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020 - Mentorship On-Demand - Answering Listener Questions (Vol. 2)
4 Plays2 years ago
This month is our second round of asking the most important questions of all: your questions! That's right, our panel today is responding to listener questions. Coming back on the show is Adonis Thompson, Maggie Guzman, and Ken Stoner who give advice and some tough love to the following questions:
- Should you look to leave your job when you don't really like your supervisor but love your departmental leadership?
- Is there a way to get out of being required to move halls after two years of employment?
- What to do if you always feel out of the loop?
- How do you respond if your staff always complains and never feels your efforts to advocate on their behalf is good enough?
Download the Reflection Guide! (forthcoming) - If you put anything into action from the Podcast, please consider sharing it via swacuhopodcast@gmail.com and you may get featured on an upcoming episode. Serve your region by coming up with reflection questions for this episode. Submit them to swacuhopodcast@gmail.com and you'll get your name on the reflection guide for everyone to see your contribution!
Seeking professional advice? Fill out this anonymous form and a panel of housing staff will give you their take on your situation on an upcoming podcast.
Guests Past Episodes:
009 - Reflections from a Black President | Adonis Thompson [SWACUHO Podcast]
010 - Read, File, Delete, or Ignore? Email Management | Monique Burkley and Maggie Guzman [SWACUHO Podcast]
015 - Reflections on Coming Full Circle | Ken Stoner [SWACUHO Podcast]
Other Past Episodes Mentioned:
001 - Reflections on a Single Institution Career | Kent Sampson [SWACUHO Podcast]
003 - Resident Assistant Hiring Practices | Craig Seager [SWACUHO Podcast]
002 - Meaningful Moments in Campus Housing | Apefa Cooper and Maddie Reid [SWACUHO Podcast]
Recommended![025 - Fun Topics from the ACUHO-I Community Forum | Joel Gatti [Feature Topic] image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=112,quality=85/image-files/605db9539a00e40074826685/733e7e3d-9d73-4dce-9fd9-65d29d14b4dd.)
Transcript
Celebrating Milestones and New Additions
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Swakuho podcast.
00:00:02
Speaker
Thanks for joining again this month.
00:00:04
Speaker
I'm excited to announce that in the last month, we had our fourth episode reach 100 downloads.
00:00:10
Speaker
It's episode one, Reflections on a Single Institution Career with Kent Sampson.
00:00:15
Speaker
Kent now joins episode three, Resident Assistant Hiring Decisions with Craig Seeger.
00:00:20
Speaker
Episode 13, Reflections on Coming Full Circle with Ken Stoner.
00:00:25
Speaker
And Episode 2, Meaningful Moments in Campus Housing with Apefa Cooper and Maddie Reed as having reached 100 downloads.
00:00:33
Speaker
If you are new to the show, those four are a good place to start to get a good sampling of what the show offers.
00:00:39
Speaker
We have a handful of other episodes that are reaching that milestone, so be on the lookout for future social media posts.
00:00:45
Speaker
We also uploaded another reflection guide, this time for Episode 5, Reflections on Professional Families with Tanya Massey.
00:00:52
Speaker
This guide was submitted by Carly Smith at Texas A&M University after being used in their professional development series, Popcorn and Podcasts.
00:01:01
Speaker
If you see an episode without a reflection guide, feel free to submit some discussion questions to suakuhopodcast at gmail.com and I will get them posted.
00:01:10
Speaker
giving you full credit.
00:01:12
Speaker
Talk about a tangible deliverable to put on your resume.
00:01:15
Speaker
But enough housekeeping.
Mentorship and Advice: Panel Introduction
00:01:17
Speaker
Today we have our second round of what I'm calling mentorship on demand, where our panel of guests is going to answer the most important questions of all, your questions and your requests for advice.
00:01:29
Speaker
Having a sample size of two now, I personally find these episodes among my favorites.
00:01:34
Speaker
I think it is important to get advice from people outside your direct echo chamber because often it is more practical and certainly more objective.
00:01:42
Speaker
To answer your questions today, we have a very prestigious panel, but not because of their years of experience and not because of their service to the profession and not because of their various accolades, but rather because of their download stats on their past episodes of this very podcast.
00:02:00
Speaker
And also because I knew they would say yes when I asked them to come back on the show.
00:02:05
Speaker
All jokes aside, I know each of our guests have personally invested considerable time and energy in the development of staff at all levels and will not only give very tangible advice, but also won't withhold some tough love if needed.
00:02:20
Speaker
Because this episode is about you, I'm not doing the traditional full bios.
00:02:24
Speaker
So if you want to learn more about our guests, please check out their past episodes, which will be linked in the show notes.
00:02:31
Speaker
Our first guest is Adonis Thompson, who is a project consultant at StarRes, and the guest of Episode 9, Reflections of a Black President.
00:02:40
Speaker
Adonis, welcome back to the show.
00:02:43
Speaker
Glad to be here, man.
00:02:44
Speaker
Thanks for giving me this opportunity and looking forward to talking about whatever comes up.
00:02:49
Speaker
Our second guest is Maggie Guzman, Associate Director at Texas A&M University, and the guest of Episode 10, Read, File, Delete, or Ignore, Email Management.
00:03:01
Speaker
Maggie, welcome back to the show.
00:03:03
Speaker
Hi, JC.
00:03:04
Speaker
Thanks for having me back.
00:03:06
Speaker
I'm excited.
00:03:07
Speaker
And our third guest is Dr. Ken Stoner, retired Associate Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs at the University of Tennessee and guest of Episode 15, Reflections on Coming Full Circle.
00:03:18
Speaker
Ken, welcome back to the show.
00:03:21
Speaker
Thank you very much.
00:03:22
Speaker
It's great to be back.
00:03:23
Speaker
Thank you.
Do You Prefer Giving Advice When Asked or Unsolicited?
00:03:24
Speaker
So first things first, and before we get to any of the questions, I'd like to know something about each of you related to giving advice.
00:03:31
Speaker
Do you prefer giving advice when requested or just offering unsolicited advice?
00:03:36
Speaker
So I think my staff would tell you that as a developer, because that's my number one strength, I just naturally give advice unsolicited.
00:03:45
Speaker
And sometimes it's not always appreciated.
00:03:49
Speaker
So I would say I tend to do it unsolicited, but I'm always happy to provide advice if it's asked for, for sure.
00:03:56
Speaker
It's, I think, a little bit of both for me.
00:03:59
Speaker
It just kind of comes down to the situation.
00:04:01
Speaker
And back when I was in the field, it was big time of like watching staff doing their thing.
00:04:06
Speaker
And if I saw issues, it was like, hey, this is the moment to step in and say something.
00:04:12
Speaker
I would definitely come in and offer advice at that point.
00:04:15
Speaker
But typically, I like to see them work their way through a process.
00:04:19
Speaker
And then step up and say, hey, how would you tackle this and then pick it up from there?
00:04:23
Speaker
So I try to give them the opportunity to throw it at them.
00:04:27
Speaker
Yeah, I agree very much with what Donis has said.
00:04:30
Speaker
Actually, both of you.
00:04:31
Speaker
But it tends to be situational, I think, for me.
00:04:35
Speaker
You can tell a readiness whether the person's ready for any feedback or not.
00:04:39
Speaker
And that seems opportune.
00:04:40
Speaker
It's a great time to reinforce a point.
00:04:42
Speaker
I will say, though, JC, I've learned as the parent of a teenage daughter that sometimes it's best to say, do you want advice?
00:04:51
Speaker
Do you want me to help you fix your problem?
00:04:52
Speaker
Or do you just want me to listen?
00:04:54
Speaker
That sounds like good marriage advice, too.
00:04:57
Speaker
I think I picked that up along the way somewhere.
Should You Stay in a Job with a Respected Department but Poor Supervisor?
00:05:00
Speaker
That I've gotten better at over the years.
00:05:03
Speaker
Well, it's good to know.
00:05:04
Speaker
And actually, I had a last minute call in question right before we sat down here.
00:05:08
Speaker
So Maggie, somebody wants to know in the 10 months since your episode, how many emails do you have in your inbox today?
00:05:18
Speaker
Oh, man.
00:05:19
Speaker
Hold, please.
00:05:20
Speaker
While I pull it up.
00:05:21
Speaker
You really don't want to know.
00:05:22
Speaker
62,140 in my inbox today.
00:05:26
Speaker
Okay.
00:05:27
Speaker
Well, I think we can call this episode a wrap now.
00:05:30
Speaker
We've got all the information we really needed.
00:05:32
Speaker
I know.
00:05:33
Speaker
There are listeners right now who are cringing.
00:05:35
Speaker
I can feel it.
00:05:36
Speaker
I can feel it.
00:05:38
Speaker
All right.
00:05:38
Speaker
So let's get to it.
00:05:39
Speaker
Here's our first legitimate question.
00:05:41
Speaker
Our listener wrote, I haven't been able to come to grasp with something I heard on episode 13 with Dr. Ken Stoner.
00:05:48
Speaker
His piece of advice was only work for someone you respect.
00:05:53
Speaker
I can't quite put it into words, but something about that really resonated with me.
00:05:58
Speaker
It's not that I disrespect my supervisor, but I don't really respect this person that much.
00:06:04
Speaker
But I completely respect my departmental leadership above this person and value my somewhat limited interactions with them.
