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Brewing Rebellion: Nicholas Ginter on the SCA’s Q-Grading Takeover
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I’M NOT A BARISTA is back!
In this fiery episode, we chat with Nicholas Ginter, founder of Degenerates Drinking Coffee, Q Arabica Grader, and U.S. Army veteran, who unpacks the SCA’s controversial takeover of the Q-grading system from CQI. From calling out the SCA’s “money-hungry” motives to sharing his journey from Afghanistan to coffee content creation, Nicholas offers bold insights on industry greed, and what’s next for coffee pros.
Tune in for a raw, unfiltered look at the fight for fair coffee standards! and Join the conversation on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/p/DMbsm0jPJha/?img_index=1
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Transcript
Introduction to Q Grader Program Changes
00:00:00
Speaker
They give Q graders no other choice. Would need to take the CVA course by the end of the year, or they'd be unable to fast track to an evolved Q grader. Hey, this is a cash grab. We see you for what you guys are, right? The most common sentiment expressed were how could you do this at a time when our industry is being hit by record sea market prices, tariffs, natural disaster, conflict.
00:00:22
Speaker
And now you want to force the entire coffee industry to accept a form that's neither objective nor deemed accurate internationally. And on top of that, you want all of us to pay exorbitant amounts of money to the very organization slapping us across the face.
00:00:37
Speaker
If there's one line that we could put a picture of my face with a quote on it, here's what it be. Fuck the SCA.
00:00:48
Speaker
Hello, welcome back to Amnot Barista, where we give a voice to coffee people. First, a quick apology for the three months hiatus. We have been away for our first GGAG education program in Colombia, the Global Coffee Alliance for Good.
00:01:04
Speaker
It is an initiative supporting coffee farmers through workshops and resources. And it is a collaboration with key partners like Timur, Foundation Federica, Helena Olivero, Casablanca.
00:01:17
Speaker
It's quite a busy time for us. We do have our best to prioritize the weekly story on our side, but we're back now and we will release more apps.
00:01:28
Speaker
So today we'll be talking to Nicholas Ginter, founder of Degenerate's Drinking Coffee, Acute Grater, and outspoken critic of coffee industry issues.
Nicholas Ginter's Journey in Coffee Industry
00:01:38
Speaker
So let's get into it.
00:01:43
Speaker
My name is Nick Ginter. Most people know me over the years as Degenerate or Degenerate Shrinking Coffee. So the Degenerate Shrinking Coffee is specialty coffee project I started back in 2019. So I had just got out of the the ah the United States Army at that time.
00:01:58
Speaker
I was working on a psychology degree. And at the same time as I worked on the psychology degree, I was really leaning, I would say, back into the coffee industry. Now, prior to the military, I worked commercial coffee. I worked at a Starbucks, right? that's That's kind of my introduction to coffee was that second wave scene, that big you know conglomerate of shopping.
00:02:18
Speaker
just the most sugary, disgusting you know coffee qualities and menu does at a very fast pace. There was no real appreciation for the coffee itself, but I did know at that time, at least I really liked the cafe culture and I found myself.
00:02:35
Speaker
going to more and more shops outside of work. ah And then, yeah, they went I went to the Army, started ah my my career as a non-commissioned officer, went on a few deployments. So I deployed to Africa, Iraq, and Afghanistan ah once each.
00:02:52
Speaker
And then, ah yeah, and then 2019 rolled around and i decided, you know, I'm going to get out of the military. didn't really have a clear plan of what I was going to be doing. So, The psych degree I started literally the day after I got out of the army because if I stop moving, I go crazy, right? Like I have to be doing something. So the day after getting out of the military, i started a psychology degree, but I wasn't really fulfilled by that. It was just a task to keep me busy, right? So I really had to start thinking, well, what what am I good at? What do I enjoy?
00:03:24
Speaker
Uh, and that's why i started leaning more heavily into especially coffee and how do we use research methods to evaluate coffee? How does the scientific method apply to this other thing that I really enjoy? Right.
00:03:36
Speaker
Um, so that's what I did. I, in 2019 started leaning into it, uh, called the project degenerates drinking coffee. Um, and that was kind of just based on the, the personality, you know, that I, I portray like, uh,
00:03:50
Speaker
you I shoot guns. I am very crass and vulgar. Like it's just my personality. And, you know, I i think degenerates drinking coffee kind of, you know, pairs up with that. Yeah. And people see the content I make online, right? Like it's unique.
00:04:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's an a it different, right? and it's not It's not a typical, you know, it's not typical to what I think most people are used to seeing coming out of like creators in the, uh, in the specialty coffee industry, right? Everything is pretty straight laced and, uh,
00:04:19
Speaker
and'm I'm not at all.
Impact of SCA and CQI Changes on Q Grader Program
00:04:20
Speaker
so So, I started leaning into that a little more heavily. And since 2019, Degenerates has really grown. So, started out with me doing media work.
00:04:31
Speaker
So, just working in media for um small companies that just wanted their coffees shown you know to to wider audience, right? and That started leaning a little more into, well, as I started understanding how products worked, I would start getting integrated into like the actual development and the innovation side behind the scenes before products were introduced to the public. I would assist in like, okay, how do we put this together? what What are some flaws? What are some strengths of it? What are some things we can change?
00:05:03
Speaker
And then that led into me deciding, okay, well, I'm really good at this media stuff. I can, I'm obviously good at evaluating coffees, but I don't have a credential that tells me that and doesn't tell anyone else that. Right.
00:05:17
Speaker
because what do we think when we think subject matter experts on anything? They have to have some sort of credential backing them. yeah Typically when we think of a coffee expert, what do we think? They're a world champion or they've got some sort of, they've they're a queue grader, right? They've got some sort of credential backing that.
00:05:34
Speaker
And I didn't have that. I knew I was good, but no one else knew i was good. So getting the queue, there was a little bit of selfishness in that. It was because I did want to be able to accurately assess coffee and as a result,
00:05:47
Speaker
benefit those who produce, right? And in roasters that I work with and other companies that I have contracts with. But at the same time, like, no, there was absolutely the, I want the title because that title sets me apart from other people in the industry, right?
