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Making A Positive Impact With Beer
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What does it mean to be a sustainable business or to brew in a sustainable manner? Can beer really do good, or are such claims just there to make marketing departments feel better about themselves? And, if so, how can they have a positive impact on the world around them, from their local community to the drinkers who buy their beers?
Such questions – and helping people find the right answers to them – have occupied James Perrin throughout his career in beer. It's one that started with Lion in New Zealand, brought him to Stone & Wood in the midst of their rapid growth, and continues to this day in many ways.
He's still involved in a Northern Rivers brewery too, albeit a rather smaller one. He left Stone & Wood after the sale to Lion / Kirin, and these days is part of the team running Spangled Drongo, a brewery which makes a donation from every beer sold to help protect the natural habitat around them.
He also works with businesses looking to be better global citizens in and outside beer, both in Australia and overseas, and has helped some – most recently Jervis Bay Brewing Co – gain B Corp status.
James is a wealth of knowledge on all things sustainability and has developed a model of six ways in which businesses can look to have a positive impact. He joined us on the show to explain his approach, discuss various programs and certifications in this space, and to highlight examples from the beer world that have impressed him.
He talks passionately about the importance of authenticity in making connections with consumers, and is a firm believer that indie beer businesses occupy a role within communities through which they can make changes for the better and inspire others to follow suit.
The chat with James starts at 16:17
Prior to that we welcomed another guest, who joined James for the preamble. With Will making his way back to Australia from Bali, Benedict Kennedy-Cox stepped up to the oche.
Benny has been writing for The Crafty Pint for a few years now, often combining beer with another passion of his: travel. He was in Melbourne so dropped into the studio to discuss the week's news, share some of his favourite experiences on the road, including getting abused by a waiter in Köln, and offer insight into the sustainably-minded businesses he's written about for us.
There also a heads-up for our forthcoming lager-centric event at The Wheaty.
Relevant links:
Going Green: Sustainable Brewing: https://craftypint.com/news/1767/going-green-sustainable-brewing
Spangled Drongo Brewing: https://craftypint.com/brewery/865/spangled-drongo-brewery
Jervis Bay Secure B Corp Status: https://craftypint.com/news/3588/better-every-day-jervis-bay-become-a-b-corp
James Perrin's website: https://www.jamesperrin.com.au/
Ryefield Hops' Certifiably Sustainable Growth: https://craftypint.com/news/3376/ryefield-hops-certifiably-sustainable-growth
Frogs Hollow's Off-Grid Brewery: https://craftypint.com/news/3590/going-green-frogs-hollows-off-grid-brewery
Mitta Mitta Brewing: https://craftypint.com/brewery/398/mitta-mitta-brewing-co
Ten Lessons From Ten Years: Wolf of the Willows: https://craftypint.com/news/3614/ten-lessons-from-ten-years-wolf-of-the-willows
Planned vs Rogue: https://www.youtube.com/@PlannedvsRogue
Upcoming lager event at The Wheaty: https://craftypint.com/event/13508/exploring-the-ever-larger-world-of-lager
Sun Tap Decals: https://www.suntapdecals.com.au/
To find out more about supporting the show or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact [email protected].
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Transcript
Guest Host Introduction
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Crafty Pint podcast. I'm James and with me this week is very much not Will. Benny. Not Will. Yes, so Will, um as regular watchers will know, was in has been in Bali. um He did actually call into the show last week from Bali, but this week we've given him the week off.
Benny's Background and Travel Insights
00:00:24
Speaker
And um Benny, I guess regular readers of the site may well have read some of your stuff over the last few years, but Jordan, tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:00:32
Speaker
Sure, thanks for the intro James. ah My name's Benny, I am a travel and beer rider. I take care of a lot of the Sydney stuff from Crafty Pie, which is where I'm based. It's a wonderful, beautiful upcoming village by the harbour. Check it out if you're ever up in the state of New South Wales and I've been doing that for Gosh, three or four years now. So actually it coincides with the time that your Penrith Panthers have won every flag as well. There you go. Oh, yes, that's nice. Yes, every one. Yes. Yeah, for it that's that's crazy. I couldn't believe it. And I got to write the Penrith and Blue Mountains Crafty Quill, which is where I'm from originally. So that was a very special. Yeah. And it was good timing. You happen to be in Melbourne this week while Will's not around. So I thought you'd come in and have a bit of a chat. And and with with the crafty stuff, obviously you've been writing about beers as well, but a lot of travel stuff.
00:01:23
Speaker
um In fact you got another travel piece coming up soon on the south coast of New South Wales Which is a place you seem to have a bit of a an affinity for you seem to be down there with your partner Katie a lot Yeah, yeah, we a few years ago Went down there after the bushfires in between covered lockdowns in New South Wales. We made a series called Benny censure which was Just going to all the great places that make beer in the south coast. And this is four years ago. There's double the venues that there were now. So we started off in Wollongong. We ended up in Pambula where they have long stocking brewery where you get the big 10 or 20 beer paddle between two.
00:02:08
Speaker
And that was an amazing experience. The people down there are just so incredibly friendly and the beer is amazing. They make almost everything themselves down there and the oysters, all the food are so good. So yeah, I do have an affinity. yeah and And now you can sort of make your way almost hopping from brewery to brewery pretty much the entire way down the coast.
00:02:31
Speaker
oh absolutely you never have to go more than half a day without a beer yeah every day yeah you can have a good i mean we shot over i think eight nights but yeah you could do it over oh two weeks or you know less than that if you had to speedrun if you were driving from sydney to melbourne the long way you could have a great time and that series was what got you in contact with me actually and i think you interviewed me to talk about the series Benny Sencha and that I convinced you to give me a job writing for you. I sent you back down the coast walk three or four times to put listings together do crawls or that kind of thing as well. Yeah I mean twice at least this year so yeah I mean it's an area I love going to.
Sustainable Practices in Breweries
00:03:14
Speaker
and considering we have our main guest later on today is James Perrin who's a sustainability guru who we'll get to in a bit. A couple of the trips you've done down there I've had a song a song ah strong sustainability focus back at the start of the year you went and hung out at Ryfield Hopps had a meal in in there in between the binds and then you've been back since to Frogs Hollow. Do you want to tell us a bit about those two experiences? because I think that's one of the things that we're really keen to showcase as much as we can in the beer world is the sort of steps that people are taking, whether they're producers or or um brewers, to actually be better global citizens? Yeah, sure. I mean, Ryfield is a family business. They make some of the best hops in this country, and they have such a community atmosphere to it, seeing all the different brewers, like you had
00:04:04
Speaker
small brewers like Frogs Hollow who hadn't even officially really opened their brewery yet and then you had people from Four Pines and Stone and Wood so they have such a broad appeal and Jade the the farmer there really taught me a lot about how to smell hops properly that was a sort of a bucket list item for me that was that was really cool to me yeah yeah and also didn't they set up like just a long table between the binds and had this amazing meal and like tour of the facilities as well yeah Yeah, it was so i was so nice. Three different types of meat. It was absolutely delicious. That's where I met the Frogs Hollow yeah guys as well, and Mitchell and Richard. They were so nice that I knew when they opened their brewery officially, when I was down there riding the South Coast Crawl.
00:04:54
Speaker
I spoke to a vico plus extra bits yes that where goes yeah the far south coast ah I knew that I had to look into what they were doing because every bottle shop I went to which is always a great place to get tips for the crawls they spoke so highly of Frogs Hollow always mentioning the environmental angle that they have and what's really impressive about them and Ryfields too is that they're not doing environment to to like offset their conscience like it's always at the core of what they're doing from the beginning like Ryfields are getting certified organic they didn't have to change anything they just had to have the person show up and
00:05:35
Speaker
It's interesting actually towards the end of the chat with James Perrin but people catch up on later he talks about that going you know people might want to get get into sort of sustainability change for the business and you know it can be a good thing for the brand because by the end of the day what matters most is that you do these things with authenticity and that it's really who you are and what you're about and that's what it certainly sounds like. So Frog's Hollow just to sort of summarize off grid in like this beautiful like sort of you know it almost looks like Hobbiton or something like that these sort of little rolling hills. there It is a bit Hobbitish yes yes and they are the hobbits yeah it's brood yeah by the hobbits or maybe you know elves or the the magic ones I think yeah that I don't know it's been a while but yeah
00:06:17
Speaker
that It is very, they use tank water yeah in their bees, 100% tank water, and they are innovating in terms of the solutions that they use for making the water safe, the waste water, to go back into the system again. yeah they Every decision they make, it's interesting because it is based on business over sort of what's cheaper and more effective for them, but always using an environmental solution to get that done.
