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021 - Reflections on Professional Involvement | Don Yackley [Past President]
3 Plays2 years ago
This month we are joined by Don Yackley, fresh off his tenure as President of SWACUHO. This is probably the most organic interview we have had thus far on the podcast, with topics ranging from stupid questions to imposter syndrome to having situational awareness. Most all of these topics weave in and around the actual topic at hand: professional involvement. Don gives us his observations on whether people are too busy to get involved, managing and changing priorities, and ghosting committees. The bottom line is this: raise your hand to do something, then show up to do it, then do it!
Seeking professional advice? Fill out this anonymous form and a panel of housing staff will give you their take on your situation on an upcoming podcast.
Recommended![025 - Fun Topics from the ACUHO-I Community Forum | Joel Gatti [Feature Topic] image](https://media.zencastr.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=112,quality=85/image-files/605db9539a00e40074826685/733e7e3d-9d73-4dce-9fd9-65d29d14b4dd.)
Transcript
Introduction to Don Yackley and Professional Involvement
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm J.C.
00:00:00
Speaker
Stoner, and this is the Swakuho Podcast.
00:00:03
Speaker
Today, we're joined by another Swakuho past president, Don Yackley.
00:00:07
Speaker
We are discussing a very important topic relevant to any president of any association.
00:00:12
Speaker
Not only that, it's important to the professional growth of our membership.
00:00:16
Speaker
That topic is professional involvement.
00:00:20
Speaker
We're going to dive into the value of being involved, the skill development associated with being involved, and also the challenges of being involved.
00:00:28
Speaker
Don serves as the Assistant Vice President for Student Affairs, Student Housing and Residential Life at the University of Houston.
00:00:34
Speaker
His job oversees the housing and residential life operations and programs serving undergraduates and graduate students with bed capacity of 8,397.
00:00:41
Speaker
Don oversaw the construction of 3,500 new beds while at the University of Houston.
00:00:50
Speaker
Don is a member of Akuhoi, the Senior Housing Officer Institute Class of 2006, and the NASMA James E. Scott National Academy for Aspiring Senior Student Affairs Officers Class of 2005.
00:01:03
Speaker
Don served a term as the chair of the Akuhoi Internship Committee in 2015 and 2016, as faculty for Akuhoi's NHTI in 2017, and as an Akuhoi Stars College faculty member in 2018-2019.
00:01:19
Speaker
and 2020.
Transition from Presidency and Lessons Learned
00:01:22
Speaker
Don served at Swakuho as the chair of the professional development committee in 2018 and 2019, was president-elect, president, and now the glorious position of past president.
00:01:35
Speaker
Don earned his bachelor of science in psychology at Southern Oregon University and a master's of education in college student services administration at Oregon State University.
00:01:45
Speaker
He started his career in housing over 30 years ago as a resident assistant in 1988 and has worked at Southern Oregon University, Pacific University, Oregon State University, Central Washington University, University of Idaho, California State University, Monterey Bay, and the University of Houston.
00:02:06
Speaker
In his spare time, Don enjoys watching too much TV, too many movies,
00:02:11
Speaker
Too much time on his PlayStation 5 and spending as much time as possible in the pool with his husband, Sid, and their dog, Pedro.
00:02:20
Speaker
Don, welcome to the show.
00:02:22
Speaker
Thanks, J.C.
00:02:24
Speaker
It's good to be here.
00:02:26
Speaker
I can't tell you how thrilled I am to have you on the show, but first things first, including you now, we have had five Wakuho past presidents on the show so far, and you are the youngest past president so far.
00:02:38
Speaker
And by youngest, I mean the closest to when you were president, having transitioned to past president at the annual conference in February only three months ago.
00:02:47
Speaker
Any thoughts on that?
00:02:48
Speaker
Calling me young is great.
00:02:49
Speaker
Just turned 55, and so I've been dealing with that transition of age.
00:02:55
Speaker
But putting it in that context, I don't know that I have any thoughts on that.
00:02:59
Speaker
That was a great experience, and now I'm in a different role, and I'm learning better.
00:03:04
Speaker
past president for Swakuho and I'm enjoying it.
00:03:09
Speaker
It's great.
00:03:10
Speaker
It's nice not to be president and all of the responsibilities that come with it too.
00:03:15
Speaker
Exactly.
00:03:16
Speaker
You know, with the retirees really have nothing to lose and Adonis is working in the private sector.
00:03:21
Speaker
So what do you say we have a little fun still in the thick of it?
00:03:24
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:03:26
Speaker
So Don, I have to say that is quite the bio of involvement.
00:03:32
Speaker
And I am impressed.
00:03:35
Speaker
Of all of those things that we've listed off, is there one piece of involvement you ever regret doing?
00:03:42
Speaker
Involvement could mean so many different things.
00:03:45
Speaker
I would say there's nothing I've regretted.
00:03:47
Speaker
There are certainly things that have been challenging or more challenging than others.
00:03:53
Speaker
My brain actually went to
00:04:02
Speaker
Because I think like anybody, you have these great experiences, but with those, you also have these really challenging experiences.
00:04:12
Speaker
And what I would say to your question that is maybe a little bit more broad and vague than you want or are asking is,
00:04:20
Speaker
But even in the roughest experiences, I think those experiences came with lessons that I would say I definitely regretted the experience in the moment, but later I gained from them and they helped open other doors down the road that helped me be more successful.
00:04:39
Speaker
So through those things that you're kind of talking about, you learn valuable lessons like what your boundaries are.
Benefits of Professional Involvement and Overcoming Challenges
00:04:52
Speaker
something, what you're willing to not put into something, how to navigate tough situations.
00:04:59
Speaker
And I think an example of that is I was recently asked to serve on a committee for a CUHOI that I initially thought I was going to say yes to, but knowing what I know now and the responsibilities with CUHO and my current job, I had to say no to.
00:05:16
Speaker
So I think part of the answer to that question is
00:05:23
Speaker
But some of my staff hate this as well when I talk about it.
00:05:27
Speaker
But typically my philosophy is how do you give the yes anyway?
00:05:31
Speaker
So without regret, and even when you regret them, you'll learn from them.
00:05:38
Speaker
I love that about how do you get to yes.
00:05:40
Speaker
And I think I'll try to remember to loop back around because I got a question in the lines a little bit with that, but it's like,
00:05:46
Speaker
the kind of the freedom that comes with professional involvement that isn't related to your job, at least directly, where you can kind of just do what you want without a boss who's telling you what to do or missions and objectives.
00:06:00
Speaker
But I love the idea of just having a kind of a blank slate that you can work with to do your own thing at your own direction.
00:06:07
Speaker
And how do you get to say yes to yourself in those moments?
00:06:10
Speaker
But, you know, I think that's really interesting because what comes to my mind when you say that is when you get involved with stuff, you know, there's there's all kinds of different levels of involvement.
00:06:20
Speaker
Right.
00:06:21
Speaker
In the biggest I found for myself, the biggest barrier to that sense of freedom that you just talked about.
00:06:29
Speaker
that sense of I can come in, I can do work, I can make a difference, I can change something or do something different.
00:06:37
Speaker
The biggest barrier for that for me has been my own hesitation that I know enough or I'm smart enough or I'm going in the right direction, what we call imposter syndrome.
00:06:50
Speaker
Taking those moments to shut that down for yourself and then do something, that's where that freedom comes and that's where making a difference, making an impact can really come from.
00:07:03
Speaker
Does that make sense?
00:07:05
Speaker
Oh, absolutely.
00:07:06
Speaker
And I couldn't agree more.
00:07:07
Speaker
It's just that getting over that hump of, you know, that imposter syndrome you talk about.
00:07:12
Speaker
And, you know, I think it's a pretty support, usually a pretty supportive environment.
00:07:15
Speaker
But you can also like dig in to like it's like a choose your own adventure.
00:07:20
Speaker
Like, again, I'll go back to like at work, everyone's got a boss and your boss has a boss.
00:07:24
Speaker
It's like, you know, we're doing things for the institution.
00:07:29
Speaker
And so a lot of times those things align with things I want to do anyway.
00:07:32
Speaker
Sometimes it doesn't.
00:07:33
Speaker
But, you know, within the professional lands or professional association menu, so to speak, it's like it's choose your own adventure.
00:07:40
Speaker
Like, am I going to do something that I can dive in really deep to of something I've already got skills in and I'm going to hone that even more?
00:07:48
Speaker
Or do I just want to try something totally new?
00:07:51
Speaker
But nobody's directing that except me in those moments.
00:07:55
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:07:55
Speaker
And my involvement in different things from the regional associations to Akuhalai and back again have often been those things that someone invited me to the table for or asked me to think about.
