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25 Years Of Holgate
355 Plays5 days ago
It’s fair to say Episode 017 of The Crafty Pint Podcast is a special one. After all, you can count the number of people who’ve achieved what this week’s guests have achieved on one hand.
It was all the way back in 1999 that Paul and Tash Holgate sold the first Holgate beers, long before “craft beer” was a term – it was “boutique beers” and “microbreweries” in those days – and a full decade before the industry’s growth really started to go into overdrive. Little Creatures hadn’t yet launched, and Mountain Goat were barely two years into their adventure down the road in Melbourne.
Now, 25 years on, they occupy rarified territory: marking their quarter-century milestone while still independent, still running the business hands-on, still making plans for the years ahead, and all while producing some of the finest beers of their history to date.
We joined Paul and Tash in the bar of the pub in Woodend that has acted as their home since they moved the brewery out of the family home in their first few years of operation.
There, they reflected on the early years, when they were raising a very young family at a time when even getting their hands on things as straightforward and essential as ingredients and packaging was a tall order, and when most venues they approached dismissed their beer as homebrew.
We hear their take on the rise of the craft beer industry, how they’ve navigated the changes as it evolved into something well beyond their expectations, the hurdles they’ve faced and successes they’ve enjoyed over the past quarter-century, and how they’ve gone about celebrating their 25 Years of Beers.
You couldn’t wish to spend time in the company of a more down-to-earth and genuine couple, or to meet two people still so clearly loving what they do, even in the face of the challenges that have arisen in recent years.
The chat with Paul and Tash begins at 09:30
Prior to that, Will and I discuss two fun stories we published this week: one on a mini-revival for beer in bottles – notably longnecks; the other looking at the reasons behind the rise of hops from New Zealand both here and globally in the past couple of years.
We also touch on the news that Australia’s first non-alc brewing company, the Indigenous-led Sobah Beverages, is looking to sell its brewery and taproom on the Gold Coast, and the impending opening of two regional breweries in Victoria: the all-new Bendigo Brewing and a new, larger site in Castlemaine for Shedshaker.
Relevant links:
Back On The Bottle: https://craftypint.com/news/3617/back-on-the-bottle
Choice Az! The Rise Of Kiwi Hops: https://craftypint.com/news/3623/choice-az-the-rise-of-kiwi-hops
Sobah Beverages Downsizing: https://craftypint.com/news/3619/sobah-beverages-put-brewery-on-market-and-plan-to-downsize
Bendigo Brewing Opening: https://craftypint.com/event/13512/bendigo-brewings-grand-opening-weekend
James on The Do Landers Podcast: https://thedolanders.com/
Holgate Brewhouse: https://craftypint.com/brewery/156/holgate-brewhouse
Holgate ESB: https://craftypint.com/beer/10917/holgate-brewhouse-esb
Holgate x Noodledoof Dank AF: https://craftypint.com/beer/10855/holgate-x-noodledoof-dank-af-west-coast-ipa
Paul & Tash: https://craftypint.com/news/2255/craftys-advent-calendar-paul-and-tash-holgate
Bintani: https://www.bintani.com.au/
To find out more about supporting the show or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact [email protected].
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Transcript
Celebrating Crafty Pine's Milestone
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Crafty Pine podcast. A very special episode this week week as we celebrate a huge milestone for one of Australia's long standing indie brewers.
Will's Bali Escape Before Volcanic Eruption
00:00:15
Speaker
Before we get to that, um Will, how have you been? Good.
00:00:19
Speaker
Good to be back in Australia. Yes. How was how was the rest of your Bali trip? And apologies, you know, again, for interrupting it to chat about that big article a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, it was it was great. Very glad to be back because I saw on the news this morning that flights had cancelled it and out because of a volcano. So.
00:00:36
Speaker
Okay, I'm glad um my feet are firmly on the ground. Excellent.
Resurgence of Beer Bottles
00:00:40
Speaker
No good to have you back um And yeah, a couple of interesting stories to have a chat about. Yeah, before we get to the main interview today um The first one there's been a bit of a I guess a bottle Renaissance bottle revival to an extent Yeah, I love this story. So it's a Mick Woost story. um There's a couple of breweries that have never given up on bottles. One of them we'll hear from later. Bridge Road have kept some of their beers. Heads of Noosa as well, obviously, and they're focused on Laga, but these were breweries that are sort of
00:01:10
Speaker
newer and have decided to put some beers into bottles as well and they're selling really well and I kind of thought there were sort of two schools in there you had Common Ground and also Dangerous Ales who you see it as a sort of nostalgia play and then you've got Found that see it as disruptive I like the point that ah Steve Finney was like how often do you see a hazy IPA in bottle and it is very yeah in 2024 that's a polar bear in Arlington, Texas, isn't it? Like, you can't really think of anything weirder almost to see a big icy beer in
Nostalgia vs. Disruption: Bottle Strategies
00:01:42
Speaker
a bottle. And yeah, interestingly, I actually got, I drank Bodriggy's Stingray stubby last night at 640 mil. It's great. Well, that was it. I think I was actually putting the story in the back end of the site when Pete from Bodriggy sent an email going, hey, we've just done this. I'm like, ah.
00:01:58
Speaker
Yes, I'd sold it out. It's had a good timing. But then, and then actually after we ran the article earlier this week, I then got a phone call from Pat at Willy the Boatman in Sydney, and he's launching Longnecks 3, you know, 325 in the bars and an old school in ice as well. So, I mean, I'm sure it's, I'm sure we're not going to see a return to everyone putting their beer into bottles, but clearly, you know, I guess there's a marketing element to it, but also that nostalgia kind of thing and just giving people something a bit fun and
Popularity of Kiwi Hops
00:02:25
Speaker
a bit different. Yeah, I think it's pretty cool.
00:02:27
Speaker
Yeah, and another trend this one's been going for a couple of years more is the spread and rise of Kiwi hops in Australia, but also in America as well. You see a lot of breweries really putting way more prominence, I think, on those hops as a selling point. They're used to not that long ago.