Benny's European Beer Travels
00:06:46
Speaker
yeah And in terms of, I guess I'll throw this one at you, like you've done a fair bit of travel in the last few world last few years especially, often with a beery sort of um edge to it, highlights, either whether within Australia or on on on the road.
00:07:02
Speaker
Oh, wow. Okay. Great question. Well, you can see this out my, this is my camera, my partner, Katie and I are series planned versus rogue on YouTube. I'm rogue. She's planned. She goes out with a planned day and I go out with no plan. And then we see who wins at the end. And I'd say the two best beer ones were in our episodes in Antwerp and Cologne, which are episodes three and four respectively. Antwerp, I go out on, oh, it's got to be, it's maybe my favorite place to drink beer in the world. We went to Coolminator, which is owned by an old couple and you got to buzz and say, I want to taste beer.
00:07:42
Speaker
or they won't let you in and I saw them turn someone away. In their language or in English it's fine. No, English is fine. Yeah, they're all really good. I'm not going to ask you to say it in Flemish. Yeah, no. And yeah, they let you in. We had a bush Noel aged nine years on tap and you know, nice cantillon and we went back and I had my first ever Westflederin, which was really something. And I would say to go the complete opposite way though is Kolsch in Cologne. it's It's so much fun and it's you know it's like a two or three hour train ride away from Antwerp and you go from some really diverse beer coming out of bottles to an absolute monoculture that is on tap.
00:08:25
Speaker
And it's it's such a other Germans don't drink a colch. They think it's a half beer. They think it's a lazy, boring beer without enough flavor. And it's almost a scam sort of because you you think I'll just have a few because they're little 200 mils. And then before, you know, you've you've drank a Steinsworth, but you're still thirsty. And I love the food that comes alongside with it as well. It's a great yeah those two would be my favorite. What's interesting as well actually in the last month Wildflower at their I guess sort of reworked home with Mountain Culture in Merrickville the village they've introduced Colch serving so they've now got a whole bunch of stangers at Stange I think they're the classes and they started doing that approach where they'll just keep bringing them to your table and just marking how many you've had as just a bit of a I guess
00:09:16
Speaker
to add to the experience, you know the experience of enjoying beer, which I think is great. We've talked a fair bit recently on the show about things like putting hand pumps in because it adds to sort of the theatre of the beer. And I think that whole thing with the Colch as well, if you bring around these little thin glasses with, you know, in the wooden carry cases, it is, you know, the beer has got to be good, but it adds to the whole experience in the theatre of it as well. So. Yeah. And it's all theatre. I mean, we had a ah video go viral of the Colch waiter, the Cobes, they're called going mental at me. Cause I said Wunderbar when he bought us new ones. And he's like, we don't say, it can I swear?
00:09:51
Speaker
Yeah. We don't say fucking Wunderbar. He got so mad and it was funny because some Germans online were saying, oh no, he wasn't rude. He was just being honest. And some people are like, oh, I'm i'm German and that was rude. it was It was quite funny. It was a nice cultural experience to get abused. It's like drinking beer at a Karen's diner or something akin to that.
00:10:14
Speaker
ah I'd say I'm interested to see how the wildflower culture service goes because I've wanted to do a crafty pint Colche event for a while. But the thing is, I don't know if I trust Australians drinking Colche in the Colche system. I'm just too worried people would try to throw away the co-star and just I really i don't know if we can be trusted i think we're still really criminals deep down yeah maybe maybe oh yeah we'll see how it goes if people are going to respect it anywhere it's probably going to be wildflower that's true yeah yeah oh very good um well ah returning from your um esoteric travels and being abused by germans um before we get to
00:10:57
Speaker
The interview with James later. um I guess maintaining the travel theme, some of the other stuff new on the website this week. We've just put a listing live for Mitter Mitter Brewing. now Mitter Mitter is a little hamlet in Victorian High Country but it's one that you can't sort of go there en route anywhere else. You have to go, you'll kind of really want to get there. Run by these two families um who just supported that sort of bucolic lifestyle as much as you earlier. um Will's been up there a few times. It's one of those When I was proofing the listing, it's just like, I just want to drop everything and go there. So that's that's new on the site this week, which is a beautiful place to visit. You'll have to add to your yeah add to your destinations on a future trip. um And on a different note as well, a couple of um breweries that you've been writing up beers for, went sort of had announcements last week. So Rocks Into Administration, family pretty devo there, and Source looking for sale of their wholesale business. I mean, have you have you sort of been aware of sort of things getting tighter or sort of tougher around the Sydney market?
00:11:54
Speaker
Oh, definitely. You know, in that area ah specifically, the rocks being in South Sydney, you have so much competition nearby. Source in Marrickville, I don't know if there's a more competitive spot for drinks in Australia. It's a real shame for me because both of those breweries are places dear to my heart. My friend Eddie said Junior Brewer at Rocks and Source is a place where I've had Countless weekends in there, but that big is an easy place to get lost in. Yeah. Oh my goodness. It's amazing It's the best place to listen attainment parlor in the whole world You know, yeah, so that's a that's a huge bummer rocks, especially being a foundational brewery brewing for so many other contract brewers. That's a
00:12:36
Speaker
hopefully they can come out of voluntary administration doing well because it'll be a real real loss yeah if they don't yeah no it's definitely interesting time like seeing that on the one hand and then another story round late last week um about wolf of the willows turning 10 you know and there's all their 10 lessons from 10 years and some real sort of upbeat and positive stuff but also the recognition that you know it can be challenging, um but also a reminder of like how many, I don't know how many 10 lessons from 10 years we've done over the last year, but it's a reminder of sort of when that, I guess, peak growth boom happened in craft beer and how a lot of the businesses are maturing now, like Hop Nation turned 10 this weekend, you know, there's venues in their second decade as well. So it's, yeah, it's interesting time and hopefully, you know, summer's coming.
00:13:20
Speaker
the drinking of beer will increase interest rates. We'll start going down at some point next year
James Perrin's Sustainability Role
00:13:26
Speaker
and keep people going. But um but yeah, we'll probably get to the main chat. Before we do that, I know you were talking about a Kolsch event. I've actually just put details live of a Lager event in SA that Will and I are travelling over to Adelaide about three weeks today I think. Oh delicious. Yeah so we're doing because I still keep seeing people misspell lager as larger so and jade at the wheatie loves puns so it's called exploring the larger world of lager
00:13:56
Speaker
yeah and so yeah it's on November 27th, if anyone wants to come and join us, we'll be sampling a whole bunch of different lagers. We'll have Bryony, the sensory expert from Flavologic there. It should be fun and educational and enlightening and all those wonderful things. Nice domestic lagers or international? All domestic and in different sort of styles as the as the and but all pale, I guess, but it's sort of different styles as the event progresses. We'll get people to do a bit of blind tasting and scoring them and stuff like that as well. Oh, that sounds great, fire out. Should be good. um But yeah, so and what' what's up next for you then, Benny? You've got a few more days left in Melbourne. You go and check out Bronze Week, you were saying?
00:14:36
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I love to go to our beer mash in Collingwood every time that I'm here. I always have a beer that is unforgettable. I had a a mint and lavender beer one time. Do you remember what it was called? Oh no, I can't remember. But we had we had two servings of it and it was like 11 bucks. but Which I remember thinking was a lot at the time, but now it kind must have been more than that. And then we had one by, I think it was a pint of origin wine. It was creature.