00:08:14
Speaker
And the most rewarding thing
00:08:17
Speaker
I guess your word freeing, but also the most challenging have been the ones that have intimidated me that I really didn't feel prepared for when in any way did the thing and came out on the other side.
00:08:32
Speaker
And I know for Akut Hawaii, that was really a powerful deterrent and motivator for becoming faculty with NHTI, which was one of the best experiences
00:08:48
Speaker
also the scariest, like who am I to be faculty for the National Housing Training Institute, right?
00:08:56
Speaker
And at that time, we were all asked to select topics of presentations, you know, to become sort of expert presenter on.
00:09:06
Speaker
I was left with occupancy management, which I have experience with, but my career trajectory really started
00:09:16
Speaker
life and occupancy management was not that.
00:09:21
Speaker
And so it was intimidating as hell.
00:09:24
Speaker
And with that, throwing my full self into it and becoming a student along the way,
00:09:31
Speaker
really helped motivate me to get to do that work, if that makes sense.
00:09:36
Speaker
And that's really been part of what I have defined my success with, whether it's involvement or work-wise or different jobs, different positions.
00:09:47
Speaker
You know, I've often looked at things and if I'm terrified of it a little bit, and that's easy for me to get terrified as a sort of
00:09:57
Speaker
self-proclaimed introvert.
00:09:58
Speaker
If I'm terrified, then I know there's something there for me to look at, if that makes sense.
00:10:03
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:10:04
Speaker
Sometimes that motivator for me to jump in with both feet and do something about it.
The Role of Questioning and Empathy in Leadership
00:10:11
Speaker
I know what you're saying because you and I have talked on a number of occasions or at the conference that like, you know, and I think even in when I asked you to be on the show, when you said, yeah, that kind of scares me, but I've also learned that those are the things that I enjoy the most after all, or I grow the most in is when you're challenged in that, those kind of like scary moments.
00:10:30
Speaker
So for whatever it's worth looking at the, across the video screen, you don't look scared.
00:10:34
Speaker
So you're covering well.
00:10:37
Speaker
Thanks.
00:10:38
Speaker
Let me ask you a few questions and then we'll get back into professional involvement.
00:10:42
Speaker
Just some things I ask of several past presidents and they may kind of stem around here, but tell us about a small niche skill that you used as in professional involvement that you think had a very specific long-term impact on your career success.
00:10:59
Speaker
You know, I think in my work and in my involvement, I think one of the tools that I
00:11:09
Speaker
my ego and really being willing to not be the smartest person in the room and really being okay with asking what may feel like in the moment is stupid questions.
00:11:25
Speaker
And, you know, I think contrary to popular sayings, I think there are stupid questions sometimes.
00:11:33
Speaker
But, you know, when you're in a leadership role, an involvement role, in a work role, you have
00:11:43
Speaker
level of consequences of those responsibilities are obviously on a continuum, but you are responsible and you have responsibilities.
00:11:51
Speaker
And to get to the best path, the best decisions, it means you really have to understand the situation, understand the challenges, understand your resources, understand your goals.
00:12:06
Speaker
And you have to be able to ask questions, you know, and the example I often give to people is, you
00:12:22
Speaker
working in housing and construction and facilities as part of that.
00:12:25
Speaker
But that's just as an example, you have to ask the questions to get the information you need to be a leader.
00:12:32
Speaker
And you have to respect the experience, knowledge that the people that you work with are joining you on that adventure come to the table with.
00:12:45
Speaker
And
00:12:46
Speaker
You have to appreciate and value your experience and skill sets and know what those are and really appreciate and let other people guide you so that you make the best decisions, you go in the right paths and you do the best work possible.
00:13:02
Speaker
And I think the first step of that is coming into the room with your ego in check.
00:13:07
Speaker
Now, that doesn't always happen.
00:13:09
Speaker
No.
00:13:10
Speaker
Because we're human, right?
00:13:12
Speaker
But it's a...
00:13:18
Speaker
possibly tried.
00:13:19
Speaker
And so I'm, I'm always working to understand the people at the table, what they're thinking, what they're, what they bring to the table.
00:13:29
Speaker
What's the, you know, what challenges to the process have we not asked?
00:13:35
Speaker
Have we not explored?
00:13:36
Speaker
And let's explore those and let's go in the, in the right direction.
00:13:40
Speaker
Did you say fur down?
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:44
Speaker
And so, you know, that space between the ceiling and the... I still don't fully know what that means.
00:13:48
Speaker
I still struggle with it because it means different things in different facilities.
00:13:55
Speaker
That's what I was just going to... Here's your number one takeaway so far.
00:13:58
Speaker
Don's going to explain what a fur down is.
00:14:00
Speaker
No, I can't.
00:14:02
Speaker
I understand it in the moment when I ask the question.
00:14:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:06
Speaker
But you also can now at least...
00:14:10
Speaker
engage in the conversation with a little bit of knowledge around it that you don't look like a total idiot.
00:14:16
Speaker
Well, and that, and part of that is making sure that you have the right people at the table and that they're sharing their expertise and their, their true opinions and knowledge.
00:14:26
Speaker
And again, all in the service of what you're doing.
00:14:31
Speaker
Here, another practical takeaway, give us a piece of advice or a strategy to our listeners.
00:14:37
Speaker
How do you tell someone their question is stupid?
00:14:43
Speaker
You don't.
00:14:43
Speaker
I mean, I think you, I think the way that I engage that too is that I have to assume that even if my question is stupid, I need the answer to it, right?
00:14:53
Speaker
For the benefit of myself or for the group I'm working with or my department or my project.
00:14:59
Speaker
You know, I flippantly said that there are stupid questions.
00:15:03
Speaker
There are frustrating questions, but if someone needs to know the answer,
00:15:08
Speaker
then you've got to help them along the way.
00:15:10
Speaker
I think the most frustrating, maybe that's a better word, question is the one that you already have the information on.
00:15:18
Speaker
You've got a resource that's been given to you.
00:15:21
Speaker
Have you not looked at it?
00:15:22
Speaker
Those are the more frustrating questions that I probably am talking about.
00:15:28
Speaker
And so the answer to your question is, hey, you may recall that I did a new week.
00:15:35
Speaker
you this and here, let's look at it together.
00:15:38
Speaker
Or once you take a look at that, let's talk about it.
00:15:40
Speaker
Or in some cases, you're assessing your time, energy, and relationship, and you just give them the answer and delightfully and move on, right?
00:15:54
Speaker
So, you know.
00:15:57
Speaker
I think you bring up an interesting point about information asymmetry, whereas people at your level or with your years of experience, a lot of things come secondhand in mind, but you have such an information discontinuity or asymmetry where some new professional...
00:16:14
Speaker
hasn't had 10 plus years of working through the same problem over and over again and doesn't understand the why or the how or any of the, this isn't really that important.
00:16:24
Speaker
So it's like brand new.
00:16:25
Speaker
And I think that's sometimes the challenge is like, I really don't want to have this conversation for the 400th time in my career, but for them, it's the first time they've ever had it.
Balancing Ego, Collaboration, and Conflict Resolution
00:16:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:35
Speaker
And I think also, I mean, there's in housing, right?
00:16:38
Speaker
We have, there is so much,
00:16:42
Speaker
so much information, policies, protocol, procedures, you know, it's really in one level unreasonable to expect everyone to know and remember everything all the time.
00:16:54
Speaker
Sorry.
00:16:55
Speaker
I will then ask when you mentioned earlier about
00:17:00
Speaker
people who come with big egos or alluded to at least, have you ever had to put somebody in their place who was coming with too much ego or acting like they're smarter than everyone in a meeting or afterwards?
00:17:16
Speaker
Oh, I mean, all the time.
00:17:18
Speaker
I mean, I don't know that I would, I would refer to it as putting someone in their place.
00:17:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:24
Speaker
But I mean, I think, you know, the other, I think, strength that I have that I utilize quite often is a sense of empathy for folks and where they're coming from and really trying to understand what's happening in situations like that.
00:17:41
Speaker
You know, and sometimes ego can be about a need to be safe.
00:17:51
Speaker
functioning or because you have a big title that they want to see be seen as a good worker.
00:17:58
Speaker
Sometimes with new supervisors, they lean on a sense of command versus a sense of personal power that you build with your team and utilize from time to time position power.
00:18:11
Speaker
And it shows up in my language through that definition of ego first.
00:18:18
Speaker
And so I think
00:18:19
Speaker
You have those conversations with them.
00:18:22
Speaker
And you would, you know, for me, I wade into those things gently.
00:18:28
Speaker
I think there was one time I could see a staff member who I really enjoyed working with.
00:18:36
Speaker
They were new and they were they had this strong sense of command that was really maybe demoralized.
