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Josh: US Navy to UX Designer at Booz Allen Hamilton
32 Plays5 months ago
Josh is a User Experience Designer at Booz Allen Hamilton. Before completing the Springboard UX/UI Design Track Certification in 2022, Josh worked as a Lieutenant in the United States Navy.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Life After Tech Bootcamp'
00:00:14
springboard
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of life after tech bootcamp. I don't know where everyone else is listening from, but in New York city right now is turning into a beautiful summer and so much is awaiting. I'm sure everyone has plans. Um, but other people are still thinking about their careers. And today we have another awesome person to discuss their career journey with us. So today I'd like to introduce you to.
Josh's Transition from Navy to UX Design
00:00:41
springboard
Josh. Josh is a user experience designer at Booz Allen Hamilton. Before completing the springboard UX-UI design track certification in 2022, Josh worked as a lieutenant in the United States Navy. Hi, Josh. Welcome to the podcast.
00:00:57
Josh Abenojar
Hi, Elizabeth. It's really good to be here.
00:01:00
springboard
Yeah, likewise. I'm glad we finally got to connect. I know you were I am not military literate, but you were called into, you had to reschedule our podcast because you had to go train some sailors, but there's probably a better way to say that.
00:01:17
Josh Abenojar
I mean, no, that's exactly what it was.
00:01:19
Josh Abenojar
So I'm currently serving in the Navy Reserves. So each year, i'm called I'm called back in for two weeks to a month to do something for the Navy. And just happened to be this year, I was called to train 50, 55, 60 sailors on you know just bear basic military ethics and some you know training modules, essentially, that'll help, ah quote unquote, um ready the navy for future events. I'll say events just for for the sake of safety.
00:01:19
springboard
okay
00:01:52
springboard
so yeah um You know, no need to be TMI. But anyways, um I know something we were discussing a bit before we were recording.
LinkedIn Job Inquiries: Josh's Perspective
00:02:03
springboard
Getting a job right now is super, super hard. And I'm really curious about how you feel when someone messages you on LinkedIn and they're like, hey, it is Booz Allen hiring? Can you get me a job there? But you don't know them at all. You've never met them. how that like What's your thought process on that or how do you feel about being approached that way?
00:02:27
Josh Abenojar
um I think I'm pretty neutral about it. I think it depends on the person. um there There are definitely people who are a little bit more kind about the approach. You know, they want to at least say, you know, hey, I'm this person and I saw your your LinkedIn. You seem like a good person to talk about it. And then there's that flip side of the coin where they're just demanding something from you. You know, um in both cases, I will always try to lead to a referral because I do just like helping people um because i I understand the struggles of the current job market. um So I think regardless of the fact, rude or not, kind or not, I will always try to help them and just try to keep my feelings aside because I know that
00:03:18
Josh Abenojar
you know whatever they're feeling is probably worse than what I'm feeling
Booz Allen and Navy Reserve: Roles and Responsibilities
00:03:21
Josh Abenojar
um if they're if they're reaching out to a stranger for a referral.
00:03:21
springboard
Yeah.
00:03:25
springboard
That makes a lot of sense. Well, I'm sure those listening to this podcast are probably all going to be reaching out to you jobs at Booz Allen. I don't even know what Booz Allen Hamilton is. I feel like I should. It's a defense contractor, yes?
00:03:40
Josh Abenojar
Yes, it's a defense contractor. We have a lot of government affiliated military affiliated clientele. um So we're just a big, big company of consultants, essentially, and we're all we're all assigned different clients to support whatever it is that they need supported.
00:04:00
springboard
That's so cool. And it makes sense that you were hired into this position being a lieutenant in the Navy. And as you say, I am so military illiterate. Like I know what that means, but I don't know what that means. So let's talk about what you're doing before you were doing user experience at Booz Allen.
00:04:18
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, I mean, in the Navy, so yeah, Lieutenant was just, you know, that's that was my title. But I mean, if you want to put in civilian terms, I was a project manager, essentially. So I was in charge of a bunch of different projects across, you know, the the Navy ship that I was on, and had to do with budgets and people management and talking to higher leadership and clientele, essentially, um in order to complete a mission or to get the ship out to sea or something of that matter, you know, um And I did that for five and a half years before I decided to get out of the active active duty side and go reserves. um But definitely a lot of hours, a lot of sacrifices are made. um i had I have a family and I didn't see them for almost three and a half years.
00:05:08
springboard
wow
00:05:08
Josh Abenojar
Um, so a lot, I loved that the Navy, I love what the Navy offered me. Um, I learned a lot. Um, and it definitely helped my transition into Booz Allen for sure. Um, but, um, the Navy gave what it could to me and I took it and then I
Journey into UX Design: From Navy to Bootcamp
00:05:30
Josh Abenojar
left with it. So.
00:05:31
springboard
Wow. Yeah, that's so interesting how you say it's basically a project manager. i Again, being illiterate with military talk, that's really fascinating. But yeah, I always thought of lieutenants as they kind of oversaw everyone, which is basically what you described.
