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Bartender to Software Engineer
37 Plays8 months ago
In February of 2022, Casey graduated from the Springboard program with a Software Engineering certificate.
Before starting a career in Software Engineering, he worked as a Bartender at a ski resort.
He now works for Powin Energy as a Software Engineer, where he writes internal applications and device drivers for grid scale battery energy storage systems.
If you have any questions for Casey or myself that could be answered on a future episode, please email me at alumnipodcast@springboard.com.
Inspired by this story? Interested in finally taking the plunge by starting your career in tech?
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Interested in finally taking the plunge by starting your career in tech? How does $1500 off a Springboard Career Track Course sound?
Use code EPEHT at checkout to save $1500.
Learn more here.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:13
Speaker
Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Life After Tech Bootcamp. We are post Lunar Eclipse, which was exciting. If you were in that area, I know living in Brooklyn, we saw, I think, 85% coverage. I'm probably wrong on that, but we're not here to talk about astronomy. We are here to talk to another alum who's super cool, and I'm really excited to introduce you to him.
Career Transition to Software Engineering
00:00:40
Speaker
And today we are going to meet Casey.
00:00:42
Speaker
In February of 2022, Casey graduated from the springboard program with a software engineering certificate. Before starting a career in software engineering, he worked as a bartender at a ski resort. He now works for Power and Energy as a software engineer where he writes internal applications and device drivers for grid scale battery energy storage systems. Hi Casey, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thanks for having me on. Really, really stoked to be here.
00:01:11
Speaker
Yes, likewise. And I'm curious, did you get to see the eclipse in your neck of the woods? I did not. The totality here, I think it was like 30% or 40%. Although in 2017, there was an eclipse that passed by us here, and I got to go see the whole thing. I see. OK. Yeah, not quite as exciting as, I guess, this end of the country. But you know what? That's fine.
Misconceptions and Realities of Software Engineering
00:01:40
Speaker
So one thing I know you brought up that I thought was kind of interesting, and I know that's on top of your mind, software engineers, as you say, they only are coding about 20 to 30% of their time. I think it's something that kind of gets glossed over a little and doesn't really get paid much attention to.
00:02:06
Speaker
There's the software development and software developer job roles, but to be a software engineer, you're only spending a third of your day at Max coding, actually writing code. You're in meetings, you're designing, you're asking questions to architecture and figuring out requirements, you are discussing things you've already written, documenting things you've already written,
00:02:35
Speaker
going through processes, updating your systems, adding things, subtracting things. It's the actual sitting down and writing of code doesn't take up as much time as I think I thought at least before I got started where I was like, oh yeah, I'll be writing code almost all day long. And it's just not how it happens. It's kind of crazy. Yeah. So is this a positive thing for you or a negative thing? Because I'm sure some people are code monkeys. They like that. But then other people want to be more involved with strategy or
00:03:04
Speaker
something else involving not coming all day. Yeah, so I think, I mean, I love writing code because to me it's like puzzles. It's like a big puzzle or a game, which is kind of the reason I got into it. But I also do enjoy the kind of like the eagle eye view that you get and like the responsibilities. I mean, documentation is not everybody's favorite, but it's kind of necessary. But like as to
00:03:34
Speaker
contributing, listening to architectural designs and contributing thoughts and ideas. It kind of has a social aspect to it that I'm a fan of as somebody who was a bartender. Right. I remember you saying just talking to people is really a very strong, soft skill for you. Yes, yes. I came from the service industry and I was a bartender, a server for many years. So talking to people, just communication, it's
00:04:04
Speaker
It's not only a soft skill, it's something I enjoy, like socialization.
From Bartending to Software Engineering
00:04:07
Speaker
So it's a good kind of break. Because when you are a developer, let's say, or you're an engineer working on your own, doing your own startup, you're kind of in a silo doing your thing. But it's nice to have the chit chat some discussions with your team. Certainly. Well, before you were doing all of this, you were a bartender. So let's talk about what was happening beforehand. You were bartending.
00:04:33
Speaker
What happened before you decided to get into software engineering? So if you had talked to me in the five years leading up to when I started Springboard, I would have said to you, man, I really want to get back into coding. I really miss doing that. I want to get back into software development. Or I might have talked to you about how I think sustainability is a big push, but our biggest problem is energy storage.
