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Brewing Traditional Beers In The High Country
481 Plays2 months ago
We're pretty sure we've never seen anything close to the number of Oktoberfests taking place at breweries and bars around Australia as we're witnessing in 2024. So, as they started to ramp up, we sat down with Nathan Munt, co-founder and head brewer at King River Brewing, and a man who loves celebrating classic German and Belgian beer styles all year round.
He launched the brewery with his wife Brianna in the heart of the idyllic King Valley in the Victorian High Country back in 2016, with a lineup featuring an Altbier, Kolsch, and a style that had first made him fall in love with beer: a Belgian tripel called Waiting For Godot, for reasons explained in this episode of The Crafty Pint Podcast.
As well as sharing the story of how he went from a lover of food and wine to filling a garage with brewing equipment before swapping the world of banking for brewing trophy-winning beers, he discusses life running a small regional brewery, the joys of touring the High Country, sticking to his guns and brewing the styles he loves even as most of the industry was ignoring them, and his desire to see Kolsch properly understood and enjoyed in Australia. (Even if the pale ale he finally gave in and brewed five years after launching King River is now their best-seller...)
Links relevant to or referenced in the show:
Felons Brewing To Open Waterfront Venue In Manly: https://craftypint.com/news/3587/brisbane-based-felons-to-open-another-waterfront-venue-in-manly
Jervis Bay Brewing Co Become A B Corp Business: https://craftypint.com/news/3588/better-every-day-jervis-bay-become-a-b-corp
Behind Bars with Tristan Jallais of Natural Wine & Liquor: https://craftypint.com/news/3579/behind-bars-natural-science-wine-and-liquor
King River Brewing on The Crafty Pint: https://craftypint.com/brewery/352/king-river-brewing
Brew & A: Nathan Munt: https://craftypint.com/news/2942/brew-and-a-nathan-munt
Muntoberfest 2024: https://events.humanitix.com/muntoberfest-2024/tickets
To find out more about supporting the show or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact [email protected].
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Transcript
Introduction and Scenic Setting
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Crafty Point podcast. I'm Will. I'm James. How are you doing, Will? It's been a while since I've seen you in the flesh. Yes. Well, we're not in the flesh. We wouldn't normally do this, but if you normally just listen to this on Spotify, Apple or whatever, maybe jump across to YouTube whenever you have a chance because James is coming in with quite a splendid background behind him. Where are you, James?
Camping Adventures and Challenges
00:00:29
Speaker
Oh, what you can see behind me is Lake Becker. We're in Sunset National Park in the very sort of north west of Victoria. um I didn't even know until we pulled up here but there's some pink lakes, salt lakes that we're camping beside. um We've been riding our bikes across them and been for a few walks and stuff. You can probably hear a few flies buzzing around me but I've come up to the top of the dune away from the campsite to do this recording because we had a bit of a bee
00:00:53
Speaker
infestation yesterday so I'll send you all those messages saying we're in the most beautiful location can't believe you've never been here before and then yesterday we were invaded by about 3000 bees so it sort of rather rather took the shine off things but um I think we've worked out a means to survive until we head back so Fantastic. It's not, it's you're the bees or you're leaving them, leaving them alone. Well, there was discussion about heading back today and then it was like, no, then we've been defeated by the bees. We have to find a way at least one more time. But the thing is like bees is a sign of a healthy, you know, ecosystem. So we we can't be too begrudged them having found this little corner of Victoria where they can survive without being, you know, um wiped out. So. Excellent.
00:01:35
Speaker
Excellent. Well, um onto this
Craft Beer Expansion in Australia
00:01:38
Speaker
week's news. So there's been some some big stories over the last week, yeah um including Felons, Brisbane's Felons as that sit underneath the Story Bridge. They're setting up a new home in Manly.
00:01:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it' I guess it's second similar kind of story. Um, you know, in the greatest Sydney area in the past week or so, following on from mountain culture, moving into, um, red fern last week, but, um, yeah, I think it's, it's pretty interesting as well. You know, felons are obviously part of a um yeah bigger group. And they've got that absolutely incredible location on um the Brisbane River where they're doing great things and also making some pretty delicious and award-winning beer. And yeah, I mean, the location they found is going to be, you know, I guess not going to be quite the same as being under the Story Bridge Hotel, but another waterfront location. I mean, you you spoke to one of the guys at the brewery the other day. So what did they have to say?
00:02:28
Speaker
Yeah, I spoke to Dean. The owners of Howard Smith Wharves took over the space a little while ago and it's sort of always part of the plan to to put something like this in. It's going to be a tap room initially, but they're working on converting what was an Aldi actually into what what will be a brewery as well. So they'll have that sort of connected and they'll have space for live music in there as well. So they can have that events focus that they also have ah down on the Brisbane River too. Yeah, I mean it is kind of interesting. I mean we with all the stuff that's going on there are still new ah openings and people seeking opportunities that when you think about it's only a few weeks since St Andrews Brewery opened at Melbourne Park.
00:03:08
Speaker
And you know, Moondog hoping to open dog lands in the Docklands next to Marvel Stadium in the coming weeks. So, I mean, there's, yeah you know, craft beer is still in its own way, finding new new new spaces and new audiences. So, um what's the deadline for felons? And what are they hoping to welcome customers? So, say doors open for ah October 18th. So, they're actually, they're effectively renovating or redoing the venue while it's still open. um Seems like a pretty, pretty intense way to operate. But for those who know the area, I mean, if you've been to Four Pines, original home, their brew pub, it's, it's pretty close to that. ah Sort of not sure you'll be able to have a beer at Four Pines without potentially maybe spotting felons to a degree. Pretty much get off the ferry, turn right and you've got to choose two breweries.
00:03:55
Speaker
Yeah, basically. Yeah. Yeah. ah what I want to just add to the northern beaches and sort of craziness
Unique Bottle Shop Stories
00:04:01
Speaker
as well. They've got their, um you know, their Brooktoberfest coming up as well. So there's certainly plenty going on up up that way. um And then in terms of other stuff you've been working on, Will, this week you had a chat to Tristan at Natural um natural Science in one of Melbourne drinking bottle shops.