00:15:02
Speaker
from Norway and someone else and it was a squid ink one. It had 11 ingredients in the name. It was ridiculous. Yeah, always enjoy something like that when I'm there and might pop back into the city for another Burek. I don't know. I love i love how you you've got the good Burek culture in Melbourne. It's very nice. Yeah, excellent stuff. Now, well, i and thank you for coming joining us here today, stepping in for Will. um You know, hopefully Will will still be allowed back in the future.
00:15:30
Speaker
Hopefully we'll we'll do your part to get your job back. Yeah, I know I can do a great job doing it anyway or even win we You've got a bit of podcast passed out and you put past champion podcast. Yeah, that's right Yeah, I did get nominated for an Australian podcast award. Yeah best scripted podcast Well, just like writing for crafty brought like triumph of the Penris Panthers Hopefully you coming on the show here will ah bring, you know glory for the crafty pint podcast in future.
00:15:54
Speaker
Oh yes, please get your votes in now for awards that we haven't put ourselves up for nomination yet. We'd really appreciate it. Yeah, that'd be great. um On which note, I must remember to ask everyone to like and subscribe to the show. And um yeah, let's go and see what James Perrin has to say about sustainability.
00:16:19
Speaker
James, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Will. Thank you, James. Good to see you both. Good to see you too. So do you want to tell us a little bit about your background in beer and also sustainability? I guess I would have first met you when you were at Stone and Wood, but I guess you were doing work in this area before you joined Stone and Wood.
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, sure. um Yeah, so my background is actually in chemical and environmental engineering. And I had a bit of an early life crisis as a as an almost graduate, realizing that all the job opportunities were in mining and oil and gas at the time. And I didn't want to do that because I was already, you know, quite a passionate environmentalist back then.
00:17:00
Speaker
And so I ended up, amazingly, ah you know, living in Australia, born in Australia, living in Australia, studying in Australia, but I got a job in New Zealand, um working with Lion over in New Zealand in the brewing industry, and didn't really intentionally get into the brewing industry, but um It was a good opportunity as a graduate and I immediately got to start working on a bunch of, I guess, sustainability related engineering projects, things like water, energy waste, wastewater treatment, those kinds of things. And I realised quite quickly how much, how many touch points the brewing industry has with sustainability elements, you know, agriculture and energy and waste and the community side. And so I very quickly became quite passionate about the industry.
00:17:45
Speaker
um So I spent a few years in New Zealand working over there and then opportunity came up um to move back to Australia and start with Stone and Wood. And it was really at a time when Stone and Wood was going through its, you know, quite rapid growth phase. um The Mullumbar Production Brewery was was it still being built. um And the role was was had a very much the sustainability lens to it, um helping the brewery grow. It's it's kind of wastewater was a big element of a sustainability packaging was a big element of it. But you know, at a as many craft breweries are, it was a very multifaceted role. So I ended up doing a little bit of a lot of things. But as the business grew, my, I guess my scope within the my sustainability scope within the business group, and so it broadened from just production to broader sustainability, supply chain, community,
00:18:38
Speaker
all the charitable giving elements, the foundation, starting the foundation, and all of the B Corp processes and really that holistic impact across the whole business. um and And yeah, I was with Stone and Wood for seven years, right up until the sale. It felt like it was almost a bit of a sandbox for someone like you at the time as well. It was like, it felt to me from the outside, seeing what you were doing and being shown some of the projects. It was kind of like,
00:19:06
Speaker
What can we do to be better? James, you tell us and we'll find a way to make it happen. Was that was that the case? Yeah, there there was definitely, there was a lot of trust from day one. There was a lot of, we don't have a, you know, there's no right or wrong here. What are what are the things that we can and could be doing? And so ah there was a lot of op scope and opportunity for me to go and find new things as well, which was really exciting.
00:19:30
Speaker
um And you know it was a really exciting time. it was the that The whole industry was in growth. Stone and Wood in particular was in growth. It was you know the shit-hot brewery, top of the gabs, all of that sort of stuff. And so you know we we we were holding a lot of community events, a lot of fundraisers, a lot of charitable giving. There were a lot of touch points. And so it was a very, very exciting time. Is um is there anything from that point that you're most proud of?
00:19:58
Speaker
you know There were there was some great projects and initiatives, you know, the foundation a lot of the social stuff that we did. But I think the thing that I'm most proud of even just me personally was um the authenticity in in which we did things, you know, we always we were always um always kind of there for the local community, always turning up a lot of stuff that maybe you didn't see um behind the scenes. You know, you might've seen stuff ah on social media or publicly about, you know, this fundraiser or this, you know, sustainability initiative in the brewery or whatever it was. But um sometimes, you know, we made decisions
00:20:35
Speaker
um Not necessarily for the publicity, but just because they were the right decisions, you know, choosing a local supplier over a national one. Um, even though they didn't quite give us as good a rates because we knew that we could grow together, um, showing up to the local community events and business chamber events and having our input on that and, and being a really representative part of the community. I think doing that over, not doing that once or twice, but doing that over and over again.
00:21:02
Speaker
built, you know, built a lot of authenticity and trust within the business at that point in time. Now, and I know a lot sort of happened in between Stonewood and being Spangledrongo, the brewery that you're part of now, that maybe would jump there, because I guess all those words talk about, you know, community, um you know, the sustainability focus, that's almost probably even more to the forefront with Spangledrongo. So you want to tell people a little bit about that and how you got involved with with the the other founders? Where?
Spangledrongo Brewery's Community Focus
00:21:31
Speaker
Spangledrongo came into my my realm of consciousness was basically after the 2022 floods here in the Northern Rivers or during the 2022 floods here in the Northern Rivers.
00:21:43
Speaker
um So the guys that's been with Drongo, Tom, Brian, and Steve had essentially been um contract brewing on a very ad hoc basis um for not very long, just to just to get a little bit of product in the market and just try to, you know, basically test the waters with a plan. The business plan was for them to go into this really big space right in the heart of Mullumbah underneath the Regent Cinema, big Art Deco building. And the business plan was going to be a brew pub, a venue with a skate ramp and all this cool stuff in it.
00:22:14
Speaker
Anyway, just they took the keys to the lease and just before they were about to move in and and build stuff in there, the floods hit and flooded the whole, not only that whole site, but obviously the whole town and many other communities in our region. And at the time the guys thought, well, we've got this big space in the heart of town that's open. Um, we should use it to help people out. Um, so they said, we're going to start a volunteer center and with no idea of how quickly that would grow because everyone, the whole community just completely dropped what they were doing. And within two days there were lines out the door and around the corner of people just wanting to help others. And it was this most incredible, amazing experience that came out of this obviously devastating destruction.
00:22:53
Speaker
Um, so I was part of that, you know, I got involved with that from a volunteering perspective. I was no longer working full time. So I was having a bit of a break and and I had the opportunity to really dive straight into that. And I knew Brian, he was obviously a stone wood brewer and then worked at Boulter. Um, and I got to meet the other guys and formed pretty close friendship and relationship with them. And, um, after all of that kind of community flood stuff, it went on for months and, you know, to be honest, there's a long tail of it.
00:23:20
Speaker
But all of that work, when that kind of came to it, came to a natural end in terms of their involvement in running that volunteer hub, um, they, their business was a bit as a bit of a crossroads because they had some issues with, um, council and landlord and business plan and and all of that. And so decided to pivot the business and build a raise money and build a production brewery in the industrial estate. And that's when they asked me to come on board.
00:23:44
Speaker
as essentially a fourth co-founder. And so we built our brewery in June, 2023, 25 hectolita brewery in the Malumbar industrial estate, literally in the shadows of the Stone and Wood Brewery. The big tanks cast a shadow over us behind them. um and And yeah, so since 2023, we've been operating as a um as ah as ah as a wholesale production brewery.
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah. So obviously, given how, how the story started, it's always been a brewery focused on community, but how have you sort of come into that as well? And from a sustainability perspective, like having come and get laid out, what's your sort of role being like in that space? Yeah. So.
