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Mikhail: Athlete and Medical Biller to UX Designer at Capital One.
29 Plays5 months ago
Mikhail (mich-ell) is a UX designer based in Dallas, TX.
He’s currently working at Capital One, where he creates digital experiences that empower users navigating through the loss mitigation space.
His purpose in design is to bring humanity to complex spaces and help bring captivating products and experiences to life.
Check out some of his resources: a resume refinement kit and a LinkedIn refinement kit
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Questions for Mikhail or the host? Would like to be featured as a guest? please email the host at [email protected].
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Transcript
Recording on a Wednesday
00:00:16
springboard
Hello, everyone. It's Wednesday, and it's actually Wednesday when I'm recording. Sometimes I record these on different days of the week. So it feels strange saying it's Wednesday when it's not. But today's actually Wednesday.
Meet Mikel: UX Designer at Capital One
00:00:26
springboard
I'm so excited to bring you another episode of Life After Tech Bootcamp. I have a super cool alum, um and his name is Mikel. Mikel is a UX designer based in Dallas, Texas. And he's currently working at Capital One, where he creates digital experiences that empower users navigating through the loss mitigation space. We'll ask him about what that means later.
Purpose in Design
00:00:50
springboard
His purpose in design is to bring humanity to complex spaces and help bring captivating products and experience to life. Michal, how are you today?
00:01:01
Mikhail
I'm doing fantastic. How's it going? How are you doing?
00:01:04
springboard
I'm great. I'm i am not jealous that you are down in Dallas right now in the heat. i'm I'm dying up here in Brooklyn, so I don't know how you guys do it.
Three Years at Capital One
00:01:14
springboard
Texas as strong is a real thing.
00:01:17
Mikhail
Yes, I enjoy the indoors this time of year for sure, but um it's still nice. It's nice. You get used to it.
00:01:23
springboard
Certainly. Well, um you have some exciting news about Capital One. Would you like to share it?
00:01:30
Mikhail
Yes, um it's going to be my three-year anniversary next month at Capital One, so array for me.
00:01:37
springboard
Yeah, congratulations. Three years, you know, obviously you meet people that have been in a company for 20 years, which is just mind-blowing. But three years is a lot of time to make an impact. So I know you've probably seen a lot. um how How has it been just these past three years? Like what's what's
00:01:57
Mikhail
Um,
Evolving Expectations and Experiences
00:01:58
springboard
so cool about it?
00:01:58
Mikhail
it's, it's definitely been a roller coaster, but ah it's a fun ride for sure. Um, you know, coming into a job, you always have these expectations of how things are going to go or how you're going to make an impact. And you hit a couple of walls and find a couple of people that guide you along the way. So it's been a really fun journey. I'm thankful for it. And I'm looking to keep the years going.
00:02:22
springboard
Certainly,
Career Shift: Medical Billing to UX Design
00:02:23
springboard
certainly. Well, before you got to this three-year anniversary, you were doing something completely different. And I realize we always kind of talk about that when I introduce people. But let's just talk about it now. What what was happening before you got to UX Design?
00:02:40
Mikhail
What was happening before UX design was a lot. I made that transition during COVID. So that was, you know, we all remember how that was, but um I did some design work before in my early years and um eventually actually got into medical billing. So what I was doing right before UX design or getting in the springboard had nothing to do with design, but I still brought a lot of those elements you know unknowingly. And once I was introduced to design, I had a really good friend of mine. He's a developer. And during that time, he was like, hey, I need some help on projects. And as I was helping him, he's like, hey, this is called UX design. And this is useful. You know um you should look into it and talk to a couple of people and found Springboard. It was suggested. And it was just everything I was looking for. so
00:03:39
Mikhail
really put a lot of language to what I was already doing and just happy to be in the field now, so.
00:03:47
springboard
Yeah, that's really cool. So I'm curious, your friend clearly knew you were the right person to help him out. um What kind of skills
Political Science, Sports, and Systems Thinking
00:03:56
springboard
did you have? where Were these raw UX skills that you had that um kind of made your friend think, hey, I'm going to ask you?
00:04:05
Mikhail
um I think Yeah, that's a really good question. um I'd say it's systems thinking or you know the the ability to segment a problem. um you know Everybody has an idea or everybody has a problem, but like figuring out an actual solution, it takes steps. So if you're able to try to outline those steps, that's useful. Research ah research is very important. um And I have like a political science background. so just like
00:04:37
Mikhail
the idea of like, OK, here's the problem. Let's go to the library and read everything that we can about it. Like that's kind of the nature of that field. And that's kind of they the nature of design. You have to be able to dive down those rabbit holes and see what you can find and make um trends and things like that. So it was it was natural. It was natural. And a lot of things that I was doing, whether from schooling or in sports, there was just a lot of different skills that kind of just transfer over to design and being able to have that like perspective.
