Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
![023 - The Friend of My Friend Could Be My Friend: Network Science [Book Club] image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=54,quality=85/image-files/605db9539a00e40074826685/733e7e3d-9d73-4dce-9fd9-65d29d14b4dd.)
023 - The Friend of My Friend Could Be My Friend: Network Science [Book Club]
12 Plays2 years ago
This month we are using the book "Friend of a Friend: Understanding the Hidden Networks That Can Transform Your Life and Career" to talk about network science. In this episode we define the various ties in your network: strong, weak, and dormant ties, revealing the value of each. We cover out of the blue recommendation letters or reference checks, how to see your whole network, being a network broker, and the concept of homophily and how it impacts your network. There are plenty of tangible takeaways to put into practice that only take a few minutes to help keep your network alive. Get ready to scroll to the bottom of your text message list to see some dormant ties just waiting to be reactivated!
Be sure to reach out to our guests and thank them for coming on the show!
Recommended![025 - Fun Topics from the ACUHO-I Community Forum | Joel Gatti [Feature Topic] image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=112,quality=85/image-files/605db9539a00e40074826685/733e7e3d-9d73-4dce-9fd9-65d29d14b4dd.)
Transcript
Introduction to Networking and 'Friend of a Friend'
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Swakuho podcast.
00:00:02
Speaker
Back on episode 18, we talked with Trey Stermer, Norma Ramirez, Felicia Perodin about building and fostering relationships with corporate partners.
00:00:13
Speaker
Today, we are revisiting the topic of networking by facilitating our third book club, where we are talking about the book, Friend of a Friend, Understanding Hidden Networks That Can Transform Your Life by David Berkus.
00:00:25
Speaker
We're gonna talk about the value of weak and dormant network ties, seeing your whole network, being network brokers, filling structural gaps, and much, much more.
00:00:35
Speaker
To help us today, we have a former Swakuho member and our very first non-university employee or corporate partner.
Dylan and Sean's Professional Backgrounds
00:00:45
Speaker
Our first guest is Dylan Linder, who recently began serving as a community director at Georgetown University.
00:00:52
Speaker
Dylan got his start as a criminology and criminal justice major looking ahead to go to law school.
00:00:58
Speaker
After three years of legal experience, he decided that law school may not have been the best fit for him.
00:01:04
Speaker
With encouragement from his mentors and friends, Dylan began graduate school at Texas A&M University in 2021, seeking a Master's of Science degree in Student Affairs Administration and Higher Education.
00:01:17
Speaker
Throughout his professional career, Dylan has been intentional about networking and meeting people throughout his different experiences that have taken his journey through five states.
00:01:26
Speaker
Something unique about Dylan is that he has a vast array of interests from social sciences and history to music and creating things with his hands.
00:01:35
Speaker
Dylan, welcome to the show.
00:01:37
Speaker
Thanks for having me here.
00:01:40
Speaker
Our second guest is Sean Garrett, founder of Garrett PLLC, a law firm focused on serving the needs of businesses and their founders.
00:01:48
Speaker
As a business owner himself, Sean knows the advice and counsel needed by business owners at their different stages, including formation, purchase, growth, and sale.
00:01:59
Speaker
Sean has represented many companies, large and small, from startups to institutional investors.
00:02:05
Speaker
As a business lawyer, Sean knows the concerns of companies, their key employees, and how to advise them in their roles.
00:02:13
Speaker
Sean, welcome to the show.
00:02:16
Speaker
JC, thank you so much for having me.
00:02:18
Speaker
Look forward to being here.
00:02:20
Speaker
Good to hear it.
00:02:21
Speaker
Well, first things first, since we're talking about networking, Dylan, would you mind sharing how exactly the three of us know each other and how it came to be that we're all here today?
00:02:32
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:02:32
Speaker
So I, as a first year grad student, kind of jumped at the opportunity of going to a regional housing conference, which was Fukuho.
00:02:42
Speaker
Had a great experience there and took on some leadership roles with the programming committee my second year.
00:02:47
Speaker
And that's how I kind of met you, JC.
00:02:49
Speaker
And then prior to going to grad school in general, I met Sean.
00:02:53
Speaker
He was actually my managing paralegal or my managing attorney.
00:02:57
Speaker
I was his paralegal.
00:02:59
Speaker
And he's kind of did some advising and mentorship to actually get me back into grad school.
00:03:06
Speaker
I know we had some pretty intentional conversations in our time together.
00:03:10
Speaker
And so when we started talking about networking and kind of how I got here, I started thinking about Sean.
00:03:14
Speaker
And so connected you and Sean.
00:03:15
Speaker
And now here we are.
00:03:17
Speaker
And here we are.
00:03:19
Speaker
I love that word intentionality.
00:03:21
Speaker
You know, being intentional about those relationships, I think is so important to mentorship.
00:03:26
Speaker
So thanks for, thanks for using that word unintentionally.
00:03:30
Speaker
Well, no, it's very true that, I mean, we'll get into this, I'm sure, but networking is really like, how intentional are you in facilitating relationships and building them and more like fostering them over long
Reality vs. Fiction in Legal Professions
00:03:42
Speaker
periods of time?
00:03:42
Speaker
I mean, I think that's right.
00:03:44
Speaker
Exactly right.
00:03:47
Speaker
I have to ask you, since you both have legal backgrounds, is one of my favorite TV shows is Suits.
00:03:51
Speaker
Are you two familiar?
00:03:53
Speaker
And how real is it?
00:03:58
Speaker
So I can take it from a paralegal perspective for sure.
00:04:01
Speaker
I think about the paralegal and I don't know her name, but she sits in her office.
00:04:05
Speaker
Rachel.
00:04:05
Speaker
And Rachel always gets the hard stuff and the stuff that you have to go and research intently.
00:04:11
Speaker
And I think that that's pretty accurate in my legal experience.
00:04:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:16
Speaker
Maybe less so working with Sean, but definitely in my prior legal experience, they would hand me files and tell me to kind of run with them and see what I could find.
00:04:25
Speaker
And it's kind of like a needle in a haystack.
00:04:27
Speaker
And you take back an empty folder and it's like, this is what I found.
00:04:30
Speaker
But thank you so much.
00:04:33
Speaker
I think...
00:04:35
Speaker
I'm actually rewatching the show, JC, so it's interesting that you bring it up.
00:04:38
Speaker
I think of all the characters on the show, the one that's the most spot on is an attorney by the name of Katrina.
00:04:44
Speaker
Now, Katrina, she is, you know, very smart attorney, extremely loyal.
00:04:51
Speaker
But don't cross her.
00:04:52
Speaker
You know, if you get on her bad side, it's hard to, you know, to change her mindset.
00:04:56
Speaker
But the thing that I think is the most important about her character is that she's constantly searching for affirmation of some sort.
00:05:04
Speaker
And I feel like that's just every attorney that I've ever known.
00:05:08
Speaker
From the most successful to, you know, people just enrolling in law school.
00:05:12
Speaker
Everyone's looking for affirmation of some sort.
00:05:14
Speaker
So great show.
00:05:15
Speaker
We all want to be Harvey, though.
00:05:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:19
Speaker
I too am re-watching the show as we speak.
00:05:22
Speaker
So yes, it's so good.
00:05:26
Speaker
Number one takeaway so far is start
Understanding Network Ties
00:05:28
Speaker
watching Suits.
00:05:28
Speaker
It's on Netflix these days.
00:05:31
Speaker
Exactly.
00:05:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:32
Speaker
It really upset me when they moved from Amazon Prime because then I had to like restart it.
00:05:37
Speaker
it wasn't automatically populating so on where i left off but anyway first starting suits isn't a bad problem though season one's probably the best season oh yes it's just so much drama yeah all right anyway let's start with we're looking at networks and we can call the people in our network do like ties
00:05:58
Speaker
There's strong ties, there's weak ties, and there are dormant ties.
00:06:01
Speaker
And the book talks a lot about these ties, so we'll keep coming back to that.
00:06:05
Speaker
So what are we talking about when we're talking about the various ties and what are some examples?
00:06:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:12
Speaker
So I think a strong tie, I think a good example is like Sean.
00:06:15
Speaker
It's somebody who I think has intentionality behind the relationship that's built and they continue coming back to that central purpose of the connection or being a mentor, pieces like that.
00:06:29
Speaker
I think more so mentorship might be a better word than a strong tie, at least for me.
00:06:33
Speaker
But I think Sean is a good example of a strong tie and having that continued relationship.
00:06:38
Speaker
Throughout longevity, no matter how long it takes, we continue to kind of come back to the relationship that we built and fostered.
00:06:46
Speaker
I think that's a great point, Dylan.
00:06:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:48
Speaker
You know, it's always interesting to me being a business owner for the last year, year and a half.
00:06:54
Speaker
the ties that intersect each other.
00:06:57
Speaker
I got a text last Friday from a gentleman that I do business with, but I also golf with him and play pickleball.
00:07:03
Speaker
So we're friends as well as business acquaintances.
00:07:07
Speaker
But he told me that he was at a networking event and someone said, I need a business attorney.
00:07:12
Speaker
And he suggested me, but then also another gentleman he didn't know suggested me as well.
00:07:16
Speaker
So then they got together and said, how do you know, Sean?
00:07:20
Speaker
And then, you know, those ties intersected.
00:07:22
Speaker
And next thing you know, the network's growing out further.
00:07:26
Speaker
I think about it, you know, kind of like Dylan brought up in two different ways.
00:07:29
Speaker
We never know where those ties are going to take us.
00:07:31
Speaker
We never know where the end of that string is.
00:07:33
Speaker
But seeing how they overlap and they intertwine, you know, week after week, day after day is it's pretty cool.
00:07:40
Speaker
It's really cool to see.
00:07:42
Speaker
Yeah, the way you described that, when we talk about, like, quote, network science, it really is kind of a science.
00:07:50
Speaker
And I just think about looking at big webs and how people are connected.
00:07:54
Speaker
And when I think about strong ties in my network, I think about, like, the people in my office I see every day.
00:07:59
Speaker
Like, whether we like each other or not, like, we're tied together very strongly because we see each other all day, every day.