00:02:42
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's something that Jason True, one of our Sydney-based writers, sort of put forward as an idea um a few weeks ago, maybe a few months ago now. and I think he was seeing a lot of beers coming out with, you know, nectar roll, not super deli as part of their name. And I think there's been a combination of factors. There's been, I guess, some pretty significant changes in the industry. There's more availability. There's um smaller growers have come to the prominence who are, I guess, working with and maybe in different ways with with some brewers around the world. There's been the Brack Brewing Program from NZ Hops in terms of putting out some of their experimental varieties, some of which have been pretty amazing, some of the great beers we've had using those. And I guess all those factors have come together, um I guess, along with greater availability for brewers and people I like in a minute. I think one of the comments that I think it was Damo again,
00:03:27
Speaker
ah dangerous sales. We featured even two stories back to back. We're saying the sort of the soft um sort of character of a lot of the newer New Zealand hops suits hazy IPAs. Yeah. And um that's what, you know, people, maybe it was actually, Nick called us girls at one drop. They both had lots of good things to say, but basically it really suits those sort of hazy IPAs, those sort of more modern IPAs that people are making.
00:03:50
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, it's it's definitely something that is has happened it has been happening for a while. And and yeah, just interesting to hear the reasons why why it's, you know, got to this point. Yeah.
Soba Brewery's Challenges and Future Plans
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah. And um also late last week, we had the news that Soba, selling their brew house, the brand will continue on. So this is Australia's first non-out brewing company, first physical production brewery as well. They've decided to They called it strategic downsizing so streamlined the business I guess and and didn't feel like they had.
00:04:23
Speaker
in this economy, the sort of ability to run a production space in the way they are at the moment. Yeah, no, it was kind of sad to see. Obviously, there was going to be a good opportunity for someone there. I guess it's a challenge for anything that's sort of a more niche market right now to find traction. I thought there was a bit of an unfortunate comment in there about some of the reasoning behind their recent rebrand, which was to try and put sort of the fact that we're a non-out brewery first, as opposed to um indigenous business, which- Yeah, which has always been the big selling point for me. I love the Sober story so much, and Clinton's passion for it, and and his own experience with alcohol as well, that like that is such a... good story. um it's It's a shame that that potentially doesn't cut through to more people. Yeah, it sort of, yeah,
Bendigo Brewing's Launch and Regional Growth
00:05:11
Speaker
fits into some of the issues. We may be having the wider Australian economy, unfortunately, but um basic obviously they're going to continue that they're going to explore export markets. But so I guess coming on the back of, you know, source looking to sell their wholesale business and
00:05:23
Speaker
um You know rocks going to VA just shows just how challenging it is out there for now um I guess in the flip side of that and in closer to home for us There's a couple of what a move and a new opening this week. Yeah, so Bendigo brewing which has been in the works for Couple of decades. A hundred years or something. I'm not sure of one of the sort of ah longest running ah brewery openings we're we're sort of aware of. Finally opening its doors this weekend. yeah So that's great to see. ah It's got involvement from the team at Bendigo Beer who have spent a very long time promoting craft beer in the area. it was We had a look at it a couple of months ago during Bendigo on the Hop. They've managed to temporarily open. It's a really great space in a nice part of town as well. so And Evan Hunter, who's the head brewer there, we sort of first came across him when he was at Lark and then he was at Shed, so seven sheds, not Shed Shaker, and in Bruni Island for a while. So I've been sampling some of his sort of trial beers for a couple of years now. He's a great brewer, um always yeah interested in using interesting ingredients and different techniques. So that should be pretty cool. And then um Shed Shaker, that was why that was in my head. Yeah, just down the colder in lovely Castle Main. So they're they're still in the same precinct, but they're moving into a much larger and more substantial space from the original brewery that that's happening as well.
00:06:44
Speaker
that They're another one of these breweries that have a really strong connection with live music, which seems to have served them really well and just the community they have around them as well. Castlemanes, they call it North Northgate. For those outside of Victoria, it's it's a very yeah it it does feel like part of Melbourne's sort of inner suburbs. very um very trendy place, pretty hard to buy a house these these days, unless you can afford it. But yeah, really big community focus and and and they've always um tapped into the live music well, which Gatsmaine sort of lives off basically. And still part of that mill market, sort of the mill area there. So if you are up with the family, you can easily lose them into you know the ice cream store or the ah
00:07:29
Speaker
into the vintage market for a while if you want to have a few beers and a pizza. And in terms of a bit of blowing our own trumpet, a bit of self publicity, the Wheatie event that we mentioned first time last week is almost sold out now. So if you fancy joining us with the team at the Wheatie and Brian from Flavour Logic and a few other special guests on November the 27th then there's only a handful of tickets left for that. So jump on quick details in the Crafty Pine Events Diary.
00:07:53
Speaker
um and also very much self publicity. um I was invited on ah the Do Landers podcast a few weeks ago, interviewing people that I guess they think have done stuff. So chatting about my career sort of pre-beer and then getting into Crafty Pint and good beer week and various things.
00:08:09
Speaker
um a little bit about where we see the future of Crafty Pine going. So the Doolander's podcast on the usual platforms will include it in the show nights here as well, if you really would want to hear me talking about myself and my life for 40 minutes or
Holgate Brewhouse's 25-Year Legacy
00:08:22
Speaker
so. um And I guess that brings us to um the main interview this week. So Holgate. Yeah, all guys yeah to Holgate. They've been celebrating 25 years all year. They've done it with a lot of really fun beer releases. We were lucky enough to head up and chat with pull and ta at at their brew pub. It's a really good talk with genuine pioneers of the industry. People who've been doing it have been running a family run business for longer than just about anyone in the country. And yeah, we won't go too much into what what we talk about. ah It covers a lot of ground, but it was just really nice to have the two of them.
00:08:56
Speaker
on there to sort of walk down memory lane and also talk about the current economy and beer industry and their their take on it as well. Yeah, and how you managed running a business for 25 years through all the changes that have been you know in the industry and whilst raising two kids who at times have worked in the business as well. um Yeah, no it was it was good fun to get up
Wrap-Up and Call to Subscribe
00:09:14
Speaker
there. um Excellent, and so we'll get to that in a minute. Before then, don't forget to like and subscribe if you're enjoying the show and um we'll see you next week. is Cheers. Cheers.
00:09:30
Speaker
Hello, welcome back. We're here with Paul and Tash Holgate at the Hotel in Woodend. How are you going, guys? Good, thanks. yep Very well, thanks. Excellent. Thanks for having us up here. um Now, we're here, obviously, this is your 25th year as Holgate Brewhouse. I think the anniversary itself was maybe a few weeks ago now. um I guess, first thing, how does it feel to have made its 25 years as brewery, even what you small business owners and brewery owners?
