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Year In Beer 2024: Western Australia
375 Plays8 days ago
For the third instalment – and second podcast episode – of our Year In Beer 2024 series, we head west to catch up with two of the people behind one of the state's brightest new breweries and the brothers who run a business that's been watching the state's craft beer scene grow for two decades.
The first of those are Terri and Trav Moore, part of the team behind Phat Brew Club, which has risen in next to no time from homebrew competition winners to pro brewers without a home to operators of one of Perth's largest and liveliest brewpubs. They've enjoyed yet another banging year in 2024 and are set to open a second venue in 2025.
The brothers are Jose and Nelio Pestana, founders of one of WA's finest indie retailers of top-notch booze, Copper & Oak. They opened their first store more than 20 years ago, saw the way the market was heading early, now operate a second store and have a third on the way.
As well as selling one of the widest selections of beer in WA, they're arch-collaborators who've released a series of consistently excellent beers with some of the state's finest. Full disclosure: Crafty Pint contributor Guy Southern is part of the Copper & Oak team these days and picked up one of the outfits' three major awards in the past two years.
Prior to catching up with our guests, Will and James pick the brains of both Guy and our writer in the South West, Jono Outred.
Across the three segments, we discover what's been going down in WA over the past 12 months – the noteworthy trends, the hottest breweries, the most delicious beers, and more – as well as looking ahead to 2025.
NB There was an internet connection issue that kicked in towards the end of the chat with Terri and Trav that affected their video; the audio is fine throughout, however.
Start of each segment:
The Crafty Pint's 2024 Year In Beer series is proudly presented by Mogwai Labs, leaders in liquid yeast solutions. For the perfect pitch every time, visit mogwailabs.com.au.
Relevant links:
- The Crafty Pint's Year In Beer 2024: The National Picture
- Phat Brew Club
- Copper & Oak
To find out more about supporting the show or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact [email protected].
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Transcript
Introduction by James Smith
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Crafty Pints Year in Beer 2024 series. My name's James Smith, founder of the Crafty Pint. We're well into that time of year where everyone's rushing around trying to type a million loose ends at the minute, so you just got me for this week's intro. However, it is a very brief intro as we're keen to jump straight into the rest of the show.
Interviews and Site Visits Overview
00:00:23
Speaker
First up after the break, we'll have Will and I chatting to two of our WA contributors, John O'Outred, who lives and works in the southwest of the state, and Guy Southern, who's been covering the WA beer scene for us for a number of years now.
00:00:35
Speaker
After that we're off to Fat Brew Club to join two of the founders Trav and Terry Moore. As regular readers of the site will know Fat Brew Club have enjoyed an amazing start to life in the WA beer scene. They've had a great 2024 and they've got some really exciting plans for the year ahead as well and it's just a really lovely upbeat chat with those two.
00:00:52
Speaker
And then finally we head to Copper and Oak to join the brothers behind and that retail the retailers who've been selling craft beer and other great booze to the people of wwe WA for the last 20 years. They've picked up some major awards in the last year or two and they're joined by Guy Southern who's part of their team as well as part of the Crafty Pint team.
Technical Note on Video Quality
00:01:09
Speaker
One word of warning in advance, there are a couple of moments during a couple of the interviews where the video quality gets a little bit glitchy. However, audio is absolutely fine and we've done our best to get around it. And so you're not going to lose anything, even if you are watching it on on YouTube. So without further ado, we'll head into the first chats with John Owen Guy um and see you there. Cheers.
Year in Beer 2024 WA Edition
00:01:36
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the WA edition of our Year in Beer 2024 roundup. ah In keeping with, I guess, the slightly convoluted nature of 2024 in beer, Will and I are recording this from Adelaide just to really confuse matters. How are you going, Will? Great. i'm Great. And right now we're joined by Guy Southern and Jono Outrend. Hello from WA, thank you. having me
Impact of Venue Acquisitions on Breweries
00:01:59
Speaker
Not at all. And how's, how's 2024 in beer been for you guys?
00:02:04
Speaker
ah Look, it's been another dynamic year in w WA. as As you would both know, WA tends to run kind of its own thing over here and is a little bit um and ah separated from trends and doing your own thing.
00:02:18
Speaker
I think one of the major things that's come up that might not have been touched on or people might not be aware of is you know two big venue chains buying up a lot of a lot of venues around Perth. So if you look at ALH and ABC venue codes, they now own close to 60 or just over 60 venues in Western Australia, which probably doesn't sound like a lot, but with a smaller population, that's less access for smaller breweries to get beers on.
00:02:46
Speaker
um at local pubs and that's all the way from here up in the Perth Hills, further south to southwest, up north. um it's it's been They've been nibbling away at this space and I started to look at this mid-year and went, you know, between the two of them, that's ah that's a lot of venues that a brewery can't get beer into.
00:03:04
Speaker
So yeah, is this so something that I think we've been seeing on the East Coast for a number of years now, um you know, pretty rapidly and it doesn't seem to be stopping. So it sounds like it's newer to WA this year than and a notable. Yeah, definitely. Definitely newer to WA. And I think, yeah, I think the the the fallout from this will only, it's only going to be amplified in 2025.
Importance of Brewery-Owned Venues
00:03:29
Speaker
I think this then links back to venues. We've got, you know,
00:03:33
Speaker
um if you don't If you're a a moderate-sized brewery and you don't have a venue yet, that's going to bre ah create problems for you getting to market, depending on what your your model is. but um you know it's Just at Found last night, they've obviously got a venue further south in Biford, about an hour away, but you know part of their strategy is bringing people into their venue and making sure that people have a great experience. But not everyone has the means to do that.
