023 - The Friend of My Friend Could Be My Friend: Network Science [Book Club]

Transcript

Speaker: Welcome to the Swakuho podcast.

Speaker: Back on episode 18, we talked with Trey Stermer, Norma Ramirez, Felicia Perodin about building and fostering relationships with corporate partners.

Speaker: Today, we are revisiting the topic of networking by facilitating our third book club, where we are talking about the book, Friend of a Friend, Understanding Hidden Networks That Can Transform Your Life by David Berkus.

Speaker: We're gonna talk about the value of weak and dormant network ties, seeing your whole network, being network brokers, filling structural gaps, and much, much more.

Speaker: To help us today, we have a former Swakuho member and our very first non-university employee or corporate partner.

Speaker: Our first guest is Dylan Linder, who recently began serving as a community director at Georgetown University.

Speaker: Dylan got his start as a criminology and criminal justice major looking ahead to go to law school.

Speaker: After three years of legal experience, he decided that law school may not have been the best fit for him.

Speaker: With encouragement from his mentors and friends, Dylan began graduate school at Texas A&M University in 2021, seeking a Master's of Science degree in Student Affairs Administration and Higher Education.

Speaker: Throughout his professional career, Dylan has been intentional about networking and meeting people throughout his different experiences that have taken his journey through five states.

Speaker: Something unique about Dylan is that he has a vast array of interests from social sciences and history to music and creating things with his hands.

Speaker: Dylan, welcome to the show.

Speaker: Thanks for having me here.

Speaker: Our second guest is Sean Garrett, founder of Garrett PLLC, a law firm focused on serving the needs of businesses and their founders.

Speaker: As a business owner himself, Sean knows the advice and counsel needed by business owners at their different stages, including formation, purchase, growth, and sale.

Speaker: Sean has represented many companies, large and small, from startups to institutional investors.

Speaker: As a business lawyer, Sean knows the concerns of companies, their key employees, and how to advise them in their roles.

Speaker: Sean, welcome to the show.

Speaker: JC, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker: Look forward to being here.

Speaker: Good to hear it.

Speaker: Well, first things first, since we're talking about networking, Dylan, would you mind sharing how exactly the three of us know each other and how it came to be that we're all here today?

Speaker: Absolutely.

Speaker: So I, as a first year grad student, kind of jumped at the opportunity of going to a regional housing conference, which was Fukuho.

Speaker: Had a great experience there and took on some leadership roles with the programming committee my second year.

Speaker: And that's how I kind of met you, JC.

Speaker: And then prior to going to grad school in general, I met Sean.

Speaker: He was actually my managing paralegal or my managing attorney.

Speaker: I was his paralegal.

Speaker: And he's kind of did some advising and mentorship to actually get me back into grad school.

Speaker: I know we had some pretty intentional conversations in our time together.

Speaker: And so when we started talking about networking and kind of how I got here, I started thinking about Sean.

Speaker: And so connected you and Sean.

Speaker: And now here we are.

Speaker: And here we are.

Speaker: I love that word intentionality.

Speaker: You know, being intentional about those relationships, I think is so important to mentorship.

Speaker: So thanks for, thanks for using that word unintentionally.

Speaker: Well, no, it's very true that, I mean, we'll get into this, I'm sure, but networking is really like, how intentional are you in facilitating relationships and building them and more like fostering them over long periods of time?

Speaker: I mean, I think that's right.

Speaker: Exactly right.

Speaker: I have to ask you, since you both have legal backgrounds, is one of my favorite TV shows is Suits.

Speaker: Are you two familiar?

Speaker: And how real is it?

Speaker: So I can take it from a paralegal perspective for sure.

Speaker: I think about the paralegal and I don't know her name, but she sits in her office.

Speaker: Rachel.

Speaker: And Rachel always gets the hard stuff and the stuff that you have to go and research intently.

Speaker: And I think that that's pretty accurate in my legal experience.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Maybe less so working with Sean, but definitely in my prior legal experience, they would hand me files and tell me to kind of run with them and see what I could find.

Speaker: And it's kind of like a needle in a haystack.

Speaker: And you take back an empty folder and it's like, this is what I found.

Speaker: But thank you so much.

Speaker: I think...

Speaker: I'm actually rewatching the show, JC, so it's interesting that you bring it up.

Speaker: I think of all the characters on the show, the one that's the most spot on is an attorney by the name of Katrina.

Speaker: Now, Katrina, she is, you know, very smart attorney, extremely loyal.

Speaker: But don't cross her.

Speaker: You know, if you get on her bad side, it's hard to, you know, to change her mindset.

Speaker: But the thing that I think is the most important about her character is that she's constantly searching for affirmation of some sort.

Speaker: And I feel like that's just every attorney that I've ever known.

Speaker: From the most successful to, you know, people just enrolling in law school.

Speaker: Everyone's looking for affirmation of some sort.

Speaker: So great show.

Speaker: We all want to be Harvey, though.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I too am re-watching the show as we speak.

Speaker: So yes, it's so good.

Speaker: Number one takeaway so far is start watching Suits.

Speaker: It's on Netflix these days.

Speaker: Exactly.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It really upset me when they moved from Amazon Prime because then I had to like restart it.

Speaker: it wasn't automatically populating so on where i left off but anyway first starting suits isn't a bad problem though season one's probably the best season oh yes it's just so much drama yeah all right anyway let's start with we're looking at networks and we can call the people in our network do like ties

Speaker: There's strong ties, there's weak ties, and there are dormant ties.

Speaker: And the book talks a lot about these ties, so we'll keep coming back to that.

Speaker: So what are we talking about when we're talking about the various ties and what are some examples?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So I think a strong tie, I think a good example is like Sean.

Speaker: It's somebody who I think has intentionality behind the relationship that's built and they continue coming back to that central purpose of the connection or being a mentor, pieces like that.

Speaker: I think more so mentorship might be a better word than a strong tie, at least for me.

Speaker: But I think Sean is a good example of a strong tie and having that continued relationship.

Speaker: Throughout longevity, no matter how long it takes, we continue to kind of come back to the relationship that we built and fostered.

Speaker: I think that's a great point, Dylan.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You know, it's always interesting to me being a business owner for the last year, year and a half.

Speaker: the ties that intersect each other.

Speaker: I got a text last Friday from a gentleman that I do business with, but I also golf with him and play pickleball.

Speaker: So we're friends as well as business acquaintances.

Speaker: But he told me that he was at a networking event and someone said, I need a business attorney.

Speaker: And he suggested me, but then also another gentleman he didn't know suggested me as well.

Speaker: So then they got together and said, how do you know, Sean?

Speaker: And then, you know, those ties intersected.

Speaker: And next thing you know, the network's growing out further.

Speaker: I think about it, you know, kind of like Dylan brought up in two different ways.

Speaker: We never know where those ties are going to take us.

Speaker: We never know where the end of that string is.

Speaker: But seeing how they overlap and they intertwine, you know, week after week, day after day is it's pretty cool.

Speaker: It's really cool to see.

Speaker: Yeah, the way you described that, when we talk about, like, quote, network science, it really is kind of a science.

Speaker: And I just think about looking at big webs and how people are connected.

Speaker: And when I think about strong ties in my network, I think about, like, the people in my office I see every day.

Speaker: Like, whether we like each other or not, like, we're tied together very strongly because we see each other all day, every day.

Speaker: So then by comparison, what would be, like, a weak tie or, like, a dormant tie?

Speaker: Kind of going off what you said about a strong tie, I think a weak tie is someone you maybe meet a couple of times, don't necessarily have like intentionality behind the connection or it's just kind of brief.

Speaker: So if there is intention, there may be something that you can bring up and in a conversation.

Speaker: So if JC, if you and I had talked once, then maybe I could come back and say, hey, like I know that we talked about this the first time.

Speaker: And I think it leaves a lot of room to build.

Speaker: But sometimes I think there just has to be enough there that you can go back and revisit for it to be like an intentional like

Speaker: weaker tie.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And then our, our dormant ties are the people I think of, like I've worked with in the past who we haven't really stayed in touch, but you know, maybe we run into each other at a car.

Speaker: Like I think about old RAs who I supervised or old hall directors I supervise it.