00:08:06
Speaker
So then by comparison, what would be, like, a weak tie or, like, a dormant tie?
00:08:13
Speaker
Kind of going off what you said about a strong tie, I think a weak tie is someone you maybe meet a couple of times, don't necessarily have like intentionality behind the connection or it's just kind of brief.
00:08:24
Speaker
So if there is intention, there may be something that you can bring up and in a conversation.
00:08:28
Speaker
So if JC, if you and I had talked once, then maybe I could come back and say, hey, like I know that we talked about this the first time.
00:08:34
Speaker
And I think it leaves a lot of room to build.
00:08:36
Speaker
But sometimes I think there just has to be enough there that you can go back and revisit for it to be like an intentional like
00:08:43
Speaker
weaker tie.
00:08:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:45
Speaker
And then our, our dormant ties are the people I think of, like I've worked with in the past who we haven't really stayed in touch, but you know, maybe we run into each other at a car.
00:08:55
Speaker
Like I think about old RAs who I supervised or old hall directors I supervise it.
00:09:01
Speaker
You know, we don't talk every day, every week, every month, sometimes even every year, but they're still part of my network, but they just might be a little more dormant that I could reactivate at any time.
00:09:12
Speaker
I guess is how I would look at that.
00:09:14
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:09:15
Speaker
I think kind of building on that too, I think a dormant tie I've recently connected with was the vice president at an institution that I've really had experience at.
00:09:24
Speaker
Can I say the name of it?
00:09:25
Speaker
Is that okay?
00:09:26
Speaker
You can say whatever you want, Dylan.
00:09:28
Speaker
Oh, snap.
00:09:30
Speaker
So recently I connected with a dormant tie with one of the with our dean of students at the University of South Carolina.
00:09:37
Speaker
I connected with him once in my last summer before transitioning to grad school and picked up his dissertation.
00:09:42
Speaker
I was like, this is actually kind of cool.
00:09:44
Speaker
Like, let's let's ask him about this.
00:09:45
Speaker
So I sent him a message on LinkedIn with some intentionality behind it of, hey, like I was looking over.
00:09:52
Speaker
your CV and just seeing kind of what you were interested in and found this.
00:09:56
Speaker
And that afternoon, he messaged me back and he was like, hey, call me anytime that you're free.
00:10:00
Speaker
And we can talk about like where you're trying to go, why you're interested in this topic and provided a lot of in-depth advice, discussion kind of around a PhD program or around whatever the next step is.
00:10:14
Speaker
But I think that was a really interesting dormant time at this guy once and he remembered me by name.
00:10:18
Speaker
And I was like, this is really, really cool.
00:10:20
Speaker
And that's a good example of a dormant tie.
00:10:23
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
00:10:24
Speaker
Well, and I think that's a great example of how do you foster a relationship?
00:10:27
Speaker
Like if there's research out there, things people have published or unique things, and we'll probably come back to this.
00:10:32
Speaker
But I mean, I've had people reach out about articles I published, and it's like, we don't even we've never met like we are not ties until you sent that email.
00:10:40
Speaker
And now we are and whether or not it becomes strong or weak or dormant or anything at all.
00:10:44
Speaker
It's just
00:10:45
Speaker
The opportunity is there, whether it's, hey, I read your article, I thought it was neat, or hey, I saw you had a baby, or saw you bought a house or whatever.
00:10:53
Speaker
It's like there's plenty of things out there that can easily
Rekindling Dormant Ties
00:10:57
Speaker
reconnect or activate those ties.
00:11:00
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:11:01
Speaker
When we talk about nodes in our network and ties, I often think of like recommendation letters.
00:11:07
Speaker
And I can't tell you how many times I've had people who have reached out, and as soon as I see their message, I know exactly what they're going to be asking.
00:11:15
Speaker
They're going to be asking, hey, I'm applying for a job.
00:11:17
Speaker
Can you give me a recommendation letter?
00:11:19
Speaker
And I stop and think, we have not talked for three years.
00:11:25
Speaker
I always think about like the problem, the quote from the book is like the problem with most of us is we, when we meet someone is we assume that if they are not immediately useful to me now, then it's a waste of my time.
00:11:36
Speaker
And that always comes up in my head when this is like, oh, they need me.
00:11:40
Speaker
So now they're reaching out, but there hasn't been any sort of like fostering along the way.
00:11:45
Speaker
Either way.
00:11:46
Speaker
So is this a problem?
00:11:49
Speaker
How do we avoid this?
00:11:51
Speaker
What are your both thoughts?
00:11:53
Speaker
I think typically when I, so I've been in a few different positions now.
00:11:58
Speaker
And typically what I'll do when I come into an organization is try to identify at least a few people that I'm either going to work with pretty closely that could provide a strong recommendation or someone that I hope to build that relationship with or use as a mentor of sorts for a recommendation.
00:12:15
Speaker
I think when you reach back to three years, like a lot happens in three years.
00:12:20
Speaker
Like I was working with Sean three years ago and I'm a completely, I wouldn't say different person, but a lot has changed since then.
00:12:26
Speaker
And so it's like, how do you, how does the recommender give like a,
00:12:30
Speaker
accurate representation of your strong, like your strengths, your weaknesses, or kind of what you're interested in at that point, if it's been so long.
00:12:38
Speaker
I think that would be difficult.
00:12:40
Speaker
I haven't written a lot of recommendation for someone three years ago, or from three years ago, but I think that that would be relatively hard.
00:12:49
Speaker
So, Sean, let's do a hypothetical here.
00:12:51
Speaker
If Dylan had you had not stayed in touch and today Dylan reached out to you and said, hey, I'm applying for a job and was wondering if you would serve as a reference, what would you think?
00:13:03
Speaker
So it's interesting hearing both of your feedback, because I know that you guys are pretty entrenched in academia, in the academic setting.
00:13:13
Speaker
So the answer would definitely depend on my tie and relationship to the person, of course.
00:13:19
Speaker
But the question that I've asked myself, because I've been in this position before, is why are they asking me?
00:13:25
Speaker
And so I try to think back on the relationship and I try to see if there's some positivity or some, what's the word I want to use?
00:13:35
Speaker
Some outstanding credential that they had in our relationship that they want me to highlight.
00:13:41
Speaker
And if I could speak to that, I would definitely write the letter.
00:13:44
Speaker
But if the relationship's just too far gone or if I don't have anything to write about, I would tell them that.
00:13:51
Speaker
The flip side of that, and this is a little bit more maybe psychological, maybe sociological, I'm not sure, but if they're truly coming to me, I end up feeling bad and I say, is there truly no one else in your life that you can go to?
00:14:03
Speaker
And maybe that's a mentoring opportunity where we start dialing in on what have you been doing the last year?
00:14:09
Speaker
Okay, maybe your relationship with your boss isn't that great.
00:14:12
Speaker
Who else in your organization could write that letter?
00:14:14
Speaker
And that's just me wanting to help them out.
00:14:16
Speaker
But to your point, three years,
00:14:20
Speaker
without some type of reasoning is it's it's hard it's it's not beneficial for the writer or the person getting it written for absolutely and i think the point then is like there's some there is a node in my network that i mean has kind of become less than dormant in the last like five years but i scrolled back through our text message exchange from like
00:14:46
Speaker
five to 10 years ago.
00:14:48
Speaker
And literally it was, hey, I'm applying for this new job.
00:14:51
Speaker
Would you serve as a reference for me?
00:14:53
Speaker
Sure, of course, kind of, Sean, what you were talking about, here's the things I'm capable of doing right now based on the longevity or the distance between our relationship.
00:15:02
Speaker
And then several weeks later, a month, hey, how'd that go?
00:15:06
Speaker
Heard you got the job.
00:15:07
Speaker
Are you liking it?
00:15:08
Speaker
Nothing, nothing, nothing, no response, no response, no response.
00:15:10
Speaker
Then, hey, I'm applying for a new job.
00:15:13
Speaker
Will you serve as a reference?
00:15:15
Speaker
And so like I try and foster certain relationships that there's no response until they need something.
00:15:22
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's different.
00:15:24
Speaker
In that case, that person's not getting a letter from me.
00:15:28
Speaker
You know, the the dog that you feed is the one that's going to be the strongest.
00:15:33
Speaker
And, you know, you're not going to have a strong recommendation for them.
00:15:38
Speaker
Even if it's just like social conversation along the way, every six months or something, hey, what's going on?
00:15:44
Speaker
How's this?
00:15:45
Speaker
Good.
00:15:46
Speaker
I don't need to do a full rundown of your last performance evaluation, but some level of we still have a relationship that is like, again, dormant for most of the time, but can be reactivated along the way.
00:15:59
Speaker
I like that you brought that up because I was going to ask this question and we got an answer.
00:16:05
Speaker
Could still be a conversation topic though, because I was going to say there's only 24 hours in a day.
00:16:11
Speaker
At what point can you truly foster multiple relationships?
00:16:16
Speaker
Over three years to not get a response except for twice, that's way too, you know, that's definitely not enough.
00:16:24
Speaker
But I have had relationships where someone wants,
00:16:29
Speaker
you know, maybe not daily, but weekly interaction.
00:16:31
Speaker
And that's a lot sometimes, you know, it's a lot.
00:16:35
Speaker
So I guess my flip side question is, how do you foster the relationships where people want too much and they possibly take it a little negatively if you don't give it to them?
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah, I want you as a medium active node in my network.
00:16:52
Speaker
I don't want you that active.
00:16:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:55
Speaker
I don't want you to be like silent.
00:16:57
Speaker
I don't want to talk to you every day, but you know, once every six months, that's good for me.
00:17:01
Speaker
Is that what it is?
00:17:02
Speaker
There's a sweet spot.
00:17:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:05
Speaker
But I, I don't know.
00:17:07
Speaker
I,
00:17:08
Speaker
Being a person who networks a lot and is very compassionate towards relationships, it's something that crosses my mind.
00:17:15
Speaker
So I don't know.
00:17:16
Speaker
Oh, I couldn't agree more.
00:17:17
Speaker
And I think that's the whole point is like you don't – it's not always a transaction.