00:04:00
Speaker
What about down in the southwest, John? Are there any sort of notable trends this year?
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, look, I would say what Guy's just covered there has been applicable to us as well. um Southwest is its own little sort of ecosystem of beer, which is it's iss quite cool. um So there's definitely been challenges breweries have been working hard to overcome. um But we are seeing a little bit less pressure from interstate and Perth based breweries in the Southwest, which is giving the local breweries a little bit more room to breathe.
Market Dynamics in the Southwest
00:04:32
Speaker
um So I suppose for the punter, not necessarily the best thing to see, a ah reduced ranging of Australian craft beer at venues and in bottle shops, ah but for local breweries, um a bit more power to to get more taps, to get a little bit more ranging, to to rethink those relationships, which has really, um I think, put a lot of the breweries in the South West in a strong position.
00:04:54
Speaker
I know that's why the Southwest is having a strong year. I mean, obviously we're based in Melbourne most of the time. Rocky Ridge has obviously opened over there, but Bootleg has just come back. You know, it does seem like the number of breweries in the Southwest are kicking goals.
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And I think there is a lot of, um you know, there's there's an alliance with Southwest um drinkers and those breweries. ah But it is really cool to see a lot of those breweries, you know, Rocky Ridge, Cheeky Monkey, Beer Farm, pushing pretty hard into the Perth market with new distribution, um arms and new venues. um So that's really exciting.
00:05:33
Speaker
And yeah, there's just just a lot of really great breweries out here who, in in my opinion, have always had to be good. um You know, the tourist sort of economy is challenging. um You know, you've got to keep yourself pretty busy for sort of four months of the year when there's no one around. And I think that's just paying dividends now that we've sort of hit this sort of challenging era of craft beer.
Trends in Beer Styles
00:05:54
Speaker
I think off the back of that also is um if there's another theme that weaves into this is the general moderation in the types of limited releases in terms of styles and in terms of ABVs. Two years ago, we would have seen a heap of double IPAs and yeah big hazies and that kind of thing. There's still around, but you know I'm looking at people that have A limited release is a hazy pale, which is almost kind of unheard of. you know like that's You would consider that to be a core-range beer, or a fairly approachable um session sour as a limited release. um and that That's been pretty prevalent across all breweries in WA, I'd say. Just this moderating effect.
00:06:35
Speaker
um Yeah, and that's probably also aligned to a lot of brands. And Jono, you might want to talk about this. People that are doing brand refreshes on call range and just kind of smartening up their offering and making it themselves relevant with what they've already got.
00:06:50
Speaker
And do you think that is tied in potentially to the sort of wider economic situation? I know WA is a little little bit of immune to it, but I think it has sort of crept in a little bit. Do you think it's tied to that or just maybe a changing of taste or a mo maturing of the market and people wanting, chasing less, you know, huge ABV biz?
00:07:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a good um sign of the the market maturing is we're not seeing so many mid-strength beers, I don't think, but more broadly speaking, beers are coming down in ABV. um And I think that ties in with that um ranging sort of refresh from a lot of breweries.
00:07:27
Speaker
both across the sort of limited releases, but also core. I mean, just here in the Southwest alone, we've seen ah Rocky Ridge, Eagle Bay, Beer Farm, and Cheeky Monkey put effort into their core range um and and completely changed things up, new products, new branding. And that's really exciting to see, but there is definitely, you're looking at those beers and none of them are sort of pushing above 5%, which is interesting.
00:07:53
Speaker
And any other highlights from the year, maybe starting with you going
Lager's Rising Popularity
00:07:56
Speaker
in the city? I would say, just just to quickly pick up on that, another another trend there is this West Coast Pills, call it what you will. WAs always love tonight ah IPL, but the amount of West Coast Pills, Pillsners, 100 Day Pillsners, Cowley, Holds, I was at Found last night, they're doing Svesa, West Coasts.
00:08:17
Speaker
this lagerification, a hobby lager space has absolutely blown up in Western Australia and in the past 12 months and it seems no no sign of stopping. What about in terms of new breweries either in the city or you know north north of Perth or regionally? and Anyone else sort of new or or even established that's really you know been kicking goals in 2024? Yeah I think um if I think about smaller breweries freestyle over in Bassandine you're really small um family-owned business, you know, we're talking, you know, a team of like four or five. They opened their cellar door for four hours on a Saturday. They have come on significantly in terms of quality and the the range of releases. Their hazy's in particular have found a lot of fans. um So I definitely give them a hat tip at the moment. You know, we saw Fox Rider open at Burrswood, Boundary Island and Finlay's picked up a bunch of like significant awards.
00:09:11
Speaker
um and Obviously found opening and I'd say also and John I probably speak to it a bit more but my room at the the growth of Margaret River vehicle They've just just exploded in the last four months, so I don't know if that's a good segue for you John. Oh Yeah, yeah, I do have Margaret River vehicle on my list yeah that the guys have been doing really well and you know I think they've really bought their standard of beer, their marketing, their strategy up with a lot of the other bigger players in the Southwest, which is really exciting to see. um Outside of that, you know I think the Southwest, we haven't seen a big ah push for new venues and breweries out here so much, but there has been a couple of standouts. Servo Tap House, I think is just offering an Australian high standard of
00:10:04
Speaker
craft beer venue in a tiny little town, probably got a couple of thousand people in it. um It's my dream to one day go there. It's it's genuinely, i I wake up in the night thinking about traveling there. <unk>d I'd love to have Servo Tap House in Melbourne, to be honest. If, you know, if everyone wants to up sticks and move to this city, which I'm assuming as he's launched the Enquirer Mupp, he doesn't want to be in the city, but yeah, it's pretty epic.