Speaker: You know, we don't talk every day, every week, every month, sometimes even every year, but they're still part of my network, but they just might be a little more dormant that I could reactivate at any time.

Speaker: I guess is how I would look at that.

Speaker: Absolutely.

Speaker: I think kind of building on that too, I think a dormant tie I've recently connected with was the vice president at an institution that I've really had experience at.

Speaker: Can I say the name of it?

Speaker: Is that okay?

Speaker: You can say whatever you want, Dylan.

Speaker: Oh, snap.

Speaker: So recently I connected with a dormant tie with one of the with our dean of students at the University of South Carolina.

Speaker: I connected with him once in my last summer before transitioning to grad school and picked up his dissertation.

Speaker: I was like, this is actually kind of cool.

Speaker: Like, let's let's ask him about this.

Speaker: So I sent him a message on LinkedIn with some intentionality behind it of, hey, like I was looking over.

Speaker: your CV and just seeing kind of what you were interested in and found this.

Speaker: And that afternoon, he messaged me back and he was like, hey, call me anytime that you're free.

Speaker: And we can talk about like where you're trying to go, why you're interested in this topic and provided a lot of in-depth advice, discussion kind of around a PhD program or around whatever the next step is.

Speaker: But I think that was a really interesting dormant time at this guy once and he remembered me by name.

Speaker: And I was like, this is really, really cool.

Speaker: And that's a good example of a dormant tie.

Speaker: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker: Well, and I think that's a great example of how do you foster a relationship?

Speaker: Like if there's research out there, things people have published or unique things, and we'll probably come back to this.

Speaker: But I mean, I've had people reach out about articles I published, and it's like, we don't even we've never met like we are not ties until you sent that email.

Speaker: And now we are and whether or not it becomes strong or weak or dormant or anything at all.

Speaker: It's just

Speaker: The opportunity is there, whether it's, hey, I read your article, I thought it was neat, or hey, I saw you had a baby, or saw you bought a house or whatever.

Speaker: It's like there's plenty of things out there that can easily reconnect or activate those ties.

Speaker: Absolutely.

Speaker: When we talk about nodes in our network and ties, I often think of like recommendation letters.

Speaker: And I can't tell you how many times I've had people who have reached out, and as soon as I see their message, I know exactly what they're going to be asking.

Speaker: They're going to be asking, hey, I'm applying for a job.

Speaker: Can you give me a recommendation letter?

Speaker: And I stop and think, we have not talked for three years.

Speaker: I always think about like the problem, the quote from the book is like the problem with most of us is we, when we meet someone is we assume that if they are not immediately useful to me now, then it's a waste of my time.

Speaker: And that always comes up in my head when this is like, oh, they need me.

Speaker: So now they're reaching out, but there hasn't been any sort of like fostering along the way.

Speaker: Either way.

Speaker: So is this a problem?

Speaker: How do we avoid this?

Speaker: What are your both thoughts?

Speaker: I think typically when I, so I've been in a few different positions now.

Speaker: And typically what I'll do when I come into an organization is try to identify at least a few people that I'm either going to work with pretty closely that could provide a strong recommendation or someone that I hope to build that relationship with or use as a mentor of sorts for a recommendation.

Speaker: I think when you reach back to three years, like a lot happens in three years.

Speaker: Like I was working with Sean three years ago and I'm a completely, I wouldn't say different person, but a lot has changed since then.

Speaker: And so it's like, how do you, how does the recommender give like a,

Speaker: accurate representation of your strong, like your strengths, your weaknesses, or kind of what you're interested in at that point, if it's been so long.

Speaker: I think that would be difficult.

Speaker: I haven't written a lot of recommendation for someone three years ago, or from three years ago, but I think that that would be relatively hard.

Speaker: So, Sean, let's do a hypothetical here.

Speaker: If Dylan had you had not stayed in touch and today Dylan reached out to you and said, hey, I'm applying for a job and was wondering if you would serve as a reference, what would you think?

Speaker: So it's interesting hearing both of your feedback, because I know that you guys are pretty entrenched in academia, in the academic setting.

Speaker: So the answer would definitely depend on my tie and relationship to the person, of course.

Speaker: But the question that I've asked myself, because I've been in this position before, is why are they asking me?

Speaker: And so I try to think back on the relationship and I try to see if there's some positivity or some, what's the word I want to use?

Speaker: Some outstanding credential that they had in our relationship that they want me to highlight.

Speaker: And if I could speak to that, I would definitely write the letter.

Speaker: But if the relationship's just too far gone or if I don't have anything to write about, I would tell them that.

Speaker: The flip side of that, and this is a little bit more maybe psychological, maybe sociological, I'm not sure, but if they're truly coming to me, I end up feeling bad and I say, is there truly no one else in your life that you can go to?

Speaker: And maybe that's a mentoring opportunity where we start dialing in on what have you been doing the last year?

Speaker: Okay, maybe your relationship with your boss isn't that great.

Speaker: Who else in your organization could write that letter?

Speaker: And that's just me wanting to help them out.

Speaker: But to your point, three years,

Speaker: without some type of reasoning is it's it's hard it's it's not beneficial for the writer or the person getting it written for absolutely and i think the point then is like there's some there is a node in my network that i mean has kind of become less than dormant in the last like five years but i scrolled back through our text message exchange from like

Speaker: five to 10 years ago.

Speaker: And literally it was, hey, I'm applying for this new job.

Speaker: Would you serve as a reference for me?

Speaker: Sure, of course, kind of, Sean, what you were talking about, here's the things I'm capable of doing right now based on the longevity or the distance between our relationship.

Speaker: And then several weeks later, a month, hey, how'd that go?

Speaker: Heard you got the job.

Speaker: Are you liking it?

Speaker: Nothing, nothing, nothing, no response, no response, no response.

Speaker: Then, hey, I'm applying for a new job.

Speaker: Will you serve as a reference?

Speaker: And so like I try and foster certain relationships that there's no response until they need something.

Speaker: Yeah, that's that's different.

Speaker: In that case, that person's not getting a letter from me.

Speaker: You know, the the dog that you feed is the one that's going to be the strongest.

Speaker: And, you know, you're not going to have a strong recommendation for them.

Speaker: Even if it's just like social conversation along the way, every six months or something, hey, what's going on?

Speaker: How's this?

Speaker: Good.

Speaker: I don't need to do a full rundown of your last performance evaluation, but some level of we still have a relationship that is like, again, dormant for most of the time, but can be reactivated along the way.

Speaker: I like that you brought that up because I was going to ask this question and we got an answer.

Speaker: Could still be a conversation topic though, because I was going to say there's only 24 hours in a day.

Speaker: At what point can you truly foster multiple relationships?

Speaker: Over three years to not get a response except for twice, that's way too, you know, that's definitely not enough.

Speaker: But I have had relationships where someone wants,

Speaker: you know, maybe not daily, but weekly interaction.

Speaker: And that's a lot sometimes, you know, it's a lot.

Speaker: So I guess my flip side question is, how do you foster the relationships where people want too much and they possibly take it a little negatively if you don't give it to them?

Speaker: Yeah, I want you as a medium active node in my network.

Speaker: I don't want you that active.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I don't want you to be like silent.

Speaker: I don't want to talk to you every day, but you know, once every six months, that's good for me.

Speaker: Is that what it is?

Speaker: There's a sweet spot.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But I, I don't know.

Speaker: I,

Speaker: Being a person who networks a lot and is very compassionate towards relationships, it's something that crosses my mind.

Speaker: So I don't know.

Speaker: Oh, I couldn't agree more.

Speaker: And I think that's the whole point is like you don't – it's not always a transaction.

Speaker: Sometimes the transaction is just making sure it's still alive I think is the real point.

Speaker: It's like, Sean, I don't need to call you and be like, hey, I need help with this legal problem.

Speaker: Or you don't need to call me and be like, hey, I got this friend who's trying to get housing.

Speaker: It could just be like, hey, Sean, heard you just landed a big client.

Speaker: Or, you know, oh, it's your birthday.

Speaker: Happy birthday.

Speaker: Whatever.

Speaker: It's like, oh, as long as the network is still or the relationship is still active enough that it doesn't feel like I'm cold calling you out of the blue for something I need now.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Another side of that, too.