00:05:01
Speaker
really crazy that I wound up in a company where that's what I'm doing. But I just kind of was being a little bit of a ski bum, like working at a ski resort, bartending. It was great. I mean, don't get me wrong, I got to snowboard like 40 to 80 days out of the year. It was pretty wonderful. But it also wasn't like, wasn't propelling my life anywhere. Wasn't much
00:05:29
Speaker
intrinsic reward for the work other than making a bunch of friends. Sure. You say that it was fun for a bit, but then after a while you kind of felt like you needed a bit more of a challenge in life. Yeah. And I kind of knew I'd hit my ceiling, right? I knew I didn't want to go into restaurant management of any sort. Maybe one day I'll own a bar, but it's not really where I envisioned myself.
Impact of the Pandemic on Career Choices
00:06:00
Speaker
And, uh, yeah, it just kind of felt like I needed more of a mental challenge. Like it was physically challenging, which as you get older, it's harder to do obviously, but, uh, I wanted more of a mental challenge. I wanted something to, uh, to kind of like engage. Certainly. Well, with that mental challenge, what steps did you kind of take to start challenging yourself? So, so I was a, it was, it's the universe kind of a,
00:06:31
Speaker
did me a solid and well, it did a lot of other people very dirty. I was working two jobs about 70 hours a week, right up until about March of 2020. No idea what was happening, that no idea. Yeah, it's kind of weird. I got laid off from both my jobs at the same time. They told me it wasn't my fault. No, but so so COVID kind of happened. And it was it was this great moment where I had like a
00:06:58
Speaker
I had two weeks where I just kind of took off, stayed at home, lounged around it, didn't do anything. And then I sat, and I was like, this could go on for a while. Also, it just gave me some perspective, a chance to reset. And I was like, what do I really want out of life? And it came back, and I was like, man, I've been talking about how I want to get back into software development. So let me do this.
00:07:22
Speaker
My wife at the time was not my wife, but we were living together and had started the UX UI in Springboard in about December of 2019. So she was in the midst of her course. And I was like, yeah, I could just do this as a way to start. But I didn't want to do it right off. I wanted to make sure I still wanted to do this. And so I dipped my toes in the water.
00:07:51
Speaker
self-paced learning course from Google on Python that was like nine years old. So it was a struggle to get through because the syntax had changed. And then I went on and I took a couple of Udemy courses for Python and Java and Django as a framework for Python. And that's gonna come into play when I actually got my job. But after doing that and realizing, you know, my wife graduated and she got her job
00:08:21
Speaker
that was when it was like, okay, now it's time for me to go. We were kind of supporting each other through. And yeah, so that launched, that gave me the opportunity I had at that point already been actively writing code and practicing for almost a year and a half, almost two years at that point. Incredible. So when you were in Springboard, that was when you were a year and a half into it?
00:08:50
Speaker
When I started springboard, I had I had put in I had put in a lot of time in some self paced courses. Yeah.
Benefits of Structured Learning
00:09:00
Speaker
So you pretty much knew that this was going to be the career path for you. Yeah, it was it was a way to to let myself like really think about it and realize like, hey. You know, this is what it feels like to do this for eight hours a day, five days a week.
00:09:19
Speaker
Is this something I'm going to be comfortable doing for a long time? And that may have contributed to why I thought I'd be spending seven hours a day coding. Well, you know, maybe there will become a day where you do have to do that, but you did end up going to springboard. So what if you've been practicing this for a year and a half, what made you think that you needed another course on top of all of this work you've done?
00:09:47
Speaker
So there was a couple of things, which was that Springboard offers a software engineering track. They're trying to help you get a job. So not only are they teaching you the programming languages and frameworks and paradigms and how to put things together, but they're also teaching you how to network and job search. They're preparing you to enter into the workforce, into the real world. That combined with the fact that
00:10:18
Speaker
With self-paced courses, it's pretty easy to just click through a bunch of videos that say you did it. And this, I had my mentor, I had people checking my work. It's like it's an accredited school, right? So it holds a little more weight than a digital certificate saying that I completed a Udemy course. Certainly. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I also felt that the Career Services was better than my undergrad.