00:10:28
Speaker
It could happen because he I'm not sure if he's from Melbourne, but he's definitely worked in and around Melbourne. But yeah, you know, seeing, you know, locally produced beers from small breweries like Kawaramuk Brewing Co. um alongside, um you know, these really big, amazing yeah European breweries and American breweries is pretty cool. And then another one, you know, is Pour House. They're based in Dunsborough, um new owners a couple of years ago, and have just just been building that craft offering.
00:10:58
Speaker
big focus on local beer, um which you know really leans into the sort of trend around the place. And then the other thing I would just say is, you know, my my day job is sales and beer sales. And, you you know, there's there's a lot of dialogue building at the moment and about CUB and Lion Nathan and their contracts and their value to a venue. So while we're struggling to have those conversations with ALH and AVC,
00:11:24
Speaker
A lot of smaller places are starting to question why they would have swan draft over, say, a local lager. That's really exciting. That's really interesting dialogue. um Definitely something I'm paying attention to both in my day job and as ah as a craft beer fan, you know, I think we'll start to see, yeah, a few more taps in smaller venues and smaller bars and cafes and restaurants, which is is kind of cool.
00:11:49
Speaker
I think um from a ah Perth point of view, that's intriguing in the southwest, but the absolute dominance of Swanee Dee and Guinness in the city just links back to that and no one's questioning it. It's almost a there's a ah rejection ah in some parts of yeah craftier offerings and going for simpler stuff because it's available. and James, I know you and I have shared a few Swanee Dee's when you've been over west.
00:12:13
Speaker
I was about to say you made a point of taking me to the, is it the Navy club in, in three hours to have one with the lookout over the building. So yeah, maybe you're part of the problem guy. Yeah, possibly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, ah you talked about stand up.
00:12:28
Speaker
yeah You talked about standout moments also, James. um Probably the the one of the biggest this year is beer farm and nail buying out feral. Like that's absolutely huge. And it was one of the the biggest stories on Crafty ever. So I think what's going to happen there will will unfold over a longer period of time in 2025 as they get a handle on what does feral look like, what does beer farm look like, how does nail fit into all of that space. But it's pretty exciting. And like to to have stalwart owning you know feral is just wild, like just an amazing concept and an amazing craft beer journey for him.
00:13:05
Speaker
And I guess we'll be talking about John a little bit more next year when he ticks over 25 years of nail or so, but we'll we'll leave
Community and Venue Focus for 2025
00:13:11
Speaker
that one. Well, and maybe that's the perfect segue into, you know, what are you hoping to see or what what do you expect to see from WA Beer in 2025?
00:13:21
Speaker
i like to see um I'd like to actually see an audience getting more involved and and and breweries getting more involved and bringing an audience in. like There's not a passive, we open the doors and you know people wander in now. You've got to be engaging. you've got to you've got to build I keep talking about building a tribe.
00:13:39
Speaker
And with that, it is maybe it's this Cali, cold, Sephasa thing, and that's the hook to get people in the door over a Swanee Dee or a Guinness. ah That's going to be super important for WAB going forward. And then then you can have a Bali one. And what about in the Southwest, John? I know we were we were talking the other day about, you know, ah a bit further south, with Wilson moving into a new place in Albany. So there's, you know, there's there's movement you know down there as well.
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think um interesting what Guy has said, you know, I think similar sentiments out here, it's that owning your postcode kind of mentality. We've all seen in craft beer over the last 12 months that your best route to market is straight from the brewery. The closer you can sell the beer to where it's made, the more money you'll make.
00:14:26
Speaker
And I think a lot of breweries are going to grow on that concept. They're going to realize that they need to up their tap house game, their venue game. But also, I think with that, um I think we're going to see a lot more activation around beer. We're going to see more beer-centric events and dinners, festivals, street parties, car park parties, all that kind of stuff. I think with the demise of the big festival, you know not just in beer, but across the world in in music and art and everything else,
00:14:56
Speaker
the smaller, um you know, brand in hand style activations are going to grow. um And that's really exciting. And that's that's how you get more people on board with what you're doing and with craft. um And yeah, I think we'll see more of that. I hope to see more of that. Before we wrap up, um what about any standout beers from across the year? Anything that you really loved?
00:15:20
Speaker
Uh, like myself personally, um, look, I am enjoying the, the West coast pills kind of styles, um, eagle ways, 90 day pills is always a ah welcome arrival on the, on the brewing calendar. Um, cool range, uh, motor vehicles, um, river dogs landed really well, lucky bays, mountaineer, whiskey barrel aged, barley wine was absolutely, absolutely sublime. Likewise campuses from Queen. And Jono, what about you?
00:15:46
Speaker
ah Yeah, not going to lie that there's been so many and and living in the southwest, I always make sure I shoot up to Perth and and grab lots of goodies out there. um But from the southwest specifically, things that I've written up over the last 12 months, ah Margaret River Bierko, Beyond the Pines and their Chill, both really impressed. ah Early in the year, beer farm native series, ah Goza was was stunning.
00:16:09
Speaker
There's been so many wins from Rocky Ridge, but they're never heard of it, Oat Cream IPA. I don't care what anyone says, but Oat Cream IPAs are delicious and Rocky Ridge do them really well. um And then, and Boston had heaps of really great beers throughout the year. Their Waddle Seed, Red Ride, Pale Owl was awesome. And their Little Red Nolo, so Non-Outk was, yeah, I think that's such a fantastic effort in the Non-Outk space and definitely a go-to for me throughout the year.