00:05:12
springboard
Yeah, certainly. And I remember you were saying sports, that was kind of a foundation for you. And I don't want to speak too much about it because it's so cool. So let's, let's hear it from you.
00:05:25
Mikhail
Um, yeah. Uh, so sports played a huge foundation into pretty much everything that I am, you know, um, always saw myself as an athlete, um, was running around since I could remember. So just the idea of like working on a team and being tactical towards a goal and like building on your skills. Like there's just so many transferable things that you don't really realize it. When you're in the game and when you get to that moment, when you have to leave the game, it's even tougher because you miss it. You know, you miss the familiarity, but, um, you know, I was able to take that step back and, yeah and design was able to connect those dots for me to be like, Hey, like the same way I would study a playbook or talk to my locker neighbor and learn more about what he does and like,
00:06:16
Mikhail
working towards a goal in that way, like these are all skills I could transfer over in the workplace. So it's been really cool to see those dots connect and try to shine that light for other people as they try to connect those dots.
Football, Teamwork, and Tactical Skills
00:06:32
springboard
Yeah, absolutely. And would you share with the listeners what sport this is?
00:06:37
Mikhail
Oh, yeah.
00:06:37
springboard
look
00:06:38
Mikhail
Of course, it seems like a million years ago, but um I played football. um I went to Utah State, played football there, and then I actually finished my career at Notre Dame College in Cleveland. Shout out. um but Yeah. So I played football, which is very tactical. It's 11 on 11. Um, but you have a role and an assignment and you're really a gear in the clock, you know, so understanding what other people are doing or being able to evaluate yourself and like improve really kind of transfers over to like evaluating customers or pain points or opportunities in that same way. So, um, it's cool.
00:07:18
springboard
Yeah. I'm thinking about this now. i am I was reading this awesome book. I talked about it on this podcast before. I can't stop talking about it clearly.
00:07:28
Mikhail
Mm
00:07:28
springboard
but It's called Think Again by Adam Grant. and It was just referencing people who were constantly learning and not being afraid of being wrong. and It made me think when you're saying,
00:07:41
Mikhail
hmm.
00:07:41
springboard
football players have a role or tactical. I kind of wonder, I feel like to be a successful athlete, to be able to play for, it was Notre Dame. Yeah. Like that's a big school. And I feel like people don't just walk onto that football team. I think I don't know my teams that well.
00:07:58
Mikhail
Yeah, this this school is a little bit smaller, but I mean footballs are brutal sport anywhere. It's a tough sport to play. um Very competitive. um So yeah, I didn't mean to cut you off, but.
00:08:11
springboard
Oh, no, no worries.
00:08:12
Mikhail
Yeah.
00:08:12
springboard
i But I was just thinking it seems like to be, ah you know, an athlete that gets chosen to play on a team, they kind of have to be constant learners, like they have to be okay with making mistakes, being wrong and like adapting.
00:08:25
Mikhail
Yes.
00:08:25
springboard
And do you think that's accurate?
00:08:27
Mikhail
Absolutely, absolutely. You really have to, you can't be scared to fail um because that's a part of the process. You know, not every season you go undefeated, not every game is a perfect game, but it's like, you got to be happy and hopeful to do better, but you can't be, you know, ah too caught up in your wins either. So it's like, how do you stay even keel and like continue to improve and resili be resilient?
00:08:56
springboard
Sure. And I think we can both agree that that takes, that's a good trait to have for a UX designer because you're going to be wrong. like
00:09:04
Mikhail
Absolutely. Yeah. And not only that, just the nature of design is very like, you have to be vulnerable and you have to put your ideas out there and it might not be received the way you think. So how do you tailor it to the right audience and things like that? But like,
Post-Football Career Decisions
00:09:21
Mikhail
You can't be too in your head. like You have to play the game. If you're thinking in your head while you're running around, like you're not moving as smooth as you could. So give it your best shot, see what kind of feedback you get, and then alter your next action from there.
00:09:38
springboard
That's incredible. And I remember you were saying that, you know, i I don't want to remind you, both didn' end up going pro because like, I know that was like something in your mind, but you were, you knew that that wasn't the only option.
00:09:43
Mikhail
No, it's OK. Yes.
00:09:53
springboard
You entertained a couple different options. Um, I can't, I don't even know what it would feel like to go pro. Like I think I dropped out of my high school swim team. like mid high school, I don't know. So um let's talk about like some of the things you're like the paths you were thinking about back then.
00:10:11
Mikhail
Yes. Okay. That's interesting. um So I was always in like a weird crossroads where I was a nerdy athlete, but I was like a jockey nerd. So um I think at the end of the day, I was always just trying to explore what interests me, what ignited that fire and was interesting, you know, a challenge to me. I always liked the challenge. So you could find that on the field and in the classroom. So I was always looking for those challenges in that way. um I majored in political science, which isn't like a traditional major. I didn't know what I wanted to major in. I knew I wanted to write or like
00:10:54
Mikhail
talk to people like being empathetic or connecting to people was important to me. But my sister was like, hey, like, you like to argue. So you should try to be a lawyer.
