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00:00:01
Fighting For Indie Beer
458 Plays23 days ago
“I think the thing that’s really important for consumers and the industry writ large to know is how many forces are currently at play that are going to make being a small brewer more challenging.
“We call this the death by a thousand cuts.”
If 2023 was a rough year for the indie beer world, 2024 has been worse – brutal doesn’t seem too harsh a term to describe the conditions faced by many in the industry. And those challenges have also been faced by the Independent Brewers Association (IBA), the body representing Australia’s indie brewers.
In the face of a major drop in income, they’ve been forced to tighten their belt in terms of what they’ve been able to offer. And, as with many businesses in beer and hospo, have reduced the size of their team. At the same time, faced with such challenges, they’ve kept fighting the fight on as many fronts as they can – “we’re small but scrappy” is how they put it.
So, before we switch to a series of state by state by territory podcast episodes reflecting on the year in beer, we invited IBA CEO Kylie Lethbridge and head of industry development Sabrina Kunz to join us on the show.
As you can imagine with the indie beer world fighting battles on so many fronts, it’s a seriously wide-ranging conversation. We start by looking back on a year in which VAs, closures and business restructuring have dominated many of the headlines but during which there have been new arrivals, expansions and growth too.
We discuss the major uptick in honest, respectful coverage of the beer world by mainstream media, the challenges and opportunities when it comes to state and federal governments, building long-term relationships and partnerships around the country, the biggest issues on the table for 2025, and how to build consumer awareness and support for the industry.
The chat with Kylie and Sabrina kicks off at 7:40.
Prior to that there's just the briefest of intros as we had to record this week's early prior to hitting the road for SA before dawn on Wednesday for a sold-out event at The Wheaty and a bunch of podcast recordings you'll get to enjoy over the coming weeks and months.
We discussed the return of one of craft beer's key figures, Phil Sexton, to brewing alongside son Harry with the launch of Keeper Brewing at the former home of Temple, as well as our upcoming event with Molly Rose.
Thanks to show sponsors FOBOH and The High Country Hop.
Relevant links:
That's A Keeper: Sexton Family Turn Temple Into A Shrine To Pils
The Molly Rose Story – Distilled:
Independent Brewers Association website: https://independentbrewers.org.au/
To find out more about supporting the show or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact [email protected].
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Transcript
Early Recording & Travel Plans
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Crafty Pint podcast. I'm Will. I'm James. Welcome back. Thank you. Just quickly off the top, we're recording this a little early because James and I are driving to Adelaide tomorrow, first thing in the morning. When you say tomorrow, as in yesterday, by the time you listen to this. but Don't worry about it. we will have We will have made it to Adelaide, hopefully, because we'll have it great have done a great event of the week.
00:00:30
Speaker
Exactly. That's a lot of tenses all mashed together um in in one go. So very early recording it in the week. So we haven't had too many other new stories we put out since last week's episode to talk about. um But you did have one pretty cool story we
Keeper Brewing Launch by Phil Sexton
00:00:47
Speaker
put out on Monday. yeah so Phil Sexton and his son Harry Sexton opening a Pills not only brewery, the former site of Temple was certainly not a sort of collection of words I thought I would write in 2034 if I looked back at the start. But yeah, so Keeper Brewing, ah they're taking over the Temple site ah temple site in Brunswick East.
00:01:08
Speaker
And they're only going to brew, not just Pilsner, but a single Pilsner called Keeper Pilsner. They'll have other beers on tap, importantly. A few people in the comments of the story didn't really get that part. But um yeah, and I guess the fact the Sexton family probably need not much of an introduction to listeners. we hope We'll try and get them on the podcast as soon as we can. but harry ah Harry's Phil's son. He'll be he'll be leading brery brewing and Phil, original founder of Matilda Bay, involved with Little Creatures. In between that he developed sort of one of the pioneering modern IPAs at Bridgeport in America. A few wineries involved in coffee. hey I think he had a bakery in Hillsville at some point, if if he doesn't still, a real maker. And Harry was the head brewer at Matilda Bay. Them and a couple of other staff members have sort of taken um taking over this space and they're reviving it. So it's awesome to see. Brunswick Reborn with Rocky Ridge taking over earth Thunder Road just a few, well, a couple hundred metres away really.
00:02:11
Speaker
Yes, um unless someone take if someone takes over the old alchemy site, which has been leased out, if it's a brewery, it means we're sort of at the same number of breweries as we were last year. Yeah, there you go. um Yeah, so it's interesting, like you know we were talking the other day, there's a bit of a one-out, one-in sort of thing going on in beer. Yes, there are some businesses that have closed, some that have gone into administration and come back.
00:02:33
Speaker
with the same owners but there's also been a number of examples now of other businesses where the new ones like keeper or whether existing breweries seen the opportunity yeah whether it's found a rocky ridge or cheeky monkey to actually take over a site of ah another brewery so i guess that's you know whether it's taking advantage of opportunities or whether it is a sign that you know things people are looking ahead positively You know, I'll add to that that they're called brew pubs and pub is an important part of that. People often own them for a number of the years and then sell them. You have pub groups that might have two or three. So it kind of looks like in the smaller side of the market, that's kind of what's happening more and more. It's very different for larger breweries at the moment, very different economic circumstances, but small breweries are able to still sell to a degree like we saw with Westside last week as well. Yeah, for sure.
00:03:23
Speaker
um So yeah, so that's that was our main story in between podcasts. um We have some other stories bubbling away that aren't quite ready to go live here that should add some more i aint positive news for the end of the year.
Upcoming Molly Rose Event
00:03:37
Speaker
um Aside from the event front though, we mentioned it last week, we've got our Molly Rose event for Beer Club members coming up in two or three weeks time. um Tickets are selling pretty fast for that. So get in quick if you'd like to join us at Molly Rose on December the 11th.
00:03:51
Speaker
um Aside from that, I guess, onto the main show. um This week we got two guests
IBA's 2023 Challenges with Kylie & Sabrina
00:03:56
Speaker
on wheel. Yes, so Kylie Lethbridge and Sabrina Kunz from the IBA. ah We thought with the year sort of coming to an end, it was a good chance to reflect on how it's been for the IBA and and what their focus has has been for 2024 and also look ahead to what they're doing next year. Same to say, they're doing a lot. it's It's a long episode. We cover a lot of ground.
