tone and delivery of the message that's trying to be communicated?
00:38:58
Speaker
I have to ask, when you were done with this article, did you have a higher appreciation for the value of your time?
00:39:05
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:39:08
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:39:09
Speaker
So I kept thinking about it the whole time.
00:39:11
Speaker
There were times where I was like,
00:39:13
Speaker
okay, well, how much money am I getting paid?
00:39:16
Speaker
And not in a really bad way.
00:39:19
Speaker
I think it was just more of a joke to me.
00:39:21
Speaker
But yes, I did.
00:39:24
Speaker
And I also set boundaries, right?
00:39:26
Speaker
And it allowed me to really think through some of the boundaries I hadn't set before and really caused me to think about those things.
00:39:32
Speaker
But yes, 100%.
00:39:35
Speaker
I think there's a lot of application to this article, like in other areas besides recruitment.
00:39:40
Speaker
Like you mentioned training earlier, but I just want to provide one little example of like downstream effects of like being mindful of time.
00:39:46
Speaker
And this is an operations example because that's where I work now.
00:39:49
Speaker
But like I have students under my supervisory umbrella.
00:39:54
Speaker
And basically in the summer, one of their main responsibilities is to go walk units that have been made ready just to confirm that nothing got missed.
00:40:02
Speaker
They fill out a form that reports everything's good or any issues that needing attention.
00:40:07
Speaker
I was starting to notice that
Operational Efficiency and Broader Applications
00:40:09
Speaker
some of our students being very diligent, they would say everything's ready except for there's a dead bug on the counter.
00:40:17
Speaker
And so they would go out there and then they would come back and fill this report.
00:40:21
Speaker
And now I'm like, I got to correct this problem of a bug.
00:40:25
Speaker
And it's like, okay, okay.
00:40:27
Speaker
I now have to call housekeeping or send a coordinator or somebody out.
00:40:31
Speaker
It's going to take half an hour to like get out to the unit in, get keys, drive, get back, get a golf cart, all these things just to take care of this bug.
00:40:43
Speaker
So, or if only the student had just picked up the bug and thrown it away in a 60 seconds, we would have saved potentially an hour or more to resolve this problem.
00:40:56
Speaker
And so thinking critically about that, it's like, okay, I invested like $200 in these go bags and they have a little vacuum in it.
00:41:04
Speaker
So now it's like any little problem that takes less than two minutes to resolve, they have the equipment to do it.
00:41:10
Speaker
And it saves, it costs them a minute of time, but it saves like an hour of coordination and multiple staff time to like go resolve it in the sense.
00:41:20
Speaker
So there's a lot of application out there.
00:41:23
Speaker
If you like think about it, it's like, how do we solve problems upstream?
00:41:27
Speaker
Right.
00:41:27
Speaker
Or the opportunity costs of going down.
00:41:30
Speaker
Yeah, I know.
00:41:32
Speaker
I agree.
00:41:32
Speaker
I think it was even in one of the podcasts and maybe maintenance, the preventative maintenance.
00:41:38
Speaker
Yes.
00:41:39
Speaker
Something along those lines too.
00:41:42
Speaker
Why, why call somebody in when you're already there?
00:41:45
Speaker
You can, you can take care of it.
00:41:46
Speaker
I think it was like, maybe the RD on call was responding to something.
00:41:50
Speaker
And as you were saying that it reminded me of that example too.
00:41:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:55
Speaker
Yeah, and I think there's plenty of those examples.
00:41:57
Speaker
Like when you start seeing routine irritants in our jobs, whether it's like I have to type the same email over and over and over again.
00:42:05
Speaker
It's like, okay, well, it takes me five minutes to type the same email.
00:42:09
Speaker
Or if I just created like a little button on the email that's like auto-populates, I can't remember, quick step or something.
00:42:16
Speaker
It's like, boom, fill in, fill in.
00:42:17
Speaker
I've just now saved four minutes of time, times.
00:42:20
Speaker
Wow.
00:42:20
Speaker
a thousand over the next 10 years.
00:42:22
Speaker
Like it's really fun to think about.
00:42:25
Speaker
It really is.
00:42:27
Speaker
It really is.
00:42:28
Speaker
And I think it's also been fun to play around with these things, you know, as we laid it out, you know, eliminating, as we were eliminating certain components of it, just fun to play around with it in your role, right?