00:06:11
Speaker
My peers in the department talk about how much they love their supervisors and how invested their supervisors are in them, but I'm just not there and I'm not sure I ever will be.
00:06:21
Speaker
Should I start looking to move on?
00:06:23
Speaker
Well, Ken, since you're referencing this one, you want to kick it off?
00:06:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's a tough one for the individual.
00:06:31
Speaker
But I think when I say respect, you know, does your supervisor work with you to help you get better at your job, get better as a person, get better, you know, improve yourself for advancement?
00:06:42
Speaker
I mean, is the supervisor working with you and take a legitimate interest in you?
00:06:45
Speaker
I think you can respect somebody like that.
00:06:47
Speaker
But if your supervisor just wants you to stay in your own lane, do your own job, not move anything that would beyond that, I think that's problematic.
00:06:56
Speaker
So I think it's more like a partnership if the supervisor works with you, because certainly they should be your senior or they would be the one in a helpful position to help you get better as a person, get better as your job or improve your advancement.
00:07:12
Speaker
So I think those would be the things to look for.
00:07:14
Speaker
Yeah, I...
00:07:16
Speaker
This is a hard question because I guess for me, you know, at some points in your career, yes, you have a direct supervisor, but you also work for your department.
00:07:26
Speaker
So I think my question to whoever posed this particular question would be, are there opportunities for you to advance within your department?
00:07:36
Speaker
And if so, are those opportunities completely dependent upon your current supervisor?
00:07:42
Speaker
If the answer is no, then I would probably advise this person to hang in there.
00:07:47
Speaker
It sounds like there maybe are some really good mentorship opportunities for this person within their department.
00:07:53
Speaker
Sometimes your supervisor is your mentor and sometimes they're not.
00:07:58
Speaker
And I think that's okay.
00:07:59
Speaker
So I think if the culture of their particular department would support them reaching out to some of the other leadership that they referenced and trying to forge a
00:08:10
Speaker
some mentorship type relationships, then I think there could be value in continuing to stay there, particularly if there would be some room for advancement where you might end up working for a different person in the department that you maybe respect a little more than your supervisor.
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah, what you said was exactly where I was about to go with is that looking at the, if you see people that are
00:08:35
Speaker
the supervisor of your supervisor that you enjoy being around and can talk to, trying to seek that opportunity to get mentorship from them and just building on that relationship.
The Role of Mentorship and Managing Job Misery
00:08:46
Speaker
But also just kind of looking at the aspect of when we think about respecting our supervisor, where does the line of disrespect come into play?
00:08:55
Speaker
Is it something that it's a personal thing that you don't respect about them?
00:08:59
Speaker
And it's like, you know what, this is making me
00:09:01
Speaker
question my belief system about working here and different things like that, then that may say, hey, I might need to make a change because that's culturally, you know, as you're trying to move forward to become a professional, it causes a problem.
00:09:13
Speaker
But if it's just like, well, I don't like the fact that they come in at 930 when the rest of us come in at nine, you know, that's kind of one of those things that's going to happen no matter what job you take.
00:09:23
Speaker
You're going to see some little tidbits like that that you're just not going to agree with.
00:09:26
Speaker
But
00:09:27
Speaker
You have to see where is it hitting that point of your tipping point of where the respect falls off.
00:09:32
Speaker
But definitely seek out, like Maggie said, those other chances to get mentorship.
00:09:37
Speaker
Well, Adonis, I will tack on to what you're saying about those those tidbits.
00:09:42
Speaker
And depending on this relationship, it can be very easy to.
00:09:46
Speaker
to start nitpicking up about every little thing that this person does that bothers you or you don't respect.
00:09:55
Speaker
And I think that's something to be very mindful of because it can very quickly spin out of control into where a somewhat relatively otherwise decent person is now totally awful and can't do anything right because they come in five minutes late every day and now you're like counting how many minutes they weren't at work.
00:10:14
Speaker
It's like you've now focused on all the negatives.
00:10:18
Speaker
And the other thing I might suggest is like, is there a or I would ask is the assessment of the supervisor actually fair about the relationship?
00:10:29
Speaker
There's too much expectation coming in or is it a very legitimate supervisory relationship, but it wasn't what they were built up to experience?
00:10:39
Speaker
or said it was going to be like this life-changing relationship.
00:10:42
Speaker
And those are things that I think are important to keep in mind.
00:10:45
Speaker
Definitely.
00:10:47
Speaker
Especially if like patience is a virtue in this regard, like, you know, you all have suggested that wait it out or wait till the relationship develops, but you always have to bid out back to them.
00:10:58
Speaker
The fact that some lack of details provides, it doesn't have some context, but I mean, it can certainly be applied everywhere.
00:11:04
Speaker
Well, let's just say, what if this person was just, the supervisor was an awful person, like,
00:11:08
Speaker
What courses could possibly be explored?
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:13
Speaker
So one of the pieces of advice that I give anybody who will listen to it is misery is optional.
00:11:20
Speaker
So no matter what your circumstances, whether it's your job, whether it's relationship, whether it's having headache and not wanting to get out of bed to take some Tylenol, right?
00:11:31
Speaker
Misery is optional.
00:11:32
Speaker
So I think really this person is going to have to really get introspective and ask themselves, what
00:11:40
Speaker
is the grass really greener?
00:11:42
Speaker
Am I, did I create an experience in my head that I'm not having?
00:11:47
Speaker
And is that really a realistic expectation?
00:11:50
Speaker
I think that they need to ask themselves, have they communicated their expectations to their supervisor?
00:11:55
Speaker
Because you can not necessarily, to me, not jiving with a supervisor, which is kind of what it sounds like is happening with this person is completely different than not respecting.
00:12:06
Speaker
your supervisor.
00:12:08
Speaker
So I would say if you are really in a place where you've gotten to the point where you dread interacting with your supervisor, you really try to avoid meetings with your supervisor, and you think that the things they're doing are unethical or immoral, then yeah, it's probably time for you to look.
00:12:28
Speaker
Because at some point, if that person's not being held accountable for that kind of behavior, then that could signify a bigger
00:12:34
Speaker
problem in the department.
00:12:36
Speaker
So, you know, I think everybody has to kind of really ask themselves, am I still getting anything from this experience?
00:12:44
Speaker
And if the answer is no, then sure, it's time to move on.
00:12:48
Speaker
And even with a negative experience at times, and I think I may have, I know I mentioned this during SWACUHOU is that even with what could be considered a bad supervisor and experience, there's still something you can learn from that.
00:13:02
Speaker
It's that opportunity to just say, okay, I see what I don't want to be and what I don't want to do as I move forward.
00:13:08
Speaker
And, you know, you take it in stride and it doesn't like, you know, Maggie said, you don't have to sit there and suffer through it forever.
00:13:14
Speaker
You will know that, yes, I need to move on, but at least figure out what you can learn from that experience and then hold that in and say, okay, here's what I see as my pluses and negatives of this.
00:13:26
Speaker
And as I move forward and make myself into what I'm going to be professionally,
00:13:30
Speaker
I had these things to look back on.
00:13:32
Speaker
Yes, Adonis, you're absolutely right.
00:13:34
Speaker
It's like, I've always said we are some collection of all of our past supervisors, good, bad, ugly, indifferent.
00:13:41
Speaker
Otherwise it's like the things we learn along the way is what sets us up for who we're going to be.
00:13:45
Speaker
Either we emulate the things we appreciate about past supervisors or we avoid the things that we didn't appreciate.
00:13:51
Speaker
You need to enjoy your job no matter what.
00:13:53
Speaker
And if you're, if you're not getting enjoyment out of your job, uh,
00:13:56
Speaker
and you're dreading going to work, and you're not feeling self-fulfilled or enjoying what you're doing, then you need to take stock and probably move on.
00:14:04
Speaker
I agree, especially before you let that negativity impact how your interactions with other people are.
00:14:10
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:14:11
Speaker
You know, sometimes we start to internalize that.
00:14:14
Speaker
And then we develop the reputation as being the difficult person to work with or the person who's always negative.
00:14:21
Speaker
So, yeah, definitely don't want to let that happen to you before you move on.
00:14:27
Speaker
Well, and then it starts to manifest in just not only behavior, but when you are interviewing jobs, it is now slanted with a negative tone usually.
00:14:37
Speaker
And, I mean, you can spot a mile away someone who's trying to run away from someone or someone who –
00:14:41
Speaker
That's like that's that slippery slope we were talking about.
00:14:44
Speaker
It's just like that negativity can spin out of control on something that otherwise who knows what what the reality is.
00:14:52
Speaker
Picking apart one other thing here, we talk about the grass is not always greener on the other side, but we've got a person who doesn't like their supervisor, but likes their departmental leadership.
00:15:03
Speaker
The alternate would be, I love my supervisor, but can't stand the departmental leadership.
00:15:08
Speaker
And I'm sure we've all known people have been in those situations where like, my gosh, this department's a mess, but my supervisor is fantastic because of whatever protection or whatever is going on.
00:15:19
Speaker
Like,
00:15:19
Speaker
Which would you all prefer?
00:15:20
Speaker
I don't know.
00:15:22
Speaker
Which situation is more ideal?
00:15:24
Speaker
That's a pick your poison type situation right there.
00:15:27
Speaker
Just like which which one do you want to deal with?
00:15:30
Speaker
I think it still kind of comes into play with some of the things that were said earlier is that eventually you're going to have to figure out how long you can deal with it because your supervisor may not be there forever.