00:04:18
Speaker
ah Just from a technical side of things, you will hear Kylie's dog bark a couple of times. And potentially some interference from a thunderstorm passing over her home um in in the Macedon Ranges. So fingers crossed that isn't too obvious. yeah they say It's a lot of insight into what they've been doing, but also some of the challenges that the indie beer industry is facing um and yeah hopefully we'll that'll be the first of sort of pretty regular chats with them yeah i mean particularly if you're an IBA member if you want to let us know or or let the IBA know if what you like about the episode but would sort of like to make them semi-regular they they could stand a bit separately from the main crafty pint podcast or something like that we're still working that out but um maybe let us know what you think or if you'd like shorter bites more often or something like that it's obviously
00:05:05
Speaker
It's important for the IVA to get their comms out, and it's also important for us to um give them a platform to tell the story of what they're focused on as well. And if you are going to send some feedback, you should like and subscribe and rate them. That's the most important feedback you can send. Yes, yes. And we've been getting lots of lovely feedback in person from people and emails and texts.
00:05:24
Speaker
But yeah, pump those buttons or whatever it is you're supposed to do. Yeah, boost that algorithm. So yeah, I guess without further ado. Yeah, we're off to Adelaide. So enjoy the show. Cheers. Cheers.
00:05:39
Speaker
ah sales reps Have you ever thought about how much time you spend on admin? Entering orders that come in over email, SMS, phone or even Instagram messages? Could that time be better spent on the road, meeting new customers, running tastings and building the brand?
Phobo's AI Platform for Sales Reps
00:05:55
Speaker
That's what it's all about, right?
00:05:57
Speaker
Well, that's where Phobo can help. Developed by people who are far smarter than I am, Phobo have created an AI platform that can read and process all of your customer orders instantaneously, no matter how they come in. Maybe Bill's bottle shop have sent you a text message saying, same as last week mate, or Ted's tavern with an email, give me a keg of pale. No matter how casual the message, Phobo's AI has been taught to speak the language of beer ordering.
00:06:27
Speaker
Give the team at Phobo a call and let them help you get back to what you do best, meeting new customers and looking after your existing ones. Visit phobo that f o b o h dot.com forward slash crafty hyphen pint And complete the brief form to find out more. And now back to the podcast. Kylie and Sabrina, thank you for joining us. Thanks for having us. Bye, guys.
00:06:57
Speaker
How you doing? Super well. Excellent. Right here in sunny Queensland. Yeah, well, it feels like Queensland here in Victoria at the minute. I think if if we start inspiring a little bit during this chat, it's not just because of the intensity of the conversation. It is actually pretty good here. So, thanks for joining us. ah It's been ah one heck of an eventful year for the beer industry again. um And I guess
IBA's Financial & Team Struggles
00:07:21
Speaker
first things first, like how are you guys going? How's it been? I know you've had to shrink the IBA team to an extent this year, you've you'll have been dealing day by day with businesses that are really struggling. You know, has it been sort of steering a ship for a year like this? um I won't, I won't feel, James, it's been a bit tough and it's, you know, those that have, have read our comms, you know, or been a part of um engaging with the IBA over time will know that
00:07:52
Speaker
I'm generally pretty honest with our members, pretty transparent about how things are going and um and and and have certainly continued that trend this year. Tried not to certainly talk just about the challenges but it has been really tough for us. um we ah We talk regularly about you know being small but scrappy team and we absolutely are.
00:08:16
Speaker
But as we come to the end of 2024, like any calendar year, I think everybody's a bit weary. And so we'll be looking forward to a bit of rest over they a little bit of a rest over Christmas and to regroup for 2025. Losing some of the team has been really tough, um not just because it means we've still got to deliver all of the things with less people. But as you know, some of those team members have been with us for a very long time. And so that was really hard.
00:08:47
Speaker
Yeah. thought I think everyone's sort of getting to the end of the, whether you're in the beer industry or not, I think everyone's getting to the end of this year weary. Um, and it feels like this is probably the fourth or fifth year in a row where we're going surely next year has to be there. So crossing, crossing fingers again. And what about you use Sabrina? You've been, a I guess, a newer, um, recruit to the IBA. Yeah, I think it's been a really interesting year. I think, um,
00:09:12
Speaker
it's kind of offered the opportunity for reflection. And by that, I mean, when the going's good, everybody's sort of tearing straight ahead into what they think the future's gonna look like. And as Kylie said, every time you have one of these challenging conversations, it's actually forcing us to be a lot more innovative and a lot more sure about kind of what are the things that are important. So I found it difficult very tired at the end of this year. ah But I think, you know, it's just forcing you to really get back to nuts and bolts and decide what matters. um And so i I think, you know, all of our members are doing that. All of the breweries are doing that. Every small business in Australia is doing that. ah Consumers are doing that with their own finances, and it's certainly forcing us to to make calls about what matters.
00:10:05
Speaker
And looking at the year, like obviously with so many breweries going through VA a and and probably considering it or or closing or shrinking their team, like like how how's that felt for the IBA? I imagine you you're having conversations about this very frequently. We have. um And I guess there's two parts to this, Will, in that on the scale of breweries,
00:10:35
Speaker
independent breweries even in this country, the amount of voluntary administrations because they've got such air seem to be bigger I think than what they are. It's quite a small number and in in retrospect and and I don't take anything away from the people that have had to go through that process because we now have a much better understanding of what that looks like and it's awful. So with all due respect to them, to those that have gone come out the other end or not come out the other end,
00:11:04
Speaker
on the size and scale in terms of total, compared to total industry, it's not a huge amount for us. What's not seen, um but we, we, um we're very much in the thick of it because you know, as well as we do, how close we are to our members and how tight knit the industry is, is that the small business restructuring and the struggles that are going on without having gotten to that voluntary administration phase. They're the tougher phone calls to be really frank and they have come thick and fast this year. And so, you know, that part is very hard for us having to go through it with our members and particularly hearing things like, I don't want to talk to the team about this. I don't want to talk to my family about this. And so it's us, us that has these conversations. And like everybody else,
00:11:55
Speaker
We are trying to be as flexible and open and and and supportive as possible with yes, we understand you can't pay your invoice now. So that's been a difficult time and a shift from ah from our perspective in um in having to do, you know, chase bills. and And that makes relationships really difficult. So it's definitely this year has shown us, shown me in particular, I won't speak for the rest of the team, but a different way of having to work that has put a little dampener on our culture, to be frank, and it's made it hard for us to wear that pressure as well. um But in saying that, just in this last few months, we have been so happy. I have been doing an Irish jig to be able to celebrate some wins, to be able but be able to
00:12:48
Speaker
welcome members back on board to be able to go to new venues and scream proud and loud about people, and um some of our members expanding into other states or or growing their business or or being really innovative. So thankfully, the last half has topped off with some good news. um But it it's it's safe to say it's been a little tough.