00:04:17
Speaker
Yeah, this is a great story. yeah it's It's online now. um It's, Tristan and Joyce opened it in the Eastern suburbs, suburb of Blackburn and in ah early 2022. I called in pretty, a few months into it. And one of the things that immediately blew me away about the space, um it's it's quite lovingly and sort of minimalist design, but You know, 2022 was a different time in craft beer. There was constant new releases. It feels like a hundred years ago and and it was such a curated bottle shop. They were really, Tristan's really thoughtful about what he brings in, which breweries beers he's got on with the wines and and of course, key to all that.
00:05:01
Speaker
is the fact that he only stocks all Australian product, whether that's mixers, craft beer, anything, and and but nothing owned by larger corporations. It's all what we would call indie beer, but across spirit. So um that that's a real rarity. And we spoke a lot about why that matters to him and why he thinks it matters now more than ever.
Sustainable Brewing Efforts in Australia
00:05:25
Speaker
yeah And the reason you did the spoke to him is um but obviously they've, I guess, evolved from a bottle shop recently.
00:05:31
Speaker
Yes, on the last couple of months, they've added a drinking option, which they always wanted. Local council um weren't really against the idea, but it was very, very foreign to them when they moved in and they they were new to the area as well. So they got the bottle shop open and did this. um And now you can drink in as well, which I think has sort of been pioneered by Melbourne. I think you see, whenever I've gone to bar bottle shops, like beer mash with people visiting from other countries like America, they're often pretty blown away by that experience of being able to like come to a place, have one beer on tap and then take four away or choose a bottle of Lambic from the fridge and drink that there or a bottle of wine or anything like that. it's um
00:06:17
Speaker
our Our licensing makes it um quite easy. And um yeah yeah, I think it's probably something that the Australian craft beer industry has that a lot of other countries ah um don't have, at least in the Anglo sphere. Yeah. No, it looks looks great out that way. And I guess he's hoping to see, you know, he reckons there's more space for more, I guess,
00:06:40
Speaker
curated and car crafty sort of venues out in that part of Melbourne as well. Yeah, he said the, literally the only place you can get a pint, like a tap beer in the area in his suburb is a huge pokies pub and like a Japanese restaurant where you can get Kirin while you're having your dinner as well. So like, yeah, even tap beer is pretty rare out there unless you want a very certain experience, which a lot of people don't want anymore. Yeah.
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, great stuff. And then and another story going out this week concerns Jarvis Bay, who've become the the latest Australian brewery to gain B Corp certification.
00:07:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So that's, um, that's just been announced. They would rob, I mean, they'll comfortably be the smallest. They join stone and wood, four pines, uh, brick lane and heaps normal as well. Um, and yeah, Jarvis Bay, smaller than them on the South coast, but have always made particularly sustainability a massive driver for them and what they do.
00:07:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and part of like what's a really thriving, um you know, brewing scene pretty much all the way down the south, um you know, head south from Sydney now, and there seems to be breweries pretty much the whole way. I know we've got a new listing for another brewery down that way coming on the site soon for, brow it's actually Brawley Brewhouse, I don't know if it's Brouley, like Creme Brulee, but Completely wrong. I've learned from ah Benny's listing you sent over the other day. so Well, Jervis as well. I'm glad you pronounce it right. yeah That way the first time because I've always assumed it was Jervis Bay. um And yeah, and and another story coming in the following week is one another um South Coast brewery that's got a massive focus on sustainability. so
00:08:22
Speaker
It's, I think it's interesting to see that, you know, despite everything that's going on, a lot of breweries are trying to be better citizens, um, you know, and, you know, really sort of, uh, find better ways to operate, which is, which is great to see. Um, so yeah. Yeah. Fantastic.
King River Brewing: A Journey and Regional Impact
00:08:37
Speaker
Uh, well, we won't leave you too long, James, cause you've got a holiday to get back to, but onto this week's guest, we were joined recently by Nathan Munt, co-founder of King River Brewing in, uh, Victoria's High Country.
00:08:50
Speaker
yeah i want and Yeah, he came in for a great chat. I guess we've been sort of onto them from fairly early on, being fond of, you know, I guess, traditional star beers. and They've got a beautiful location up in the King Valley. Nathan's always a good talker. I know you did an event with him for our...
00:09:05
Speaker
crafty Cabal the other day, Will, how did that go? we'd We'd left quite a long period for, you know, before the venue opened for him to chat. I'm sure, I'm assuming he filled most, most most of that time quite easily. Yeah, most of it was about Colesh. As is the upcoming discussion I imagine. Yeah. So no, people loved it. People people are always really taken back by Someone who has that story that's just so authentic, like brew really brewing beers that they want to make, um sort of going their own way. And it's just really cool to see, particularly, you know, and and I'm really against this point of view, like there can be a tendency in craft beer to get caught up in that, I guess, pessimistic thing of, oh, everything's just IPA now. And that's all that's going on and whatever. And it's like, well,
00:09:51
Speaker
I don't know, there's Belgian breweries in Australia run by Belgians now. like it's ah It's a pretty incredible industry we've got here that, yeah, they certain beer styles might not get the same attention, but there's people that are really devoting themselves to them. yeah Well, we seen i saw that and interest in the you know the English Ales article the other day that's prompted you to want to create a yeah hand pump locator on the crafty pint. And then when I mentioned that to someone, they're like, oh, you should do a side pour Luca tap.
00:10:21
Speaker
locator as well. So um I guess there are people with an interest in such, you know, specific, you know, I guess, classic styles. Well, someone i said actually on the English Ales article on Facebook, you know, what a surprise beers that have been beer styles that have been perfected for, you know, hundreds of years are actually really good.
00:10:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah Yeah, no, it'd be great. No, no, no, no. Nothing's always always good company um So yeah, we'll um we'll get cracking into that and I guess next week and we'll be back back in the same place again my as my my trip through the ah The Outback winds up. Yes, and ah enjoy the chat. Cheers. Cheers
00:11:02
Speaker
Okay, welcome back. We're here with Nathan Munt from King River Brewing. Nathan, how are you? I'm pretty good, yeah. Bit of a drive around Melbourne today doing deliveries, so a little bit tired, but otherwise pretty good. Well, the conversation will bring you back up. Oh, it will, absolutely. With sparkling bon vivants. Yeah, I love talking about beer, so I can feel it coming already. Excellent. um King River Brewing, do you want to tell us why you call King River Brewing? Yes, so our property is, ah backs under the King River in King Valley, North East Victoria. um And it seemed like the the most versatile thing to use that is synonymous with beer is like great fresh water. So really good water source. So yeah, King River Brewing. I wanted it to be local, um I should say as well. I wanted to add something that
00:11:47
Speaker
Um, really drove home, like where we were as a brand, um, that we could then talk to people about as like ah an experience as well as just, um, an interesting name. Um, and I know that most of the lawyers were telling me that's a stupid idea because trademarking and whatnot. Um, but I really love it.
