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Gillian Letham, Brisbane's Queen of the Suburbs
503 Plays2 months ago
Gillian Letham only stepped behind the bar of The Mill on Constance to help out her partner and his mate. Eleven years later, while that venue – one of those that helped build Brisbane’s beer scene – is long closed, she now oversees three venues around the city.
They’re all found in Brisbane’s ‘burbs – The Oxford Tap House in Bulimba, The Woods in Mitchellton, Clover in Holland Park – leading our feature writer Mick Wüst to tag her the Queen of the Suburbs.
Just weeks after she opened Clover, she joined Mick and Craig Williams at The Woods for a chat about her unplanned move into craft beer bar operator, her role in helping to create and build Brewsvegas, and much more, including insights into the unique challenges that come with running suburban venues.
Links relevant to or referenced in the show:
Details of the ATO’s proposed changes: https://craftypint.com/news/3582/submissions-open-on-atos-excise-draft
IBA launches Economic Data Needs Analysis: https://independentbrewers.org.au/2024/09/23/iba-launches-economic-data-needs-analysis/
Phenomenal Phat To Phire Up Hillarys Boat Harbour: https://craftypint.com/news/3580/phenomenal-phat-to-phire-up-hillarys-boat-harbour
Gillian Letham's entry in our end of 2010s Advent Calendar: https://craftypint.com/news/2250/craftys-advent-calendar-gillian-letham
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Transcript
Introduction to CraftyPint Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the CraftyPint Podcast. I'm Will. And I'm Mick. Yes, James, you will not be hearing from him this week. He's off on school holidays. He might join us next week. He's hoping to find a very cool location. I won't dox him on his holiday, so we'll save that for him. He can keep that private, but thank you for co-hosting with me, Mick. My pleasure, mate. I don't get holidays. I'll just get him to the desk right here.
00:00:34
Speaker
Yes, yes, I know the feeling.
Mountain Culture's Sydney Expansion
00:00:37
Speaker
um We've also got you on because it was one of your interviews we're about to run. But before we introduce this week's guest, some um very exciting news in the beer world, some some breaking news actually. So we've just been sent a media release that Mountain Culture will have a new venue that they hope to open in November in Sydney's inner city suburb of Redfern.
00:01:00
Speaker
Formally, they don't say it in the media release, but I double checked the address. So it it was Atomic Beer Project's home. Yeah, which is so like, so that's two venues for them in the inner West in the last like, what is it, three months?
00:01:14
Speaker
Yeah, well, this is the only venue of their own, I guess. But yes, they have the village with wildflower in in Marrickville as well. um So they they've they've moved into the city, moved in quickly. um I think probably for punters and drinkers, the exciting part is it's it's also sounds like it's going to sort of be there the home of their barrel project, which they they haven't had to date.
00:01:39
Speaker
ah yeah They make a lot of very good beers. ah that They haven't really experimented in either of that um stronger imperial stout territory or mixed culture territory. So ah that's that's probably, yeah, a direction that a lot of people will want. This is embarrassing. Is this not just barrel aged nieces? Oh, yeah, maybe, but that's true.
00:02:03
Speaker
ah ah i'm I'm really hoping for a lot of like barrel-aged pilseners. And I'm sure they won't disappoint me there. I can't wait for that. Probably true, yeah. How cool.
00:02:16
Speaker
Yeah, they've gone it's it's so funny because they have gone from being just at Katoomba in the Blue Mountains and everyone wanted their beer and you know for a lot of people that was quite hard to get to, to having their bigger brewery to now having two places in the inner west. There's got to be a lot of people very happy about this increase in access.
00:02:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, but it puts them right at the doorstop. I haven't had the chance at the time of recording to talk to the
Fat Brew Club's New Perth Venue
00:02:40
Speaker
team yet. I will will and we'll have a story out ah potentially by the time you hear this episode but it's, it's, yeah, it's pretty exciting news out of mountain culture always good to see breweries grow and expand and and particularly we're saying you know a lot of this so multi-venue strategy as well, which brings us to another big story of the week, which Fat Brew Club in WA. You may not be super familiar with Fat Mick being a Queenslander. I've literally not i've not tasted any of Fat's beers, no. I haven't looked at their logo, which they call a hot monster, but to me just looks like the fifth Ninja Turtle that needs a bit of manscaping. It's got this hairy, hot chest. like It's their their weird cousin who never comes to the fight because he's overdue for a whack.
00:03:24
Speaker
Yeah, they have, I'm going to call it, they have a lot of high-vis energy. that If you go into the venue, that's yeah it's very bright, it's very colourful. They said the new venue, which is on Hillary's boat harbour, a sort of quite beautiful spot wide on right on the water.
00:03:40
Speaker
in the northern part of Perth like um that'll still it'll be different but very brightly coloured as well um yeah which is cool. I looked at both venues today because yeah i'm I'm not like familiar with what their venues are like and their original looks great and it's like quite big they've gone from being a home brewing like a home brewing group of friends to having this what 400 person venue with indoor trees and you know I love a good indoor tree. um And then yeah now they've got this place on the harbour where you can just sit and drink beer and watch the sunset and look at boats and I love looking at boats like that's that's the dream right?
00:04:13
Speaker
It is, it is. And um what we don't get on the East Coast as well, they'll they'll get sunsets over the water. It's the dream, the absolute dream in life to see that. It's a little bit of silhouettes of boats. I don't know what it is in me, like I was a sailor in a past life or something, but that is just some bliss. um And yeah, with like a banging beer in your hand, very little better than that.
00:04:36
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. um Yeah. I think I mentioned on the podcast a few weeks ago, they've really tapped into something fat. Like they're not known at all outside of Perth really, but they've they've built a very strong following. I hung out with them a bit at froth town and I struggled to think of a brewery stand I've ever seen that's busier more often, more consistently. um They're making styles of beer that people love.
00:05:00
Speaker
deep is very quick to experiment with new hop products, new hop varieties, things like that. And also sort of fruit forward sours. I've just really tapped into a ah really strong community that their venue has an incredible food menu of Southeast Thai food and and that sort of thing. And um <unk>s it's just ah working really well for them. Yeah. not yeah You've got me salivating. I'm like, this is like very much and just an ignorant East coaster thing. But I know like that the WA beer scene has just had to build their own little island of beer culture because it's so hard to get between the two coasts. um And they've just built such a good one, like so many good breweries and yeah, not just good beer, but good venues and like good hospitality culture they've built around that with their, you know, very good food and wine culture that they've always had.
00:05:49
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. um yeah In less less fun, less exciting, but very important news. There's just a couple of updates from from the Independent Brewers Association or you more, I guess, from the political side of beer more widely.
ATO Tax Reclassification Concerns
00:06:04
Speaker
There's an excise situation going on that if brewers aren't aware of, they really need to be aware of and they need to be aware of getting their feedback in very quickly. Long story short, the ATO is trying to sort of rectify some or in there in their perception maybe rectify sort of beers, drinks like seltzers and ginger beers being taxed as beers when they potentially should be RTDs. They had a first draft to sort of look at um products where water was added
00:06:37
Speaker
to beer and sort of wanted to go down that route. They got a lot of negative feedback because that's actually a common and enough brewing practice. So there was pushback there. They've now come up with a second proposal, which will a potentially, if it goes through, would affect a lot of breweries because they want to sort of have a ruling where they can talk about what's conventionally understood as beer and having just spoken about Mountain Culture and Fat Brew Club.
00:07:08
Speaker
it's pretty clear that conventionally understood. Yeah, what's that mean, really? Oh, and Will, like you said this is boring. I think it's actually just like infuriating. The idea that, all right, if it's not bitter, if it's a bit sweet, if it's not mid-strength, we're going to just assume that that's not a conventional beer and we're going to tax it like an RTD. That applies to sours. That applies to pastry stouts. That applies to oat cream IPAs. Can you imagine a brewery getting a knock on the door saying, hey, we've decided that 10 of these beers you make are not conventional beer.