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah, we will you sort of described it last we were chatting a sort of a one in one out to an extent like but with some of the administration's they've either, whether they've not come back other people have moved in, you know, and we're aware of potentially other announcements coming imminently about, you know, not necessarily new openings, but reopenings, but you know, under new owners. And I guess there are still new people entering the market. There are existing brewers, like you say, opening into site or opening new venues um in a different manner to maybe what would have been happening a few years ago, except I suppose we'll just keep opening massive places. and Do you do you feel that's, you know,
00:13:49
Speaker
a sign that people are thinking, you know, the worst is over or it's going to get better or it's just sort of blind faith or it's just some of the businesses are good enough that they see an opportunity and and moving ahead with those opportunities? ah I think it's um the latter there, James. I think certainly, as Kylie said, the number of voluntary administrations is not representative of the total industry. And there are a lot of breweries, independent breweries, who had a really clear business plan and have a really clear business plan and are executing on that business plan. um And so we are seeing growth. We're seeing some really great things from some of our members. um and And so it's not everyone. And so it's not being treated even. I think the one thing to add is that, you know, obviously
00:14:38
Speaker
The voluntary administrations has had a significant impact on our suppliers who are ah also associate members of the IBA. And so as your coverage has shown, there's sort of differing views about what's going on in the industry right now. But what it means is as a result of voluntary administrations trading terms have tightened.
00:15:00
Speaker
for breweries, which means that if you are a brewery that is doing well or doing okay, you need to hold more working capital to get through this next bumper season. And that flow on effect to some of our smaller breweries. So to Kylie's point, not in administration, but tightening up in every direction, that's where there seems to be this rub still. So it is this balance, you know, the conversations can be quiet quite varied. so I think there are some folks who are going to have a great summer and I think there are some ah where the macroeconomic environment is just going to make trading really, really difficult.
00:15:38
Speaker
yeah And in terms of back on the IBA a bit, obviously your funding and support is tied up to membership, size of breweries as well. It feels like most of the openings are are on the smaller side and may continue into the future in terms of production. Like like how do you sort of navigate that as an organisation on top of, you know, maybe suppliers as well who have been taking hits from all sides and are also dealing with the macroeconomic situation of 2024?
00:16:11
Speaker
we yeah the As you've noted well, and and for many of your listeners, the way that you buy membership to the IBA if you're a brewery is is based on a tiered structure of predicated on yeah annual production. So between X and X in terms of how much beer you produce each year. And ah that has been, so aside from the challenges within the supply chain that Sabrina articulated that I'll draw a little more on, but um is the greatest hit to us is not those that can't afford to be a member of the IBA because people are amazing and are going, if I do nothing else, it's to maintain my membership because
00:16:56
Speaker
they know and everybody knows we're the only organisation fighting for for beer generally each and every day and so um overall on on the size and scale of brewery membership you know at ah at our and highest we were we had 585 odd members generally that's reduced but the reduction in breweries production is the thing that has made a big impact. And so, you know, and we made a statement a couple of months ago that this was our lowest membership revenue since I had come on board um and both from associates and and and those industry supporters as well as breweries. So that that has been a bit tough, especially when you enjoy zero government funding. We're the only
00:17:43
Speaker
drinks, alcohol drinks industry in the country that doesn't receive government funding from um the federal perspective and and a lot from the state. I know we're going to talk a bit more about what we've done to try and alleviate that at a state level, but um without that prop up funding, when times are tough for your members, then times are tough for you. So absolutely, it's been a juggling act to answer your question, Will. It's been being as frugal as you can. It's about cutting all those things that it might be desirable rather than need be. We've rejigged systems. We've done all of the things possible to save as much money as we can before we had to reduce our staff. Unfortunately, we then had to ah to cut back on the team. um We've had to sadly you know cancel things that might
00:18:32
Speaker
be revenue generators in in a good time for us, but we know in in tough times won't be and the risk of doing them is too great to even go down the path and and just really super focus on, okay, what have we got the money to do? What do our members need the most? And to try and commercialise, to try and look at other revenue streams and to try and apply for every grant every grant around that we're eligible for.
00:18:58
Speaker
The problem with that is that the states all dried up after all the COVID grants came out. And so there's not a huge amount of government funding out there for organizations like ours. So um we'll continue to do that. But um it's been ah it's been an adaptation every day. And I won't tell you that there hasn't been some sleepless nights.
00:19:20
Speaker
I remember some conversation with you right at the start of the year where you were hoping there was going to be some sort of more positive noises or announcements from the the government in a couple of areas which hasn't transpired. is Are they still on the back burner or are you feeling that you know that craft beer and indie beer has been sort of pushed to one side at that level to an extent?
00:19:45
Speaker
Sabrina tells this story well, so I'll let her talk about what happened after our hopeful hopeful ah outcome of the federal budget submission earlier this year.
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think um James, we're always hopeful and the foot is not off the gas. So I think that's, you know, top line message. Everybody who's listening that cares about indie beer, the IBA is advocating for everyday indie beer and we are small but scrappy. So foot is not off the gas. um I think that's the most important point. The second point is we were hopeful after some noises in the lead up to the last federal budget that there may be funding announced.
00:20:26
Speaker
um And in fact, we sort of, you know, off the record heard some things. And I was at a function with Kylie as an important sort of industry function as the federal budget was being handed down. And we sort of didn't have the opportunity to to speak. But in the four years that I've known Kylie, I've never seen her face look like that. And let's just say there wasn't much of an exchange of words, but there was a very stiff drink ordered off the back of that. So it took sort of 24 hours for us to be less furious. What I will say is, so since the federal budget was handed down, we've met with um representatives, so politicians on all sides of um government and the opposition, ah thanks to a lot of our members who have activated when we've asked them. So we go to our members and say, please write to your federal MP about this issue that we're advocating about.