Speaker: I think you also like the person seeking out the relationship or trying to make the relationship or the network stronger with that person.

Speaker: I think it's really important to have intentionality behind that.

Speaker: Even when I go into one-on-ones with my supervisor, that's an hour a week that I get with my supervisor.

Speaker: And so to build a strong relationship with them, since I'm new in the position, how can I have questions prepared or what can I bring up and ask in those spaces so that my supervisor also feels that I'm not wasting his time, but that I'm really trying to take advantage of what he can offer?

Speaker: And so I think a lot of that also falls on the

Speaker: asker, I don't know what the better word for that is, but the person asking are to uphold that relationship.

Speaker: I think it's really important for them to have that intentionality behind it.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: There's a, the other podcast I used to listen to a lot, the Jordan Harbinger show, and he talks a lot about networking and value and all that.

Speaker: And one thing he says repeatedly is like, dig the well before you're thirsty.

Speaker: It's like you invest in these relationships in your network when you don't need anything.

Speaker: So then when you do, it's already active enough that it's not

Speaker: feeling that way.

Speaker: And I think that goes back to Dylan, your original point of like intentionality, being prepared that, you know, you're not coming with questions necessarily.

Speaker: You're coming with questions now because someday down the road, you're going to have a big ask.

Speaker: That leads a little bit into the concept of homophily, which is, you know, like begets like.

Speaker: The same attracts the same and creates what I call like, or others call it like an echo chamber within your strong ties.

Speaker: We're all like kind of that group think mentality within our office.

Speaker: We all think the same thing.

Speaker: So like having a more diverse network of ideas and thoughts and people from different professions is

Speaker: might provide more value.

Speaker: Is there any truth to this or any observations we've seen of this in action?

Speaker: I think there is.

Speaker: I will go back to Sean.

Speaker: I think that Sean and I coming in and working together, we had very different, I would say perspectives on different things.

Speaker: But I think that through the discussion that we had created a stronger relationship or a stronger, I would say relationship or stronger network with one another,

Speaker: I think that when we surround ourselves with people that think exactly like us, as the book says, it's much easier for us to find trust.

Speaker: It's easier for us to kind of spend time with those people.

Speaker: But I do a lot of reading of history and books.

Speaker: social science, pretty much anything that I can read.

Speaker: And a lot of times I find that the people who keep the most diverse circle around them, which the book also talks about, they're able to solve more difficult problems.

Speaker: They're able to challenge each other's opinion to the point that it's not just surface level, but it has depth to it.

Speaker: And I think that Sean is a really good example of that as well in our professional working relationship.

Speaker: Last week, I was actually posed the question, if I had a certain amount of money to spend, would I prefer to go to a conference or go to a professional development class?

Speaker: And I landed on a conference for the very reason that you brought up.

Speaker: I like going to conferences where I can learn from different thoughts.

Speaker: Sometimes I'll run into attorneys or business owners from different countries.

Speaker: And I'll learn how they're doing things in their neck of the woods.

Speaker: And it allows me to be better when I come back because I'm not just stuck in my line of thinking.

Speaker: Where I'm located, Charlotte, North Carolina, it's pretty large and diverse, but we're all in the same business community.

Speaker: So we end up getting into some group think.

Speaker: So to answer your question, I think that learning from other people is just extremely important.

Speaker: Well, I think that's a great example.

Speaker: And as someone who just got back from the Akuho iConference a few weeks ago, I often get more value sitting around the hotel bar.

Speaker: that with action taken back than I do from like sessions because it's like, here's the freewheeling random people jumping in and out of conversations about whatever topic is like most pressing in the moment.

Speaker: And sometimes those like, I've never talked to you before and you just said something that it's,

Speaker: valuable enough and different enough from what would come up in my own department that it's like now I've got something to move forward with.

Speaker: So I think that's a great example, Sean.

Speaker: I think about when we talk about homophily and the echo chambers is like, I believe strongly this is why whenever there's a new initiative or a new department who wants to do something new on college campuses and they want to do a big event, like an educational event, they always lean towards some sort of activities fair where why don't we just bring everyone together and they all have a booth and they all hand out junk and they

Speaker: There we go.

Speaker: And there's so many activities fairs every year and it's so tired.

Speaker: You're trying to get information out.

Speaker: Here's an example is several years ago, the student government wanted to do like an voter registration trial.

Speaker: And their immediate thought was, let's do an activities fair.

Speaker: Like, we just did one of those.

Speaker: We're doing another one in three months.

Speaker: It's the same stuff.

Speaker: But why don't you reach out to human resources who does benefit fairs

Speaker: And is that more aligned with registration and voter registration?

Speaker: Use that instead of this homophily of ideas that we've done over and over again.

Speaker: But I think even that's like thinking outside of the box, because I feel like no matter what institution you go to, they're always going to have like the activity fair or the event that does that.

Speaker: And so I think even trying to go a different route to HR, like I think that's going outside of that box or that echo chamber of sorts.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So let's look at seeing our whole network.

Speaker: We talked about like individual connections and reactivating connections along the way.

Speaker: How do we look at our whole network now that we're talking about weak, dormant, active ties?

Speaker: How do we make those observations or got brought up earlier about reactivating some of those pieces that may have fallen dormant?

Speaker: I think about this question because I think however you answer it is going to like set people's minds of, oh, this is why I deal in networks or, oh, this is like the negative parts.

Speaker: I think that a lot of people have about networking because I think a lot of people do it.

Speaker: Maybe not the best.

Speaker: But I think that when you look at your overall network, it depends on, I think, where you are and where you're trying to go.

Speaker: And not necessarily like who you can use or who you can reach out to to get there.

Speaker: But I think it's about finding the mentorship either through dormant ties, strong ties, even weak ties that can work.

Speaker: align with what your goal is to help you get there.

Speaker: And so for instance, like Sean was a strong tie when I was looking at going to grad school.

Speaker: And so I reached out and said, Sean, hey, I'm not really...

Speaker: super happy in my position right now, but I'm not going to quit.

Speaker: And he was like, well, what are you passionate about?

Speaker: And I was like, I really am interested in higher education.

Speaker: And he was obviously a strong tie at the time.

Speaker: And he connected me with his sister-in-law, her name is Veronica Pajorkman, who later mentored me through the Oshkosh Placement Exchange process to even get me to the opportunity to go to grad school and help me a lot in that.

Speaker: But I think that

Speaker: Had I not had the goal in mind of where I wanted to go, I don't think that I would have articulated that to even have a connection to get me to a resource that could help reach that goal, if that makes sense.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So Sean was a broker between you and his sister in that way, right?

Speaker: So you're someone who completely wasn't in my network, but really stepped up to...

Speaker: Because someone had also done that for her.

Speaker: And so I think when we do reach out to, regardless of where someone is in our network, I think it's important to obviously be intentional and to, I don't know, I lost that thought.

Speaker: That's okay.

Speaker: That's all right.

Speaker: Just keep saying intentional over because this is student affairs and you can't lose.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But Sean, you must have observed this in the private sector, in the legal world of like, you know, the whole network and valuing and understanding that like in terms of growing a new business and all that.

Speaker: I like that we're kind of tying this back into time.

Speaker: That's the first thing that comes back to my mind when I think about how do I keep my network healthy?

Speaker: How do I keep the entire network happy?

Speaker: All the ties there.

Speaker: And so one thing I do, because I know I don't have a ton of time, but I keep notes.

Speaker: And so if I see someone, I just make a note to myself.

Speaker: ask this guy to coffee.

Speaker: And then I will set that reminder.

Speaker: I'll just guess three weeks.

Speaker: Let's say I know I'm busy the next week or two.

Speaker: I'll set it three weeks in the future.

Speaker: And then I will get a random notification that says schedule coffee with, for example, Dylan.

Speaker: And it's not perfect.

Speaker: It's not foolproof.

Speaker: But when things pop up in my brain, I just got to do something with them.

Speaker: And it's not realistic to think I'm going to, you know, have coffee with every single person as I think about them.

Speaker: But I think that that's one way that I try to keep

Speaker: my network healthy.

Speaker: And earlier I asked the question about, you know, people who want my time weekly.

Speaker: I'm not great at keeping those relationships alive.