00:12:03
Speaker
Yeah, and in terms of a lot of Victorians are going to know the area and the high country and its arounds and everything like that. But, um, King River in particular, that area, it's known for its Prosecco and that kind of thing it is as well as the sort of tobacco and hops.
00:12:17
Speaker
potentially hops industry as well? Yeah, it is. It is. So Ellerslie, which grows pretty much all of the bittering hops for the Australian market for all your major, large breweries and smaller ones, is in Mirey, which is a part of the King Valley, basically. Now home to Australia's only CO2 extraction plants as well. That is correct. Greg's very happy to talk about that. I've used some of that as a test product. I'm actually waiting on my second test. There you go. If you're listening in, Ellerslie. Greg.
00:12:46
Speaker
um I've been very helpful over there at Leslie and um ah literally like a 10-minute drive from where we are. Yeah, it's a beautiful part of the world. And where you are as well, you're sort of sat in the middle of the valley. yeah You know, you drive into where the brewery is, you've got the you know the mountain range behind, it's pretty specky. Yep, so we're we're on the flats. um If I had my time again, I'd probably try to go up in the hill a little bit so I can see all the snow-capped mountains. But it has its own advantages in that in summer the sun dips a lot sooner so we get like a massive temperature drop like in those really hot days and in winter um the the sun's up the way that it traverses is is up a little bit longer so we get slightly warmer winter days as well. And in terms of the brewery setup there so you've obviously set up a brewery in an existing space so tell us about that.
00:13:36
Speaker
Yeah, so what about that yeah yeah, so can remember brewing um is situated on the my wife's family farm when my wife grew up. um Her father was a tobacco farmer. Yeah. um So the farm itself used to be tobacco when tobacco was basically made illegal. A lot of the farms that they went into grapes, which is where Prosecco was born and came from. um My father-in-law converted one of the old tobacco kilns into a pizza oven restaurant um that discontinued after 10 or so years. And that's when we invented King River Brewing around that time. And our taproom is now that old dish issue is tobacco kiln. And we'll just took over one of the spaces there to put the gear into and the rest of it. Was the rest already sort of set up like a restaurant or? Yeah, it was kind of it was set up like a restaurant. We started off like we've had a lot of ah slow upgrading happening as a small brewery. Money isn't easy to find. So we've upgraded as we can for both form and function, mainly around function.
00:14:38
Speaker
ah The restaurant setup really only was good for table service and a very small amount of diners, maybe 30, 40 max. um So we've in we reshaped the bar area. So we've got a new tap system, cut the whole thing in half and separated the kitchen. And ah now instead of servicing 30, 40 people easily, we service like 120 pretty easily. So that that function was really good.
00:15:04
Speaker
um Yeah, but the two wood fire pizza ovens in the back corner are still are integral to to what we do. We use one of the pizzas and the other one is to wood fire other foods that we do. So we've got a chef there now as well as a pizza maker. And um yeah, so he will ah wood fire ah the courses as well as use it to reheat stuff so you get that wood smoke through your food.
00:15:28
Speaker
And in terms of people coming in, is it mostly weekend trade, tourists? as You are like a substantial... We're off the beaten track. Yeah, dry. But again, it is Prosecco Road. It's a tourist region. But i there's not a lot of big population centres around. It'll be like sort of 600 people down. That's right. You can be much more midway between the main junctions. No, I don't think so. I think I chose the most isolated spot near Pable, which will probably give me something to talk about later. Wangarat is our closest town. It is 45 kilometres away. I only know that because our house number or farm number is 4515, which is 45 kilometres.
00:16:11
Speaker
150 meters that's had the numbers. I didn't realize. There you go. There's a tip for young players. When you get up to 46, you're up to 46 kilometers out of Wang. You've been on too far. I feel like I need to stop the podcast now and just ah just have a moment to gather myself. Having learned something so... yeah yeah you know I'm assuming that's how they do it everywhere James. like I hadn't heard it until we um invented the brewery there myself yeah and it all makes a lot of sense, right? Yeah, it does.
00:16:37
Speaker
um but yeah yeah so And Wangaratta is a ah population that doesn't mind a little bit of wine tourism, but doesn't seem to get into beer tourism very much. um But we do have great regions like Rotherglen, Beechworth, Aubrey, Wodonga, et cetera, all one hour, one one and hour away. We started drawing a lot of people from there, but that's a um from a timeline perspective. Initially we would get drive-through traffic people going for wine tourism. And as we started getting bigger and more well known, then we started getting people from further out. Shepparton, for example, was a good one.
00:17:14
Speaker
um and Melbourne traffic, obviously. um Yeah, in recent times, now we're seeming to drag people in from everywhere. It's so a really good mix of Northeast Victoria, Melbourne, and then yeah, travelers from elsewhere. Is that some a bit of local tourism puts going on or is it all King, all thanks to King River?
Enhancing Local Tourism through Breweries
00:17:33
Speaker
Oh, no, definitely not. Yeah, definitely not thanks to King River. What I want to say is that like we are now a valuable part of that, that we are bringing in our own clientele. but um Their own tourism, but honestly, it's for the Prosecco Road as it's termed up there. Delzados, Pazinis, Politinis, La Cantina, etc. There's been wineries there, some of them like Darling Estate, for example, has been there for 100 years or so. um ah The newer ones, Tobacco Farmers, then turned to grapes like Delzados, Pazinis.
00:18:07
Speaker
um brought in a lot of tourism. King River is a ah great addition to that and what we find and what we get told by the tourist bodies the tourism bodies that we work with Is it without the brewery there? We don't get longer stays. People will come and see one winery and then keep going until they find another place to go. Like the experience value of having the brewery there is phenomenal for the region. um When we first started, what we noticed was that we'd have really quiet Saturdays and Sunday we'd get absolutely smashed. And that's because people would come to go to the winery and then Sunday they'd be like, what do we do next? They're like, oh, okay. There's a brewery. there's that's yeah there on the way home Yeah, that's right. there's ah There's something different to do, you know?