00:24:27
Speaker
There are multiple ways that businesses and brewers can implement you know sustainability or impact initiatives and programs. And to date, a lot of them in our industry, particularly at the larger end of the spectrum, the really big brewers and and even a lot of what I did at Stone and Wood.
00:24:44
Speaker
Was about minimizing footprint you know how do we use less water how do we use less energy how do we not have really high-strength wastewater going down the drain you know how do we minimize our harm basically. That's the the waters per liter liters of water per liter of beer and all those kind of ratios all that engineering stuff that I cut my teeth on.
00:25:04
Speaker
um But there are obviously many, many other ways that you can have impact. And through Spangledrongo, the impact model that we built into the business very early was that it's going to be a charitable giving model. So for a portion a portion of every sale of beer, we donate to Australian Wildlife Conservation. And the reason for that is that the Spangledrongo, our namesake, the bird,
00:25:27
Speaker
is a native bird native to the east coast of Australia here. ah They're acrobatic flyers and they're also known to be, you know, fearsome protectors and they'll take on other birds of prey larger than them and often other bird species nest near them to gain that protection. And so we're kind ofre we're really inspired by that. And so the ethos is that, well, for every beer that we sell, we're going to donate a portion of proceeds to wildlife protection, to wildlife habitat protection.
00:25:52
Speaker
and And the name also sounds like the person last to leave a bush doof in the northern rivers as well. So it kind of works kind of nicely. There's that contrast, you know, where our branding, if you look on our social media, our website, our branding is very anti-establishment, you know, it's punk rock, it's skating, it's... you know, so give them the bird is our trademark and all of that, you know, um and and that, you know, would seem to contrast with the, you know, donation, wildlife impact. But where those two things actually go really well together, you know, we're not coming from it from a look where goody two shoes, look how good we are. Here's our sustainability report. We're trying to invite the customer to be part of that and be like, hey, you know, the more beer that you drink, the more gets donated. And this is something that we can all participate in together.
00:26:36
Speaker
And having gone down the production route, at least for now, how is the Spangledronger team sort of remaining involved in the community aside from, you know, the charitable side of things? I mean, are there plans to have a tap room to spend you down the line? Are you still getting out and doing, you know, pop up bars or being, you know, being involved in other ways?
00:26:54
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So we are in the works. We have a um have a space for a taproom, but we don't currently have it operating. We're we're working through you know DAs and liquor licensing and things like that. so But we will absolutely be having a taproom at our brewery in 2025.
00:27:12
Speaker
um in the meantime we are able to hold some pop-up events there you know pop-up gigs and things like that when we get a a temporary liquor license um but also but the main thing that we're doing and what we're really cutting our teeth in in the community and in that but space is through music and we're finding which is great because um there have been a lot of there There's a lot of talk around how the the live gig scene is struggling, you know, whether it's the large festivals or whether it's smaller venues that are getting noise complaints and and restrictions and things like that. So we're finding that where we can support live music and a lot of local and upper cominging and up and coming bands,
00:27:50
Speaker
Not only are we contributing to, again, that local economy and that community and bringing people together, but it also really has that great brand alignment as well. And, you know, we we support a lot of like punk rock and heavy metal type music as well. And, you know, they say live music is dead, but I'll tell you what, those punk rockers are not dead. It's interesting, you know, we've talked about it already on the podcast, you know, on the back of the Mill Brewery taking over the Bendy Hotel in Collingwood and sort of bringing this, you know, metal venue back to life. um You know, you've got the wheat, you know, there are venues around the country, Seeker in Wollongong, they're indie musicians themselves, they host a lot of live music. I think it is one of those ways that, you know, breweries, especially community focused breweries, if they are in the right space where they're not going to piss off neighbours, are actually
00:28:37
Speaker
able to be part of yeah keeping live music alive to some extent. So that's that's great to hear. Yeah, absolutely. You know, you think about this, this all the sustainability sides of business, you know, environmental metrics, but from the brewing brewing industry from ah a social element plays such a critical role in terms of social cohesion and bringing people together. You know, the the whole was at Starbucks or one of the big coffee companies talked about, you know, a coffee, a cafe being a third place between work and home.
00:29:06
Speaker
And I very much think that breweries play in that space. And that's why we're seeing a lot of brewers, you know, economic reasons as well, but a lot of brewers focusing on venues and actually, you know, building community and fostering community through their own venues or through their own events. I think that's really, really important part of bringing community together. Yeah. And in terms of your sort of wider work in this space as well, I advise it, and I know you sort of work with businesses outside of beer, but also within beer. Can you tell us a little bit about how that works?
00:29:36
Speaker
Yeah, so I do consult um from a ah sustainability perspective. and um i do ah I can do a lot of things. you know i've I've done waste water wastewater design. I've done you know sustainability strategies for businesses that are in the brewing industry and outside. But a lot of what I get, a lot of the work that I get is through B Corp. So I'm a trained B Corp consultant. And what that means is that you know I can help businesses use the B Corp framework um to implement sustainability you know sustainability and impact improvements to their business, whether or not they want to go for B Corp certification. So you can obviously you know go down the path of certifying.
00:30:16
Speaker
um and And that's essentially, you know, it's a third party certification that looks at your business practices across a whole range of initiatives. But even if you don't certify, you know, it's it's a useful framework to then look at the different parts of your business and unpack them and start to compare. And, and it it gives you, ah I guess, a common language and a common framework to start to make improvements against. So I, I can start with a lot of businesses on that, and and particularly a lot of breweries and brewing related businesses in recent times.
00:30:44
Speaker
Yeah. And do you find like like, why is it the beer industry sort of is in this position? Like, is it those many touch points that, you know, will you mind when you get walked into line in New Zealand the first time? Or is it like, like why do you think it sort of matters for breweries?
00:30:59
Speaker
um I think there's a few reasons. I think for one, we're obviously a very consumer facing business and product. um you don't And I think that's that happens a lot with B Corp and other sustainability um frameworks or certifications is that if you're a product that's on a shelf and you know consumers are touching and feeling it and understanding it, you want something that um is goingnna they're gonna understand and they're gonna see and you know that can maybe help their purchasing decisions. So I think that's one.
00:31:27
Speaker
um But more broader than that, I guess deeper than that, is that I really do think it's part of you know the the the ethos, the DNA of our industry. you know If you go back to, um if you look over the history of beer you know or the early um the early ancestors of beer, whether it was grain from fermented grain, water, you know, in Egyptian times that was used for ceremonial purposes, which, you know, was bringing people together, whether it was, you know, in the Middle Ages and monks brewing it to provide, you know, shelter, you know, to to to travelers or whether early modern times when it was every local um European
00:32:08
Speaker
European town and village had their own little brewery. you know it's It's very much for thousands of years beer or the you know early ancestors of what be what modern ne beer is have always been about bringing people together and being a core part of community. And so I think that there's a really important part of that that rings true for a lot of us in this industry.
00:32:29
Speaker
And if there are brewery owners or stock, you know, seeing stuff at breweries out there who perhaps haven't given this much thought where maybe they've opened the last few years and they've just been dealing with COVID cost of living crisis, you know, rising prices, whatever it might be. And they've not given it any so thoughts. Why should breweries care? I mean, yeah. Do you know a lot of.
00:32:51
Speaker
A lot of the time when I get approached by um but businesses that are ah curious you know and in in seeking my work, they're obviously curious on sustainability initiatives. A lot of the time, in early in the discussion, their mind jumps to, oh, should I just be measuring carbon and offsetting, you know carbon neutrality, or whatever the kind of modern um you know, what whether or or is this a certification that they've seen or something that their competitor is doing and that they've seen, maybe I should do, oh, maybe I should jump on 1% for the planet or whatever it is. And so there's a little bit of thinking of, um, there can be a little bit of thinking out there of, uh, I need to do this because, you know, it'll help me sell product or it's from a marketing perspective or whatever the case may be. And don't get me wrong. There are a lot of benefits. Um,
00:33:41
Speaker
and in implementing sustainability community impact initiatives into your business. you know It could be staff attraction and retention, um could be cost cutting if you're being more efficient in your resource use, could be yeah marketing and promotion if that's a key part of your branding. Of course, there are all of those benefits, but I would say that you know why should why should businesses care?