00:10:47
Speaker
I believe that. Yeah, I am still paying off that undergrad. I'm up as well. I'm where I am for many reasons. But so with that, you're in the course. Was there anything that you were doing outside of springboard to kind of prepare you for this career you're in now? Yeah, so I wasn't I wasn't attending hackathons, which I kind of wish I had done at least one. I was
00:11:15
Speaker
I was at meetups. There's a meetup for the area. I live in Portland, Oregon, Portland Junior Developer Meetups. And I was going to attending those. I was reading. I was reading books. I was reading articles, diving deep into topics. I'd see something in the course, and I'd be like, oh, that looks pretty cool. Or like, I don't quite understand that. Or what does that do? And I would just kind of rabbit hole into things for a while.
00:11:46
Speaker
It definitely gives you a better perspective into things and a little more rounded out knowledge. Springboard is doing a great job of teaching you the basics of giving you everything you would need to enter into the workforce, but more than need, you want to be able to perform well, or I do. So I want to know more. I need to learn more. I need to understand more.
00:12:16
Speaker
something we have kind of hit on before, which is that continuous learning is a huge key in life. And it's definitely key in this industry, especially in this industry where frameworks are changing, languages are changing, syntax is changing, people are updating, they're moving, trying new things.
00:12:37
Speaker
Part of the 10% of my job is that we'll switch a process and we'll change a framework. We'll use a different technology. And I need to familiarize myself with it. And I need to have an idea of how it works. And it's helpful if when I first hear about it, I look it up a little bit. And I look at some of the documentation, examples, walk myself through to
00:13:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I also agree that UX is very much a continuous learning experience. I have a whole list of books to read, and I love these are my favorite word books. What books did you really identify with? Or maybe that's not the correct way to say it, but that really made an impression on you. So there is one that I will recommend to everyone. And they have this book in a couple of different
00:13:30
Speaker
languages, but I read it in Java. It's from O'Reilly, which also is a learning platform. It has some cool stuff. It was called Headfirst Design Patterns. And so one of the first things it does, it leans into object-oriented programming, something that Springboard doesn't really touch on. Because in web development, if you're using TypeScript, you're going to start using types, and you get into objects a little more.
00:14:02
Speaker
It's a little less reliant on it. But the OOP, Object Oriented Programming Paradigm, the thought mindset, is kind of the standard in the industry. And the design patterns that it teaches you are a language. They're a tool to communicate with their colleagues and with architecture about how to design something. Instead of having to describe every single thing, you say,
00:14:32
Speaker
oh, we're going to use the builder pattern for that. Or oh, we're going to use the command pattern for that. And we're like, oh, OK, cool. And that book specifically, they do it in a way. It's not 900 pages of words. There's photos. There's contrived, silly, ridiculous little circumstances. There's little fun teasers and games you play. It's designed to be engaging and help you remember the material.
00:14:59
Speaker
Yeah,
Continuous Learning in Tech
00:15:00
Speaker
that does sound really engaging. I'll admit, I tried coding once and I just, I could not do it. I couldn't even do it for eight minutes, let alone eight hours a day. Um, but this book makes me want to actually try again because it does sound really cool. So I mean, yeah, even if you, and that's the thing is even if you don't understand, cause it does have like little bits of code to link in there, even if you don't quite understand what the code means, it'll explain the patterns and like,
00:15:28
Speaker
how they interact and what they do in such a way that pretty much anyone could pick it up and understand it. Yeah, I'm definitely going to check this out. Also, the extra information couldn't hurt. Because if I'm designing things, you guys are building. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure. There's a certain amount where that's true. One of the product managers at my company has read this book. He asked for a recommendation and has read this book because he's really trying to understand how things work.
00:15:56
Speaker
because there is that disconnect between developers and UX where they're like, well, just make it do this tiny thing. And sometimes the things that you on the design team think is such a small change, like has crescendoing or domino effect kind of effects down the line. And it's like, that's really hard to implement. And then other times, things that you think are huge, it's like, oh, I've got to change two lines of code to make that happen.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah, I can see that. I've never been the position to understand what you just described, but I definitely could imagine that's the case. So that being said, I know we're talking about things you do outside the course, but I think there's a
00:16:44
Speaker
a big topic of people wondering if they need an undergraduate degree to get into tech. And from my small peripheral experience, I actually talked to my recruiter who got me into my job now, what she looks for. And she said, companies are kind of half and half. Some companies care, some don't. And I was actually really surprised that it was in her experience half and half.
00:17:13
Speaker
But then I've also just seen Google, all these big companies, they're dropping that requirement to get an undergraduate degree before getting a job at this company.