00:42:41
Speaker
Okay, this wouldn't take me more time.
00:42:43
Speaker
And sometimes I even do that with how I'm organizing my to-do list, right?
00:42:47
Speaker
Okay, if I knew that it's going to take me more time to do this versus this one, can I get it done first?
00:42:53
Speaker
Or, you know, and so even something as little as that,
00:42:56
Speaker
Right.
00:42:57
Speaker
That's how you can apply this.
00:42:59
Speaker
Because we know even, you know, we both still work in that housing realm in different areas.
00:43:06
Speaker
There was no, no day is the same.
00:43:09
Speaker
Right.
00:43:09
Speaker
I think Adonis is saying, how have I quoted Adonis like twice already?
00:43:14
Speaker
You're one of the fangirls that I was talking about.
00:43:17
Speaker
But no, I was saying that, you know, I think, I think he was even talking about, um,
00:43:25
Speaker
Oh, knowing that, you know, I think for Don, I think he mentioned this, but knowing that no day is the same.
00:43:32
Speaker
And so he talked a little bit about even like he wants his day to be boring, to stay boring, right?
00:43:37
Speaker
And it's not exciting, but also knowing that I have to drop whatever I'm doing, right?
00:43:43
Speaker
And so imagine doing an interview, doing the interview process, the fire alarm goes off, right?
00:43:49
Speaker
And everybody in the building has to evacuate.
00:43:51
Speaker
Like that's all time, right?
00:43:52
Speaker
That you're adding to it.
00:43:53
Speaker
And so
00:43:54
Speaker
Even as little as this of knowing that, okay, my week, I can plan the week in advance, but I can guarantee it is not going to go the way I planned it.
00:44:04
Speaker
Right.
00:44:04
Speaker
And being able to move things around based on some time that I can do.
00:44:08
Speaker
And can I do this next week or is this worth it?
00:44:11
Speaker
Right.
00:44:12
Speaker
At this time.
00:44:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:13
Speaker
It's that old, that military saying of like battle plans are great until the first shot is fired.
00:44:19
Speaker
And it all that is just trying to figure it out as we go.
00:44:23
Speaker
But it's so fun to, I agree, it's really fun to think about because we do these things, hopefully to save time, but you can quantify them even more.
00:44:31
Speaker
And I think this article is a good illustration of that.
00:44:33
Speaker
Like these go bags I made, I was like, it cost me $200 to put this all together.
00:44:40
Speaker
I mean, maybe a little more, but it's like, how long is it going to take for this little effort to pay off?
00:44:46
Speaker
And so I added a question on the form they fill out is like, did you use the go bag to make this room move and ready?
00:44:53
Speaker
And if they did something, they would say yes.
00:44:55
Speaker
If they did no, then it was good as it was.
00:44:59
Speaker
And within like two weeks, I calculated like 30 minutes per visit because of like a housekeeper having to go out and clean something up or like a table that they would have to wipe out.
00:45:09
Speaker
I mean, it paid for itself within a week and a half or two weeks.
00:45:12
Speaker
Right.
00:45:13
Speaker
In terms of like a housekeeper salary over that many times.
00:45:18
Speaker
And it was just amazing.
00:45:19
Speaker
It's like this is some of the most powerful things in our profession are not the most glamorous, but they're also the most effective in terms of like moving a department forward, at least in my
Apefa's Growth Through Publishing
00:45:29
Speaker
opinion.
00:45:29
Speaker
I agree.
00:45:29
Speaker
I agree.
00:45:32
Speaker
No, I was going to talk a little bit about also just when it comes to, like you said, innovation and efficiency, right?
00:45:39
Speaker
It makes our lives easier, right?
00:45:41
Speaker
When it comes to some of the things that we do, as you were saying, that you can end up talking about.
00:45:49
Speaker
So, Epitha, I always like to close out these article review episodes with some thoughts surrounding the experience of publishing and being a practitioner scholar.
00:45:58
Speaker
This is to kind of help normalize and demystify the experience.
00:46:02
Speaker
This was the first article you published.
00:46:05
Speaker
What was the feeling like when you finally saw your name in print?
00:46:10
Speaker
I didn't believe it.
00:46:11
Speaker
I was like, really?
00:46:13
Speaker
This is, wow.
00:46:15
Speaker
No way.