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah, regardless of, with a brewery, just a small business, um it's a pretty amazing milestone. Oh, for sure. For sure. You know, we really can't believe we've hit 25 years. Yeah, it's ah it's a long time. yeah yeah so yeah Yeah, more than half my life and and most of yours. Most of my life, yeah. do you have Did you have any expectations that it would go this long or is this, you know, did did you dream this? this would now Look, we did. To be honest, well, I did. I suppose when it was actually 30 years ago when we first did the business plan, 97, and um I suppose I did use Coopers as a bit of an inspiration and hence we used our family name and so on. So I imagine, not only for a dream, but I imagine that um
00:10:38
Speaker
100 years from now would still be a family owned business. um That's probably not going to happen because the kids are going on and done their own careers already. But um yeah, no, we didn't know that there was going to be a massive craft beer revolution and the exponential growth and all that and all the players coming in. But um we had hoped that we were starting a business that would have longevity.
00:10:58
Speaker
And had you looked at other businesses other than Coopers that sort of gave you inspiration? You know, were there because there wouldn't be much in Australia doing what you were doing to sort of be a template, you know. I think yeah on wineries too, you know, you see a lot of long term wineries around. There's definitely some in this particular area, but in other parts as well. So there there was there was something there that john yeah we could try and emulate.
00:11:26
Speaker
And yeah have you thought about the succession now that if the kids have got their own separate careers? Because we actually did a lovely story recently about the Sunshine Coast oldest brewery where the owners have just passed it on to their youngest daughter. ye and But that's such a rarity, like it did actually have, I think in this day and I used to sort of have a business passed on. Because it's had a lot of children as well. That's right. Maybe a little bit late to keep you home on that front. Yeah. I mean, the kids are ah still quite young. They're in their early to mid 20s. So, you know, who knows? Maybe their kids. Maybe their kids. But this is our superannuation. So um at some stage, we've got to realise that and we've got other investors in there too. So it's more complicated than just um giving it away to to the kids. So yeah.
00:12:11
Speaker
and um and In terms of um you know the 25 years, have there been times where you thought maybe we won't make it this far? but yeah I mean, you've been beaten for a pretty interesting time of big growth, but also a lot of challenges for the beer industry. Absolutely. Especially the the last few years have been particularly hard. so ah Covid was a huge roller coaster ride. One stage we're thinking, how are we going to manage, you know, our business was closed, the our hotel was closed. Job keeper kicked in, yeah was like really die. We just didn't didn't know. So that was, yeah. And then all the other, um you know, pubs and hotels and restaurants that we sold to also had to shut.
00:12:55
Speaker
But then um people started drinking at home. I suppose in the early days too, when we was about three years after we started um our brewing company, we took over this pub and had to renovate it. And that was a pretty ah wild time. And, and um um you know, I think I had some shares from the company I used to work for that were supposed to be one of the reasons we went into the hotel venture that was going to fund the renovation and all that. And um and that they they dived and didn't get anything out of it. So um there was some tricky times back then when we first took over this pub. And also, you know, we we never had run a hospitality venue before. So just getting used to all of that, managing chefs and front of house and got housekeepers. So besides the whole brewery side of our business, we've been managing a hospitality business too.
00:13:47
Speaker
And did you have the accommodation straight away as soon as you took over this hotel as well? No. So this was year three that you took over this place and renovated it? So you just focused on hospital first? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because the whole place needed renovation. It had gone out of business. yeah So we literally turned took a left turn from our original business plan to um run a ah hotel. And it's not like, you know, it's just a brewery bar in a industrial estate or something, it's actually a historic hotel. So it needed to be renovated, it needed to be run, I think, in 2005. So in 2004, we opened up the accommodation. yeah So yeah, so that's been running 20 years now. And a lot of it was DIY, so I did a lot of the work in renovations and
00:14:26
Speaker
you know putting on suites into the room, building walls up there, painting, doing all that stuff. While still trying to brew the beer. While still trying to brew the beer. In those days it was just one person making the beer and that was me. Plus we also had two very young kids. Plus we had two very young kids. So we weren't exactly going out there visiting pubs and bottle shops and selling the beer. The beer was just really being sold by word of mouth and through um, uh, distributors and agents. So, um, we were just sort of just organically growing, really. Yeah. And just going back to what you're saying about that this is the the threat, during the COVID lockdowns, I mean, how significant a part of the business was the brew pub, you know, the the pub side of things for you when it shut down. Was it, you know, was it a significant percentage of the overall Hallgate business? Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, we've we've always had a fairly even split between Pac and Kegg. So basically when all Kegg
00:15:23
Speaker
business died, yeah which was a huge blow for us. And the pub is obviously it's a business in itself um and it supports 20 staff or 25 staff or whatever it is. So it's regardless of of the how the brewery was affected by COVID, the pub is its own business and it's affected as well.
00:15:42
Speaker
What was it like on that last weekend knowing you were going to have to shut down the pub? Did you have a bit of a knees up or anything or or did you save that for when you could reopen again just a few months later? I think we were really in in shock and I remember you know just walking through the hotel because it's you know it's a decent size hotel and you know no one was here and Yeah, really quite sad. A very depressing time, essentially, looking back on that and yeah you're coming through the bar, which is normally vibrant and just no one no one around. So yeah, it was crazy, weird times. yeah And following that, of course, the you know the financial
00:16:18
Speaker
economic crisis that we're in at the moment and still in that hasn't been fun for anyone in the in in business in whether it's um hospitality or brewing or construction or general retail. It's ah been a difficult time for business. Have you found all your locals and regulars still supporting you though? just Yes, the best i can yeah ah but best I can. I mean, we, I think like all um hospitality and retail businesses have seen a drop and that's what you know the government was after and you know in trying to reduce inflation. So yeah, it has affected our business, both the hotel business and the brewery business. but
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah, we've got a really, um you know, good, loyal, local as well as, you know, visitors, you know, who still come up. It's a nice, it's a really nice town to visit to. Yeah, we have it' a a fair um slice of our income from our hotel is tourism business. So it is, we definitely deliberately did that and built this venue up as a tourist destination um in the late 2000s when we Finally got the combination rolling and got into you know running a pub. We definitely did a lot of work on on marketing the venue as ah as a tourist destination. So that's been something very successful that was never really ah part of our original business plan was to run our hotel.