00:18:46
Speaker
strongly they were coming across and maybe not always listening to other perspectives and marching forward a little too fast with decision making that was all theirs instead of getting some feedback and input and making the best decision possible and I often talk about it as you know I have a love for Godzilla movies as a kid growing up right I love the good guy and so Godzilla would come in to
00:19:16
Speaker
In every movie, he would battle the bad guys, right?
00:19:19
Speaker
And in the result, in battle, he would tear down the buildings around him, right?
00:19:26
Speaker
And when you fight the monsters, I would remind this person every now and then that there are no monsters in the room, so stop tearing down the buildings.
00:19:37
Speaker
Interesting.
00:19:38
Speaker
I think that for the good intention of wanting to be the hero or the good guy or the
00:19:45
Speaker
the competent person, you can be destructive.
00:19:48
Speaker
And if you just slow down a little and work on the relationship, and of course you have to lean on position power as well and accountability sometimes, but you can be the, you can be the superhero, but you don't have to tear down the city to do it.
00:20:05
Speaker
What a great analogy.
00:20:06
Speaker
I think that's, I think that's wonderful.
00:20:09
Speaker
And it's such an interesting thing to think about, like from a,
00:20:13
Speaker
I was actually at the conference was talking to a couple of people about like court awareness is how it was described of like, you know, and I would call it like situational awareness is like, are you reading the moment right now and what is needed from you in whatever position of power you hold?
00:20:28
Speaker
Like, do you need to give a little bit more?
00:20:30
Speaker
Do you need to exert more authority?
00:20:31
Speaker
Do you need to pull back and reading, being able to read the room is such a powerful yet and sometimes very difficult skill to foster.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:40
Speaker
I mean, I think, um,
00:20:42
Speaker
And also knowing that you're not always right when you're reading, too.
00:20:45
Speaker
I think being aware of your own
00:20:50
Speaker
again, strengths and weaknesses, but really paying attention to what's happening with the room or your people and being put in and having some time that you've spent with them and build personal power with them so that in the middle of a meeting, you can stop and go, is there something going on right now that we need to talk about because I'm sensing some real uncomfortableness or whatever label you're feeling
00:21:18
Speaker
And being okay with that awkward moment might help the group get to a better place later, even if it slows down the process.
00:21:26
Speaker
Now, if you have to do that every time, there's something else going on and going wrong.
00:21:32
Speaker
But being aware of how people are doing and caring for that helps everything go a little better, if you ask me, in my opinion.
00:21:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:43
Speaker
What an awkward moment, especially if you're like the ringleader of the meeting or the person who called the meeting to just like stop and been like, what is going on in this meeting, everybody, and drawing attention to it, whereas some of your people who might not have their court awareness or situation may not have even realized, but now like everybody knows that there's drama in the room.
00:22:02
Speaker
Well, I think that, I think, you know, my first month at Portland State, you know, University Director of Residential Life there was,
00:22:11
Speaker
brought there to start a housing program for them where they
00:22:19
Speaker
transitioning.
00:22:20
Speaker
Well, in my first month, I was asked to run a meeting and there was the vice president of auxiliary services and the dean of students, a lot of folks with varying levels of position power, a lot higher than me.
00:22:34
Speaker
And I'm running the meeting.
00:22:35
Speaker
I'm going through the agenda and I just, I am not, I'm feeling something in the room and I just stopped the meeting.
00:22:43
Speaker
Is there something we need to talk about?
00:22:45
Speaker
I'm not feeling that feeling there's tension in the room.
00:22:48
Speaker
And that goes back to the have to be okay being a disruptor or looking stupid or, you know, and it usually pays off.
00:22:59
Speaker
Maybe not in the moment, but it can pay off in other conversations later.
00:23:03
Speaker
If you can identify real issues, then you can identify real solutions.
00:23:07
Speaker
And if no one is talking about a conflict or a problem, then then that's guaranteed we're not going to get any better.
00:23:14
Speaker
Right.
00:23:14
Speaker
So that was really awkward.
00:23:16
Speaker
What was the answer to the question?
00:23:19
Speaker
Well, I mean, to sum it up and we and we really talk about it in the meeting, but after the meeting, we sure talked about it.
00:23:28
Speaker
The issue was that.
00:23:30
Speaker
Auxiliary services for the university, which is in a different division, thought that they were going to be managing housing and student affairs, a different division in the university, thought that they were going to be in charge of student housing.
00:23:41
Speaker
And this decision had not been made at the institutional level.
00:23:44
Speaker
And so there were conflicts that existed that were unresolved in impacting day-to-day and future decision-making.
00:23:55
Speaker
And we had to work through that.
00:23:57
Speaker
Wow.
00:23:58
Speaker
Everyone wanted the revenue stream, I bet.
00:24:00
Speaker
Well, troll power revenue stream.
00:24:05
Speaker
Wow.
00:24:06
Speaker
Oh, that's what a great story.
00:24:08
Speaker
Thank you.
00:24:09
Speaker
Weird.
00:24:10
Speaker
What a weird place to be, right?
00:24:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:12
Speaker
Especially again, like you said, everyone else was of different position strings.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:18
Speaker
And I'm brand new and.
00:24:19
Speaker
reading the room.
00:24:20
Speaker
I'll tell you what you that the people who can read rooms, well, like they get known.
00:24:24
Speaker
And those are the people other other people like start coming to to be like, I need to process what happened in that meeting.
00:24:30
Speaker
Or can you give me an in or what was your read on this?
00:24:33
Speaker
Like, if there is a information asymmetry, I think the people other than position strength, I think the people who can read rooms well, probably have that default power in a sense.
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
00:24:49
Speaker
Well, speaking of meetings, other than that one, what is the most ridiculous meeting you've ever sat in?
00:24:56
Speaker
You know, I've got a lot of answers to that question.
00:25:00
Speaker
I was in a meeting where the discussion was whether the position I was in would be eliminated and the housing budget would be slashed to about half.
00:25:16
Speaker
And to be asked to participate in that meeting, I think, is really unfair and ridiculous.
00:25:24
Speaker
It's the most ridiculous meeting I've ever been in.
00:25:28
Speaker
But really, my answer to that question might surprise you in that I can get really frustrated in meetings
00:25:38
Speaker
But even in the most frustrated meeting, I really hold on to a core belief that there is value in meeting and connection.
00:25:47
Speaker
And surprise, surprise, meeting in person for me is really valuable.
00:25:54
Speaker
I think that the informal, the personal power, personal relationship,
00:26:01
Speaker
that you have before a meeting, possibly during a meeting and after a meeting, walking to the meeting, returning to the meeting, seeing people face to face, I think is part of building relationships.
00:26:14
Speaker
And I think that's value in and of itself.
00:26:18
Speaker
And I understand that, you know, there's the joke of having meetings about the meeting, you know,
00:26:26
Speaker
And these things can feel like a huge waste of time, but often there is a reason, there is a point to having to do those things, even when it is we're sort of practicing because there's a more intense meeting coming up that we need to be really ready for.
00:26:46
Speaker
You really need to be ready for it then.
00:26:48
Speaker
And so, yeah, we're having a meeting about the meeting so that that meeting goes well.
00:26:53
Speaker
may have value to your department or your division.
00:26:58
Speaker
It may not be ready might impact your reputation, the esteem in which your staff holds you in or that staff, your ability to get goals accomplished, tasks done, and, you know,
00:27:15
Speaker
The times that I felt meetings are a waste of time or frustrating are when I have so fully been over-tasked by all kinds of responsibilities that I'm not able to be fully present in the meeting.
00:27:29
Speaker
And when I can turn down the volume of those pressures and those anxieties, I can really see clearly the benefits of meeting.
00:27:43
Speaker
Organizers want to get out of it just when I've got to do this, I've got to do that, I've got to do this, I've got to do this.
00:27:49
Speaker
Why am I here?
00:27:51
Speaker
Turn the volume down, be present, and then go do the stuff you've got to do.
00:28:00
Speaker
You know, Don, I've never been so motivated to have a meeting about a meeting.
00:28:05
Speaker
The positive spin on that of professional development, skill development,
00:28:10
Speaker
This should be at everybody's professional development plan now is the way I'm taking this.
00:28:14
Speaker
It's like there's skill development of preparing for a meeting and very rightfully so.
00:28:18
Speaker
It's like it could be a challenge.
00:28:19
Speaker
We've got all these things.
00:28:20
Speaker
There could be drama, the politics, like the plan.
00:28:23
Speaker
I mean, your concern makes me laugh, but it's incredibly legitimate or your observation about those.
00:28:30
Speaker
Well, I mean, don't get me wrong.
00:28:31
Speaker
I mean, I'm in meetings regularly where I'm wishing I wasn't in the meeting.
00:28:36
Speaker
But I think it's how you navigate that and how you put it in a perspective.