00:15:41
Speaker
And once they're gone, the next person that comes in,
00:15:45
Speaker
may not have that same rapport, may not see things the way your supervisor saw it, and falls in line with the leadership that you're having problems with.
00:15:55
Speaker
And so now you're stuck because it's like, oh, I didn't really like the leadership.
00:15:59
Speaker
And now the person that's directly influenced in my job and my things is just like the leadership
How Do You Navigate Staying in a Position Against Departmental Policy?
00:16:05
Speaker
I don't like.
00:16:05
Speaker
And so you have to be able to know that.
00:16:08
Speaker
And that's probably one of the parts of, especially if you're dealing with entry-level staff or grad staff, is that
00:16:14
Speaker
Some of that greatness that you get is only there for a two, three year period.
00:16:19
Speaker
And then it moves on and it changes.
00:16:20
Speaker
And so they have to look at that, too, when they're coming up.
00:16:24
Speaker
OK, I may have this great boss, but I've only got him for a short period of time.
00:16:27
Speaker
But it can play out both ways that if too much of it will still cause a problem in the long run.
00:16:35
Speaker
If it's the supervisor or the department.
00:16:38
Speaker
Good point.
00:16:38
Speaker
Good point.
00:16:39
Speaker
I don't know.
00:16:40
Speaker
I think that one's tough.
00:16:41
Speaker
I think it depends on where you are in the organization.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yes.
00:16:44
Speaker
The further removed you are from the leadership that is a mess, it's probably easier to say they're longer term.
00:16:51
Speaker
But Adonis is right.
00:16:52
Speaker
As soon as that buffer that's making it, you know.
00:16:58
Speaker
a good experience for you leaves, then might be time to start thinking about leaving yourself as well.
00:17:04
Speaker
And my tough love moment, I think I kind of alluded to this, but I'll get back to it also is like, we also have to have reasonable expectations on what this relationship is.
00:17:15
Speaker
And I remember there was once a staff member who his employment ended rather quickly.
00:17:21
Speaker
And in the outgoing said, I was looking for a mentor.
00:17:27
Speaker
And so there was a cognitive dissidence about what the actual relationship is as a supervisor versus I was looking for someone to mentor.
00:17:33
Speaker
Like mentorship is great and that comes in the growth, but above and beyond, like from a very capitalistic lens, like this is a relationship about supervisor.
00:17:43
Speaker
My job is to get you very good at this job, you know, that we need to be realistic about what we expect and what we should be, I suppose.
00:17:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:52
Speaker
Well, I think sometimes you have to realize that the people that work for you ought to know more about their job than you do.
00:17:57
Speaker
And when you get to a certain level in the organization, you'll know more about what you're doing than your supervisor does.
00:18:02
Speaker
And so, yes, they can mentor you, but still, you bring the expertise of your specific position to the table, and they need to recognize that.
00:18:11
Speaker
And I think everybody needs to recognize that.
00:18:12
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I supervise painters, but I wouldn't be... Nobody in their right mind would give me a paintbrush and say, go at it.
00:18:18
Speaker
You know, I mean...
00:18:20
Speaker
It's just not the painters need to know more about what they do than I do.
00:18:23
Speaker
Just your air conditioning techs need to know more about.
00:18:25
Speaker
And you have to respect that.
00:18:27
Speaker
I mean, you know, the supervisors need to acknowledge that, that their employees know as much or more about their and should know more about their job, their specific duties of their job than they ever will.
00:18:39
Speaker
And they just need to assist them in doing that and empower them to do that.
00:18:43
Speaker
I trust you with a paintbrush.
00:18:46
Speaker
Maybe not an AC unit, but a paintbrush for sure.
00:18:51
Speaker
On to our next question.
00:18:53
Speaker
Our listener wrote, I'm in my second year of my first full-time job running a building.
00:18:58
Speaker
My department has a rule where all hall directors are moved to another building after their second year.
00:19:04
Speaker
I'm not excited about moving because I'm finally feeling like I know what I'm doing.
00:19:10
Speaker
I love my staff and I will have a lot of returning RAs next year if I were able to stay in this building.
00:19:16
Speaker
Do you have any advice on how I can convince my department to let me stay in my current building for another year?
00:19:23
Speaker
This, I imagine, is probably pretty timely at this time of year.
00:19:27
Speaker
Yeah, something like that.
00:19:30
Speaker
If it's trying to convince them to let you stay, it's being able to put something out there and show me what's the benefit of breaking from what appears to be a standard and a practice that is at this institution.
00:19:44
Speaker
Being able to show that, hey, here's what I've done.
00:19:47
Speaker
Here's what we've got planned.
00:19:49
Speaker
Here's the things that we even discussed about doing next year to, you know, come to the table with facts and things that you have that can say this is what's up.
00:19:58
Speaker
But also, as you come to the table to present and say, hey, this is why I hope I can stay in my building.
00:20:05
Speaker
You still have to prepare yourself to be told no and be able to deal with the fact that this may just be the way it is.
00:20:13
Speaker
And I was in a similar situation when I was a hall director that I was in my building for two years.
00:20:18
Speaker
And I actually went to my boss and was like, yo, you could, I know it may be a possibility that I'm a move, but you can move me anywhere, but this hall.
00:20:31
Speaker
And so I was cool with that.
00:20:33
Speaker
And so we went into this little thing.
00:20:36
Speaker
And, you know, I move into my new apartment because I got moved to one of the other halls.
00:20:40
Speaker
And I was like, oh, this is great.
00:20:42
Speaker
I moved in, got my stuff set up.
00:20:44
Speaker
And in less than a month, they called me to the office and I was like, OK, what's going on?
00:20:48
Speaker
And when I got hit with the soul, how's it going?
00:20:51
Speaker
I knew that this was not going to play out in my favor.
00:20:54
Speaker
And I was like, what you need?
00:20:55
Speaker
And they were like, we're going to move you to so-and-so, which was the hall that I said, don't move me to.
00:21:01
Speaker
And of course, I pouted about it.
00:21:03
Speaker
I was like, oh, man, it's messed up.
00:21:04
Speaker
I don't want to go.
00:21:05
Speaker
But I ended up going over to the hall.
00:21:08
Speaker
And the funny part is actually when we were doing RA training, my old staff from the other hall put it in their skit about me moving to the other hall.
00:21:17
Speaker
So they even rubbed it in my face.
00:21:19
Speaker
But the crazy thing about it is that it turned out to be a great experience because I ended up being able to, one, learn more about dealing with a different type of hall that I wasn't in the first time.
00:21:30
Speaker
Because at first I was in an all-male hall.
00:21:32
Speaker
Then I moved to a co-ed building.
00:21:34
Speaker
I got to influence more staff members and I got to influence more students.
00:21:38
Speaker
And it ended up working out more because that gave me more to build off of.
00:21:42
Speaker
It took me out my comfort
The Benefits of Role Changes and Professionalism
00:21:44
Speaker
zone.
00:21:44
Speaker
So if they don't allow you to stay in that same building, think about what you're going to gain by going somewhere else or look to get put in a building that's going to give you a better and stronger experience.
00:21:55
Speaker
But don't automatically cancel it out because if it's a practice, they may not be willing to step away from that practice.
00:22:02
Speaker
I definitely agree with that.
00:22:04
Speaker
I think you need to be positive when you go in.
00:22:06
Speaker
And if you're talking with a supervisor, say, you know, I know the policy and I respect the policy because I know you want to give me a new experience and help me grow and stuff like that.
00:22:14
Speaker
But here's the reason I'd like to stay is because I've started these programs and I really feel like if I had another year, I'd be able to see them to fruition and get a little bit more out of that.
00:22:23
Speaker
And since I know you want me to have a new experience and challenge me in that regards, but as an option, how about putting me on this university committee?
00:22:31
Speaker
How about letting me, you know, put some alternatives out there that will demonstrate that you are in line or.
00:22:39
Speaker
in agreement with the notion of how they feel like you'll get additional growth by moving you.
00:22:44
Speaker
You stay, you want to finish your program, and I volunteer to be on a different committee that'll give you a new, this new experience would offset the fact that I'd moved to a different hall, but go in with an alternative and positive, you know, try to put it in a positive lane of why you would like to stay in that hall.
00:23:01
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with all of that.
00:23:03
Speaker
I would also maybe consider it a compliment because, you
00:23:06
Speaker
If you have been in a place for a couple of years and you're doing a good job, maybe they feel like you're not being challenged.
00:23:14
Speaker
Maybe they need your experience and your skillset in a different building where they need a stronger staff member.
00:23:21
Speaker
I would also say being a hall director in one building is pretty much the same as being a hall director in another building.
00:23:28
Speaker
So I feel like, yes, this person's probably comfortable where they're at.
00:23:33
Speaker
They know their community.
00:23:34
Speaker
They know their staff.
00:23:36
Speaker
But when they say, I finally feel like I've gotten like a handle on the job, you're still gonna have the handle on the job in a different building.
00:23:43
Speaker
It's just gonna be a different apartment.
00:23:45
Speaker
The storage closets are in a different location though.
00:23:48
Speaker
Well, you know, and there are things that you have to learn, the nuances, you know what I mean?
00:23:52
Speaker
But I think everything is an opportunity.
00:23:55
Speaker
And I think that if you cannot control this decision, you have to control your reaction to it.