00:17:21
Speaker
Sometimes the transaction is just making sure it's still alive I think is the real point.
00:17:26
Speaker
It's like, Sean, I don't need to call you and be like, hey, I need help with this legal problem.
00:17:29
Speaker
Or you don't need to call me and be like, hey, I got this friend who's trying to get housing.
00:17:33
Speaker
It could just be like, hey, Sean, heard you just landed a big client.
00:17:37
Speaker
Or, you know, oh, it's your birthday.
00:17:39
Speaker
Happy birthday.
00:17:40
Speaker
Whatever.
00:17:41
Speaker
It's like, oh, as long as the network is still or the relationship is still active enough that it doesn't feel like I'm cold calling you out of the blue for something I need now.
00:17:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:53
Speaker
Yeah.
Intentional and Diverse Networking
00:17:54
Speaker
Another side of that, too.
00:17:55
Speaker
I think you also like the person seeking out the relationship or trying to make the relationship or the network stronger with that person.
00:18:04
Speaker
I think it's really important to have intentionality behind that.
00:18:08
Speaker
Even when I go into one-on-ones with my supervisor, that's an hour a week that I get with my supervisor.
00:18:14
Speaker
And so to build a strong relationship with them, since I'm new in the position, how can I have questions prepared or what can I bring up and ask in those spaces so that my supervisor also feels that I'm not wasting his time, but that I'm really trying to take advantage of what he can offer?
00:18:30
Speaker
And so I think a lot of that also falls on the
00:18:33
Speaker
asker, I don't know what the better word for that is, but the person asking are to uphold that relationship.
00:18:39
Speaker
I think it's really important for them to have that intentionality behind it.
00:18:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:44
Speaker
There's a, the other podcast I used to listen to a lot, the Jordan Harbinger show, and he talks a lot about networking and value and all that.
00:18:51
Speaker
And one thing he says repeatedly is like, dig the well before you're thirsty.
00:18:55
Speaker
It's like you invest in these relationships in your network when you don't need anything.
00:18:58
Speaker
So then when you do, it's already active enough that it's not
00:19:03
Speaker
feeling that way.
00:19:03
Speaker
And I think that goes back to Dylan, your original point of like intentionality, being prepared that, you know, you're not coming with questions necessarily.
00:19:11
Speaker
You're coming with questions now because someday down the road, you're going to have a big ask.
00:19:17
Speaker
That leads a little bit into the concept of homophily, which is, you know, like begets like.
00:19:25
Speaker
The same attracts the same and creates what I call like, or others call it like an echo chamber within your strong ties.
00:19:33
Speaker
We're all like kind of that group think mentality within our office.
00:19:38
Speaker
We all think the same thing.
00:19:39
Speaker
So like having a more diverse network of ideas and thoughts and people from different professions is
00:19:46
Speaker
might provide more value.
00:19:49
Speaker
Is there any truth to this or any observations we've seen of this in action?
00:19:53
Speaker
I think there is.
00:19:55
Speaker
I will go back to Sean.
00:19:57
Speaker
I think that Sean and I coming in and working together, we had very different, I would say perspectives on different things.
00:20:04
Speaker
But I think that through the discussion that we had created a stronger relationship or a stronger, I would say relationship or stronger network with one another,
00:20:13
Speaker
I think that when we surround ourselves with people that think exactly like us, as the book says, it's much easier for us to find trust.
00:20:22
Speaker
It's easier for us to kind of spend time with those people.
00:20:25
Speaker
But I do a lot of reading of history and books.
00:20:28
Speaker
social science, pretty much anything that I can read.
00:20:31
Speaker
And a lot of times I find that the people who keep the most diverse circle around them, which the book also talks about, they're able to solve more difficult problems.
00:20:40
Speaker
They're able to challenge each other's opinion to the point that it's not just surface level, but it has depth to it.
00:20:48
Speaker
And I think that Sean is a really good example of that as well in our professional working relationship.
00:20:54
Speaker
Last week, I was actually posed the question, if I had a certain amount of money to spend, would I prefer to go to a conference or go to a professional development class?
00:21:04
Speaker
And I landed on a conference for the very reason that you brought up.
00:21:09
Speaker
I like going to conferences where I can learn from different thoughts.
00:21:12
Speaker
Sometimes I'll run into attorneys or business owners from different countries.
00:21:17
Speaker
And I'll learn how they're doing things in their neck of the woods.
00:21:20
Speaker
And it allows me to be better when I come back because I'm not just stuck in my line of thinking.
00:21:26
Speaker
Where I'm located, Charlotte, North Carolina, it's pretty large and diverse, but we're all in the same business community.
00:21:36
Speaker
So we end up getting into some group think.
00:21:37
Speaker
So to answer your question, I think that learning from other people is just extremely important.
00:21:43
Speaker
Well, I think that's a great example.
00:21:45
Speaker
And as someone who just got back from the Akuho iConference a few weeks ago, I often get more value sitting around the hotel bar.
00:21:54
Speaker
that with action taken back than I do from like sessions because it's like, here's the freewheeling random people jumping in and out of conversations about whatever topic is like most pressing in the moment.
00:22:08
Speaker
And sometimes those like, I've never talked to you before and you just said something that it's,
00:22:15
Speaker
valuable enough and different enough from what would come up in my own department that it's like now I've got something to move forward with.
00:22:23
Speaker
So I think that's a great example, Sean.
00:22:28
Speaker
I think about when we talk about homophily and the echo chambers is like, I believe strongly this is why whenever there's a new initiative or a new department who wants to do something new on college campuses and they want to do a big event, like an educational event, they always lean towards some sort of activities fair where why don't we just bring everyone together and they all have a booth and they all hand out junk and they
00:22:57
Speaker
There we go.
00:22:57
Speaker
And there's so many activities fairs every year and it's so tired.
00:23:01
Speaker
You're trying to get information out.
00:23:03
Speaker
Here's an example is several years ago, the student government wanted to do like an voter registration trial.
00:23:09
Speaker
And their immediate thought was, let's do an activities fair.
00:23:15
Speaker
Like, we just did one of those.
00:23:18
Speaker
We're doing another one in three months.
00:23:19
Speaker
It's the same stuff.
00:23:21
Speaker
But why don't you reach out to human resources who does benefit fairs
00:23:26
Speaker
And is that more aligned with registration and voter registration?
00:23:30
Speaker
Use that instead of this homophily of ideas that we've done over and over again.
00:23:37
Speaker
But I think even that's like thinking outside of the box, because I feel like no matter what institution you go to, they're always going to have like the activity fair or the event that does that.
00:23:46
Speaker
And so I think even trying to go a different route to HR, like I think that's going outside of that box or that echo chamber of sorts.
00:23:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:56
Speaker
So let's look at seeing our whole network.
00:23:58
Speaker
We talked about like individual connections and reactivating connections along the way.
Network Utilization for Development
00:24:04
Speaker
How do we look at our whole network now that we're talking about weak, dormant, active ties?
00:24:11
Speaker
How do we make those observations or got brought up earlier about reactivating some of those pieces that may have fallen dormant?
00:24:20
Speaker
I think about this question because I think however you answer it is going to like set people's minds of, oh, this is why I deal in networks or, oh, this is like the negative parts.
00:24:30
Speaker
I think that a lot of people have about networking because I think a lot of people do it.
00:24:34
Speaker
Maybe not the best.
00:24:36
Speaker
But I think that when you look at your overall network, it depends on, I think, where you are and where you're trying to go.
00:24:43
Speaker
And not necessarily like who you can use or who you can reach out to to get there.
00:24:48
Speaker
But I think it's about finding the mentorship either through dormant ties, strong ties, even weak ties that can work.
00:24:57
Speaker
align with what your goal is to help you get there.
00:25:01
Speaker
And so for instance, like Sean was a strong tie when I was looking at going to grad school.
00:25:05
Speaker
And so I reached out and said, Sean, hey, I'm not really...
00:25:09
Speaker
super happy in my position right now, but I'm not going to quit.
00:25:13
Speaker
And he was like, well, what are you passionate about?
00:25:16
Speaker
And I was like, I really am interested in higher education.
00:25:18
Speaker
And he was obviously a strong tie at the time.
00:25:21
Speaker
And he connected me with his sister-in-law, her name is Veronica Pajorkman, who later mentored me through the Oshkosh Placement Exchange process to even get me to the opportunity to go to grad school and help me a lot in that.
00:25:35
Speaker
But I think that
00:25:36
Speaker
Had I not had the goal in mind of where I wanted to go, I don't think that I would have articulated that to even have a connection to get me to a resource that could help reach that goal, if that makes sense.
00:25:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:50
Speaker
So Sean was a broker between you and his sister in that way, right?
00:25:56
Speaker
So you're someone who completely wasn't in my network, but really stepped up to...
00:26:01
Speaker
Because someone had also done that for her.
00:26:03
Speaker
And so I think when we do reach out to, regardless of where someone is in our network, I think it's important to obviously be intentional and to, I don't know, I lost that thought.
00:26:16
Speaker
That's okay.
00:26:17
Speaker
That's all right.
00:26:17
Speaker
Just keep saying intentional over because this is student affairs and you can't lose.
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:26
Speaker
But Sean, you must have observed this in the private sector, in the legal world of like, you know, the whole network and valuing and understanding that like in terms of growing a new business and all that.
00:26:38
Speaker
I like that we're kind of tying this back into time.
00:26:42
Speaker
That's the first thing that comes back to my mind when I think about how do I keep my network healthy?
00:26:48
Speaker
How do I keep the entire network happy?
00:26:51
Speaker
All the ties there.
00:26:53
Speaker
And so one thing I do, because I know I don't have a ton of time, but I keep notes.
00:26:57
Speaker
And so if I see someone, I just make a note to myself.
00:27:01
Speaker
ask this guy to coffee.
00:27:02
Speaker
And then I will set that reminder.
00:27:04
Speaker
I'll just guess three weeks.
00:27:06
Speaker
Let's say I know I'm busy the next week or two.
00:27:08
Speaker
I'll set it three weeks in the future.
00:27:10
Speaker
And then I will get a random notification that says schedule coffee with, for example, Dylan.