00:34:03
Speaker
I think it's for me, it's it's it's much deeper than that. And I can find out pretty quickly with the people that I'm having conversations with, their intentions behind it. And a lot of people are doing it just because they genuinely want to, one, do the right thing.
00:34:17
Speaker
But not at the cost of you know their financial sustainability, but but more so they they see it as a way to um strengthen you know holistically their business. um If you you're embedding a lot of these practices and and it's not by the book, it's not the same for everyone. Everyone's situation is different and your impact models and your location and your business will be different. And so we can talk about what different looks, the different examples look like. but um I think that people, when they're business owners or they're business leaders, they want to build in strong elements to their business. And I think, you know, having a really good foundation of of ethical elements to your business, it it strengthens your business in so many ways that some of them are really clear, like got those examples I listed before, but some of them are more intrinsic and nuanced, but we're all humans and we all understand that. And it's kind of like,
00:35:10
Speaker
There are all these frameworks and all these different activities you can do, but there's also an element of I kind of know it when I see it and I know it when it's authentic, you know? Yeah, yeah. And I think we'll come to talk some more specific examples after the break. Before we go there though, I'd love to sort of pick your brains, maybe at some ah different budget levels, but are you know what would you say are the you know the the key first steps or the biggest steps people who are interested in, you know I guess, making their business more sustainable, more you know um environmentally aware. What are the easiest and sort of the quickest or the best first steps that people can take, whether it's you know for a small brew pub or for a brewery with a bigger budget?
00:35:48
Speaker
Is it turn all the power points off at the wall? is That's what Dr. Karl told me to do. That's definitely not a bad thing. I'm not goingnna i' going to disc describe discourage you from doing that.
00:35:59
Speaker
um I would say before jumping to solutions mode, um it's it's not necessarily one, you know what are your three quick wins? um Because again, that's gonna be different for everyone, but it's really thinking about what are your key touch points? What are the what are the key areas that you're positioned, you're uniquely positioned to influence, right? And so I guess my my short answer response is the first step I think is there's a fair bit of internal reflection.
00:36:27
Speaker
So if you're a, you know, fairly large, medium, large scale production facility, then perhaps it is more about, you know, your resource use and your efficiency processes, because that's what you're uniquely to influence to have a material impact on. But if you're a small startup brewer and you're kind of, you know, manually batch brewing and you can't really influence um your water use in a significant way, then it might be something completely different and it might be around your, you know, who you're purchasing from and your supplier models. It might be around, you know, your community connection and what you're doing in that space. So for me, the first step is really internal reflection and kind of values alignment on, well, what do you care about? But what are you actually really uniquely positioned to influence? Excellent. All right, James. Well, we'll chat about um all this and your time over in America as well after the break. Cheers.
00:37:22
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:38:25
Speaker
That's suntappedeckles.com.au forward slash tap back. And now back to the show. So James, earlier this year, I know you took the trip over to America to chat at CBC, the Craft Rules
Speaking at Craft Brewers Conference
00:38:42
Speaker
Conference. What was that like? I mean, that's probably, I imagine that was your dream for for many years, having given so many Brucon presentations.
00:38:51
Speaker
Uh, yeah, it was interesting. Yeah. So I did give a talk at the craft brews conference, probably, uh, a little disappointed that it was held in the one city that I probably didn't want to visit out of the whole of the state. So here I was over in, yeah, I was over in, at the CBC talking about sustainability and impact frameworks in Las Vegas. It has to be the world's least walkable city, I think.
00:39:16
Speaker
Oh my gosh. It was hilarious as well. Cause there was, you know, I think probably at any overseas, you know, CBC or any other overseas, the Aussies can, we kind of find one another and we were all just freaking out and going, I can't believe this place is real. Yeah. So it was, it was pretty funny, but yeah, the, the, the talk went really well. Um, it was pretty funny cause the rooms were ginormous. Uh, so it felt, you know, not well populated, but I think it was, um,
00:39:42
Speaker
And really the talk was about um sustainability and impact frameworks to the point that I kind of made at a high level before which is that there are many ways to do things and often we jump when we think about this we jump straight into solutions mode or or something that we've seen or a competitor has seen but actually there are lots of different frameworks and really the presentation was about all heroes in my experience, the various different impact models. um I've grouped them into kind of buckets that are available to brewers, and this is what they look like, and this is what some of the benchmarks and what good looks like and what um ways you can measure it. And here are some of the some strategies on how to implement some of these processes. So it was really a talk about what I do when I consult with businesses anyway. And it was kind of giving the detail of, well, these are this is the the menu of things that are on offer to you, and this is a process of how I would implement them.
00:40:31
Speaker
And was there much follow-up from attendees? I'm interested to hear what you had to say. and And I guess also, did you see or visit or learn stuff in the States that you were like, are they ahead of the game compared to us Australia? Or you know did did you feel that what you're seeing in Australia is is on a par with with anywhere else in the sort of the beer industry?
00:40:51
Speaker
i think I think over the you know the the last decade or so, we ah we did often look to ah American breweries as the the leader of trends, certainly beer styles and things like that, I suppose, and their you know their economic growth, which preceded ours.
00:41:04
Speaker
But certainly, you know, from what I'd heard from others in recent years was that things seem to have caught up. And that, that was my experience as well, was over there that the types of, and not just from a sustainability point of view, going to a lot of other sessions um around marketing, around business planning and all of that, there was nothing that caught me as, wow, this is radically new and different to what we do and know back home.
00:41:28
Speaker
Great to see and experience it on the other side of the world and in a different part of the world where where there are a lot of breweries over there. But um no, I don't think that they're ahead of us in this space. I mean, certainly it's case by case basis a little bit.
00:41:44
Speaker
Cool. And what about this ah this James Perrin six-item menu that you were talking about before? I think there are six impact models um in general, but certainly for brewers. And this is not based on, you know, references. This is literally just based on my kind of thinking. So, um you know, keen to have it picked apart. But for me, there are kind of six key things, buckets.
00:42:12
Speaker
First is you can have impact through your product or service. So this is less available to brewers. This is where your product or service has a genuine social or environmental outcome. Easy ones, I think, to think of about health care or, you know, solar panels or something. They obviously have a direct benefit.
00:42:30
Speaker
I suppose you could make the case, you know, from ah like maybe a non-alc beer or that sort of thing, perhaps, or if it's a, you know, a health drink. But, um you know, you can have direct impact through your product or service. That's the first bucket. Second one is through your um operational practices. And this is what I touched on before. We see this a lot in the brewing industry, particularly at the larger end of the spectrum, where it's about How do we have have really, you know, water efficiency, energy efficiency, waste management? How do we have really efficient manufacturing and operational practices? So that to me is the second. Third is through your supply chain. So who are we purchasing from? This could be um environmental purchases like buying, you know, Spangledrungo at one of our core beers is an organic lager, you know, and so we're choosing to to to buy ingredients that ah have an environmental benefit.
00:43:21
Speaker
Uh, you know, we've obviously seen things like regenerative farming come into our landscape and ethos, but it could also be through local purchasing models. Who you purchase from could be, well, we, we commit to purchasing from local suppliers or supply chain. We commit to serving local customers. So that's a really important element. And I can look back on that on the B Corp piece as well. So that's that third bucket is your supply chain. Who are you purchasing from? Who are you selling to? What's the model around that? Fourth one.
00:43:50
Speaker
I've got to make sure I don't forget any of them. Fourth one is is community initiatives, right? So it could be charitable giving. Do you have a charitable giving commitment? It could be volunteering. It could be we've got other social social impact programs. There's a whole range of things you can do, but yeah, do you have community and social elements to your business?
00:44:12
Speaker
Fifth one is who and how you employ. So this could be you know businesses that choose to hire people from underrepresented populations. Maybe people have diversity targets in their hiring practices. Maybe people, I've seen businesses, I've worked with businesses outside of the brewing industry that have implemented roles to hire people you know that have mental disabilities and give them job trainings and pathways.