00:24:01
Speaker
And I think, you know, like both of these gentlemen have said, seeing it as an opportunity, finding the positive in it.
00:24:07
Speaker
Also recognizing that your reaction to this decision is going to speak volumes about who you are as a professional, right?
00:24:17
Speaker
We all are sometimes told we have to do things we don't want to do.
00:24:22
Speaker
And if we are going to pout about it and we're going to make it obvious that we're really unhappy with the decision, that's going to be remembered.
00:24:30
Speaker
And on the flip side of that, if we are willing to do the things, even though we've asked, hey, can I maybe not do that?
00:24:37
Speaker
That's also going to be remembered.
00:24:39
Speaker
And so, you know, I feel like this is an opportunity for this person, one, to improve their skill set and increase their skill set, but also to show who they are as a professional, because the fact of the matter is the further up you go,
00:24:52
Speaker
you are going to be given people to supervise.
00:24:55
Speaker
You're going to be given areas to manage.
00:24:57
Speaker
You're going to be given work to do that you're probably not going to want to do.
00:25:01
Speaker
And you're not going to have the opportunity to say, no, thanks.
00:25:04
Speaker
I would like to opt out of that.
00:25:06
Speaker
Right?
00:25:06
Speaker
So I think this is just a development of that skillset.
00:25:10
Speaker
Yes, advocate for what you want.
00:25:12
Speaker
But if you are told no, how to handle that disappointment with grace and with character and with integrity and positivity.
00:25:21
Speaker
And that,
00:25:22
Speaker
could be even more valuable to you than anything you would gain by remaining in the building that you've been in for the last two years.
00:25:31
Speaker
And something that Maggie said that really stepped out is that was one thing that my boss came back and said.
00:25:37
Speaker
He was like, one of the reasons we need to move you is because when we brought you in, it was to turn a building around.
00:25:44
Speaker
We need that again for this.
00:25:46
Speaker
And it stood out.
00:25:47
Speaker
That was one of those things that was kind of like she said, that was that boat of confidence.
00:25:51
Speaker
that they believed in what I could do.
00:25:53
Speaker
Because a lot of times, especially in your graduate career, you're not thinking that they're paying that much attention.
00:25:58
Speaker
But those supervisors also are going to be the people that give those recommendations when you're starting to move forward.
00:26:05
Speaker
Because student affairs in itself is a small world.
00:26:09
Speaker
But when you talk about the housing field, oh, it gets really small.
00:26:13
Speaker
Like you can walk in a room and can't throw a rock without hitting somebody that knows at least three other people in that room.
00:26:19
Speaker
from either working with them, supervising them or, or seeing them at a conference or something.
00:26:23
Speaker
And so, you know, getting that chance to have those conversations and to get those different experiences, because it's a lot of times moving up that you will definitely get violent told that you're going to do this.
00:26:38
Speaker
And it's just, that's just kind of the way to cook cookie crumbles.
00:26:41
Speaker
But,
00:26:42
Speaker
Definitely was one of those things that as a young professional didn't see it until after, like Maggie said, they actually opened my eyes to say, hey, this is one of the reasons why we're moving is so that you can do one of those things into a new place.
00:26:57
Speaker
And it was like after that, it was it was fun.
00:27:00
Speaker
I will actually say I had a great time with that staff.
00:27:02
Speaker
I can't tell the old staff that because they was like, no, you can't go over there.
00:27:06
Speaker
You can't do this.
00:27:06
Speaker
And they booed me even when we got hit.
00:27:09
Speaker
But we just had that type of relationship in the department.
00:27:12
Speaker
But definitely look at the positives of it because it's how it works as you move forward.
00:27:20
Speaker
Maggie, I have to challenge something you said because you first started by saying running one building is just like running another building.
00:27:27
Speaker
And I think generally then later on you said, but you're getting more skills by moving.
00:27:32
Speaker
Like what skills are you getting by doing the same job just in a different building?
00:27:39
Speaker
I think the skills that they would be getting in this situation is supervising people they didn't hire first and foremost.
00:27:47
Speaker
There is a difference in supervising a staff you inherit and supervising people that you've chosen.
00:27:55
Speaker
So I think that
00:27:56
Speaker
That's kind of the first thing that comes to mind is understanding that skill set.
00:28:01
Speaker
I think that also buildings have very different nuances.
00:28:05
Speaker
So you may have worked in one building that was very low conduct and therefore you didn't have to do a lot of conduct and maybe you're being moved to a higher conduct building.
00:28:15
Speaker
So you're going to get to practice that skill set.
00:28:17
Speaker
Or maybe you worked in a building that was newer and didn't have a lot of maintenance issues.
00:28:21
Speaker
And now you're going to be moved to a building that's older that has a lot of maintenance issues.
00:28:25
Speaker
And there's a skill set involved with managing the process of we've got rooms that have flooded and we're having to relocate students or, you know, things like that.
00:28:35
Speaker
So I think, yes, the same general skill set for being a hall director is kind of the same, right?
00:28:42
Speaker
Particularly once you learn the department's processes and procedures and, you
00:28:47
Speaker
Here are the steps we take to do, you know, this, that, and the other.
00:28:51
Speaker
Once you learn that, yes, it's kind of the same no matter where you work, but each different community, each different location, each different group of people you supervise are going to increase your skill sets in some ways.
00:29:07
Speaker
So like you're applying your skill sets in a broader context.
00:29:10
Speaker
Yes, or in a different context.
00:29:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:13
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:29:14
Speaker
Which makes you more versatile for things that come along later.
00:29:17
Speaker
Gotcha.
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah, it absolutely can.
00:29:20
Speaker
It absolutely can.
00:29:21
Speaker
I mean, I was a hall director at A&M for six years, and I love that.
00:29:26
Speaker
I was never moved, and I really appreciated that, particularly at the point that I had two children living in with me, because that would have been...
00:29:34
Speaker
just really difficult to do to move with them.
00:29:37
Speaker
But I mean, yeah, I wouldn't have minded.
00:29:40
Speaker
I got to know my building and my community really well.
00:29:43
Speaker
And then whenever I moved out of that role and was still working for our department, I had to get familiar with
00:29:49
Speaker
the different styles of buildings that we have across our department to be able, you know, when I was doing risk management and a staff would come to me and say, where in our building should we go if there's a tornado warning?
00:30:00
Speaker
Well, I had to learn their building, right?
00:30:02
Speaker
Like I could have easily told you about what to do in the building I'd supervised for six years.
00:30:07
Speaker
So even then I had to, you know, learn new things about the other styles of building around our campus.
00:30:13
Speaker
So.
00:30:14
Speaker
You know, I think there's always opportunities to grow skills, but those are some specifics that kind of come to mind in this situation.
00:30:21
Speaker
Well, and I love kind of unrelated, but I love that about learning other buildings.
00:30:26
Speaker
So here's a practical takeaway unrelated to the question is like next time you're on call.
00:30:31
Speaker
And you're in a random building, like clock an extra five minutes and just like start peeking around in closets and stuff to familiarize with the building.
00:30:38
Speaker
That's totally unlike your own.
00:30:39
Speaker
Cause you never know when you might need to know where the boiler is or how to get access to X, Y, Z panel or whatever.
00:30:47
Speaker
Or the water shutoff valve when a sprinkler head is gushing gallons of water out on movement day.
00:30:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:54
Speaker
I've been in that exact moment.
00:30:58
Speaker
Maggie, kind of picking back on what you said, it's like in your multiple year stint that I've always thought that like, you know, your first year, you're like learning what to do.
00:31:07
Speaker
Your second year, you're kind of like mastering those application of those skills.
00:31:11
Speaker
And that third year is kind of a gravy year.
00:31:14
Speaker
It's like I can run my building without thinking about it.
00:31:17
Speaker
So that frees up more time to do committee work, other projects, miscellaneous things.
00:31:25
Speaker
And maybe I'm the only person in the field or in the room is like, I am against the policy of transitioning people like forced, like apparently is described here, because from a business standpoint, I feel like it disrupts continuity because you do have to relearn buildings.
00:31:43
Speaker
And I know when I was in ResLife, it seemed like every three years we had a large turnover.
00:31:49
Speaker
And if everyone's learning new buildings all at once, it's like, oh, we're taking a step back.
00:31:54
Speaker
So yeah.
00:31:55
Speaker
I don't know.
00:31:55
Speaker
Is there something out here for the leadership that might be listening about whether this is a good practice or how do we do, how do we go about?
00:32:05
Speaker
I don't know.
00:32:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:07
Speaker
I'll tell you too, as someone who just kind of works with the living staff sort of, you know, on a tertiary basis, by the time I figure out and can remember the hall director in this building, I
00:32:20
Speaker
either they've graduated or they've been moved to another building and then I have to relearn it.
00:32:24
Speaker
And I'm at the point now where I don't even try to learn it.
00:32:26
Speaker
I just keep a little list right above my computer in my office so I can just look up there because it is, it does get confusing and it's hard to remember who supervises who and who reports to who and, you know, all of that.
00:32:39
Speaker
So I, I kind of agree with you that I think if there's a good reason or someone wants a different experience and asked to move, then sure.
00:32:47
Speaker
Otherwise let just leave people be.
00:32:50
Speaker
Yeah, you don't need to fix something that's not broken.
00:32:54
Speaker
And I think a general guideline is probably okay and appropriate, but it should never be hard and fast and an immutable thing.