00:27:16
Speaker
And it's not perfect.
00:27:17
Speaker
It's not foolproof.
00:27:18
Speaker
But when things pop up in my brain, I just got to do something with them.
00:27:22
Speaker
And it's not realistic to think I'm going to, you know, have coffee with every single person as I think about them.
00:27:28
Speaker
But I think that that's one way that I try to keep
00:27:31
Speaker
my network healthy.
00:27:32
Speaker
And earlier I asked the question about, you know, people who want my time weekly.
00:27:38
Speaker
I'm not great at keeping those relationships alive.
00:27:41
Speaker
So I have to be, like Dylan says, intentional about what I can do to try to make people feel valued in my network.
00:27:50
Speaker
I love that.
00:27:51
Speaker
Like that's a very tangible takeaway is like scheduled on your calendar.
00:27:56
Speaker
I've even at some points, like if I just had a conversation with somebody like a dormant time, I like I would cold call people on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving is my favorite day of the work, like work day of the year, because it's like nobody's here.
00:28:08
Speaker
Nobody really cares what's going on.
00:28:10
Speaker
And that's what I would just like cold call old people from my network.
00:28:14
Speaker
And then we talk and I would like delay send an email for like a month later, um,
00:28:19
Speaker
just following up whatever.
00:28:21
Speaker
And I think some people feel like, well, that feels so sleazy or it's too mechanical, it's not organic.
00:28:27
Speaker
And I'm like, well, the other option is not doing anything at all.
00:28:30
Speaker
And so- Exactly.
00:28:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:33
Speaker
Right, Sean?
00:28:34
Speaker
So, I mean, the strategies we put into place to help facilitate these ties, I think, are very valid.
00:28:40
Speaker
And whether it's delay sending an email.
00:28:42
Speaker
I mean, one time I delay sent an email like so far down the line.
00:28:45
Speaker
It was like six or nine months.
00:28:46
Speaker
I completely forgot about it.
00:28:48
Speaker
And then this person responded to this email.
00:28:50
Speaker
It's like, oh, this person's reaching out to me.
00:28:52
Speaker
I was like, oh, they're responding to an email I wrote nine months ago, but didn't have it sent for an email.
00:28:59
Speaker
You know, you say it doesn't always work out.
00:29:01
Speaker
That was one of those cases in my case where it didn't work out for me.
00:29:06
Speaker
I think that's great.
00:29:07
Speaker
You know, I love what you said, and I'm actually going to quote you on that.
00:29:11
Speaker
Doing something, even as mechanical as it may be, is still better than doing nothing.
00:29:15
Speaker
That's great.
00:29:16
Speaker
I like that.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:17
Speaker
I mean, it's true because I get what people are saying, and I totally appreciate it when they're like, well, it just doesn't feel organic enough.
00:29:23
Speaker
Like, it's not a real – I was like, well –
00:29:26
Speaker
The alternative is doing nothing.
00:29:27
Speaker
So yeah, we're human.
00:29:31
Speaker
You're not going to get organic all hours of the day.
00:29:34
Speaker
It's just not going to happen.
00:29:36
Speaker
Right?
00:29:37
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:29:38
Speaker
Sometimes you just have to know that I care.
00:29:41
Speaker
Exactly.
00:29:42
Speaker
And until I announced this on the podcast right now, nobody probably ever knew that I was delay sending emails.
00:29:49
Speaker
I just thought I was really, really intentional with our relationship.
00:29:54
Speaker
I may, I may tweet that.
00:29:55
Speaker
I don't know if Twitter stole a thing, but yeah, that's it.
00:30:00
Speaker
I'm going to for the masses.
00:30:03
Speaker
Well, as another example, there was someone I never worked with directly, but was at a school that I applied for and I'd met at a conference.
00:30:13
Speaker
And I was trying to build a relationship as like a potential of maybe I want to go back and work there someday.
00:30:18
Speaker
And the job opportunity never worked out, but I just kind of kept this relationship alive.
00:30:23
Speaker
Every six, nine months, I'd give them a call.
00:30:25
Speaker
You know, we just kind of chat.
00:30:27
Speaker
Never worked with each other, never really knew each other.
00:30:30
Speaker
And every time I called, he would say, gosh, you're so good at this.
00:30:34
Speaker
And I, I'm going to do better next time.
00:30:36
Speaker
I'm going to call you next time.
00:30:38
Speaker
I'm going to call you and never happened.
00:30:40
Speaker
And I was like, just, you know, he's like, how are you so good at this?
00:30:43
Speaker
I was like, I just put on my calendar and be like, you know, Sean, exactly your takeaway there.
00:30:48
Speaker
It's like, put on my calendar and you know, then, then do it.
00:30:51
Speaker
And I, I always think of that as like, there's little tools that we can do to just be a little bit better every day in that regard.
00:30:58
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:30:59
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:31:00
Speaker
Within the network, in the book, they reference a, I think it was a research study by Adam Kleinbaum on who moves up in organizations.
Enhancing Careers through Networking
00:31:10
Speaker
And I think systemically, we think that it's the people who play the political game.
00:31:16
Speaker
But this research study actually revealed it's the zigzaggers, like people who cross silos, who have network nodes outside of their direct, their strong ties, but work cross-functionally.
00:31:29
Speaker
Is this something you all have observed or have thought about?
00:31:34
Speaker
I think this is something that I really enjoy doing.
00:31:37
Speaker
I think a lot of times, especially my younger professional career, I thought that my direct up, like my direct supervisory chain should provide mentorship, should provide all of these different checkboxes of what I needed as a person.
00:31:53
Speaker
And what I learned at a larger, or at Texas A&M is that that's not always the case, but
00:31:58
Speaker
Throughout the entire department, there are people who care and there are people who are really good at a lot of things.
00:32:05
Speaker
And so one person I go to in my head is Carly Smith, who was a blessing to work with for the two years I got to work with her.
00:32:12
Speaker
And she checked a lot of those boxes, but she also kind of allowed me the space to get that mentorship and get all those different pieces in a completely different side of business.
00:32:22
Speaker
the house of a 230-ish person department where I could then also somewhat connect with her network and get pieces of that.
00:32:33
Speaker
But I think that when you do that, it allows leadership to see that you're not...
00:32:37
Speaker
siloed and that you're not just doing this part.
00:32:41
Speaker
I can also help encourage Carly or I can help bring Carly's initiatives back into the residence hall and things like that.
00:32:49
Speaker
And so I think that doing the zigzag is really important for personal development.
00:32:54
Speaker
But also, I do think that when you do that, I think it allows you more experience and more exposure to more of the department, which I think helps you to move up like like that research you were talking about.
00:33:06
Speaker
I'm going back and forth.
00:33:07
Speaker
I'm zigzagging to an extent because I do see value in people who zigzag, cross-training.
00:33:16
Speaker
They have a very good understanding of the entire organization as a whole.
00:33:21
Speaker
But one life motto that I've kind of stood by is that people like doing business with people that they like.
00:33:27
Speaker
And so it seems to me that in the political sense,
00:33:32
Speaker
it's kind of a popularity contest.
00:33:34
Speaker
If someone does a good job and they're very well liked or respected, that person's probably going to move up faster than someone who just understands the entire organization, maybe a little bit better at their job, but they're disliked.
00:33:49
Speaker
So that may be a conflicting opinion, but it's mine.
00:33:57
Speaker
I think it really – I think I've observed both and I think the ones that it's like the people that play the political game are the easy – they're the low-hanging fruit to kind of bang on.
00:34:06
Speaker
It's like, oh, well, you only got this because this.
00:34:09
Speaker
But like your zigzaggers, it's like –
00:34:13
Speaker
expanding skill sets like Dylan, you're talking about, Oh, I'm working with Carly Smith on training development stuff.
00:34:19
Speaker
And now I'm kind of pulling that I've got a little bit of this.
00:34:21
Speaker
I've got a little bit of that.
00:34:23
Speaker
Uh, we talk a lot on this podcast about like niche skills, like very kind of niche things that people can do that others can't, which provide inherent and intrinsic value to others who, uh,
00:34:36
Speaker
You know, if you have a particular assessment skill that another department doesn't, they're going to be asking to reach.
00:34:43
Speaker
And now you're building relationships because of that.
00:34:45
Speaker
So, again, I didn't read the full study, so I don't know exactly what it says.
00:34:48
Speaker
But, you know, I think we've observed both and both can both can certainly happen.
00:34:54
Speaker
You know, at some point, I truly believe this.
00:34:58
Speaker
I think it comes down to luck in some, you know, in some manner.
00:35:04
Speaker
Luck or being at the right place at the right time.
00:35:07
Speaker
So maybe I'm speaking to some longevity.
00:35:09
Speaker
You know, the people who bounce from organization to organization aren't giving themselves the opportunity to just stay put.
00:35:17
Speaker
So the person who is in place, they are going to move up faster than either the zigzagger or the political person because the organization is more familiar with them.
00:35:28
Speaker
So yeah, maybe a little tidbit there.
00:35:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:31
Speaker
Well, and to your point, like the longer you're in a place, the more opportunity for luck to go in your favor also happens.
00:35:38
Speaker
Exactly.
00:35:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:40
Speaker
Longevity is everything.
00:35:41
Speaker
Like, and patience, really patience, really.
00:35:44
Speaker
100%.
00:35:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:47
Speaker
Okay, so we talked about Sean's sister helping Dylan.
00:35:51
Speaker
And so in that example, Sean, you were the broker between these two people where Dylan needed help navigating OPE.
00:36:02
Speaker
And Sean, I'm guessing you don't maybe even know what OPE is, but your sister does.
00:36:09
Speaker
I can Google it.
00:36:11
Speaker
So your value in that network is...
00:36:14
Speaker
is brokering that relationship, right?
00:36:21
Speaker
And so let's talk about how, like the value of brokers in networks and how that manifests.
00:36:29
Speaker
When it comes to people doing business with people that they like, that is how brokerage work.
00:36:35
Speaker
You know, brokerages work.