00:05:48
Josh Abenojar
yeah Yeah, in the Navy, it's it's it's pretty much just a government corporate corporation. there's ah There's a hierarchy of levels. um And I just happen to be in the middle of that hierarchy. And I'm just in charge of, depending on the ship or the project, 25 to 50 people with 5 or 10 different clients and you know or stakeholders to get the needs met.
00:06:13
Josh Abenojar
um
00:06:13
springboard
Yeah.
00:06:14
springboard
Yeah. It makes a lot of sense because I feel like a lot of people from the military eventually transitioned to being a police officer or a firefighter because I know that I have a friend who's a police officer here in New York City and he has described, he's not a lieutenant yet. He just joined the force, but he's kind of described that similarity.
00:06:34
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, no, very similar. Aside from, you know, that program manager hat, we did a lot of trainings as well as like, you know, firefighting training, and security training, which is why you see a lot of military go into those type of jobs, because ah it's like a very direct reflection of what they actually did out to see, you know, fighting fires, or shutting down, shutting down security gates, or, you know, just protecting the people. you know At the end of the day, any military branch, we we are protecting you know our freedom, we are protecting our people in the United States, and a lot of our sailors like to transition that over into the civilian side as well.
00:07:10
springboard
Okay. Okay. Fascinating. Well, okay. But you didn't become a police officer or firefighter. and You became a UX.
00:07:15
Josh Abenojar
No.
00:07:16
springboard
So let's, let's talk about that. Like what what happened there?
00:07:20
Josh Abenojar
I mean, it's not so much what happened. It's more so when it happened. um it So back, you know, just before the Navy and into college, I wanted to do ah human centered design engineering, which is like another facet to UX design. But the Navy, I was on scholarship, they didn't like the fact that I was going into a design major in college. So they gave me an ultimatum. They said, your scholarship, or UX or human centered design. So I was like, okay, well, I can't lose my scholarship. So I majored in physics and you know went into the Navy. um Five and a half years later after college, the Navy has absolutely terrible user experience in everything and anything. um Their programs are all paper trailed. Their machinery is like 70s and it takes like 22 buns just to power it on.
00:08:17
Josh Abenojar
so So my my my love for for UX was fueled by how much I hated bad user experience. um so you know, get out of the Navy and was like, okay, it's time. It's time for, it's time to pick up what I couldn't in college. And I wanted the fastest way to it, essentially. um I considered, you know, getting um getting my masters in human centered design or HCI or some UX, you know, something of that sort, but it wasn't fast enough
Bootcamp Experience and Job Application Strategies
00:08:50
Josh Abenojar
for me. um So I looked into boot camps and I went to springboard and did all did the springboard thing.
00:08:57
Josh Abenojar
Here I am now.
00:08:59
springboard
That's interesting that you said it wasn't fast enough for you. I also felt that way. I also felt like I had a lot of overlapping skills, which I'm sure you kind of did in the military with describing what you did. um Yeah, I kind of felt like a master's was a bit of an overkill. And I came from a design background and I kind of knew in my previous field in fashion design that a degree wasn't really necessary. Like obviously you need a degree to be a doctor or a lawyer. Like there are certain jobs that just require that training, but yeah. So I was curious, was it and the speed that you just wanted to get through it or did you find other reasonings that a bootcamp might be a better fit for you?
00:09:46
Josh Abenojar
Speed, definitely was a big one. When I joined, when I was, when I left the Navy, I was in Japan. So but one, finding a master's program that lets me do it from, you know, internationally was hard. um ah Money, again, big, big thing, you know, master's degree versus what springboard offers. or any boot camp really for that matter for for talking about money. and on and And what you just mentioned, the the need for a degree. you know I did a lot of research prior to getting out of the Navy as far as what UX is required of. And I saw that a lot of people didn't have a degree in in design, but more so just experience in it and that they built that themselves. So it it was those three things that really helped you know funnel my decision into springboard
00:10:36
springboard
sir Sure, sure. Also, one thing I noticed, I don't know if you picked up on this, was that obviously UX designers need a portfolio. And it's often a strike through if you don't have real world experience in your portfolio. So I felt like even in a master's degree, I wouldn't really have real world experience either. So it's like spend six figures on a degree to have student work, or spend way, way less than what springboard um is charging. to have the same level of work.
00:11:08
springboard
so And plus Springboard puts you in the IDP, the Industry Design Projects, which is like an internship.
00:11:15
Josh Abenojar
Bye.
00:11:15
springboard
So yeah, I didn't know if that was something you thought about either.
00:11:19
Josh Abenojar
It was, it was, honestly, it was the IDP that kind of brought me to Springboard. I was really excited that I was able to get, you know, like I was able to put a real world company with a real world experience on my very, very lackluster UX design resume, you know? like So that that was really appealing to me and I was really excited for it. Unfortunately, I didn't get to do my IDP, ah but that's another story.
00:11:47
springboard
What? Why not tell it now? Is it?
00:11:50
Josh Abenojar
that's so
00:11:50
springboard
Unless you don't want to. I don't want to make this.
00:11:51
Josh Abenojar
no and no Absolutely, I wasn't sure if we were saving the conversation for later, but I actually got ghosted.
00:11:58
springboard
No.