00:07:40
Speaker
and so we're going to charge you back taxes for the last two years because you've been paying taxes as the OBR. Like what a nightmare that would be for any brewery doing anything fun and different and novel. yeah Yeah, absolutely. it's it's ah pretty yeah It's a pretty worrying situation. There's a lot more detail around it. That'll be in the show notes. There's links available. You can find the RBA submission. But I think the key thing for breweries, brewery owners, anyone working in the industry is that submissions close on Friday, the 27th of September.
00:08:11
Speaker
So that's very soon when you're listening to this episode. So there's not a lot of time. You can find the IBA's submission, the information you need, and um pick that up. You can submit your own case as well. um You can support the IBA's. It's just there's there's really not much time here to sort of get voices heard and and to be active and to to be a part of that lobbying effort, which is really important. Yeah. Absolutely. No shade on the ATO, but if the people there are more used to, let's say conventional beers, let's say Largus Paydials, that doesn't mean that they should be calling other beers RTDs for tax bonuses. So it's important that brewers, people who know beer and people who know the industry actually have a say here.
00:08:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and equally and in that ah um measure, the IBA is also calling for some survey responses that were not some, they want as many as possible. They're trying to update their economic data to to help with their lobbying efforts. They're doing a huge amount at the moment. There's federal election next year. So if you own a brewery, run a brewery, um again, links will be in the show notes, but they're They haven't updated their economic impacts data since 2020. A lot's happened since then, obviously. Um, it's a slow process, but to be effective, they really need as many breweries to be involved as possible. Whether you're an IBA member or not, if you're a small brewery anywhere in the country, like, uh, you can reach out to the IBA team, uh, yeah, follow the details and so no, and complete the survey. Like again, it's just.
00:09:46
Speaker
you can't really do what you can't measure, right? So it's it's just one of those important um pieces of, yeah, of of fighting the good fight for beer, I guess. And I'm as bad as anyone, like, obviously extra paperwork or a bit of extra admin. I'll do that later and you never get around to it. So easy to do. But um this is something that's really important for a lot of voices to get heard. You mean you're not doing your tax on September 1, Mickey, or? I hate to actually just don't get me started on that.
00:10:17
Speaker
<unk> get excellent Anyway, onto today's guest, ah
Jill's Impact on Brisbane Beer Scene
00:10:22
Speaker
Mick. and in about a couple Before we even launch a podcast, so in mid-July, you sat down with one of the sort of superstars of the Brisbane beer community, someone who I've often known and called Jill from the Mill, ah which is RIP, no longer operating, but tell us about each other.
00:10:43
Speaker
Oh, it's so good. I almost wish that the whole episode had started with two Irish guys and a Scottish girl walking to a bar, because like um that's kind of how they her story started with you know opening bars and with her partner, Jer. She's very Scottish. And so you talk to her. she's She's fun. She babbles on with this beautiful Scottish voice. She's got this little room in the back of the woods, which is one of her bars um where we met, um called The Bothy, which is like a Scottish cabin where anyone can take shelter.
00:11:10
Speaker
um She's got cow skulls in all of her venues, I don't really know why, maybe they're highland coups that she's had, they're headed and brought over. But no, it was just a wonderful chat with her, getting a bit of a look back at, um yeah, how does this Scottish woman who did not drink beer when she moved to Brisbane, um end up earning three great beer venues in Brisbane, um end up being at the core of Bruce Vegas for whatever that was, six years or something, this citywide festival, still kind of at the centre,
00:11:40
Speaker
um and the foundation in a lot of ways of Brisbane's beer scene. And now, yeah, she's just opened up her um third concurrent suburban venue ah called Clover about man ah two months ago.
00:11:52
Speaker
um and so It's got this great 70s vibe, it's terracotta paint, it's wood paneling. Yeah, she and her partner, Jared, just make these wonderful venues that are both... um They've got and got the cool and they've got the sexy modern food and they've got the yeah the excellent beer offerings, um but they've also got that, you know, everybody knows your name. Cheers sort of feeling to them, which is a great combination. It's what you want in the local, right? good Good stuff, but also small town, lovely welcoming sort of vibes. I think they've nailed it.
00:12:22
Speaker
And so yeah, chatting with her about how she does that well and what that journey's been like. Yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. Yeah. I really liked this episode. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very beautiful chat really covers the span of her career and also a lot of lessons learned. And, and I think a lot of lessons for whether brewery venue owners or whoever about um really sort of particularly around staff retention and, and customer retention as well, both.
00:12:49
Speaker
basically the keys to running a successful hospitality business. But um yeah, they've done a really good job of of both those things. One of the things she mentioned, she talks about how important the details are, and she is like, oh, you know, making sure they cut the results straight, the forks facing the right way, the menus are squared off, which like, I agree with all of it, but it means when I left, I had this image in my head of her running around, seeing everything that I touched and set a skew and kind of straightening them all up. Because she does have this great eye for detail of, yeah, how do you make people feel welcome and like, this is the place I want to be.
00:13:21
Speaker
Yeah, fantastic. Well, enjoy the chat. matt Mick, thank you for joining me. um We'll see you again soon. And yeah, we should also mention that Craig Williams was along for this chat as well, our wonderful partnerships manager. So i enjoy listening to it. Cheers.
00:13:43
Speaker
And we're with Jill Latham at the Woods Bar. Yay, happy to be here. Yeah. um So, Jill, we are at the Woods in Mitchelton, which is a bar you own, but it's not the only bar you own, is it? It is not. um This is, ah well, I guess number three. um um And I now have a fourth, but obviously we've shut the original one, which was the Millon Constance. Yeah. So. So you've just opened Clover.
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah, just open Clover. Yeah. So um a bit of a surprise probably for everybody. um And a few people did, you know, probably think I was being a little bit crazy with everything that's going on in the current, I guess, I mean, hospitality sector, but just in general, I mean, I guess opening things in this type of economy, people are are worried. um It wasn't a big strategic plan. um I'd like to say I was a bit more organized than that, but um I'm not. Yeah. And I literally i I saw a listing, yeah, for it. um I actually go to a gym at the other side of town. I live this side of town but go over there. And was out, I walked with one of my friends and she was talking about Zippico shutting actually, which was actually where this came from.
00:14:51
Speaker
and I have the tap house over that side and I just thought oh I'm just gonna check it out see what the rent is like to just keep up to date with all that type of stuff so I can go back to landlords and try and negotiate if I think things have gotten cheaper or or more expensive maybe I won't negotiate then and so I went looking for the lease for Zippico and I couldn't find it and then stumbled across this venue which was suburban social um originally um the guys had two venues one in Holland Park and one in Chapel Hill and I think they just you know had a hard slog through Covid and decided to wrap it up. um It's a great spot and they had to put um had a great little feel to it and it just felt like it just needed somebody to come and love it again. yeah um I think you know it's it was hard through Covid so you could understand um how that had happened. um So yeah, spur of the moment decision. um I toured and toured with my partner
00:15:40
Speaker
a few times because we're actually just back in Brisbane three months. So I've been spending a bit of time at home in Scotland. And so it was meant to be on a holiday. So working holiday as usual. And yeah, we decided that we could do what we do um and open it as a suburban bar. I have a lot of friends in the area. Like I said, we go to the gym over there and they were like, that would be great if you guys could do the woods over here or like a version of the Tap House that it would be really great. um Yeah. So that's how that happened.