00:33:03
Speaker
It should be something that is situational enough that you can make adjustments in it.
00:33:08
Speaker
I think the logic is fine, and you can kind of follow that as a general principle.
00:33:12
Speaker
But I think you have to take the reality of the circumstances into account before any final decisions are made.
00:33:19
Speaker
So then I think what I'm reading in the room, the recommendation is that maybe that supervisors or departments like initiate a conversation about a possibility.
How to Stay Informed and the Importance of Being in the Loop
00:33:27
Speaker
Is this something you're interested in?
00:33:29
Speaker
Here's potential benefits.
00:33:31
Speaker
What are your thoughts?
00:33:32
Speaker
It needs to be a conversation and some sort of a mutually agreed upon decision.
00:33:37
Speaker
And something that's best for the department.
00:33:39
Speaker
You know, it's one of those things like for when we did it, once I got to the role of being able to help make some of those decisions, it was this is we want you in these buildings.
00:33:49
Speaker
And as time goes on and we're seeing the changes in buildings, it needs to fit the best need of the department and the students that we're serving.
00:33:59
Speaker
We don't just need to be throwing you into another spot just because like, okay, you've been here one year here, Nick.
00:34:03
Speaker
Cause again, if you're just, you're going to get the gist of the job, but sometimes moving from one year to the next year, to the next year, it will stunt your growth because you're like, okay,
00:34:15
Speaker
I learned a little bit, but now I've got to take the time I could have been using to enhance those skills and improve them.
00:34:21
Speaker
I've got to use some of that time to learn this brand new building.
00:34:24
Speaker
And then when you move me again, I'm going to spend another bit of time learning that new building.
00:34:29
Speaker
So hopefully by giving them a chance to have some continuity and to be able to grow and say, OK, now you've done this for a while, you got a hang of it.
00:34:37
Speaker
Let's try and see what you could do in the next one, because.
00:34:40
Speaker
My goal when I was in that position was to help make more well-rounded professionals moving forward so that when they leave, they're able to say, okay, I've got this experience and this experience.
00:34:51
Speaker
I've learned how to deal with first-year students.
00:34:54
Speaker
Now I know how to deal with upperclassmen.
00:34:56
Speaker
I'm ready to move on and do this next thing.
00:34:59
Speaker
So when I apply for that next job, it makes it a little bit easier for that next hiring manager to say, oh, we can put them either here or here over.
00:35:08
Speaker
Because sometimes if you just stick in the same spot,
00:35:10
Speaker
you may apply for a school that is not looking for that type of one spot that you stuck yourself in.
00:35:16
Speaker
And so it just, it just depends, but it does, you know, like you said, having that conversation, you know, with the staff and as a department to be able to say, this is where we want to go.
00:35:26
Speaker
I think we'll make those moves a little bit easier and more.
00:35:31
Speaker
I don't want to really want to say fair because sometimes it just say fair, but makes it a little more conducive to everybody that's going to be involved in that process.
00:35:39
Speaker
Yeah, and you do it with a good attitude, and then on your reference check, they'll be like, your boss will say something like, yeah, they weren't overly excited about it, but they took it in stride, had a good attitude, and really made a positive impact and did some good work.
00:35:53
Speaker
And there you go.
00:35:54
Speaker
There's your lipstick on the pig for future growth.
00:36:00
Speaker
Here's our third question, which doesn't actually contain a question mark, but is shortened to the point, which I can personally appreciate.
00:36:07
Speaker
They wrote,
00:36:09
Speaker
Everyone seems to know more than me about what is going on in other departments and around campus and even in my own department.
00:36:18
Speaker
I'm always out of the loop.
00:36:20
Speaker
What say we to this person?
00:36:22
Speaker
Get in the loop.
00:36:25
Speaker
Short and sweet.
00:36:28
Speaker
So for practical tangible advice, how do we get in the loop?
00:36:34
Speaker
I mean, is one, why are you out of?
00:36:36
Speaker
Is it one of those things because you're not in the meetings?
00:36:39
Speaker
Is it because people are avoiding telling you things?
00:36:43
Speaker
You need to figure out why you're not in the loop because working in res life is hard not to know what's going on, especially if it's something that's concerning you, your staff, or your building.
00:36:54
Speaker
Now, if it's some things that are, I would tend to say, if it's things that are above, as people like to say, above your pay grade and out of your realm of influence,
00:37:03
Speaker
there may be a reason why you're out.
00:37:05
Speaker
And I used to, that was one of the hard conversations to have with entry level staff.
00:37:09
Speaker
And even sometimes mid level of saying, there are some things you are just shielded from before, because we need to figure it out before we can tell you, because we don't want to cause panic.
00:37:20
Speaker
We don't want to do this.
00:37:21
Speaker
We don't want to do that.
00:37:22
Speaker
But then again, also, how is it that, is it you're out the loop because people have been nosy?
00:37:27
Speaker
Are you out the loop because you are aloof to what's going on?
00:37:30
Speaker
It's,
00:37:31
Speaker
That's the first step is figuring out why you're out that loop.
00:37:34
Speaker
Well, and also, are you out of the loop on like legitimate business or are you out of the loop on like the gossip mill and the drama that you want to hear about?
00:37:44
Speaker
I think that's an important distinction, too, which is not clear.
00:37:47
Speaker
I have so many questions.
00:37:49
Speaker
I need more context, right?
00:37:50
Speaker
I want to know what this person's position is.
00:37:53
Speaker
I want to know, are they like, who is their supervisor?
00:37:56
Speaker
What meetings are they in?
00:37:58
Speaker
Because yeah, I agree with what Adonis says.
00:38:01
Speaker
If you are entry level, then there may be a very good reason that you're out of the loop.
00:38:08
Speaker
I think it depends on how communication flows in your department.
00:38:12
Speaker
Like, you know,
00:38:14
Speaker
Just using A&M as an example, we're a big department.
00:38:17
Speaker
So we have a senior leadership meeting and then each person in that is responsible for taking information back to their teams.
00:38:26
Speaker
So maybe there's some sort of weird lack of flow of information because your supervisor is choosing to keep things not shared.
00:38:37
Speaker
I don't know.
00:38:38
Speaker
I feel like too, are you paying attention in meetings?
00:38:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:43
Speaker
I think we have all sat through meetings where you see people clearly not paying attention because they are on their laptops, on their phones, disengaged.
00:38:53
Speaker
So maybe you're just missing the good information because you're trying to multitask and you're really bad at it.
00:38:59
Speaker
Right.
00:39:00
Speaker
So, yeah, I don't know.
00:39:01
Speaker
This is hard to address without having a little more context.
00:39:05
Speaker
And as far as like being in the loop of what's happening in other departments or knowing as much as other people in other departments, you cannot compare.
00:39:13
Speaker
Residence Live, I will tell you guys since COVID, like I've always known that Residence Live was different.
00:39:19
Speaker
But since COVID, I have realized like you residents live compared to other departments is not even apples to oranges.
00:39:27
Speaker
It is like pineapples to like, I don't need stalks of wheat.
00:39:32
Speaker
It's not, we're not, right?
00:39:35
Speaker
So it could be that people in other departments are more in the know because their departments are smaller.
00:39:41
Speaker
Their departments are less,
00:39:43
Speaker
Political, you know, I don't know.
00:39:46
Speaker
This one's difficult, but I agree.
00:39:49
Speaker
Probably find out why you're out of the loop and then fix whatever is causing you to be out of the loop.
00:39:56
Speaker
Maybe you're known as the department gossip, so people don't tell you things because they don't want it spread.
00:40:02
Speaker
Well, I do think that being in the loop is a personal challenge.
00:40:08
Speaker
I think that's a personal responsibility.
00:40:12
Speaker
You need to be in the loop and you need to know what's going on.
00:40:15
Speaker
And if you don't, I think that's more of a you question than it is everybody else's problem.
00:40:21
Speaker
I think that's what, to me, you need to figure out.
00:40:25
Speaker
And sometimes, depending on what it is, you may not want to be, because once you get in that loop,
00:40:31
Speaker
You are now, you know, I posted this on like a little bitty thing I did on Facebook once.
00:40:35
Speaker
And I was just like, look, sometimes it's best not to know everything and be all up in it because now you have inherited what comes with that drama.
00:40:45
Speaker
So if it's things that are like everybody's upset over here, blah, blah, blah.
00:40:49
Speaker
And you start getting in the loop and you're putting out, you know, you're putting your little two cents in on it.
00:40:56
Speaker
you are now a part of it and people will start coming to you, bringing them questions to you, bringing the drama to you.
00:41:02
Speaker
Sometimes it's like, okay, I heard.
00:41:04
Speaker
All right, that's cool.
00:41:05
Speaker
If it's meant for me to know more, you will bring more to me.
00:41:09
Speaker
If not,
00:41:10
Speaker
I'm good.
00:41:10
Speaker
I agree with you, Adonis.
00:41:11
Speaker
I think there's a difference between that.
00:41:13
Speaker
There's that old Chinese proverb that says a man who agrees to be a go-between will wear out a thousand sandals.
00:41:18
Speaker
Well, I don't think you want to be wearing out your sandals in that position like that you've talked about where you're constantly in that.
00:41:24
Speaker
But you do need to know what's going on.
00:41:26
Speaker
I mean, if you miss a meeting, how did everybody else know about the meeting?
00:41:30
Speaker
I didn't.