00:28:40
Speaker
And again, you practice the ideal, right?
00:28:45
Speaker
The ideal is to be fully present.
00:28:47
Speaker
The ideal is to contribute, right?
00:28:51
Speaker
And you can do that.
00:28:53
Speaker
You can, at times,
00:28:59
Speaker
And other times, you know, I won't be successful and I'll be living in misery in a meeting, you know, as all humans do.
00:29:08
Speaker
But I think ultimately there is truth.
00:29:11
Speaker
I believe in what I'm saying in terms of there is value in all the meetings if we show up for it.
00:29:18
Speaker
With all the functional areas under your current oversight, if you were forced to choose, which one area would you choose to work exclusively in the rest of your career?
00:29:30
Speaker
You know, ask me which one I wouldn't want to.
00:29:33
Speaker
Hey, I'll take that too.
00:29:36
Speaker
If I could remove, this is so mean and not entirely true, but if I can.
00:29:41
Speaker
Just between you and me, Don, nobody else will know.
00:29:43
Speaker
All parent interaction, we'd probably do that.
00:29:47
Speaker
And that's not fair or true entirely, but it's, you know, 51% true.
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah.
Passion for Construction Projects and Regional Involvement
00:29:54
Speaker
The greatest love that I've discovered in my career since actually coming to U of age has been working with capital construction projects.
00:30:05
Speaker
I didn't have any experience with that.
00:30:09
Speaker
I came on campus and suddenly I'm working on two $50 million projects and loved every minute of it.
00:30:19
Speaker
Working with design through the construction period
00:30:24
Speaker
through the opening.
00:30:26
Speaker
I really love that.
00:30:29
Speaker
I love advocating for the department and for students in that process.
00:30:35
Speaker
I really, truly enjoy it.
00:30:39
Speaker
I would do that more if I could.
00:30:42
Speaker
There's only so much land out there to build on, though, Don.
00:30:45
Speaker
Well, it's less about land.
00:30:46
Speaker
It's about money.
00:30:49
Speaker
You know, and also you can't just
00:30:55
Speaker
All right, so let's get back to association involvement and really dig in because that's what we're here for.
00:31:01
Speaker
This is something you spoke very passionately about at this Wakuho conference.
00:31:06
Speaker
So let's start at the beginning with a challenge a lot of young professionals face.
00:31:11
Speaker
As your bio iterates, you have involvement at all levels, regional, national, international.
00:31:18
Speaker
If forced to choose, you're
00:31:19
Speaker
Would you encourage a young professional to invest their limited professional development funds in regional participation or on a national, international participation?
00:31:29
Speaker
I don't think it, JC, I don't think it matters.
00:31:32
Speaker
Really?
00:31:32
Speaker
I think, yeah, I really don't.
00:31:35
Speaker
I mean, I have gotten tremendous, I've gotten tremendous stuff from all of those things.
00:31:41
Speaker
And
00:31:43
Speaker
I think what matters more is picking something and investing yourself into it and showing up and following through.
00:31:54
Speaker
So many of us, and myself included, have in moments said yes to things or jumped into something, and we've just been along for the ride.
00:32:02
Speaker
Yep.
00:32:03
Speaker
And I think there is value to showing up and participating in discussions.
00:32:09
Speaker
I think that there's value there, but that value doesn't exist if you don't even show up to meeting.
00:32:14
Speaker
And I also think you get so much more when you do show up and then when you fight down that imposter syndrome and you take on a task or two and contribute your time and expertise and maybe sweat to something.
00:32:32
Speaker
And that you're part of the outcome, the goals, the execution of what that involvement is.
00:32:41
Speaker
Now, I will say for me, the relationship building has been much more powerful than
00:32:49
Speaker
and meaningful at the regional level.
00:32:54
Speaker
It's been easier to connect with colleagues and stay connected and get to know them better.
00:33:01
Speaker
And so in that way, if the networking part is the bigger draw for you, then I would say regional.
00:33:11
Speaker
You also, I think, are provided
00:33:14
Speaker
more flexibility and depth of experience.
00:33:18
Speaker
The national involvement that I participated in was all very specific role-oriented.
00:33:26
Speaker
And so versus, I'm trying to think of an example of
00:33:34
Speaker
Committee for Akuhoi, there was someone from the central office helping some of the background stuff along the way, and this was fairly prescribed.
00:33:45
Speaker
This is step one, this is step two.
00:33:48
Speaker
This is step three.
00:33:49
Speaker
Here's your timeline.
00:33:51
Speaker
In the regional work, it felt more, I'm going to get in there.
00:33:55
Speaker
I'm going to have to redefine the program or the initiative.
00:33:59
Speaker
I'm going to need to set the timeline.
00:34:01
Speaker
I'm going to need to recruit the volunteers.
00:34:03
Speaker
And we're all going to have to, sometimes I like say, put on a show at the bar and save the school together.
00:34:10
Speaker
It takes a broader skill set and broader flexibility and involvement to
00:34:18
Speaker
in my experience, than the more structured national roles have been, although those have been incredibly challenging in all the good ways as well, if that makes sense.
00:34:32
Speaker
They're just very focused.
00:34:34
Speaker
I totally get what you're saying.
00:34:37
Speaker
I think it all depends, like you said, it's what do you want to get out of it?
00:34:42
Speaker
And I think that's maybe where the question, because it's something I think about a lot.
00:34:47
Speaker
in terms of like, I always hear like young professionals be like, I want to go to NASPA and I want to go to Akuho-Ai and these big ones.
00:34:53
Speaker
And I'm like, gosh, there's so huge, like it's overwhelming and it's all these things, but it's, it's, what do you, it's really, what do you want to get out of it?
00:35:02
Speaker
And I feel like I once heard, I, when I was on the Akuho-Ai programming committee off and on for several years, like, you know, you're here and there and,
00:35:13
Speaker
I was talking to somebody like, yeah, there's an eight year progression to become a midi trainer.
00:35:19
Speaker
Because you have to do three years is this, and then three years is this, and then finally, if you're lucky, it's this.
00:35:27
Speaker
So I think about those things.
00:35:28
Speaker
It's like, you know, again, advancement is not what everyone's leaking.
00:35:31
Speaker
Some people just want to contribute something.
00:35:33
Speaker
Some people want to be designated title leaders and all that.
00:35:36
Speaker
So I don't know.
00:35:37
Speaker
I just I think it's a fun thought experiment of like what where's the skill development coming out of those things.
00:35:46
Speaker
Well, it's so funny you mentioned that program committee because I did the same thing with that committee.
00:35:51
Speaker
Mostly I was a program reviewer, right?
00:35:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:54
Speaker
And I did that and it was what I was also looking for at that time was more connection with different colleagues.
00:36:01
Speaker
And now I got a spreadsheet and I need to review programs and return it.
00:36:07
Speaker
And there were certainly some other kinds of opportunities, but it was not, that wasn't the experience I wanted.
00:36:14
Speaker
And I remember clearly, it was like, you're going to need to do a reviewer for, I don't know how many years before you can be considered.
00:36:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:23
Speaker
you know, chair of the committee.
00:36:25
Speaker
Well, one, I wasn't interested in being chair of the committee, but I was interested in contributing more.
00:36:29
Speaker
Yeah, or at a different level.
00:36:31
Speaker
Right.
00:36:33
Speaker
And so, but I think how you show up and what you put into things, whether it's nationally or regionally, is what you're going to get out of it.
00:36:43
Speaker
I think you can get really good stuff out of regional or national.
00:36:47
Speaker
It's really, again, it's what you put into it.
00:36:50
Speaker
When you talk about program review, like I love programming review, being a program reviewer because it's like a very specific task.
00:36:58
Speaker
You're providing an important contribution that's shaping like a conference or whatever.
00:37:04
Speaker
And but it's also like you can do it on your own time.
00:37:07
Speaker
It's like you've got a window.
00:37:09
Speaker
So like there's that level of involvement where it's like, give me something to do and I'm going to do.
00:37:14
Speaker
Or there's other ones that are more active, like with Professional Development Committee and Swakuku U. It's like very actively generating and creating where, you know, I was a manuscript reviewer for like five or six years on the Journal of College and University Student Housing.
00:37:30
Speaker
And loved it because you'd get one every couple of months and have a month to work on it.
00:37:35
Speaker
And, wow, look at that contribution I just did.
00:37:39
Speaker
But meanwhile, I hated being a program reviewer because –
00:37:44
Speaker
get the bunch of words you're supposed to review the program on.
00:37:47
Speaker
And I'm like, they all look good to me.
00:37:50
Speaker
I want to, I want to create something and work with something and people and, um, but not, you know, not very long with people, but you know, uh, so I was bored to tears with the program review.