00:36:37
Speaker
I guess one sense of brokerage is someone paying for a relationship, but in the grand sense of the term,
00:36:44
Speaker
people are only really going to refer or promote or engage with people that they like.
00:36:48
Speaker
So I think that, you know, to that point, I was mentoring Dylan and he was receptive to it.
00:36:54
Speaker
If Dylan had not been receptive to that mentorship, I was not going to broker.
00:36:59
Speaker
You know, I wasn't going to introduce him to my network.
00:37:02
Speaker
So,
00:37:03
Speaker
At some point, there's a push and pull there.
00:37:06
Speaker
You hear old sayings like don't burn bridges.
00:37:09
Speaker
And we're talking about maintaining those ties and relationships.
00:37:13
Speaker
It's extremely important if you're willing to tap into someone's network and ask them to broker on your behalf, because that's what that letter of recommendation is.
00:37:22
Speaker
The brokers get more and more expensive as we move up and up the food chain.
00:37:29
Speaker
I also think to like brokerages is like when I so I now work at Georgetown and so recently went through the job search and I think it's very comforting like LinkedIn.
00:37:42
Speaker
when you can go and look up, okay, I know I'm interviewing with this person.
00:37:47
Speaker
Let me look them up, pull some information, be able to articulate that in an interview as to why I'm interested in this position or working with them in particular.
00:37:56
Speaker
And seeing that you have mutual connections down on your LinkedIn.
00:38:00
Speaker
I know that's happened.
00:38:02
Speaker
I did research with a professor named Dr. Salazar at Texas A&M, and she worked at Georgetown previously.
00:38:08
Speaker
And so going into the housing process,
00:38:12
Speaker
or the housing professionals at Georgetown's LinkedIn's and seeing that they're all connected with her.
00:38:17
Speaker
I think that also gives me confidence, whether it be talking to Veronica, who Sean connected me with, or talking to my now supervisors.
00:38:26
Speaker
I think it gives you confidence when you have those connections that are there.
00:38:30
Speaker
Not even if they're going to be a brokerage or not, but to know that I think that it still somewhat serves as a brokerage because you have this connection with
00:38:40
Speaker
I would say a world-class researcher and they have connections with these people.
00:38:45
Speaker
And so I think that LinkedIn is kind of an agreement where I agree that, that my network is going to interact with your network.
00:38:53
Speaker
And so I think that whether we use it or not, I still think there's a type of brokerage there that we can kind of tap into.
00:39:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:39:01
Speaker
I actually I hadn't even thought about LinkedIn.
00:39:03
Speaker
But while you were talking about it, I remember this example of I was trying to track down somebody's dissertation from an Akuhoi presentation I saw probably 10 years ago about whatever topic.
00:39:16
Speaker
And I had tried to reach out like right at the beginning of the pandemic and trying to get this information.
00:39:21
Speaker
Wasn't having much luck.
00:39:23
Speaker
Fast forward three years and then I went on LinkedIn to see if I could dig them up again.
00:39:28
Speaker
And I saw a mutual connection of ours of someone who I was like, hey, can you broker over like, can you do an introduction for me to validate this cold call that I had done three years ago?
00:39:43
Speaker
And it worked like and then I got it was a three way conversation and like I'm going to just drop off now.
00:39:49
Speaker
But I've got you two connected and got a phone call going a couple of weeks later on that.
00:39:54
Speaker
So it was there's a lot of value to that.
00:39:58
Speaker
What you were saying about LinkedIn.
00:39:59
Speaker
I hadn't even thought about that.
00:40:00
Speaker
It's like a way to see potential brokerages.
00:40:04
Speaker
Mm hmm.
00:40:05
Speaker
I also think it's a more like social example, sort of.
00:40:11
Speaker
I used to live in an apartment complex and the person who lived two floors down from me, she was retired but taught piano lessons.
00:40:18
Speaker
And then I was working at a place where somebody's piano teacher had moved away.
00:40:24
Speaker
And I'm like, well, I can't give piano lessons and I have no interest in paying to learn to put piano at this point in my life.
00:40:33
Speaker
But there's two people who have needs and potentially I can connect them where I'm getting no value out of it other than making the connections for them to get value from each other.
00:40:46
Speaker
So I have a question about that.
00:40:48
Speaker
Do you think that when you reach out to someone, so say you're connecting this student who's looking for a new piano teacher with your neighbor, I think it's so rewarding when you say, for instance, hey, I'm here because I think that you're a great piano teacher.
00:41:05
Speaker
And this student is incredibly passionate about learning.
00:41:08
Speaker
In my head, I can't think of a brokerage where somebody wouldn't say, wow, like that feels really good.
00:41:14
Speaker
Whether they can do it or not might be a different story.
00:41:16
Speaker
But man, like they're seeking me out for my expertise or my passion area.
00:41:22
Speaker
And so I'm sure that brokerages sometimes don't work out.
00:41:24
Speaker
But in my head, I'm like, man, that's so cool when you ask someone to let them into kind of your area.
00:41:32
Speaker
I think that's so cool.
00:41:35
Speaker
No, I agree.
00:41:35
Speaker
And I think the funny part is, is like, I think you did an excellent sales job for both sides of this.
00:41:41
Speaker
But I had no idea if she was a good piano teacher or not.
00:41:44
Speaker
B, I didn't know if this person's kid even enjoyed piano lessons or not.
00:41:48
Speaker
So that's where it's like, I think I've heard it called like the double opt-in.
00:41:52
Speaker
It's like, hey, before I talk to both of you together, it's like individually, I might know this person who might be, you know, a value or whatever that is to be like,
00:42:03
Speaker
there so i don't know if they were passionate i don't know if she was passionate whatever but all i know is i happened to catch wind that she taught piano lessons because of like kids coming by and they didn't seem disappointed like and i don't i don't know that's maybe where we're just very candid about hey oh you know person i worked with i know you're looking for a piano teacher the person downstairs for me i don't know how good she is i've not seen any yelp reviews or anything but if you're looking to try someone out let me know and perhaps i can do an introduction
00:42:34
Speaker
JC, I think that's an interesting example of whether that was a strong tie, a weak tie, or a dormant tie.
00:42:42
Speaker
If that person was a dormant or weak tie, you probably would have used the, I don't know how great she is, even if you saw people going in and out of her
00:42:53
Speaker
her office all day, you still probably wouldn't vouch for her.
00:42:56
Speaker
But let's say you saw one person going there weekly, but you had a strong relationship with her.
00:43:01
Speaker
That's probably an instance where you'd say, great person slash piano teacher, not putting words in your mouth.
00:43:08
Speaker
But yeah, I think that when it comes to that brokerage, the sign-off gets more and more valuable or valid, maybe not valid is the right word, but valuable as that relationship grows.
00:43:22
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:43:23
Speaker
I think that was so well articulated.
00:43:25
Speaker
And then because you're also putting your name on the line in some ways.
00:43:28
Speaker
And that's where it's like you talk about burning bridges earlier, Sean.
00:43:31
Speaker
It's like.
00:43:33
Speaker
I put this all in motion and then you did not come through.
00:43:36
Speaker
And now this other person not only is like upset at you or thinks you're a deadbeat, but because I was the facilitator of this.
00:43:43
Speaker
So there is a lot of value.
00:43:45
Speaker
Like if someone brokers a relation for me, like that's my number one priority is making sure I come through for that person, even if I'm the one that's supposed to be getting value out of it.
00:43:53
Speaker
That's a really good point too, I think.
00:43:56
Speaker
Any other examples of like brokerages you all have seen or facilitated yourself?
00:44:02
Speaker
in your jobs or your personal lives?
00:44:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'll give an example real quick because I think this one's probably the most interesting and it happened recently.
00:44:14
Speaker
I keep it pretty generic.
00:44:16
Speaker
I referred someone very, very close to me to an attorney that was also very, very close to me.
Valuing Services and Time
00:44:21
Speaker
And that relationship didn't work out.
00:44:24
Speaker
And I kind of sit back and think to myself, one, what is my
00:44:31
Speaker
what is the damage to my tie to both people since the relationship didn't work out?
00:44:36
Speaker
And two, how do I handle that moving forward?
00:44:40
Speaker
You know, when it, when it comes to strong ties that aren't strong with each other, you know, I think that that's another interesting consideration because you put some of yourself out there when you sign off on people and if things go south,
00:44:57
Speaker
we feel like it affects us.
00:44:59
Speaker
And I'm not going to say it doesn't.
00:45:00
Speaker
We obviously don't know how that other person, the person that was on the receiving end takes it, but it's, it's a consideration.
00:45:08
Speaker
I think something also to think about is who are you connect, like do both of your ties that you're connecting to, they need to be strong ties.
00:45:14
Speaker
Like, could you do that with weak ties?
00:45:16
Speaker
And then what is like, if it does go negative, like what are strategies y'all use to repair that?
00:45:23
Speaker
Well, if they're weak, the question is, well, it's not a question.
00:45:26
Speaker
We probably have our answer.
00:45:27
Speaker
We're probably not fixing that tie.
00:45:31
Speaker
The tie is probably being severed.
00:45:34
Speaker
It's a weaker tie.
00:45:36
Speaker
A much weaker tie.
00:45:38
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes.
00:45:40
Speaker
I mean, in your, in that, that scenario, Dylan, I think what I would do if that were to happen to me is I would reach out and be like, I understand this person totally like didn't fall through, didn't come through with what was agreed upon.
00:45:52
Speaker
I know I recommended that.
00:45:53
Speaker
And I am personally sorry that I facilitated that.
00:45:57
Speaker
And I would then go to the other person and be like, look, this is what has happened.
00:46:02
Speaker
And this is how it's like, you've lost an opportunity for something to provide value to you.
00:46:08
Speaker
we've lost some level of trust in terms of like being able to vouch for you in that case.
00:46:13
Speaker
And how do you move forward from there?
00:46:15
Speaker
But I mean, I think you just got to own it on both sides.
00:46:19
Speaker
I appreciate that perspective.
00:46:21
Speaker
Sean, there's a guy in my network.
00:46:22
Speaker
His name is Javier Centoncio, who was a student government president during my first full-time job.