00:46:16
Speaker
You know, I don't know if you remember it.
00:46:19
Speaker
I couldn't believe it, but it was really cool.
00:46:21
Speaker
It was really cool.
00:46:22
Speaker
I think there was a lot going on.
00:46:25
Speaker
I do remember at the time prior to when I made the decision to be a part of it and even after.
00:46:32
Speaker
There were so many things that were happening at that time.
00:46:35
Speaker
And so for a moment, I wanted to be very humble about it.
00:46:39
Speaker
I mean, I think I feel like I still am humble about it, but I don't think my mom knows.
00:46:45
Speaker
I don't think my mom knows.
00:46:47
Speaker
And so I think I was just like, what?
00:46:51
Speaker
Really?
00:46:51
Speaker
That's cool.
00:46:52
Speaker
Okay, well, I just keep going about my day.
00:46:56
Speaker
I can't do anything crazy.
00:46:59
Speaker
I think that's really cool.
00:47:00
Speaker
It was really cool to see my name in print.
00:47:04
Speaker
And then I should probably tell my mom.
00:47:06
Speaker
Or maybe send her on this podcast.
00:47:08
Speaker
Yeah, send her the podcast.
00:47:11
Speaker
So what was the publishing process like then?
00:47:14
Speaker
Since that was my first experience, I honestly did not know completely what the start and the end process was.
00:47:22
Speaker
I think the fun part was, and I think maybe the most surprising at the same time was getting it back.
00:47:28
Speaker
And I was like, oh, that sounded way better than I thought, you know, with the editing process, right?
00:47:34
Speaker
I think that was the fun part of it.
00:47:35
Speaker
And I kept thinking, oh, they said it better.
00:47:38
Speaker
Or, and at the end, I was like,
00:47:40
Speaker
Hey, did I write this?
00:47:43
Speaker
Right?
00:47:44
Speaker
But it was really fun.
00:47:45
Speaker
It was really fun to go through that process.
00:47:48
Speaker
I think because I did a more non-traditional research article like this,
00:47:55
Speaker
For me, it was easy for me to understand.
00:47:59
Speaker
I don't have a lot of research background.
00:48:01
Speaker
And I did psychology when I was in undergrad and went straight to do college student personnel.
00:48:07
Speaker
And so, yeah, here and there.
00:48:10
Speaker
But...
00:48:11
Speaker
I always told myself, I'm not really the research type.
00:48:13
Speaker
And so for me, I had to challenge myself in this way, but it was really fun.
00:48:18
Speaker
And it was really exciting to go through the process of identifying it and then making, I wanted to sound good, right?
00:48:27
Speaker
I wanted to write well.
00:48:29
Speaker
At the same time, I also wanted people to relate.
00:48:33
Speaker
And so there were times where I just had to write it out, you know, and write out what I was thinking, because that's really what I was thinking
00:48:41
Speaker
And then, you know, when it came back, it was even better than what I imagined.
00:48:45
Speaker
And I know, J.C., you have more experience on the editing part.
00:48:48
Speaker
And so if you want to talk more about, like, really what that process looks like when they come back and it's edited and it's still your information and still the idea that you had, but it is worded in a way.
00:49:02
Speaker
better format and more intelligent format, I will say.
00:49:07
Speaker
I wouldn't say more intelligent, but I think that that part is, it's hard to see something like, and not necessarily the editing process, but like collaborating with somebody else.
00:49:17
Speaker
And especially somebody who may have more experience where like you write something.
00:49:21
Speaker
And I shared this with a number of people that I've helped edit papers with over the years where it's like, this isn't what I wrote.
00:49:27
Speaker
And I'm like, but it is.
00:49:29
Speaker
It's just it's your idea.
00:49:31
Speaker
And you communicated this.
00:49:33
Speaker
Somebody else just kind of polished it a little bit to like for the delivery.
00:49:37
Speaker
But everything you had, even if it doesn't look anything like it, it was your idea.
00:49:42
Speaker
It was your thought, your argument you made.
00:49:45
Speaker
It's just been polished up a little bit.
00:49:47
Speaker
And as you get more experience with that, it becomes a little bit easier and it helps in that way.
00:49:52
Speaker
And I think that's maybe one of the could be a very discouraging thing for a new author to have either in the editing process or a co-author come in and rewrite an entire section that that was my section and now it's your section.