00:38:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:07
Speaker
I think I didn't continue with that committee very much.
00:38:10
Speaker
Well, see, I'm such a snob that I thought everybody's program was reviewed when I reviewed it was terrible.
00:38:15
Speaker
And, but I also feel like that made me a better writer of program like proposals.
00:38:21
Speaker
And actually I jokingly brag at like Swakuho conference that I just by reading the program abstracts, I can guess three out of the five top five programs are going to be announced every year.
00:38:35
Speaker
And so I'm like, they all look great.
00:38:38
Speaker
They're all great possibilities.
00:38:42
Speaker
Well, we're giving a wide, wide, wide range of experience here.
00:38:47
Speaker
That's a different.
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:50
Speaker
Hard playing hardball here.
00:38:52
Speaker
All right, go into a little bit more
Volunteerism and Professional Growth
00:38:54
Speaker
detail.
00:38:54
Speaker
From a president's standpoint, when you think about the opportunities of our involvement, you've got your committee chairs when you were president, but you'd also got these committee members.
00:39:03
Speaker
You talked a little bit about showing up and not phoning it in.
00:39:07
Speaker
Like, what is the base value, regardless of committee, regardless of responsibilities?
00:39:13
Speaker
Like, what is the value of being just a lowly old committee member?
00:39:17
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think first there are no such thing as lowly old.
00:39:22
Speaker
And I think that's actually the starting point.
00:39:26
Speaker
And I think I really, I knew this, but I really learned this again, really understand it better in my year as being president, that in SWACUHO, in our regional association, nothing happens without volunteers, without the committee members.
00:39:53
Speaker
that we do, programs, scholarships, initiatives, goals, the annual conferences, the big capstone of the year goal.
00:40:09
Speaker
None of that happens.
00:40:10
Speaker
None of it happens without committee members and committee chairs and volunteers.
00:40:17
Speaker
They're way more important than the president.
00:40:22
Speaker
And it feels cliche to say, right?
00:40:24
Speaker
Like you kind of hear that waxing on, but it's really true.
00:40:29
Speaker
You don't have a SWACUHO you without people coming together, planning, organizing, getting tasks done and executing.
00:40:40
Speaker
You don't have programs at SWACUHO without you.
00:40:48
Speaker
encouraging, promoting, doing a lot of hard work, scheduling.
00:40:53
Speaker
I mean, you just don't have that stuff.
00:40:55
Speaker
And so you don't have an association without that.
00:40:59
Speaker
I think what's so hard is I think exactly what, maybe it's too egocentric to think this way, but when I think about my own experience that we talked earlier about imposter syndrome or signing up to be a committee leader,
00:41:17
Speaker
our committee chair is what holds you back from jumping in with both feet so that you can do that work and benefit from the experience.
00:41:28
Speaker
And I think so many people are waiting for someone else to lead.
00:41:33
Speaker
Everyone else is waiting for someone else to lead or to say this is the right direction to go or you're not wrong.
00:41:41
Speaker
Take your steps.
00:41:42
Speaker
Make your action happen.
00:41:44
Speaker
go, go, go, that nothing happens when people aren't doing that.
00:41:49
Speaker
Step one is to raise your hand and say, I'll help.
00:41:52
Speaker
I'll join.
00:41:54
Speaker
Step two is just show up.
00:41:56
Speaker
That's the bare minimum, and that's sometimes one of the toughest challenges.
00:42:02
Speaker
And then step three is take on something, even if it's intimidating.
00:42:06
Speaker
Say, I'll do it.
00:42:08
Speaker
Someone needs to reach out to this person for this thing.
00:42:11
Speaker
I'll do it.
00:42:13
Speaker
say, I'll do it, do it.
00:42:14
Speaker
And don't be afraid of whether you're going to do it great or the best ever or jump in and contribute and the magic will happen and relationships will start to happen.
00:42:27
Speaker
And you're going to have a much better experience in the association just through those efforts alone.
00:42:36
Speaker
The people that I have gotten
00:42:38
Speaker
Closer to and more connected to through my involvement experience have really enhanced my work here at my own school where I'm reaching out to them and talking with them about the challenges I'm having and getting advice.
00:42:54
Speaker
And I mean also not just SHOs.
00:43:01
Speaker
But the new professionals too that I get to have conversations with.
00:43:06
Speaker
I get to hear their challenges.
00:43:09
Speaker
I'll talk about my challenges and we would never have had those conversations, those relationships if
00:43:17
Speaker
one of us or both of us didn't say, I'll do it.
00:43:20
Speaker
I'll get involved.
00:43:22
Speaker
I'll contribute.
00:43:23
Speaker
So the benefits there really are relationships and the programs and the activities you provide that then enhance the development of other people while you're enhancing it for yourself.
00:43:35
Speaker
I just think in my experience, a lot of people like the idea of getting involved.
00:43:41
Speaker
And it's much harder in time than they experience or expected.
00:43:47
Speaker
And they start to back off.
00:43:49
Speaker
And instead of saying that they're going to back off, they just stop.
00:43:53
Speaker
They start ghosting.
00:43:54
Speaker
Nobody's going to notice.
00:43:55
Speaker
Right.
00:43:56
Speaker
And everybody notices.
00:43:58
Speaker
And the reasons that they're ghosting might be that they're feeling like they don't have direction or they're waiting for someone else to give them direction.
00:44:09
Speaker
And the nature of being in a volunteer organization is that you're the leaders.
00:44:14
Speaker
Even when committee chairs have these same feelings, they're looking for leadership, you're the leader.
00:44:21
Speaker
You come together, you have experience, life experience, strengths that can contribute and have confidence in that and contribute.
00:44:31
Speaker
And it's going to be a much better experience for you and it's going to serve the association.
00:44:36
Speaker
You're going to feel like you have a sense of accomplishment.
00:44:40
Speaker
You're going to build a sense of relationships.
00:44:42
Speaker
And we'll all live happily ever after.
00:44:45
Speaker
But if you back off, if you ghost, if you don't follow through, then we don't get the really great gifts that you could have given.
00:44:55
Speaker
Well, and to put it back on them, you're not getting the skill development associated with this new leadership or opportunity or experience and
00:45:06
Speaker
I couldn't agree with you more in my observations.
00:45:09
Speaker
It's like this, our whole profession is long on people who want to do everything and short on people who will do anything.
00:45:17
Speaker
But I often think, I feel like to be really generous, I often feel like there's, again, imposter syndrome is a term we're throwing around a lot in the field a lot too.
00:45:28
Speaker
But I think it's really, it's really true.
00:45:32
Speaker
I think a lot of people don't know how to take steps forward sometimes.
00:45:36
Speaker
when they're feeling overwhelmed or unsure or not confident.
00:45:41
Speaker
I don't want to bite off more than I can chew in my first job.
00:45:45
Speaker
Right.
00:45:45
Speaker
It's like the cliche, the first time I ever jumped off the high diving board, right?
00:45:52
Speaker
It's really scary.
00:45:54
Speaker
Are you going to step off or are you going to climb back down the ladder?
00:45:57
Speaker
Jump off.
00:45:58
Speaker
Just do it.
00:46:00
Speaker
It's going to be fun.
00:46:02
Speaker
And even if it's not fun, it's going to be fun.
00:46:06
Speaker
Yeah, it would be fun for everyone else just watching.
00:46:08
Speaker
Either way.
00:46:11
Speaker
A while back, you were featured on Swakuho's social media answering this question.
00:46:17
Speaker
If I ever see this on a resume, I'll always ask about it.
00:46:22
Speaker
Do you remember what your answer was?
00:46:24
Speaker
I think it was regional or national association involvement.
00:46:28
Speaker
What would you ask a candidate if you saw something along those lines on their resume during a job interview?
00:46:35
Speaker
I have asked, you know, tell me about the experience or tell me what you learned about yourself and the experience.
00:46:44
Speaker
And I think that's telling if they're able to talk about it.
00:46:48
Speaker
It's rare that someone puts that on a resume and isn't able to talk a little bit about that.
00:46:55
Speaker
I'd like to hear it.
00:46:59
Speaker
Besides me asking the question, it's also making a statement about what I value and what then my department values because when you're the leader of a department, you get to influence those things.
00:47:15
Speaker
That's the perks that come with it.
00:47:16
Speaker
So I'm really wanting them to hear this is a value and I want to hear what they learned from it.
00:47:22
Speaker
And it also gives you a sense of what kind of level of involvement maybe they really had.
00:47:28
Speaker
Have you ever asked that of somebody and then they immediately said, well, I joined the committee and then never showed up afterwards, but was still on the roster?
00:47:35
Speaker
No, who would answer the question that way?
00:47:39
Speaker
That's hilarious.
00:47:40
Speaker
Can you imagine?