00:17:44
Speaker
So it's been um it's been great for for the business but hard on us. But I think like right now, you know, the weather is just getting better and better every day. yeah And, you know, people are sort of feeling that there's a bit of relief coming soon. So they, you know, we really are seeing Yeah, sort of a ah bit of an uptick. so Compared to the um the GFC, which was, I don't know, 2007, that was barely a blip. There was nothing. We were still growing. The industry was still growing. So I don't think any breweries felt anything um back then regarding you know financial crisis.
00:18:25
Speaker
That our focus on hospitality and accommodation, where did that come from? Because it's not that long ago that Brewpub wasn't a word, sort of, we had in Australia breweries, we're all in industrial areas and having that focus on food as much as the beer and all that. Did you see it elsewhere or did you take over the building and go, we know we've got something really special here? I think a bit of both. So, you know, we had seen that um model in the the US yeah ah and I think I've always had a passion and a, um and that sort of dream of having my own hotel one day. So, yeah, that it was probably a conversation. Definitely shot right yeah we did we did part of our business plan was we got started with the brewery at our at our house. and um and All that effort for two or three years. Yeah, yeah that's right. and um And the intention was, yes, we knew we needed to have some sort of cellar door somewhere that needed to be in some sort of touristy destination. We never thought we'd run a hotel though. But yeah, following um our observation in the US, and we and I suppose it was one of the inspirations for starting the business back in 97 when we were on holidays there, um we um we you know ah brew pubs were definitely a thing in the States. And we quickly realized once we got started, then we were selling beer. So going back to the 25 years, our first sales were in November of 99.
00:19:49
Speaker
We first started selling beer. It was completely opposite to what we expected. We had anticipated that we could sell 80% of our production in kegs to local pubs. um And that wasn't to be the case. So none of them had had a beer before. Yeah, yeah, we quickly had. I think it was referred back back then as home brew. Home brew here, mate.
00:20:12
Speaker
that That was the typical response. yeah But so we quickly realised, yeah, we need to realise our own outlet. um And we looked at many, many different options in Greenfield, so it's around here and so on. But this this pub had come up, at least some of it had come up, and um it's close to the train stage, it's the middle of the town, it's an existing licence. There was space out the back um to put the brewery and to develop later on.
00:20:39
Speaker
So, all those numbers added up to say, let's try and jump into it. And I know you've done a lot of work with it, but it does feel like this is part of the Holgate story, because you obviously have the British background. A lot of the beers have been traditional beers early on and throughout the career. yeah So, to come in somewhere like this and feel like you're in an English pub, certainly in the front bar. And yeah it's good bones at the end of the day. No, it's definitely part of our DNA, part of it the heritage of our brand is definitely associated with those traditional styles of beer, which as you say, go go with this pub. Yeah. And what were the backgrounds beforehand? I know you sort of did a fair bit of travel with work and were trying beers like, you know, Hergarden Overseas. And so what were the two of you doing before you you sort of dropped everything and went, okay, we're going to be a brewing business. ah One step back, we um we met at Uni. yeah So we both studied science and chemistry. Yeah.
00:21:31
Speaker
Yes. And then we, so we we met at Melbourne Uni in the chemistry library way, way back in the day. everyone Who made the
00:21:49
Speaker
technical laboratory roles and then we both went into sort of selling business business type roles. And ah so we moved up to Woodend from Melbourne back in 92 and ja so we did a commuting up and down from Woodend to Melbourne and we thought you know, like to have kids at some stage and it would be good not to have to do the commute and to do something local. But there were no no jobs here, local and wouldn't in those days. So we had to create, our so part of the reason for starting the business was to create our own jobs um and to, you know, do something that we're passionate about. And I was a passionate home brewer.
00:22:34
Speaker
um already um from the early 90s. And we had seen a few small breweries in the US from holidays, just happened to be um doing a road trip around Colorado and bumped into a couple of little breweries, don't even know what they were called um in in Denver itself, but also in Aspen. um And um yeah, so we we decided, hey why't why don't we do this? hadn't Didn't really know of any other breweries, hadn't come across mountain goat as yet, because there we were living in Morden and they're in Melbourne and all that sort of stuff. And there was no no real sort of internet back then.
00:23:08
Speaker
So, um yeah, so we we started the bureauru brewery here and their business here because um we lived here, um not because we thought Wood End was going to be a craft beer mecca or anything like that. And then you've touched on the other breweries of which there were very few. What about the sort of, I guess, the infrastructure and, you know, how to go about ingredients or knowledge sharing of those kind of things in those early days? It wouldn't have been anyone to lean on that. No, it was really hard. It was really hard. and Even going back a step, home brewing in the early 90s, again, there's no internet, it was just books. So all like all the books you get your hands on to learn, um ah you know sorry, all the recipes and so on instructions was just from books. And most of them, well, all of them in those days were Euro-focused, so British books and European ales, like yeah but Belgian beers and German wheat beers and British sales. That's what I was brewing as a home brewer, because they were the books you could get get hold of.
00:24:06
Speaker
And then fast-forwarding, yeah, in engineering-wise, I mean, we we bought i a um off-the-shelf small brewing kit secondhand from New Zealand. But um in terms of installing it, running it, spare parts, bits and pieces, ingredients, it was really difficult. or I can remember ah driving over to Ballarat um to Joe White with a trailer and picking up a ton of malt. And that's how we used to get our malt. We'd go across there and and pick it up.
00:24:31
Speaker
I think Bintani were around and first met Pete Meddings back then. Pete kicked off in the mid-90s, I think, didn't he? Yeah, and I was able to start buying hops from him. But yeah, there was no real assistance. But I quickly joined on to the US Craft Brewers Association back then and was on forums. So I used to post questions and learn a bit of stuff from the US forums, actually.