00:11:04
springboard
you
00:11:06
Mikhail
And I was like, what is that? So um what kind of majors go with that. So political science was really like this general term that you can go with and you learn a little bit of social studies and research and then writing and philosophy and all of these things that interest me. So um I think knowing that I could use my mind off the field in the same ways that I can on the field was always interesting to me. But I just never had the time to explore exactly what those jobs were. Like I was already focused on one major job, which is trying to be the best football player I can be. um But eventually, you know, I got hurt and ended in a good career and still trying to chase that dream. But
00:11:56
Mikhail
Um, that crossroads comes up again. And we all have that crossroads in our career where it's like, okay, am I going to keep doing this thing? Or am I going to go for something new? Um, and I just remember being at a tryout and it was going decent, but it's always like just the luck of the draw in those situations. And I was just like, do I want to just be chasing this for the next four years? Or like, do I want to actually spend the time exploring those other things that interest me writing and and creating things and like using my mind off of the field. And I just took a chance on that. I'm like, that sounds like you know i can live I can do that until I'm old. Even in the ideal sense of sports, I'm going to have to stop at some point. So I just wanted to start the next game a little bit sooner.
00:12:46
springboard
that makes a lot of sense. And I think a lot of people can relate to just being on a crossroads and figuring out where they want to go next.
00:12:47
Mikhail
you know
00:12:54
springboard
And I know you didn't get right into
Discovering UX Design
00:12:57
springboard
UX at this point.
00:12:57
Mikhail
Thank
00:12:58
springboard
But let's fast forward to that point. So Your friend is saying, hey, this is UX.
00:13:02
Mikhail
you.
00:13:03
springboard
You should look into this. You probably are going to excel in this field. So let's dive a bit more into understanding how you decided UX was right for you and how you decided to pursue it officially.
00:13:19
Mikhail
Great question. um So that same friend, he wasn't pushy about it. He was just like, hey, this is something worth exploring. Remember COVID, right? So as a medical biller.
00:13:30
springboard
Pushy.
00:13:32
Mikhail
Well, yeah, right. Some good friends can be pushy. um But I was working as a medical biller. you know, everything was tied into the surgical centers and those were shut down. So I had that time off. I lost my job, unfortunately, but I'm like, how can I best use this time? um So that's where the work comes in. And that's where his guidance comes in on top of other things that I was doing. So once he mentioned it, I was like, okay, I know nothing about UX design. I'm kind of familiar with like coding or tech. It was a tech job. So like every time i and I hear the word tech, I'm like, I don't know how to code. right So like can I ever work in tech? But like there's hundreds of kinds of jobs in tech. So once I started digging into that and realizing, oh, I don't need to learn how to code in order to be in tech and make things, that's cool. And then I was like, I need to talk to some designers. I want to see if, like, what they do sounds interesting, or if like what can I learn from them? And I talked to someone that he knew from his network, and she was a part of Springboard before. And she said, hey, there's all kinds of boot camps you can go through, and like at the end of the day, like your boot camp experience is what you make of it. So try to find the boot camp that fits with your style, or how you learn best,
00:14:55
Mikhail
and try to run with it. I like Springboard because I had a mentor. I can talk to a person and that's kind of like more so how I like to learn. And I was like, well, me too. So I looked into it and it was between Springboard and another cohort, but I ended up going through Springboard and loved my mentor. He was a great like person to guide me along the path and like just kind of hit it from there, honestly.
00:15:21
springboard
That's awesome. Yeah. I think that's really cool how you said that you just wanted someone to talk to.
00:15:28
Mikhail
Yeah.
00:15:28
springboard
And Springboard definitely was a great place for me to talk to my mentor too. I don't know how much I annoyed him probably a little bit, but yeah. And also I loved how they put us into an internship. So we got some real world experience.
00:15:45
Mikhail
Yeah.
00:15:46
springboard
in my research and coming from a design background, I knew that you don't really need a master's degree for UX.
00:15:48
Mikhail
Okay.
00:15:53
springboard
You don't really need a degree in general. It's more like, can you do the job? Which is a lot of creative professions outside of like architecture where you need to have a license. But um yeah, ah I see where you're going with that.
00:16:02
Mikhail
Yeah.
00:16:08
springboard
And so you're in the course. why really stuck out to you during the learning process. um Was there any like interesting things you weren't expecting?