00:21:19
Speaker
That's gotten open doors for meetings and generally raised awareness because what we have been finding is it always astounds us at these federal meetings. um ah I'll give you an example. We had a Friends of Parliament meeting. I'm standing next to a federal representative. And ah we talk about um home brand beer. And they would say to me, there's no home brand beer. did this I've never seen a home brand beer.
00:21:46
Speaker
I was like, well, let me bring you up this image and show you all of these brands that are owned by the retailers. Oh, I didn't know that was happening. And so the gulf of knowledge between what we know is going on in the market and what the federal representatives know is going on in the market is large. So a lot of our time is educating and that's where a lot of our members have been really successful. So um and I know we're going to talk about sort of forward-looking. You know, there's a lot of good education has gone on this year that's setting a pretty solid foundation. And for an organisation of our size, we are being invited to the table ah for a lot of discussions. And I think that's, you know, five years ago, we we weren't at the table. So that's saying something about how far we've come.
00:22:34
Speaker
Everybody knows that building a relationship that is meaningful takes some time. and And so we never expected that, you know, as a result of a run on media that we've had in mainstream, as a result of the engagement that Sabrina talks about across the board. And and the activities that we've invested in at Parliament Housing Canberra, wherever that might be over the time, has generated some significant ambassadors. we we We now have ambassadors at a federal level, again, across the parties that are going, okay, I'm now well informed, I now understand,
00:23:06
Speaker
ah You know, you're the drink of moderation. I know that what you're doing in this regard, I read your submissions. I know I'm more informed about how things happen. And that's one of the things that has led to what I call, you know, a kind of never never happened before, highly likely to never happen again, where excise reform, which is the tax framework we operate in, has been debated on the floor of parliament by a private business motion from the national party.
00:23:35
Speaker
You know, we've lost count now of how many times because it's still an open motion as to how many times it's being debated. You make an appointment to talk to these things and somebody fights for it and somebody fights against it. All of our stats are being used. All of our information is being used. My words are being used and s Sabrina's words are being used as is the chairman. And so this is um turning the Titanic because, you know, the the kind of change we're looking for doesn't happen overnight.
00:24:04
Speaker
but We certainly do feel like we've we've had inroads into that just being heard as small beer and as a consortium of fundamentally employers across the country.
00:24:23
Speaker
Yeah sorry ah like a big part of this year I think and maybe one of the shining lights has been that media attention like I think this year 2024 will be sort of looked back as yeah very different to certainly any other year I've been writing about beer so how's that sort of felt and do you think the message is coming across?
Media's Role in Highlighting Beer Issues
00:24:43
Speaker
Well I was going to say for me it's not just the and yeah so and the messaging that's been getting through the coverage. It's actually been, it's felt like it's been respectful on its coverage as well. I was felt for years that the only time beer hit the mainstream media, it was, oh my God, women drink beer, why is beer made with stupid ingredients and why is craft beer so expensive? That was like the three stories that went on rotation. Whereas at least a year now there's been stuff, you know, using your stats, using, you know, this information, stories about home brands, stories about the challenges of indie beer. And yeah, it's been,
00:25:17
Speaker
So that that has to be a really good launchpad, you'd think, for getting the information to more people. I pulled a stat for our annual report. um So that's year end 30, June this year. And in the preceding year, we'd had 147 articles or interviews.
00:25:37
Speaker
with the IBA. So that's Kylie on record, mostly Kylie, some was Rich Watkins and Callum as our chairman. But basically that's a massive uplift in and that's mainstream media, all sorts of publications. And so that was not a lobbyist with no any money other than paying a media release service. so So that is really sort of, you know, that's really starting to get, um as you say, honest coverage of the issues.
00:26:06
Speaker
um And we're also working through some data. We've had some consumer polling done and we kind of haven't finalised it. But one of the sort of things that has jumped out is um a large proportion of Australians and Australian voters don't know that excise increases twice a year. So despite that massive amount of coverage, there is still a gap in knowledge by consumers about this tax regime that puts the price of beer up fundamentally twice a year.
00:26:35
Speaker
on a never ending scale. And so, um you know, back to where are there some opportunities? There's certainly opportunities for us, for your listeners, for everyone to activate and speak to their tech to help these advocacy efforts. So I think those two stats really reflect back um what the year is and what we've got to do going forward. And a few of those that have made meaningful engagements, some long form media that is television or journals that have promised to track it over time. So tell me when something changes. We're just about to receive a new set of of data and information benchmarking our old stats back to 2021. And so much of that is, you know, keep me posted. And and again, that's a change for us over time of
00:27:26
Speaker
of, as you say, James, finally being heard, finally being taken seriously because I don't talk about being craft beanrup beer makers. I talk about being manufacturers and small business and and employers and hospitality providers and all of the other things that we actually are, as well as making an amazing product out the other end.
00:27:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's one of the things we sort of come back to as well, you know, in part from doing the podcast and the different people we've been speaking to is when you look at it as the industry and the other industries around it and the employment and how how many other parts of, you know, the community or society it touches upon. I think it becomes a pretty compelling story in terms of innovation, community sustainability. Like it's a very it is a good story if people are willing to, you know, are willing to listen. um And I guess in sort of returning and to extend to a different sort of part of and dealing with government or associations, you've been doing a lot of work. I mean, it's been going on for years in different ways. But in terms of partnerships um on a state levels and working with different organizations, that was a big focus of the conference in WA, for example, around the Indies. And is that something that, you know, has been going well this year that, you know, you you feel that at least there's some traction on that front?
00:28:39
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. um And and you'll you know you've listened to me now for but four and a half years, James, but it was one of the things that I set out to achieve when I started was not only being recognised at a federal level, because that's where most of our regulation comes from, but um while the federal, while doing that work was not going to happen overnight, and then we had excise reform, so it effectively kind of did immediately happen overnight, and then nothing since, is that while that federal game was was, you know, we call it the long game, that um that it was important to have some policy or strategy and play locally. and And by that, I mean local government or state government, because there ah I had come from an industry, you know, industry sectors where we had state plans and and understood the benefit that came from that.
00:29:33
Speaker
When I came on board, we had the Queensland Craft Strategy that was in place but not being implemented. And we had New South Wales that was being, that was in place and and they were doing an excellent job of implementing it. And so we were able to say, look at that. It was also while we were going through, you know, still a little growth period before we realized a lot of the bumps. And so um over time, we've, ah we're we're waiting for an announcement. You know, we all celebrated together the new Western Australian craft strategy two or three months ago, ah waiting for a date to head down to Tassie and launch via Tasmania, which is ah is a new plan dedicated to Tassie and and our and hopefully announce our successful funding application to start implementing that.