00:18:44
Speaker
um Now we we get a really good blend across the door which I think shows that people have us as a valuable part of the tourist trip, part of their journey. As a sort of small regional brewery of which there are many, many all over Australia and still more opening, have you found that having that that sort of solid food offering is important as well to get people either through the door or just to stay a bit longer because I guess otherwise it yeah might be a case of ah A couple of beers. i really go It really is. and um ah you know I've experienced that myself when you tour around like Tasmania. I had had that um impression a little bit where you you sort of go somewhere and you you can't really sit for an hour because there's nothing to eat. I had a few places. So I was really keen. We did we went to Tassie before we opened the brewery and I was really keen to make sure that we had a decent food offering. The pizza oven restaurant was there. So we started with that.
00:19:32
Speaker
But what you don't get from um ah that, I shouldn't say one dimension, because pizza could be anything, but that one type of food offering is that from a local perspective, so when you're quiet a month, when you need your bread and butter, yeah people aren't coming back for pizza every day. yeah right people People will come back for interesting food. so um I was really keen to get a chef in because of our local population being at a total of 460. It's hard to find the funds to get a good chef in, so I kind of just bit the bullet and took a took a leap of faith there and went, if we build it, that would come. yeah Have good food, then it's going to increase our tourism um offer.
00:20:13
Speaker
as well as give local people a reason to revisit the brewery. you know So um I really felt that a lot of locals would come like once a month. ah Now we just have like... You know, Thursday night at the moment is a Uros night, so I think it's sort of like a Uros, yeah. yeah um ah During winter it was pie night. It was tacos before that, and all like slow-cooked meats, really good stuff. And without a chef, I couldn't do that. But now Thursday nights are better than Friday nights, right? Which is a mid-week thing. You know, we're only open Thursday to Sunday. yeah
00:20:45
Speaker
Um, and it's just been a really helpful, um, part of our operation. So yeah, without that food offering, we wouldn't have it. We wouldn't have it. You could have that beer on a Saturday. You wouldn't need to come on Thursday. Yeah. Okay. So then talking about so the tourism aspect of it, the high country brewery trail. we want um what ah the earliest examples of the an ale trail brewery trail. We like to say the earliest. Yeah. oh but we think for you In Australia, in Australia, in Australia. Before you came around today, I was working on and asking about the, you know, West had just launched their ale trail, you know, and so I know there's one coming online in Margaret River. Yeah. Newcastle breweries are getting together. You know, it's become quite an important, important thing. Is that something that you've seen the value of um within the high country? Do you see it? Because you guys obviously make beers with the other breweries? Do you help each other out? Or you tend to appear in each other's festivals? you know Yeah, that's right. So I mean, High Country Hop's the the festival. There used to be um needs to be another festival but that doesn't really bring us along anymore. um Yeah, High Country Hop, we all get there. It's my best time of the year as well because we get to see each other. Otherwise, we're all too busy making beer and you know trying to try to sell it. um But yeah, the the main thing about that trail to me is
00:21:58
Speaker
tourism aspect that shows people that there's more than just one brewery, like you can spend more time in region. um The region that we're in is is quite sparse, obviously quite broad, I should say, and and the breweries sparse within it. So it's you can't do the High Country Brewery Trail in a day. So it gives you great um a great journey through the region if you're camping or spending a few days to go to a few different places.
00:22:21
Speaker
I'd definitely say the value in that. I mean, it's it's a beautiful region with very distinct breweries that have distinct beer offerings that have distinct landscapes. um And without so like being able to showcase that, I think really helps tourism.
00:22:36
Speaker
But I guess another aspect of it up there is there's a lot of pubs and seem to get behind the local brewers as well. um Is that something that has been an important part of your business? And then if so, how have you you gone about being? You've been there a while now, but you you weren't one of the first. So, you know, building, I guess, support in what limited, crafty sort of hospitality there is in the region. Yeah, I think there's a broader story there as well. And there's a bit about quality. And when we started, my biggest concern was that I wouldn't match the quality of the wines in the region like they're very specific about how great they are, I guess, as any ah good producer is.
00:23:12
Speaker
um And the local pubs immediate conversation with them was that they wanted to pick us up immediately. So without them, I wouldn't have had our first customers. I wouldn't have had the confidence to grow and get better. um We wouldn't have ah thought about doing the taproom because we wouldn't have had enough volume sale on wholesale to think about having our our own venue and without their support of us running our venue as well, we wouldn't be able to do it because fortunately they're 5k's up the road or 14k's up the road in the other direction for Muyu and yeah, absolutely key. Without that support, couldn't get going. and there's nothing There's nothing else close by, right? In terms of the locals, these like people are just coming in every single week. as that
00:23:56
Speaker
Is that something you always hoped for or thought didn't expect? Like, like, where did that sit with you? Because you are opening in a tourist region and and some places do get by just on the tourist trade. Yeah, that's right. Look, because we're in such a small local population area, it was very, very important for us to capture um our local market to give them something that they wanted to come back for. But I've got a lot of ideas I always do, but only some we can execute with them. It comes back to funding, right? They can only do so much.
00:24:27
Speaker
um And ah yeah, it took us took us quite a while to get to where I wanted to be like, I mean, we opened in 2016. And I think I employed our first chef in 2021. Okay, wow. Yeah, yeah right. um and And I and know known since 2017, that that's what I wanted to do. um But trying to invigorate enough custom to be able to make it happen um ah took that long. Yeah. Yeah. Now we'd like and we'd love to have a chat with you about the beer styles you make, especially with Oktoberfest coming up. But before we get to that, might be good to sort step back a
Influence of Belgian Beers on Brewing
00:25:00
Speaker
few years. And how did you first get into beer and then decide to step away from what you were doing beforehand yeah and commit your life to being a commercial brewer?
00:25:10
Speaker
Yes, well, um stupidity is the first thing I say. got yeah Generally. um then i ah So I love food, wine, um the beer was almost a tertiary for me. um But the beer styles that I love are Belgian style beers.
00:25:26
Speaker
Um, so she made blue. Um, do you remember having those here or from traveling? Uh, yeah, no, no, from having them here. So when I go out to have a beer, I didn't just want, um, the beer that we were drinking that everyone else is drinking. Like, um, you're like scanning the fridge behind the bar and like, yeah, what do they got? What do they got? I want something, um, something interesting. Uh, triple, um, uh, Belgian triple took me quickly. Um, Duvel, uh, was one of the beer styles that, uh, or beers in that golden style that.