00:46:27
Speaker
Similar to you, he's the founder of his own law firm, specializing in veterans disability, estate planning, probate, and personal injury for veterans.
00:46:37
Speaker
He recently posted a message talking about hundreds of hours of both pro bono work he has done.
00:46:43
Speaker
But this wasn't real pro bono work.
00:46:46
Speaker
It was for friends and family who always ask for free legal advice.
00:46:51
Speaker
As we talk about providing niche skills and value and brokering relationships in networks, I've also heard the same from nurses who people always ask for free medical advice, which really isn't fair.
00:47:04
Speaker
Sean, do you find yourself having to draw lines somewhere on filling a structural hole or brokering a relationship in your network and earning what you deserve for your specialty?
00:47:15
Speaker
100%.
00:47:16
Speaker
It is probably the toughest part about being in a professional services industry.
00:47:22
Speaker
I feel that for anyone with one of these professional services where people call on them.
00:47:29
Speaker
It's tough because you obviously don't want to, using some of the terms we've been using today, these ties, you don't want to weaken any of these ties, but you also internally want to value yourself and
00:47:42
Speaker
I don't have the answer to that.
00:47:44
Speaker
I definitely struggle with it, and I feel for every attorney, a doctor, a nurse, like you said, who kind of deal with it.
00:47:51
Speaker
But one thing I think I'm doing is trying to separate that personal and professional.
00:47:59
Speaker
With the professional services, we kind of – at least I do.
00:48:03
Speaker
I think that I am one in the same.
00:48:05
Speaker
I am my law degree, personally and professionally.
00:48:08
Speaker
And it's tough to separate the two.
00:48:10
Speaker
But I think that's what I need to do to – that's at least what I'm trying to do to move forward.
00:48:14
Speaker
Yeah, I agree.
00:48:15
Speaker
And someone posted a comment back to him that said one way to kind of draw that line or – and I think this is valuable to networks of like if you have a very niche skill or a specialized knowledge base of like, oh, so-and-so, talk to them about this.
00:48:31
Speaker
One person said, when I get requests for legal advice outside my limited area of expertise, I say, you can Google that easier than I can.
00:48:36
Speaker
And then somebody also said, and this is the most valuable one that I saw as a response.
00:48:44
Speaker
It said, I always ask them to do something first.
00:48:47
Speaker
Put the onus on them.
00:48:48
Speaker
Okay, here's what I need you to do for me to help you first.
00:48:52
Speaker
Write it all down.
00:48:53
Speaker
Give me the receipts.
00:48:54
Speaker
Print a thread of emails, and I'll take a look.
00:48:57
Speaker
They said nine times out of ten, they can't be bothered, and then I blow them off.
00:49:01
Speaker
Why should I help you if I can't be bothered?
00:49:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's tremendous.
00:49:06
Speaker
I like the part about them taking action.
00:49:10
Speaker
When I ask people to email me something, I typically don't get it.
00:49:13
Speaker
So they want to text it or they want me to write it down.
00:49:17
Speaker
But when it's free work, it's like, hey, let's get that in an email.
00:49:22
Speaker
Another thing that I've started doing is
00:49:26
Speaker
And I think that this is a little bit more on the legal side and maybe doctors as well, but I started trying to document the relationship.
00:49:34
Speaker
So in the legal field, we have these things called not retainers, but engagement agreements.
00:49:41
Speaker
A container agreement is very similar, but really it's money.
00:49:43
Speaker
But when it comes to an engagement agreement, an engagement just lays out the relationship.
00:49:48
Speaker
And I try to do that as early on as possible so that I can limit the scope of the relationship.
00:49:54
Speaker
And I can point out, hey, I'm willing to do X, Y, and Z for a small fee.
00:50:00
Speaker
But if it gets outside of this, just know that that's real work, that it's going to take real time.
00:50:06
Speaker
Yeah, I love that.
00:50:07
Speaker
And again, you have a very specialized degree, a very specialized knowledge base.
00:50:13
Speaker
And it's so easy just to ask someone a question without putting any thought like, oh, it's so easy.
00:50:20
Speaker
But then it takes a lot of bandwidth to process this very potentially complex legal matter.
00:50:27
Speaker
And I've had like, we go back to the, you know, people have reached out to me about like research I've done and I've like,
00:50:32
Speaker
I love it when that happens because I love talking about research articles I published.
00:50:37
Speaker
And then I'll, again, delay, send an email for several weeks later.
00:50:41
Speaker
It's like, Oh, whatever came of this.
00:50:43
Speaker
And it's so disappointing when I never get a response.
00:50:45
Speaker
It's like, it's so easy to ask.
00:50:47
Speaker
It takes a lot of time and effort to explain things, put it, you know, go to, go to a virtual class period or whatever.
00:50:54
Speaker
And then no validation afterwards.
00:50:56
Speaker
And I'm like, gosh, come on.
00:51:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:00
Speaker
So do you feel like when you've had to do that, do you feel like you've put it like a diminishing return on the, like the value you're providing to your network?
00:51:07
Speaker
Or have you had any negative responses when you try to like draw a boundary?
00:51:11
Speaker
No, I actually think the opposite has happened.
00:51:15
Speaker
I have saved myself a lot of time.
00:51:17
Speaker
And I think that people have started respecting me more because they now see that I place a lot of value on my time.
00:51:27
Speaker
I think that's kind of the flip side when, you know, I want to do what's best for everyone and try to give answers quickly and, you know, try to, you know, help out the majority.
00:51:40
Speaker
it may actually diminish myself in their eyes because they're not valuing my time the way I value my time.
00:51:47
Speaker
So I think it's actually had a much more positive effect on my network and myself.
00:51:52
Speaker
Oh, that's great.
00:51:53
Speaker
Well, and I also think if we go back to mentorship, it's also like you're being a good, somewhat a good observation.
00:51:59
Speaker
It's like, this is how we do this.
00:52:02
Speaker
And now other people hopefully will pick that up and install it in their lives as well.
00:52:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting.
00:52:08
Speaker
I don't want to make this too legal specific.
00:52:10
Speaker
I know you're getting the opinion of an attorney, but this goes across industries.
00:52:18
Speaker
But growing up, I didn't know a single attorney, and my parents didn't know a single attorney.
00:52:24
Speaker
So it's always interesting to have conversations with my dad now where –
00:52:27
Speaker
He'll ask a question or he'll ask how to proceed with an attorney.
00:52:31
Speaker
And it's almost like I'm introducing the process.
00:52:35
Speaker
You know, most people don't know what the process is.
00:52:37
Speaker
Had I grown up with an attorney, I would know what the, you know, legal process is.
00:52:42
Speaker
But I started realizing that maybe it's just that people don't understand the process.
00:52:46
Speaker
And it's an education.
00:52:48
Speaker
It's an educational opportunity.
00:52:50
Speaker
So yeah, like in that case, instead of like very specific legal advice, you're actually just helping them understand and get comfortable with the process of moving through that process.
00:53:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:53:02
Speaker
So if someone asks the question, they could say, Hey, Sean, I don't have a will.
00:53:07
Speaker
And then they kind of leave it open to me, you know, where in my head, they're asking me to prepare one.
00:53:12
Speaker
I could say wills are extremely important.
00:53:14
Speaker
You want to make sure that something happens after you pass.
00:53:17
Speaker
Sorry, I'm going to back up.
00:53:21
Speaker
Wills are extremely important.
00:53:22
Speaker
If after you pass, you have assets, they need a transfer somewhere, you should engage an attorney and ask him these questions.
00:53:29
Speaker
So kind of introduce them to the process and remove myself from it rather than stating, you know, hey, I'll just jump in and feel like I need to do it.
00:53:38
Speaker
I think that's a great example.
00:53:39
Speaker
And then your next statement is, can we get back to Thanksgiving dinner and watching?
00:53:45
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:53:48
Speaker
But yeah, let me look back around and give a big shout out to Javier.
00:53:52
Speaker
And I know he's done a lot of work for veterans and helping them through, navigate challenging times and get them set up for success long
Super Connectors and Dormant Ties
00:54:00
Speaker
term.
00:54:00
Speaker
So as we talk about dormant ties, Javier was actually a very dormant tie, as I have not actually spoken to him since 2018.
00:54:09
Speaker
Let's see, it would have been probably 2012, so 10 years.
00:54:12
Speaker
And I reached out to him before this episode and asked if I could reference his post because I thought it was very, very valuable.
00:54:20
Speaker
So Javier, keep doing what you're doing and thank you for all your work and service.
00:54:25
Speaker
Let's move on to super connectors.
00:54:28
Speaker
These are the people that know all the people and we see them walking around.
00:54:33
Speaker
You see them at conferences.
00:54:34
Speaker
They tend to know everybody.
00:54:37
Speaker
Do you all have any examples of super connectors in your lives?
00:54:42
Speaker
His name is Dylan Linder.
00:54:47
Speaker
I think Dylan, you do a really good job of growing out your network.
00:54:50
Speaker
In my local community, I do have quite a few, I'd say probably three or four,
00:54:55
Speaker
People who every time I look at them, I say, you just know everybody.
00:55:00
Speaker
And they pride themselves on having a very strong network and being able to place relationships with other relationships.
00:55:07
Speaker
I see extreme value there.
00:55:09
Speaker
I think there's value and there may be some opportunities for concern.
00:55:17
Speaker
It takes a lot of time to do that.
00:55:19
Speaker
It takes a lot of intentionality, like Dylan's been saying.
00:55:22
Speaker
I also think going into the job search, we had our former vice president at Texas A&M, Danny Pugh, or Dr. Pugh, I think he's an absolute super connector, especially in higher education.
00:55:35
Speaker
A lot of times coming into the field, we hear, oh, it's a small field.
00:55:38
Speaker
Oh, everyone knows everyone.
00:55:40
Speaker
And so going through the job search process, he would ask us in our class, he would ask, where are y'all looking for jobs?
00:55:48
Speaker
Like, what kind of jobs are you looking for?
00:55:50
Speaker
And regardless of what institution, what state, what region, he could pull out the vice president, probably dean of students, presidents, former presidents.
00:56:02
Speaker
And he was just open to connecting people together as vastly as they wanted to connect.