00:30:25
Speaker
We, in South Australia, we did the work a little differently because that's a bit tricky. Strangely enough, their wine industry is a little bit powerful over there. um And so we've written the plan ourselves and are now, with our state chapter lead, Steve Brockman, going to start socializing that with members and then we'll try and chop that through government. So we're doing it a slightly different way. When those two plans are in play, um and we get Queensland going again, that'll be all of the states that has some policy or strategy in play to support independent craft beer. So you know it's a tick in that um multiple government departments then have a remit to actually care about us, which is really helpful to point to the plan and go, your state's got a plan. Can you please help us via that? And funding comes from it. So um absolutely hard work, but
00:31:23
Speaker
absolutely necessary at the other end, particularly if we never get anything from the federal government in terms of change. And I think, you know, the partnerships that flow from that, you mentioned Wobba, you know, out what our industry wants right now is outcomes and that I really care who delivers it.
00:31:44
Speaker
um And well what our associate member and supply chain partners want is not 100 people asking them for support, it's to say, this is where the industry is going, get in behind it. So what we're trying to do is leverage the federal advocacy work, the state strategies that Kylie's talked about and basically everything we do and say,
00:32:05
Speaker
We're happy to be the team that helps get everybody to the table, but we don't have to be the team that delivers it. And we don't even have to be the team that has our names up in lights because what we care about is delivering for our members. And so I think that partnership approach, I know we're we're going backwards, but on the go forward is absolutely what our members want to see from the industry, writ large, and we're happy to um to play the role in making that happen. Yeah.
00:32:32
Speaker
Well, talking a move forward, I guess we will take a break now and come back and have a chat about the plans for 2025 and beyond the hopes and dreams for a glorious year ahead. um So we'll see you after the break. Sounds good. Beer, music and food lovers rejoice because tickets are on sale now for the 10th annual High Country Hop, taking place in stunning Beechworth on Saturday, March 22nd and celebrating the Victorian Hop Harvest in an unmissable beer and music festival.
00:33:02
Speaker
Taste the freshest beers of the year from Australia's best indie brewers, including Bridge Road, Mountain Culture, Kaiju, Wildflower, Love Shack and Range Brewing, joined by the high country's famed breweries, winemakers, craft distillers and more.
00:33:19
Speaker
It's a family-friendly day out. Revel in an inspired music line-up, headlined by ARIA award-winner Kai'it and Japanese good-time garage rockers the 5-6-7-8s, plus kids' activities and cardboard creations from Fox Wars. The High Country Hop is the destination festival for every beer lover. Limited early bird tickets on sale at thehighcountryhop.com.au, hosted by Bridge Road Brewers.
00:33:48
Speaker
And now back to the podcast. And we're back. Carly and Sabrina, let's talk about 2025. Obviously there's some big, still sort of from 2024 advocacy issues looming large. There's issues around defining beer, CDS, like like um what's the sort of key focus for the IBA early next year? What we try and do more regularly is just check in and make sure that what we're doing is, you know, is what was going to benefit the industry as a whole, where our members want us to be in one, three, 10 years' time. And so um we know that the tax framework is a big issue. But we also know that a you know regulation in general makes it very tough to to to do anything in this country, to be honest. We are a highly regulated society. And so um what
00:34:46
Speaker
what we've done in in, I guess, building from that disappointment that we talked about with our federal budget submission and taking advantage of some of the new members of parliament as independence, taking advantage of some of those people that I talked about that have become advocates and building up effectively, you know, the media coverage has not stopped. It's certainly ramped down, but we'll ramp it up again as soon as we've got new data. Some of us are off to Canberra on Friday to meet with the Prime Minister's office. um we We've had some good support these last little while after having none for quite some time.
00:35:26
Speaker
ah from this government, even from the Prime Minister given he has got such a large concentration of our members and small breweries in his electorate, it's been crickets. And so that's been very disappointing for us. So we're taking advantage of this opportunity to talk to his policymakers on a range of issues. So what we've done effectively is tried to put a platform together that has some benefit for all of our members at some point, as well as seeking some funding from the for the IBA, because as I said before, we don't receive any. We're also taking advantage with the view that there's probably going to be a federal election announced in April, May, um that the coalition has made some very public promises through the National Party.
00:36:13
Speaker
It's our understanding that they're still talking through what that looks like in terms of a pre-election promise for some tax reform on for either excise um tax or for hospitality in general. We know that the industry is hurting across the country when it comes to hospo and so from a tourism perspective and all the other reasons, I think they're looking to broaden that as well as again meeting with those crossbenchers and looking at the possibility of there being more independence out of the next election. We'll also at the same time look beyond this election to whoever comes in government with a whole new range of um
00:36:54
Speaker
ways in which they can support us once we get our research back that tells us where the industry is at now, what they might need now versus what they needed a couple of years back. James, the thing that I think it's really important for consumers um and the industry writ large to know is how many forces are currently at play that are going to make being a small brewer more challenging. And so we call this the death by a thousand cuts. It's the kind of thing that is really um You're a small brewery, you're four people, you're busy trying to sell beer, run your hospitality business. But if you don't pay attention of these things, there's literally not going to be a space for small indie brewers to play in the future because it is just the regulatory burden is becoming so difficult. So, um you know, I'll rattle off a couple of things, but we've got Food Standards Australia New Zealand who regulate
00:37:51
Speaker
Food safety, um their their act is under review and they're looking at having a broader health remit, which obviously means that when decisions are being made as it relates to food safety,
00:38:03
Speaker
They're taking a long-term health view and often using that to make it harder for brewers ah to to do what we think should be basic things. um So that's the Fezzans Act review. That's ongoing. We are am waiting for results from food standards in relation to nutritional information panels and energy labelling on beer.