00:50:07
Speaker
You're like, no, I just polished it up a little bit.
00:50:10
Speaker
Or, you know, made it a little bit more coherent or flowed a little differently.
00:50:15
Speaker
But it's still your idea.
00:50:16
Speaker
And that's the thing that I think is important.
00:50:20
Speaker
But you talk about how, like, you know, your feelings throughout.
00:50:26
Speaker
In what ways did you grow throughout this writing for publication process?
00:50:30
Speaker
Like as a professional or skills or feelings?
00:50:35
Speaker
I think my writing grew.
00:50:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:38
Speaker
And some of the ways that I was thinking through how to articulate what the message was, right?
00:50:46
Speaker
And what the idea was.
00:50:48
Speaker
I think I look back at, and I know we say more with the editing, it comes back, but I think as it was going back and forth,
00:50:55
Speaker
I realized that my writing changed and it was exciting, right?
00:50:59
Speaker
And so I was thinking more outside of how I would write an email, right?
00:51:06
Speaker
And more of, okay, how do I want to get this across?
00:51:10
Speaker
And another thing too, knowing that it was going to go out to the world, right?
00:51:16
Speaker
And the idea that, and I know at what point where I understood this, but the idea that
00:51:21
Speaker
Yes, I'm the one in it.
00:51:23
Speaker
I'm the one doing the research.
00:51:24
Speaker
I'm looking at this every day or every week or however long, right?
00:51:30
Speaker
But for somebody who's going to read this, this will be their first time reading this.
00:51:35
Speaker
And so we need to tell the story where they're able to understand it and not have to feel like,
00:51:40
Speaker
Okay, let me go back again.
00:51:41
Speaker
Like, what did that mean?
00:51:42
Speaker
And yes, ours is full of numbers, right?
00:51:45
Speaker
But the idea is that at the end of the day or at the end of the page, right, you can understand what the concept was.
00:51:53
Speaker
And so I think I grew in that aspect.
00:51:56
Speaker
And I'm sure there are other areas I felt like I grew in the moment.
00:52:00
Speaker
By looking back, I think that's one area.
00:52:03
Speaker
What about like just general, any general confidence or command?
00:52:07
Speaker
Yes.
00:52:07
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes.
00:52:10
Speaker
Sorry, I need to be so enthused.
00:52:13
Speaker
Yes.
00:52:15
Speaker
That is so true.
00:52:17
Speaker
And I grew so much in my confidence.
00:52:20
Speaker
Even when my name, when I saw my name in print, I was like, yeah, this is cool.
00:52:25
Speaker
But I grew very much when it came to what I understood about the topic and my confidence and how I was articulating what we were finding.
00:52:35
Speaker
Right.
00:52:36
Speaker
And so I will say that.
00:52:38
Speaker
And I think, you know, five years ago, if you had asked, told me that I was going to be publishing an article, I've said, no way.
00:52:48
Speaker
Absolutely not.
00:52:49
Speaker
Right.
00:52:50
Speaker
Like, and now I'm like, yeah, I'm excited to see if I get to write another one.
The Impact of Publication on Professional Reputation
00:52:55
Speaker
And this might be in the topic area that I'm interested in or, you know, and so,
00:53:00
Speaker
Definitely I'm not scared of it now.
00:53:02
Speaker
Yes, there's a lot of work in it, but it's exciting to put in that work and to see the finished work.
00:53:09
Speaker
But you also, you and I did a program at the virtual Swakuho about writing for publication as a tool for professional development.
00:53:20
Speaker
And while the program wasn't necessarily a success due to some technology issues, I think there's a lot of good points in there about like crafting a narrative and building an argument, like skills that are important for like professionals to have because, you
00:53:39
Speaker
As you want to advance, you've got to build arguments to a director or a VP about budgets or proposals for programs or whatever.
00:53:46
Speaker
It's like having another tool in your toolkit is so important.
00:53:50
Speaker
Yeah, I agree.
00:53:54
Speaker
But I also think that program is a good example going back to the very beginning.
00:53:57
Speaker
Like this article was somewhat inspired by a program that was done at Swakuho a couple, a few years ago.
00:54:04
Speaker
And then it was converted into an article that,
00:54:07
Speaker
And now it's been converted back into that virtual program on a different topic.