00:16:20
Mikhail
Yes, um absolutely. Good question. And just back to your point, because I love what you said, where it's like, because that's what stood out to me too, where it was like, I don't need a master's. I don't need like this other thing. It's just, can I do the job or not? um And when I looked at what that job actually was, I was like, well, these are things I like to do naturally. I like to do the research and plan out the thing and start creating something. Like I want to be in the middle of that and UX allowed me to do that. um So that's what was really like eye opening to me. I really like to compare design and it's not just design. It's true for other fields too, but like it's really like a martial art, you know, like.
00:17:05
Mikhail
Everyone could learn like, you know, taekwondo, but there's different belts, but everybody has a different punch. There's not one punch or one kick or like, I need to be this person in order to be high qualified. Like, no, I need to practice and train for me, learn from great people and like find my own path. So like that was the most enticing thing about design and UX in general.
00:17:32
springboard
Yeah. And the boot camp really gets to you hands on right away. I feel like a master's would have gotten too nuanced. Like I looked living in New York City, I looked at practice right here and two years to do what I did in under a year um for like way less money. It just seemed like a win-win.
00:17:55
Mikhail
Yes, indeed. Yeah, you get you get a lot out of what you're spending. And at the end of the day, it's an investment. And it all depends on the individual. But I think you really need to be trying to push experience. And I had a lot of real life
Applying Bootcamp Skills in FinTech
00:18:11
Mikhail
experience. I just didn't know what I was doing was called design in any way.
00:18:11
springboard
you
00:18:16
Mikhail
But then also, as I started to learn those foundational things within the program, I actively was trying to apply that in the real world. So like I wasn't just speaking from a place of, oh, I read this thing and like was guided through this thing. It was like, no. I read this thing, I learned, I tried it and it didn't work so I did this and that kind of worked or like I made a smaller version like people really want to see that adaptability a little bit more versus just the strict course itself.
00:18:48
springboard
Certainly. And I also liked what you said about how bootcamps are what you put into it. And I think Springboard gives an abundance of resources. I felt almost overwhelmed by how many resources there were, not just through Springboard, but like on the internet in general. And yeah, I think that's the same for any education, like Education is a tool, not a ticket. And like, you know, you can go to Harvard and still come out jobless. I'm sure Harvard's gonna work very hard to get you a job because they want good employment rates.
00:19:25
springboard
But at the same time, it's, you know, it is what you bring to the table. Obviously, there's some dynamics with the economy and just all of that, but people still are getting jobs out there.
00:19:37
Mikhail
Yes.
00:19:37
springboard
So I always wonder, what they're doing right to get to where you want to be.
00:19:44
Mikhail
Yes, um I think it's about finding that space for you and realizing that there is space for you. um Looking for a job or trying to find your way in your career is very anxiety inducing, but nobody can tell the future. You just have to really hold in on what do you value? What am I good at? what what pays me what is needed, right? Money comes into a play, but like what ignites me?
00:20:10
springboard
Thank
00:20:13
Mikhail
What could I show up and do every day? Or like, what are things that I'm good at?
00:20:16
springboard
you.
00:20:17
Mikhail
That's natural. um And trying to connect those two dots or whatever, however many dots to find that unique place for you, like to take a step back and show more so like how I did it. Like I was a medical biller. So that's essentially the accountant place of the medical office. So, very important to have ah respect for security and information and like all of that level of thinking, but then also knowing that the the numbers have to be balanced. I can't even leave until my balance sheet is correct to the cent. So when I started looking for a job, I'm going to lean towards FinTech places because when they start talking about, well, do you understand the security or like, yeah, I know exactly how serious it is. And i I understand that it has to make fiscal sense too. And that's something unique to my experience. And oh, I also designed. So like,
00:21:16
Mikhail
That was me connecting to early dots. And like there's other dots I could connect to find jobs or roles that like would really just fit me.
00:21:26
springboard
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So diving into the job hunt where you made those two connections early on, it sounds like you had a bit of a strategy. You went after FinTech. um Was that, am I correct in that?
00:21:38
Mikhail
Yes, absolutely. yeah you know I had a big list. and if i mean I'm not trying to like hype up Springboard this entire time, but like there are the abundance of resources, like you mentioned, and a part of it is like making this huge grid of like what job, where do you want to go? well What markets and all of that, who's in your network? and like So that was a part of the strategy, but like you're saying, like I really try to focus on my story. So like FinTech, I have an athletic background, I enjoy education. So those are all places that I really look to first versus, I mean, Apple's my dream job, but like I'm not gonna apply to Apple right now. you know That doesn't really fit into like my early story. I wanna find something that connects a little bit more to me and my journey and kind of build from there.
00:22:28
springboard
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That was your strategy. You're getting interviews, all of this. What was the boots on the ground job experience like for you?
00:22:41
Mikhail
boots on the ground job plan experience very stressful
00:22:44
springboard
um Tell me all the stressors. what what was the
00:22:47
Mikhail
Very stressful, very stressful. um Because again, its this was happening during COVID, um on the tail end of COVID. So, you know, jobs are ramping back up, but we're still in it now. The nature of work has changed.