Value of Practical Skills Over Degrees
00:17:24
Speaker
And I know you don't have your undergraduate degree. So I'm curious to see what your perspective has been like on that. So I will say they do
00:17:35
Speaker
they do prefer an undergraduate degree. But if they prefer an undergraduate degree, it's because it's in some way related, computer science, math, engineering, some sort of something of that sort. But if you have a communications degree, it might not be the most helpful. They might not really consider it too much. But yeah, the company I applied for, or that I work at now when I was applying,
00:18:03
Speaker
I think one of the requirements was an undergraduate degree and they hired me and I don't have one. Now I've taken, like when I did go to school for a while, I just didn't complete the curriculum and it was for engineering and I have taken computer coding classes on and off since high school. So like I've always dabbled in it a little bit, but really I think it's about what you can, it's about showcasing your knowledge and yourself.
00:18:33
Speaker
and being your authentic self. Because a degree is great. It shows that you can follow and complete a curriculum, dedicate to something, and spend some time doing it. But there are a lot of people who, like myself, who can still do the job without it. It's not a pass-fail. It's not like you didn't get the degree. So obviously, you can't handle it. You can't crack it. I've seen at my company, I know there's a range. There's at least two other
00:19:03
Speaker
other people I work with who don't have degrees. And I'd say most of them probably do. But also some of them got their degrees 20, 30 years ago. So the technology has changed so much, it's not like the degree itself has mattered. But they've also spent time in the industry. Sure. Well, I'm glad you shared that because I think a lot of what you're trying to say is,
00:19:29
Speaker
You just need to be able to do the job. And just because you have a degree or not is necessarily determined if you're going to do well in this job. Yeah, 100%. And it's funny, I told you a story about a recruiter reaching out to me who spent 45 minutes on the phone with me telling me I'm never going to get a job and I should just go back to school and get my degree. And then I was like, well, I'm going to put you through to the interview anyway. And it was like, thanks for the confidence boost there.
00:19:59
Speaker
You know, it's funny, it kind of strengthened my resolve. So I guess I would just have to say thank you. Yeah. And that's one person's opinion. I would imagine if 10 recruiters were constantly saying you need a degree, that might say something. But if it was just one, but then he also put you through. So if you really weren't a good fit, he wouldn't have.
00:20:20
Speaker
which is kind of crazy, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was having this conversation with someone who was holding themselves back because they didn't have a degree, but they finished the springboard course. And I was just thinking, knowing what I went through in fashion design, I really didn't need a degree to do what I did in fashion design. What I did in my job was so much more
00:20:48
Speaker
it had nothing really to do with what I did in school. So that's why I was saying don't limit yourself because what, at least from my experience in the UX program, that is what I'm doing now. Plus a lot of other bureaucratic type stuff, but it's authentic and I don't really think a degree is going to change your talents. No, it's
00:21:14
Speaker
You know, some of the guys I work with are pretty fresh graduates and, uh, one of them was telling me is like, I mean, he's like, yeah, I don't, I don't use half the stuff I learned.
Effective Job-Hunting Strategies
00:21:27
Speaker
We're most of it anyway. And he's doing really well, but it's also because he, he has the passion and he's learned things outside of his course. You know, like he's, he's, it goes back to that continuous learning and just like the drive to learn more and to do more. And I'd say.
00:21:43
Speaker
in both college and springboard, these are just tools to help, they're to equip you to do better, but like you still need to be the one to drive. I mean, like I was thinking about it the other day, that a springboard like in, in gymnastics, it doesn't launch you to the moon. It amplifies how hard you jump on it. And I think it's a, so it's a pretty, it's a pretty fitting title for these, for these boot camps that, you know, it's, you're going to get out of it what you put into it.
00:22:13
Speaker
I agree. And it's a very poetic way to put it too. So you using the springboard literally literally and figuratively, but you didn't let anything hold you back, which I admire. I
00:22:30
Speaker
I'm wondering, you're starting this job, Hyun. We already talked about that recruiter who told you for 45 minutes that you needed to get a degree. Obviously, you should email that recruiter and tell him that he was wrong, or maybe not. I don't know. I don't actually don't even think I, I think I unfollowed her on LinkedIn immediately. I was like, you're not the energy I need in my corner right now, so. No, but let's talk about the rest of your job, Hyun. What was that experience like for you? Yeah. So, um,
00:22:59
Speaker
So I will say I've met plenty of recruiters who have like super high end positive energy. Um, a couple of them that I've had conversations with who, who were like, I don't know if you're going to fit this role, but like, you've got a great attitude, keep at it and you're going to get something. Uh, let's talk again in two years. And like, you know, that's the other thing is you're, you're making connections. And I think I talked about this when you're reaching out to people at companies, like you say you apply to a company.