00:25:00
Speaker
and i And in terms of the first beers that you made, can you you remember your first brew day, what that was like? Was it successful? Did the beer make it? It was long. people's mouth It was long brew day. So I suppose yeah um the 25th anniversary, um we couldn't pick a date. Well, what was the anniversary? We incorporated the business in May 99. installed the plant and brewing kit in September the first brews in October the first sales in November so we didn't so we just done a whole year of of celebrations if you like um but yeah the very first very first brew day we had two beers that we were going to brew um and release which was a Whit beer so Hoo Garden style and a British ESB style
00:25:41
Speaker
which we actually called Old Pale Ale then because we didn't want to say extra special bitter because we thought Aussies wouldn't know what bitter was. They would think we were supposed to be a VB or something like that. And we had the guy from New Zealand who designed the um the brewing kit. um He came over. We bought him over as a consultant for a week to help us do the first brews to scale up from my 20 litre home brew to um to the full scale. um And I remember the very first day was long. We're still out there at 11 o'clock at night. um Had this idea of using hot flowers. um So there was no hop back or anything like that. So we remembered
00:26:18
Speaker
taking out part of the wort and um soaking the um the yeah into ah into a big bin with the hot flowers in there and then straining it back into the kettle and all sorts of crazy stuff that I never did again. So, quickly learned some lessons. Straining the port would be like the sort of, you know, the colander from the kitchen or something. Yeah, all that stuff.
00:26:36
Speaker
And what was it like being around all this, you know, I guess being involved in the start of the business, but also did did you have your first kid then or? Yes, so there was a young mother. Yes. Partly new business starting. Hasn't gone rogue. Pashing stuff in the back of the house and driving off to pick up a ton of malt here, you know. Oh, yeah, it was it was crazy, crazy time, crazy time. And yeah, I remember the the first bottling day we had, you know, family ah help us. It was almost like, you know, you see Italians making the pasta sauce. We had all the family there, you know, bottling the beer. And yeah, was it looking back, it was really crazy. ah
00:27:24
Speaker
You were at home at the stage on maternity leave, I think. and No, it not not then. yeah Not then. So ah so we we had... So working we were both working full-time and started this business part-time. We also had a 12-month-old baby. And also what we didn't realise is, yeah, I was pregnant with the next one too. Just get it all out of the way. you just certainly it's Just really wild. We actually did have a conversation about it. And um I said, well, if we wait until we're going to have a family now, if we wait until the kids are older,
00:27:58
Speaker
um I think I won't have any um any energy perhaps to do it then and I'm excited about doing it now and so we ended up doing it. um so yeah but yeah it was It was hard because I was working a day job in Melbourne. I'd do the brewing on Saturday morning so to to um spend time with the family and help Tash with the kids and staff. Saturday mornings I'll be out to do the brew at six. So then by lunchtime it'll be done and then I can have the rest of the rest of the Saturday with the family. So um yeah, it was pretty hectic. And after coming home from work, I'd have to go out and do a transfer or clean kegs and fill kegs or do something or other.
00:28:34
Speaker
And you you're saying that when you were going to approach venues, they were very much this homebrew. We don't want it. What about the reaction from the earliest drinkers that tried your beers? Did did did you get much so direct feedback? You know, we were able to sort of pass beers to people face to face.
00:28:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think the there was um excitement because it was something different. And there were styles of beer that weren't readily available. So there there definitely was excitement and ah encouragement for us to keep going. Yeah. Yeah, ah great. Well, on that note, we'll take a short break and then we'll come back and chat a bit more about the 25th year celebrations. So we'll see you in a minute. Cheers. Cheers.
00:29:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to another Bintani brewery booster. I'm joined by Sam, technical sales specialist at Bintani. Great to be here. Sam, we're here to talk all about optimising yeast kinetics and sensory performance. What a sexy topic. Exactly, I'm sure all these breweries have picked up. Who brewers you don't know about yeast kinetics, what can you tell us about it? Why does it matter? So when we work in the fermentation space, on the east side, fermentation kinetics really just refers to the speed that a fermentation will take place over. um When you're looking at the speed of a fermentation, a lot of brews will tend to sit between an ale or lager fermentation, a general temperature, and a general expectation of how long that fermentation will take. But it's a really interesting area to focus on when you're looking to change flavour variables, optimise your production or just make sure everything's on track.
00:30:11
Speaker
Right, so how doobaroos change a beer's sensory profile without necessarily changing the yeast? So without changing the yeast, we've got a sort of set for starting ingredients and materials, but we've got the parameters within our fermentation that we can look at to know what I will change in flavour profiles.
00:30:27
Speaker
A particular, I guess, easy area in one regard would be pitrate with your yeast. Go on low, medium or high. That will influence different characteristics of ester production from certain yeast strains and also the viral mouth feel and flavour and those sort of things.
00:30:43
Speaker
And also our fermentation temperature becomes really important. Again, a lot of breweries will have sort of set temperatures that they work on regularly. There's a lot of really good advice and information over the last few years about how to change those variables, even those 2-3 degrees and potentially even higher that will really either yield a flavour difference or a flavour improvement for the brewery. and are there places breweries can find out more?
00:31:06
Speaker
Yes, so our partners fermenters have a great range of studies called Make Your Choice that have a huge availability of data on different fermentation variables and how they influence the perception of their different strains in different ways. Hit us up on any of those and there are ways if you're using any of those sort of strains and more broadly just sort of see what you might be able to change and play around with to get a different outcome with your beer.
00:31:27
Speaker
Great, Sam, and how do people contact you? Hit us up at sales at bentani.com.au and we'll come and say goodbye to a trade show or when we're out and about. Thanks for joining us, Sam. Cheers and back to the show.
00:31:44
Speaker
Welcome back and Will and Tasha tell us about 25 years like you spent a lot of the year celebrating it. How's it feel? Yeah it's um it's been a big year, exciting year. um it's It's been great to to do the 25 years. Ambitious. Yes it's been yeah quite ambitious but it's been really good in and the the brewery team have been fantastic producing the different beers. It's been fun to do the collaborations with the other breweries. The marketing and design team have been amazing coming up with, you know, different concepts and to marry our ideas with a look that can sort of convey our message across to people. It's been great.
00:32:35
Speaker
I think there's a couple of highlights really lead like the collaborations. We did nine collaborations with brewers who formerly work for us or got their start with us and wherever they're working at the moment, that's been fun to reconnect. It must be fun as well to go, oh my God, we've had this influence on all these other reasons. Yeah, they're talking about people who own their own breweries now. Yeah, it is humbling. And look, we are really proud of that, that we've been in a bit of a nursery in some ways for a lot of people coming through the business.