00:23:01
springboard
Thanks.
00:23:02
Mikhail
So just trying to figure out, well, where do I fit? And interviews have changed. I did all my interviews remotely. So I was like, Drenched in sweat. like Of course they don't see that, but I'm drenched in sweat. you know like Super stressed out with every single call, but I really just try to hone in on like I'm being targeted. I'd send out you know maybe five a day. like I really didn't want to max out my effort because that's where you get burnt out. you know That's where burnout comes from. You're rampant at 100% and you're not getting the callbacks you want or you're not getting the places you want and then you're like, dang. and then
00:23:38
Mikhail
You've done all you can do in just two weeks, but if you space it out, you know, and I sent out five, I need to get a response. So I redid my resume and look more into jobs that made sense. And then maybe one more increase. So I'm like, Oh, all right, I'm on the right path. Like really kind of conducting these mini tests of how I was wording things really, um, was big on my keywords, like using job scan. Um, and then being open. you know, not being like, as even though I had those first jobs or markets I wanted to be in, I was open to any job, you know, and like being a learner and not being like, well, if Apple doesn't call me back, or if this place doesn't call me back, then like, that means there's no jobs.
00:24:25
Mikhail
I was applying wherever I could, um, keeping my energy up.
00:24:27
springboard
Mm hmm.
00:24:31
Mikhail
And then yeah, then I just got
Unexpected Path to Capital One
00:24:33
Mikhail
a call. It's like, Capital One was like a second thought. I didn't even know much about the company. I didn't even realize how big Capital One was. I was actually like waiting on a call for another internship like for an internship for an app that I knew, Headspace. And I was like, yeah, this is going to be perfect. And then my phone rings, and it's this lady from Capital One. And I'm like, OK. try to kind of be nice and get off the phone, but just cordial like, of course, sure, I'll learn more. And then next thing you know, she's like, you sound perfect. I'm going to move you on to the next round. I was like, I didn't even realize I was in a round, you know, so that I get off the phone and Headspace calls me. I did not get that thing. They're like, Hey, this is not that like we picked someone who was more aligned with what we were looking for. Sorry, you didn't make it. I was like, dang. And I was like, well,
00:25:25
Mikhail
I mean, just look, keep looking, you know, and into Capital One and it kind of just kept rolling. And as I learned more about the company, I was like, whoa, like this would be a great fit. It's a bigger company. It looks like they want young designers that they could kind of grow into like, you know, whatever superstars. And I was like, that's what I'm looking for. Another like bootcamp, so to speak. So it just made sense.
00:25:50
springboard
Yeah, i ah it's interesting that you say that um you know being at Verizon, i I didn't have quite as much of a strategy coming from fashion. I wanted to stay as far away from fashion as possible because I was just done.
00:26:04
Mikhail
Thank
00:26:04
springboard
um But yeah, Verizon, worked out and I really wanted to be at more of a medium-sized company because I like projects.
00:26:09
Mikhail
you.
00:26:14
springboard
Obviously, a UX designer, I host a podcast. I do other things. so I really like having my hands in lots of different areas of the business, but Verizon is way more pigeonholed. um but It ended up being perfect for me because I got to focus on a small part of the business and then just learn all the mechanics of it. and It's almost hard to fail at Verizon because there's so many people there to support you. Do you kind of feel like it's that way at Capital One where there's just, it's so it's so huge, like there's always someone kind of there to have a bit of a stopgap?
00:26:52
Mikhail
Yeah, for sure. I mean, we're in a highly regulated space, so it's not like anything, anyone can just turn the lights on at any given time, but um there is a lot of great talent. around you and it's like, it could be intimidating, especially at first, but it's just, you you have to continue to learn, learn what you can and also be confident in what you know, you know, you're bringing something to the table. It's not just the outside influencing the inside, you know, how you're feeling and how you're working internally could really have an influence around you. So um I just try to look for those opportunities and spaces at work.
00:27:29
springboard
Certainly. Well, okay. You're in this job now.
Collaboration in UX Design
00:27:32
springboard
Was there anything that's kind of surprised you about working versus studying UX?
00:27:39
Mikhail
Yes, yes. I'd say the first one is that you learn doing everything. Like, you're the researcher, you're the interaction designer, you're making the prototypes, you're making the debt, like you're doing every step of the process, but
00:27:52
springboard
Thank you.