00:38:28
Speaker
We're expecting that outcome in December, heads up ah industry. We think it's gonna be pretty good for us this time. um And so maybe we'll send everybody a bouquet of flowers. So so that one sounds like it's not gonna be worse than the current situation um but for the vast majority of our members. It could could have been a lot worse. We were anticipating it being a lot worse. We've got sugar and carbohydrates are outstanding. So there was a consultation in relation to um different ways of calculating in added sugars and sugar and carbohydrates on beers. So some of that is rolled into energy labeling and some of it isn't. um We've also just had landed on our desk nutrition health star review of the entire health star system for all food in the country. And of course, wrapping alcohol into that. so So we need to respond to that. So that's four things out of one government agency, all of which could have actual cost
00:39:26
Speaker
impacts on brewers, um particularly as it comes to labelling. um We've also got, you've mentioned sort of a couple of things outstanding with the Australian Tax Office, the ATO. The ATO, I want to call it stepped on a rake um when they proactively came out with something that um industry just sort of responded very forcefully um and and had to withdraw it. And that essentially sought to say, hey, you know, that thing that you've all been doing for 50 years where you use high gravity brewing and you dilute the water at the end with water at the end to bring it back to the ABV you want. Actually, you can't do that anymore. And industry all went, don't do that.
00:40:13
Speaker
They tried again and they sent out another version. um And in that version, they tried to say, actually, we're going to tell you what beer is. We realize that there are lots of other regulatory things that say where beer is, but we the ATO, we know best. And we're going to tell you what is characteristically beer.
00:40:32
Speaker
Needless to say, again, us and our members had a lot to say about whether a brewer or a tax agent is best placed to make a decision about what constitutes beer. And there was sort of a bit of walking back on that. And we're now on sort of option three. And so we're waiting for the outcome of that. But it's safe to say that the whole of industry, so all beer,
00:40:54
Speaker
um really had our voices very strenuously heard when it came to that and thanks to a lot of our members who got legal advice, participated, answered the call when we put it out. So that was a big piece of work because what that would have meant for innovation in craft beer is that if you're a small brewer and you're saying, I'm following this piece of legislation, this piece of legislation and this piece of legislation, and I'm making an innovative product, which is the foundation of indie beer,
00:41:27
Speaker
someone at a future point in time could say, actually, that's not beer. And now you need to pay excise, a different um taxation regime on that. So it created no certainty for our members. Can you just explain to businesses who might want to be aware of this, some examples of what that might be, what what what sort of products could have could fall under that or could have fallen under that um sort of, I guess, reverse characterisation and and lead to higher tax rates?
00:41:54
Speaker
So a good couple of examples. um We think the example that the ATO were targeting of ah functionally brewed seltzers. So the ATO were interested in saying and that a seltzer that is brewed because it is clear cannot be defined as beer, notwithstanding that it meets all of the other definitions of beer. And they were trying to use that as the reason to say you need to be taxed higher. That's what we think they were targeting. The net result was, I mean, the example that was given to me from a couple of brewers was a Berlin of Ice, who, because it is not characteristically multi,
00:42:35
Speaker
um off the palette because maybe the colour wasn't necessarily in this amber range. Would that, based on a definition pulled out of Webster's Dictionary, be characteristically beer? And as your listeners probably know, James, I think the US Brewers Association style guidelines have about 146 different styles. And there are new and emerging styles every year, new subcategories that that are considered to be beer. And everyone in the brewing community would agree, yes, that's a beer. And so, you know, our argument is that just because something isn't um particularly malt hops water yeast in the way that perhaps a traditional lager was many years ago doesn't make it not beer.
00:43:25
Speaker
I think the challenge to James and to add to Sabrina's point is, um that again, for listeners that don't understand, an RTD, a ready to drink, you know, pre-mix in a can, ah is taxed at a higher rate. And so what the ATO were looking at and trying to pick up, um particularly via their bird's eye on a seltzer or a ginger beer, is ah these brewers producing something that should be taxed at an RTD rate versus a beer rate because the beer rate is lower to to produce a brewed product. And so the ATO sets out a definition, which we went back in 2022 and said, yeah, still spot on according to us.
00:44:13
Speaker
um ah and And as Sabrina said, malt and the scientific, you know, certain amount of IBUs and what fits in beer. And and a brewed seltzer is mentioned in that definition. The problem for the ATO in the revenue lens, revenue collection lens ah or a compliance or whatever other lens they use is um is we don't understand that that pink thing is not an RTD because there's no proof of of um of it being brewed, going through a brewing process is that's similar to a beer. And so obviously, you you better than anyone will know how many of our members that was potentially going to impact because we push your boundaries with these styles and because there's so many of these skews out there. um And so you'll see in our submissions that we went quite hard about
00:45:09
Speaker
you know, if you're trying to, do if this is what you're trying to do, it's not the right way to do it. I try and turn back the clock and go, all beer must just be this thing again, you know. Or James, they could um ah implement a fair taxation regime based on ABV, ah which ah which would then, it wouldn't matter how you defined it, because it would be all alcohol. um And we know that beer is the adult beverage of moderation.
00:45:40
Speaker
um And we are the only people consistently producing high quality products at 3.5% lower. So there is an option available to government in the ATO to make enforcement and regulation easy. um It's just, um you know. It's not politically palatable. It's not politically palatable. I'm very fair.
00:46:01
Speaker
It would be logical and fair. um It's not politically palatable until we make it so. and And we can come back to that big opportunity. But I'll just rattle off the other things that are sort of still in the in the works. We've got um federal inquiries open currently into food and beverage manufacturing. The IBA um presented before that. And again, we're hoping that some of the outcomes, that inquiry was looking at increasing productivity and innovation in food and
Regulatory Challenges for Breweries
00:46:29
Speaker
beverage manufacturing. so you know, we were able to make the case there that some of these red tape issues we're talking about are actually dampening productivity and innovation. There's an ongoing inquiry into the harm of alcohol and other drugs, which necessarily means there could be some ah recommendations and outcomes that affect our members. um There's the outcomes of the supermarkets inquiries, which whilst not directly relevant, there are recommendations and things that we're hoping to borrow from.
00:47:00
Speaker
as it relates to the major retailers. um We've got New South Wales have got a regulation open to change the liquor act at the moment that we're responding to. And these are just the things that are currently open. So um and we haven't kind of gotten to a really big one, which I know is a passion point for all of us here. But um the administrative burden and cost of container deposit schemes in each and every state and territory in Australia and what that means for small producers.