Speaker: So I have to be, like Dylan says, intentional about what I can do to try to make people feel valued in my network.

Speaker: I love that.

Speaker: Like that's a very tangible takeaway is like scheduled on your calendar.

Speaker: I've even at some points, like if I just had a conversation with somebody like a dormant time, I like I would cold call people on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving is my favorite day of the work, like work day of the year, because it's like nobody's here.

Speaker: Nobody really cares what's going on.

Speaker: And that's what I would just like cold call old people from my network.

Speaker: And then we talk and I would like delay send an email for like a month later, um,

Speaker: just following up whatever.

Speaker: And I think some people feel like, well, that feels so sleazy or it's too mechanical, it's not organic.

Speaker: And I'm like, well, the other option is not doing anything at all.

Speaker: And so- Exactly.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Right, Sean?

Speaker: So, I mean, the strategies we put into place to help facilitate these ties, I think, are very valid.

Speaker: And whether it's delay sending an email.

Speaker: I mean, one time I delay sent an email like so far down the line.

Speaker: It was like six or nine months.

Speaker: I completely forgot about it.

Speaker: And then this person responded to this email.

Speaker: It's like, oh, this person's reaching out to me.

Speaker: I was like, oh, they're responding to an email I wrote nine months ago, but didn't have it sent for an email.

Speaker: You know, you say it doesn't always work out.

Speaker: That was one of those cases in my case where it didn't work out for me.

Speaker: I think that's great.

Speaker: You know, I love what you said, and I'm actually going to quote you on that.

Speaker: Doing something, even as mechanical as it may be, is still better than doing nothing.

Speaker: That's great.

Speaker: I like that.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I mean, it's true because I get what people are saying, and I totally appreciate it when they're like, well, it just doesn't feel organic enough.

Speaker: Like, it's not a real – I was like, well –

Speaker: The alternative is doing nothing.

Speaker: So yeah, we're human.

Speaker: You're not going to get organic all hours of the day.

Speaker: It's just not going to happen.

Speaker: Right?

Speaker: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker: Sometimes you just have to know that I care.

Speaker: Exactly.

Speaker: And until I announced this on the podcast right now, nobody probably ever knew that I was delay sending emails.

Speaker: I just thought I was really, really intentional with our relationship.

Speaker: I may, I may tweet that.

Speaker: I don't know if Twitter stole a thing, but yeah, that's it.

Speaker: I'm going to for the masses.

Speaker: Well, as another example, there was someone I never worked with directly, but was at a school that I applied for and I'd met at a conference.

Speaker: And I was trying to build a relationship as like a potential of maybe I want to go back and work there someday.

Speaker: And the job opportunity never worked out, but I just kind of kept this relationship alive.

Speaker: Every six, nine months, I'd give them a call.

Speaker: You know, we just kind of chat.

Speaker: Never worked with each other, never really knew each other.

Speaker: And every time I called, he would say, gosh, you're so good at this.

Speaker: And I, I'm going to do better next time.

Speaker: I'm going to call you next time.

Speaker: I'm going to call you and never happened.

Speaker: And I was like, just, you know, he's like, how are you so good at this?

Speaker: I was like, I just put on my calendar and be like, you know, Sean, exactly your takeaway there.

Speaker: It's like, put on my calendar and you know, then, then do it.

Speaker: And I, I always think of that as like, there's little tools that we can do to just be a little bit better every day in that regard.

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Within the network, in the book, they reference a, I think it was a research study by Adam Kleinbaum on who moves up in organizations.

Speaker: And I think systemically, we think that it's the people who play the political game.

Speaker: But this research study actually revealed it's the zigzaggers, like people who cross silos, who have network nodes outside of their direct, their strong ties, but work cross-functionally.

Speaker: Is this something you all have observed or have thought about?

Speaker: I think this is something that I really enjoy doing.

Speaker: I think a lot of times, especially my younger professional career, I thought that my direct up, like my direct supervisory chain should provide mentorship, should provide all of these different checkboxes of what I needed as a person.

Speaker: And what I learned at a larger, or at Texas A&M is that that's not always the case, but

Speaker: Throughout the entire department, there are people who care and there are people who are really good at a lot of things.

Speaker: And so one person I go to in my head is Carly Smith, who was a blessing to work with for the two years I got to work with her.

Speaker: And she checked a lot of those boxes, but she also kind of allowed me the space to get that mentorship and get all those different pieces in a completely different side of business.

Speaker: the house of a 230-ish person department where I could then also somewhat connect with her network and get pieces of that.

Speaker: But I think that when you do that, it allows leadership to see that you're not...

Speaker: siloed and that you're not just doing this part.

Speaker: I can also help encourage Carly or I can help bring Carly's initiatives back into the residence hall and things like that.

Speaker: And so I think that doing the zigzag is really important for personal development.

Speaker: But also, I do think that when you do that, I think it allows you more experience and more exposure to more of the department, which I think helps you to move up like like that research you were talking about.

Speaker: I'm going back and forth.

Speaker: I'm zigzagging to an extent because I do see value in people who zigzag, cross-training.

Speaker: They have a very good understanding of the entire organization as a whole.

Speaker: But one life motto that I've kind of stood by is that people like doing business with people that they like.

Speaker: And so it seems to me that in the political sense,

Speaker: it's kind of a popularity contest.

Speaker: If someone does a good job and they're very well liked or respected, that person's probably going to move up faster than someone who just understands the entire organization, maybe a little bit better at their job, but they're disliked.

Speaker: So that may be a conflicting opinion, but it's mine.

Speaker: I think it really – I think I've observed both and I think the ones that it's like the people that play the political game are the easy – they're the low-hanging fruit to kind of bang on.

Speaker: It's like, oh, well, you only got this because this.

Speaker: But like your zigzaggers, it's like –

Speaker: expanding skill sets like Dylan, you're talking about, Oh, I'm working with Carly Smith on training development stuff.

Speaker: And now I'm kind of pulling that I've got a little bit of this.

Speaker: I've got a little bit of that.

Speaker: Uh, we talk a lot on this podcast about like niche skills, like very kind of niche things that people can do that others can't, which provide inherent and intrinsic value to others who, uh,

Speaker: You know, if you have a particular assessment skill that another department doesn't, they're going to be asking to reach.

Speaker: And now you're building relationships because of that.

Speaker: So, again, I didn't read the full study, so I don't know exactly what it says.

Speaker: But, you know, I think we've observed both and both can both can certainly happen.

Speaker: You know, at some point, I truly believe this.

Speaker: I think it comes down to luck in some, you know, in some manner.

Speaker: Luck or being at the right place at the right time.

Speaker: So maybe I'm speaking to some longevity.

Speaker: You know, the people who bounce from organization to organization aren't giving themselves the opportunity to just stay put.

Speaker: So the person who is in place, they are going to move up faster than either the zigzagger or the political person because the organization is more familiar with them.

Speaker: So yeah, maybe a little tidbit there.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Well, and to your point, like the longer you're in a place, the more opportunity for luck to go in your favor also happens.

Speaker: Exactly.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Longevity is everything.

Speaker: Like, and patience, really patience, really.

Speaker: 100%.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay, so we talked about Sean's sister helping Dylan.

Speaker: And so in that example, Sean, you were the broker between these two people where Dylan needed help navigating OPE.

Speaker: And Sean, I'm guessing you don't maybe even know what OPE is, but your sister does.

Speaker: I can Google it.

Speaker: So your value in that network is...

Speaker: is brokering that relationship, right?

Speaker: And so let's talk about how, like the value of brokers in networks and how that manifests.

Speaker: When it comes to people doing business with people that they like, that is how brokerage work.

Speaker: You know, brokerages work.

Speaker: I guess one sense of brokerage is someone paying for a relationship, but in the grand sense of the term,

Speaker: people are only really going to refer or promote or engage with people that they like.

Speaker: So I think that, you know, to that point, I was mentoring Dylan and he was receptive to it.

Speaker: If Dylan had not been receptive to that mentorship, I was not going to broker.

Speaker: You know, I wasn't going to introduce him to my network.

Speaker: So,

Speaker: At some point, there's a push and pull there.

Speaker: You hear old sayings like don't burn bridges.

Speaker: And we're talking about maintaining those ties and relationships.