00:27:55
Mikhail
UX and design in general is such a team sport. There's not only other designers, but then there's other stakeholders who care about the work, following the work, can influence the work. um That's not just my opinion on what I think we should make. um So that was interesting, like dealing with stakeholders and that was external forces. um I would also say that it's not linear at all. um So one of the things I came across was just the IBM design thinking loop. And at least for me, like when I was exposed to that, that's when design made sense. like
00:28:34
Mikhail
just doing it as the step by step thing felt really rigid like it made sense but like just naturally I'm like how can I cut corners on this thing like this feels kind of boxy like give me the good stuff but then once I seen like hey no these steps are important but that doesn't mean you're doing them in order at every single moment so seeing okay we learn a little bit we make a little bit we reflect we go back to you know the the beginning and think a little bit and do it again so like um
00:29:05
Mikhail
At least for me, that's like how I approach it. And that has been really cool to see like, it's not rigid at work at all. No, every day is a little bit different. How you handle every project is a little bit different. How you handle every stakeholder is a little bit different. So what are your values that you are consistent with become so much more important. it And sometimes those aren't the fancy, fancy UX work. It's just the human work and the, you know, the time and energy you got to put into things to simplify them, you know.
00:29:37
springboard
Yeah, absolutely. I was going to say the biggest thing that changed about me and maybe it's the same for you because you're also in a big corporation but for me instead of you know just ideating all automatically I my first question is okay well what's already been designed that's similar to this because we're not just going to create something new and reinvent the wheel I think our engineers would have a heart attack
00:30:04
Mikhail
Yeah.
00:30:06
springboard
on west So I think that would like to really, yeah, to not be linear, but to also rethink my strategy on how to start a project and how to get things done was something I leaned on my manager for to figure out best practices and then also just kind of not relearn, but it was something to learn on top of um what springboard taught.
00:30:31
Mikhail
yeah
00:30:33
Mikhail
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I like that. Again, like, I know I'm like cheesy with the metaphors, but like martial arts, there's no end to it. You keep going, you keep learning, you don't master a punch. You keep throwing it, you know, and as you get older, things change and you know, so it's like, it's cool to continue to add to your toolkit and like, be able to learn every day, which is really cool.
00:30:59
springboard
Absolutely. Yeah. i I think this profession is perfect for forever learners. um And again, going back to that book I can't stop talking about, he, everyone should read it. He'll describe this better than I can, but he was saying how a lot of people will learn a new topic and then they think that they become experts and then they stop the learning. And um and act they end up being, I'm forgetting how it's explained, but it's just not the best for our society.
00:31:35
springboard
you know When people think they know a little bit and then they act as experts, I think we can all imagine how that can derail a team here.
00:31:44
Mikhail
Absolutely.
00:31:44
springboard
So it's that constant learning and just, again, not being afraid to be wrong. like i I'm probably wrong about something every day. And he was referencing people in the book who um love being wrong, like they embraced it.
00:31:58
Mikhail
Yes. Yeah. No, I got to read this book because those are all things that are um useful not only to design because like it's it's you can implement it in every area of your life you know that always to be a learner and like not trying to be it's not about not trying to be an expert but just understanding and respecting like the tenure and the time that it takes and like there's some things that you just can't learn without time so it's it's nice to seek those people out and never
00:32:32
Mikhail
never be too, again, like sports, like too high on your laurels, you know, like get back to the grindstone.
Humanizing Loss Mitigation at Capital One
00:32:39
springboard
Absolutely. Well, speaking of learning and not being afraid of being wrong, not that I'm wrong right now, but what is loss the loss mitigation space?
00:32:46
Mikhail
yeah Yes.
00:32:49
springboard
I have no idea what that means.
00:32:51
Mikhail
So yes, I had to learn that too. So I work in auto loans, you know, um getting a car is a part of everyday life. um And a lot of people have to get a loan on that car. So what does that look like? It's kind of like magic in the back. And it kind of goes back to, like I said, trying to bring humanity to these complex spaces. So like, I remember buying my first car and all I was like, Hey, man, I just want a low monthly payment, you know, whatever you got to do. Like, I didn't know any of those things.
00:33:25
Mikhail
And unfortunately for some people after you get that car, you're unable to make a payment um and you get into a situation where you have to catch up. So how do we talk to people in those moments? How do we meet them where they are? um Just because your delinquent doesn't make you a bad person or a bad customer. It's a part of life. um So creating things that help customers and like, empowering them and then also just being an advocate as the business is working through things, um b be sharp enough to say, hey, hold on, wait a second.
00:34:01
Mikhail
like Not only does this have some design implications, but we're kind of like marginalizing some people here, you know? That doesn't happen often because I'm not the only person who's looking out for those things, but that's essentially the job as a designer. So, in loss meant.
00:34:15
springboard
That's really fascinating.
00:34:17
Mikhail
Yeah.
00:34:17
springboard
Yeah, I mean a form, you know, to or some sort of communication outreach, those are all going to function the same, but it sounds like there's a lot of content strategy and just how these messages are presented because One, I was watching a comedy set years ago and the comedian goes, if you think no one cares about you, skip a few payments.