00:06:01
Speaker
So, so then I got my, ah my cue and that kind of brings us to where we are today. We're now, I, ah work as a contractor in the the coffee industry, not just in specialty. I also work in commercial.
00:06:12
Speaker
Um, and I'm on contracts with, uh, I would say like a majority of the the players that we see in like the specialty game as well as the, uh, the commercial game.
00:06:23
Speaker
Yeah. So you have been a Q grader for how many years? ah just this Just the last year. Just last year. All right. And then something changed, right? and A few months ago.
00:06:36
Speaker
um So, yeah, that's the main thing we need to talk about. Apparently, a lot of people seems to forget about it already. They move on. Yeah. And that that's kind of like why I wanted touch base with you.
00:06:47
Speaker
is because it seems like everyone had this fire, right? Like everyone was so pissed in that day yeah that we saw that that post come up, right? It was on, when was that?
00:07:00
Speaker
It was like April, right? I think it was on, i want to say it was like April 24th. I saw that post on Instagram, a joint post by the SCA and CQI stating that the Q program was evolving.
00:07:13
Speaker
what What does that mean? all right like we Everyone just kind of got this, like the QGrader program is evolving from literally the institution that creates QGraders and then in conjunction with the SCA.
00:07:28
Speaker
That's terrifying. like what does it What does that mean? Of course, it's it's it's often good to evolve, especially as scientists. We need to look for different ways to broaden our our methods of research. We should constantly be looking for ways to do that. but None of what they were presenting was a real step in the direction of innovation or progress.
00:07:47
Speaker
um In that post that they made, there was a ton of jargon about innovation, holistic approaches, looking to the future, right? Becoming evolved. But the main takeaway was that the Q program was being sold to the SEA and that the CVA would now be mandatory for all Q graders.
Financial Implications of CVA and Industry Response
00:08:06
Speaker
yeah we We got to start with like, I think, what is the Q grader? What is the CQI? Because I think a lot of people, maybe they have an understanding of this, but... In order to understand why this is significant, we kind of need to start with that. So like the purpose of a Q grader, ah like as defined by the Coffee Quality Institute, and they've been doing this program for over 16 years, right, is to assess and grade coffee quality using like standardized methods contributing to a common language ah for coffee evaluation throughout the industry and distinguishing coffee as either commercial or specialty grade.
00:08:38
Speaker
That's the purpose of the QGrader. No point does it say, line the pockets of the SCA. it's It's supposed to be a very straightforward task right that benefits everyone from the the growers to the those who process. Everyone in supply chain benefits from the QGrader program.
00:08:55
Speaker
We can foster like trust between the grader and producer, provide all this really valuable feedback that directly impacts practices and and prices in the market.
00:09:06
Speaker
We don't often think about prices, but like, we'll get a little deeper into that. They're only going to get more expensive. And the specialty coffee industry for years now has been saying, oh, we need fair wages for growers. Well, what is the Q grader, if not a person that can help influence those prices?
00:09:26
Speaker
And if we have an accurate price on the coffee, right, then the grower gets paid more for their hard work. Right. so A QGrader awards truly remarkable coffees around the world using standardized assessments, and that's key.
00:09:41
Speaker
They're standardized under the only third-party system in the green coffee evaluation that's globally recognized, and that was the CQI. And I'm still confused about what's going on with the CQI. They're going to be around, but they're not running the Q program, but they're going to be running other programs, so we'll figure that out as as time he goes by. But, you know, as QGraders, we have the responsibility, we have that skill set,
00:10:02
Speaker
we have trust, global trust to produce accurate information on coffee quality. And i'm I'm like specifically focusing on QArabica right now, just because that's what I i i am as a QArabica grader.
00:10:15
Speaker
But still, that mission reigns the same. Uh, so how do we, I guess at this point define specialty coffee, super surface level definition, green coffee, no primary defects, no more than five secondary defects.
00:10:30
Speaker
If we're going by CQI standards, once roasted no more than three Quakers and a coming score of 80 or above, right? That's but most people in the coffee industry understand, but it's that cupping score. That's how to like, how do we get that?
00:10:44
Speaker
In the past, we used that traditional SCA cupping form, um which which has really been viewed viewed as the international standard. you know I'm an American, but if I go to South America and I don't speak the same language as the Q-Grader I'm working with down there,
00:10:59
Speaker
Dude, if we are using that SCA cupping form, we can communicate with each other like through that. We don't need to speak the same language in order to produce the same score. If we're calibrated q graders using this cupping form, it's like as I keep going back to it, standardized. We input values that give us quantitative data about the fragrance, the sweetness, the aromas, flavor, aftertaste, acidity, body, uniformity, all these things.
00:11:25
Speaker
all these things And we can actually get a score produced from that. And with places on those forms where, you know, let's say we do, if we do speak the same language, we can write in notes about what we're sampling. I'm a really heavy note taker when I'm sampling coffee. So I'm writing down everything that I'm experiencing in that. Right.
00:11:44
Speaker
And then ah use that information that's on the bottom in that note section to kind of inform how I'm scrape, you know, grading and writing in my, my actual scores for each of these. Um,
00:11:56
Speaker
So we we have that and we can put our intensity levels in the body, consider those factors as we assign scores. But at the end of our grading, those values are added up. We find out if our coffee is 80 or above.
00:12:07
Speaker
So why did this become the global method of grading coffee? As I keep going back to, it's standardized, it's objective, it accurately assesses describes quality when used by professionals such as Q graders.
00:12:23
Speaker
It's consistent, common language, guides production and roasting, and it costs, this is a big thing. It costs nothing to use, right? Like if you're, if you of course go through that Q program, the Q program is ridiculously expensive. And that's a, you know, that's another topic I can go off on. I, I did not like that, you know,
00:12:42
Speaker
I had to be in a place where I could take seven, eight days off from work and then pay $4,000, you know, and the cost of the course and travel fees so that I could attend it. I thought that was terrible because, again, coffee, I'm sure, uses these big words that they think are...