00:33:07
Speaker
But yes, that's that's um that's we' we're really proud of that. And I suppose one of the other um um things that we've had a lot of fun with this year is, as Tash mentioned, is um the different institutions and different artwork concepts to our brands and having fun with it and making around with it because it's nice. A lot of special releases means you don't have to be too serious all the time or whatever. So we've had we've had a lot lot of fun with the branding, which has been fun.
00:33:33
Speaker
And I think it's also been a year in which most people actually pulled back on their limited release schedules just because of the the way the market is. I mean, there's a few notable exceptions, um but I guess having a reason behind why you're doing it.
00:33:47
Speaker
has probably helped. I mean, it seems to me the beers have gone really well, you know, to actually be putting out that because it's not just 25 beers or the impact as well um at a time when people aren't doing that. But have you found there's been real interest and almost like a renewed interest in Holgate as a result? For sure. And and I think and I think that's um been great, great marketing value. And and look honestly, that's one of the reasons we did 25 years of beers because I think Oh wow, um that's a lot, we shouldn't do that. And not all of them have been in pack. but yeah It's been good to also do a lot of different styles. So from ah some very classic styles. said
00:34:21
Speaker
you know, bringing out the ESP again, but, you know, in a really nice looking 500 mil can. It's been a highlight for me. The can is, you know, I missed having it in the pack. It's been out of the pack for a few years and reintroducing that in a 500 mil can. And, you know, it's always been on hand pump here, but to have that in the pack but the pack looks great and you design and that's been a real highlight for me. Yeah and and I love my hoppy beers so you know some of the IPAs we've done. The Dank was really Dank AF, the West Coast ah IPA was yeah very well received and you know you're right James there's been a lot of lot of positive feedback and a lot of people we feel have been you know waiting for the next one and there's you know it's it's created ah it's create an expectation and
00:35:06
Speaker
We haven't been ones to do a lot of special releases each year over the course of our history. That hasn't been us about rolling out a monthly release, something like that. So this has been different for us. 26 years of beers next year. Not quite. We'll be winding that back slightly. But I'm assuming some of them will come back. I mean, you mentioned the... like that was a great beer, like a great use of terpenes, but on top of a, you know, a really excellent, you know, flavoursome, dry, you know, lean and west coast bass. Is that, do you reckon that will come back next year or some of the other ones? It may do, may do, yeah. We'd love to see some of them back and it might just be keg only, we're not sure. We might do them like maybe every two years as just something
00:35:50
Speaker
It's always a challenge. You've already got a fair few that you bring out every year. but anyway like It's definitely a challenge to pick the right ones because, you know, you just might miss it and and in out in consumer land, they've been there and done that one and and they don't buy it the next year. So it's hard to pick that really hard. And that's one of the whole challenges of, the you know, running a ah production business that's based on um on consumers, you know, getting into it is that, you know, you can always never really pick um what might happen.
00:36:18
Speaker
And aside from the stuff that you've done yourself, have you had any messages from, you know, old friends in the industry or maybe, you know, old customers or little customers getting back in touch and going, you know, just sharing memories or just, you know, pat on the back? Definitely. There's lots of people revisiting some back stock of some of the old big beers and things like that. It's a good chance, too. Good chance. And definitely via social media, we've had a lot of a lot of old colleagues and brewers from the industry and consumers reaching out. And people have dropped in here too, just to say hi and congratulations on reaching 25 years. So it's been really nice. And I mean, one of the things we haven't really said is how grateful we are for our customers, our staff, our suppliers,
00:37:08
Speaker
investors, financiers, you know, they all they've all made it possible. in way why And you've you've done um had a fair few like long standing loyal staff over the years as well. People have been with you for a decade or more as well. So that must help with some consistency and the whole great story as well to retain people that way. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean,
00:37:32
Speaker
there wouldn't be Hallgate without our staff and our long-term staff are are gold. Yeah. And in terms of, I know we've touched upon, you know, family with the kids being involved before, you know, that they've had roles within the business. that they Do they get involved with volunteering or so helping out at any major events and stuff? Or are they like, we've done that, we've done our ah penances as teenagers that we've done. I think I think it's generally they've done their penances teenagers. dumb um Now they definitely um when they were old enough we're working in the business um like you know hospitality and um James a bit um in in production with you know running the kegger here and there and on uni holidays or school holidays things like that. But we I mean it was good we were able to you know give them a job to help them you know support them living in Melbourne while they
00:38:19
Speaker
went to uni, but yeah, they they've now finished all their studying and the they're trying to handle other things. We never push them to to do you know do what to do one thing. They you know do whatever you want to do in your your life. this is This is our life is what we've decided to do. It doesn't mean that's what you guys have to do. say um Yeah, what about working in the business together? um ah There's not that many family-run breweries in Australia, certainly not as many that have been around as you, and someone's going to email us and correct us, but but how do you sort of balance it's that? It's really difficult. Don't ever get into a business with your partner. No, seriously, it's it's that's been one of the challenges. It's not that hard. you know
00:39:03
Speaker
kitchen table boardroom meetings. It kind of never ends. its it's just all like But I suppose one of the things we do is we, like some, some responsibilities pulled us some responsibilities, I do. And then there is responsibilities that we both do which is the the bits that get a bit tricky. But also I think particularly probably in the past 10 years and probably particularly when the kids were teenagers we made a real um effort not to talk about work at home um and it was impossible not to but if you at least have a real
00:39:39
Speaker
then yeah at least you're reduced it by half or something like that. yeah the times The times you do, you really have to be talking about it. But in the first at least in the first 10 years, um we would have definitely been talking about stuff you know over dinner, and whether it be a new label that came through, or we've got a new customer, or an issue to do with finances, or whatever it might be. but And sometimes we're both like really passionate about something, but in a different way, so we have to try it. So definitely lots of lots of arguments over the years, as you could expect. And did the kids spend a fair bit of time in here sort of running around I like one of your former Brewers Nick who's got Molly Rose and the one of the collaborations you've done with this year. Often when I've been in there, says been running around and crawling under the tables was there that kind of thing going on here over the years as well. Yeah, a little bit. Um, yeah.
00:40:28
Speaker
ah yes and Yes and no, or like ah definitely like school holidays and when they were really little, um yeah, they were around. But then we also tried hard to give them a proper normal life as- Whatever normal is, away from away from our business and away from- Scalding, scalding hot tanks. Yeah, so I mean, you know, ah we we always had dinner at home.