00:47:42
Speaker
Did you ever ask someone and then you could tell they were making up an answer where their real answer would have been the one I just gave?
00:47:49
Speaker
You know, I think I've
00:47:54
Speaker
the scrambling of trying to answer a question that they hadn't prepared.
00:47:59
Speaker
It's hard to really know whether it's what the different, the tipping point between I haven't prepared really an answer and I wasn't really that involved.
00:48:08
Speaker
It's hard to really know the difference between those two things, but sure.
00:48:14
Speaker
I mean, yes.
00:48:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:19
Speaker
You're a perceptive guy.
00:48:21
Speaker
You can see through it.
00:48:23
Speaker
And yeah, a lot of people can.
00:48:25
Speaker
Let's talk about balancing work, personal life and professional involvement, because I think one of the challenges a lot of especially young professionals, but of all levels would say is I don't have time.
Work-Life Balance and Professional Involvement
00:48:37
Speaker
So I think it's important to consider because on a few different episodes, we've discussed working more than 40 hours a week and balancing workloads.
00:48:45
Speaker
The staff already feel stretched.
00:48:48
Speaker
Why would they want to add something on top of that?
00:48:51
Speaker
Oh, JC, I think I don't have time is such a bullshit answer.
00:48:56
Speaker
I really do.
00:48:58
Speaker
I just, I don't have a lot of, um,
00:49:01
Speaker
I don't have a lot of patience for it.
00:49:03
Speaker
You know, in the moment I do, and I can show up in a real caring way for someone and listen and care about their, what they're, what they're saying most of the time.
00:49:14
Speaker
But, you know, we're all busy.
00:49:17
Speaker
Often I will have conversations with staff, my staff or staff across the university.
00:49:21
Speaker
And because of my titles, someone will say something to be effective, but I know you're really busy.
00:49:28
Speaker
And I'm like,
00:49:29
Speaker
We're all really busy.
00:49:30
Speaker
There is always something to do.
00:49:34
Speaker
And I just don't think that's a good answer to not being involved with something.
00:49:40
Speaker
I just think that we're all really busy.
00:49:43
Speaker
And if it's important, and I think it's really important, and if you think you can get good stuff,
00:49:50
Speaker
from the experience, which I know you can.
00:49:53
Speaker
Again, there's skills, there's competencies, experience alone, getting exposed to different opportunities that you might not have gotten in your current position.
00:50:05
Speaker
The relationship building alone has value.
00:50:09
Speaker
Okay, if you want to get to the transactional pieces alone, the resume we just talked about, the bullet, all of these things contribute to your professional well-being.
00:50:25
Speaker
And so all of us are really busy.
00:50:29
Speaker
And also all of us have different levels of responsibilities and commitments and priorities and boundaries and needs of our families, right?
00:50:38
Speaker
So we have all these other pressures and needs outside of work too.
00:50:43
Speaker
So I don't know anyone who isn't, you know, incredibly busy.
00:50:49
Speaker
And you just have to make a decision to, in my opinion, get involved with
00:50:57
Speaker
one thing, show up, contribute, and you're going to get really good stuff.
00:51:05
Speaker
And the I'm too busy is just really an excuse.
00:51:10
Speaker
It really is.
00:51:11
Speaker
And if it is truly you're too busy, then you've got to look at what you're spending your time on.
00:51:18
Speaker
There's something not right about
00:51:24
Speaker
I know busy.
00:51:25
Speaker
I'm busy.
00:51:26
Speaker
And I can find the time.
00:51:28
Speaker
Now, I also have really incredibly supportive supervisors.
00:51:33
Speaker
I have really incredibly supportive team in my department.
00:51:38
Speaker
We value involvement.
00:51:40
Speaker
We value contributing back to the profession.
00:51:44
Speaker
And if you're working in a place that doesn't value those things, get out.
00:51:48
Speaker
Find another place.
00:51:50
Speaker
And I would say that to anybody.
00:51:52
Speaker
Because...
00:51:54
Speaker
These experience help prepare you for the next challenge in your job or the next position.
00:51:59
Speaker
The relationships and the support systems and the networks you build prepares you for the next work challenge or the next position.
00:52:08
Speaker
And how about just simply contributing to other people's development and experiences?
00:52:14
Speaker
If you can't find value in that for a few hours every couple weeks, then I'm not sure
00:52:24
Speaker
I'm not, I'm not sure what to tell you.
00:52:26
Speaker
That sounds kind of harsh from a self-proclaimed feeler, a person who leads with empathy.
00:52:36
Speaker
But I also feel it's the truth.
00:52:39
Speaker
I was going to say, Don, I was completely shocked.
00:52:42
Speaker
That was not what I thought you were going to say at all.
00:52:44
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think, I think people,
00:52:47
Speaker
And that may rub folks the wrong way, but I think we use some language sometimes that become our own roadblocks.
00:52:57
Speaker
Yes.
00:52:58
Speaker
I couldn't agree more.
00:52:58
Speaker
I agree with everything you've just said.
00:53:01
Speaker
And I just think that it may mean that you're not looking at your priorities and maybe you feel like you are looking at your priorities.
00:53:10
Speaker
And we all have to, and priorities change, right?
00:53:13
Speaker
They've got to be flexible.
00:53:16
Speaker
Like,
00:53:17
Speaker
You and I were talking about this podcast, you know, and I may have been trying to worm out of it.
00:53:24
Speaker
a couple of times, but really I wanted to do it because I wanted, yeah, I wanted to contribute.
00:53:31
Speaker
But we talked about when we were going to do this and we were, we were talking about doing them in the evening time after work.
00:53:37
Speaker
And here's my boundary, you know, in my family, my husband's really important to me.
00:53:43
Speaker
My dog is really important to me.
00:53:48
Speaker
I of course work at
00:53:55
Speaker
But 90% of the time, I am leaving by 5 o'clock.
00:54:00
Speaker
I'm going home.
00:54:01
Speaker
I'm spending time with my Sid.
00:54:03
Speaker
I'm spending time with Pedro.
00:54:06
Speaker
And my trade-off is that instead of working late, I'm getting up early sometimes, more often, and coming in and doing the things I need to do to make sure my priorities are in order.
00:54:21
Speaker
So my priority is having a job and providing for my family, and my priority is time with my family and the love of my life.
00:54:31
Speaker
And my priority is contributing and having meaning.
00:54:34
Speaker
meaning in my life.
00:54:36
Speaker
And so I'm going to do all those things.
00:54:38
Speaker
I'm going to make them happen.
00:54:40
Speaker
And I'm going to do that by adjusting my schedule and trying to put some hard stops on things I won't do when I can, knowing that I can say that, but sometimes I'm still going to do those things anyway, because that's, that's the work that I do, that we do.
00:54:59
Speaker
And I think all of that's okay.
00:55:02
Speaker
And I think over committed and over involved is a lack of boundaries as well.
00:55:08
Speaker
And I think that's a huge mistake too, because, you know, what's the adage?
00:55:12
Speaker
You can do some things really great and you can do everything really poorly.
00:55:16
Speaker
You know, I don't know if that's right.
00:55:19
Speaker
It sounds like.
00:55:20
Speaker
something like that.
00:55:21
Speaker
But a couple of follow-up or comments about that is I, I, Don, I couldn't agree more with like basically everything you just said.
00:55:30
Speaker
And for anyone who's sitting at home or on the car or wherever,
00:55:34
Speaker
listening to this wondering like i am i too busy i urge you to re-listen to what don just said then go back and listen to his bio at the beginning of this episode and think about that in terms of boundaries and still able to contribute and where don's at like i could not be more impressed overall with like the the boundaries and i would also say that
00:55:58
Speaker
related to I don't have time.
00:56:00
Speaker
Like, I can't tell you how, like every time I hear that, I just want to like vomit in my mouth because like it, it is like, it could be considered like code of language.
00:56:09
Speaker
Like it could be,
00:56:11
Speaker
Oh, what you mean to say is you don't have time.
00:56:12
Speaker
It's like, it's just not a priority for me, which is a perfectly acceptable answer.
00:56:17
Speaker
Yes.
00:56:18
Speaker
Given time of year, time of day, time of week, any reason, like it could be, but the I'm so busy comes with a lot of questions I want to ask, but won't because it's not like, then I'm going to be seen as like questioning people's ability to do their basic job function.
00:56:34
Speaker
But yeah.
00:56:35
Speaker
You look back, you just touted my experience and involvement, thank you.
00:56:39
Speaker
But you'll also note that any of those experiences, I'm doing one thing.
00:56:44
Speaker
I'm not doing a ton of things.
00:56:47
Speaker
I'm doing one thing, and I started with little things first.
00:56:52
Speaker
and build them in my work week or work day.