00:41:30
Speaker
I mean, that's your problem.
00:41:31
Speaker
I mean, everybody else has seemed to get the word.
00:41:35
Speaker
then you probably got it and missed it or missed a cue or something like that.
00:41:38
Speaker
So I think there's kind of a fine line between those two, but you don't want to certainly become the go-between, but you do need to be able to pick up on, you know, the clues that are out there and have some knowledge and be at least as knowledgeable as your colleagues about what's going on in the department and at the university.
00:42:00
Speaker
Being in the loop.
00:42:01
Speaker
is how you get an inbox of 62,000 emails.
00:42:03
Speaker
So be careful what you wish for.
00:42:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's a curse.
00:42:09
Speaker
I know in grad schools and young groups, we preach, don't have silos.
00:42:14
Speaker
It's exhausting not having any silos.
00:42:17
Speaker
The amount of information and bandwidth,
00:42:20
Speaker
that comes in, it's so much input that like half of it, it's like, I don't care.
00:42:25
Speaker
Like it just doesn't impact me or barely, or if it does, I can adapt on the fly.
00:42:31
Speaker
Like,
00:42:32
Speaker
Having all the information and being completely in the loop is not as valuable as people think.
00:42:38
Speaker
And so I think the thing I would encourage is like, how are you reacting when you feel caught off guard?
00:42:45
Speaker
Like you feel like I should have known that, but don't.
00:42:47
Speaker
Are you like, oh my gosh, how do I not know that?
00:42:50
Speaker
And outing yourself is like being out of the loop.
00:42:52
Speaker
Or you're like, oh, yeah, yeah.
00:42:54
Speaker
And rolling, like pretending like you knew it to begin with, given what it is, of course, but you know, you're kind of probably creating a self-fulfilling prophecy where if I don't know what's going on, I look like an idiot.
00:43:05
Speaker
But then if you like proclaim like, how am I an idiot?
00:43:08
Speaker
Then guess what?
00:43:09
Speaker
People are seeing that, not you just being like, possibly you didn't read the university newsletter or whatever.
00:43:17
Speaker
And then how are you following up to see, okay, I was out the loop on this.
00:43:21
Speaker
What steps did you take to make sure that you got that information?
00:43:24
Speaker
Because like Ken said, you need to be in there on the things that are important.
00:43:30
Speaker
If it's departmental meetings, departmental changes and things like that, what are you doing?
00:43:35
Speaker
Okay, I missed it.
00:43:36
Speaker
What do I do now?
00:43:38
Speaker
Because if you don't catch up and get in the loop, if you spend more time worrying about the fact that you were out in the first place, guess what?
00:43:43
Speaker
You're probably going to be out the loop on the next thing because something else is passing you by.
00:43:47
Speaker
Why you're worried about the one that you just missed.
00:43:49
Speaker
So it's like, OK, I missed it.
00:43:51
Speaker
Let me hurry up and get caught back up, get on my P's and Q's and then keep it moving.
00:43:55
Speaker
Because at that time when you catch up, then you'll know, is this something I need to be carrying on and keeping up with?
00:44:01
Speaker
Or, OK, cool.
00:44:02
Speaker
That was some other stuff.
00:44:04
Speaker
I can move on to my next task or, yep, I need to get this, get to work on it and make that next move now.
00:44:09
Speaker
Going back to the like, what is the information?
00:44:12
Speaker
And I think this is really important that is really hard to do because it's like if information is power, then like people community, like sharing information demonstrates some level of power, whether that's fair, accurate or not.
00:44:25
Speaker
And if we're talking about kind of gossipy stuff or like you got an inside track on something the boss is doing, don't be sharing that because guess what?
00:44:34
Speaker
If that gets out
00:44:35
Speaker
you ain't going to be in the loop much longer on that kind of like sense of information.
00:44:39
Speaker
Or if it's stuff like so-and-so in another department is leaving the university, oh, wow, why don't we all think about it?
00:44:46
Speaker
Why?
00:44:46
Speaker
Like, well, we probably shouldn't be talking about that.
00:44:49
Speaker
Yeah, I guess it's cool to know, but are you really out of the loop?
00:44:53
Speaker
Or, you know, it's like –
00:44:56
Speaker
If you ever get a piece of information that you're like, I want to show everyone how in the loop I am and how like people trust me, don't do it because it ain't going to stick around long.
00:45:07
Speaker
I think if part of being in the loop for this person is.
00:45:12
Speaker
means they feel like they need to be part of a decision-making process and they're not, there might be a reason why they're not, right?
00:45:20
Speaker
I think we can all think of people who, when a new idea is brought to the table or a challenging problem is brought to the table that needs to be solved, if there's somebody who's not a productive part of that conversation, either because they have a bad attitude, they...
00:45:38
Speaker
constantly shoot down new ideas, they go into panic mode and can't focus on coming to a resolution, then sure, that person probably is going to be out of that decision-making loop because their presence is not valuable.
00:45:53
Speaker
And in fact, can often slow down and hinder the progress that needs to be made.
00:45:57
Speaker
I think that could be another part of it.
00:45:59
Speaker
If being out of the loop means you feel like decisions are being made that you don't have input in, or you're not even aware the discussions are taking place and you think that you should be, either you probably have an over-elevated sense of your place in your department and you shouldn't be part of those decisions, or you potentially are being left out of them for a reason.
Decision-Making, Positivity, and Handling Compromises
00:46:21
Speaker
And I think that's something else that the person needs to really kind of take a good introspective look at.
00:46:27
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:46:28
Speaker
I'd also look like, you know, as people look to advance or potentially move on to other positions that is there a valuable reason as I think this has been shared a little bit already today, but like I've been in situations where like one director in the division is very literal about when they hear from the VP in their director's meeting or whatever,
00:46:46
Speaker
this isn't public information, don't share it with anyone.
00:46:49
Speaker
Well, you got 30 directors, half of them are probably going to go tell their staff to be like, don't tell anyone, this is a secret.
00:46:55
Speaker
And we know how that translates.
00:46:57
Speaker
But if you have a very literal director who respects that rule, like you're not going to hear about it, but you shouldn't.
00:47:04
Speaker
And so that creates that discontinuity, but there's a value in being like the keeper secret of that.
00:47:10
Speaker
It was like, if your director is doing that or your supervisor is doing that, like recognize the
00:47:15
Speaker
The integrity it takes to play that role and to have the respect of and the confidence of their supervisor that they're fully trustworthy to not share something that is said not to share.
00:47:27
Speaker
I guess in the question, again, a practical piece of advice is as someone who has supervised multiple units or functional areas, if you had a meeting with all your direct reports, knowing that they all had meetings with their direct reports and so on, was there a functional expectation that after this meeting, you now go meet with your people within four hours so the information kind of cascades down relatively similarly?
00:47:50
Speaker
That would happen occasionally, but if I did that, I always had a prepared talking points that I would give to them that I said, these are the points you need to cover when you go back and talk with your staff.
00:48:02
Speaker
So I want it to be done personally, but don't miss any of these points.
00:48:06
Speaker
And so I'd have those talking points written out to give to the staff because if it was important enough to do that, I felt like I wanted to make sure they got it right and that it transmitted correctly.
00:48:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:20
Speaker
I think it's a great idea.
00:48:22
Speaker
Our final question of the day is this.
00:48:24
Speaker
My staff complain about a lot of things.
00:48:27
Speaker
So I saw something I might be able to do to advocate on their behalf.
00:48:32
Speaker
I worked really hard and spent a lot of time I don't have to propose something to my departmental leadership.
00:48:38
Speaker
While the end result wasn't all the way to what my staff wanted, I was pretty proud I was able to get partway there and meet somewhere in the middle.
00:48:48
Speaker
But guess what?
00:48:50
Speaker
My staff are complaining that it wasn't enough.
00:48:53
Speaker
It feels like I just can't win.
00:48:55
Speaker
Gosh, anyone been in that situation before?
00:48:57
Speaker
Yep.
00:48:59
Speaker
Been there.
00:49:01
Speaker
Is this everyone's middle management?
00:49:04
Speaker
Definitely been down that road.
00:49:06
Speaker
Well, yeah, you know, they either feel like you must not have heard them correctly or you didn't advocate strong enough or you weren't listening or something.
00:49:12
Speaker
I mean, there's always that disadvantage out there.
00:49:15
Speaker
They're the, you know, kind of the no win situation if you don't come away with a total victory, even if you get halfway there.
00:49:21
Speaker
So that's just part of it.
00:49:23
Speaker
I think, you know, going into it, like you say, especially when it's those no win situations that they're not going to be overly happy with it.
00:49:30
Speaker
It's having that discussion with them of saying, OK, hey, here's what was put on the table.
00:49:36
Speaker
here's a compromise we made and getting them to understand that you have to take the small victories in order to win long-term.
00:49:45
Speaker
Because if, if we go in there and we totally get shot down and everything, okay, yeah, we, we all hurt together.
00:49:51
Speaker
But if we go in and one, you need to be happy enough to know that you even had a supervisor that was willing to put their neck out on the line.
00:49:59
Speaker
Because if you're speaking up for your staff, that's you that's on the line for, you're going to be the first chop.
00:50:05
Speaker
that they make if everybody gets ticked off about what just came to the table.
00:50:09
Speaker
And so having that conversation and saying, yo, I went up to bat for, you know, for us, this is what we got.