Speaker: It's extremely important if you're willing to tap into someone's network and ask them to broker on your behalf, because that's what that letter of recommendation is.

Speaker: The brokers get more and more expensive as we move up and up the food chain.

Speaker: I also think to like brokerages is like when I so I now work at Georgetown and so recently went through the job search and I think it's very comforting like LinkedIn.

Speaker: when you can go and look up, okay, I know I'm interviewing with this person.

Speaker: Let me look them up, pull some information, be able to articulate that in an interview as to why I'm interested in this position or working with them in particular.

Speaker: And seeing that you have mutual connections down on your LinkedIn.

Speaker: I know that's happened.

Speaker: I did research with a professor named Dr. Salazar at Texas A&M, and she worked at Georgetown previously.

Speaker: And so going into the housing process,

Speaker: or the housing professionals at Georgetown's LinkedIn's and seeing that they're all connected with her.

Speaker: I think that also gives me confidence, whether it be talking to Veronica, who Sean connected me with, or talking to my now supervisors.

Speaker: I think it gives you confidence when you have those connections that are there.

Speaker: Not even if they're going to be a brokerage or not, but to know that I think that it still somewhat serves as a brokerage because you have this connection with

Speaker: I would say a world-class researcher and they have connections with these people.

Speaker: And so I think that LinkedIn is kind of an agreement where I agree that, that my network is going to interact with your network.

Speaker: And so I think that whether we use it or not, I still think there's a type of brokerage there that we can kind of tap into.

Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker: I actually I hadn't even thought about LinkedIn.

Speaker: But while you were talking about it, I remember this example of I was trying to track down somebody's dissertation from an Akuhoi presentation I saw probably 10 years ago about whatever topic.

Speaker: And I had tried to reach out like right at the beginning of the pandemic and trying to get this information.

Speaker: Wasn't having much luck.

Speaker: Fast forward three years and then I went on LinkedIn to see if I could dig them up again.

Speaker: And I saw a mutual connection of ours of someone who I was like, hey, can you broker over like, can you do an introduction for me to validate this cold call that I had done three years ago?

Speaker: And it worked like and then I got it was a three way conversation and like I'm going to just drop off now.

Speaker: But I've got you two connected and got a phone call going a couple of weeks later on that.

Speaker: So it was there's a lot of value to that.

Speaker: What you were saying about LinkedIn.

Speaker: I hadn't even thought about that.

Speaker: It's like a way to see potential brokerages.

Speaker: Mm hmm.

Speaker: I also think it's a more like social example, sort of.

Speaker: I used to live in an apartment complex and the person who lived two floors down from me, she was retired but taught piano lessons.

Speaker: And then I was working at a place where somebody's piano teacher had moved away.

Speaker: And I'm like, well, I can't give piano lessons and I have no interest in paying to learn to put piano at this point in my life.

Speaker: But there's two people who have needs and potentially I can connect them where I'm getting no value out of it other than making the connections for them to get value from each other.

Speaker: So I have a question about that.

Speaker: Do you think that when you reach out to someone, so say you're connecting this student who's looking for a new piano teacher with your neighbor, I think it's so rewarding when you say, for instance, hey, I'm here because I think that you're a great piano teacher.

Speaker: And this student is incredibly passionate about learning.

Speaker: In my head, I can't think of a brokerage where somebody wouldn't say, wow, like that feels really good.

Speaker: Whether they can do it or not might be a different story.

Speaker: But man, like they're seeking me out for my expertise or my passion area.

Speaker: And so I'm sure that brokerages sometimes don't work out.

Speaker: But in my head, I'm like, man, that's so cool when you ask someone to let them into kind of your area.

Speaker: I think that's so cool.

Speaker: No, I agree.

Speaker: And I think the funny part is, is like, I think you did an excellent sales job for both sides of this.

Speaker: But I had no idea if she was a good piano teacher or not.

Speaker: B, I didn't know if this person's kid even enjoyed piano lessons or not.

Speaker: So that's where it's like, I think I've heard it called like the double opt-in.

Speaker: It's like, hey, before I talk to both of you together, it's like individually, I might know this person who might be, you know, a value or whatever that is to be like,

Speaker: there so i don't know if they were passionate i don't know if she was passionate whatever but all i know is i happened to catch wind that she taught piano lessons because of like kids coming by and they didn't seem disappointed like and i don't i don't know that's maybe where we're just very candid about hey oh you know person i worked with i know you're looking for a piano teacher the person downstairs for me i don't know how good she is i've not seen any yelp reviews or anything but if you're looking to try someone out let me know and perhaps i can do an introduction

Speaker: JC, I think that's an interesting example of whether that was a strong tie, a weak tie, or a dormant tie.

Speaker: If that person was a dormant or weak tie, you probably would have used the, I don't know how great she is, even if you saw people going in and out of her

Speaker: her office all day, you still probably wouldn't vouch for her.

Speaker: But let's say you saw one person going there weekly, but you had a strong relationship with her.

Speaker: That's probably an instance where you'd say, great person slash piano teacher, not putting words in your mouth.

Speaker: But yeah, I think that when it comes to that brokerage, the sign-off gets more and more valuable or valid, maybe not valid is the right word, but valuable as that relationship grows.

Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker: I think that was so well articulated.

Speaker: And then because you're also putting your name on the line in some ways.

Speaker: And that's where it's like you talk about burning bridges earlier, Sean.

Speaker: It's like.

Speaker: I put this all in motion and then you did not come through.

Speaker: And now this other person not only is like upset at you or thinks you're a deadbeat, but because I was the facilitator of this.

Speaker: So there is a lot of value.

Speaker: Like if someone brokers a relation for me, like that's my number one priority is making sure I come through for that person, even if I'm the one that's supposed to be getting value out of it.

Speaker: That's a really good point too, I think.

Speaker: Any other examples of like brokerages you all have seen or facilitated yourself?

Speaker: in your jobs or your personal lives?

Speaker: Yeah, I'll give an example real quick because I think this one's probably the most interesting and it happened recently.

Speaker: I keep it pretty generic.

Speaker: I referred someone very, very close to me to an attorney that was also very, very close to me.

Speaker: And that relationship didn't work out.

Speaker: And I kind of sit back and think to myself, one, what is my

Speaker: what is the damage to my tie to both people since the relationship didn't work out?

Speaker: And two, how do I handle that moving forward?

Speaker: You know, when it, when it comes to strong ties that aren't strong with each other, you know, I think that that's another interesting consideration because you put some of yourself out there when you sign off on people and if things go south,

Speaker: we feel like it affects us.

Speaker: And I'm not going to say it doesn't.

Speaker: We obviously don't know how that other person, the person that was on the receiving end takes it, but it's, it's a consideration.

Speaker: I think something also to think about is who are you connect, like do both of your ties that you're connecting to, they need to be strong ties.

Speaker: Like, could you do that with weak ties?

Speaker: And then what is like, if it does go negative, like what are strategies y'all use to repair that?

Speaker: Well, if they're weak, the question is, well, it's not a question.

Speaker: We probably have our answer.

Speaker: We're probably not fixing that tie.

Speaker: The tie is probably being severed.

Speaker: It's a weaker tie.

Speaker: A much weaker tie.

Speaker: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker: I mean, in your, in that, that scenario, Dylan, I think what I would do if that were to happen to me is I would reach out and be like, I understand this person totally like didn't fall through, didn't come through with what was agreed upon.

Speaker: I know I recommended that.

Speaker: And I am personally sorry that I facilitated that.

Speaker: And I would then go to the other person and be like, look, this is what has happened.

Speaker: And this is how it's like, you've lost an opportunity for something to provide value to you.

Speaker: we've lost some level of trust in terms of like being able to vouch for you in that case.

Speaker: And how do you move forward from there?

Speaker: But I mean, I think you just got to own it on both sides.

Speaker: I appreciate that perspective.

Speaker: Sean, there's a guy in my network.

Speaker: His name is Javier Centoncio, who was a student government president during my first full-time job.

Speaker: Similar to you, he's the founder of his own law firm, specializing in veterans disability, estate planning, probate, and personal injury for veterans.

Speaker: He recently posted a message talking about hundreds of hours of both pro bono work he has done.

Speaker: But this wasn't real pro bono work.