00:25:56
Speaker
Um, really made me happy. And I'm like, I love this beer. It's quite strong. It's strong. Well, that's why I got happy. But there's so much going on, like, you know, S is for knowledge. Um, uh, great character. Uh, and yeah, so I'm like, I really love these beers and.
00:26:12
Speaker
When I had Unibrewy Terrible, which is from Canada, I couldn't believe it like coming from a a wine appreciation background that you could make a beer in Canada that tasted like it was from Belgium. yeah And that kind of started the journey. You mean they don't just grow the bees in each country? Well, I assumed it was yeast. And historically, it is yeast. And that's where, for the Belgian bees anyway, that most of these characters come from. Obviously, you can modify other ingredients, but that particularly signature
00:26:46
Speaker
flavor and aroma that comes from the yeast. So ah that blew my mind and I wanted to learn more about it is how it started. Yeah. And that early brewing, home brewing it, was it you trying to perfect those beer styles or were you sort of traveling and everything?
00:27:03
Speaker
i I started going, I can't believe about this Canadian brewery. Let me just try something. And I tried something. It was horrible. And I had a mate that ah did ah like a extract kit yeah with me and his beer was fine. And I'm like, well, I don't like this. So um being fairly analytical, I then got more and more ah kits and um went, oh yeah, I'm liking this, but how do we make it better? and um Yeah, and then before you know my garage was like a three system like mini production 200 litre batch. Yeah, very. And it was like now's the time to make the leap. Yeah, well, not exactly. Yeah. So, so I ah did that as a hobby, um but I was enjoying it so much and learning so much from it that we started my wife and I Brianna started thinking about like, could we do it commercially?
00:27:57
Speaker
So I spent a bit of time ah doing numbers, first of all, like financially, and it didn't really add up at small scale. And I was way too scared to go big scale without education. So I went and enrolled at IBD out of the UK. and And then that obviously took a little while as well. So I think my journey started in maybe 2008, 2009. And we then went to implement a brewery in about 2013. And then in 2016, yeah, it got better. When you first came to visit me here with a few samples. that's Oh, was it? you so I think i think well you think you were still living still living in Melbourne and... Would have been in Templestowe. The garage would have been pumping out beers. I ran Monteverfest then.
00:28:40
Speaker
every single year for for my friends, but no payment required. um As we knew we were going to go commercial, it became a testing ground. Yeah. Yeah, right. And I guess, but but Montova's might be a good segue into the break before we come back and talk about Star. So, Montova Fest, was that like the biggest event of the year for King River? Yeah, that's that's our event. So, it's my birthday celebration for the brewery because we started September, October 2016.
00:29:05
Speaker
um And of course it leans into what I did when we were home brewing to do trial beers for main production. um We kept the name, Muntava Fest, and I think it might be a little bit confusing, but um the Overfest in it.
00:29:20
Speaker
I should definitely gel people into what's going on, but it's the Oktoberfest style event. and yeah it's it's um It's my passion. It's been small and growing. um We've generally been up to like 100, 120 people, but we've fasted past that.
00:29:35
Speaker
already this year with a month to go. yeah And I'm really looking forward to making it a bigger event. My goal is to make Montauberfest the next high country brewery trail event, okay where we can get enough people yeah and we can get more breweries from the high country involved because there's only one event now that we can go to. yeah And I really love that commercial camaraderie. I really love that um sharing of ideas and I really love that getting together because we all get so stuck in the brewery and in our own little regions. We don't get together without those events. So that that that's my overarching goal for Mount Oberfest and um this year is probably the first step in the right direction. That's great. Now we'll um take a quick break there and then we'll come back to have a chat about you i guess your brewing ethos and the the styles you love making. Excellent. Thank you.
00:30:23
Speaker
will be right back. There's no doubt that running a craft brewery can be tough. There are so many moving parts and often not enough hands to manage it all. And when things get tight, sadly it's often the marketing efforts that get put on the back burner. But believe me friends, if you're not talking about your business, nobody else is either.
00:30:42
Speaker
And that's where the Crafty pint can help. We've spent over a decade building up the largest and most engaged audience of craft beer drinkers anywhere in the country. They read about beer, they listen to beer, and most importantly, they buy beer. And if you want to connect with that audience, there's no better way than with a brewery listing on the Crafty pint business directory. For just $50 a month plus a one-off set off fee, you'll be featured on the Crafty pint website and on our app, which helps beer lovers find their nearest breweries wherever they are.
00:31:12
Speaker
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00:31:40
Speaker
Consider us your in-house marketing partner, helping you connect with customers while you get on with the job of making great beers. Email craig at craftypint.com for more info. And now, back to the podcast.
00:32:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the CraftyPaint podcast. Nathan, let's talk about beers. Obviously we just left off with Muntoberfest and anyone who knows King River will know that you have a particular love for, I mean, how do you describe it, traditional European styles? Yeah, that's that's how I describe it. So starting off with Belgian styles and then working through Germany, Czech Pilsners, but yeah, that that European region in general is what I love.
00:32:26
Speaker
Yeah, and because you love drinking them, because you love brewing them, what's yeah what's your Aussie? A bit of both. I think most, ah the non-Belgian styles, most of those other styles of lagers are very clean beers. um They become a bit of a challenge to brew really, really well. And that really invigorates me, like getting the perfect example of an alt beer.
00:32:47
Speaker
Or a coach or a check pills requires a lot of work and effort and um and QA and that makes makes me ah fulfilled I guess like my analytical brain but they're also great drinking beers right like the cleanliness of them the the the character in them is layered but elegant and make some really approachable and most people get into them as well and I love that. I love sharing beers that are a little bit different but are also so palatable to a wide audience and I think that's what we get. That's how I think if you know you can lay it elegant and approachable. Not until five o'clock. I mean you know like several in the morning. I don't know what year we want to call it but maybe
00:33:32
Speaker
six to ten years ago to put pluck some numbers out of the air. It felt like before that a lot of those traditional European styles were very big in craft beer and they have taken the back seat, yeah arguably in in favor of IPAs and things yeah like that. Do you find that there's still this interest in them or what's it sort of look like in the market?