00:54:13
Speaker
And on Dustin Grobsch's episode, we talked about the value of like these different venues of like the people who go to a conference aren't always the people who read the journal and the people who read the journal aren't always people who read the talking stick.
00:54:24
Speaker
And how do you communicate your ideas out to different audiences in different ways?
00:54:29
Speaker
And I think that's a valuable skill also.
00:54:32
Speaker
Pefa, you talked about like, oh, you are joked maybe a little bit about like, oh, I'm going to look at this once a week or when I'm doing it every day.
00:54:41
Speaker
How did you actually balance it with your job responsibilities at the time?
00:54:46
Speaker
So at one point I knew this was important to me and I wanted to do well when it came to, you know, being a part of this experience in the process of publicizing or publishing an article.
00:55:00
Speaker
And so, yeah, I had to rearrange my schedule.
00:55:04
Speaker
And there were times I came in early, early in the morning to do it before the day started, because I knew that, you know, although, you know,
00:55:12
Speaker
This was a professional development for me and something I thought, and I do think, and I still thought the time that my department would be part of.
00:55:22
Speaker
I knew that I had to really make that time outside of,
00:55:28
Speaker
what I was doing to do a good job at it.
00:55:30
Speaker
And so I came in early and stayed in a little bit later.
00:55:33
Speaker
And those were some boundaries that I set for myself to do that.
00:55:37
Speaker
And so that was the time.
00:55:40
Speaker
And I think it paid off, right?
00:55:42
Speaker
But, you know, I look back and there are times, and I don't think we even talked a lot about it.
00:55:48
Speaker
We may talk about it in a little bit, but there are times where I reflect on this when it comes specifically to
00:55:57
Speaker
the recruitment processes that I have been involved in after I wrote this article.
00:56:03
Speaker
Right.
00:56:04
Speaker
I know we've talked a lot about other things.
00:56:06
Speaker
Right.
00:56:06
Speaker
But then I remember doing we were running an interview process and I was like, OK, well, we need to look at our time, you know, and I remember saying that and even so casually.
00:56:17
Speaker
And I thought I was like, how's my article?
00:56:22
Speaker
But yeah.
00:56:24
Speaker
And so I look back at
00:56:26
Speaker
And I know your question was more, how did I balance my time?
00:56:29
Speaker
I think in the long run, it came full circle, right?
00:56:32
Speaker
Of now, right?
00:56:33
Speaker
I use that time I put in this work.
00:56:35
Speaker
I learned a lot and now I'm applying it to what I'm doing, right?
00:56:38
Speaker
I'm thinking about it.
00:56:40
Speaker
I'm making some changes in my own career and in my own field, you know?
00:56:46
Speaker
Knowing you for several years now, I can say with almost 100% certainty that pre-published scholar, Apefa, never would have said that so casually.
00:56:57
Speaker
three years ago.
00:57:00
Speaker
So I think that shows an amazing amount of growth and confidence in the topic matter.
00:57:06
Speaker
You mentioned your department.
00:57:07
Speaker
When it was published, did anyone in your division reach out?
00:57:10
Speaker
Did you feel any gain, like, did you gain any divisional capital because of this new title you had?
00:57:17
Speaker
Oh, you know.
00:57:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think
00:57:20
Speaker
I think it was sent out to our VP or Associate Vice President at the time that, you know, had said congratulations and was really proud of us.
00:57:31
Speaker
I think, yes, it did.
00:57:33
Speaker
There were some other people in our department that also had their articles published at the same time.
00:57:39
Speaker
And so it was nice to be recognized once by them.
00:57:43
Speaker
I will say this, you know, something
00:57:45
Speaker
I will give to any full-time professional, let your department know that this is something that you're working on.
00:57:50
Speaker
And I think for me, I wanted to make sure I was doing a good job.
00:57:54
Speaker
And so I didn't really share a lot, clearly.
00:57:56
Speaker
I've not even told my mom.
00:58:01
Speaker
But, you know, letting the department know so that they can support you throughout the process and not necessarily always at the very end.
00:58:08
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:58:10
Speaker
And so...
00:58:11
Speaker
But I will say that the department was proud.
Encouragement for Others to Publish
00:58:14
Speaker
And even beyond that, there are other people that did reach out.
00:58:19
Speaker
Did it ever come up in any of your job interviews since then?
00:58:22
Speaker
It definitely did.