00:40:56
Speaker
around the kitchen table and but we we felt that was important and in the early days when when I was working here on the weekends you you were there elizabethber de kes here to look after them so yeah but I mean all all the stuff knew you who the kids were and yeah and they'd come off the, later on when they were older they'd come off the school bus and walk into the walk into the pub, come up to the office, they go to the chefs, come up to the office to see, um, mum, let's go, let's go, let's go, and that stage, you know, there was no real urgency to get them home, so she'd be trying to, finishing off her work, he'll be there soon, and so they'll... They used to, to walk into the pub, straight into the kitchen, and see if there were any leftover chips from lunch service, grab a handful of chips, and then come upstairs to
00:41:50
Speaker
But it was, um in some ways, luxury, running our own business locally, where the kids were going to school too. So in the early days, when they were akin to primary school, Tash was able to work school hours um and pick the kids up and take them home. So um that was a real a real nice family thing we were able to to do.
00:42:08
Speaker
And in terms of, you know, in the 25 years since you launched, there's essentially been so much change in the industry. Obviously, the first few years you were around, it would have been slow growth, you know, just people learning what this new thing was. And I guess you and a few others doing the real groundwork. Then you've been through this period of, you know, insane growth, especially the 2010s.
00:42:29
Speaker
and covid then now we're in ah in ah I guess a culture now where craft beer is much more known about, but also there's been different challenges. I mean, what do you think has been key to you guys surviving and making it through? Like, have you had, you know, has there been adaptation of the business evolution? Like, what do you think has been key to Holgate staying strong all this way through? Bloody-minded perseverance. We're going to make it happen. yeah um then like That's you know a bit of a joke, but it is true to some some degree. yeah but I think also adaptability, taking on board feedback, taking on board um you know staff, brochure suggestions, what we should be making.
00:43:11
Speaker
But we've also been fairly, um I think we're pretty easy to work with. So we're not we're very much not overbearing looking over your shoulder type bosses. So we give ah staff a lot of flexibility and responsibility. We say this is your job, you do it. So and I think that I think staff enjoy that generally about working with us and and And it may be less so now, but particularly in the early days, the first 10 years, for 10 years, it was, you know, the people are part of the family. um And um it, I think that's, that's, that's, I mean, part of our, part of the, as you say, staying in business, being successful.
00:43:47
Speaker
surviving has been having good staff around for sure and and running this type of very informal business, I suppose is what I'm getting at. We run a very informal business and still do. um So that's um that's certainly helped us to survive. um We've obviously had um um support from you know financial institutions and from our investors as well.
00:44:10
Speaker
um since the early days. So yeah, that's all helped. That has helped us. it Sounds like a very understanding, obviously. So while it's been Tasha and I um running the business, driving the business or coasting along with the business, whatever we've we've been doing, um we're we're the ones that have been doing that. But behind, we've had some we've had some support yeah from financial institutions. We bought the freehold of this of this property.
00:44:36
Speaker
um And we did a lot of expansions and we had some investors in, we got support from banks and so on. So yeah. We got the ah a bit of a government grant. Government grant from State Government One Stage. So I suppose all those things go go together. um But yeah, you're right. There's been a lot of different manifestations of the industry from the early days where it's just starting. It wasn't core craft. It was boutique beer or microbreweries, things like that.
00:45:00
Speaker
um When the 2010s came along, we were we were already at capacity now, our little capacity. So we were then planning for the next step for quite a few years and implementing that. So we probably missed out on that massive boom that came during the 2010s. So yeah, it's been an interesting um but change in the industry. We've also seen wooden change too. it It's really grown. A lot lot more people had moved in from from Melbourne. at it's ah It's a great place to to live and It's become easier to commute to with over the 25 years with different sections of the freeway opening up. um A lot of it was single single lane um back in those days. so At the end of the day, we wanted to create a place where we would also enjoy just coming to and chilling. Yeah. And yeah but even then we still do. The region around here is great as well. All the towns and you know villages around here have all got a personality and there's now a bit of a network of
00:45:58
Speaker
local breweries as well and and a few pubs that support being really well something that must have helped I'd imagine that some of them must have looked and gone well it was worked for Holgate you know we yeah we can make it work as well because you know there's a fair few other towns around here you can go visit yeah and call into the local brewery. yeah as best also ah like one One of the pubs, the palps Cosmopolitan Hotel in Trenton, they've been supporting us right from the start. so Yeah, we have had some local support. Yeah, the Lake House too. Lake House. They supported us right from the start. Oscar and her team have been supporting local produce generally and including our beer.
00:46:36
Speaker
So that's been fantastic. In Dalesford, we've generally had support. um The Farmer's Arms were an early customer of ours, as was the Cosmopolitan in Trentham. So yeah, we've had great local support over the years. It's interesting you mentioned local, I guess, because that's almost become more of part of the vernacular around beer in the last few years again. Was that your strongest selling point early on? Or was it that it was something different? And i and has that been like a cyclical thing coming back going on now? Local is a really good selling point for us.
00:47:05
Speaker
i think the local has always been a selling point for for us, you know, right from right from the start. And also the fact, you know, it's a family business. And also, yeah, we're offering different styles of beer. So we've always had ah different styles of beers as part of our range. and then And that taps into the tourism market then as people want to travel up and buy something local, it's produced locally where they're going. Whether it be they're going to visit um an area that's got local cheese makers or whatever, when they go there they like to try um the local drop and um drink it there and then take it home.
00:47:43
Speaker
And we we've always supported the local wineries here as a venue and it's great now this local spirit makers tune out so we can expand that whole local side of things.
00:47:58
Speaker
And what do you make going back to the wider beer industry? Like what's your take on it? Is it exploded in a way you never thought it would or how how did you sort of imagine it going if you can think back 25 years ago? Personally, I think it's exploded way more than I ever ever thought it would. um Yeah, we never never expected to see such a massive explosion of of the number of um breweries, yeah.