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to say, you say do what you do. Is there ah is there a same flavourness between Oxford Taphouse, the woods and Clover, or is it very much each suburb, each location has its own personality? Yeah, there's a little bit of both. So I think there's, I'd like to think there's a bit of Oz in all of them, and maybe that's like more um a mode of operation um for us. So it's, um We like to, I mean obviously independent beer and craft beer and good wine and food is at the heart of them all, but they all have their own little niche, um different you know different demographics. So um Tap House is a much older crowd. um Our regulars have been our regulars there for 10 years and they've sort of, you know, it's just steady um over there.
00:16:55
Speaker
um They like change, but they don't like too much change, so it's getting that mix between things that stay um permanent and things that get to change, and how you change it with them, so yeah getting in their buy-in. Whereas, Mitchelton here at the Woods, we've got um a younger crowd, so sort of when we opened here,
00:17:12
Speaker
five years ago, there was a lot of people just buying into the area for the first time, most of them moving out of the valley or new farm and stuff like that. So they were much more adventurous. And we probably brought more of the mill out here with that real um yeah bigger selection in the fridges, you know, more adventurous stuff. We had more international stuff. We were you know changing everything all of the time. yeah and And that worked well. It had changed a little bit over Covid because obviously I think people's um Do you know, the ability to to spend has changed. So like some of the the international stuff we've pulled back on um because it's just expensive to get in. And and also there's better range in Australia now as well. So that sort of came hand in hand. So, yeah. So Mitchell and Woods here has that slightly yeah younger crowd. um We had to get high chairs, which was a first for us. Yeah, I'm a high chair person. Yeah. Yeah. um And, i ah you know, clovers only. This was um weekend four. um So we're four weeks in. I think it's a kind of hybrid. So it's like
00:18:10
Speaker
That's how it probably sits in the middle age group. So it's like everybody's kids are a little bit older, so hopefully not as many high chairs required. Not those end-wrong with babies. But um yeah, so it seems to sit a little bit in the middle. um And I mean, it's early days, but like so far they've been keen to try the new stuff that we have.
00:18:27
Speaker
um The plus that we have of Prover Sleeves is um we've taken staff from both of our venues. um So for us, it's um it's just the same. It's just new people. So it's like there's an ease of operation um with that that comes naturally. So it makes opening venues easier now down the track.
00:18:45
Speaker
yeah can i ask gillian so I think it's awesome that you've you've opened these multiple venues now and each one sounds quite different and I think the way that you're talking about it, it sounds like each caters to a very different clientele. Is that something that you're really considerate of or thinking about when you're planning the venue and and opening it up like oh this one needs more high chairs this one needs to be more family oriented so this one's the younger audience or is it something that it's kind of opened the doors a little bit suck it and say and kind of adapt as you go yeah I think some of it is definitely evolved. um I think um with Tap House at Balimba we lived over that area so we sort of knew the market and it's very small so it's guess we can ah we wanted to like we're at the bottom end of the street so we're not really in amongst everything and we very much wanted to be like a locals place.
00:19:33
Speaker
and having had the mill in the valley where it's like, yeah, we had regulars, but I guess the main attraction um was our beer and our events and and that type of thing. So you were drawing people from all over rather than like that regular crowd. So that in that way, they were quite different. um With here, I think we had an idea that it was going to be um like a younger crowd and and more vibrant, ah not more vibrant than than the Tap House, that's the wrong word, but I guess a a bigger range that people would be willing to try.
00:20:01
Speaker
um ah like I remember when we first opened we were kind of like any night could be a Friday or a Saturday night as long as someone could get a babysitter was kind of like the vibe because we'd get, you know, moms and dads in and they were like on a Wednesday night but that was their Friday because they had a babysitter so that was definitely like a a different vibe to what that was. that was a tagline Yeah, it did feel like it. um and And I guess with um when we were looking at what is now Clover at Holland Park, um it's probably the first time I've really like
Creating Community-focused Venues
00:20:30
Speaker
preemptively thought about what it was going to be, like what I thought um the operation was going to look like, what I thought the split of like um food and drink would be, um because that's something that I guess like over time that I've now learned, I guess I've gotten smarter with the business side of it, be like, how do I build up? What staff are we going to need? What's going to be the skill set? what
00:20:48
Speaker
the budget for everything because ah you know ultimately it's a business and you've got to work out where that sits. And I think this is probably the first time I really you know crunched the numbers and I guess maybe again because of the you know just overall climate that we're in um economically I would be foolish not to. um I mean I like to think that even if we weren't in that climate you know I've evolved over 10 years that maybe I'm not quite as gung-ho as what I was previously where I was just like I mean when we opened the mill it was ah again they're always spur of the moment decisions but I guess without really knowing the nitty-gritty of how a bar worked like I'd worked in bars when I was at uni and all that type of stuff and previous to that I had done um I actually worked as like a sort of stock buyer at Lorna Jane and so I you know knew how all the things worked in margin and GP but you know until you have your own venue you
00:21:38
Speaker
do you not know all the things that are going to pop up? Yeah, yeah. So I guess it was more thought and clover this time of like who we thought it would be and how we thought it would operate and thus far we're we're fairly on the money. So yeah, so it's been good. Yeah. And um' so we're at the woods, obviously.
00:21:54
Speaker
We've got the sort of the beer bar at the front, we've got this nice cosy whiskey cocktail bar at the back, we've got the nice sunny laneway bar down the side. Can you paint us a bit of a word picture for what is what's clover like? We can't show you that right now. Yeah, um like it' it's probably brighter. um I think when we came um to the woods, um there was still a a bit of sadness in my heart about the mill. So I kind of like there was bits where I wanted to make it feel like the mill and like the the dark and the black and the, and that even the dark greens, like the same color we used to have there. And yeah, yeah, on the scale you'll add a lot of the light fixtures, several of the glasses probably were all the time. So there was definitely, it wasn't like I wanted to recreate the mill, but I loved the feeling of the mill building, like that old mill
00:22:39
Speaker
for me, like a pub at home that has you walk in and even if we weren't great at what we were doing, which we are, we still had that feeling, in um you know, it's something special about it in the building. um And then this was like a, you know, a not very attractive building so we wanted to try and do that. Clover on the other hand is like, it's it we wanted it to be like bright and daytime and i guess but i kind of thought like it's a suburb where like people there's a school behind us so like people are coming through in the afternoon and that type of stuff and you want to stop in for a drink then or maybe like a snack after picking up the kids so we kind of chose to make it a little bit brighter so it's like creams and oranges and green
00:23:18
Speaker
We've got some nice old-school tiles round the bit around the bar front, lovely um which I think, again, haven't been at home the last year. sort of Some of those little things like snuck back into my mind of like what a bar is at home and we put those little details in. um Yeah, so it's nice and bright. and Then again, probably like the business head on me, I've learned the lessons of like we've got this beautiful big laneway, but when it's wet, we lose a lot of our capacity.
00:23:43
Speaker
So at Clover when we looked at that venue I was just like well it's all covered like so even our outdoor space is covered so you start to get a little bit smarter about things like that they'd be like you know if I want to trade consistently we can week out then I've got to have a consistent amount of space um to be able to do that um and that's one of the things I guess we learned which is a difference between being in the valley or a city bar to being in the suburbs like with suburbs it's all about you know, you just want every week to be the same. You know, you want to have consistency. It's like, yeah, we have events on and we have little things that trigger spikes in sales where you need extra people. um But like something like the mill or a city venue or or somewhere where I guess you're really championing the beer.