00:56:56
Speaker
And the thing that as president that I reminded the executive leadership, uh, executive board, excuse me, and committee chairs and committee members, whatever I could, is that you're a volunteer and you have to be okay with
Effective Team Dynamics and Committee Management
00:57:10
Speaker
good enough.
00:57:10
Speaker
Sometimes, you know, show up, contribute, contribute,
00:57:14
Speaker
Remember that there are pressures and responsibilities and priorities that other volunteers and you have and that some weeks you can't do something.
00:57:23
Speaker
And that's okay.
00:57:25
Speaker
But the next week you can't.
00:57:28
Speaker
And you show up when you can and you do when you can, when you can.
00:57:33
Speaker
And knowing what you can have time for.
00:57:38
Speaker
is part of this discussion and what you don't have time for.
00:57:41
Speaker
Like I've never been, I've worked with lots of committees and lots of projects.
00:57:44
Speaker
And anytime I've had to say, I can't do this, I've not had pitchforks and shovels thrown at me.
00:57:53
Speaker
You know, everyone around the room is like, yeah, us too.
00:57:58
Speaker
Or, you know, okay, well, can we do it then, this time?
00:58:01
Speaker
And we adjust and we make, it's when you can be transparent and you can show up
00:58:08
Speaker
and you can contribute that people really support when you can contribute and how you can contribute in a volunteer organization.
00:58:17
Speaker
Wait, so you're saying I don't need the pitchfork in my office to get my staff to do what they need to do?
00:58:23
Speaker
You know, maybe donuts.
00:58:24
Speaker
I don't know.
00:58:26
Speaker
That might be more effective.
00:58:29
Speaker
I'll give that a try.
00:58:30
Speaker
We'll ease into that.
00:58:31
Speaker
People ghost because they're
00:58:33
Speaker
They're afraid of what people are gonna do or think or say, but here's the secret.
00:58:40
Speaker
You ghosted, people are gonna judge you for that too.
00:58:43
Speaker
They build a reputation for that.
00:58:47
Speaker
And that's the hard part sometimes.
00:58:49
Speaker
And like we talk about inequity of like perception.
00:58:54
Speaker
It's like somebody could very legitimately have a negative experience with a committee chair where they're like, I just don't want to do this, but I can't address it.
00:59:00
Speaker
I don't know what to do.
00:59:02
Speaker
And I'm just going to ghost.
00:59:03
Speaker
And unfortunately, what does that look like?
00:59:05
Speaker
Well, it's like, well, unfortunately, the person in the chair role or whatever in the position of power has all the say still to frame that narrative.
00:59:15
Speaker
And that's a terrible thing.
00:59:17
Speaker
Fear of what could happen or what couldn't happen is just the worst to any team or project or group.
00:59:27
Speaker
That conflict you just kind of mentioned is actually pretty common, like committee member to committee member or committee member to chair or chair to committee member or chair to exec court member.
00:59:38
Speaker
Conflicts happen.
00:59:40
Speaker
We're human.
00:59:40
Speaker
Avoiding conflict is...
00:59:44
Speaker
is exactly what you shouldn't be doing and is exactly what's going to make the situation worse versus having a conversation.
00:59:52
Speaker
Dr. Larry Roper said once, he's an amazing leader and professional in higher ed, we're all one conversation away from a better relationship.
01:00:03
Speaker
And it's so true.
01:00:04
Speaker
And so many people don't have a conversation that can change the course of your experience in your relationship
01:00:14
Speaker
And that transcends what we're talking about.
01:00:16
Speaker
That's work, that's committee work, that's volunteer work.
01:00:22
Speaker
Put fear in the back seat for a while.
01:00:24
Speaker
Turn the volume down and get to it.
01:00:30
Speaker
When we talk about entry or involvement, and I think this stems a little bit about what we were talking about and maybe what I just forgot about, is...
01:00:39
Speaker
that imposter syndrome you've talked about, but also like, do I have what it takes?
01:00:42
Speaker
It's like sometimes the entry point, the on-ramp to the involvement is like, how do we make it as small as possible?
01:00:48
Speaker
Like our little two minute drill where it's not like an overwhelming commitment as a committee member.
01:00:53
Speaker
It is like a bunch of small jobs along the way.
01:00:57
Speaker
And this is what we talk about priorities.
01:00:58
Speaker
It's not like overwhelming priority now.
01:01:00
Speaker
It's like, what's the priority now?
01:01:02
Speaker
What's I'll do this next week.
01:01:03
Speaker
Those kinds of things.
01:01:05
Speaker
In your experience, do you think committees do a good job of breaking things down to make that entry point accessible to people who might have that fear?
01:01:14
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think it's hard to talk about committees as this big, you know, they're all the same.
01:01:22
Speaker
I think that's a hard thing to answer, but I think really the answer is, in my experience, when a committee chair learns to break those tasks down,
01:01:35
Speaker
and learns to assign those tasks or get people to volunteer for little tasks, and you're returning to them and you're reinforcing them, I think, I mean, I feel in my experience that engagement is stronger and more stable than a committee chair who shows up and starts talking to the committee and is less structured and more
01:02:03
Speaker
focused on the brainstorming all the time.
01:02:06
Speaker
People need structure.
01:02:08
Speaker
And when people don't know each other well and their roles aren't super clear as volunteer roles aren't, you know,
01:02:19
Speaker
When you join a committee, you generally have a good sense of what the mission is of the committee, right?
01:02:24
Speaker
What the tasks are.
01:02:25
Speaker
I mean, it's usually in the name of the committee.
01:02:27
Speaker
It's the name of the committee.
01:02:29
Speaker
And that's a core thing that every group needs.
01:02:32
Speaker
They need to have a strong sense of their purpose and mission, right?
01:02:35
Speaker
Right.
01:02:36
Speaker
Where committees get really challenged, in my experience, because as a committee chair, I had these challenges too, is that sense of relationship.
01:02:45
Speaker
How do you build connections, that personal power when you are on the phone, as was in the past, and now on the virtual, which is more the present,
01:02:57
Speaker
And people aren't able to have those conversations, bringing it full circle to earlier conversations before meetings and after meetings and going to lunch.
01:03:07
Speaker
You know, besides the personal relationships, what are the roles?
01:03:12
Speaker
A clear understanding of this is what you're going to do.
01:03:15
Speaker
This is what I'm going to do.
01:03:16
Speaker
People need that stuff.
01:03:18
Speaker
Groups need that sense of relationship and roles.
01:03:23
Speaker
And then groups need, committees need a sense of accomplishment.
01:03:27
Speaker
And doing exactly what you said, that's what I did when I was the Pro Devo Chair for Professional Development.
01:03:35
Speaker
As the committee formed in the beginning of the year, we talked about our goals, what we're going to do.
01:03:39
Speaker
And then I, as chair, broke down a task list of all the things we need to do.
01:03:46
Speaker
And we had conversations about who's doing what.
01:03:49
Speaker
And at every meeting, we pulled out the task sheet and everyone had to give an update on where they were with that task sheet to get that sense of accomplishment as you go.
01:04:00
Speaker
And then that sense of accomplishment when the actual event happened as well.
01:04:05
Speaker
And then people need a sense of support and challenge.
01:04:08
Speaker
So a committee chair with your volunteers, you're praising, you're calling them on the phone when they're not showing up or when they're not doing the tasks and you're challenging them one-on-one, checking in with them and recognizing when people are doing good work.
01:04:25
Speaker
People need all those things.
01:04:27
Speaker
And it's really hard to be a chair and a leader when any one of those things is weak to really be successful.
01:04:35
Speaker
That's my opinion.
01:04:38
Speaker
I don't know where the question was, but that's where I went.
01:04:41
Speaker
I think that was perfect.
01:04:42
Speaker
The question was, I don't remember now either.
01:04:46
Speaker
I'm the worst.
01:04:52
Speaker
because everything you said is of value and i i in my experience you talk about your experience as community chair like mine like i remember pretty much like trying to like break things down into like to try and recruit people to like participate or like i would even label them in like color green of like
01:05:12
Speaker
low commitment, high impact involvement, or here is a high commitment, high impact, or, you know, those kinds of things.
01:05:20
Speaker
It's like going back to the ego involved.
01:05:22
Speaker
It's like, how is this going to benefit me?
01:05:24
Speaker
Like if I, if I need a care of what is it?
01:05:26
Speaker
And it's like, here's the skill development you're going to be getting.
01:05:29
Speaker
Here's the actions you're going to be taking.
01:05:31
Speaker
Sense of accomplishment, whether it's for the group or for you individually.
01:05:35
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
01:05:36
Speaker
How do you help create understanding of what that is to lead your group?