00:11:59
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, I got ghosted. um and i And I don't know if it was because I picked up my my job offer while I was in the process of getting my IDP.
00:12:11
springboard
Hmm.
00:12:11
Josh Abenojar
Um, but so I got assigned a company, um, through springboard and then a week later I got my job offer from Booz Allen. And then a week after that, I finally met the company and I told them, Hey, I got a, you know, I got a job offer. They're like, Oh, great. That's awesome. But then weeks and weeks go by and I've been, I'm emailing them like every two, three days and nothing.
00:12:36
springboard
Oh.
00:12:36
Josh Abenojar
And I, yeah. So I, I, I email, you know, springboard administration and, uh, I tell them like, I can't, I won't be able to graduate on time if I try to do IDP. So I have to, I have to, I have to cancel it. So yeah, no, uh, I didn't do an IDP.
00:12:56
springboard
Oh my gosh. So then did you actually graduate the program?
00:13:01
Josh Abenojar
I did. I did.
00:13:02
springboard
OK.
00:13:02
Josh Abenojar
So i I messaged Springboard a week before my final deadline, essentially. And I used up the entire, like, breaks.
00:13:13
springboard
You need to need to take the breaks.
00:13:13
Josh Abenojar
ah Yeah. So I emailed them like a week out before my final deadline. And, uh, fortunately my mentor was very, very supportive of what happened and he really pushed through and then I graduated. So it got my certificate and it still says IDP on there because I was able to show my emails that I was like actively trying to like get work with them. Um, so that's interesting that I have IDP on my certificate, but not done an IDP.
00:13:44
springboard
Huh. Well, I mean, you did get a job. So at least you weren't like stranded at first.
00:13:47
Josh Abenojar
Yeah.
00:13:50
springboard
I thought you were going to say like springboard stranded you and you never got student IDP project. Then you spent a year job hunting and like life was rough. Um, i'm I'm glad you did get your job sooner rather than later. So it sounds like your job hunt was shorter than some.
00:14:07
Josh Abenojar
yeah it Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:08
springboard
Let's talk about that.
00:14:11
Josh Abenojar
um And this is where I i think i I differ from a lot of students that come through Springboard. And a lot of prospective Springboard students talk to me now about the program. And I always tell them when they ask me this question, um I started applying for jobs at the end of Capstone 1.
00:14:31
Josh Abenojar
And i and i tell I tell people all the time, um one, you could you should be able to leverage your previous background and to make it sound something like UX um and to like, I've already accepted the fact that I had very little UX experience. So getting used to denial then will make it easier later on when I actually have more in my portfolio. um And that's also something I did that was different than what Springboard wanted. I had my portfolio ongoing throughout the ah program.
00:15:06
Josh Abenojar
If I remember that correctly, they wanted to make their portfolio like at the very end of the program, like just collectively do it all at once.
00:15:10
springboard
yeah Yeah, they did.
00:15:13
Josh Abenojar
um I didn't like that when I saw that when i saw the ah program outline, so i I signed up with Squarespace immediately, and I had some had it laid out, and I had four little quadrants blanked out for my four projects. Unfortunately, IDPs are still blank on my portfolio. But no, yeah, I started applying ah very early on, got ghosted a lot, got a lot of denials. Um, but as I moved forward, right, my resume got better. The way I presented myself got a lot better. Um, and as more projects funneled in, especially with the Google sprint, because that's, most that's, that's very real life. Um, but my real life, I mean, like that's a very corporate standard, a one week or two week sprint. Um, I started to get a lot more notice from companies because my name was out there now and I started getting some callbacks, not a lot.
00:16:09
Josh Abenojar
um but But I think honestly the biggest thing is just learning how to leverage your previous experience and honing that into a more and more UX the more you apply for jobs. Because you wouldn't ever expect Navy background to and be anything UX. But it has to be, if you're going to apply. you know so And to anyone who listens, teacher, firefighter, fashion, you know anything like that, you can spin it to be UX. Anything can be spun into UX. You just got really gotta...
00:16:45
Josh Abenojar
learn from the mistakes when you apply. And that's what I did. And I was very and i was very fortunate ah to have landed where I was because they really appreciated that I tried to make my resume UX with all my Navy background, with, with you know, just theoretical projects, essentially.
00:16:50
springboard
Yeah.
Translating Skills: From Military to UX
00:17:09
Josh Abenojar
Um, but they loved that and they loved how passionate I was about the projects and how much I understood the process of UX. Um, so yeah, no, my job search, I won't say shorter. I will say it started earlier.
00:17:28
springboard
I love that. ah So much about that I want to dive into. Yeah, that's fascinating that you started earlier. And I i love that you kind of broke the rules like that. There is something to be said for doing something a little bit before you're ready. Like you said, it kind of helped prepare you for the rejection. But also, I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you kind of knew you were going to get rejected because you weren't maybe ready yet. You weren't that far along on the course, but kind of seeing how the motions work and like why you might be rejected and just the mechanics of it. It sounds like really helped you once you got a bit more experience.
00:18:10
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, no, absolutely. um And I honestly think that that mindset might have just been my personal experience and just being mentally stable enough to do that because I was in the Navy.