00:56:09
Speaker
I don't know what his experience with that has been because going back to what Sean said, I think that it is somewhat danger, not dangerous, but it could be scary because I think if you connect bad people enough times, eventually people are maybe you may lose some of that power or authority.
00:56:24
Speaker
I don't know power that you have.
00:56:27
Speaker
But yeah, I think that he's an absolute master of like networking.
00:56:33
Speaker
think that's a great point about you know just mass connecting you know you never know i guess what your perception is in other people's eyes if you are connecting people to jobs that aren't qualified or aren't doing the best job it can be it can be detrimental if you're not being selective
00:56:56
Speaker
Going back to my favorite word again, intentionality.
00:56:58
Speaker
Like, I think I'm really intentional when I do ask for that brokerage relationship or that connection, because that's also like my network as well, right?
00:57:05
Speaker
Like that's my tie at least to the broker and hopefully to that third party.
00:57:09
Speaker
But I absolutely think it's really important to be specific and precise with what you want or what you are asking for before ever like reaching or before at least brokering that out.
00:57:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:21
Speaker
And I think that brings up another good point of like, not all networks are created equal.
00:57:27
Speaker
And that, you know, we think about somebody who has no network, you don't have to be a super connector to like be able to facilitate a strong network.
00:57:36
Speaker
And I think the networks tend to have like an orbit or a gravity to them that as it gets bigger, it almost exponentially gets bigger because you're bringing other networks into your own.
00:57:48
Speaker
And so I think that's something to keep in mind is like people with who feel they have small networks is like all you need to do is like get connected with one person and access their network.
00:57:57
Speaker
And then it just grows exponentially.
00:58:00
Speaker
One of the lines I tagged from the book said every single person you meet has tremendous potential value to everyone else that you know.
00:58:09
Speaker
I think the book is really cool because it has the additional like workbook with it to like help you go through activities.
00:58:16
Speaker
One of my favorite activities that it had talks about asking like 10 people, I think it was between six and 12 people to dinner and they might know each other.
00:58:27
Speaker
They might not.
00:58:29
Speaker
It may be weak ties.
00:58:30
Speaker
It might be strong ties.
00:58:31
Speaker
But bringing all of those people together for dinner, because six is going to be enough where people aren't just going to like one off and have side conversations.
00:58:39
Speaker
But anything bigger than 12, you might.
00:58:42
Speaker
And I think that's a really cool way to.
00:58:45
Speaker
really maybe not be a super connector, but when you start doing that, I think from what the book talked about, like that kind of exploded into these huge parties where everyone then invites like one person to go.
00:59:00
Speaker
And I think that's a really cool concept and something that I really want to try kind of in this new experience that I'm in, in DC to do that, just to see kind of what happens because, you know,
00:59:11
Speaker
I think our networks are a lot of our time, a lot of times are untapped.
00:59:15
Speaker
And so trying to start somewhere and see what happens, I think would be really cool.
00:59:21
Speaker
And so remind me in that example, is it just like random people through like with different like focus areas in your work or is like all your work people or all your pickleball people?
00:59:33
Speaker
So I think it was a variety.
00:59:36
Speaker
I think they were all people with like something in common.
00:59:40
Speaker
Like I think it may have been like business owners or like small business owners and they brought them together.
00:59:45
Speaker
And then over time it like got further and further from like the central location.
00:59:49
Speaker
But I think it was kind of a conglomeration of people.
00:59:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think that sounds really fun.
00:59:56
Speaker
Do that and then report back.
00:59:58
Speaker
Will do, will do.
01:00:00
Speaker
You know what's been interesting, Dylan?
01:00:01
Speaker
I have not told you this.
01:00:03
Speaker
Little do you know.
01:00:05
Speaker
You know that you're in my Find My Friends.
01:00:07
Speaker
So whenever I look up to see where Katie is or someone else, Dylan will pop up.
01:00:13
Speaker
But for the last, I'd say month, month and a half maybe, you have been within a stone's throw of a good friend that I met in Charlotte and my brother.
01:00:23
Speaker
And you guys are all living in D.C.
01:00:25
Speaker
and none of you knew it.
01:00:27
Speaker
So now I pop open, find my friends and three of my ties are right there.
01:00:35
Speaker
And none of you guys know it.
01:00:37
Speaker
Those are my first two invites to my dinner party.
01:00:42
Speaker
Complete strangers, right?
01:00:44
Speaker
No, that's really cool.
01:00:47
Speaker
No, that is so wild to think about it.
01:00:51
Speaker
Dylan, you could have been standing in the coffee shop next to Sean's brother.
01:00:57
Speaker
Crazy.
01:00:58
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:00
Speaker
And how wild would it have been if Sean texted you, like, look down the street and look for this person.
01:01:06
Speaker
Go two blocks up and take a left and see if you can find my brother.
01:01:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:12
Speaker
Oh, that's wild.
01:01:13
Speaker
That's hilarious.
01:01:15
Speaker
What a small world.
01:01:17
Speaker
Definitely.
01:01:18
Speaker
So that's a perfect tie in as we look to wrap up.
Organic Networking and Relationship Building
01:01:21
Speaker
We we've now talked about a dinner party that Dylan's going to host.
01:01:25
Speaker
We've talked about Sean scheduling meetings on his calendar to follow up with people or send emails.
01:01:31
Speaker
I've talked about delay sending other other tangible takeaways to either build networks or foster.
01:01:37
Speaker
We can dormitize that you all can suggest to our listenership.
01:01:43
Speaker
Something that I think is really important is letting your network know what they mean to you.
01:01:48
Speaker
It's something that's like very deep and sentimental to me.
01:01:50
Speaker
I know I've done it for Sean.
01:01:51
Speaker
I've done it for Veronica, the sister-in-law.
01:01:55
Speaker
I've done it for a lot of strong ties from the University of South Carolina.
01:01:58
Speaker
But I think that when you, I think a lot of times in the work that we do, especially in higher education, we're not oftentimes recognized for the work that we do and the extra mile that we go sometimes.
01:02:09
Speaker
And so I think that something that I try to do is be very intentional and direct with the appreciation I have for different people that are in my network.
01:02:18
Speaker
Because I think when we do that, it hopefully will eventually create like a system that repeats itself so that people are more generous and more thoughtful in the words that they use.
01:02:29
Speaker
And that's something that I think is really intentional and that I use in my network to continue fostering that relationship.
01:02:36
Speaker
And so even if it's a weaker tie, that's still something that we've discussed.
01:02:40
Speaker
And so I think that that's really important.
01:02:43
Speaker
Well, and even doing that is then fostering that relationship that may be dormant because I've heard people talk that tell like wonderful stories about people from their past who the best piece of professional advice they ever got, or just some like endearing story about someone deep in their past.
01:03:00
Speaker
And I always tell them,
01:03:01
Speaker
do they know that that moment was so meaningful to you?
01:03:04
Speaker
And they're like, probably not.
01:03:05
Speaker
I'm like, well, you should tell them because for exactly what you said, Dylan, it's so validating in jobs where we often don't get validation from our service recipients.
01:03:14
Speaker
And then by reaching out to be like, Hey, remember this time?
01:03:18
Speaker
And I just wanted you to know that that meant a lot to me.
01:03:20
Speaker
Now you have re-engaged a dormant tie.
01:03:23
Speaker
Absolutely.
01:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome, Dylan.
01:03:27
Speaker
Good point.
01:03:28
Speaker
My last two closing points.
01:03:30
Speaker
My first piece of advice is going to be to plan.
01:03:34
Speaker
I look back on my undergrad and law school career, and I enjoyed all of my relationships, and I really enjoyed the people that I met.
01:03:45
Speaker
I wish I would have stopped and thought and maybe made a bit more of a plan about my networking and my connections.
01:03:52
Speaker
Of course, you can't really control that, but...
01:03:56
Speaker
I think that I could have grown some stronger connections had I thought where I wanted to be and at least put some more time and effort into growing those relationships.
01:04:08
Speaker
And then the last piece, I want to say all three of us are pretty outgoing individuals.
01:04:14
Speaker
So I'm going to be a little compassionate to those who are not as outgoing.
01:04:19
Speaker
I'm going to say like the, you know, Phil Knight says, just do it.
01:04:23
Speaker
If it means just going to one event and connecting with one person, I think Dylan touched on it earlier.
01:04:30
Speaker
He quoted from the book, that one connection is going to be much more meaningful or it's going to help grow your network exponentially.
01:04:38
Speaker
So I would say, you know, if you're not as outgoing and you're listening to this, don't think that you have to take all these tips and, you know, try to fit them into your very next networking event.
01:04:48
Speaker
Make a plan.
01:04:49
Speaker
Try to get better as you go, but just start because today is better than tomorrow.
01:04:56
Speaker
I think that's a great point.
01:04:57
Speaker
It's like just meet one person.
01:04:58
Speaker
It's like you do not have to build a network of a thousand people overnight.
01:05:03
Speaker
It's all scalable.
01:05:04
Speaker
It's like just look to make a connection with one person, follow up with them in two weeks, then follow up with them a month.
01:05:09
Speaker
You know, that sort of thing is like and build that habit.
01:05:12
Speaker
So it becomes a little bit easier along the way.
01:05:16
Speaker
I think one piece of advice as I've aged and gotten older is that I've, my network has probably grown faster when I've been organic about it.
01:05:26
Speaker
I think about like when I was younger at conferences and like trying to like rub elbows and introductions and tell people how valuable I was and
01:05:36
Speaker
But I feel like as I've gotten older and have a somewhat established network, like meeting people, I keep going back to the hotel bar.
01:05:43
Speaker
Like this is all I do at conferences.
01:05:45
Speaker
But, you know, the people that organically get brought into the conversation is like, oh, hey, those are the people I've found much easier to like organically facilitate a relationship long term with.
01:05:57
Speaker
And people like I sat next to and I'm trying to demonstrate like, here's my credentials and here's why I'm valuable to you.
01:06:05
Speaker
So I was like, my advice is like, don't underestimate those organic moments, wherever it might be.
01:06:13
Speaker
I think that's really important, too.