00:24:26
Speaker
it's a big energy and the swings can be high and low as to like how much staff you need, like how much money you're going to make and and that sort of planning is hard and I think that's where I've like mellowed into the suburbs and just being like that consistency allows me to leave it leave some of the control to other people because I can be like well this is what you've got to work with, um here's ah a budget for what you can buy, here's a budget of payroll, all those things so that people can work within that framework I loved the mill. like you know It was like everything at the time and i like I couldn't believe we were going to shut it. um But like looking back, i I don't know how much longer I really probably could have kept championing the events. It's a lot of energy. um so it's kind of and and yeah Like I said, the swings up and down, it's hard to plan. like you know Sometimes we'd just need three of us there and we'd just be working the front bar and it'd be all good. You'd be in events there and sometimes you know you'd need 20 people and there's 50 kegs on and we'd say I'll pull the back and it's just like so that takes a lot of energy. yeah know i'm Suburban bars there's definitely a a more mellow pace of like you know it's with the same people and that's lovely like it's nice to know everybody and and know what people want from you as well yeah. Yeah and we'll come back to more um of the differences between a city bar and a suburban bar and how to do that well. um But you've mentioned some of your different venues so let's get a bit of a timeline as well.
00:25:47
Speaker
um You're not from here, you're from Scotland. At some point you came over here. I did. And now you're running three venues and you've been kind of at the heart of the Brisbane BSE. Yeah, accidentally, accidentally. Yeah, 10 years now. You still run through of how that happens. Yeah, yeah. So we've been in me, my partner Jar, so we met here. I think we're coming up for 22 years. So I'm 44. So I'm now half Australian, half Scottish, I guess, like smack bang in the middle. um We've been in Brisbane Oh, I think we probably came 2010. So maybe three years before we opened the mill, um I was working as a florist ah when we first moved to Brisbane, a little bit of a career change, you know, it took it a little bit easy. um ah House prices were much cheaper than what we were in Sydney, which is where we had came from. So, you know, we felt like we had, you know, money for the first time in our lives. um Yeah, then I like I'd mentioned, I worked. Let's deal with that. Let's
00:26:38
Speaker
just cruise in Brisbane. And then, you know, eventually things get expensive and I got a ah real job again, not the florist who wasn't but I was just doing it part-time. And yeah, worked at Lorna Jane and I loved that and I definitely learned lessons there on running a business.
00:26:55
Speaker
Bill and Lorna, the people that run that are, you know, very charismatic and, you know, heart, like sort of wear their heart in their sleeve and I guess make gung-ho decisions which I kind of like lent into and that's I guess maybe some of the people think things through a bit more than I do but I'd saw them be successful and just like follow ah an idea and a passion and do that type of thing and then Yeah, the building came up, ah actually, Ger and our friend Lorcan, he'd been working on this building, in the Mill, beautiful building, and originally wanted to open a coffee shop and was like, oh, and this is 2013. So there wasn't a whole heap of coffee shops there. and I mean, there obviously is now. um So they started and they said they were going to do it. The two of them wanted to get off the tools.
00:27:39
Speaker
um I was quite happy in my job doing my thing. And then, yeah, we went to see the building and I was like, yeah, great, cool, let's do it. And I was going to help them set it up. I think we got halfway through the fit out and realized, you know, coffee wasn't our game and we knew nothing about it other than we like to drink it. yeah um Two Irish guys and a Scottish girl. I mean, that sounds like a bad joke, opening a bar. but um yeah we So then we opened that and again, originally I wasn't meant to be part of it. I was just going to help them out in the beginning. This was going to be their thing. And we very quickly realized that two Irish guys running the bar was not going to be um in any way financially successful. um So over time that transitioned. and
00:28:16
Speaker
I inadvertently became, um you know, chief in charge of the mill. I didn't have a big beer palate when we began, so that was a really interesting and time. um We opened just at the same time as Newstead. So Newstead and Bursky and Oz all opened, I think, within two or three weeks of each other. um At that point in time, there was a scratch bar.
00:28:38
Speaker
obviously archive um Green Beacon had just opened, but it was really just the beginning of the Brisbane beer scene, um which I don't know that I really realized at the time that because you don't feel like you're you're doing something different. It just felt like we were doing but we were just doing what we were doing and we started drinking stuff and enjoying it and it felt like for us the more than the beer it was about um other small businesses like working with other small business we were a small business we're working with these little breweries and it just sort of rolled on from there.
00:29:09
Speaker
um once that was 2013 and then yeah we met the guys from the other venues and it was a real community at that time and again that's where I guess Bruce Vegas came out of. I got um very quickly involved with that. um I just loved I guess the energy of working with other people and they having your own small business and you know only being two or three people in a place there's not a lot of interaction. yeah I mean yeah you're interacting with customers and and that was fun but like I think having worked in a bigger organization I like to be involved in stuff and I like to be you know spinning too many plates probably um but yeah I remember Ben from scratch walked into the mill and you know pitched this idea that they'd been doing and I was like yeah let's get on board let's make this a thing and and that sort of spiraled for a few years so um but it was a great time um you know I
00:30:00
Speaker
I guess, glory days for Brisbane Beer Scene. I'd like to think they can come back. I mean, and and not that this isn't, I guess, it's just a different time. And, you know, we were young and enthusiastic. I think it's definitely evolved. and and even Yeah. I think that's one of the things I love about the craft beer industry is that you do have a lot of people who are driven by passion. They're often the people who are spinning too many plates. Yeah. once Always happy to take on more.
00:30:25
Speaker
because it's the passion, I want to see you grow and yeah to collaborate with like-minded people. is ah working with the other venues was so good. um And it really felt like you were helping, especially like each new year, you'd get unlike people who were just starting and then you'd be able to help them and and and try and show them things that you'd done that had worked or just like meeting new people.
Collaboration in Craft Beer Industry
00:30:46
Speaker
And some of it was to do with beer, some of it's to do with business, some of it's just to do with like forming friendships with people that you can talk about the same stuff with and you know get through the hard things. And and we were all, you know, um
00:30:58
Speaker
I guess we're in competition in a way, but it didn't never felt like that. um I mean, there was definitely a few times I got dirty if Brouskie got kegs that I didn't get. like I don't think there's any um um point in hiding that. But on the whole, um it was all it was all in good fun. Well, I think as well that's something that really helps to grow, not just the collaboration and the camaraderie between businesses, but for punters. It helps some punters who just know their local or their favourite brand suddenly you get to see this broader span, bigger picture. but This is a whole city yeah um of venues, of events, of beers, yeah all working together, revolving around each other. yeah um It opens their mind up. So I'm like, I'm sure new people discover your venue. Oh, definitely. And there was like a whole energy um involved in that. and it And it's for, you know, the first couple of years that just seemed to like spur itself on, like it never really, I mean, yeah, it felt like work, but it just felt like it just kept happening. And it was just that that was, you know, growth. I guess then there became so, so much, so many venues had opened in such a short space of time that then we had to try and, you know, work out a little bit more, like, how many events we could have and then it started to become not more hard work but there was definitely a lot of more organizing and planning involved and you know at the same time we'd also opened the tap house so we opened that a year after we had opened the mill originally so then we had two venues and um tap house is like it's a whole other different beast and although it was a again driven by you know good beer and good wine and and being like a little local spot um
00:32:30
Speaker
I guess it was never pioneering new beers, and i occasionally we'd give them you know something if we got it, international or something, but I guess the mill was the you know the home of good beer for us. um yeah So then that was a couple of years, so we just sort of i guess went on from there. um We opened the back bar in the mail and, you know, just kept doing events and having a great time and really just being involved in everything that was going on, showcasing breweries, getting international stuff off. Everything was ex exciting. And then it was happening for the first time. And there was a lot of buzz and just, yeah, good energy. Even putting the middle side for now because I see.