00:18:24
springboard
Mm-hmm.
00:18:24
Josh Abenojar
So I'm not saying that's like 100% like, this is going to work. I don't ever recommend denial to anybody. But if that's something that they're interested in, they think they're mentally prepared for that much rejection,
00:18:37
springboard
Whoa.
00:18:38
Josh Abenojar
by all means ah but but again you you take that with a grain of salt right you need to accept the fact that you don't you don't have experience you don't have the resume for an entry-level UX job yet but you got to try and if you don't try you'll never know
00:18:56
springboard
Yeah. Yeah. And you can definitely see what's working and what's not. And another thing that you pointed out, you can spend any career into UX. And I would love to hear a bit more about
Bootcamp vs Real-World UX Work
00:19:09
springboard
that. When I hear that, I think sometimes I see people take it a little too far. I realized quickly in fashion design, just because I could manufacture a garment doesn't automatically qualify me to design someone's interface. So I really still had to pull in the soft skills, and I didn't discount my background at all.
00:19:32
springboard
But I also really needed to back up that I could do the actual UX job, which is not just what happens in a boot camp, but like dealing with stakeholders. like I present stuff to lawyers, which i'm probably I'm sure you do too, working with military contracts.
00:19:42
Josh Abenojar
you
00:19:46
springboard
like There's just so many more mechanics like springboard teaches you perfect practice and they do a great job. But also having the foresight to understand what actual UX designers do to prove that you can do that to employers. Yeah, that's that's where I said so I feel like there's a gray area if I'd like to hear your opinion on that.
00:20:06
Josh Abenojar
No, I mean, I completely agree. It's the soft skills that you have to spin. But I think the problem with a lot of people who try to spin soft skills is that they try to put in the hard words of springboard, you know, of the UX design, like, oh, I articulated a a usability test when I made this dress, you know, like, that's, that's, that's absolutely, like, ridiculous, you know, he you have to be
00:20:29
springboard
Yeah, that's cool.
00:20:31
Josh Abenojar
you have to be able to articulate the idea and thought of UX in the current position that you are in. So for myself, right, I i used no, no, some more form of like, like alert, alert words, right? I didn't, I didn't say usability tests. I didn't say heuristic analysis. I didn't say any of those big, big UX pop up words. You know, I just said, I was able to, I was able to take an Excel spreadsheet, and I was able to to lay it out in a way where it was easy to read, it's simple to follow for stakeholders to see and make a decision quickly. you know And that might not sound like UX, but when you get into the industry, that's exactly what needs to happen. you know So it's just being able to take your soft skills, implement it in a way that that sounds actionable, and then relay that in your interview as a UX process.
00:21:27
springboard
Okay, so what's an example from the military your military background that you use to spin into a soft skill for UX?
00:21:34
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, um I think my biggest one was communication and collaboration. If I'm gonna think back to my to my interview with Booz Allen, I think i use a so I used a bunch of numbers, right? I said that there was a $500,000 project that I was in charge of where I was required to collaborate with 10 different stakeholders and four different clientele in order to achieve a viable plan in order to execute um X, Y, and Z. um I did this by developing a a production plan that delineates from point A to point B exactly what needs to happen from the start of the meeting up until the development of said equipment.
00:22:33
Josh Abenojar
And to which I expanded how that is similar to UX, where I said, um although this may not be a very UX like process, um it's it similar in a way where you have to start with the research the same way I did with the initial meeting, where at the end product where we needed to develop an equipment is kind of like the manual viable product um that you need in order to even present to a stakeholder. Um, and that's just kind of like how I spun a lot of my interviews was this is what I did in the Navy. I know it wasn't UX, but this is how it can be UX.
00:23:12
springboard
Sure. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You showed that you were thinking as a UX, or even though you you weren't practicing UX, that's just how your mind works. And I think at the end of the day, that's how people are successful in the industry.
00:23:22
Josh Abenojar
Yeah.
00:23:29
springboard
A lot of people, I think it takes a bit, sometimes UX and that the methodologies and the understanding and the practice of it comes more naturally to others than it does to some. So yeah, I think that's definitely a great first step to think about your background and a way of how it can be implemented within how you exercise.
00:23:50
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think a lot of, you know, boot campers, newly graduates are so focused on speaking to their portfolio and they should be, right? But obviously it's not real world, right? Which is why I only focused on my soft skills when they asked me like, Oh, what did you do with UX? You know, in previous in your background, like everything is theoretical and springboard up until IDP. Um, So even though I didn't speak about any actual like wireframing or high fidelity prototyping, I can show that in my in my portfolio that I did that, that I that i can wireframe, that I can you know create a high fidelity prototype.
00:24:32
Josh Abenojar
So you don't have to speak to your you know to your hard skills. That's what your portfolio is for. Your portfolio is hard skills.
00:24:37
springboard
the Yes, I agree. And speaking of hard skills in your portfolio, how do you feel about employers giving you a take home project to do.
00:24:48
Josh Abenojar
I don't like it. And I think it's sketchy.