00:58:23
Speaker
I had an interview and at the end, it was a very, very wonderful interview.
00:58:30
Speaker
should we be reading journal?
00:58:32
Speaker
And I looked at your name when I looked at your resume and I was like, surely those are the same, that's the same person.
00:58:38
Speaker
I was like, yeah.
00:58:38
Speaker
I was just like, oh my goodness, tell me more about your article.
00:58:42
Speaker
And at the end, she was like, can I get your autograph?
00:58:44
Speaker
Because I'm talking to a published author.
00:58:47
Speaker
I was like, of course.
00:58:49
Speaker
And do I get the job?
00:58:52
Speaker
No, it was fun.
00:58:54
Speaker
It was really fun.
00:58:56
Speaker
I blushed the whole time and I was like, no,
00:59:00
Speaker
you've read my article.
00:59:00
Speaker
I know somebody had a different, at a higher level, you know, um, he was doing the interview.
00:59:06
Speaker
And so, yeah, that was really fun.
00:59:09
Speaker
I love that.
00:59:09
Speaker
I love that.
00:59:10
Speaker
Uh, the only, the only people who have ever gotten an autographed copy of any of article I've written is ones I've given away as a joke during presentations where people participate, here you go.
00:59:20
Speaker
You get an autographed copy.
00:59:23
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:59:25
Speaker
All right, Apefa, before we close out, any last minute thoughts or considerations you'd like to share?
00:59:31
Speaker
I think this was a really fun experience for me.
00:59:34
Speaker
Like we mentioned, I did it when I was an RD and full-time entry-level professional, and I learned a lot.
00:59:43
Speaker
And I would say for anybody who is hesitant about even dipping their toes in it, go for it.
00:59:50
Speaker
Go for it.
00:59:51
Speaker
Talk to your supervisor.
00:59:52
Speaker
Talk to your department.
00:59:54
Speaker
Work with somebody.
00:59:55
Speaker
Right.
00:59:56
Speaker
And so especially if it's your first time, you know, I co-authored with another person.
01:00:00
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:02
Speaker
But it was, I learned a lot from them, but then also from that process as well.
01:00:07
Speaker
And so don't be afraid.
01:00:09
Speaker
I know, I think JC has the statistics with the numbers when it comes to how many professionals have published and published within SWOKUHO and even the breakdown within the region.
01:00:22
Speaker
Like it would be so cool to see that number grow.
01:00:25
Speaker
And so be encouraged.
01:00:28
Speaker
Know that if I can do it, if you know me and if I can do it, then you can do it, too.
01:00:33
Speaker
And so get on with it.
01:00:36
Speaker
Write your thoughts down.
01:00:37
Speaker
Write some things that you're thinking about.
01:00:40
Speaker
What are you passionate about?
Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser
01:00:42
Speaker
You know, write it all down.
01:00:43
Speaker
What are some caring things that you're already doing in your role?
01:00:46
Speaker
Write it down and start building on it.
01:00:49
Speaker
And reach out to JC so he can tell you when the next article is going to be, or calls for article will be coming out so he can jump on it.
01:00:59
Speaker
And that's a wrap for our third article review on the Swakuho podcast.
01:01:04
Speaker
I want to thank Apefa for coming on the show again and spending some of her valuable time with us today, sharing how to quantify and be intentional with the most valuable resource we have at our disposal, our staff personnel.
01:01:17
Speaker
Make sure to read the entire article linked in the show notes for even more examples and considerations.
01:01:24
Speaker
Please reach out and thank Apefa for joining us today via her preferred social media profile in the show notes.
01:01:31
Speaker
Next month is August, which means this podcast has been going on for a full year.
01:01:37
Speaker
To celebrate, I've got something special cooked up.
01:01:41
Speaker
On nearly every episode, I have solicited for people to send questions in or ask for advice.
01:01:47
Speaker
So next month, we are finally going to answer some of those questions.
01:01:51
Speaker
I've been asking various guests along the way to weigh in on your questions.
01:01:56
Speaker
To give you a little taste of what's to come, we have questions about weekly reports, how to move forward in your department after not getting a job you applied for as an internal candidate, how to respond when a boss very publicly takes responsibility for your obvious mistake, and being the only professional of color on an interview team that everyone defers to when answering departmental support questions about supporting professionals of color.
01:02:22
Speaker
And with that, I say to you, good day.