00:16:37
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, Jono and Guy, thanks so much for joining us. like you Thank you. Cheers. See ya. Mogwai Labs is proud to present our Year in Beer series. Mogwai has one of the most diverse yeast collections available for brewers and other beverage makers in Australia, including classic strains, mixed fermentation and forage cultures. Visit mogwylabs.com.au and get in touch today.
00:17:04
Speaker
Trav and Terry, thanks for joining us. How you going, guys? We're good. Probably not as well as you guys, though. It's been a pretty phenomenal year for Fat Brew Club on the back of, I guess, many phenomenal years since you decided to head down this road. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the last 12 months?
Fat Brew Club's Expansion and Fundraising
00:17:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's been pretty insane, mate, to be honest, and a bit of a roller coaster. It's obviously year two for us since we opened here at West Perth. And the journey that we've been on in
00:17:35
Speaker
in getting our beers out more further in WA, refining our beers, getting our ah food offering right here has been a really cool one and one that's been really enjoyable. um yeah We keep talking about this fact that we're trying to create this culture of good times and and have a lot of fun. And and that's just about us having a lot of fun with our beers and food and trying to trying to make sure that everyone comes here has a a really good time.
00:18:02
Speaker
I suppose what we've started to to look at at the start of this year was how can we get our beers into more people's hands and and create an experience like what we've got here in West Perth for for more people.
00:18:16
Speaker
WA is pretty spread out. um We're pretty notorious for the fact that we're very much ah spread out over about 150kms. So sometimes it's a bit hard for for people to get to your venue if they live quite far north or quite far south. So um we really wanted to look at, you know, can we set up ah another site and and bring all the fun that we do here to that. um And so we went on a bit of a a journey to try and find a a location and ended up landing on a a really super cool spot, which is in Hillary's Marina in Perth. It's a pretty iconic tourist location ah located above the water. um Super cool if you're into your boats and what have you. It's just a ah lovely spot.
00:19:02
Speaker
So um we started that process just recently and getting the design done for that. And obviously, as part of that whole process, excitingly, we we went out and did a ah crowd equity raise as well and managed to raise a million dollars, which I think we were super humbled by, particularly in the current time. Times are tough. I think we all know that.
00:19:26
Speaker
So for us to be able to go out and and raise a million dollars and and be the first private company brewery in WA to be able to do that was something pretty special. Now yeah yeah you talk about fun and and creating a culture of good times, but Terry, um the on the inside of the business doing this and growing so fast, is it still fun or are you just chasing your your tail the whole time?
00:19:49
Speaker
Oh, look, for me personally, I think 2023 was not fun for me. And I think for a lot of us, we didn't have time to just have a breather. But this year, 2024 has been just brilliant. Like surviving for small business to survive for first year alone is like a celebration moment. Our first birthday party was just like a big, I don't know for you, but for me, it was like, ah ah we made it.
00:20:16
Speaker
but and like god we're still yeah And I mean, for me, I'm not involved in the day to day run into this. I've got a day job and got the two year old as well. I'm I.
00:20:28
Speaker
I think I'm around more for events and merchants, a bit of social media and stuff. So that's been my role and after we finished up the home brewing part. So I guess our first year I was coming in quite a lot.
00:20:48
Speaker
and to do stuff. And now I'm able to come in and relax and enjoy the place. And I think a lot of us feel that as well, like we've got a great crew around us. There's just like the people that are working here the day to day and grinders, the brew team, kitchen staff, ah front of house, just amazing. um Brian, who's taken over the marketing and the socials, it's been brilliant and I've had to do this so I actually don't do much anymore. So this year has been really fun enjoyable um and and then not just here, um the festivals as well like Froftown and 3-0 Beer Fest.
00:21:30
Speaker
well yeah I was over for Froth Town and had an absolute blast and it did feel at the time being from Melbourne that there is this um energy in the WA beer scene that maybe isn't everywhere else at the moment. like Does that sort of continue on outside of those major festivals? Do you still feel that? Yeah absolutely. I mean it's quite funny um i feel I still feel that we're relatively new in the industry, but then new people come along. um Oh, it's just brilliant. like the We've got a bit of a banter going on with the guys down at campus at the moment. and Margaret River-Bruco, they're like our family, bike tank guys. It's brilliant. It's a really close-knit industry. And ah feel and that festival is super cool.
00:22:19
Speaker
yeahe Croftown is just a, we say it is like just our chance just to go nuts and just express ourselves, I suppose. So that's why we did the whole like Willy Wonka theme yeah um with all of these different stupid beers like Blueberry Pie. and um What else did we have? Scrum, Dibbly, Uncher, Stout and all sorts of different stuff like that. So um I think that festival is really cool because it's not just about the beer. There's a lot of other cool fun activities happening as well. And that was why we bring a party. And it brings a lot of party a lot of and demographic in that may not necessarily be into craft beer normally and sort of showcases that.
00:23:01
Speaker
Just cool. When Will came back, he said there was just a massive queue and a massive like like gathering around your stand the entire time, every every session from start to finish. But our beers definitely like lend itself to that. You know, we can do the big, big hazy boppers. We love to experiment with new and fun and exciting stuff. and And then we do our stupid beers, like bubblegum sours and all of that, which, you know, festivals like that, people just want to try something different. And like, I think those beers just allow people to go a bit silly and, and go, I want to try that bubblegum flavoured sour, whatever it might be. i know I know Will had his fair share when he was over.
00:23:40
Speaker
Absolutely, yeah. I was blown away. But yeah, I'm really stuck with that crowd. When I could get a beer at the Fat Sound, it almost gets challenging at certain points. The Fats and Convers are a bit like... Are the Fats and Convers going to be allowed to come back or is it... I think next time we go together.