Speaker: It was for friends and family who always ask for free legal advice.

Speaker: As we talk about providing niche skills and value and brokering relationships in networks, I've also heard the same from nurses who people always ask for free medical advice, which really isn't fair.

Speaker: Sean, do you find yourself having to draw lines somewhere on filling a structural hole or brokering a relationship in your network and earning what you deserve for your specialty?

Speaker: 100%.

Speaker: It is probably the toughest part about being in a professional services industry.

Speaker: I feel that for anyone with one of these professional services where people call on them.

Speaker: It's tough because you obviously don't want to, using some of the terms we've been using today, these ties, you don't want to weaken any of these ties, but you also internally want to value yourself and

Speaker: I don't have the answer to that.

Speaker: I definitely struggle with it, and I feel for every attorney, a doctor, a nurse, like you said, who kind of deal with it.

Speaker: But one thing I think I'm doing is trying to separate that personal and professional.

Speaker: With the professional services, we kind of – at least I do.

Speaker: I think that I am one in the same.

Speaker: I am my law degree, personally and professionally.

Speaker: And it's tough to separate the two.

Speaker: But I think that's what I need to do to – that's at least what I'm trying to do to move forward.

Speaker: Yeah, I agree.

Speaker: And someone posted a comment back to him that said one way to kind of draw that line or – and I think this is valuable to networks of like if you have a very niche skill or a specialized knowledge base of like, oh, so-and-so, talk to them about this.

Speaker: One person said, when I get requests for legal advice outside my limited area of expertise, I say, you can Google that easier than I can.

Speaker: And then somebody also said, and this is the most valuable one that I saw as a response.

Speaker: It said, I always ask them to do something first.

Speaker: Put the onus on them.

Speaker: Okay, here's what I need you to do for me to help you first.

Speaker: Write it all down.

Speaker: Give me the receipts.

Speaker: Print a thread of emails, and I'll take a look.

Speaker: They said nine times out of ten, they can't be bothered, and then I blow them off.

Speaker: Why should I help you if I can't be bothered?

Speaker: Yeah, I think that's tremendous.

Speaker: I like the part about them taking action.

Speaker: When I ask people to email me something, I typically don't get it.

Speaker: So they want to text it or they want me to write it down.

Speaker: But when it's free work, it's like, hey, let's get that in an email.

Speaker: Another thing that I've started doing is

Speaker: And I think that this is a little bit more on the legal side and maybe doctors as well, but I started trying to document the relationship.

Speaker: So in the legal field, we have these things called not retainers, but engagement agreements.

Speaker: A container agreement is very similar, but really it's money.

Speaker: But when it comes to an engagement agreement, an engagement just lays out the relationship.

Speaker: And I try to do that as early on as possible so that I can limit the scope of the relationship.

Speaker: And I can point out, hey, I'm willing to do X, Y, and Z for a small fee.

Speaker: But if it gets outside of this, just know that that's real work, that it's going to take real time.

Speaker: Yeah, I love that.

Speaker: And again, you have a very specialized degree, a very specialized knowledge base.

Speaker: And it's so easy just to ask someone a question without putting any thought like, oh, it's so easy.

Speaker: But then it takes a lot of bandwidth to process this very potentially complex legal matter.

Speaker: And I've had like, we go back to the, you know, people have reached out to me about like research I've done and I've like,

Speaker: I love it when that happens because I love talking about research articles I published.

Speaker: And then I'll, again, delay, send an email for several weeks later.

Speaker: It's like, Oh, whatever came of this.

Speaker: And it's so disappointing when I never get a response.

Speaker: It's like, it's so easy to ask.

Speaker: It takes a lot of time and effort to explain things, put it, you know, go to, go to a virtual class period or whatever.

Speaker: And then no validation afterwards.

Speaker: And I'm like, gosh, come on.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So do you feel like when you've had to do that, do you feel like you've put it like a diminishing return on the, like the value you're providing to your network?

Speaker: Or have you had any negative responses when you try to like draw a boundary?

Speaker: No, I actually think the opposite has happened.

Speaker: I have saved myself a lot of time.

Speaker: And I think that people have started respecting me more because they now see that I place a lot of value on my time.

Speaker: I think that's kind of the flip side when, you know, I want to do what's best for everyone and try to give answers quickly and, you know, try to, you know, help out the majority.

Speaker: it may actually diminish myself in their eyes because they're not valuing my time the way I value my time.

Speaker: So I think it's actually had a much more positive effect on my network and myself.

Speaker: Oh, that's great.

Speaker: Well, and I also think if we go back to mentorship, it's also like you're being a good, somewhat a good observation.

Speaker: It's like, this is how we do this.

Speaker: And now other people hopefully will pick that up and install it in their lives as well.

Speaker: Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker: I don't want to make this too legal specific.

Speaker: I know you're getting the opinion of an attorney, but this goes across industries.

Speaker: But growing up, I didn't know a single attorney, and my parents didn't know a single attorney.

Speaker: So it's always interesting to have conversations with my dad now where –

Speaker: He'll ask a question or he'll ask how to proceed with an attorney.

Speaker: And it's almost like I'm introducing the process.

Speaker: You know, most people don't know what the process is.

Speaker: Had I grown up with an attorney, I would know what the, you know, legal process is.

Speaker: But I started realizing that maybe it's just that people don't understand the process.

Speaker: And it's an education.

Speaker: It's an educational opportunity.

Speaker: So yeah, like in that case, instead of like very specific legal advice, you're actually just helping them understand and get comfortable with the process of moving through that process.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So if someone asks the question, they could say, Hey, Sean, I don't have a will.

Speaker: And then they kind of leave it open to me, you know, where in my head, they're asking me to prepare one.

Speaker: I could say wills are extremely important.

Speaker: You want to make sure that something happens after you pass.

Speaker: Sorry, I'm going to back up.

Speaker: Wills are extremely important.

Speaker: If after you pass, you have assets, they need a transfer somewhere, you should engage an attorney and ask him these questions.

Speaker: So kind of introduce them to the process and remove myself from it rather than stating, you know, hey, I'll just jump in and feel like I need to do it.

Speaker: I think that's a great example.

Speaker: And then your next statement is, can we get back to Thanksgiving dinner and watching?

Speaker: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker: But yeah, let me look back around and give a big shout out to Javier.

Speaker: And I know he's done a lot of work for veterans and helping them through, navigate challenging times and get them set up for success long term.

Speaker: So as we talk about dormant ties, Javier was actually a very dormant tie, as I have not actually spoken to him since 2018.

Speaker: Let's see, it would have been probably 2012, so 10 years.

Speaker: And I reached out to him before this episode and asked if I could reference his post because I thought it was very, very valuable.

Speaker: So Javier, keep doing what you're doing and thank you for all your work and service.

Speaker: Let's move on to super connectors.

Speaker: These are the people that know all the people and we see them walking around.

Speaker: You see them at conferences.

Speaker: They tend to know everybody.

Speaker: Do you all have any examples of super connectors in your lives?

Speaker: His name is Dylan Linder.

Speaker: I think Dylan, you do a really good job of growing out your network.

Speaker: In my local community, I do have quite a few, I'd say probably three or four,

Speaker: People who every time I look at them, I say, you just know everybody.

Speaker: And they pride themselves on having a very strong network and being able to place relationships with other relationships.

Speaker: I see extreme value there.

Speaker: I think there's value and there may be some opportunities for concern.

Speaker: It takes a lot of time to do that.

Speaker: It takes a lot of intentionality, like Dylan's been saying.

Speaker: I also think going into the job search, we had our former vice president at Texas A&M, Danny Pugh, or Dr. Pugh, I think he's an absolute super connector, especially in higher education.

Speaker: A lot of times coming into the field, we hear, oh, it's a small field.

Speaker: Oh, everyone knows everyone.

Speaker: And so going through the job search process, he would ask us in our class, he would ask, where are y'all looking for jobs?

Speaker: Like, what kind of jobs are you looking for?

Speaker: And regardless of what institution, what state, what region, he could pull out the vice president, probably dean of students, presidents, former presidents.

Speaker: And he was just open to connecting people together as vastly as they wanted to connect.