00:12:58
Speaker
really, they justify poor behavior. You know what I mean? Like, um we we see in the coffee industry a lot that the word inclusive is used, but the actions that we have in the coffee industry are not inclusive at all. If, the ah by it for example, the CVA program being the cost that it is, how is that inclusive to those who do not have the same opportunities that I have to maintain their Q license? You see what I'm saying?
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah. So... Yeah. So anyway, getting back to this form now. so So everything so sounds good. talked about the QGrading system before, but then, right, SEA, we know. I'm not bursar. I don't have a QGrader certificate or SEA courses. Never been a part of that.
00:13:43
Speaker
So what's what's wrong with the ICA? I mean, it sounds okay, right? The CQI system was good and then people move on, but it seems not.
00:13:55
Speaker
Yeah, so that's that's kind of where we're at now. So we've been using this method of grading since 2004, but in 2023, but in two thousand and twenty three ah the SCA introduced a beta of what they were calling the CVA form. Okay.
00:14:12
Speaker
This multi-form assessment protocol, tend to evaluate physical, sensory, ah descriptive, effective, and extrinsic qualities of coffee. Trying to broaden as so they keep using um ah fuller picture of what that coffee is going to taste like, right? Or what a fuller picture of what that coffee quality is.
00:14:30
Speaker
I took one of these beta courses. What stood out to me most was the overcomplication of their new coffee evaluation process and how it was not all suited for international um implementation. But you know what it was?
00:14:47
Speaker
Because I don't want to completely just tear it apart without offering you know something good about it. It's a good tool for offering ah additional information about the coffee that I might be scrutinizing. and Again, we like kind of have to look at this as if we're scientists, we want every tool available to do our jobs, to conduct the research that we're conducting.
00:15:07
Speaker
Sure. yeah like I would say that even though it's not accepted, I don't think it's very accurate, I think it's overly complicated. Well, it is a few more pieces of paper that can better inform me about the coffee I'm having, but as a required tool for offering a grade, no, not at all. That's a terrible idea.
00:15:25
Speaker
but Other voices in the industry... They identified this early on. It wasn't being accepted because of this. And it I mean, especially the effective portion of the form being so arbitrary and inaccurate.
00:15:37
Speaker
It's simply not being accepted by the whole industry. And I think the big takeaway is remember, beta just started in 2023. It's simply like too soon to tell if this is meant to be the global standard for evaluating coffee.
00:15:53
Speaker
You know, kind of getting back to back during that time, i thought that, well, the SCA doesn't control the CQI or the QGrader program. So I'll understand how to use these supplemental materials, so but I don't need it to do my job.
00:16:07
Speaker
Like, cool. i Let's be masters of our craft. Let's understand everything that's available. But at the same time, I'm not using this piece of garbage. right And you know then, like I said, going back to April, I saw that post where the Q program was just being given to the SCA.
00:16:27
Speaker
And I thought to myself, what is happening? Because you know, you have to, right? Yeah, kind of have to. And this is, they kind of, you know, we'll get into that. but They give Q graders no other choice.
00:16:40
Speaker
We'll say 10,000 Q graders worldwide. There could be more or less. There's probably significantly less now after that announcement would need to take the CVA course by the end of the year where they'd be unable to fast track to an evolved Q grader.
00:16:53
Speaker
Which I hate. What does it mean? Like you will lose your license or? No. So fast track, it's all sales, man. It's
Critique of SCA's Market Tactics and Monopoly Concerns
00:17:02
Speaker
all marketing. It's all how do we get more money, right? The fast track is you pay, you know, a thousand bucks for a course this year, right?
00:17:09
Speaker
and that you pay that thousand bucks and now you're an evolved Q grader because you've taken a CVA for couple scores. What that means is now all Q graders will in order to maintain their licenses that they already spent an absurd amount of time training it might earn, now cuppa cough up more or more money to an organization that took over the community.
00:17:28
Speaker
Now, if you are q- certified currently or you just took a recert or a recalibration, your license will still be valid until it expires. Kubernetes have three years.
00:17:41
Speaker
okay Every three years you have to calibrate. which is good. I won't hate on that. um I think that if you are, like we we just talked about how like being a Q grader carries a lot of responsibilities and you have to be able to accurately assess coffee.
00:17:58
Speaker
Yeah, you should absolutely. I think three-year interval is fine. Make sure that you still have the sensory skills of a Q grader with other Q graders. So that, not a big deal, but the fact that now CVA, like i said, if you don't take it by the end of this year, you can't fast track.
00:18:14
Speaker
I'm assuming the SCA is going to have their own variation of the Q grader course that Q graders will have to take entirely you know as a whole. in order to maintain certification.
00:18:25
Speaker
So you're going to pay more money. yeah Yeah. That's what it's all about. I mean, i mean make this very clear because this is another thing that probably sets me apart from the the majority of, I think, that the people that are making coffee at the level that I'm making it at.
00:18:40
Speaker
I'm absolutely a capitalist. like I love making money. My goal in life is to make more money before I die. I'm not opposed to an organization making money. What I am opposed to is how they make money in this manner. There still has to be a little bit of ethics involved.
00:18:55
Speaker
And what we just identified right here is that they cornered an entire industry that did not accept the beta of their form and said, cool, fuck you.
00:19:05
Speaker
You guys have to accept this form. And if you don't accept this form, hey, you know that title that you worked so hard to get? we're goingnna and We're going to snag it from you. yeah they What they did is they saw the cbo CVA program was wasn't being accepted.
00:19:21
Speaker
and Overnight, they took an internationally recognized community of the most qualified sensory scientists in the coffee industry. and fleeced it. they they They said, without outright saying that, you must pay us more for a program that you already don't accept if you wish to continue working as a quality grader.
00:19:39
Speaker
Right? And I mean, we saw this and and the backlash was pretty immediate as well. Like on on their pages, we saw in the comments, the overwhelming majority of the comments, other than those that just you know, deep throat the SCA for everything they do.
00:19:56
Speaker
ah The majority of people were saying like, hey, this is a cash grab. We see you for what you guys are, right? The most common sentiment expressed were how could you do this at a time when our industry is being hit by record sea market prices, tariffs, natural disaster, conflict.