00:33:08
Speaker
It's dead and gone. It's dead and gone, but it's amazing for years of that. um yeah Putting Bruce Vegas aside for six, seven years of whatever, hectic citywide festival. yeah but twenty fourteen You've got you've got the Oxford Tap House, 2019, the Woods. yeah um 2024 now. I can only assume you got to do a new bar every single five years. What's it like having this empire almost now? What's that? I don't know, to be honest, and often we've actually got um a new manager here, Corey, um and he keeps referring to us as a group. And I'm like, oh, it's We're not group, like we're just venues. like you know yeah I know. And and that's like a weird concept for me. But um like my life's changed a lot in the last um couple of years. um Unfortunately, my dad hasn't been very well. So I went home last year, ah maybe the year before actually, meant to be for a three weeks holiday and dad had been hiding that his cancer had returned. So I ended up not coming home for nine months. um And that sort of changed how I operated because I had to give away
00:34:11
Speaker
um I guess what I thought was like the heart of the business, which is is like the product. So it was like making sure like that we had the right thing for people and I guess really understanding the customer and and letting that happen to let that be someone else's decision, you know, the beer to buy because they love it, you know.
00:34:29
Speaker
and and then wasn't the thing that I had picked or I had tasted. um So that's helped that break, I guess forced my hand to change how I operated. And then I guess that left a little bit of space that I wasn't then maybe tied to a venue. So when I came back, I felt like I could do another venue. So then we did Clover. um And that was again, sort of just born out of like one the idea but two we had a really great manager return so someone who'd worked with his previously um and he came back to help out while I had been at home and then had himself really enjoyed being back in venue um and we're really lucky to have good people like he's been with us for sort of eight years on and off um
00:35:12
Speaker
as of a few of our our staff, some of our chefs and our kitchen hands and stuff like that. So yeah, I felt like um there was a capacity to do this now with a little bit less of me having to be hands on. Like I've now stepped back enough that um with the right person who understands like how I operate and what our expectation is, it's like when you're in line with people who who want the same things. And, you know, he was at the tap house for a long time and helped build that community. And it's like he understands that you know, hospitality. is it It's all in the detail and the service and it's like you can put, as long as you do that well, you can put it in lots of different situations and some things can change and be slightly different venue to venue and I'm sure things will be slightly different at Clover to how I would have done it how Aaron will do it, um but the overall ethos of like you know the the the customer first, and he's very hospitality driven. and i and I think you have to enjoy that, um and I still do. I still love being behind the bar. I still love chatting away to people. um I was working at Clover this weekend, have done since we've opened. and
00:36:20
Speaker
it's nice to meet people I think it's nice for them to meet me as well and like to you know to be part of the venues even if I'm not in all of them all of the time I don't know that um I need to have an understanding ah of what they are as well and and so that's been really nice um but yeah I have no great business plan I have no great plan in general um I guess there's a sense that we now have a good team and I want to be able to support them. Something that's born out of having the third venue is having the ability to have a little bit extra flex, so like we can have a chef that we can put over three venues, so then it means team can take holidays
00:37:00
Speaker
better planned and nights off and all that type of stuff. So we're trying to look at the benefits of like it no longer being um myself or Jarrah that drop into the business to allow that to happen because if we are now having to spend a bit more time overseas and coming back and forth, so that excuse me, that's allowed us to think about that and be like, OK, we've a team across the three venues of about 35. Like we owe a lot of our success to them and and we want them to feel like their jobs are secure in this market and you know that they will stay with us. So I guess for me, the way to make that happen is is to try and keep everybody is as happy as you can within reason. So I guess that's the one that's the sort of the
00:37:44
Speaker
the drive and force but behind the third venue for me really was, that'll allow us just to have that little bit more cover that it's not just um one or the other, like to know you here or there. so yeah And so far, um you know hopefully that's gonna pan out for everybody. um Yeah, because like I said, do without a great team, like you don't have anything and we're we're lucky to be able to not be at the venue and know that it still operates the same as it would when we were at the venue. yeah you you you talk about you know the there i'm sorry to hear about your father but they're going overseas and spending time away from the business yeah i think that challenge of how do you kind of ensure that your team in charge and and sort of working the floor are able to deliver that same kind of experience that came same kind of service that you know you're known for and customers expect yes i
00:38:34
Speaker
Is it really just down to the the key manager, the staff you've had experience with them, or is there somewhere that you kind of, I guess, codify that experience or documented, or how do you train people to deliver what you want them to deliver while you're not on the bar? Yeah. um I mean, I think
Staff Retention and Workplace Culture
00:38:50
Speaker
the the continuation of of the service style, I guess, was down, I mean, in part to a few key people, so to the the key management people that were in the in the venues at the time.
00:39:01
Speaker
um I think, again, like staff retention, because we'd always, um you know, tried to put our team first and we'd went through COVID with most of the team here at the Woods and tried to look after everybody as best we can, that I definitely felt that I got that back when I was away. So everybody stepped up and was just like, I mean, I literally phoned from home and said, I'm not coming back. I don't know when I'm coming back. And we'd planned for me to be away for four to five weeks. I was away for nine months. um Yeah.
00:39:29
Speaker
um I guess that we previous to that um we had been training everybody. I'd been slowly giving away little bits and you know letting people buy beers, letting other people pick the wine, cocktails. and and And I guess it was like we sort of tried to spread that load across a few people um so that like you know someone was the person, the go-to person for cocktails. um We've got like Steve in the bottle shop so that could help everybody with wine selection or training. and And I guess just trying to identify what people were good at what things so then then they had to go to. um And they still had each other, I guess, as well, the the tap house in the woods to and to talk about and try and resolve some stuff. um And I guess for me, instead of being in the venue and sometimes just inherently
00:40:13
Speaker
knowing how things were tracking. um I guess the only real version I had was to like dive into the numbers. um And it probably actually my accountant when I came back was like, geez, what happened while you were away? And I was just like, I started paying attention to everything I was spending.
00:40:28
Speaker
it Do you have anything to do? Yeah, yeah. And it turns out um I was the person responsible for spending the most money. Yeah, yeah. It's a surprise, surprise. um Because I would just be like, I want this thing. I'm going to buy this thing. um I guess the the team were maybe not as demanding as I was. um So it was just a different mode of operation. But I guess the trust that I haven't had a good team, we didn't turn over any managers while we were away or any key um part of the team chefs.
00:40:58
Speaker
um ah so we might had one or two casuals leave as they do you know going traveling doing the thing but all the key people remained in our business um we switched a few around so hunter that was at the woods is at the tap house so we had a couple of changes and where people were um running the woods is a big job it takes a lot of energy um so sometimes you need a little recharge from that but we try and see that and be like okay um he's such a great asset, he's such a great people person, it's like okay you might not want to be here but we don't want him to go somewhere else and I guess that's key to us to try and be like what's going to keep everybody with us for as long as possible um and they'll get to a time where you know people just need a change and we understand that we're never happy about it but you understand that but um I think that's been probably my biggest driver for such a long time was it was staff attention because
00:41:48
Speaker
then you're not starting from scratch every single time or it's not a whole new team like you might have one or two people swapping in and out of every you know year or so but if you can keep that core group um and I think that's just being aware that everybody has lives outside of their jobs and and trying to accommodate that as best you can.
00:42:06
Speaker
And it does come back and serve if you well. like It sounds like you've nailed that trio of good staff, good culture, good communication, yeah um so that it can run when when you're not around. Yeah, and and surprisingly run well. so yeah i like Well, not surprisingly, that's all right, but I guess I thought I was so instrumental. And then I guess it' it's accepting that you've done a good job. I guess it's like being a parent and your kids go off and they, you know, be good adults. and There must be like a sense of like, I want them to want me and need me, but actually they didn't. You've taught them all the things that they needed to know. If they needed you forever, you didn't do a great job. Yeah. And I definitely felt like that when I came back. I mean, that's not to say I didn't walk around being like, hey, what's this?