00:34:39
Mikhail
yeah
00:34:40
springboard
And I just, I luckily have never been in that situation, but I would imagine if I was delinquent on a loan or something,
00:34:40
Mikhail
so
00:34:48
springboard
i would get a lot of aggressive messages but it sounds like capital one doesn't want to do that and i understand you might um not be able to speak completely about this you know if something's confidential but i'm so curious to know like what's going on with this loss mitigation space to make things sound more human.
00:34:55
Mikhail
Yeah. Uh-huh.
00:35:11
Mikhail
Um, I think, I think our slogan we're out to change banking for good is, is real. Um, so we, we own ah a big part of the space. There's a lot of people who have capital one and we just actively try to do good by them. Um, there's a lot of ways you can handle delinquent customers. There's a lot of ways you can handle any kind of customers, but I think we really try to go above and beyond to meet people where they are. um And then not only do that, like empower the workers to do that so that we can do the work to meet them where they are. So I feel like they're they're doing good work in two spaces, both how they treat their employees and you know how they treat their customers.
00:35:57
springboard
That's fantastic. um Well, God forbid I ever get behind on some payments. albeit it It'll be something interesting to experience. Maybe not. I don't know what I'm saying. I'm just going to stop.
00:36:09
Mikhail
Yeah, yeah, not soliciting in any way, shape, or form, any given entity. There's a lot of other great places, so just speaking from my opinion.
00:36:20
springboard
ah Absolutely. um Well, with that being said, you know, what overall has been the most rewarding part of your job like you've kind of you've been through lot like you know thinking you thought you may have been the NFL then you got into like medical billing and doing all of these other kind of side projects that we haven't gotten to talk about yet now you're a UX designer um what's full circle like looking back like what are some of your reflections
00:36:52
Mikhail
Hmm. Um, the journey's worth it. The journey's worth it. Um, not the easiest past few years or, you know, you get to those lows, but always was forward thinking, always believed in myself and believe in the mission. And it feels really cool to be in a space where like my life experiences mean something. It it impacts my work. I can bring myself to work. Um, and try to influence things. And it's really cool to think not too long ago I was working as a medical biller, which is a cool profession, a lot of respect, but it's it's essentially lost mint. It's people who owe on their medical bills. And I remember always taking the time to, hey, like give that kind of empathy and sometimes getting a little bit of pushback to say, like hey, like you're taking kind of long.
00:37:46
Mikhail
you know like and you You got to hurry up. It's all about time. you know like That's great that you're thoughtful, but you're taking a lot of time. And that sucks. And there was a lot of other things that like I felt like could have been done better.
00:37:56
springboard
you
00:38:00
Mikhail
But like no, you got to focus on your job. you know But design, now I'm working in lost mint still, but it's the opposite. They want me to bring myself to work to say, hey, yeah, take your time, bring your opinion to make sure that we're doing the right thing and doing right by customers. And also having the toolkit to actually do it, to build the thing. um I don't have to say, hey, this thing sucks. And that's it. I could say, hey, this thing sucks, but here's a way that we could make it a little bit better. Like I'm here to help. like What can we do? like I think that's really cool. And that ignites me every day, for sure.
00:38:36
springboard
That's fantastic. Well, that is looking back at the past. What's happening with the future? You just hit your three year anniversary. What's next for you?
Aspiration for Product Management
00:38:48
Mikhail
What's next is to keep it going. um Keep learning, diving deeper into the field. I feel more uncomfortable at my workplace every day, but new challenges are out there, whether I switch teams or companies or whatever. There's other design challenges to look for. So I'm interested in those things. um And then I'm also interested in getting into product management. So the other people, it seems like, oh, these are very different fields. But I think at the end of the day, we're just problem solvers. And there's different ways that you can do it. um Being a UX designer is really cool. And it allows me to be a problem solver in the visual medium.
00:39:29
Mikhail
But I think product allows me to still have some influence there, but also dive more deep into the business and to the tech development and to all the other ends of the spectrum when it comes to a business. And um that excites me. That sounds like interesting problems. So I want to like kind of bring my design hat to product management and see how far I can go with it.
00:39:52
springboard
Yeah, and ah ah really just a growing profession. So, and I feel like you just be a, I want to say like a triple threat.
00:39:57
Mikhail
Yes.
00:40:02
springboard
Let's say you're a triple threat UX, design product design, I'm sure there's something else I'm not, I'm sure there will be something else in there.
00:40:03
Mikhail
I'll take that.
00:40:09
Mikhail
Yeah, I'll find something just normal dude. I'll take that like UX product and normal dude by being able to simplify those things and take the magic off of those things. I think it was a superpower in a way.
00:40:23
springboard
I absolutely agree. Well with that being said, is there anything else that we didn't get to talk about today that you'd like to share?
00:40:31
Mikhail
No, nothing in particular. This is a really awesome forum. I just stumbled across it through LinkedIn. We had a great conversation in like our pre-call. We could have recorded that even, but um I would just say, hey, reach out to me via LinkedIn. I always try to lean especially more towards people who went through the Springboard program. I know what you've been through.