00:20:12
Speaker
And now you want to force the entire coffee industry to accept a form that's neither objective nor deemed accurate internationally. And on top of that, you want all of us to pay exorbitant amounts of money to the very organization slapping us across the face.
00:20:28
Speaker
you know That doesn't sound good. I mean, they're already doing this, right? You don't like it, but now you have to do it because I told you so, otherwise you're out of the game. um Can you imagine what's going to happen next?
00:20:40
Speaker
They're already the only one left. Like s CQI is gone and the SCA is the only one in the coffee industry. Is it? Well, CQI is still around and they're still doing training programs. But as far as the QGrader program, that has been passed off to the SCA.
00:20:57
Speaker
So even though the CQI exists, they're not existing in the same way that they did. I think that like, like you know, in 2004,
00:21:07
Speaker
The QGrader program, I mean, that's their prize baby, right? Like that's the that's the thing that they created that since then, I mean, you walk into any shop, any third wave shop, right?
00:21:18
Speaker
And you mentioned, you know, if they ask, do you work in the industry? If you say, I'm a QGrader, they know what that is, right? there's in And that's internationally. People know what QGraders are.
00:21:29
Speaker
Because there's a lot that goes into that, like earning that title. Like, dude, doing the QGrader program wasn't fun. Like, the course wasn't exciting. It was it i was terrible. and like like it But it was good. Like, it was a good, terrible. It tested my sensory skills. It allowed me to recognize I am, and this is what I kept telling people as I was doing it, hey, you know, in addition to me wanting to, like,
00:21:53
Speaker
be a better ah figure in the coffee industry and do more good in the coffee industry. Hey, man, I also tell people I'm really good at my job and I kind of need to prove that, right? yeah I kind need to prove it to not just other people, but myself and I'm as good as I think I am.
00:22:11
Speaker
And dude, like i like I said, I've done deployments, I've done military courses, and you would think that I'd view the QGrader program as like, not too crazy. Dude, it no, it was like it was rough. you know um it's ah It's a true test of how good you are as a sensory scientist.
00:22:30
Speaker
And I think the program itself... i I nitpicked before it the price of the QGrader program I wish was lower. I wish that people all over the world, regardless of how much money they had, I wish that they could do it.
00:22:43
Speaker
How much money you have in your pockets doesn't define how good of a sensory scientist you're going to be. like I think everyone, everyone could benefit from taking the Q course, even if they don't pass it. like There's so much good information it.
00:22:55
Speaker
What sucks is now the SCA is taking it over. i mean, what does the SCA offer? The SCA also offers courses, right? And I'll be blunt. Half of them are fucking bullshit. Like I don't need to take an SCA course to understand half of the shit that they try to teach people.
00:23:11
Speaker
It does. You can. And thankfully, a lot of people have already. I mean, this is what I did and take SCA courses prior to doing the QGrader program. You know what I did? i I watched YouTube videos and i bought my own personal equipment and I practiced every day.
00:23:29
Speaker
I made solutions in my in my apartment and I practiced analyzing solutions and smelling fragrances and I bought a Lene du Cafe kit and I just hazed myself daily. yeah But that's a good way. Everybody's doing that way. i mean, it's free and you join the process, right? And you have so many good YouTubers sharing really valuable inside information. but Yeah. And why why do we have to pay for ISE courses? i mean, right? Yeah, but exactly.
00:23:57
Speaker
But can I understand this way? Like since QCI is not merged into the ISEA system and now there is a monopoly in the market, is it? Oh, wow. Yeah, I guess I didn't think about that. Yeah.
00:24:10
Speaker
Yeah, so if they run the entire QGrader program, there's no other certification. They have events, competitions, right? So everything's in their SCA now. So they are yeah like really controlling the whole coffee industry.
00:24:23
Speaker
I didn't even think about that. Yeah, because the two certifications that we look to um in terms of like quality evaluation, um when we when we talk about, hey, who can produce a cupping school score,
00:24:37
Speaker
Typically, we say, oh, someone with SCA certification or a Q grader. But now it's all, yeah, you're right. It's all under the SCA now. So, yeah, they kind of are, they've cornered the entire market.
00:24:48
Speaker
So, that's the scary part. like yeah Yeah, and you have to, again, pay that amount no matter, you know, they could. And i don't think this is I don't think this is the last action by them I think that they're going to continue. This is just the beginning.
00:25:03
Speaker
All right, because there's always, okay, now we've got evolved Q graders, but you know what happens next year when it's like, oh, but you need to be the evolved 2.0 version.
00:25:14
Speaker
So we've got another course for that. And you know what I mean? yeah It's like a black mural. Yeah, exactly. And it has... I don't think it has anything to do. We like to, like I keep saying, we like to use these words in the coffee industry of progress and innovation. And at the end of the day, I don't think it has anything to do with that. It it has everything to do with how do we make more money yeah for those that are...
00:25:42
Speaker
you know, employed at the SCA? How do we get the head of the SCA to start reaching even larger figures? What is he at a mill now annually? Like, like, see, that's the way I look at coffee.
00:25:55
Speaker
Again, we're coming from the perspective of someone who is a capitalist that enjoys making money. I think that coffee, I feel like
Economic Pressures and Coffee Industry Resilience
00:26:03
Speaker
it's sacred. I don't feel like making money off of the the blood, sweat and tears of,
00:26:09
Speaker
all these producers and all these people that are involved in the supply chain at every step to bring people of all socioeconomic backgrounds, this beautiful fucking thing.
00:26:20
Speaker
i I think that it's fundamentally wrong that the foundation of how we assess coffee and accurately price it is now being... is now being taken over by an organization that doesn't seem to have a soul. Like I don't I I if the if the SCA had been running the QGrader program years ago and, you know, the CQI just didn't exist, there's no way I would have become a QGrader. I don't like the SCA.
00:26:50
Speaker
I don't like what they stand for and I don't like their approaches to most of what they do in the coffee industry. I mean, the the the reason that they're supposed to exist, right, is to lead the way in setting standardized methods for coffee evaluation and ah being a figurehead for education.
00:27:08
Speaker
And again, I think a lot of this is just lip work. I don't think they actually do that. I think at the end of the day, it's, hey, we see this industry that's worth billions of dollars. How do we capitalize off that?