Job Application Insights and Strategies
00:24:52
Josh Abenojar
um I ah hear too many stories about, you know, these employers or recruiters giving, you know, these interviewees a quote unquote take home project. And then it's just like a start starting point for them. ah Free work, essentially. and then they don't get hired. So I definitely tried to stray away from it. I did, I think I did one, one take-home project for a company and I didn't like it because they gave me a week to do it and then I didn't get picked up for it and I don't know what they did with the work and I thought about that and I was like, so where did this all go? It seemed pretty official.
00:25:36
Josh Abenojar
um
00:25:38
springboard
Yeah, yeah. And also, yeah, a week to do something, I'm sure they wanted a bit of research done, they probably wanted the whole process done in a week, which is not doable um because we take pride in our work. We don't want to just, yeah, I had one take home project where um they wanted me to send one to two hours on it. I'm like, no, this is going to take two to three days. And yeah, I did not get that job and I was i will never do a take home project again.
00:26:08
springboard
I also don't think it's a good way to evaluate your skills because it's very, again, it's very hypothetical.
00:26:09
Josh Abenojar
Yeah.
00:26:14
springboard
If anything, I would say a bootcamp project is a better way to evaluate your skills. I'll be bold enough to say that.
00:26:20
Josh Abenojar
no i completely yeah No, I completely agree. I think even even the one where where you had experienced a you know developing in one to two hours, like in my in my you know near two years of being a UX designer, I never had to design anything in one to two hours on the spot. you know it's It's not realistic.
00:26:38
springboard
Yeah. yeah
00:26:41
Josh Abenojar
and you're the timeline you have to do a full-on project that that they give you in Springboard is definitely more realistic. um And then even more so realistic when you do it with the Google Sprint, an actual weeks of an and actualual week of work.
00:27:00
springboard
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so we hear it now. avoid those companies. It's not a good way to evaluate your skills. And I can't imagine working for them would be that great. so Do with that what you want, listeners. bye So moving on, yeah, you got your job at Booz Allen pretty quickly. um ah So you were applying for jobs very early on. Did you have a strategy for this? Because clearly your experience being in the Navy and then working for a defense contractor, it just sounds like peanut butter and jelly. um But yeah, what what what was your strategy? What was your overall job hunt like towards the end?
00:27:46
Josh Abenojar
I'm not gonna lie, I didn't have a strategy.
00:27:48
springboard
and That's okay, I'm pleased with neither.
00:27:49
Josh Abenojar
i yeah um Springboard gives you you know this this nice little spreadsheet to keep track of your companies with like, this is how many people are on there and this is, it is it a big company?
00:27:55
springboard
Uh-huh.
00:28:00
Josh Abenojar
Is it a small company? Yeah, no, I trashed that immediately. um And I just went on LinkedIn. I went on you know clearance jobs. I went on, if if if they offered a job, I was probably on it.
00:28:14
Josh Abenojar
Um, and I just applied, I didn't keep track of anything. Um, so if I applied to a company twice, I might've, um, so, uh, I had building. The only thing that was organized was the amount of resumes and the amount of cover letters that I had written. And I think that was the only quote unquote strategy that I had. It was just keeping everything in line just to make sure that if I did happen to apply to the same company again, I had it.
00:28:14
springboard
Hmm.
00:28:44
springboard
Amazing.
00:28:45
Josh Abenojar
But yeah, no, I don't know if I kept track of how many jobs I did per day or per week. It was definitely just very go with the flow. Like I just need to start applying so that my name's out there. My name's in some company's database and then maybe they'll reach out.
00:29:02
springboard
Certainly. Yeah. And what's your opinion on cover letters? Because I personally never got anyone asked me for an interview if I wrote a cover letter, but I did get interviews when I didn't write a cover letter.
00:29:17
Josh Abenojar
Um, I don't think it hurts. I don't think there's an advantage nor disadvantage to a cover letter. Um, nowadays now I see them as just like, do you want, do you want to have an attachment to your, to your application? And it's like cover letter, red letter recommendation, etc. So honestly, I don't think it's that important anymore. But if for whatever reason you think that it'll give you some one up because your resume doesn't cut it, I don't see why not. um it's gonna be in there and if they read it and they like it that might be your one up you don't you won't know you know so if you have an extra 15 minutes or even like three because we have chat gpt now um yes
00:30:04
springboard
Not a vow when I was applying for jobs.
00:30:04
Josh Abenojar
its
00:30:07
springboard
so
00:30:07
Josh Abenojar
yeah right me too um so if you have three minutes just copy the link of the of the job that you want attach your resume and say hey chat gpt can you write me a cover letter for this company i'm applying and i'll spit it out for you so if you have three minutes and you think you have it and you think that it'll give you one up go for it but um unless you're going for speed then don't
00:30:35
springboard
Right. Yeah. I don't think anyone's ever gotten rejected because they didn't write a cover letter. So I always, towards the end when I was getting interviews and I was like, okay, something's going to happen soon.
00:30:40
Josh Abenojar
Yeah.
00:30:48
springboard
If someone asked me for a cover letter, like a job application online, I would, I just stopped applying.
00:30:57
springboard
But anyways, you did eventually get your job. um What do you think worked? What kind of things did work, even though you didn't have a strategy?