Speaker: I don't know what his experience with that has been because going back to what Sean said, I think that it is somewhat danger, not dangerous, but it could be scary because I think if you connect bad people enough times, eventually people are maybe you may lose some of that power or authority.

Speaker: I don't know power that you have.

Speaker: But yeah, I think that he's an absolute master of like networking.

Speaker: think that's a great point about you know just mass connecting you know you never know i guess what your perception is in other people's eyes if you are connecting people to jobs that aren't qualified or aren't doing the best job it can be it can be detrimental if you're not being selective

Speaker: Going back to my favorite word again, intentionality.

Speaker: Like, I think I'm really intentional when I do ask for that brokerage relationship or that connection, because that's also like my network as well, right?

Speaker: Like that's my tie at least to the broker and hopefully to that third party.

Speaker: But I absolutely think it's really important to be specific and precise with what you want or what you are asking for before ever like reaching or before at least brokering that out.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I think that brings up another good point of like, not all networks are created equal.

Speaker: And that, you know, we think about somebody who has no network, you don't have to be a super connector to like be able to facilitate a strong network.

Speaker: And I think the networks tend to have like an orbit or a gravity to them that as it gets bigger, it almost exponentially gets bigger because you're bringing other networks into your own.

Speaker: And so I think that's something to keep in mind is like people with who feel they have small networks is like all you need to do is like get connected with one person and access their network.

Speaker: And then it just grows exponentially.

Speaker: One of the lines I tagged from the book said every single person you meet has tremendous potential value to everyone else that you know.

Speaker: I think the book is really cool because it has the additional like workbook with it to like help you go through activities.

Speaker: One of my favorite activities that it had talks about asking like 10 people, I think it was between six and 12 people to dinner and they might know each other.

Speaker: They might not.

Speaker: It may be weak ties.

Speaker: It might be strong ties.

Speaker: But bringing all of those people together for dinner, because six is going to be enough where people aren't just going to like one off and have side conversations.

Speaker: But anything bigger than 12, you might.

Speaker: And I think that's a really cool way to.

Speaker: really maybe not be a super connector, but when you start doing that, I think from what the book talked about, like that kind of exploded into these huge parties where everyone then invites like one person to go.

Speaker: And I think that's a really cool concept and something that I really want to try kind of in this new experience that I'm in, in DC to do that, just to see kind of what happens because, you know,

Speaker: I think our networks are a lot of our time, a lot of times are untapped.

Speaker: And so trying to start somewhere and see what happens, I think would be really cool.

Speaker: And so remind me in that example, is it just like random people through like with different like focus areas in your work or is like all your work people or all your pickleball people?

Speaker: So I think it was a variety.

Speaker: I think they were all people with like something in common.

Speaker: Like I think it may have been like business owners or like small business owners and they brought them together.

Speaker: And then over time it like got further and further from like the central location.

Speaker: But I think it was kind of a conglomeration of people.

Speaker: Yeah, I think that sounds really fun.

Speaker: Do that and then report back.

Speaker: Will do, will do.

Speaker: You know what's been interesting, Dylan?

Speaker: I have not told you this.

Speaker: Little do you know.

Speaker: You know that you're in my Find My Friends.

Speaker: So whenever I look up to see where Katie is or someone else, Dylan will pop up.

Speaker: But for the last, I'd say month, month and a half maybe, you have been within a stone's throw of a good friend that I met in Charlotte and my brother.

Speaker: And you guys are all living in D.C.

Speaker: and none of you knew it.

Speaker: So now I pop open, find my friends and three of my ties are right there.

Speaker: And none of you guys know it.

Speaker: Those are my first two invites to my dinner party.

Speaker: Complete strangers, right?

Speaker: No, that's really cool.

Speaker: No, that is so wild to think about it.

Speaker: Dylan, you could have been standing in the coffee shop next to Sean's brother.

Speaker: Crazy.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And how wild would it have been if Sean texted you, like, look down the street and look for this person.

Speaker: Go two blocks up and take a left and see if you can find my brother.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: Oh, that's wild.

Speaker: That's hilarious.

Speaker: What a small world.

Speaker: Definitely.

Speaker: So that's a perfect tie in as we look to wrap up.

Speaker: We we've now talked about a dinner party that Dylan's going to host.

Speaker: We've talked about Sean scheduling meetings on his calendar to follow up with people or send emails.

Speaker: I've talked about delay sending other other tangible takeaways to either build networks or foster.

Speaker: We can dormitize that you all can suggest to our listenership.

Speaker: Something that I think is really important is letting your network know what they mean to you.

Speaker: It's something that's like very deep and sentimental to me.

Speaker: I know I've done it for Sean.

Speaker: I've done it for Veronica, the sister-in-law.

Speaker: I've done it for a lot of strong ties from the University of South Carolina.

Speaker: But I think that when you, I think a lot of times in the work that we do, especially in higher education, we're not oftentimes recognized for the work that we do and the extra mile that we go sometimes.

Speaker: And so I think that something that I try to do is be very intentional and direct with the appreciation I have for different people that are in my network.

Speaker: Because I think when we do that, it hopefully will eventually create like a system that repeats itself so that people are more generous and more thoughtful in the words that they use.

Speaker: And that's something that I think is really intentional and that I use in my network to continue fostering that relationship.

Speaker: And so even if it's a weaker tie, that's still something that we've discussed.

Speaker: And so I think that that's really important.

Speaker: Well, and even doing that is then fostering that relationship that may be dormant because I've heard people talk that tell like wonderful stories about people from their past who the best piece of professional advice they ever got, or just some like endearing story about someone deep in their past.

Speaker: And I always tell them,

Speaker: do they know that that moment was so meaningful to you?

Speaker: And they're like, probably not.

Speaker: I'm like, well, you should tell them because for exactly what you said, Dylan, it's so validating in jobs where we often don't get validation from our service recipients.

Speaker: And then by reaching out to be like, Hey, remember this time?

Speaker: And I just wanted you to know that that meant a lot to me.

Speaker: Now you have re-engaged a dormant tie.

Speaker: Absolutely.

Speaker: Yeah, that's awesome, Dylan.

Speaker: Good point.

Speaker: My last two closing points.

Speaker: My first piece of advice is going to be to plan.

Speaker: I look back on my undergrad and law school career, and I enjoyed all of my relationships, and I really enjoyed the people that I met.

Speaker: I wish I would have stopped and thought and maybe made a bit more of a plan about my networking and my connections.

Speaker: Of course, you can't really control that, but...

Speaker: I think that I could have grown some stronger connections had I thought where I wanted to be and at least put some more time and effort into growing those relationships.

Speaker: And then the last piece, I want to say all three of us are pretty outgoing individuals.

Speaker: So I'm going to be a little compassionate to those who are not as outgoing.

Speaker: I'm going to say like the, you know, Phil Knight says, just do it.

Speaker: If it means just going to one event and connecting with one person, I think Dylan touched on it earlier.

Speaker: He quoted from the book, that one connection is going to be much more meaningful or it's going to help grow your network exponentially.

Speaker: So I would say, you know, if you're not as outgoing and you're listening to this, don't think that you have to take all these tips and, you know, try to fit them into your very next networking event.

Speaker: Make a plan.

Speaker: Try to get better as you go, but just start because today is better than tomorrow.

Speaker: I think that's a great point.

Speaker: It's like just meet one person.

Speaker: It's like you do not have to build a network of a thousand people overnight.

Speaker: It's all scalable.

Speaker: It's like just look to make a connection with one person, follow up with them in two weeks, then follow up with them a month.

Speaker: You know, that sort of thing is like and build that habit.

Speaker: So it becomes a little bit easier along the way.

Speaker: I think one piece of advice as I've aged and gotten older is that I've, my network has probably grown faster when I've been organic about it.

Speaker: I think about like when I was younger at conferences and like trying to like rub elbows and introductions and tell people how valuable I was and

Speaker: But I feel like as I've gotten older and have a somewhat established network, like meeting people, I keep going back to the hotel bar.

Speaker: Like this is all I do at conferences.

Speaker: But, you know, the people that organically get brought into the conversation is like, oh, hey, those are the people I've found much easier to like organically facilitate a relationship long term with.

Speaker: And people like I sat next to and I'm trying to demonstrate like, here's my credentials and here's why I'm valuable to you.