00:42:46
Speaker
yeah I guess there wouldn't be um I wouldn't be the boss if I wasn't finding some sort of thing. But um but I mean, they all did an amazing job. And and we're lucky that we've got a ah good community of regulars that you know message in me and tell me what everyone's doing a good job. The amount of messages I got from regulars to say that, like team are doing a great job. And and when I came back, they're all saying the same thing as well, um which is really nice. And I guess that's the ah another bonus of the suburban bar. like dont People live here, this is their local, they want it to do well. And if things weren't great, like they'll let you know as well like before it gets out of control, oh maybe this thing's happening, or maybe you know we haven't had new beers in the fridge. They're not shy in coming forward, but that's a good thing, that keeps you you know moving forward and aware of things. um
00:43:34
Speaker
So yeah, it's um without that really you know strong team that we're happy to be here and work together and and work for each other as well, like not even working for me, like you know they were working for each other while we were gone and pulling together and they did ah an amazing job. Yeah. Great. um Well, how about we take a little break now and when we come back, we can talk about some of the lessons you've learned as queen of the suburbs. We've got the crown.
Bintani Brewery Boosters Introduction
00:44:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Bintani Brewery Boosters. I'm here with Sam Bethune, a technical sales guru for Bintani, um who've been long-term supporters of the Crafty Pint. um Sam, you're here to, I guess, give us and give brewers some tips on how to run more sustainable, more efficient breweries. um This week we're sort of focusing on brew how efficiency. um I guess starting at the start, like what are the simplest first steps brewers can take to make their their brewery more efficient?
00:44:33
Speaker
So I think at the start, we talk about brew house efficiency. If you don't know what it is, look it up to start. ah But knowing what you know and what you don't know, for me, that all comes back to calibration. In the brew house, there's a lot of things that are important, particularly pH, temperature, time, that sort of thing. We've all got pretty accurate watches, ah but definitely make sure your pH meters are calibrated regularly, your temperature probes in your various vessels, your flow meters ah are reading what they should be.
00:44:59
Speaker
you might think you're doing the right thing but if you're not checking that that data is accurate are you setting yourself up for trouble and and why is that so what why is that you know gonna either you know cost time or money down the line ah so definitely for for ph in the mash for example being too high or too low can have a big difference on your extract efficiency later on ah through your loitering steps. In the same way, temperature of your mash, you might be hitting particular temperatures to extract the right amount of sugars from your grain and that sort of thing. A degree or two too high and low can add those percentages in that you're gonna miss out on at at the outside of the brew house. Another good thing in there is always to taste your spent grain and malt and be measuring your final extracts. If you're not doing that or your malt tastes sweet after it's ah come out of the loiter ton, then a few things to look at.
00:45:45
Speaker
Okay, and at the other end of the scale with molts, tell us about the importance of mill gaps in, I guess, maximising efficiency. the the The real sexy topic of mill gaps. So, malt has a general sort of size, different supplies, different supply regions, different grains are all a little bit different. Generally, on a small scale, we keep our mills the same and don't worry about it too much.
00:46:05
Speaker
In the same way as some of the brew house side, that gap can determine whether we've got the right the right crush of our grist. Two cores, we're not going to get the extract out, we're paying for the potential sugar that's being left behind. On the other side we crush it too finely, we have loitering problems, we get too much polyphenol, we get haze issues and that sort of thing as well.
00:46:24
Speaker
So, particularly year on year, or if there's any change in in supplier, be it through um the distributor or wherever else, make sure you have a look at that grist, even an eye and visual, or having a look at your ordering times can really help you help you know whether that needs to be adjusted. I guess for brewers and for drinkers I like, they get excited about the latest hop variety talking about flavor and aroma, but I guess this focus on data, on sort of the boring numbers, like it it is important in running a successful sustainable brewing business. massively, particularly with numbers in the brew house side if you've got multiple brewers or shifts or writing down and trying to figure out what's gone wrong. All right, in a particular brew, making sure you've got your your times and temperatures validated. All those little points that you put in on your brew sheet that you think are important, if they're not needed, take them out. But if they are needed, make sure you check it between brewers
00:47:12
Speaker
and that there's consistency there. At a brew house level, that can be that difference between timing and ah making sure yeah each beer is out the way it should be.
Challenges of Suburban Bars
00:47:21
Speaker
There you go, excellent. And if anyone wants to pick your brains a bit more, um how can they sort of find find you or find out, you know, I guess some tips about running a more efficient brewery. ah Yeah, so more than we're going to hit us up at Bintani, yeah just general sales at bintani.com.au will make its way to me very quickly. Otherwise, but all great resources online. We've all got the internet at the moment and plenty of ah plenty of good places to start. Awesome. Now, thank you for that. Thanks very much.
00:47:55
Speaker
Okay, we're back. um let's Let's go to school. Let's hear about some of the things that you've learned um from your time with these wonderful venues. So the first thing I wanted to ask was, I've seen some suburban bars come and go, like it must be a hard gig. What are some of the things that are really hard about running a bar in the suburbs as opposed to the bustling inner city? And kind of how have you how have you managed that?
00:48:19
Speaker
Yeah, I guess like the the hard part I guess about running stuff in the suburbs is is it's the same people you're trying to attract um back time and time again. So I guess there's a couple of different models that you can you can go for. I guess you can either be somewhere where you're driven on price and people are coming to you because of that, which I guess is like the bigger venues like the LH pumps and all that type of stuff.
00:48:43
Speaker
um So you can be driven on that. um For us, I guess it was um driven on it just feeling like you're local um in Scotland and and I'm sure the other parts of the world as well. It's like we have such a culture of you know bars being like a living room, like a drop in and everybody knowing everybody. um And that's where I cut my teeth in bars. I worked in a bar where and if I didn't, what if I couldn't name probably 90% of the people in there, I wasn't doing a good job because it was just like, I guess that's the key and that's the difference and and people feeling welcome and you remembering them and their kids and what the you know what's going on in their lives because I guess that has to be the attraction. There has to be like ah an element of
00:49:25
Speaker
warmth and comfortableness to come back time and time again, because it's the same. you know In essence, we're giving them the same experience over and over again, which which sounds easy in a way, but again, you know consistency is is hard. like you know Consistency with staff, consistency with product, consistency on and how your venue looks. I think sometimes, um I'm sure the team would say I could be repetitive with some of that stuff. um i take um I worked in retail as well for a time and I guess you know that thing of retail detail like so for me it's like table numbers are straight like the caddies have you know the same amount of napkins and knives and forks all those little things that I guess
00:50:07
Speaker
um Maybe some people, and and if it's their first time in hospitality as a suburban venue, they might think can be forgiven. like that people like The standards shouldn't be as high. And I guess for me, that's the thing that I've tried to instill into the team is just like you our standard of presentation for everything, whether it's glassware, whether it's the venue, whether it's yourself, um should be the same.
00:50:31
Speaker
okay, our rent might be marginally cheaper, or was at one point, than city venues, so our prices might be a little less, but people are spending good money. Their expectation is is the same, and I think sometimes when I go into other suburban venues, I think maybe some of that's lost, that they think they can be a little less.
00:50:52
Speaker
um And I think if you want people to be coming time and time again and spending what is really spare dollars now, because everything is allocated somewhere, so it's just those one or two you know spare ones that they've got, it's given them that level of service that they would get if they were in in ah in a city bar or a valley bar or wherever you know we think the peak is.
00:51:15
Speaker
um When I was talking with Matt from Broosky, he mentioned to me that um he thinks during COVID, everyone nested, everyone made their house a bit nicer, yeah which means when we came out of that, yeah actually drinking at home was no longer kind of a crappy second rate option. Everyone's house was a bit of a nicer place to hang out at. I think you've kind of captured that idea that you now need to be even more cut above.