00:31:08
Josh Abenojar
um I think what worked was honing in on exactly what I wanted to do in the design process. Springboard does a really good job giving you the foundation fundamentals of literally everything, right? But but what I've noticed with a lot of recent graduates is that they want to be a UI-UX product designer. you know And that's that's a big spectrum there.
00:31:38
springboard
Mm
00:31:38
Josh Abenojar
you know um And that's how I started right when I did Capstone 1 and I started applying. Oh, I'm a UI-UX product designer and manager, um which didn't cut it, obviously. And the further I went in, the more honed in. I did my cover letters, resumes, and portfolio.
00:31:58
springboard
hmm.
00:31:59
Josh Abenojar
and just really focused on what is it that I'm trying to get, and it was user experience design. you know um And I recommend that to everybody. Figure out what specifically you want to do, hone it in, and then write all your previous experience to that specific position um and stick with it.
00:32:26
springboard
Okay.
00:32:26
Josh Abenojar
That's really important, you just gotta stick with it. It's gonna it's goingnna get really gruesome, it's gonna get really tiring and go get really mentally exhausted if you're gonna continue to try and reach the spectrum. It's it's a lot.
Passion and Authenticity in UX Careers
00:32:41
springboard
Right. And also it's impossible to be good at all of the entire process. Like there's no way you can be an amazing researcher an amazing UX designer, I just, at some point you have your strengths, you have your weaknesses. like UI is just very meh for me, but I know I'm really good at UX design and testing and understanding and validating what works and what doesn't. And that's where I play that up. um Yeah, I always say like, you know, lean into your strings. I knew that I wasn't going to be working for an agency that took on like really slick projects that were fun and like, that just was never going to be my career.
00:33:24
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, no, i I completely agree. And you know when you when you play to those strengths, you you start talking less like a robot, I think. Because I think, a lot again, a lot of boot campers, a lot of new graduates, a lot of people new to the industry like to spit out these these big words that speak to their you know, there want to be a UX designer or a data analyst or something like that. And that's not the case. You aren't that what you want to be, but you got to be passionate about what you're talking about. And you can be passionate about something you're not good at, especially with something that's new. um So I think that's also a big thing is just
00:34:13
Josh Abenojar
Being able to not speak like a robot and be passionate about what you talk to ah talk about. I remember early in my, in my interview with Booz Allen. um i had I didn't have my portfolio ready. It wasn't up. it wasn't I didn't have any presentations. It honestly came to a surprise, but um I spoke about it. I had no script ready, but I loved that i ti was able to talk about the the Google Sprint. I loved that I was able to talk about um you know the parts of the design process that I really liked, and they liked it too.
00:34:51
Josh Abenojar
so you know, it goes a long way to be personable to be able to show passion and love for the ah job or the career or that sort.
Daily Responsibilities and Challenges at Booz Allen
00:35:05
springboard
Yeah, I completely agree. I think UX is almost a mindset. It's not something you just do for 40 hours a week and then go back to your life. I think true UX designers are always thinking about efficiency and like why think why things are the way they are. and i just as I've been working in the field, people are just so excited to show up every day. Obviously, we have our good days and bad days, but it's interesting to see just people be so excited and geek out on UX. So I think
00:35:41
springboard
if someone isn't really in that sphere, they're going to have a tough time getting into the field. I've also just noticed a lot of people are interested in it because it is, you know, let's be real, it's a well-paying job and it's a career that's growing. And I think a lot of people are attracted to that. I i definitely didn't want to pick a new career that wasn't growing and well-paying, but I generally wanted to do the profession. It wasn't just about the money and the career growth for myself. So that's that's a lot of what I've seen as well.
00:36:15
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, money drives a lot of people's decisions. um And sometimes it doesn't bode well. And I think if it does drive your decision to do springboard or to get that certification, I think your interviewers will very clearly see that.
00:36:34
springboard
Yes. Well, okay. So you're at Booz Allen now, Booz Allen Hamilton now. What's your day in the day life like? Like, I know you probably work on a lot of confidential projects, but we want to hear as much as you're able to tell us.
00:36:47
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, no, absolutely. So um I'm 100% remote. And a lot of my team and clients are East Coast eventually. and i'm on the And I'm on the West Coast, so their day starts three hours earlier than mine. So I got to accommodate for that sometimes. um But a lot of my days, Monday through Friday, is just littered with meetings with you know a developer because they need a UX review or my design team because we're collaborating a ah new you know a new module or or a new component.
00:37:22
Josh Abenojar
And there's a lot of administrative things, because we we as a team in Booz Allen do two-week sprints. So every day, we talk about what was completed, what needs to be completed. And then the next week, we do a sprint review, sprint retrospective, which is like a hey team, how how do you think we did? um And then a sprint planning, which is you know just what are we going to complete in the next two weeks? So a good four hours per day, I would say, is meetings.
00:37:56
Josh Abenojar
And the next four hours is just trying to stuff in as much design as I need to, or as much review as I need to. a lot of my but A lot of what I do right now is high fidelity mockups and prototypes, which I present to the clientele or stakeholders.
00:38:05
springboard
Bye.