00:44:37
Speaker
Um, it could be a training and development practices. You know, we, we hire people and we, we train them up and give an upskill them in these ways. So who and how you employ, uh, is that five, I think I've got one more. Um, uh, the, uh, yeah, sixth one is, uh, your advocacy and, and this can kind of cut across all, but it's really, how are you using your, um,
00:45:02
Speaker
your brand and your voice and your business to advocate for better practices could be through petitions could be through industry practices you know industry groups and forums um could be through you know working with local councils and politicians on you know better regulatory practices could be all sorts of things but your advocacy and engagement practices. So I think those are six, unless I'm missing one. And and um you know what I often find is that businesses that I work with are maybe doing a little bit of a couple of them and maybe doing a little bit here and a little bit there and it's kind of ad hoc. um And so often the work that I do and the work that um the B Corp framework will take people through
00:45:46
Speaker
is how do you embed these practices? How do you formalize them? So if you're doing a little bit of training and development and a little bit of charitable giving, well how do we, if if that's what you want to build into your impact strategy, how do we formalize them and embed them and track them and make sure that that's a key part of your business ongoing?
00:46:02
Speaker
Yeah. And if you're looking at a recent example of some someone you've worked with, and Jarvis Bay um in New South Wales, who became the smallest Australian brewery to date to achieve B Corp status. And most recent within the
Achieving B Corp Status: Jervis Bay Brewery
00:46:16
Speaker
last month.
00:46:16
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, very, very, so in terms of how I guess you were engaged by them, how the process works and sort of might be good to give us a bit of a detailed example of how this process happens from your perspective and from the brewery perspective.
00:46:33
Speaker
Yeah. And it's funny, like incredible synchronicity. I just got a text just then from machine because I texted him saying, are you happy if I talk about, you know, Jervis Bay on the podcast? And he just wrote back then and said, yes, sorry. There we go. I'm in the fortune camping. Um, so, but perception's bad, but yes, of course. So cool. Got the tick. Um, so yeah, Jervis Bay, um, machine reached out to me. I mean, I knew him from IBA and, and you know, the industry.
00:46:59
Speaker
But he reached out to me wanting to, you know, pursue the B Corp pathway. He's obviously very passionate and interested um in environmental sustainability. And we started the process and what it looks like is the first step is is get a baseline.
00:47:15
Speaker
So you know you can log in and use the framework and it will ask you a whole bunch of questions across governance, workers, community, environment, customers, um things that you probably wouldn't have considered for your business before. um And essentially how you answer each question, it'll give you a certain amount of points depending on your responses. And so the first step is to just fill that out and get a baseline score, a baseline of where you currently are. And we did that at Jervis Bay.
00:47:41
Speaker
um Then the next step is to okay pick apart the things in the assessment that we think, one, are achievable for us, but two, obviously align with what we want to do. So there could be stuff around volunteering, could be stuff around workers, could be stuff around governance policies and practices. Probably in most in most cases, it's a mix of a lot of those things. And start to chart an improvement pathway. And that's what we did for for Jervis Bay. Was was there much that the team there had to change? Because obviously, they've put sustainability you know, front and center of the business from day one, um you know, and community. So, you know, did you find, oh, you know what, you're already three-quarters of the way there or whatever it might be. There's not much has to change. Or was there a lot of work required for them to to get where they wanted to be?
00:48:26
Speaker
A lot of it was about, and this is common across you know pretty much every client I've had, a lot of it was about they were doing lots of really good things, but in a um unstructured or unformalized way. And so when it comes to B Corp, you're essentially going through an audit process because you know you go through a verification process with B Lab where you need to show evidence of these things.
00:48:49
Speaker
And you might be able to say, well, you know, back in 2022, we held a fundraiser, but you know, that's not enough to show that you are out of all giving programs, right? So you need to have policies, you need to be able to show, you know, historical revenue. So from Jervis Bay's point of view, we had to show, you know, going back a certain amount of time,
00:49:08
Speaker
you know the portion of sales split but to local and independent customers. So that's the other caveat is that it has to be local and independent customers because the intent of that that impact framework is that your business is supporting the local economic development of your local region.
00:49:26
Speaker
And we had to actually provide a lot of proof and evidence to that. So Jervis Bay were doing a lot of amazing things um and it was just about going, well, how do we kind of formalize a lot of it and, um you know, ramp a lot of it up and make it so that like it's embedded in part of your business practices going forward. And we've got the evidence to show that.
00:49:45
Speaker
I think sometimes it's good to be asked questions about yourself, yourself generally all your business, to actually realise what you do. I think sometimes, you know, a lot of these things will probably just be part and parcel of what you've done without realising what they are. So I guess you even even that could probably be quite eye-opening for businesses as well. um and in And in terms of them achieving B co-op, there's obviously some other um accreditations that other breweries in Australia um have and sought and gained over in
Sustainability Certifications in Brewing
00:50:14
Speaker
recent years. Can you keep sort of tell and listeners or watchers the podcast a bit more about some of those other um accreditations that people are seeking in this space as well?
00:50:23
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, B Corp is a framework. It's not the only framework. i I find it quite useful. But there are obviously others, you know, we see a lot of there are multiple different carbon neutrality frameworks, the most, um I guess, well regarded one in Australia is climate active.
00:50:39
Speaker
um And so that um that's a framework for for for businesses to certify that they are carbon neutral in terms usually in terms of their operations is what we see. So when a but in most cases when a brewery claims climate active or carbon neutrality certification,
00:50:57
Speaker
What they're claiming is that their scope one and two emissions, that is their emissions from their production practices are carbon neutral. And usually that's through the purchase of offsets, right? Well, not usually, it always is. There's a certain element of production they can do in-house, but there's always a gap. And so the remainder is through the purchase of carbon offsets.
00:51:16
Speaker
um So that's one, you know, there are other carbon neutrality, global carbon neutrality certifications as well, but usually in Australia climate active is the most common one. I actually think that we're going to see businesses walk away a little bit from some of these carbon neutrality certifications. um We've seen it a little bit with some of the large large corporations, but you know, large multinationals, because I think people are starting to realise that um sometimes offsets are a bit of a scam. Not always. um Certainly there are some, you know, carbon sequestration initiatives, which are legitimate, of course, but there are also, you know, you can you can buy cheap carbon offsets from a manufacturing plant in China.
00:52:02
Speaker
and claim that you're a carbon neutral business. you know and And I think consumers and are starting to see through that as not a legitimate sustainability practice. And so I think for that reason, the whole carbon neutrality piece, as well as the fact that you have to buy offsets every year and a lot of businesses would rather just take that money and invest it into their own business.
00:52:22
Speaker
into their own operations and practices. I think for those reasons, we may just see a little bit of a walk back of carbon certifications, um but that's just my opinion. And then there are other, there are all all sorts of other certifications, fair trade, organic, you know, that there are so many things, but I think one that's really relevant and meaningful for our business, for our industry that we sometimes gloss over is the certified independence.
00:52:43
Speaker
you know And I genuinely think that that's an impact certification and an impact business model. and As in the IBA, just for clarity, as in the ah IBA's, um, CL and all of that. I think, I think that's a really important one for our industry because, um,
00:53:01
Speaker
it's ah it's ah trick It's a tricky one, right? I used to work at Lion. I've got a lot of friends that work at Lion and Asahi and the big multinational brewers and they're all amazing people. And no doubt those businesses do, you know, some great things from a sustainability and community initiative, but at the same time, we have to acknowledge that the the system and the the way that those big multinationals work is that they are squeezing out all of us smaller independent brewers that are providing local jobs, providing local, um you know, local community spaces that are, you know, all the things that the IBA advocates and stands for. And it's a really difficult one because we're also friendly in our industry. We don't want to like point fingers and and and and step on toes. And in doing that, we don't want to, you know,
00:53:46
Speaker
My intention is not to say that people that work for big brewers are bad because they're not. I used to work for one. um But I think that we need to really continue to highlight how important you know being a small independent ah brewery in our country is because we provide you know manufacturing jobs in regional areas and support communities in so many ways. I think that's a really important impact business model that we we need to continue to push further with. In terms of pushing further with it, do you think you know, we need more people, more breweries to get around it. You know, not a large amount of independent breweries in the country aren't IBA members. Those, not everyone that is has seal-like, or do you think we sort of maybe need to tell that independent story in a different way to to cut through? Like, like yeah, we've we've had this sort of organization for a long time now. Do we need, how do we sort of cut through to beer drinkers in a fresh way? Or are we doing the right thing? We just need to keep going.