00:24:01
Speaker
And yeah I mean, you touched on the festivals and some of your mates in the industry as well. Who else is sort of exciting you or what else are you saying, I guess, in the industry that it's really giving you an update and stuff? I think for me and like, and this is if they were our mates or not, this is what I'd be saying. But I think Parker River Beer Co. are definitely the ones that had a standout 24 for me. They went from a brewery this similar size to us doing a couple of hundred thousand litres a year.
00:24:30
Speaker
um to a brewery that can do over a million, had the whole rebrand, um took out trophies at every single major tournament or awards this year, Indies, Abers and and Perth were all shows. So the fear is that they're punching out as super quality and they're doing some, they're not just doing you know the big production core range stuff, they're doing their experimentals as well. and I think leaning into that whole Margaret River, West Australia um sort of side of things too is really cool. Yeah. Like for me, I would say them as well. They're hands down probably my favorite brewery apart from us in WA. Their core range is phenomenal. And also the, I mean, the IPAs, the experimental IPAs have been my favorites this year. The King Rose IPAs as well, actually.
00:25:18
Speaker
I've been, yeah, I've been loving it. There's a theme there, you might copy that. I've gone from, ah, like, you know, I'm a stout probably, stout's probably my roots. I've got a fridge full of stouts. Actually, I've got a fridge full of stouts and then Reece Lopez's evil megacore. Oh my gosh, I've got a fridge fruit full of them at the moment, I can't get through them. They're delicious, the ones that I've opened are delicious, so I'm actually quite excited about getting into a few more ah five The problem is they're about eight or nine percent. so and a big With a name like Evil Megacore you're not expecting sort of you know mid-trends or light beers are you? No, they're really good beers. Reece is a great brewer so it'll be interesting to see um if he does tone it down a bit um or if he keeps going on the high ABV's but I mean everything, his his beers have always been very well received in the WA community. so
00:26:13
Speaker
yeah And just wanting to go back to with the the venue. So people haven't been to Fat Prairie Club in the City West. You've got a 400 capacity venue, which is huge to any venue. And I know when you first took it on, I think, you know, Guy and I were chatting. It's like he goes, it's in a really good location. There's buzz around the brand, but Jesus, like that's a big big thing to chew off. And now you're obviously taking on the second venue as well. And the first venue obviously is killing it. Is there like secret recipe you've got that you think is working you know to make that a venue that size really kick off?
Keys to Fat Brew Club's Success
00:26:46
Speaker
good I think a lot of like a lot of what we do is just be be real and try and just be ourselves and everything that we do here is
00:26:55
Speaker
is pretty much linked back to having a, like I said before, having a good time. um And that's the food, the venue and the beers. And we don't take ourselves very seriously. And I think that really helps because people can sort of relate to being a bit stupid and being a bit fun and all of our bright colours and um everything that we've done with the brand. And and people have just really latched on and and jumped on board board with that. And I think the whole whole club culture that we've created, which really has come about from the fact that we were all part of the same football club at the start and then created this brew club. um People have really wanted to be a part of something. And I think that's a massive part as to why our crowd raise went so well as well. um People wanted to jump on board and be a part of this, what seems to be ah a really cool and fun time and a good crew to be around here and enjoy good food and good beer.
00:27:51
Speaker
yeah It was really interesting I know when I was in there a few months ago I bumped into an old mate from Melbourne I'd not seen in in years and he'd come in on a i think it's a Saturday lunchtime from 3.0 with a few other his mates who were all dads and they brought the kids with them to give the mums a few hours free on a Saturday but they felt that you know the kids were all happy as Larry as well so it was like but it was a win for everyone the mums got some downtime the dads all got to come to the brewery and the kids all got to play outside which seemed like a bit of a win or round. Yeah, yeah, I think we've got a bit for everyone here. So we do have the awesome alfresco area out the back. I mean, we, there was a car park there originally. And when we moved in to start build and travel his dad's light landscaped it to make it quite a nice and
00:28:43
Speaker
family-friendly area. So we get quite a lot of people when they're booking, um, please can we be near the sand pit, please can we be in the Africa area. So yeah, that's quite good for them. We've got, um, the arcade games and pool table, which, um, yeah. Oh, we've got a new little climbing frame in the playground, which is um quite nice. Um, but the, yeah, it's quite funny to see the kids on the retro computer games as well that we've got in there.
00:29:07
Speaker
and But there's also little quiet spots as well. and I've noticed when I've come in on a weekday, there's a older guy and with his little dog sitting on the stool there. And he's got his laptop open working from home. So you always find a little spot and you get people just sat on their little quiet corners just away from everybody else. I think because it's so central, so easy to get to. yeah That's a big, big cost for us. And I mean, this place was falling down around our There are years when we first got it. It's sat dormant for 13 years, which I think is pretty nuts, the fact that it's, as you two both know, it one station from the city. This should be a real hive of activity here. And that's really what we've been trying to create since we got here, is give people a reason to come to Sydney West and create a a precinct that's got all a bit of life and and fun about it.
00:30:03
Speaker
Right. Yeah. My favourite part is the Buck Hunter. And doesn like before we get finished, um what about next year? Obviously you've got the other venue on the way, but is there anything else that you're really excited about? I think we're we're really excited about where we can take our beers.
00:30:21
Speaker
um we We made some real leaps and bounds this year, I think, in in the quality and consistency, really getting that brew kit doled in. um I'm super excited for us to start to to try to you know, build some of our own styles with some tweaks and and changes to some existing styles that are around and um also getting into some more new and fun ingredients. But really getting our beers super dialed in and having some more fun. I think we did about 35 new beers this year, which for a brewery of our size, you know, that's going about three or four a month. So look out for us to be doing something similar similar next year. That's great.