Revival of European Beer Styles
00:33:54
Speaker
Yeah, I feel in the market that they're they're coming back pretty strong. um We've noticed a pretty good uplift um in in these styles. We do make a red IPA, we make a pale owl, which took me five years before I'd make one. There's now another one selling beer. but yeah like um And yeah I'll tell you a little story about that later as well. um But yeah, we have found that people are ah looking for those beers now as opposed to not. And I think
00:34:25
Speaker
Traditionally, from a homebrewer perspective, um those styles are the the first beers that people would try to make. Like, Colch, for example, is an ale. Therefore, I can ferment it warm and still get a clean, easy-drinking beer. And I think a lot of the homebrewing into commercial brewing that was ah originally Kraft made it an easy um leap into into their production line.
00:34:49
Speaker
then all of a sudden you had to make culture really, really well before it was acceptable. um And obviously ah IPAs and hop craze went nuts. So there's no good having a culture anymore. You might as well have a great lager and all the ah IPAs you can bake a stick in. yeah Definitely changing them.
00:35:06
Speaker
Yeah. And you know, I guess triple, you know, is the beer style that really got you falling in love with beer. I remember um when you started yelling out beer when I first came to visit, it but the triple was the one that you were like, yeah, that was Waiting for Godot was he that's right the early release. Yeah. And, you know, it's still is called Waiting for Godot. I will never change that name. And do you want to know why? Yeah, go on. So Waiting for Godot is essentialist play by Samuel Beckett.
00:35:32
Speaker
Um, uh, take from, uh, what you will, but there's basically two people sitting on a bench. Things are happening around them. They never really get off the bench. They're waiting for this guy called Godot. Um, to me, it's just such a, uh, great analogy of life. Um, where we sit there and we're looking at things going around this and be like, Oh, why isn't it not happening to me? Why haven't I won Tatsuto or why is my job not good enough or whatever? Well, you're the people sitting on the bench. Um, and the time where I went, I'm going to take my own destiny into my own hands is when we decided to, uh, open the brewery. Therefore, my number one favorite period of all time, the Belgian triple gets the name Waiting for Godot because it's a moment that I jumped off the bench and did it myself. So it's a constant reminder and also a great story to talk to people about inspiration in life, to do things that you want to do. And that's what the name's there for. Who did you leave on the bench? Oh, I left the bank on the bench. There you go. You left the banker on the bench. Left the banker on the bench. Yeah. So I left the bank and
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah, went headlong into the beer. Yeah, that's great. And and um in terms of, you know, ah the other mainstays that may not be that popular or, you know, tough sales that you like, I don't care. Yeah, these this is a beer that I'm very adamant um about that. And it's because we have a ah brand representation as well.
00:36:48
Speaker
um I love all beer. okay You can give me anything but a bloody milkshake pastry sour, but you can give me all the hazies. I like these beers, but it's not my brand at all. So I'm very, very, very specific to make sure that if you're looking at King River as a brand, are you're looking at any of our beers that they really align um with that Euro style. So I've had to shove um that into people's minds a lot. People like Carl Schuger, who gives it to, I don't know what the general audience is for this style. Try not to, I swear. But these, and Alt Beer as well, like they these styles are so beautiful. Like Amber Ale was a very big style in the early craft as well. yeah But nobody had an Alt Beer passé, they'd be English miles.
00:37:40
Speaker
Um, uh, an American amb is like hot character. the alt beer is such a refined, beautiful beer when when duker done correctly, um that it's worth sharing with people. So I think, um I lost my train of thought there, slightly. But the beers that, you know, you might not be commercially viable, which is pretty much everything. you Oh yeah, gotcha. yeah yeah But the ones that you're like, I don't care. I'm going to keep bringing that beer at least once a year. I feel like um most of those beers were like that when we started. um But yeah, that's right. So Doppelbock, for example, would be, the
00:38:12
Speaker
First on off the, off the ladder there. So doppelbock is a beer that when we first made it, then I was attempting to sell it. um The main feedback was nobody wants to say doppelbock when they rock up to the bar. So you need to call it something else and we'll buy it off you or.
00:38:28
Speaker
you can go away. And I'm like, well, I'm not calling it anything else. The the other thing that I like. Goodbye. they so Goodbye. So I made no money. by makinging for get like and double but But then we won a trophy for doublebo yeah like double You make a double block double batch every year, but only once. So it's not like it's a huge seller. yeah But ah so did did did it make a difference winning the trophy for the beer then? um was selling I think it did the first year. It's been two years since then. I think we run it 2022. Gold again last year, this year bronze. I got to make sure that we get the trophy next year, I guess. And then I can give you a really good statistical analysis on it. But yeah, I think it did. It gave confidence in sales.
00:39:09
Speaker
okay So when we could rock up with, well, this one, the trophy of best amber dark lager in Australia at the Avers. It has a the bit of proof attached to it. So definitely, double and you know, I made that for five years before the trophy came along and um it was definitely hard sell. And yeah, I wanted to touch on like, I refuse to change the names because if we just kept changing the names of things like culture to a golden hour.
00:39:35
Speaker
that nobody will understand what a good culture is supposed to be. yeah And then we don't have that stylistic understanding in Australia. We just have gold now instead of the real style. So I'm really big on that. You know, those things sort of, people should have tried that a lot as well and it doesn't really work out. Like you can call a culture gold male, people don't buy the gold male. It's kind of an irrelevant thing. I think if you stick with it, if you devote yourself to the beer and push it, then It should find customers somewhere. I think so. And and it has. Kyle shares, we probably have like four in our highest selling range, which is Paler. God damn it. You just call it God damn it. Yeah, godam it goodam I God damn it. Probably worked really well. yeah um ah Then we'll have North by Northeast, which is a mid-strength Hellas lager.