00:51:37
Speaker
There needs to be a reason for people to come in. Definitely. yeah I think that's it. There needs to be like ah a driving force. and i think that's ah yeah Like I said, it's a personality. it's like the The staff have been engaging. There needs to be like another level. like No longer are they just coming for a drink. like you know it' it's an experience and I think you've got to take that seriously um and for us it's like welcoming everybody back and remembering everybody and just trying to create that environment and like I touched on previously like staff retention is such a massive part because if I change over my staff too quickly then my regulars it doesn't feel like home like if they don't know who the people are like if they can't you know
00:52:17
Speaker
say by name, you know, there's Hunter or Benton or Griff or whoever it is, um then they it doesn't it doesn't feel the same to them. it doesnt You want it to feel like a little part of their home and that they have a little bit of like you know ownership and they feel like they can do what they you know they do when they come here. um So that's been really key. And I guess we've got a few key people in each venue where they're like the trainer in a certain things. So for instance, here at the woods, we've got Benton and he's, um you know,
00:52:47
Speaker
Cocktail King and again, you know, worked in some of the the best venues in the city. So it has really high standards. And that was something that we wanted to like put on to everybody and just be like, you know, it goes out with Benton and it looks like this. Everybody's got to make it look like this. Everybody's got to know those things. And that we're not just, you know, pouring a beer and slapping it up or some wine or what whatever it is. But there's care involved in that. Yeah. Do you find it's I mean, I think the hospitality workforce out there has changed massively since COVID, obviously, and a lot of probably very talented people have have maybe left the industry, particularly in the kitchens and so on, and haven't come back. And, you know, I think that's probably a big challenge for any brewery, particularly in regional or suburban areas, running a venue, you know, is it about sort of finding that young talent, those new people coming through and
00:53:43
Speaker
you've really got to foster it or create a pathway for them or a passion for that industry. Is that something you're finding? is yeah Yeah, definitely. I mean, there was a time where it was very hard. I guess there's been a little swing back where it's become a little bit easier. I guess something that probably stood us and in good stead was, you know, we have a good track record. And I guess it's been mindful, like I've touched on before, that people have lives outside of their jobs. And and it's like, yeah, you want them to be, um I think that's probably the the thing for me that's changed with people is is like,
00:54:14
Speaker
maybe when I was younger that work was first and it's like you know I had to give up if like you know if I wanted that job I had to give up everything else like that's no longer the case and that's a good thing you know that people like life should come first before work um so it's like trying to get that balance and I think if you can create a place where they feel like they can you know have time off or nights off or stuff like that um but then also that they're a team that work together as well um that's key as well. like We've got great kitchen teams where like they, again, work for each other. Then you give them room to be like, do you guys want to do something? So there's like for me, there's an element that I control. And you know on the menu, we just went through it with opening Clover. I said to the chefs, 50%, this is what we've got to do. like These are our core things. like This is where we you know make margin. We know we keep customers happy um and that ah we can make money on.
00:55:05
Speaker
the rest of the stuff, you can we can it can be a little bit more adventurous. like We don't have to make the same margin. I think it's finding that balance, because if you're always driving away their ability to be part of it or contribute,
00:55:19
Speaker
then I think you aren't going to keep staff that are engaged. Because if you're like, you have to do this, and we have to buy from this person, and we have to sell it for this amount of money. And sometimes, you know, you want to do a dish and it just doesn't cut the margin. But it doesn't mean the dish necessarily has to go if you can stack it up against other things. And I think that's the lesson that I've tried to teach everybody is just like, okay, we've got these things that we can make money on and keep up a good margin on and keep our customers happy. and Then these are can be the changing things and we don't they don't have to be as profitable but because it brings in an element of excitement for the customer and for them like you know how to try a new dish and bring it on. and I think that's a hard thing, I guess, to keep evolving. Sometimes it works easier than others and sometimes it takes more energy, I guess, just depending on what's happening in in venues. But i think I try to always think about if I was them and I was working there,
00:56:12
Speaker
um you know What did I enjoy about working in past places and try and keep that at the forefront of my
Balancing Staff and Business Needs
00:56:18
Speaker
mind? that you know it's It's often hard because sometimes the team can be so dedicated that they put in more hours. um but Like when I was away, I'd look at rosters and I'd be like, don't be picking this shift up. Do something else. You're going to burn yourself out and and trying to say it from the outside back. But they'd be like, well, you do it. And I'd be like, that doesn't mean I expect you guys to do it. So it's kind of like a hard um a hard balance. But I think in terms of keeping staff engaged, you've got to give them something. you You've got to give them ownership of something. yeah It almost sounds obvious, but it's just treating people like humans. Yeah. Like instead of just, oh, you're just, you're a replaceable.
00:56:52
Speaker
be a dispenser. yeah Like actually your contributions matter. Your relationships here matter. yeah I care about how you're going. yeah um I want you to to thrive or to be creative or or whatever. Yeah. you You just want everyone to be happy because in the long run, um that's better for everybody. It's better for me. um And I guess like there's an element of that that is, you know, it's better for my business if everybody is happy, but then also it's just better for me. It's better to come into a place where people are like, yeah, yeah. That shows when you can take those nine months and yeah after your family in Scotland yeah and it's a you know it must give you a great deal of pride to be able to know that your team can run things without you and you can do it to the level that you want. Yeah and I think for them as well like to be like you know yeah we can do this and you know where they're they're all capable. it It's been a good time for everybody yeah. yeah
00:57:42
Speaker
Um, so we've talked to all at the hospitality side of this, but the woods does also have this bottle shop yeah attached to it. How has that been? Is retail and hospitality, are they entirely different beasts where you're buying differently or approaching them differently? They are a little bit for us. And and I think our bottle shops probably different to some other people's bottle shops and maybe not in the sense of offering, but maybe how we look at it. We look at our bottle shop a little bit like a gift store, like, you know, you've been through the venue and you'll get something on the way out type thing. um it's It's small, I guess, you know, um it's a little bit of a passion project, I guess. we um During Covid, when we could do take away, I went crazy with my Canon machine and, you know,
00:58:26
Speaker
canned my heart out. and And we saw that there was a market for that and then the space became available. It wasn't something that was on my radar, um but Steve, who is a local to the area and worked with us in the bar just for fun. He just did a couple of shifts in the afternoon, I think, just these kids who'd just gone to school. um But he's, you know, just got lots of experience, worked for the big guys previous and in his previous life um and And we just sort of said, do you want to have a bottle shop? And he was like, yeah. And I was like, cool, then it's yours in essence, because I didn't have I mean, I've experienced in other segments of retail, but not in that. And although I enjoy wine, my knowledge is, you know, not anywhere compared to what his it is. And and and again, i I guess it's fine in someone who's that's their passion. um So we sort of built it around that. And it's very much, you know, Steve's bottle shop. And I got back working there as well. And she's like passionate about the beer came from scratch. And
00:59:21
Speaker
So I guess we're building that balance back up. um yeah So for us, it's um it's a good on top like for us, so it's ah it helped to utilise this space. Again, it's not really something like some of the other venues, like I guess Bursky really went into the bottle shops and that's become like a big focus for them with the beer dealers.
00:59:42
Speaker
um I guess ours is like a little bit more fun. um We definitely buy differently there and it allows us to try different things as well. So we can have like a wider range um we can and then we can pull some of that into the bar. so like as you know things have evolved in the woods. I guess we've dialed it back from maybe the range that we once had at the mill. But then that allows us still to like take a little bit and try stuff. um We do find that people buy um to take home a bit more adventurous range than what they do in venue, um which is um it it has its pros and cons. So like
01:00:17
Speaker
We try ah just like different styles of wine and we'll try them behind the bar. But I guess there's that people just want that familiarity when they're coming in and we'll take it home and try it. And then maybe we can like we slowly add some of that back into the bar. So I think it allows us to have a wider range. um But yeah, I guess for us, it's more of like a fun addition rather than something that I'm i not. I mean, never say never, but bottle shops is um isn't my passion. um Hospitality is my passion. Like I enjoy. I much more enjoy that. Yeah.