Connecting with Mikel on LinkedIn
00:40:54
Mikhail
I'm honored to be an alum, but anybody who's interested in design and Connecting those design dots in their career.
00:41:02
Mikhail
Feel free to reach out. I have tons of resources to share Maybe some of them will be linked in the description But yeah Oh, yes, Michael m ik
00:41:10
springboard
Yes. Yes. You definitely shared some really cool things that you've put together and I will definitely share them in the footnotes. So you, um, those who are listening, well, first of all, can you spell your name? So people are adding the correct. Well,
00:41:29
Mikhail
H-A-I-L, last name Morgan. You can find me on LinkedIn. And yeah.
00:41:37
springboard
Yeah, Mikel, you definitely, I took the time to read through some of your resources and they really are awesome and um really ah humbled and happy to have you part of the UX community, just uplifting everyone. um I think, yeah, I probably said this too many times on this podcast, but it's been a really great way to connect with others. And I know um when I was networking, trying to talk to people and learn their stories. like This would have been awesome.
00:42:08
springboard
um Not to, you know, to my own horn.
00:42:11
Mikhail
Yeah, no, it's a great forum.
00:42:11
springboard
and really But not everyone has time for one on ones. Like I, I'll be honest, I've definitely turned some people away just because I'm currently trained for a marathon. I work full time. I volunteer doing other things. I'm hosting this podcast. So sometimes taking an hour out of my day is just a little too much for me. So this is just a great pass away, I think, to learn a bit about others um on someone's not on someone else's time.
00:42:34
Mikhail
Yeah.
00:42:43
Mikhail
Yes, no, yeah, I will definitely double down on that. like Everyone who reaches out to me, I'm not gonna have a one-on-one immediately. I'm definitely going to respond. I'm gonna share some resources with you, but if there's any advice I can give, like the more tactical you can be, like, hey, can you give me advice on this specific thing? um Or, hey, I went through all of the stuff you provided, this is the thoughts I have, or what's next? We'll definitely go a long way for you. so
00:43:12
springboard
Certainly. Well, on that topic, I personally have just been getting a lot of emails or messages on LinkedIn saying, from people I don't know, asking me to refer them to Verizon, and I'm happy to refer people I know, but if I don't know you at all, I i don't feel comfortable. I just don't know you.
00:43:33
Mikhail
Yes.
00:43:34
springboard
That's how I feel. How do you feel?
00:43:36
Mikhail
You know, now it's, it's, it's the same thing.
00:43:36
springboard
i adult to
00:43:39
Mikhail
It's tough. And like, especially when you work at bigger companies, like as much as I would love to say, I have sway, there's a very rigorous process as far as what you go through. Um, so like just going through those channels to start is always useful. I think just knowing who works there is helpful or knowing those stories. But yeah, that there's not much I can do for you, especially if I can't like speak for you personally. It's tough.
00:44:08
springboard
Yeah, I agree. I would say, though, if someone had an interview at Verizon and then they reached out and said, Hey, i'm I'm interviewing with this manager, would you want a one on one? I'd be open to that since you know they've already kind of been a little bit vetted.
00:44:19
Mikhail
Yes.
00:44:22
springboard
But yeah, I gotta say, people listening, if I don't know someone, asking for a referral is a big ask. And that's not networking. That's not building relationships. And I know it's tough out there. i I can't imagine what some people are feeling right now. And I'm probably sounding like a bad guy right now.
00:44:43
Mikhail
No, it's a tough topic, but it's it's true.
00:44:46
springboard
But i yeah, brutal honesty, ah I'm sorry.
00:44:51
Mikhail
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, um like just to try to wrap that up in some of what I think, you just have to be tactical. um build relationships with people. And a lot of stuff that you'll learn about what you need to work isn't just talking about the work per se, you know, understanding the story and understanding the tactical bits of it is important. And you got to take your time just jumping into, hey, refer me and
00:45:22
Mikhail
Here's my portfolio isn't always the best start of the conversation if you're really looking for that kind of mentor relationship or for like, you know, resources and guidance.
00:45:34
springboard
Certainly. Yeah, I agree. um Know your audience, I guess.
00:45:39
Mikhail
Yes, yes, better way.
00:45:40
springboard
right Well, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story. um I always love talking to people. Again, i say I'm saying the same thing on every podcast. i Every person I meet, every episode is just like so special to me. And I'm really excited for people to connect with you and hopefully get some of your awesome resources that you've hinted at. And for everybody listening, if you have any questions for it myself, or would even like to be featured as a guest, we are opening up the podcast more formally to people I don't know. Please email me at alumnipodcast at springboard dot.com.
00:46:23
Mikhail
awesome
00:46:44
Mikhail
Yeah. Awesome.