00:47:31
Speaker
So those things combined just give you an understanding of the regulatory landscape that we're responding to. and I think what's important for consumers and us to know is we just focus on the things that really touch beer as a product and producers of beer. There are all sorts of other things that are out at the moment that are being tackled by small business associations as it relates to payroll tax and other things that affect small business. Our remit has always really been to help identify those for our members, but to be focused on the things that are
00:48:05
Speaker
Nobody else is touching, which is the beer-related things. So, um... So you did say your team's now 26, not 2.6? Small but scrappy, James. thank you Um, but, but, um, thankfully, uh, we've managed, I think, and hopefully our members feel this, to do a good job with what we've got and, um,
00:48:31
Speaker
and And that is you know certainly in part to s Sabrina having come on, she brings a different skill set and we've evolved that over certainly her time with the IBA. And it's also meant that i've we have been able to then do more. So when I was sort of, it was just me, it was it was a lot less in terms of being able to respond and certainly a lot less number crunching. We found some great research through universities and other things that we've been able to put together.
00:49:01
Speaker
um And certainly the funding request that we've put to the federal government is that we have a little more breathing space to actually do some of this. So when it comes to um cancer warning and plain packaging coming back to our industry, which it will, because our health advocates, it's the number one thing on their radar is to have alcohol look like cigarettes.
00:49:27
Speaker
And so we're gearing up now as an industry, working with spirits, working with wine, working with big beer to be ready for when that happens. And so it's a constant chase your tail. It's a constant, oh, here's a piece of consultation that we think we should be involved in because we know it will have a broader benefit on members.
00:49:46
Speaker
And so, yeah, we would love 26 people to do this, James, but I'm sure so would you. Yeah, for sure. And just going back to the container deposit scheme, can you sort of, I guess... in as close to a nutshell as you can to explain what the challenges are that brings to the industry. I guess on a cost basis in terms of what it costs a small business to be involved, you know, to follow the laws, but also what is actually on the agenda for you in terms of trying to improve the situation.
00:50:22
Speaker
I think James, so full disclosure for your listeners, I sit on the board of COEX, which is the organization that um does the container refund scheme in Queensland. And I'm there in part to represent small beverage manufacturers at the board table so they can understand how decisions being made affect small business. So I think it's positive. I sit there representing Victoria.
00:50:43
Speaker
So I think, you know, for listeners in Queens, Victoria has just increased their CDS scheme rates to the highest in the country. So it's 14.7 cents per container.
00:50:55
Speaker
What that functionally means is four cents, the 10 cents, you know, 14 cents goes from our brewer to the scheme. um And then the scheme hands the 10 cents over to Joe Bloggs, who brings the container back. And the 4.7 cents stays in the scheme to run the overall scheme. And so um for every beer that is made, um our members pay in 4.7 cents in Victoria.
00:51:23
Speaker
2.6 cents in WA, 3.3 cents in Queensland to run a new body that is supposed to improve recycling um in those states. And I think the challenge is, you know, for beer, um but ah we've been using a stat that ah that I came up with about a year ago based on some data, but beer is one of the only industries that produces 66 new SKUs a week.
00:51:52
Speaker
So if you think about the soft drinks who might be covered by a CDS scheme or beer or wine and spirits, which is only in Queensland, they're producing one vintage.
00:52:03
Speaker
One Jack Daniels, it never changes. like They're not producing and needing to register across small businesses 66 new products a week. They're also not selling in as containers as small as ours. Even soft drinks through retailers don't change like beer changes. Craft beer is built on innovation and change in small run production.
00:52:23
Speaker
and there is absolutely no um carve out for certain volumes you know so if you're just doing takeaway sales through your tap room it doesn't matter that has to be registered if it comes in a can or a container so I think We really are very unique in the landscape, which is why some of this regulatory stuff like CDS, like labelling impacts being more simply by virtue of the way yeah of what our product is and what our market is. And so, um you know, consumers take your 10 cents back, ah get it. um You know, that's great. We're going to always be encouraging our breweries to um leverage the opportunity to help with the recycling, but also maybe they could be the recipients of the 10 cents.
00:53:08
Speaker
um would be my dream. um If they collect the containers on site, they get the 10 cents back into the kiddies. So I think there's ways that we can make sure as a community that we support our small producers and the costs that they bear on these schemes. Absolutely. There's nothing better than handing over your six boxes of cans and picking up a case of beer really feels like you you've done the right thing. that That's how I do it anyway. Or at least have a couple of pints after the hours of...
00:53:39
Speaker
Carl, in Sabrina, I'd love to turn to the consumer side of things. We've talked a lot about politics and looking at things from top down.
Promoting the Independent Beer Seal
00:53:46
Speaker
You know, I saw you shout out that ah King River, one ah one of my favourite local breweries, is pushing hard on the independent seal and ah obviously it has been around for a long time. Like, where do you see the sort of future of that or what's the focus for in 2025?
00:54:05
Speaker
Didn't that fill your heart? Didn't that just give you all the little gooseys and all the feels? ah you know Not only not only is is Nathan a super good bloke and I feel like I've kind of worked with him you know since they started to grow and evolve. So we see each other at all the events and we have a big hug and it's like old pals.
00:54:26
Speaker
And he but he makes really good beer aside from anything else. And and it's not like, you know, I say this all the time, I can't have favorite children. I don't have a favorite member. I don't have a favorite. But he certainly, um he certainly is pushing it. And since we celebrated that, that all Australian IPA that he's released, you know, seal on the front of the, independent seal on the front of the can.
00:54:49
Speaker
he's He's swung a few my way. It's a super good tasting beer. um It's really different because of all the the Australian ingredients partners, but it's a really nice it's a really nice drink. He's then made a video just to top it off, talking to consumers about why they should support you know independent beer and why they should look for it. And so to to us, again, after a tough year, these things just, you know, say it all the time, fills my cup. And, you know, when the IBA set back ah set out back in 2019, they launched the seal, they did all of the things, they made a big, you know, we're going to do this with it. And then the world changed in 2020. And so since then, we've certainly done our best to run national marketing campaigns, run national awareness campaigns that says look for the seal. In my view, if a member goes through the cost
00:55:42
Speaker
and takes the time to celebrate their independence by using that seal either on product or in venue, then we should be backing that up by making sure we're raising awareness as well. And you know if we're if we were um if we were a membership organisation that didn't have such a bri a broad remit, then we might have been you know doing that and just that. and And so what we want to do moving forward, building on what we've done this year, which is a couple of viral campaigns, working with our consumer events that do are happy to work with us and display the seal. You know, we've we've that those of us who have celebrated together here in barbecue in Adelaide before do that really well.