00:48:20
Speaker
But there's also like a huge explosion of interest, you know, that, you know, I think a lot of people do enjoy craft beer, which is great. And okay, there's a lot more competition now too. But that, I suppose goes. They feed on days, I suppose over the years, and that's one of the trends we've seen, they feed on each other. The number of breweries are out there and the number of people interested in it. and that creates competition, okay, about new releases, for instance. Okay, I gotta get something new, what's new, what's new, what's new. That's something that we've always struggled with. It's really hard to come up with something new every single month. So- It costs a lot too. So we never anticipated that, Will, for sure, that there will be that level of demand from consumers on breweries too. And that then sends you down different pathways of ice cream beers or whatever that we never really got into. That's not really part of our DNA.
00:49:18
Speaker
What we're enjoying seeing now is that renewed interest in more classic styles. I was about to say there's been this sort of swing back to like almost nostalgic reminiscence of you know something with the bigger brands like trying to bring back rashes or powers or whatever and that probably helps someone like yourselves who've got 25 years to lean upon and those classic beer styles.
00:49:39
Speaker
yeah Yeah, absolutely. And we do see ourselves as ah as a heritage brand, um heritage Australian brand, let alone whether we're craft or whatever, we're we're independent brewery, we started off as independent brewery, the word craft wasn't used. um We definitely, a part of our DNA are those, you know, more European style beers that I was making as a homebrew in the 90s and leaning back on my, um my English heritage. So You know, the ESBs, the Brown Ales, German Weitzen beers, these type of things, we're were having a renaissance, we feel. I can't believe we made it this far into the chat before you mentioned it. To be honest. um But and if you, over over the years, have those sort of beers been like the mainstay in terms of popularity? Have you found your more traditional sort of classic beers have been the ones that have tended to always keep ticking over?
00:50:30
Speaker
They're ticking over, but not the main volume sales. Our biggest selling beer is the Macedon Ale. Since we've released it, it has been. 2001. And two thousand and one and we we it's now available in cans as well as bottles. And we thought maybe the cans might cannibalize. And it's it's like a number one beer is Macedon. And then number two beer is Macedon cans. So, you know, it's and It's interesting with the bottles as well, like that you've obviously maintained that and have the ability to do so. I know like Hargroves, they've kept putting certain of their beers in bottles as well when no one else did, because it means there's a but market they can access that no one else is really going after. Because that's something you always intend to keep the bottles rather than sort of, yeah you never plan to phase them out at all. We never plan to phase them out. I think at one stage, um we said um well we'll we'll be the only ones um with that with a bottle and that might lean to our our heritage.
00:51:26
Speaker
um So we obviously didn't maintain that. We needed to have cans. But um yeah, we definitely were thinking, look, let's just keep on with bottles because no one else will have bottles and there'll be a point of difference. um And there is there is part of that that is true and does work. But yeah, going back to your your question about the traditional styles and our heritage styles, they certainly have ticked over all these years and sometimes Some of them haven't been in the in the package, like our Herwe Weitzer, who mentioned it again, and and the ESB. But they've ticked over on the cake. Beers like our um our traditional German-style Pilsner. um We've had Goering since 2002. It's um selling more than it ever has. Even, if I can say, our traditional IPA. Pacific Northwest, you know, Oregon, Washington style ah IPA, our our road trip, which we released in 2008.
00:52:12
Speaker
And I think that's a real core part of our DNA too. That's selling more than it ever has. It's a great beer. So I think there's younger audiences who are coming through um that are um that are liking that sort of more more balanced style. um so And I appreciate we're going to get people coming into your the bar very shortly. So we should probably get it to our past, present, future. Yeah. So one question we like to ask is, is there anything you really wish you knew when you started way back 25 years ago?
00:52:42
Speaker
that we'd need a bigger budget for. There you go. yeahs sure To the point, I like it. And in terms of the present, if it there was someone getting into beer now, whether it is a brew pub model or, you know, the production side, the one bit of advice you'd give to a newcomer, have a bigger budget. a Deep pockets. Yeah, we'll pick you. I mean, have a really full understanding of what you want to achieve because You may not need deeper pockets if you're just gonna be a brew pub and just selling outside your own venue, that's it. and Through your own venue, and that's it. You don't necessarily need deep pockets. So understand what you wanna achieve. If you wanna be a national brand, then sure, you've gotta have deep pocket deep marketing pockets and and connections. yeah Yeah. Some friends are cold. Yeah, And do you have a big dream for the future? What's what's the sort of next 25 years look like?
00:53:37
Speaker
I think what we like to do is just um have a bit more freedom from the business. So, you know, ah still have whole gates, but just have a bit more time for, you know, Paul and I can have ah have a bit more leisure because it is all consuming. Well, it is all consuming. um But yeah, we've definitely got um a lot of energy still, got a lot of goals that we want to achieve. um We've got a big factory up there to fill. so And we've got, and as we've said before, we've got great stuff.
00:54:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think we probably also need to go a little bit. I was about to say, is that the key thing? Is it actually letting go? Do you actually really need to be doing all the stuff you're still doing? Yeah, exactly. No, we'd probably definitely love to have that as a bit of a goal. As the coming years as we get older, we still want to be involved in the business. But yeah, I suppose we'd definitely love to be able to have a bit more time off.
00:54:33
Speaker
When I rang you the other day, I could hear clattering in the background. I was like, Paul, are you on the bottling line again? You're like, yes, I'm just helping out with the packaging. It's like, mate, you've been in this 25 years. But I think that's also part of what makes the business what it is as well. You know, I'm good friends with your head brewer, Chris, and he loves the fact that you are that sort of, you know, boss, you know, that affects the fellow brewer as well, you know. So I'm sure it's, you know, part of the DNA of the business is that the Holgate's are still very much part of Holgate. Yeah, it is very much part of DNA. I suppose on the other side, on the flip side,
00:55:03
Speaker
A lot of owners um are not. in the brood, but they're out there selling beer, which helps which helps the business too. So I'm not really one who has done that over the years, which perhaps hasn't helped the business, but we're doing what we love doing, I suppose, at the end of the day. So that's part of the DNA. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that would love to be able to say they they do what they love doing. Well, that's great. Thank you for the chat. and Congratulations again on 25 years. at Thank you, Crafty, too, for your support. It's only been for 14 years. I'm a mere, mere pup.
00:55:34
Speaker
yeah And thanks yeah both you guys coming up today. Thank you for hosting us. Time for a beer. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you.
00:55:45
Speaker
The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website craftypint.com and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials.
00:55:59
Speaker
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