00:50:14
Speaker
Boom, boom, boom.
00:50:16
Speaker
When we get ready for the next one, let's move forward.
00:50:18
Speaker
Because also in that, in not getting the total victory,
00:50:23
Speaker
one thing that you can look at is asking those that get to make those decisions, hey, what are some of the things that could have helped in making this move further along?
00:50:32
Speaker
And, you know, learning that because when you come back again for your next time to advocate, you know what to look out for in this and that.
00:50:38
Speaker
And they need to know that there is always that opportunity that you may not get anything at all and to be able to appreciate what's coming forth.
00:50:48
Speaker
And
00:50:48
Speaker
Unfortunately, some of that may be generational type things of where is the instant gratification and we want it all now, right here, right now.
00:50:57
Speaker
But they have to understand that it took courage to step up to the plate.
00:51:02
Speaker
And at this point, here's what we got.
00:51:04
Speaker
And let's not waste all the ammunition on a small battle when there's going to be something bigger that we may need to fight for later.
00:51:11
Speaker
That's a great perspective, particularly when you're younger.
00:51:13
Speaker
It's hard to see.
00:51:14
Speaker
I'll give you a quick example.
00:51:16
Speaker
I was at Iowa State and I was asked to write up a proposal.
00:51:18
Speaker
We were making, at that time, of course, this dates me, we were making transition from house mothers and live-in type full-time hall directors or the house mother concept to full-time professionals rather than that model.
00:51:30
Speaker
I'd written it all up and I'd done a lot of work.
00:51:32
Speaker
It was a great proposal.
00:51:33
Speaker
I thought, okay.
00:51:34
Speaker
Well, you know, it didn't seem to go anywhere.
00:51:36
Speaker
And I'd left Iowa State.
00:51:38
Speaker
I went into the service for a short stint.
00:51:40
Speaker
I was at South Florida for two years and I was at Tennessee.
00:51:43
Speaker
And then I get a letter from Iowa State, my supervisor there, and they said, Ken, we just wanted you to know your proposal has been fully implemented.
00:51:49
Speaker
And I thought, what?
00:51:50
Speaker
I mean, it was like...
00:51:52
Speaker
But the perspective was, I mean, there were people involved.
00:51:55
Speaker
There was feelings involved.
00:51:56
Speaker
There's personnel issues.
00:51:57
Speaker
You know, I thought, you know, Harry, let's do this tomorrow.
00:52:01
Speaker
You know, like it's like the one petition that was sent to the government about during the Vietnam War.
00:52:05
Speaker
They say, we want you to be out of Vietnam by Friday.
00:52:08
Speaker
Well, it took us five years to get there.
00:52:10
Speaker
You know, we weren't going to be out of Vietnam by Friday.
00:52:12
Speaker
And my proposal wasn't going to be implemented while I was there.
00:52:15
Speaker
It just, it just some, but it was fully.
00:52:18
Speaker
And I really appreciated that letter I got from Chuck Fredericks and said,
00:52:22
Speaker
I just wanted you to know I remember where the proposal came from, and it's now been fully implemented.
00:52:27
Speaker
But, you know, I just was shocked at the time, but it made me feel really good that, you know, sometimes things you just have to work through the system, and it takes time.
Implementing Change in Educational Institutions
00:52:37
Speaker
Regardless of what we say about educational institutions, sometimes they're very hard to change.
00:52:42
Speaker
Like a large ship at sea, you're not going to turn it around on a dime.
00:52:46
Speaker
That's a perfect example, but also from like scalability that I think is hard to understand until you've been in it a little while.
00:52:52
Speaker
It's like, like you said, you can't turn the ship on the dime, but we scale up because things that are sustainable kind of organically grow.
00:53:01
Speaker
Whereas if you make like a big change real fast, there's a lot of growing pains that come with it.
00:53:07
Speaker
And then it's like, this was a disaster or it was so challenging that it makes a institution less likely to want to like make a big change in the future because habits are being built based on experience.
00:53:19
Speaker
And so there's a very powerful developmental lesson.
00:53:23
Speaker
It's like, yeah, we got halfway there.
00:53:24
Speaker
Guess what?
00:53:25
Speaker
Next year, we're going to try and get three quarters of the way there.
00:53:28
Speaker
And five, six years from now after it.
00:53:31
Speaker
We'll get a letter saying, hey, good work six years ago.
00:53:34
Speaker
We didn't forget about you.
00:53:37
Speaker
But I think there's also a good point of like people who are at school or wait a long time for things.
00:53:41
Speaker
It's like be prepared for when it does happen because institutions are very big and very slow.
00:53:49
Speaker
But when something rolls out, it rolls out fast and hard and typically on a Friday.
00:53:55
Speaker
And so, you know, just be ready.
00:53:58
Speaker
And if it doesn't feel like any, any is going where it very well could.
00:54:02
Speaker
And when you want to, when it does, you may just be like, all right, it's about time, but now I've got 48 hours to get it in action.
00:54:10
Speaker
So JC, the person's question was basically my staff complains.
00:54:13
Speaker
I tried to do this great thing for them.
00:54:15
Speaker
It didn't quite go the way they wanted.
00:54:17
Speaker
And now they're saying it's not enough and still complaining.
00:54:20
Speaker
That's the gist.
00:54:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:21
Speaker
Yeah, basically no win situations really is what I'm taking from it.
00:54:24
Speaker
So I don't know.
00:54:26
Speaker
I feel like I've been in this person's place where I sometimes you're going to supervise people who just don't want to be where they are.
00:54:38
Speaker
And I would wonder if that's kind of what some of what this this person almost said this caller, this person is experiencing.
00:54:45
Speaker
So I feel like, you know, when you can't get a win or when your staff feels like,
00:54:50
Speaker
you can't get a win or whenever you have complainers who aren't happy with anything that you try to do to make their jobs better.
00:54:58
Speaker
I think that that means it's time to maybe have some very hard and pointed conversations with the people who work for you.
00:55:05
Speaker
I can think about a couple of situations where I have had to remind my staff, look, misery is optional and you seem pretty miserable working here.
00:55:17
Speaker
And I've done these things to try to make...
00:55:21
Speaker
your job easier, make your experience more pleasant.
00:55:24
Speaker
But at the end of the day, sometimes you just have to have those hard conversations and encourage people to move on, particularly if their bad attitudes and their negativity are starting to make you as the supervisor feel discouraged or like you don't like working there anymore.
00:55:43
Speaker
I think it's one thing if it's kind of like a transient staff, like your RAs, where maybe you're going to have half of them turn over and then you've got
00:55:51
Speaker
you know, new people coming in who can maybe bring some positivity.
00:55:54
Speaker
But if it's, if you're supervising like mid-level people and they have bad attitudes and are constantly complaining and are never happy with
00:56:04
Speaker
any of the progress that you feel like you're making, then I think you really, one, I think you need to ask yourself, is this really my whole team?
00:56:11
Speaker
Or is this just a couple of loud voices on my team who seem to be representing everybody?
00:56:18
Speaker
And if it's just a few people, then I think you may just need to sit down and have some very pointed conversations with them about what their attitude is doing to their experience and to the experience of the rest of the team.
00:56:31
Speaker
I think, too, sometimes one of the things that can really help build a team is do something outside the realm.
00:56:37
Speaker
I remember one time I got a whole group together and we challenged the police department to a softball game.
00:56:43
Speaker
And I said, whoever can come?
00:56:45
Speaker
Oh, and we had so much fun.
00:56:48
Speaker
One time I got everybody together and got Pat Head Summit to come in.
00:56:52
Speaker
And we just did a clinic.
00:56:54
Speaker
A clinic on that had nothing to do with the job, but everybody just had
00:56:59
Speaker
fun as individuals.
00:57:01
Speaker
Yes, we were related because of our job responsibilities, but it was just outside the box.
00:57:06
Speaker
I was in Florida when Disney World opened.
00:57:08
Speaker
I was able to secure some tickets and we took the whole staff over there for a day.
00:57:11
Speaker
They had a great time.
00:57:12
Speaker
I mean, it's just anything like that that'll bring the staff together.
00:57:17
Speaker
One time we went for a bike ride with the Boys and Girls Clubs.
00:57:19
Speaker
You know, we all just showed up on bikes.
00:57:21
Speaker
We said we'd ride with them that day and we just rode around the town and they had a great time.
00:57:26
Speaker
We had a great time.
00:57:27
Speaker
The staff felt better, you know,
00:57:29
Speaker
just anything, sometimes just doing something that's not particularly job related, but just it'll get the staff together so they can see each other as persons rather than it's always the job.
00:57:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:40
Speaker
An investment in anybody in any capacity, whether it's like, you know, the personal, the professional can be considered a victory because they're investing in me.
00:57:49
Speaker
It may not be the proposal I wanted, but see the things that have been done with the bike rides and the Disney world.
00:57:55
Speaker
Yes.
00:57:55
Speaker
So they can see that, you know, that you're a clinic with Pat's summit.
00:57:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:00
Speaker
It kind of, when you think about what Maggie said, having that discussion, I think part of that discussion is, you know, it can also be almost a form of professional development.
00:58:11
Speaker
But having that discussion with them of saying, OK, here's what was talked about.
00:58:14
Speaker
What would you have added into this?
00:58:17
Speaker
Because since they weren't in the room to have the discussion, they may not know.
00:58:21
Speaker
They may toss out something that you actually did put up on a table.