01:00:47
Speaker
Yeah, great. Gillian, I reckon we've probably got a a fair few breweries hopefully listening into this podcast. um A lot of those breweries, you know they they come into the business because they they want to make beer, they want to make great quality beer, but they maybe don't have that hospitality background or experience. And and now they're you know they're opening their tap rooms, they're trying to create that experience with a customer. you know if If you could share two or three things that just, here's here's what you should keep top of mind, what what would that be?
01:01:16
Speaker
Um, hospitality. I mean, probably first of all hire someone that has an experience. That's always a key, but if you're going to do it yourself, um, I guess it's like finding that passion. It's like, you know, it's just thinking about that you're someone's, you know.
01:01:32
Speaker
special day or event or joy so it's like you've got to be like that you've got to bring that energy you've got to have that vibe and it's like i think it's not enough just to be like we've got good beer or that a place looks looks good or whatever it is it's like we all know you walk into vent a venue it's like you pick up the energy of how the people are are working and and i think that's key so it's just like that's and the number one thing is is like you've got to want to be behind the bar you've got to want to be serving the customers and I think if you don't enjoy that, then you shouldn't do that like it because it's it's it's going to take away from you and it's going to take away from their experience. so I think you've really got to be like, I i enjoy this. and I think you can find joy in the fact that you've made a good product and therefore you've got a different story to tell. so That gives them like i guess a unique selling
01:02:20
Speaker
um proposition that we don't have here. um and And I think then, again, like we've mentioned before, it's like it's all the details. It's like people come in and it's like sometimes they don't know what's wrong with the place, but it's like I guess you've got to be critical of your own place and go over that and just be really like, again, does this feel welcome? And then are all the light bulbs on? Like, you know, is the floor swept? Like there's all just those little details that I just think sometimes you go into places and it's like they get caught up in all the other jobs that are happening, which is very easy to happen and I can only imagine in a brewery is limitless, they might have stuff to do. um But that tap rim is a reflection of what their brewery is, so I guess that then translates into that's the one percent is isn't that. It is, it always is, yeah. I mean, I'll be like the forks are facing the wrong way, the table numbers are skewed with, and it's like, again, the guys will be like, oh, does it really matter? But it's like when you add all those, if all those things up, then you walk into a venue that just doesn't feel right or look loved. And especially someone like a brewery, like don't be wrong, forks facing the right way, quite all by all means. carry
01:03:25
Speaker
But as someone who you know is on Instagram or taking photos of breweries, yeah um it's really easy for them to be like, oh, one of the tables has yeah a big thing of cleaner on top of it because they were just cleaning something. yeah yeah That table is covered with all the plastic from when they were canning that they had to rip off the palette or whatever. yeah um And of course we've all got into, or anyone who got into the craft beer scene 10 years ago, yeah the idea of just stepping into a functioning beer factory. yeah um But now we are much more, um customers are much more focused on, is this a nice venue? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is, it is just an energy and that's where your people and your team are just key. Like, you know, I just, you gotta have people that that's what they enjoy doing. um And, you know, I'm not sure that that's always the same people. So I guess it's just, as a business, like opening your eyes and being like, you know, who is the best person to do this thing? Like the bottle shop, I'm not the best person to be buying the stock for that bottle shop, therefore that's not a job that I do. um I think I've learned over time that, you know, there's there's a lot to run in business and it's like a a lot of it is acknowledging your skills, but then other people's skills as well to be like, they're a better person for them. um And then
01:04:38
Speaker
unfortunately it's just running the numbers. It's like it's, you know, like any small business or medium-sized business with some of the breweries probably, it's like you just got to constantly be on top of that and and know what's happening in your business, know where your money's being spent, um have a budget. for Like when I first started, um like I hate to think of that I didn't have that, like I just went went into, you know, it was a different time so I guess there was Money coming in from events and you just spent as you went and we did the things um that's definitely changed. um
01:05:11
Speaker
I think having a a good team of like, you know, bookkeeper and accounting, knowing how to work zero and having a budget, like, it sounds basic, but sometimes I'll talk to other small bars or even small breweries and and I'll be like, do you use this in zero? And they'll be like, no. And I'm like, how do you know where you are? Like, if you're not marking yourself against something, you can very quickly get out of control.
01:05:35
Speaker
um I guess without really realising sometimes as well. um It's nice to have all the the fun beers and the nice speakers and all that type of stuff. But at the end of the day, you know, I'm responsible for people's wedgies and going home and and all that type of stuff. And I guess that's the the kicker now with having like the bigger team at the mill. There was joe three of us in the bar, two in the kitchen. It was like, yeah, everything's fine. You'll be grand. um but will But it just all worked out. And I guess now it's it's being a grown up and realizing that, you know, unfortunately, um you got to do those reconciles every morning. And we'll see cheap yeah, that's it. Just knowing knowing your numbers is key. Yeah. And what's your, what's your one hope for, I was going to say beer going forward, but let's say Brisbane beer going forward.
01:06:22
Speaker
Oh, I'd like to get back to some sort of community thing. um I guess it's been hard over the last five years because so much has happened from when I closed the mill um in the world, you know obviously COVID and Bruce Vegas ending. And then also for me being out in the suburbs. So I guess a part of me originally thought it was maybe just me out of the loop and the loop was still there, unfortunately. The loop is gone. The loop is gone. yeah um I'd like to think that there's a version of something that can come back for us. um I've often thought about, you know, just like a basic little like beer map trail that just starts to involve everybody. And I guess maybe getting back to something like the pint of origin where maybe it rotates through different venues so or different breweries. So it's like instead of being the same,
01:07:10
Speaker
six or seven venues each year. could like I guess it's acknowledging that maybe there isn't enough customer like for that to support 40 venues, which there now there is probably more and in Brisbane. So maybe it's a different version of that, but still like a community where we could support each other. um Because it does feel does feel very different um yeah to how it was, but i'd I'd like to think that there's a time where we can get back to that. and You still see elements of it, um of people working together, but I guess the whole premise of Bruce Vegas was that you had to work with someone else. like That was actually a key requirement of the events. like You had to work with like another small business or brewery. so I think that was a really part pioneering um concept. It wasn't just a solo venue, like doing doing something for them. um
01:07:59
Speaker
so Yeah, I mean i think there's there's good times ahead. um It's a hard market and I feel the pain of the breweries and that's a hard one to negotiate but like for us as somebody that's buying beer and trying to decide who you support.
01:08:15
Speaker
um because there's so many options and and you can see, you know, people in pain, keg prices dropping and then that's a worry because, you know, it's not sustainable and and there's there's definitely concern. I guess we just got to stand by the people that we've, I guess, always supported and we can work off that model um and try and and and help out where we can if we think someone is really in need. ah Yeah, but for for for the time being, I think hopefully the next year or two we'll we'll see people through.
01:08:53
Speaker
crafty pit podcast is produced and edited by matt hoffman you can get all your beer related news and reviews on the crafty client website craftyinet dot com and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our social We wouldn't be able to produce the podcast or the website, events, or festivals we run without the support of the beer industry, whether that's suppliers, bars, breweries, or bottle shops. If you'd like to support the show or partner with the Crafty Pine in other ways, please reach out to Craig via the details in the show notes. And if you're a beer lover who'd like to support what we do, you can join our exclusive club for beer lovers, the Crafty Cabal. Visit craftycabal.com for more. And until next time, drink good beer.