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, thinking about the whole situation, right? I did a research and of course, everybody knew that the the price, the coffee price was rocket high were earlier this year, i guess a few months back.
00:27:35
Speaker
And i don't know who benefit most from that situation. And then the price is coming back a bit, but whoever has the power, i mean, if it's the monopoly game, then if they could like it have a heavier influence on the market price. Of course, you know, it it's easier easier to imagine that who who benefit from that.
00:27:54
Speaker
Right. What I don't think is that even with these prices that are growing, i don't see i don't see people stop. like ah No one's going to stop drinking coffee.
00:28:06
Speaker
At the end of the day, we have to remember. no way. Man, I'm dream yeah i'm drinking an insanely good like Sudan roommate right now. It is fantastic. It's up there, right? I think it's up there with Gesha.
00:28:19
Speaker
Everything about it, the characteristics of it are beautiful. But... At the end of the day, as much as I love this and I appreciate all these qualities, it's also a psychoactive drug.
00:28:31
Speaker
I appreciate it because I'm also getting caffeine from it. Now think about everyone else that drinks coffee on a daily basis. Prices will go up a few dollars ah over the next few years.
00:28:42
Speaker
Over the next year, it's going to go up a few dollars per cup, right? Because you've got to think about, well, not only is the cost of coffee going to become more expensive, especially here in the United States, it's cost of materials at coffee shops like cups and straws, those are also going to increase based on tariffs from yeah where they come from. Yeah.
00:29:00
Speaker
It's a psychoactive drug. So no one's going to stop drinking it even if the price goes up. You know, it's it still has caffeine. That's the best, most a profitable product. Yeah, exactly. And it's legal. That's the best way to do it. I always use this analogy when I've talked about this very concept over the last few weeks. Like if I tell the crackhead down on the block right now, like the price of crack is going to go up over the next year. he's i don't care, dude. I'll find a way to get it.
00:29:24
Speaker
Like that's the same with coffee. Like it's still a drug at the end of the day. It's a beautiful drug. I think it's a great. It's fantastic. I love everything about it. I've devoted my entire professional life to it. But you know i don't see people are going to stop drinking it because I was thinking about that earlier this year.
00:29:43
Speaker
um with With all these increasing prices, are more shops going to end up shutting down? we going to start seeing less third-way coffee shops? I don't think so. I think that the cost of operating these shops is going to become more expensive, and I think shops will struggle and see less profit.
00:30:00
Speaker
but I think they're still going to have customer bases. They're going to be willing to pay. I think the, and this is the other reason why it's unfortunate to see that the Q grader program, I think as a result of the SCA's actions is going to decline.
00:30:12
Speaker
I think that less people are going to be, want to stay Q graders. And I think less people want to become Q graders. What's unfortunate about this is I think that over, over these next, however long, you know, we start, we're, we're going to be experiencing all these just terrible things happening
Call to Action: Resistance and Community Involvement
00:30:28
Speaker
in the industry that are influencing the prices of coffee people are going to start having to like sell i think lower quality grades of coffee right in order to make that like profit um and a lot of these shops in order to keep their doors open you know if we're saying that the this the the c market price is at an all-time high okay then like
00:30:51
Speaker
what they could previously afford per pound for specialty coffee over the next year might just have to switch to a lower grade rather than a lot of people. you know i typically see um with with third wave roasters, right people are running like typically things that are scoring around the ballpark of 86.
00:31:07
Speaker
I could see the price or or the score of coffee even reducing over these next few years to where like, who knows, man, maybe we'll start seeing like 82s, 83s because it's going to be a little bit cheaper than having to buy that higher price a lot.
00:31:24
Speaker
That's not to say that I think that coffee itself will diminish in quality. I mean, we're seeing world record highs. I don't know if you saw Esmerela just produced like a 97 and a 98. This is on CQI cupping scale, 97 98, like natural and washed, that's ninety seven and ninety eight like natural and washed gehe that's as said That's insane. It's world record setting.
00:31:46
Speaker
thats That's absurd. So like, and there's and there's constant, I mean, we're we're playing around with new experimental methods. I think processing is getting even better. I think that coffee is going to continue to grow, but we're going to start seeing maybe smaller lots of those more highly priced coffees coming out. And I think like if we're looking at the big picture, the majority of people on daily basis who consume coffee.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think that their coffees will become maybe a little bit lower quality and lower in quality because demand is still going to be there and prices will increase. Yeah, we'll see about that.
00:32:20
Speaker
um I have a question like you are a Q grader. So what are I going to do next? Are you going to follow the fast track? Oh, no. So if we're talking like a call to action, like what i what I would say for myself and other Q graders, because I was i was actually going to be flying to Canada this October.
00:32:42
Speaker
And then I kind of had to evaluate what I was doing. I had to evaluate myself. And I was like, dude, you just talked to all this shit and now you're about to bend the knee too so So no, no, I canceled that. You're not the first one. No, I canceled that. yeah no i saw I've been seeing a lot of people. I mean, you you know my Q instructors already went and took it.
00:33:01
Speaker
Whatever. you know That's their choice. But what I'd say is I see the flame dying out. I see that a lot of people have moved on. ah Use that analogy of bending the knee. they're They're opening their mouths and taking down whatever the SCA says they must accept.
00:33:15
Speaker
So, you know, here's what I would say. If there's one line that we could put a picture of my face with a quote on it, here's what it would be. Fuck the SCA. That's it.
00:33:26
Speaker
Simple as that. Fuck the SCA. I'd rather lapse as a Q Arabica grader than let the new morally bankrupt leaders of the Q community line their pockets any any further.
00:33:37
Speaker
I would hope that, I would sincerely hope that if other Q graders viewed their role as leaders in the industry is more than a simple title. follow Follow suit and demand that the SCA reconsider their approach to actively dismantling the the very heart of quality control in coffee.
00:33:56
Speaker
I keep saying it as scientists, we should always try to find ways to improve and expand. Always. But we also have to be the voice of truth even when the governing bodies of our discipline tell us that we're wrong.