00:31:04
Speaker
ah Okay, Trev and Terry, thank you so much for joining us. You're very welcome. Good to see you.
00:31:15
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:32:03
Speaker
Hi, guys. Welcome to the Crafty Pine Podcast. How are you going? Excellent. Hey, James. Good to meet you, man. Hey, James. um I guess before we get on to why we're chatting to you guys about sort of Copper & Oak 2024, can you give us a little bit of a background as to what Copper & Oak is, you know, your background in retail and I guess your position within the WA market?
Copper & Oak's Brand Transformation
00:32:24
Speaker
You go, Joe. I would obviously be the older one to go first. ah Short story, started retail liquor in South Africa when I was 20, so I opened up my first business. There for 10 years, moved to Perth in 2003. Just generic bottle shop, went through a couple of brands. um Yeah, wasn't really identified in the market. and um
00:32:48
Speaker
pay the schooling bucks for nearly to go to uni and get a marketing. well this is And then I went, right, got to put that to work. And yeah, we pretty much went to brain cells, which was a a branding agency, which was kind of indirectly connected to little, little creatures back in the day. And we kind of liked that vibe and we thought, well, make sense to go with them. And yeah. And, um,
00:33:13
Speaker
Spoke to them and we came up with a copper and oak and Michael said that the rest is history. But um yeah. the the shorter When did you make the turn into craft beer? I mean, not just craft beer, but, you know, obviously high end everything, you know, wine in spirits. when When did that happen? So yeah. So 2003 board, Chewett Hill Liquor.
00:33:34
Speaker
um And then we had exponential growth in four, five, six, seven ish to eight. And then the big green machine came to town, um truly known as Uncle Dan's. And they pretty much just it was all about price. And they pretty much went for everything and everyone. um And it was, you know, independent wine producers, it was spirits that were from a smaller production or were less, yeah you know, that they didn't have the the attention that the majors were interested in because they're too small. And ultimately the big one that actually we saw that was working was beer. Then everyone remembers the word of boutique.
00:34:16
Speaker
ah You know, boutique beer was the one. And I went, well, I'm going for this boutique beer because I want to be boutique in words like niche. And that wasn't even my thought process. I was just, I wanted something that was different, but also good. In comes little creatures and we were ordering little creatures from little creatures delivered literally in a van.
00:34:38
Speaker
the back of the U by the half pallets and pallets, and we were just flying through it. And then, you know, just bringing in everyone else now, you know, Bootleg Brewery from Margaret River was a big player for us, Mash Brewery, back in the day, and it was pretty much whatever was made well.
00:34:55
Speaker
sold well tasted it just just worked and we were like who else is there and we just literally open up the door for every there was a lot of trial and error that was for sure um but was pretty much anything that was and it It wasn't even the independent thing that that played a card for us. It was just anything that was good while made and I could sell. But I guess, you know, part of the reason we brought you on for a chat today is because you've had a really incredible 2024 and, you know, I think, you know, 2023 was was no not none too shabby as well. So, I mean, you guys tell us a bit bit about the success you've had as just as a store, as a brand and over the last year or so. Yeah.
00:35:35
Speaker
Like going on sort of what Josie said, and last year was 20 years that we were in the industry in in Australia. So that was the Truett Hill store. And Guilford's first birthday, Guilford took out a couple of great awards as well. So that sort of set us up quite nicely. Do you want to tell the people what the awards were? nearly i feel like Well, look, 2024 for us was probably, it was a great year um for Copper Lake in general. So we took out this one chamber, best retail experience, which which is awesome because it's much more sort of localised,
00:36:10
Speaker
um awards, not to suppose, but based from local businesses. um So that was 23, 24. Best retail experience. This went better in rehearsal.
00:36:25
Speaker
as show i'm paying attention yeah so That was great. Because it was, you know, your local sort of City of Swine, Guildford, locals that that sort of go get around those awards. And then We managed to pick up quite a big one, which was the Liquor Stores Association of WA. They hur hold the um industry awards every year and we managed to snag Metropolitan of the store of the year and um overall WA Liquor Store. yes ah Pretty proud. and didn't Didn't this guy that you you've taken away from me, didn't he pick up something along the along the way as well?
00:36:56
Speaker
Well, that goes back to 2023. It was the very employee award at the LSA, which is the liquor stores associations award. Guy Southern was nominated and that award.
Success Factors for Copper & Oak
00:37:12
Speaker
the inaugural award actually was the very first one. with shame a but bit bit A bit of a dream to you. i I felt less bad about the fact that I have less of his time now and I'm like okay he's pretty good at what he does. He's he' landed it landed in a good spot i've it and in terms of like the success you've had you know is there a secret to your success? why Why do you think it is that you've um you know at the same time that as you're expanding you've actually picked up you know these major awards you know back to back year on year?