00:38:16
Josh Abenojar
Um, I've also recently picked up accessibility design, so a lot of 508 compliance and testing, um, and presenting that to stakeholders and clientele. Um, and that all, and again, it just, it just repeats. But I mean, you know, we learned everything in springboard and I don't do 90% of it, you know, I, I do high fidelity designs and prototyping.
00:38:39
springboard
Wow.
00:38:42
springboard
I'm sure that's more than 3%.
00:38:42
Josh Abenojar
Um,
00:38:45
springboard
I'm sure you can't do like maybe like 40% of what Springboard.io.
00:38:45
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, maybe.
00:38:49
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, maybe. I'm not saying that Springboard taught me useless things, right? It's all a very useful things.
00:38:55
springboard
Right.
00:38:55
Josh Abenojar
um But yeah.
00:38:56
springboard
But it's also good to like know how researchers work and how they're, you know, i mean I don't know the ins and outs of what you need to do, but if you need to conduct research, going to a researcher and understanding how they're going to do what they do so that you can set expectations is so important.
00:39:14
Josh Abenojar
Oh yeah, absolutely. Unfortunately, like in Booz Allen, our teams are so separate. Like I don't talk to any of the researchers. there's There's a research team and design team. We don't talk to the research team. We get their data and it just got to figure it out and make it into something.
00:39:27
springboard
Okay. Vanilla, I'll start with you.
00:39:29
Josh Abenojar
So yeah, no, I mean, I can really agree. ah When you get and you get something like that, you get this paperwork of research, you understand where it comes from. And that's something that I wouldn't have known if I didn't go through the whole springboard. so
00:39:43
springboard
Certainly. Well,
00:39:45
Josh Abenojar
you
00:39:48
springboard
Forgetting the next question I was going to ask you. Oh, yes. OK. I was curious to hear as we were talking about what we learned in springboard versus what you're doing now. Was there anything that surprised you about the job that springboard didn't prepare you for? Not to say springboard was lacking, but I always say like school can't teach you real life. Like it's. Yeah.
00:40:13
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, no, no, no. I understand what what the question is. And honestly, I i think it's honestly just that. it Springboard can't prepare you for for real life. You know you can can take on as as many you know coach calls as you as you want. You can talk to your mentor for as long as you need to. and But at the end of the day, the the the day to day, the actual stress of the industry can't be taught. And I don't blame springboard for that.
00:40:45
Josh Abenojar
I would hope that as a student, you know that, right?
00:40:50
springboard
impossible. It's impossible. No, like I know some bigger colleges with more funding will get incubators, things like that, but there's no way you can mimic the real world in school.
Career Growth and Job Satisfaction at Booz Allen
00:41:03
Josh Abenojar
yeah and you know that's just that's just something that springboard will try and help you go through but actually can't do for you not at least until you get there um again no no no harm no foul on springboard they taught like they'll teach you everything that you you need to be taught in order to get from point a to point b but there's still a point c and point d you know so
00:41:15
springboard
Yeah.
00:41:28
springboard
Right, right, right. Yeah, I remember, um like that second project, I don't know if it's changed, but you're supposed to pick between five different like industries. So one you could design a music app, one you could do e commerce, and they would have some constraints. So whatever the e commerce one was like, 25% of people are abandoning the car. It's because the site makes you make an account before you can check out. We need a guest checkout. So design this. And it's like, okay, well, now I have to design design a website that's wrong to then make it right to show my work, which that, that was my biggest annoyance. Like that was, that was the most frustrating part of my experience was that, yeah, in real world, like you're just going to have a problem right there glaring at you. You don't have to recreate it, then design around it. So that was,
00:42:24
springboard
an interesting challenge for me.
00:42:27
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, no, I agree. i mean But aside aside from from you know the the real world versus bootcamp experiences, I think a lot of people will find surprising that you don't use everything as what Springboard makes it out to be. um like Even in even in ah the design sprint portion of the UX UX course, you still don't do the entire thing, you know, and you work and you don't work with developers, you don't work with analysts, you don't work with testers.
00:43:00
springboard
sorry
00:43:01
Josh Abenojar
so i think that's just I think that was surprising. It was surprising to me that i was but there were two other two other designers, and that's all we did was design. We didn't do any use we did do any research. We didn't we didn't do any any user feedback. It was just, here's my high-fidelity design.
00:43:21
springboard
Mm
00:43:22
Josh Abenojar
Developers, please design it.
00:43:23
springboard
Yeah, yeah, that's very true. Well, that being said, you sound like you're on a great foot. um Things are really coming up for you. What is next for you? Where do you see yourself going in this career?
00:43:38
Josh Abenojar
You know, I think I'm going to just try and climb this corporate ladder for now. I personally don't think I have enough experience under my belt to just job hop right now. um So I'll probably stay at Booz Allen for for a couple more years and see how how things take me. um I really like the company. I like what they do for me and I like what they do for the rest of the world. um So that might keep me. um but I think I'm just gonna continue with the UX ux career line and you know keep creating things that people use so that they can save lives.