00:34:09
Speaker
That's the correct approach, right? but If we're going to be as good as we think we are, if Q graders are supposed to be leading the coffee quality industry, then there has to be some voices in our industry opposing something that I think is very wrong.
00:34:27
Speaker
We shouldn't be spending more and more to satisfy the demands of an organization that at the end of the day, I don't think really cares about what the QGrader program stands for.
00:34:42
Speaker
It doesn't feel like they care. But anyway, the fact that CA does a good slogan to print on T-shirts. I agree. Let's just add some of that. um So some people already given up, right?
00:34:53
Speaker
um Because in the beginning, everybody was talking about it and re-shared, re-posted. But now you don't see it on here. that much that often anymore.
00:35:03
Speaker
um So some people decide, okay, this is how going to live a life. i This is my job. I cannot stop doing coffee because I don't like SCA or whatever. um So do you think there's an alternative solution or a other system that people can follow or someone else, if you know, in industry is building something new?
00:35:26
Speaker
I think that you don't need to be a Q grader to do a Q grader's job. I mean, I had the skills of grader before I got the title. i I think if you're working in coffee long enough, you can be a green buyer.
00:35:40
Speaker
like that's ah That's what i I keep harping on. it's like, you don't need to pay for these programs. I did because it was important to me just to have the title. But you don't need it to do the job of a Q grader.
00:35:53
Speaker
I think that the Q grader program does a really, really good job of making sure that others that are in the ins industry are properly calibrated, making sure that they can accurately assess coffee.
00:36:07
Speaker
But if you've worked in the coffee industry long enough, and you've worked with green coffee and you've worked with roasted coffee and you're a professional in the coffee industry, I don't think you need that title to do it.
00:36:20
Speaker
I would say that the biggest push right now, because I still kind of do want there to be a program similar to the what the CQI had, I think the biggest thing that we could do right now is to urge the SCA to reconsider the implementation of the CVA.
00:36:36
Speaker
I think that's the biggest action people can take is maybe not trying to start an entirely new program, right? Maybe we just maintain the old program we had.
00:36:47
Speaker
And then this company that, you know, this massive organization that just took over that program and tried changing it overnight, everyone's voices should be directed at the SCA right now.
00:36:58
Speaker
Like, I think that this could have been stopped free early on had people maintained that same fire that they had earlier when the SCA announced with the CQI, right? Because we had both of them in the same place announcing the same thing.
00:37:13
Speaker
And I'm sure, i you know, I emailed them. I have the emails. The SCA gave me the most generic washdown, like, response to why they were taking you over the program.
00:37:24
Speaker
what What did it say? but For a better future, so more innovations? So same thing, i you know, same sentiment I've kind of laid out over the course of this. um I expressed to them and they said, ah thank you so much for reaching out to us directly through with your thoughts. We understand this is a fast transition and recognize the changes of the scale.
00:37:46
Speaker
that can raise real questions and concerns, particularly about accessibility and costs. We're actively monitoring the kinds of questions and comments we receive and are working to identify commonalities across the ways that we can better support QGrayers and instructors during this time ah The Fast Track December 31 deadline is an opportunity to bypass taking the new course and still become well-versed in the new coffee value assessment. If you haven't had chance to read about the vol evolution of the 2004 cuffing form, you can find the information here. So there's the answer to that previous question. There will be an entirely new QGrader program.
00:38:22
Speaker
And the Fast Track course, you pay the $1,000 this year. you get a chance to bypass an entirely new course that's going to cost even more. But also, that email and that response, that is the corporate way of saying go fuck yourself.
00:38:37
Speaker
light ah They don't care. I mean, they they genuinely don't care. And everything I laid out was pretty cut and dry. You know, one of the the main things that I… i mentioned was again, that the coffee community is already having this severe financial strain that's being felt around the world.
00:38:58
Speaker
And by doing this last second ah implementation of a program that's only going to cost you know the people that work in the industry to maintain coffee quality, even more money, it it doesn't make any sense.
00:39:12
Speaker
It's going to have a negative impact. If the whole point of making these changes is progress, Well, then they just defeated the purpose because this is going to hinder progress, right?
00:39:26
Speaker
So that would be my recommendation. I think that more people should be turning their attention to the SCA and voicing their concerns to the SCA because even even like with that email, right?
00:39:38
Speaker
That's me getting blown off. I think if the entire QGrader community and those who want to become QGraders were to voice their opinions to the SCA and the CQI,
00:39:49
Speaker
they'd have to reconsider because what hurts organizations like that the most the loss of income. If they can't produce more revenues, then they're going to be like, oh, man, let's reevaluate.
00:40:00
Speaker
You know what I mean? If there's less people that are going to be spending money for their bullshit program, okay, then now they have to change. That's the way you really hurt. That's how you make an impact, I think.
00:40:16
Speaker
Yeah. Do you think we can see like in a couple months before, and I mean, depends on how many people decide to join the FastTrack, right? new system. And if there are only a few, maybe SA will think, oh, this is a bad decision.
00:40:33
Speaker
But to be honest, after hearing what you said earlier, I don't think they will give a shit about you know anything. and we This is the way I do. You don't like it, now you would take it. There's not a way. Otherwise, you're out of the game.
00:40:45
Speaker
yeah And of course, people still got to do the coffee job that need this paper. right or the So they will just, okay, I'm bad manese. And here's my money. right ah Yeah, I think that that's also...
00:41:00
Speaker
It's also a way that they could... It's a route that they could take with it. Because that's monopoly, right? This is what happens when only have one big player in the market. right They will decide well you're what they want you to do and you don't have other options. Unless we do have a yeah ah plan B. Yeah.
00:41:19
Speaker
But it seems we don't have one. No, I don't think... way But this would be... I mean, it would be good to... Maybe start thinking about that. and it but What really does kind of suck about the CVA course being implemented is now there's a lot of third wave shops, like big names in the industry that are having CVA courses ah already in their shops.
00:41:40
Speaker
And that's, I think, going to only justify the SCA's actions you know as acceptable, right? Because it does kind of suck that the fire kind of started to die out. And now...