01:05:42
Speaker
volunteers and it's really hard it's hard so hard yes and I cannot wrap my head around it because I just can't imagine why it's so hard and it just is like I've made this as easy as possible or at least I feel I have again I could be totally egocentric as well it's like I made this as easy as possible I have sold
01:06:04
Speaker
the crap out of this of like the value and the impact and the personal gains, like your career by doing this one tiny little thing, your career is going to be launched in an entirely higher trajectory because of this thing.
01:06:17
Speaker
But how often did you, and I avoided this for a while and then started doing it, just call people up who were not performing or not showing up and
01:06:28
Speaker
Hey, I want to have a conversation.
01:06:29
Speaker
I mean, it's the conflict confrontation that so many people avoid that you are all one conversation away from a better relationship.
01:06:38
Speaker
And, um, and,
01:06:40
Speaker
I remember there was a moment in being chair of the internship committee for KUHUI.
01:06:45
Speaker
People were not showing up.
01:06:46
Speaker
They were not following through.
01:06:49
Speaker
And I was so, I'm such the touchy-feely empathy person.
01:06:55
Speaker
I don't want to call them up and have conversations.
01:06:58
Speaker
And really, that's exactly what needed to happen.
01:07:01
Speaker
I needed to have a conversation with
01:07:03
Speaker
With them, I needed to have a conversation with my liaison for Akuhoi, that was the Akuhoi librarian at the time, and ask, what am I doing wrong?
01:07:15
Speaker
What can I be doing better?
01:07:17
Speaker
I noticed this, this, and this, and calling individual members.
01:07:20
Speaker
I noticed you're not showing up, or I noticed you signed up for this task, but what's going on?
01:07:25
Speaker
Because I need you.
01:07:27
Speaker
And that resulted in people, a couple of people leaving the committee, and that resulted in a couple other people stepping up and performing and doing stuff.
01:07:37
Speaker
Taking a risk, being vulnerable, having a tough conversation in a caring way can help in those situations.
01:07:46
Speaker
That makes me laugh of you saying like, oh, I'm so touchy-feely and I didn't want to make this phone call.
01:07:51
Speaker
I am not touchy-feely and I don't want to make the phone calls because I'm like, no, I'm done.
01:07:57
Speaker
Like I've done everything I can if you're not going to beat me halfway.
01:08:00
Speaker
But you're right.
01:08:01
Speaker
I mean, it's still there's a value of a development and the growth even from a non-touchy-feely.
01:08:05
Speaker
It's like I just need to know commitment.
01:08:07
Speaker
Like I'm just assessing commitment here.
01:08:09
Speaker
Do you care?
01:08:09
Speaker
Are there things going on?
01:08:10
Speaker
Like, what do we need to do?
01:08:12
Speaker
I need to break this down other ways, barriers or like let's just make a clean break, like and no hard feelings.
01:08:18
Speaker
Like I get it.
01:08:19
Speaker
There's been times I would have been like, I can't like I just I'm not as excited as I once was.
01:08:24
Speaker
I've got other unexpected commitments like.
01:08:28
Speaker
let's rip that band.
01:08:29
Speaker
Like I want to rip that bandaid off for you.
01:08:31
Speaker
So you're not sitting there like, Oh my gosh, I'm ghosting people.
01:08:33
Speaker
Like, well, in reality, the answers you get are very varied.
01:08:37
Speaker
I mean, they're, they're, they're exactly what you said.
01:08:40
Speaker
One person is, I need to step away and I didn't know how to do that.
01:08:44
Speaker
You know?
01:08:45
Speaker
And another person is, I just need help in the structure.
01:08:48
Speaker
And maybe not those words, but, and they perform, you, you help them, you support that, that challenge and support.
01:08:54
Speaker
Right.
01:08:55
Speaker
Yeah.
01:08:56
Speaker
And,
01:08:57
Speaker
It's just the thing we avoid doing sometimes is the most important thing to do.
01:09:05
Speaker
Often it is.
01:09:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:07
Speaker
Show up as a human being.
01:09:09
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:09
Speaker
With empathy first.
01:09:12
Speaker
And that's why I think the like internal self judgment is often the biggest problem because it's like, I will never judge anyone for like,
01:09:22
Speaker
Things changing, priorities changing, not being involved.
01:09:24
Speaker
Like I get it.
01:09:25
Speaker
I totally get it.
01:09:26
Speaker
I'm not going to judge you for that.
01:09:27
Speaker
But what I will judge, at least internally, is like being the pretender.
01:09:31
Speaker
That's always kind of string and long.
01:09:33
Speaker
And sometimes people just don't know how to say that.
01:09:35
Speaker
It's like I committed, but I have to back out.
01:09:37
Speaker
And it's like, great, let me help you with that conversation.
01:09:40
Speaker
And sometimes it's, I'm just not feeling connected to the people I'm working with.
01:09:46
Speaker
I don't know that people would say that very often, but I think that's also really true too.
01:09:51
Speaker
And you know, what can you do as a group to help people feel connected, feel a sense of, again, revisit your mission, your purpose, build relationship, look at your sense, how you're building a sense of accomplishment, look at your challenge and support tactics and help them along.
Overcoming Non-Engagement and Closing Thoughts
01:10:11
Speaker
And the other thing I will judge is, or that just drives me crazy is like when people who have been provided opportunities or given opportunities and things to do is like when they decline or ghost or anything, and then say, I never get any opportunities.
01:10:28
Speaker
Like that's the one where it's like, we're done.
01:10:31
Speaker
Like I, I've tried a few different times.
01:10:34
Speaker
Again, it might not be the glamorous thing you want,
01:10:37
Speaker
but it's still very valuable skill development that is gonna help your career long term from doing this or those kind of things.
01:10:46
Speaker
So pro tip there for working with me.
01:10:50
Speaker
That's great.
01:10:51
Speaker
Keep that in mind.
01:10:52
Speaker
All right, Don.
01:10:53
Speaker
So as we look to wrap up, I just want to say I've had a ton of fun and you've certainly got a lot of great analogies ranging from Godzilla to everything else.
01:11:03
Speaker
But Don mentioned it earlier on the show that we are, this is the first episode I've actually recorded during business hours.
01:11:10
Speaker
So you might hear some doors opening and thankfully there were no fire alarms, but
01:11:15
Speaker
Don, I just want to thank you for challenging me in this way and tell you that there's about 25 minutes left in the workday, so even though I have zero authority over you in any capacity, you have my permission to leave work early since I was on the calendar until 5.
01:11:33
Speaker
That's very gracious of you.
01:11:34
Speaker
I might take you up on that.
01:11:36
Speaker
If you need anyone to vouch for you what you're doing, I'll make up something about how busy you were with
01:11:43
Speaker
You are so busy with your professional involvement.
01:11:45
Speaker
It lasted up until five on the dot.
01:11:48
Speaker
There you go.
01:11:49
Speaker
Don, is there anything else you'd like to share with our membership?
01:11:52
Speaker
No, I mean, I feel the urge to thank you.
01:11:56
Speaker
And when you say the membership, I have had such great support through my involvement in Swipuha.
01:12:05
Speaker
I feel like I have learned so much and received so much that just thank you comes to mind.
01:12:14
Speaker
And I really do.
01:12:15
Speaker
We've talked about a lot of things and I even got a little salty maybe on a couple of those things.
01:12:21
Speaker
But I really do believe strongly that there is tremendous value in being involved and getting connected.
01:12:31
Speaker
And what you get out of it is way more than what you put in it.
01:12:34
Speaker
the hope that you put into it amplifies so much what you get out of it.
01:12:40
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:41
Speaker
My, my real, my real wish or hope for folks listening is that you do pick something to get involved with at a maybe deeper level than just showing up to a conference.
01:12:55
Speaker
Not that just showing up to a conference isn't important because it is.
01:12:59
Speaker
And I did that for a lot of years too.
01:13:02
Speaker
But you really do get a lot of good stuff.
01:13:08
Speaker
And if anything, you develop and maintain a lot of really powerful and fulfilling relationships through that work.
01:13:17
Speaker
It's worth it.
01:13:19
Speaker
You are all too busy, but you've got a little bit of time.
01:13:23
Speaker
I promise you, you can do it.
01:13:26
Speaker
Do it.
01:13:27
Speaker
Yeah.
01:13:29
Speaker
If Don and I can do it, you all can do it too.
01:13:31
Speaker
That's right.
01:13:32
Speaker
All right.
01:13:33
Speaker
Well, thank you so much.
01:13:34
Speaker
One more time to Don Yackley for coming on the show.
01:13:38
Speaker
He did say he was a little nervous about it, but I think he was an all-star guest in an episode ripe with takeaways, things to consider that hopefully people will be referencing and thinking about and sharing with others.
01:13:51
Speaker
Look forward to the next time.
01:13:52
Speaker
And with that, I say to you, good day.