00:56:28
Speaker
We're looking for new partnerships with consumer events. You know, it's our, it's my belief and our, where we're at that we can't run our own consumer events. That's not who we are. There's a lot out there. So we'll work with the ones that are happy to work in partnership with us. Like Local Beer Day in Pine of Origin. Local Beer Day, I was just about to say, Local Beer Day in Pine of Origin. Because we just literally have been working on our 2025 program. So it's definitely front and center.
00:56:57
Speaker
um in in doing that. So again, spending our valuable resources, making sure that our members who do use it are seeing that benefit and making sure that they've got the tools, they've got the guidelines, they've got the design ideas.
00:57:13
Speaker
The tin tackers, all the things that we can do for them. So a consumer when in venue or looking for that product knows that if they turn that can and they see a seal, what that actually means. And for all of the reasons that Sabrina talked about earlier of supermarket brands telling, you know, quirky stories of two blokes and a cart or whatever it was, you know, we want to make sure that there's a recognisable device that if an Australian wants to support an Australian brewery that they can. And you sort of potentially inspired a similar campaign in the UK as well with Seba launching their Get Behind Indie Beer sort of similar campaign recently as well. I know you've been speaking to them ah and for and for some time. We've tried to do a little more work James. um Certainly this last 12 months just you know putting your head up and having a look at what others are doing.
00:58:12
Speaker
There's, and trying to, I guess, find like for like. You know, we've looked at what Canada are doing. Sabrina comes from New Zealand, in the from the, you know, the EO of the Guild. So she brings all of that experience from from our pals over the ditch. We've started to, you know, I meet regularly with the CEO of of Seba, which for those that don't know is the Society of Independent Brewers in the yeah UK. They have similar but but slightly different challenges than what we face.
00:58:42
Speaker
Um, and so we're all learning from each other. You know, I'm looking at recently at what the world, there's a world brewing Alliance, which looks pretty sexy. They just met in Geneva. Um, of course we couldn't, we would have had to have taken a bus, but, um, uh, you know, there's some, there's some good stuff going around in this and there's some,
00:59:01
Speaker
worldwide organisations that are working together to do research to mitigate some of the things that we've been talking about. So sometimes, you know, for who do you to kind of lift your head up and see what other people are doing? And so um we did work, we did talk and work and share some information with CBER and they've certainly shared some information with us on on some research they've done, which we've been able to to adapt and apply. You know, they've got a government now that has come out and happy to come out publicly and say we support small breweries. And so we're trying to show our government that that's actually an okay thing to do and and why and how they can say the same thing. Sabrina looked at Canada as well. And so um we were really happy. I was really, really happy to see when I got the newsletter that said we're doing indie beer, they were like, you beauty, it's a worldwide thing now.
00:59:54
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, we'll wrap up in a second, but I know one thing listeners will want to know in terms of BruCon next year, when when can people sort of expect an announcement of what's going on? So we'll we'll be announcing our program before the end of the year. Well, in 2024, we'll say this is what we are doing and this is what we're not doing. In 2025, Indie Beer Day ah is Hopefully, back on the agenda. Sabrina is super passionate about it and I'm, I'm, I have no doubt will make it happen. um As you know, because we've been having a chat we're trying to do more with, you know, promoting kind of origin and what's happening around that point of time trying to evolve local bidet.
01:00:38
Speaker
you know, integrate with individual day if it can. um And so we'll and there's a few other things too that that industry doing that again, when I spoke at the beginning, I said, we're trying to avoid duplication and partner where possible. There's a few of our industry suppliers that are doing and and talking about doing some really cool stuff. So we're going to partner with them as well. So we'll have that released for um members and therefore industry by the end of this year.
01:01:07
Speaker
Fantastic. Okay, we we best wrap up soon. but And as you said, Kylie, you're not allowed to play favourites, but for both of you, are there any local breweries or local beers you're stoked for on that very short break you're going to take over the holiday period? I'm going to go first because I might steal some of Kylie's thunder, so I'm just going to jump in. and um Both Kylie and I are huge fans of the King um River ginger beer.
01:01:36
Speaker
Um, it's as when it's, you know, 30 plus degrees, a brewed ginger beer. I put ice in mine. Don't look down on me. It's perfect in the Queensland summer. So I love that. And then my one of my, one of my locals is, um, ether and you know, they're all Australian pale is one of my go tos. So, um, shout out to either brewing. My answer sitting, you know, probably equidistant from the lost watering hole to hole gates is, um and I have enjoyed some of their 25 year anniversary sparkling hole gates, which is which is pretty good. I was quite happy with that. And to be super honest with you, I've got a few styles that I love, and I go into one or two different bottle shops who have got huge craft sections, in fact, growing, no and they're independent retailers.
01:02:30
Speaker
growing their sections, not reducing their sections, which is a really great thing, and pick up a whole bunch of different stuff from our members. I refuse to drink anything that's not, so I'm often going, and they are members just in case, because they're 100 and I can't always remember them all, and have a mixed, a little mixed fridge for summer, which, and and I haven't been drinking, so I'm really going to be looking forward to some beers, tasty in these.
01:03:01
Speaker
Guys, I just steal a tiny second of thunder. Our last little request is if you are listening and you are an independent brewery and not yet a member of the IBA, you've heard all the things that we're doing for you. You've heard all the things that we're doing next year. Membership at IBA.org.au. Get in touch. um I'm just going to I wouldn't be paid my salary if I didn't make my plug. It's our plug. um There is no other industry organization that is fighting for your survival like we are. um Be part of the team, get access to the seal, get amongst it. and so since That would be your hope for 2025 is loads more members joining up to the IBA and hopefully by the end of the year, 2.7 employees. A big, what a cash, James, to be very frank. I can breathe a little easier.
01:03:53
Speaker
yeah We wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't mind being able to employ marketing comms resource again, because you know what you're seeing on socials and and ah that's Sabrina and I. And although, you know, we're not too bad, it certainly could be done a little better. So that's my dream for my Christmas wish. Oh, best of luck. Hopefully Santa's good to you.
01:04:20
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us.
01:04:26
Speaker
The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials.
01:04:39
Speaker
We wouldn't be able to produce the podcast or the website, events or festivals we run without the support of the beer industry. Whether that's suppliers, bars, breweries or bottle shops. If you'd like to support the show or partner with The Crafty Pine in other ways, please reach out to Craig via the details in the show notes. And if you're a beer lover who'd like to support what we do, you can join our exclusive club for beer lovers, at The Crafty Cabal. Visit craftycabal.com for more. And until next time, drink good beer.