00:54:47
Speaker
It's a great question and I don't have all the answers. I think certainly we do need to keep going. But where it's really tricky is like ah like I said before, a lot of us have come from the big brewers. A lot of us have friends there.
00:54:59
Speaker
But also, you know, when we look at, you know, the big retailers, a lot of us sell to them as well. And so there's this really, really tricky relationship situation going on across multiple avenues of the spectrum. But the truth is, for every fake craft beer brand that comes out, it's an attack on the rest of us, right? And it's craft washing, it's green washing impact, what it is craft washing, right? And, and seeing this later like articles in the UK and they're they're pushing for this. I think we need to continue to push further and maybe we need to um
00:55:32
Speaker
in some way stop being quite so nice about it and really highlight, especially, you know, when when ah our industry continues to really be in a time when a lot of breweries are struggling, I think we really need to highlight the really damaging impacts that some of, you know, that these ah large brands and large multinationals are having on our local industry. i think that And I think, you know, we sort of like to add this to the conversations where you've got sort of the large,
00:56:02
Speaker
brands coming from the major breweries, which is one thing. But you talked about the sort of fake craft brands. I think the one that's almost more insidious is what's coming out of the likes of of the major retailers, you know, with the the Pinnacle drinks brands, tinnies from from Coles in that, you know, they're not even breweries making these products, you know, it is like putting your, you know, your your home brand washing up liquid on the shelf, really, but dressing it up as as craft beer. And it seems to me that that's another level that's come in the last few years. It's kind of always been there, but really there seems to be more influence, more push in that area, and which is similar as to the threat. Some of these beers are on tap now
Retail Competition with Independent Breweries
00:56:42
Speaker
as well. back and got into that yeah I was at the SP, which is now owned by ABC, which is another one because they own hundreds of pubs now and they dealing with less and less breweries and that's pushing more Indies out. But the SP in St Kilda, which is a bizarre, it's like the Epcot center of pubs now. It's so bloody weird.
00:56:58
Speaker
But they had Cole's tinnies on tap, like a Cole's home brand on tap in a pub. And I was like, what's what, what fresh level of hell is this? You know, one of the great live music venues of Melbourne as well to circle back to the the start of this conversation. i guess And it's really, it's really tricky, right? It's really tricky to paint all of, you know, all of this is good and all of this is bad because it's not that binary either. You know, there' it's really, really tricky one to unpack, but I think that, um,
00:57:27
Speaker
I think we need to try. yeah and and um you know And it comes back to, I so mentioned earlier, you know in terms of authenticity, I know it when I see it, there's a little bit of that within authenticity as well. And you know we've seen over in recent times, we've seen the ACCC crack down on green washing, we've seen ASIC crack down on green washing, but really from a regulatory point of view, those organizations, when they crack down on that thing, all they can really crack down on is um Essentially false advertising, you know, if you, so if you make an environmental claim and you're not actually doing it, that's what they're going to ping you for. They can't ping you if you're positioning your product and brand is one thing, but it's not really that. And it's something else, you know, that it.
00:58:12
Speaker
They're not making a call on what's a good environmental practice or not. They're just kind of pinging businesses if if they don't do is what they say they do. Whereas where I think we need to get to is is understand, well, what what type of um businesses and environmental practices and community practices and and local economic practices do we actually want to see in the world and and in ah and in our industry? And how can we genuinely advocate and um and aligned to that, and how can we make that happen? And it's not an easy one, but I think it's one that we need to continue to push further into. Yeah, and in this sustainability space as well, you know, we had Hamish on ah the podcast, Munchko Hamish from Rocky Ridge, and he talked about, you know, not always wanting to use the term sustainability because he worries about how green washed it is. Like, do you think there's ways to break that down? I mean, even you touched on some of the problems with certification like B Corp,
00:59:09
Speaker
you know, Brewdog was a B Corp, they no longer are, but that they got exposed to some really horrible business
Greenwashing vs Genuine Sustainability
00:59:16
Speaker
practices. Like, like, where do you sort of see all that space? So there's this other, there's the the flip side of greenwashing is green hushing. And that's where businesses are ah reluctant to talk about their practices for fear of, you know, being cut down, essentially, put or or to be targeted.
00:59:35
Speaker
Um, and certainly if you put yourself out there as a B Corp or something like that, or, you know, this certification, or these are our practices, if you do that, um, you're opening yourself up to, if you don't, if you do something negative in other ways, like brew dog and you don't go broke, mate, go, won't go broke. You got to look out, right? The people want to, yeah, people want to poke holes in, in, in business practices. If you tell them it's interesting, you know, like I read a lot of, I read it for my, my investing job, I read a lot of. Company sustainability reports and if that's all you read we got no problems in the world, you know every business Touting how great that how much they're reducing this and how much they're doing that and and so I kind of get it what Hamish is saying in terms of like we don't always want to talk about it and we don't always want to push this thing because
01:00:26
Speaker
One, yeah, you're opening yourself up to criticism, but two, everyone's doing it. And so for me, it keeps coming back to, um, it keeps coming back to authenticity and how do you build authenticity? And I think that's through showing people, you know, commitment. It kind of comes back to what I said before about what I've been most proud of, you know? and when I was at Stone and Wood, but also certainly with Spangled Drongo, like putting the business plans on hold to use our facility as a volunteer center, losing money every week on rent, you know, doing that genuinely because it was the right thing for the for the community.
01:01:02
Speaker
Um, that has meant that when we opened up as a business and we've started to hold events and sell our beer, people like, Oh, those guys are cool. They, you know, they did this and they were part of that. By doing that, you know, in the early days of the business, it was, it wasn't a, something that we could put on a sustainability report or on a, you know, a marketing campaign. It was just something that was real and authentic for the community. And that was.
01:01:25
Speaker
that has been something that has held true for the for the following years. So I think, you know, it comes back to how do you just build ah re buildd authenticity into your business and try to have a positive impact, whatever that looks like for you.
01:01:41
Speaker
And are there, you know, aside from the breweries that you've either been involved with or work with, or, you know, even other businesses related to the beer industry, you know, the suppliers who are making moves in this area as well. Are there other examples you've looked at and gone, yes, you know, they're doing great stuff in this space around the country? Oh, definitely. I mean, I'm a massive advocate for um for a lot of a lot of the practices that are being implemented. I think, you know, I've been to Voyager and what they're doing out in Whitten, you know, Ryfield are doing some great things in terms of their hot practices. You know, there are a whole bunch of suppliers that are doing amazing things. And I think the difference is how do you identify the ones that are doing it with a true and intention versus um what are the business that are trying to um make themselves look good?
01:02:35
Speaker
And, you know, I'm not saying that there are, you know, I'm not pointing fingers at that. But that's what I keep coming back to. And maybe it's again, my framework, because I've been reading a lot of these sustainability reports lately. But, um but, you know, you can you can see it when you when you talk to the person, you see it in their eyes, you see their intention, you hear their story, you understand why they're doing it. That's, that's, that's, to me, what's really important. I think that's really important to customers as well. that That's what's going to cut through.