00:44:17
springboard
Yeah, well, that's awesome to hear that you really like where you are and you um are for the values of the company. I think it's kind of rare that people really love their jobs. um I know i I feel very lucky. like I have a great working environment. I i don't want to leave anytime soon. um But you know what's interesting? like I've you know interviewed so many alum through this podcast. and I, you know, being a millennial, I'm on Instagram, you see all the career influencers like, you get a new job every two years, so you can make more money. And first of all, like, that's a lot of work. Second of all, like, it's so interesting to hear what everybody says on the internet, versus what the people I've been interviewing saying, like, most people here
00:45:09
springboard
want to stay at their current jobs. Obviously, we're putting this out into the public, so i I would imagine no one here is going to admit, like, oh, I'm searching for jobs now. I hate the current company I'm at.
00:45:19
Josh Abenojar
if
00:45:20
springboard
but I haven't gotten that energy either, even behind the scenes when we're talking off the mic. like Most people want to stay and work at their jobs, especially if it's working for them. So it i it's interesting to see this peripheral vision. Obviously, this isn't data a data-driven opinion. It's just very peripheral from what I've seen.
00:45:41
Josh Abenojar
No, I think i I agree with that statement. I don't know if it's the the scare of the current current world and and the layoffs or just because they're comfortable. you know Either way, um good on them for wanting to stay and wanting to make it work. You don't see it often anymore.
00:46:01
springboard
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:01
Josh Abenojar
You know you don't see it often. um And we need people like that. you know companies won't Companies won't thrive unless we have people who want to stay.
00:46:10
springboard
Yeah.
00:46:12
Josh Abenojar
And if they're not money driven and the money is enough, there's no reason to try and reach for more.
00:46:18
springboard
Yeah.
00:46:19
Josh Abenojar
So not to say that you should be complacent.
00:46:19
springboard
Yeah.
00:46:21
Josh Abenojar
All I'm saying is that like, if the current paycheck is paying the bills and you still have some to save, there really is no reason to try like even harder to get a pay raise at a different job, especially when things are working out.
00:46:28
springboard
me
00:46:35
springboard
right I would also add in if your well-being is okay, because
Mental Health and Job Satisfaction Priorities
00:46:41
springboard
I was having this conversation with a friend who doesn't work exactly in UX, but um she describes this as a golden handcuff.
00:46:41
Josh Abenojar
Yeah.
00:46:50
springboard
She has really good benefits. She has a lot of vacation time, but she's just miserable. And, you know, there's going to be some trade-offs going to another company. And it's interesting, like, would you rather lose, like, so much vacation time to have, like, the normal American, like, tiny little bit of vacation for a healthier mindset that you have to have 40 hours a week for 52 weeks a year? um Yeah, like, there's always that kind of trade-off. But yeah, yeah, it's tough out there, man.
00:47:19
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, no. Yeah, absolutely no. if if it's If it's a mental thing, like you're you're sacrificing your your mental health, I would 100% do a lot of soul searching and look for another job. I left the Navy because of not severe mental issues, but but because it was hard mentally for and physically for my family.
00:47:44
springboard
yeah
00:47:44
Josh Abenojar
i and i took And I took a slight pay cut.
00:47:48
springboard
no
00:47:49
Josh Abenojar
but for the but for the sake of balance, for the sake of mental health, for the sake of my family. So that there are you know there's there's hard decisions like that's gotta be made when you get comfortable in a company and you really like the benefits, but the work is just not there for you. um
00:48:05
springboard
Yeah, yeah, I know all checks and balances, but I guess, you know, ah going back to kind of how you, Do that soul searching to kind of figure out what's next in your career and thinking about what makes you excited. Like you were saying the military is just so not user friendly and translating that into a career. um There's always hope at the end, I guess is balwar what we're trying to say.
00:48:30
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, absolutely.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:48:33
springboard
Well, with that being said, is there anything we didn't get to talk about today that you wanted to share with everyone?
00:48:40
Josh Abenojar
oh You know, I don't, I don't think so. If, you know, for the listeners out there, if there's something that you wanted to hear, um please feel free to reach out.
00:48:51
springboard
Yeah, well, um, I'm assuming we can reach out to you on LinkedIn because before we recorded, we discovered you're not a TikToker influencer and things like that. So we'll, we'll just, do LinkedIn. That's fine. I'm not either.
00:49:04
Josh Abenojar
LinkedIn is perfectly great.
00:49:06
springboard
Great. Could you spell your name, um, first and last so that people are adding the correct Josh?
00:49:11
Josh Abenojar
Yeah, absolutely. So first name is Josh, J-O-S-H. And then last name is Abenohar. So that's A-B, B as in boy, E-N-O-J-A-R, Josh Abenohar.
00:49:25
springboard
Amazing, Josh. Thank you so much for your time. This has been a pleasure. I love meeting our alumni community. Everyone has such a unique and interesting story, but I think we all just have that connected sense of resilience and excitement about what's next. And I i only wish that for everybody listening that they that people can relate or eventually relate or just find a little bit of solace in something we're saying. so yeah For everybody listening, if you have questions for Josh or myself or would like to be featured as a guest, please email me at alumnipodcastatspringboard.com.
00:50:06
Josh Abenojar
Okay. Okay.
00:50:19
Josh Abenojar
Bye.