00:58:25
Speaker
You could say, here's why it would work.
00:58:27
Speaker
And I mean, here's what was said about that and maybe why it didn't happen at this time.
00:58:32
Speaker
Or how can we go in getting them involved in that process?
00:58:35
Speaker
Because I think if you can give them a sense of ownership and responsibility, it sometimes make them say either, A, okay, maybe I don't know as much as I thought I did and I need to calm down.
00:58:47
Speaker
Or you know what?
00:58:48
Speaker
Now you've got me even more jazzed up.
00:58:51
Speaker
I want to help you make this happen next year.
00:58:53
Speaker
And I think sometimes when I gave
00:58:55
Speaker
staff a chance to be involved in some of those decisions and some of those discussions that I was going to go up, they felt more into it.
00:59:03
Speaker
And if it worked, they felt more of a bigger sense of ownership and pride when it happened.
00:59:08
Speaker
And if it didn't work, they were like, you know what?
00:59:09
Speaker
Okay, cool.
00:59:10
Speaker
I feel your pain too.
00:59:12
Speaker
I want to help you make it happen next time.
00:59:14
Speaker
And so sometimes just getting them involved to be a part of it is a good step in their development.
00:59:21
Speaker
Well, and if all else fails, you can just tell them, hey, you and I are going to walk into our director's office right now with your attitude and you're going to deliver the message as it should have been and we're going to see how that goes.
00:59:32
Speaker
Man, we're firing everybody.
00:59:36
Speaker
But from a capital lens, Adonis, you were kind of alluding to the capital, the exchange, didn't have the cloud or whatever.
00:59:43
Speaker
There's a very interesting dynamic where it's like if you've got someone who's got a negative attitude on your staff,
00:59:51
Speaker
And everybody knows it.
00:59:54
Speaker
And they're associated with this proposal, like for better or worse, right or wrong, that could have a negative impact.
01:00:00
Speaker
And I would even consider saying, well, because you were involved, nobody, your credibility tanked this.
01:00:08
Speaker
Yeah, I've dealt with a situation in which the higher staff literally asked, what HD said this?
01:00:16
Speaker
Because they were already ready to shoot it down if certain people were involved.
01:00:21
Speaker
Because they were like, every time there's something that is stated that's not liked, it's this person.
01:00:27
Speaker
And that was one of those things is, like you said, if your name's tied to it, oh, it's getting shot down out of the bag.
01:00:33
Speaker
And that negativity, it feeds into the system.
01:00:38
Speaker
It feeds into the department.
01:00:39
Speaker
And people know.
01:00:41
Speaker
OK, especially it's bad if it's also a grad situation because they're kind of like either we're going to dismiss this person or we at least know we only got to make it one most semester and we ain't got to deal with this no more.
01:00:51
Speaker
But it literally was that it blew my mind of how quick that question came out of before we even get into this.
01:01:00
Speaker
Who is the person that brought this up?
01:01:01
Speaker
And I knew right there, like, no matter what, this ain't going to go too far.
01:01:06
Speaker
Yeah, and it's because it could be a very legitimate proposal, but if you've been nickel and diming every little thing along the way, it's so easy to dismiss.
01:01:15
Speaker
Well, that person complains about everything.
01:01:17
Speaker
Nothing we ever do is going to make them happy.
01:01:19
Speaker
So why are we going to make the effort?
01:01:20
Speaker
Like, it's just a very natural reaction.
01:01:23
Speaker
Doesn't mean it's fair.
01:01:23
Speaker
Doesn't mean it's right.
01:01:24
Speaker
But it's a reality there.
01:01:27
Speaker
I got hit with that lesson back in when I was early in my professional career was you need to understand what heels you are willing to die on.
01:01:36
Speaker
And, you know, because if you're not willing to say, okay, I'm going to take this battle all the way and see it through, don't, don't waste your time because some things it gets remembered and it puts that scarlet letter on you that, Hey, remember when he came to hear about this.
01:01:51
Speaker
And so I would think about that when I got ready to go up and debate about certain things like, yeah, I'm not going to burn up our collateral on this.
01:01:59
Speaker
We're going to, we're going to hold out for something bigger and better.
01:02:02
Speaker
You need to be sensitive to those things too.
01:02:04
Speaker
I had a boss once that, uh,
01:02:06
Speaker
It didn't matter what you asked him, his answer was always no.
01:02:08
Speaker
But I learned very quickly that there were several kinds of no's.
01:02:12
Speaker
You know, like I'd bring up the pros and he said, oh, no, we're not going to do that.
01:02:15
Speaker
Well, I didn't think much about it.
01:02:17
Speaker
A couple of weeks later, he called me.
01:02:18
Speaker
He said, Ken, he said, I want to talk about what you mentioned the other day.
01:02:20
Speaker
I said, what was that?
01:02:21
Speaker
He said, you know, this.
01:02:22
Speaker
I said, oh, you mean the thing we're not going to do?
01:02:24
Speaker
The thing you said no to?
01:02:25
Speaker
He said, yeah, I want to talk about that some more.
01:02:27
Speaker
So I went over to his office and we talked about it.
01:02:28
Speaker
He said, I don't know.
01:02:30
Speaker
I don't think we're going to do that.
01:02:31
Speaker
And so I left again.
01:02:32
Speaker
Well, he called me about three weeks later and said, Ken, I want to talk about implementing that proposal.
01:02:36
Speaker
I said, what proposal is that?
01:02:38
Speaker
And he told me, I said, you know, so I learned very quickly that he had about three types of no's and one was no, never, don't ever ask me again.
01:02:46
Speaker
And one was no, let me think about it.
01:02:48
Speaker
I need a little time to process this and absorb it.
01:02:50
Speaker
So.
01:02:51
Speaker
I think you have to take those rejections or those no's, I mean, you know, kind of with a little bit of a grain of salt to see where things are going.
01:02:58
Speaker
But it's all good.
01:03:00
Speaker
It's all good.
01:03:03
Speaker
Did that supervisor know the different no's?
01:03:06
Speaker
Like, were they cognitively aware of that?
01:03:08
Speaker
Well, we joked about it.
01:03:09
Speaker
It actually was Ray King out of South Florida.
01:03:13
Speaker
And we laughed about it over time because we became quite good friends and stuff.
01:03:16
Speaker
And so I laughed about that.
01:03:19
Speaker
He always ended a conversation.
01:03:21
Speaker
I mean, I had more ideas.
01:03:23
Speaker
I mean, I was young.
01:03:23
Speaker
I had an idea for everything then.
01:03:25
Speaker
But so, I mean, I think he just routinely said no to make me go away.
01:03:29
Speaker
So give him time to think about things I was throwing his way.
01:03:32
Speaker
Well, the last thing I'll say about this one is I told somebody, it took me a long time to learn this because, you know, again, growth and professionalism and whatever.
01:03:41
Speaker
I told someone once, it's like, you keep putting me in no-win situations.
01:03:45
Speaker
And I finally have realized that when I'm in a no-win situation, you really can't lose because I'm now just going to do whatever I want because whatever, I'm never going to appease you.
01:03:54
Speaker
So we're going to do what I want anyway.
01:03:56
Speaker
And I just have to accept that.
01:03:58
Speaker
And I think that's something that supervisors, you know,
01:04:01
Speaker
Need to accept is like sometimes know when situations are okay.
01:04:04
Speaker
Cause you can't really lose because the outcomes are determined.
01:04:07
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:08
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:09
Speaker
Yep.
01:04:09
Speaker
That's so funny JC, because I said that to one of my staff members, gosh, probably last semester.
01:04:14
Speaker
Like if you already know that the reaction to this is going to be bad.
01:04:18
Speaker
Okay, great.
01:04:19
Speaker
Go for it and do it.
01:04:20
Speaker
You know what I mean?
01:04:21
Speaker
Like if it's the best thing,
01:04:23
Speaker
decision for your unit and you know you're going to have one person who's mad about it, well, okay, you can't make decisions based on that.
01:04:30
Speaker
You may as well just rip the bandaid off and say what you need to say and move on.
01:04:34
Speaker
You know what I mean?
01:04:35
Speaker
So that's very, very true.
01:04:37
Speaker
All right.
01:04:39
Speaker
That's all the questions we got.
01:04:41
Speaker
Thanks to everyone who wrote in seeking some advice.
01:04:45
Speaker
I hope you all got something out of the show.
01:04:47
Speaker
Please consider submitting your own questions.
01:04:49
Speaker
That's the link to do so is in each episode show notes.
01:04:53
Speaker
Big or small, we will answer anything in due time, and every submission is completely anonymous.
01:05:00
Speaker
I will tell you that throughout tonight's episode, we did have some struggles with contextualizing some, so I encourage people to provide a little bit more specificity.
01:05:10
Speaker
I'm sure there's some fear that the uniqueness of the story may identify you, but I think everyone in the room can speak to these are things that are happening everywhere and are not unique to you.
01:05:22
Speaker
So if you want more specific and detailed advice, give us a little more specificity.
01:05:30
Speaker
And I want to give a big thanks to our three guests, Adonis Thompson, Maggie Guzman, and Ken Stoner for coming back on the show.
01:05:38
Speaker
Time is such a valuable commodity and I can't express how much it means to the Swakuha region that the three of you chose to invest some more of your time with us.
01:05:49
Speaker
And with that, I say to you, good day.