00:41:55
Speaker
you know, big roasters are being like, Hey, yeah, we're offering CVA courses. It's like, no, dude, this would have been a prime opportunity for everyone to have been like, Hey, our doors are shut to the SCA and all their training.
00:42:07
Speaker
You know what i mean? Cause again, what happens when you cut off an organization like that for making more money? Oh, then they change. Then, then it's like, Oh, we realized that,
00:42:18
Speaker
our actions were not you know the the best the best decisions. that way you know And then they they they issue a little public apology and then they change things slightly and then everything is okay in their world.
00:42:34
Speaker
I think they would just like keep quiet. A lot of time pass by and people will... eventually they will forget about it. Just you know like everything else, time just wash it up. You don't remember a few years.
00:42:50
Speaker
um I think that's what corporates do, right? yeah thank It's a simple way and a cheap way. so we We cannot compete with you. We buy you out. Yeah, no, that is how it works. and If you remember, the first time I contacted you on Instagram was because this brand Cousineer. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They give away a lot of free products. They try to cover the bad things. And people you mentioned were like, don't remember anything. They were just, oh, it's a decent brand. I think it's the same strategy, right? It's funny. I see those kettles in labs all the time now. They sent it to everywhere around the world.
00:43:25
Speaker
Just everyone got one. Yeah. You can imagine the same situation next year, let's say next year. maybe yeah And then you see everybody has in this CVI system. They're new.
00:43:37
Speaker
And then no one talk about this anymore. No podcast, no post about it. yeah and Everybody just forget about it. And then you move on. Right. And it is unfortunate, at least from where I am in the industry too, because lapse in 2028 and don't renew that, well, then...
00:43:52
Speaker
twenty twenty eight right and i don't renew that oh then having that title does get you a foot in the door. So if you want to talk about making changes from within, well, you'd kind of have to have that certification or to maintain the title so that you're a part of the conversation.
Future of Coffee Industry Standards and Education
00:44:12
Speaker
They're not going to give a shit if I'm a lapsed Q grader, right? You have to be a current evolved Q grader for them to care about your opinions. So yeah, it is a tough spot to be in. And realistically, yeah, I i think that, I think it'd be difficult to start a new program.
00:44:29
Speaker
And if there was a new program, I would hope that someone like the CQI has their own variation. you know They sell the current QGrader program and then they release the new one. Wow.
00:44:40
Speaker
so like wow that that would be That would be nice, but... Maybe SEA will buy a again, yeah just with the higher price. Yeah, I think that... Again, I keep going back to, I would hope that if we annoy the SCA, then maybe they backtrack on the CVA.
00:44:58
Speaker
We're just saying- Probably there's like some legal methods to stop this. i'm I'm not sure how, you know, the the organization run the whole merges and stuff. Yeah. ah You can create a petition page and get a lawyer and yeah click enough signature and stop this.
00:45:14
Speaker
I'm not sure, you know, some some issues, legal battles, that's a way. Yeah. but I'm not sure this is one of them. Maybe. i wouldn't know. um I think that, you know, it's a tough spot to be in right now for the entire industry.
00:45:32
Speaker
And yeah I really do wish that this this kind of would have got stomped down at the start. I wish that people would have continued to fight it at the very beginning.
00:45:47
Speaker
But I don't think it's too late either. Like, again, we we haven't even gotten into the fast track program, right? like Like the fast track program that they've created isn't even done.
00:45:58
Speaker
We still till December 31st for that. They could backtrack by then. You know, they could... realize hey man like there's 10 000 q graders only 500 have taken this worldwide they're all gonna have to take the new q course and then who knows the new q grader course might be a steaming pile dog shit no one wants to get anywhere near and then like okay now we only have a thousand q graders worldwide you know what i mean like and that's not going to be great for the industry either you know you got have three q graders
00:46:30
Speaker
to produce a score, ah each with no affiliation with the coffee that they're sampling, right? So like, you kind of need to have those numbers, you kind of need to have, and 10,000 worldwide is nothing, like you kind of need to have players in the game.
00:46:48
Speaker
And like I keep saying, I think this action is going to reduce the amount of people that have that certification, or are willing to renew it. Like I said, I think that I'm in a tough spot right now because my position in the industry kind of requires me to have some sort of certification.
00:47:07
Speaker
I kind of need to be there and have a voice that allows me to like that cause chaos from within, right? Like I gotta be a part of the discussion because someone like me has to has to bring these things up to the SCA or like this isn't gonna be the last bad thing we see in the coffee industry. Who knows what could be next, right? Like you just mentioned that the Casonera Kettle thing, right? Like that that was another thing that like a lot of people stood up for that were in an industry that had big voices that said, hey, like this is pretty fucked up. We need to address this, right? No one gave damn.
00:47:48
Speaker
As long they don't hurt your wallet. Right. ah otherwise you don't Otherwise, you don't want to stand up and be the first guy to ah you know to fight a bully or or whatever. but um for For a, ah let's say, for example, in your case,
00:48:04
Speaker
you are not going to renew your certificate. So yeah no fast track at the end of this year. What's going to happen, do you think? People won't talk to you anymore? Do you think you have fewer clients in the coming years? No, I think that...
00:48:20
Speaker
What's unique about my position is that I do work in quality and innovations, but I also work in media and social media and marketing. I have other skill sets that I've added to this. right so But if like we're talking like, let's say I was only Q grader.
00:48:37
Speaker
No, I don't think that anyone would. I've earned it I don't think that anyone would change their opinions of me. I'm still actively out there competing, producing more yeah coffee knowledge videos and articles. I work with, like I said, so many companies in the industry now. I think I've kind of proven myself, not just other people, but to myself that, well, I know what the fuck I'm talking about, right? like But I think that...
00:49:04
Speaker
I think that if like you're only employed at your job as green coffee buyer, right? And you're already a Q grader and you're thinking about lapsing, fuck it, do it. like You still know how to do your job.
00:49:17
Speaker
have to I don't think that—dude, if we're being real, I don't think that half the people that work in the coffee industry, like, as, it's like, shop owners, I don't think they really give a fuck if you have a Q grader title.