01:03:04
Speaker
to the drinkers, to the consumers is to go, um is this just another social media post or another you know sustainability part of your webpage, which is trying to promote your practices so that you can say, look how good we are, we raise this much, or look how good we are, we're using less resources versus hey, this is a problem. you know I actually like to start with the problem. this is These are our challenges, and this is how we're trying to solve it. And this is what we've done well, and this is what isn't quite working so far, but this is what we're trying to do to work on it. I think people really resonate with that, because it feels really real and authentic, rather than trying to gloss over some of the issues and some of the poor practices that we have. And then looking at it from a different perspective, from a consumer's perspective,
01:03:48
Speaker
um ah There will be some people out there who are engaged, they are interested. you know We certainly keep telling these stories you know wherever we can find them and generally can find a bit of a slower traction, shall we say, with readers than some other things that might be a bit more sort of and frivolous or certainly bad news. But you know we we sort of keep to you know what I guess, you know why should consumers care, you know, why might they want to make it, you know, a choice based on on a business practice, especially at a time when perhaps they're going, I don't have much money to spend to really think like that. I'm just, look that's, that's, you know, my, my buying choices are guided purely by what I can find that's on offer, for example. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, certainly, I understand that, um,
01:04:41
Speaker
Sometimes consumers, it's sometimes consumers don't care. That's actually the hard truth of it is that sometimes they don't. And you know what, that's okay. Like, how do we, but first of all, first of all, there's an old, there's an old marketing adage. If no one cares about your brand as much as you do. Um, and so sometimes we can get all caught up in, in, in things when.
01:05:04
Speaker
really the customers, sometimes they're just looking for a product and a brand that resonates with them. And and and sometimes that means their price point. um But you know what, like I found that that you can cut through in many ways. So so yes, there are certainly some consumers who genuinely look for those certifications, those practices, you know they're they're making purchasing decisions based on or somewhat based on sustainability community elements for sure. That's a portion of the market. um But for a large portion of the market, they might not be making care about that sort of stuff specifically and the detail of that. But you might actually find that they do care about, again,
01:05:52
Speaker
authenticity and real, like real people behind the brand. I'll use, you know, Spangledrongo as an example. We've released in the last couple of months, we've released this organic mid strength lager. It's our second core range beer. And, um, you know, it's, it's, it's organic, right? As as a starting point.
01:06:09
Speaker
You know, we have our whole impact model. You know, our branding is is um quite different, I suppose, to kind of mainstream beer branding. So you would think that it's not the type of thing that your kind of everyday Great Northern or Forex drinker would go for. That being said,
01:06:25
Speaker
We've actually converted a hell of a lot of drinkers in our local region. And it's not because we go, look, it's organic and look, we save wildlife with each can. That's not necessarily influencing their their purchasing decisions. But what is, is they go, oh, I've met those guys. I've seen the brewery. I know how they do things. They're good people. I'm going to buy them from them and support them.
01:06:45
Speaker
You know, and that's genuinely what a lot of them have told us. I mean, they like the beer too, which obviously is. But, but again, that's keeps coming back to building that authenticity into brand and often people will, when they know the story, the people behind the brand and the story behind the brand and the business.
01:07:02
Speaker
a lot of them will buy into that and again that's not everyone but a lot of them will and i think that coming you know so so you know thinking about it from a i guess a sustainability marketing point of view perhaps it shouldn't we shouldn't be focusing so much on you know the.
01:07:17
Speaker
um the sustainability reports and and this certification. Those things are great, I'm not discouraging those, but I think the more that we can um show that where real people, real businesses doing real things in our community showing up, you know, over a consistent period of time, um that is what is going to cut through for our industry, I think, really importantly. Yeah, no, no, I've been sort of thinking as it's saying for a long time, I think the best way to get any message across about the craft beer community or ah certainly indie, you know, independence is to get people to meet the people in your venue or your brew pub to come in and go, because there'll be a lot of people out there who've never tried anything other than a mainstream beer, who might still think that every craft beer is some extreme flavoured sort of, you know, awful thing, but they'll come into a local brew pub
01:08:06
Speaker
In their community and find some connection with the people or discover that someone in there, you know, distant family or their friends, daughters working, you know, but whatever it might be. And then they have that connection and then they have an interest. Then they have a reason to be interested in the story and then potentially buy that beer, not because they've chosen it for at any other reason other than.
01:08:27
Speaker
it's something they can tell their mates, oh, I've got this local, next time you're in town, we'll go down, this is my local, you can come and meet Bob, whatever it is, you know, and I think then it gets a lot easier to tell the rest of the story around Craft Beer, the story of independence, whatever it might be, once you've actually won someone over on a personal level.
01:08:44
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. and And, and, and then you can, you know, you can then build from there, you know, like, like with the, ah like with this example, you know, we've got traders that work next to the brewery, show them around the brewery, they get to know who we are, we're all mates now, they buy from us and they love it. And in doing that, they've now learned, Oh, what's Oh, I didn't realize that you know most of the beer in this country is owned by overseas multinationals and oh I didn't realize that there are 600 small brewers across the country supporting all the local regions and oh that's really cool what you guys do with wildlife you know like I'm um'm on board with that you know that that comes after you build those genuine authentic connections um it's not us in our face going look how in their face going look how good we are it's organic and we're supporting wildlife you should buy from us that's
01:09:32
Speaker
somewhat guilt tripping them. um and And it's also not their but not making their purchasing decisions. So yeah, it's it's it's ah it's an interesting one. There's a bit of interesting psychology around that. But I 100% agree. you know Our industry, that's the really strong point is the people behind it, the you know the the the local community element of it behind it, I think that is probably the most important part of our industry.
Future of Local Economies in Brewing
01:09:57
Speaker
James, we'll have to wrap up soon, but before we go, do you have any big big dream or hope for whether it's for all craft beer, indie beer, or sustainability? you know That's a big question. um I think it's what's really interesting is I think our industry, what like whilst there's obviously been a lot of talk about the challenges that we're you know the independent beer movement is in at the moment,
01:10:24
Speaker
you know, upon reflection, it's been an incredible success that our industry has proliferated like this over the last decade or two. And what what I find interesting is that,
01:10:37
Speaker
people learn and care about, you know, independence and community and good business and doing, and building good things into your business through craft beer or local beer or independent beer. But, um, perhaps then don't take those same purchasing decisions across the rest of their lives. You know, so, um, and I'm guilty of this. It's like, I'll go buy from the local brewery, but then I'll go and shop at the massive supermarket chain and buy the generic biscuit brand off the shelf or whatever.
01:11:02
Speaker
So I actually have a hope, a big hope and dream that not only does our industry continue to flourish and grow and succeed in this space, but it cascades over into other industries and other purchasing decisions. you know I think the more that we have consolidation of kind of centralization of you know power and resources and multinationals, that like um in case you haven't realized I'm quite anti-establishment in that regard. And so my my vision or my hope is that our industry influences the broader local community industry and leads to this, you know, growth of kind of small local business across the country in in in in all industries.
01:11:44
Speaker
local high streets coming to life again with, you know, this the smaller specialist businesses and, you know, people able to somehow survive or survive because they're being supported by local people choosing to go there rather than buying online or buying from Kohl's or whatever.
01:11:59
Speaker
Absolutely. like you know if i We're all linked. right and so you know if we buy if we If someone buys a beer from us and then we use that you know we spend that money on local transport providers rather than you know massive global conglomerate And then those guys, you know, they spend their money on the local independent fuel um provider rather than, you know, the shell and BP service stations. And then that family that owns that spends that at the IGA and then that manager then spends that at the local, you know, news agent or whatever.
01:12:31
Speaker
that dollar has circulated in the community multiple times but as soon as it goes to one of the big multinationals it's offshore and it goes into the pockets of shareholders somewhere else and so for me that is the crux of my vision is how can we actually create that really great community economy together and that's where I think our industry is really uniquely positioned to have a material impact so that's my kind of hope.
01:12:55
Speaker
Excellent. we've we've We've built right up to, you know, Such a mission statement. sacred the You said bread, hopes and dreams, you know. Okay James, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a fantastic chat. Thanks. It's been a pleasure, guys. Thank you so much for having me on. No worries. Cheers. Cheers.
01:13:19
Speaker
The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials. We wouldn't be able to produce the podcast or the website, events or festivals we run without the support of the beer industry, whether that's suppliers, bars, breweries or bottle shops.
01:13:43
Speaker
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