00:40:24
Speaker
um Red IPA, just keep selling like crazy, which is really, really good, but a real shit to make. And then Colch. So Colch is number four and they're in decent volume um per year. And I feel like we've created a little bit of that. Like you always hear me bang on about Colch and about how it fits so well with food and the general public and should be replacing any ah generally ah boring gold nail beer when done correctly. I think it's really important that we understand that that's the style and then people have an advanced understanding of their palate. Not to give too much away, but or too many ideas to other breweries, but when you look at three of those, so all of those beers except for
00:41:12
Speaker
the pale ale, you probably have a lot of space there yeah you in terms of like not too many other people yeah brewing them and an ability to really tell their story. yeah I think it was really key to me to make sure that we were ah were going to attempt to be number one in a particular market, not like in terms of volume, but like just be the highest quality product that you can get in that market. And that's that European market. So there may not be the highest volume in it, but there's definitely a want for it. And I believe that we do it the best. And that's um that's driving us at the moment. Yeah. And I suppose I want to flip side to that question. If we are seeing a revival in interest in these sort of beers, I mean, we've done the piece on English style ales recently, and it's had a lot of engagement online, which suggests there are
00:42:02
Speaker
people out there or maybe at least old people like me looking for those short beers but you know if it's coming back because then the chances are some other breweries out there and might go oh we should start trying to brew some belgian style beers or whatever what have you sort of picked up over the years you know in terms of that start of brewing what are the things the key lessons you've learned or yeah are there sort of major differences when you sit down to brew something the way you want to bring out the belgian esters as opposed to your pale ale which is going to be clean and you know Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think Kolsch goes in there as a particular example. I know I said I wouldn't keep banging on about Kolsch. In that if you're not using the proper cologne yeast style, then you won't get that little pear ester in it. And that changes it from like a boring golden ale into something beautiful. With Triples, it's about yeast fermentation temperature. It's about the right yeast selection. um they're Obviously getting all the other variables correct, like pH is really, really important to Belgian beers.
00:43:00
Speaker
But that yeast and and that fermentation control changes the entire aspect of the beer. So to like for triples, that that would be my number one, really. And triple, I mean, so diverse, right? Like if you look at Belgian, so every year I change the yeast in triple, so that if you do verticals with Belgian triple, you can have them year after year after year and you'll have subtle differences or maybe even major differences.
00:43:24
Speaker
um and they'll age in a different way as well so you can start getting an appreciation for the different regions. This comes back to that whole terroir thing that blew my mind away when I first started brewing was like well hang on a second like the yeast is that that terroir for Belgian beers and I like playing with that so um yeah every year different area of Belgium um comes into play with the various varieties
Experimentation in Brewing Techniques
00:43:48
Speaker
that we use. And have you done that as an event or with yeah customers sat down with those hardcore regulars and gone hey do you want to try these four years? We let all of our Brooker members know what we've
00:44:01
Speaker
done the current version with and they will always get one in their pack and then they'll they'll stock a higher up because these are Beers of the Lage, like there's a 750ml bottle um Beers of the Lage for 5, 7, 10 years depending.
00:44:16
Speaker
Um, so we do get good traction with that. We sell it at Belgian triple every year. And, um, and I'll make a fair amount of it for us. I think people are doing doing that. Yeah. At the brewery, we have, um, uh, we have run out of year one, year two, so 20, 20, uh, 17, no, 26, 2016, 2017, 2018.
00:44:42
Speaker
And yeah, we run out of the first three years and we've only got 29, 20, 29, January, 24. Actually, 24 is getting brewed next week. yeah And in terms of beer and food, I know we touched on it earlier and how important the kitchen is. I know you're running and dinner dinners, special yeah so seasonal dinners and things like that. yeah like How are those going again? It's ah another thing that... you know, good beer week five years ago was all about that. And it's just kind of something, you know, but a brewery like Molly Road aside, we aren't as big a focus for the industry. Yeah. And I think it's a really important focus. I think as soon as we start pairing beer with food more often, then people bring it to the table more often. I've got this great beer that's going to pair with whatever you're having for dinner. um And that's, that's part of the reason why we do the beer and food pairings. We're in a wine region.
00:45:29
Speaker
yeah They do wine dinners. The beer and food pairing things that I saw before was like once a year, they'd be like an annual thing. Oh, we're going to pair beer with food. Well, shit, every meal can be paired with the right beer, you know? And um so I was really keen on that. I've got a really excellent chef that loves working.
00:45:47
Speaker
with me on that. And yeah, we've we've we've done like nine or 10 of them now. They're monthly ah during winter and then during summer season when we get super busy, we do them when we can. So the next one will be in February, but they've grown and grown and grown. We get a lot of the same faces back now. yeah um as well as a new people coming in. So we're currently around 20 to 25 people. yeah It's pretty intimate. You have to listen to me talk about what's so special about this big. Well, my chef is an amazing guy yeah and he always um slots coltians somewhere for me. And if he doesn't, we give you a coltian arrival.
00:46:24
Speaker
okay excellent And you said you had a story for us about the paleo before we get to our past, present, future. What was the paleo story? I'll make it super quick. So I didn't make paleo for ages. I love bridge road pale. I'm a new business owner. I don't know what the F I'm doing. And I'm like, I'm not going to make a paleo. I feel like that's competing with bridge road. I'm making an alt beer. What more could the consumer want? That's right. That's right. And a Belgian triple. Yeah. And a powder. And a sour porter. And
00:46:55
Speaker
So I just held off and I'm like, let let's just get good for being distinct for who we are. And I did a beer that I call North East Hop Tea Pale Owl, where you use a hop tea process where you like heat up um the fermenter with the hops in it, let the hops stew.
00:47:14
Speaker
and get the beer in there and then close it off and apparently you keep moral hops in Sahi. So dip hopping is... Dip hops, same thing. Same thing. So Sahi is apparently as a process and I'm like, I'll give this a go, but I'm going to use real tea. So green tea is grown locally in North East Victoria um and ah the plan is in Wangarana, so closest um city centre.
00:47:36
Speaker
Yeah, so I got a bunch of that, did the pop dipping in the tea. And I'm like, before I do this, because the tea is really expensive, I got to make a couple of trial paleo. So it was like a six and a half percent paleo. I hate going into an IPA idea. It's just not going to be that bitter and stuff. So um anyway, I made these three different batches. I put them all on tap next to each other to get customers' feedback.
00:47:59
Speaker
And lo and behold, they're the first three cakes to blur. And I'm like, ah, shit. I need to make it better. So we make King River power now. And yeah, higher selling. But presumably it helps, you know, fund some of the wilder, the yeah wilder fantasies as well. Like the at the Adam Beer, you know. Yeah. So that's right. Yeah. So we we talk about collecting interesting styles. Absolutely. And the paleo is still mine. Like it's not something that um I've I feel like I've deviated, wait a minute, I made red IPA because I didn't want to make an IPA when something malt balanced. So I think it's still got its place you know in our catalogue. um Yes. and and And I guess you're right, it does fund more interesting projects like Adam Beer is a good one. What is an Adam Beerford? Well, gold medalist. Yeah, dual gold medalist. Two competitions, two gold medals.