00:49:31
Speaker
Like, if you maintain it, if you earn it, like, initially, hell yeah, they tote that around for a month, they tell everyone you're a Q grader, and then they kind of forget. no one's goingnna At the end of the day, no, I don't think that people are going to like look down on you for not la for not renewing, um especially because this like I would 100% in 2028, if it was still owned by the CQI, oh yeah, I'd go calibrate, right? Because that was always a part of the process. You have to go back and calibrate.
00:50:03
Speaker
But based on this, based on the Q grader program getting acquired by the SCA, no, I think that's entirely understandable. Dude, half the coffee industry doesn't like the SCA at all. They see the SCA for what they are, which is...
00:50:15
Speaker
just an organization that intends to scam coffee people out of their money, right? Like, yeah, that's, that's what they exist to do. Oh, cool. You are super passionate about this one thing.
00:50:28
Speaker
Fuck you pay us. Like that's, that's their mentality. So no, I don't, I think that if someone's thinking right now, Hey, should I, should just lapse? the year Is this the year that I should Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:41
Speaker
Absolutely. I think that it's only going to speak a little bit louder to the SEA that their program is neither being accepted internationally, nor is it accurate, nor is it nor is it something that we can compare to the old queue like the old evaluation process.
00:50:58
Speaker
As I mentioned before, the forms themselves, they do add good information. I think as supplemental material, they could be useful. But as the new international standard for grading coffee, no, fuck that. they're They're going to get inaccurate scores. People are going to be more subjective in there ah their they're evaluations of coffee. There's going to be more ah conflict between the the the growers and the producers and the scorer themselves. Like, no, they just opened up a...
00:51:28
Speaker
ah They opened up this opportunity for inaccuracies and conflict within the industry on scores when they could have just fucking maintained what was working. And if you wanted to, if you really wanted to, and this is what I think they should have done with it, introduce the CVA as a supplemental form that Q graders still have to maybe know how to do, but it's not a mandatory form that you have to produce for each coffee that you're scoring and that you have to pay a thousand dollar course for.
00:52:00
Speaker
It's more like, hey, you're already in the QGrader program. Hey, we're going to we got we just built out this online course that you can take real quick. This will show you how to use the forms. We'll send you some of this material as well. We have these printed out here.
00:52:12
Speaker
Learn how to use it. You should probably be using it when you make your scores, at least to kind of like better inform what you're doing. But to make it to make it mandatory. No, I think that's where they messed up.
00:52:24
Speaker
I think they tried to do that, right? Two, three years ago, you said the first day they launched a beta program and everybody hated it. And they said, okay, now you have to do it because there's no CQI anymore. yeah I'm the boss. I'm the only one in town. So...
00:52:39
Speaker
um Wow. But there's so sad to, you know, to talk about all of this. We can only see the negative parts of it. Do you think we can see any bright parts of of the future? Like, oh, maybe some amazing will happen later, right?
00:52:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's hard to say. I think that this does open a lot of people's eyes to how the SCA operates. Again, I keep going back to, I think that the use of these forms does still add a little bit of extra information about coffee. So that could be useful.
00:53:12
Speaker
I think that we, what we are going to see is maybe less professionals and more homebrewers and we've been seeing this over the years, but homebrewers becoming oh maybe a little more qualified than a lot of people that are professionally in the industry. right like i I see that a lot where tde people that like only brew at home do not work behind a bar or not involved in the industry at all.
00:53:37
Speaker
pro there They know more and they brew better than people that do this for a living. There was a kid at my QGrader course. He was just a home brewer that was there. Same reason that, you know, I initially did. he just wanted to He just wanted to know more. He just wanted some more knowledge, you know.
00:53:54
Speaker
you I run into people all the time that, again, they're not in the industry. This is just their hobby. And they know more about, like, the physics of filter brewing and and how and in how to accurately describe what they're tasting in better ways than people that you know own shops and have owned shops for a decade can.
00:54:18
Speaker
So what I do see happening from this... It's maybe a turn away from more formal coffee education and maybe kind of doing what, you know, I myself did, which is learn by yourself and becoming the best at your craft without, you know, submitting to the organization that, you know, dictates how it has to be done. All right.
00:54:42
Speaker
but Thanks to the internet, we have many YouTubers providing very useful and meaningful courses, actually, and completely free. So why not? um One last question.
00:54:53
Speaker
What message do you want to share with our audience today? You know, that's a tough one, man. I think that if we're just looking at the CVA program, I would say, you know, I wouldn't give up yet.
00:55:04
Speaker
This thing is still in early stages. I would continue reaching out and badgering and just straight up, but you know, annoying the SCA with with your questions and complaints about the CVA program.
00:55:17
Speaker
In terms of just coffee in general, though, would say continue to learn. I see a lot of people that. work in this industry and they get to this really high point in their professional career where they just think they, they know it all. But remember, it's a science.
00:55:31
Speaker
Everything is constantly changing. What's true today. Isn't going to be true tomorrow. So there has to be that willingness to adapt and humble yourself and realize I don't know everything, which, you know, I have to do that daily people, you know, videos that I made,
00:55:47
Speaker
years ago, like even videos I made a month ago, I see inaccuracies in those and like, oh man, that was true at the time. But now I know better, right? You know, like, I think that that's a big part of being in coffee is be open to the possibility that you're wrong.
00:56:04
Speaker
and improve on that because at the end of the day, what matters in coffee is the people. like We're supposed to be servants. Everyone in coffee, like we we do this to serve. We do this to serve other people.
00:56:18
Speaker
Every step in the supply chain, what what does it do? It directly leads to serving the next step, and then we bring that coffee to share with others. At the end of the day, what makes coffee great is that we put in a lot of work and we learn a lot about this one weird thing that we all know and love in order to make another person's experience even better and better and better.
Conclusion and Podcast Call to Action
00:56:40
Speaker
So I think that's, that's what I would say is like, take away from this, never stop learning and always, always, always serve others with this beautiful thing that we, we all are a part of. Great. Thank you.
00:56:57
Speaker
Thanks for sharing, man. Thanks for tuning in to this I'm Not A Barista episode. Subscribe to this podcast and follow us on Instagram at IamNotABarista for more empowering vibes and true coffee stories that connect you with coffee lovers around the world.