00:37:39
Speaker
um ah i mean I don't think there's necessarily a secret. I just think we we know what we want to do and we enjoy what we do. um you i There's a lot of time and effort that gets involved even from just our staff in general, they come in and the most important thing is putting a smile on a customer's face. In the 20 year video, the one thing that stuck in my head is what Josie said is that you just got to break customers out of their routine. And a lot of times that's what it is, you know, the customer will walk in and it's like, good day, how are you? And it's like, yeah, I'm good. And they go do their thing. We we don't do that. It's, you know, you almost snap the amount of what they, their normal routine and that's sort of,
00:38:18
Speaker
drives them to be a bit more happy when they walk in and it drives us. And with that, it's it's just a spiral effect. You're happy doing what you're doing. everything else just falls in line. There's a lot of stress, don't get me wrong, and there's a lot of conversations that we have, but you need to have those conversations in order to grow. And that's sort of, I think way you know we've got a good team at the moment. And then talking to the wider community in WA, you'll have seen you know hundreds, if not thousands of different skews of beer come through from the local community this year. You'll have been aware of you know who's on the up, you know who's new, who's maybe on the on the on the down and in WA. Any sort of notable trends you've noticed in terms of
00:38:57
Speaker
drinking habits or what brewers are releasing or you know what and what what consumers are looking for in 2024?
Shift Towards Sessionable Beers
00:39:04
Speaker
I think sessionability has always been talked about. um But I think more so now, I've noticed a lot of my regulars and my big you know independent, let's let's call it that, craft beer supporters,
00:39:18
Speaker
are buying a lot more of those midweek beers or, you know, if they're having those dry days Monday, Tuesday, there'll always be these like two, two and a half, 3% of beers that say they they just want to have a slightly healthier kind of habit about it. You know, you can't have two kids running a mark and still got some work to catch up on and then have a conversation with your partner. And you've just had, you know, three, 7%, you know, RPAs and then expect it to be anything decent. But you know what, you want to have something that you can have when you get home, have a dinner. So sessionability, 100%. That's, we've noticed our our doors on
00:40:01
Speaker
And we noticed it straight away because we're having to buy more. um So yeah, our kind of our session doors are getting a little bit bigger in terms of offering because people are asking and and on top of that, those beers are getting better. You know, Margaret driven beer code with their, their mermaid is absolutely fantastic. You know, um blasters mid-strength at another one that's done well. I mean, one of your store boards nails MVP really well, but like,
00:40:28
Speaker
If I see the basket buying, there's definitely a lot of yeah that going through. so and what and What about and what are breweries? are Are there new breweries or established breweries that are sort of causing the buzz this year around ah for you know for you guys, with your drinkers? Well, we sponsor two trophies at the Royal Beer Awards and our trophy winner for Package Pale was actually Boundary Island ah in Mandra.
00:40:55
Speaker
and um heard of them, but never realized that they actually had package until that day. ah So, you know, pass the trophy onto them. and But meeting Ben and speaking to them, and I was like, oh, where are you guys? And they gave me the story. I convinced my family the next day on Saturday night to go for dinner, going, oh, we're just going to go down the road in my head thinking it was a 40-minute drive. Ended up being an hour and 10.
00:41:22
Speaker
go to by andre aren for dinner because I wanted to see what the venue was like. Because winning winning a trophy is great, but you know, sometimes you can put in the best beer that you made for a competition, if if you get what I'm getting at. and um I went, I got down there and I just went, yeah, these guys, I've got the game on. And and for me, that's probably the one for this year that really stood out was the Banjo Island Brewery, but that XBA, there's that payload was absolutely phenomenal. it's It's definitely a venue that you want to go and you want to book, first of all.
00:41:58
Speaker
But it's just picturesque. It's in the canals. um Yeah, they've I think they've really onto a really good recipe there. They cover all your beer styles. So they've got your lager. You've got a midi that works really well with, you know, more your older market. But they facilitating for the for everyone in the craft scene. So pa yeah they got their sours. They're in that um sort of lemon lime spritz market as well. So what what about you, Nellie? Like any highlights for you beer wise?
00:42:27
Speaker
I think what's interesting is obviously Josey and Gar spend a lot of time at the Teward Hill store and it's definitely a different client base to what Guildford has. It's slightly changing to towards what the Teward Hill store is, but the change towards smaller craft here has been pretty good. um It's still very much a macro store in terms of you know, a lot of tradies come in and they enjoy their the staples. um But there's been up bit a bit of dabbling, which has been great. And, you know, we actually spoke about it earlier and Lager has seen a little bit of a resurgence as such. um And that's probably what's picked up here and as well as a session ability like my brother says it's
00:43:07
Speaker
people are wanting to take a four pack, a six pack, eight pack to venues or to the beach or wherever. And that's definitely um come, come back round again. So yeah although my brother loves a 7% West Coast RPA any day of the week, he's often picking up a 3.5 and that's, he's drinking and he gets home. And then, you know, that just shows that if he's doing it, how that's actually filtering through into, into our customers. It's exactly the time. Rest assured, I haven't changed names.
00:43:38
Speaker
Wildfather's table beer every day of the week. yeah this bar has been loving It's it's terrificly yeah definitely into that role. Yeah, the the other one that we've done, while which is probably one of our top collaborators is King Road.
Future Plans for Copper & Oak
00:43:55
Speaker
And again, so I think there the secret sauce is the venue really helps sort of transcend that brand of this. Because when you get there, your beer's got to be amazing, but your food's kind of going to match it as well, which it definitely does. um We did our first collaboration then last year about bringing in the old school IPA, which is my nostalgic hit on when Sierra Nevada torpedo landed here and you got that old, you know, the the three C's came in there. So what is it, Columbus Centennial and Cascade? cascade yeah So give me pine, give me rasin resin, give me dank.