01:06:15
Speaker
I was at a.
01:06:17
Speaker
At an outing in D.C.
01:06:20
Speaker
And I had left a networking event trying to meet new people and ended up running into someone who works at American University, which is a 15 minute drive up the road.
01:06:29
Speaker
And we started talking about like kind of our journey into education in general, college and being a first in college student, things like that.
01:06:37
Speaker
And he was like, oh, well, I created this scholarship for college.
01:06:42
Speaker
like students who identify as queer, who identify as these different things and ended up getting invited to like a like a philanthropic event where they were raising money for that scholarship.
01:06:52
Speaker
And so I was in a room with obviously I don't know who they were, but I think that the connection that I have with that individual now is way stronger.
01:07:02
Speaker
And so I think, yeah, capitalizing on what you can and the organic times, I think.
01:07:06
Speaker
Absolutely.
01:07:08
Speaker
I love that story.
01:07:09
Speaker
I think that's absolutely right.
01:07:10
Speaker
It's like you're probably – and think about it.
01:07:13
Speaker
Like if you wanted to leverage that relationship in some way, it's like, oh, now I've got a connection to – I'm assuming it was a nonprofit.
01:07:20
Speaker
And it's like, oh, well, I can volunteer here and then potentially be – set myself up to maybe be on the leadership board or the board of trustees or whatever it is.
01:07:30
Speaker
It's like there's a pathway there that –
01:07:32
Speaker
now exists whether or not you want to pursue it but you can always activate that in some way through minor things along the way yeah absolutely i think about one thing i advise to people is and i i did a i mentioned this on the last podcast i did a program about this book and uh the the tangible takeaway in the moment was everyone pull out your cell phones and scroll all the way to the bottom of your text messages
01:07:59
Speaker
And then I think I got this also from the Jordan Harbinger show of like the script.
01:08:05
Speaker
And it was like the people at the bottom are your most dormant ties because obviously you've sent them a text message at some point in your life.
01:08:12
Speaker
If they're at the bottom, they're the most dormant and just text them a message like, hey, long time.
01:08:21
Speaker
Just wanted to see how you were doing.
01:08:22
Speaker
No rush to reply if you're busy.
01:08:26
Speaker
And it is, I used to do this, I go through waves where I'll do this all the time and then I won't do it for a long time.
01:08:31
Speaker
But it is unbelievable the messages you get back.
01:08:34
Speaker
And you're like, this is going to be so awkward.
01:08:36
Speaker
Like I've messaged RAs I haven't spoken to in like 15 years.
01:08:41
Speaker
And they're always like, oh my gosh, so glad to hear you.
01:08:44
Speaker
I've messaged people that I've actually terminated before just to see how things are going.
01:08:50
Speaker
And it's unbelievable.
01:08:52
Speaker
And I did it right before this show.
01:08:54
Speaker
And I messaged a former summer conference assistant in front desk work study from 2010.
01:08:59
Speaker
Our last text message was in 2018.
01:09:05
Speaker
I messaged a grad student from 2013-ish and a former colleague at UTA.
01:09:11
Speaker
And I've already gotten two responses back to them of people I haven't spoken to in four years.
01:09:17
Speaker
And...
01:09:19
Speaker
It's just neat.
01:09:20
Speaker
Like people want to feel valued and like reaching out may seem awkward to you, but like, think about it.
01:09:25
Speaker
If somebody random from your past reached out to you and just said, Hey, I just want to see how you're doing.
01:09:29
Speaker
It's like, it feels nice.
01:09:30
Speaker
Like it's not as awkward as it feels.
01:09:32
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:33
Speaker
And I always think about the other piece of advice I would give is like, you see all this information.
01:09:38
Speaker
There's all this input on like Facebook or Instagram about people's life.
01:09:42
Speaker
People bought a new house.
01:09:43
Speaker
I think I mentioned earlier, or they just had a baby instead of just posting in the hundreds of messages of congratulations, step it up one level and send them a private message.
01:09:53
Speaker
Or if you had a private message, like step it up and send them a text message.
01:09:57
Speaker
It's like, how do you be memorable in the sea of masses?
01:10:00
Speaker
And that's one way I would, I would recommend as well.
01:10:04
Speaker
As you were talking, I did that.
01:10:05
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, now I see who at the bottom of this list I'm going to start texting from 2017.
01:10:12
Speaker
Why did I just get a text from Dylan?
01:10:16
Speaker
The house of cards is falling.
01:10:18
Speaker
I'm joking.
01:10:20
Speaker
I'm joking.
01:10:20
Speaker
Intentionalism was made of a lot of people.
01:10:25
Speaker
But it was really neat because in that program, I did it twice, once as a student affairs and then again it's Wakuho.
01:10:32
Speaker
And like as people did it, like they would start to share who they messaged and how – like when they got a response, it was like, oh, I just messaged a childhood friend that we haven't spoken in 10 years and this is what happened.
01:10:44
Speaker
I mean it is unbelievable.
01:10:47
Speaker
And I use this example for we were, Dylan, you and I work on a college campus.
01:10:52
Speaker
You think about like engineering students.
01:10:55
Speaker
They work in group projects and everyone hates group projects.
01:10:59
Speaker
And everyone's always terrible in group projects and nobody has a good experience.
01:11:02
Speaker
But I'm like, you probably all exchange cell phones numbers, cell phone numbers.
01:11:07
Speaker
So think about what would happen if like after that class ends, you texted your group or individuals and just said, hey, remember that group project we worked on?
01:11:17
Speaker
who boy.
01:11:19
Speaker
And if you kept these people in your lives as dormant ties, you're already starting out your engineering job with a network of people who are also engineers.
01:11:31
Speaker
And then you're starting out a little bit ahead of the game because you've got a sounding board.
01:11:36
Speaker
It's like, Hey, we're now, but I'm working at wherever and you're working at wherever.
01:11:40
Speaker
Ooh, what do you think about this?
01:11:42
Speaker
Like, yeah, these people in the worthless group project, um,
01:11:47
Speaker
are now actually very valuable members in a growing engineering network.
01:11:51
Speaker
Yeah.
01:11:52
Speaker
Like at the bottom of my list, it's funny you say that I have four, five group messages.
01:11:58
Speaker
One's from a student organization.
01:12:00
Speaker
One is me and two friends that just made a group chat.
01:12:04
Speaker
And it's like, if I just randomly message this group chat, it's going to be crazy.
01:12:09
Speaker
But yeah, like one's from criminal justice, one's from our judicial council at South Carolina.
01:12:13
Speaker
And it's like,
01:12:15
Speaker
Yeah, like if you can tap into those dormant ties, like who knows where they are now, but to connect, yeah.
01:12:24
Speaker
I think that's a great takeaway, Stacey.
01:12:28
Speaker
If anyone does that, I said, everyone who's listening should do this.
01:12:32
Speaker
And then when you get a response, you should email me at swakuho at gmail.com and we'll feature you on an upcoming episode and tell your story because it really is unbelievable.
01:12:43
Speaker
And I know I've said that like a dozen times, but it's, it's incredibly fun to see these people from your past come back alive.
01:12:50
Speaker
No doubts.
01:12:51
Speaker
All right.
01:12:52
Speaker
As we look to close down any last minute thoughts, Sean or Dylan.
01:12:56
Speaker
I think I got them out.
01:12:57
Speaker
I've really enjoyed being on the podcast.
01:12:59
Speaker
Thanks for having me.
01:13:00
Speaker
Of course.
01:13:02
Speaker
I think my last thought is that as we kind of move forward and develop or however we respond to the different events that are kind of happening in higher education in the world, I think that the more we can connect with our ties and people that do challenge us, I think the
01:13:23
Speaker
better awful be.
01:13:24
Speaker
And so I would challenge people to start connecting with people that they might not make be super comfortable.
01:13:30
Speaker
Like, I don't know how to say what I'm saying.
01:13:34
Speaker
Yeah.
01:13:35
Speaker
Perfect.
01:13:36
Speaker
Well said.
01:13:37
Speaker
Yeah.
01:13:39
Speaker
And I would, the last thing I would say is just that the more you put in, the more you're going to get out.
01:13:44
Speaker
So don't look at your network as like a transaction of like, how can I get people to give me what I need?
01:13:50
Speaker
But instead look at it.
01:13:51
Speaker
How can I give people what they need?
01:13:54
Speaker
And then someday it'll return to you in favor.
01:13:57
Speaker
And I'm, I'm a big believer.
01:13:58
Speaker
And I've said it a number of times on this podcast.
01:14:00
Speaker
It's like, you know, give generously with no expectation on return.
01:14:04
Speaker
And then it is.
01:14:06
Speaker
I've told staff before, it's like, you know, if we think if we nail networking down to just being like favors, like I'm going to do you a favor.
01:14:16
Speaker
So you do me in a favor, like very transactional.
01:14:18
Speaker
It's like my goal in any job is just to do everyone favors that I never call in.
01:14:25
Speaker
And maybe someday I'll have to call them in all at once if I'm a real big jam.
01:14:29
Speaker
But, you know, it's like, how good is that value to a network that you're just constantly giving, which, of course, can be exhausting.
01:14:36
Speaker
But, you know, just think about those things.
01:14:38
Speaker
And it's not always about getting value from it, but giving value, which you'll later get in some capacity.
01:14:45
Speaker
That's awesome.
01:14:47
Speaker
All right.
01:14:47
Speaker
I want to thank both Dylan and Sean one more time for coming on the show and doing some live networking with us.
01:14:53
Speaker
Sean, I'm so glad that we both had Dylan in our network so that now we're connected.
01:14:59
Speaker
Yeah.
01:15:00
Speaker
Yeah.
01:15:00
Speaker
Dylan, really great to just happen to sit in the same room with you at one point on a programming committee meeting on –
01:15:06
Speaker
And now that we've connected on a deeper level.
01:15:09
Speaker
So to all our listeners, please use what you've learned today and reach out to both Dylan and Sean and just thank them for being on the show.
01:15:17
Speaker
And who knows, they just might become a weak or dormant tie in your network.
01:15:22
Speaker
And with that, I say to you, good day.