00:48:52
Speaker
um Adam Bier is a really sweet ale, the ah origins of the Starler from Dortmund in Germany, and we did a a collaboration with Carmen, we've done a ah few of them now, for their Black Box Winter edition this year.
00:49:11
Speaker
And they're like, well, you know, what about Adam Bier? And I'm like, well, yeah, I've never made one before. And ah so the idea came from them. It but wasn't you hunting around going, there must be some German stuff out there I've not made before. No, no, it was actually Tito. He's like, I know. Anyway, I'm just like, yes, Tito. Absolutely. So then research started.
00:49:30
Speaker
Um, I got a little bit creative with it, uh, added some, uh, smoked malt to it just to give a little bit of a finish and yeah, made a a beautiful beer, but yeah, what's Adam beer? Well, there's, there's only a few commercial examples. It seems like brews make it like once. I'm really incensed with this beer. Like I think it's going to be a beautiful beer. It's got to get barrel aged. Like it has to go into barrels. Um, and, and for time.
00:49:52
Speaker
Uh, so I will make it again, uh, at some point and not too distant future. This one was for a specific, um, purpose, but yeah, sweet multi molasses. Um, uh, has that, uh,
00:50:05
Speaker
almost double-bok characteristic going on in it. Not so much dark, Mark, but it's really, really dark, but it's just a little bit burnt. What did yours land around 9% or something? Yeah, 9.2% around there. Yeah, so it's up there. It's a big, voluptuous beer, is how I would describe it. Great mouth feeling.
00:50:24
Speaker
Yeah, no, it was beautiful. I was really, really happy with that. We got a gold for that as well at the... ah the ivis yeah yeah Nathan, so we'd like to finish up with three questions that are kind of a variation on looking at the past, present and
Keys to Brewery Success
00:50:37
Speaker
the future. So, you know, if you... If I get them wrong, do I get three issues? Do I rub a lamp and get them back? No, you'll get a million dollars if you get them all wrong. can Think about the yeah yeah yeah the positives. yeah um You know, to start things off, like if you could,
00:50:51
Speaker
rewind the clock and find yourself in 2013, what would you tell yourself? for That's a really tough one but I think the most important thing to like a local independent brewery, particularly one in a small region, um your tapering is really important. That rat retail ah repeat revenue is so important that I'd probably really look at moving it from five days down the road to into the town centre.
00:51:17
Speaker
Right, just so people can walk there. Yeah, that's right. We've done some analysis, some economic analysis on on that. And we would have, we would potentially it'd be doing four times the amount of revenue.
00:51:29
Speaker
um And in terms of the present where you are now, if you give one piece of advice to someone who is looking to do what you have done, yeah what is the one sort of gem that, you know, as as opposed to don't follow anything that I've done? essential Maybe that is it. Well, I think sticking to your guns and not being too broad, you know, I think it's really important to have an identity that is with any brand And as soon as you start trying to do everything, you're competing with everyone. You're competing on hype, you're competing on marketing. There's a lot of spend involved there and it's not sustainable. So find something that is your niche that fits in the market where there's room and and go for that. Don't just try to be another brewery. Yeah. Well, I think it's quite interesting that you've never been a hype brewery yeah and you've never sold huge volumes necessarily. You've stuck to what you you know what you believe in and just got better and better at it.
00:52:23
Speaker
And then you've ended up being like a frequent collaborator with Carwin. Yeah. yeah and so And there'll be some people out there going, who's who's this? Yeah, that's right. Why are they in every single. And I love that. Yeah. And and and also doing the most interesting beer more often than not in those boxes as well. and People are going, how's this happen? And, you know, we know you would, you know, being to visit, like it makes sense yeah if you're, you know, a deep diver into the world of beer. Yeah. But essentially it's happened because they've gone, oh, this guy's doing something interesting. That's right. It's not we're going to put him in there because he's going to sell a ton of beers for us. It's because some people are going to have something different and they'll talk about it. That's right. And I think that's the most important thing to enjoy in beer as well, is like something that's different that really gets your senses going that you haven't had before. Like, I don't need another hoppy beer, let's add in beer. Yeah. Totally different. Yeah. And what's your hope for beer in the future? Buy more colesch.
00:53:17
Speaker
Yeah, that everybody understands the beauty of a really good coach. um That would be my number one goal. I i often say to Sam, my sales guy, um everyone needs coach in their life. Like if they had the right coach, they'd realize how good it is, you know.
00:53:35
Speaker
You drink one, you'd be like, oh, that's that's um that's all right, but that's nothing. And then you drink two, and you're like, actually, that's really, really nice. And you know three, four, you could just keep going depending on what the responsible limit was um and realize that it's a beer that continues to have flavor. If you drink a pretty simple lager, it stops having flavor after a couple, and you're just drinking alcohol. Colch has the body and the flavor and the characteristic to keep going. So that would be my number one hope. But um the hope for the greater industry,
00:54:04
Speaker
That would be that ah we find a way to penetrate um ah more ah retail outlets in a way in a meaningful way, um in a way that doesn't involve big contracts, um in a way that doesn't involve any sort of fisticuff with the ACCC to get the taps back.
00:54:27
Speaker
um That would be my main goal. Isn't that venues and retailers are like, we actually want to stop this because we can see it's a bigger market for it. Yeah, that's right. you know And um we're we're talking about trying to calculate exactly what rebate price per K, etc. What are that but that actually costs, because we believe there's a pretty um There's a pretty great reason to sell independent beer in that you will probably get a bigger markup on it. It's slightly more expensive. If the volume is still there anyway, then you shouldn't have to kowtow to what they're telling you you're missing out on.
00:55:03
Speaker
We need to be able to calculate that somehow. Yeah. Sounds like a pretty worthy hope for the future, I reckon. Yeah. But not as noble as the goal of everyone drinking kosh. Everyone needs kosh. Everyone wins with noble hops. Yeah, we know. Nathan, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you guys. Cheers. Cheers, mate. Thank you. Cheers. Cheers.
00:55:25
Speaker
The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials.
00:55:39
Speaker
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