00:44:30
Speaker
um They pulled back on the dank because they didn't feel too many people would appreciate much of it. um And it absolutely just went gangbusters. It was ah one of our first beers in our advent last year. um It was so successful. We actually did another batch this year ah and we outsold our volume collectively retail and advent just in retail store this year. And the the response on that, and it wasn't obviously just about us, the customers were really appreciative that the beer was 1A, extremely well made, but it did exactly what it said on the label. It was an old school RPA and and the guys that are buying them, they were going, man, yeah, this really reminds me of when we all started this this this journey. And I just put a smile on my face, not just because it's a well-made beer, but a because it's King Road, it's WA, extremely well-made, but it reminds you of the good times. And like most things, you always remember the past as being good times. And if it's a can of beer that doesn't. yeah
00:45:36
Speaker
and I should have worn an old school t-shirt that Guy sent me as well for this interview. I wasn't thinking ahead. um And I guess back back to you guys. i so yeah Obviously, in terms of what's in store for you guys in 2025, I guess a lot of focus is on your third store. um And you know aside from that sort of looking ahead, Japanese sort of hopes for for beer. I know the WA beer scene's probably not been battered quite as heavily as other parts of the country, but looking ahead, you know what what what would you like to see? Yeah, I mean,
00:46:05
Speaker
Going off that and going back just a touch, you know, um it's pretty important to maybe reiterate how important the bigger breweries, Lucky Eagle Bears and them have been for us, like there's still a lot of love that they're giving back and be giving to them. um But the importance of these smaller breweries coming in is really setting a different sort of, I suppose, position for independent retail. um You know, those Eagle Bears and the Rockies, they're going to be keep getting bigger and bigger. It's these smaller guys that sort of give us a point of difference.
00:46:32
Speaker
um So the love between the bigger breweries and the smaller breweries and independents been pretty good. um But yeah, I just ah just wanted to touch on that because I think it's pretty important to you know not always concentrate on one segment. We think both are pretty...
00:46:44
Speaker
So for 2025 and what Nelly is saying about, so um and we're talking bigger breweries, the bigger independent ones. yeah If I look at one of the successes we have is our collaborations and making sure that that word collaboration is exactly what it is. ah We sit down with the respective brewers and ah one of our first ones was actually with Innate.
00:47:05
Speaker
ah We did an an oaked RPA and then following that was Eagle Bay's Oaked Vienna Lager, which is, this is our fourth year that we've made this collab with them. And that's kind of the the angle we're staying with because it does a lot of things in that it always represents the brewery. So Eagle Bay, it represents us, but it also represents that we actually go, it's not just another lager, it's something that we believe in.
00:47:32
Speaker
and you know, eat like I said, bringing Gilbert Bay back into the focus. So 2025 is definitely about our collaborations. We might have space for maybe another one more or two, depending if time or... One maybe. You should already be putting that in there. It's already here. Guy's already got his schedule is mood board is mood board happening and everything to get everything going. And I think that's the big thing. And and yeah and again, I'll reiterate that word collaboration. We sit down with these ah brewers and and and producers, because we've got a product that we feel has got a gap in the market. We would like to bring it in. um and the Everything's got to be right about it. the The label's got to be, it's got to have the message of what the beer is about, but what we're about.
00:48:18
Speaker
So 25, definitely about that. We'd love to move into other segments of collaboration. So obviously, in beer and spirits, are in wine and spirits. um that's That's a different ball altogether, but I think that's the big thing. 25 is definitely bringing more of those collaborative opportunities. I think with three stores, we'll be able to speak to a lot of these producers on a numeric level that they're going, ah okay, you know, we you can give us the efficiencies and the scope and the scale for us to make these things for you. um
00:48:51
Speaker
But yeah, I'm very cautious about not going into the, I want our own home brand stuff. I don't want to hide anything. I put it on the label, be as transparent about it as possible. If it works, absolutely fantastic. Get to tick. We'll do it again next year. And if it doesn't, well, there's something we learn from that. Consumers are our best educators. They'll tell us exactly. You can take the name off the label.
00:49:18
Speaker
yeah I think i think but this this is the full circle in this in this conversation is where we started was talking about um community and culture and a lot of the collaborations we do at the shop, we make a point of actually not doing many. Like we' we'll do, I think we've got four or four or five, that's it. But when we do them,
00:49:37
Speaker
we spend i've I've spent the best part of a year working on one that's getting launched next week. So that's really getting involved with the team, working out the why, who are we doing it for? Why are we doing it? What does it represent? We're not interested in putting two logos on a beer can and trying to sell it. And part of that is because over time we want to build interest and get people excited about the beer industry in a market which is contracting.
00:50:03
Speaker
So if we don't build robust collaborations, then it is just more noise and we're adding to this this debris out there. So partly it's because it's fun for us, but we want to build durable connections, if that makes sense.
00:50:18
Speaker
And probably just celebrating good good local businesses in beer, in wine, in spirits. I think beer wise, if you're if you don't have a good sense of who you are, who you're doing it for, and why you do what you do right now, 2025 could be quite challenging for you. You need to.
00:50:36
Speaker
get that stuff all lined up and then represent yourself well consistently. There are still so small players coming in that are knocking on our door, your hog culture up in the hills that are you know putting out one or two beers a month. And if they can do that and it's sustainable for them, then maybe just stay at one or two beers a month. You don't have to don't have to go for world domination.
00:50:56
Speaker
yeah I like it. Well, I think it was summarized basically. So there's a lot of C's in here. Copper and oak is basically the church of craft beer, from what you were saying earlier. And your own three C's are and community, culture and collaboration. So I think that's a pretty, pretty nice spot to sit in, I reckon.
00:51:20
Speaker
The Crafty Pint's Year in Beer series is proudly presented by Mogwai Labs, leaders in liquid yeast solutions. For the perfect pitch every time, visit MogwaiLabs.com.au. That's M-O-G-W-A-I-L-A-B-S.com.au. The Crafty Pint podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, CraftyPint.com. and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials.
00:51:53
Speaker
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