Speaker: So I was like, my advice is like, don't underestimate those organic moments, wherever it might be.

Speaker: I think that's really important, too.

Speaker: I was at a.

Speaker: At an outing in D.C.

Speaker: And I had left a networking event trying to meet new people and ended up running into someone who works at American University, which is a 15 minute drive up the road.

Speaker: And we started talking about like kind of our journey into education in general, college and being a first in college student, things like that.

Speaker: And he was like, oh, well, I created this scholarship for college.

Speaker: like students who identify as queer, who identify as these different things and ended up getting invited to like a like a philanthropic event where they were raising money for that scholarship.

Speaker: And so I was in a room with obviously I don't know who they were, but I think that the connection that I have with that individual now is way stronger.

Speaker: And so I think, yeah, capitalizing on what you can and the organic times, I think.

Speaker: Absolutely.

Speaker: I love that story.

Speaker: I think that's absolutely right.

Speaker: It's like you're probably – and think about it.

Speaker: Like if you wanted to leverage that relationship in some way, it's like, oh, now I've got a connection to – I'm assuming it was a nonprofit.

Speaker: And it's like, oh, well, I can volunteer here and then potentially be – set myself up to maybe be on the leadership board or the board of trustees or whatever it is.

Speaker: It's like there's a pathway there that –

Speaker: now exists whether or not you want to pursue it but you can always activate that in some way through minor things along the way yeah absolutely i think about one thing i advise to people is and i i did a i mentioned this on the last podcast i did a program about this book and uh the the tangible takeaway in the moment was everyone pull out your cell phones and scroll all the way to the bottom of your text messages

Speaker: And then I think I got this also from the Jordan Harbinger show of like the script.

Speaker: And it was like the people at the bottom are your most dormant ties because obviously you've sent them a text message at some point in your life.

Speaker: If they're at the bottom, they're the most dormant and just text them a message like, hey, long time.

Speaker: Just wanted to see how you were doing.

Speaker: No rush to reply if you're busy.

Speaker: And it is, I used to do this, I go through waves where I'll do this all the time and then I won't do it for a long time.

Speaker: But it is unbelievable the messages you get back.

Speaker: And you're like, this is going to be so awkward.

Speaker: Like I've messaged RAs I haven't spoken to in like 15 years.

Speaker: And they're always like, oh my gosh, so glad to hear you.

Speaker: I've messaged people that I've actually terminated before just to see how things are going.

Speaker: And it's unbelievable.

Speaker: And I did it right before this show.

Speaker: And I messaged a former summer conference assistant in front desk work study from 2010.

Speaker: Our last text message was in 2018.

Speaker: I messaged a grad student from 2013-ish and a former colleague at UTA.

Speaker: And I've already gotten two responses back to them of people I haven't spoken to in four years.

Speaker: And...

Speaker: It's just neat.

Speaker: Like people want to feel valued and like reaching out may seem awkward to you, but like, think about it.

Speaker: If somebody random from your past reached out to you and just said, Hey, I just want to see how you're doing.

Speaker: It's like, it feels nice.

Speaker: Like it's not as awkward as it feels.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I always think about the other piece of advice I would give is like, you see all this information.

Speaker: There's all this input on like Facebook or Instagram about people's life.

Speaker: People bought a new house.

Speaker: I think I mentioned earlier, or they just had a baby instead of just posting in the hundreds of messages of congratulations, step it up one level and send them a private message.

Speaker: Or if you had a private message, like step it up and send them a text message.

Speaker: It's like, how do you be memorable in the sea of masses?

Speaker: And that's one way I would, I would recommend as well.

Speaker: As you were talking, I did that.

Speaker: And I'm like, okay, now I see who at the bottom of this list I'm going to start texting from 2017.

Speaker: Why did I just get a text from Dylan?

Speaker: The house of cards is falling.

Speaker: I'm joking.

Speaker: I'm joking.

Speaker: Intentionalism was made of a lot of people.

Speaker: But it was really neat because in that program, I did it twice, once as a student affairs and then again it's Wakuho.

Speaker: And like as people did it, like they would start to share who they messaged and how – like when they got a response, it was like, oh, I just messaged a childhood friend that we haven't spoken in 10 years and this is what happened.

Speaker: I mean it is unbelievable.

Speaker: And I use this example for we were, Dylan, you and I work on a college campus.

Speaker: You think about like engineering students.

Speaker: They work in group projects and everyone hates group projects.

Speaker: And everyone's always terrible in group projects and nobody has a good experience.

Speaker: But I'm like, you probably all exchange cell phones numbers, cell phone numbers.

Speaker: So think about what would happen if like after that class ends, you texted your group or individuals and just said, hey, remember that group project we worked on?

Speaker: who boy.

Speaker: And if you kept these people in your lives as dormant ties, you're already starting out your engineering job with a network of people who are also engineers.

Speaker: And then you're starting out a little bit ahead of the game because you've got a sounding board.

Speaker: It's like, Hey, we're now, but I'm working at wherever and you're working at wherever.

Speaker: Ooh, what do you think about this?

Speaker: Like, yeah, these people in the worthless group project, um,

Speaker: are now actually very valuable members in a growing engineering network.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Like at the bottom of my list, it's funny you say that I have four, five group messages.

Speaker: One's from a student organization.

Speaker: One is me and two friends that just made a group chat.

Speaker: And it's like, if I just randomly message this group chat, it's going to be crazy.

Speaker: But yeah, like one's from criminal justice, one's from our judicial council at South Carolina.

Speaker: And it's like,

Speaker: Yeah, like if you can tap into those dormant ties, like who knows where they are now, but to connect, yeah.

Speaker: I think that's a great takeaway, Stacey.

Speaker: If anyone does that, I said, everyone who's listening should do this.

Speaker: And then when you get a response, you should email me at swakuho at gmail.com and we'll feature you on an upcoming episode and tell your story because it really is unbelievable.

Speaker: And I know I've said that like a dozen times, but it's, it's incredibly fun to see these people from your past come back alive.

Speaker: No doubts.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: As we look to close down any last minute thoughts, Sean or Dylan.

Speaker: I think I got them out.

Speaker: I've really enjoyed being on the podcast.

Speaker: Thanks for having me.

Speaker: Of course.

Speaker: I think my last thought is that as we kind of move forward and develop or however we respond to the different events that are kind of happening in higher education in the world, I think that the more we can connect with our ties and people that do challenge us, I think the

Speaker: better awful be.

Speaker: And so I would challenge people to start connecting with people that they might not make be super comfortable.

Speaker: Like, I don't know how to say what I'm saying.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Perfect.

Speaker: Well said.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I would, the last thing I would say is just that the more you put in, the more you're going to get out.

Speaker: So don't look at your network as like a transaction of like, how can I get people to give me what I need?

Speaker: But instead look at it.

Speaker: How can I give people what they need?

Speaker: And then someday it'll return to you in favor.

Speaker: And I'm, I'm a big believer.

Speaker: And I've said it a number of times on this podcast.

Speaker: It's like, you know, give generously with no expectation on return.

Speaker: And then it is.

Speaker: I've told staff before, it's like, you know, if we think if we nail networking down to just being like favors, like I'm going to do you a favor.

Speaker: So you do me in a favor, like very transactional.

Speaker: It's like my goal in any job is just to do everyone favors that I never call in.

Speaker: And maybe someday I'll have to call them in all at once if I'm a real big jam.

Speaker: But, you know, it's like, how good is that value to a network that you're just constantly giving, which, of course, can be exhausting.

Speaker: But, you know, just think about those things.

Speaker: And it's not always about getting value from it, but giving value, which you'll later get in some capacity.

Speaker: That's awesome.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: I want to thank both Dylan and Sean one more time for coming on the show and doing some live networking with us.

Speaker: Sean, I'm so glad that we both had Dylan in our network so that now we're connected.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Dylan, really great to just happen to sit in the same room with you at one point on a programming committee meeting on –

Speaker: And now that we've connected on a deeper level.

Speaker: So to all our listeners, please use what you've learned today and reach out to both Dylan and Sean and just thank them for being on the show.

Speaker: And who knows, they just might become a weak or dormant tie in your network.

Speaker: And with that, I say to you, good day.