00:23:29
Speaker
and you're looking through the employees list and you're like, oh, I want to talk to maybe another engineer or a design lead, or I want to reach out to the hiring manager. You want to make an authentic connection. You don't want to just, hello, can you please give me a job? That's what they're getting from anybody who does the same thing. You want to talk to them. And I had this, I think I told you about this, we had some interns.
00:23:58
Speaker
Uh, we, my company's just big enough now to have some interns. Um, and when the position opened up, I had a couple of people reach out to me and as a matter of practice, I don't recommend anyone. I don't know well enough or haven't worked with. And I said this to all of them and, uh, most of them were like, okay, thank you. And one of them. And I was, but I always ended with like, if there's anything else I can help you with, let me know.
00:24:25
Speaker
And one of them was like, yeah, so what's it like working at the company? What did you do to get hired? They started talking to me. And it was, it's funny, I still didn't wind up recommending them, but they pointed out something I hadn't realized, which is that I didn't know them. So they got to know me and not only start to know them. And like I was saying, you wanna develop authentic connections. Some of the recruiters that I've talked to before,
00:24:54
Speaker
when I think I'm ready for my next career move, I'm gonna reach out to him. I'm gonna be like, hey, you know, like there's one that I had a great conversation with right as I was getting hired. And she was like, it's a shame you got snapped up. Let's talk again. And I remember her name and I'm gonna, I like, I want to keep wanting to reach out and just be like, hey, you know, like how's your summer going? Because it's about being your authentic self. When you're applying to really stand out,
00:25:22
Speaker
You got to be your authentic self. Everyone's coming out of these boot camps with, you talked about this with somebody else, with cookie cutter projects. When I did my Keystone projects, I thought they were original and they were not. I had to do things to try to make them original, but if you had held up mine next to somebody else's here like two years later, I might be able to tell you which one was mine.
00:25:51
Speaker
because I tried to do one or two little things that were completely different. But everyone's coming out with these same projects. You got to do something to stand out. And that is the extracurriculars. It's participating in hackathons. But it's being your authentic self and selling your authentic self. Because you are. You're selling yourself to the company. You're like, hey, you want me. You want to hire me. You want to pay for my time. So show them who you are. Show them who you are and why they should hire you.
00:26:21
Speaker
I completely agree. So I'm curious when you were hunting for this job, all these jobs, what were some of the things you did to be authentic to yourself? So as I said before, I was taking two approaches. I was taking like the shotgun approach and like the sniper approach. And the shotgun approach was like I had a very generic cover letter and a very generic resume. And I was applying to like five to 10 jobs a day that I barely read, like as long as it
00:26:50
Speaker
As long as it wasn't requiring five or more years of experience and it had most of the frameworks that I were familiar with, I was applying to the job. And I got a couple of callbacks from that, but I got about just as many callbacks from the sniper approach I call it, which is I would find a company I really like. I'd like, man, I get it. I align with this company.
00:27:14
Speaker
and I would write a personalized cover letter. I would try to find out if I could who the hiring manager was and I would address the cover letter to them. I would reach out to them. I'd reach out to the team and just ask them. And as I was saying before, try to initiate conversations, like find something in common. Like, hey, I see you're a disc golfer. I like the disc golf too. It's like, it's a fun thing. Or I see you're a hiker. Do you know any of any good trails in the area? And try to,
00:27:44
Speaker
Try to reach out to a person, not an employee to a prospective employer, but from like a person to a person. Yeah. And perhaps not go right into the big ask of, can I get a job here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I never even asked that question when I was reaching out. Like I wouldn't be like, Hey, can I get a job here?
00:28:07
Speaker
Like at some point I would inevitably say, I applied to this company and I'm just curious about it and I'm asking around, but I was never like, can you put in a good word for me? It was like, I'm just, I just want to talk to you. I think that's completely reasonable. You already did the legwork of applying and there's nothing wrong with saying, Hey, I'm interested in this company. I want to learn about it. It's when you want someone to really do something for you, like stick their arm out for you. Someone you don't know.
00:28:35
Speaker
That's what still shocks me today is I'll still get messages saying, hey, I see you work at Verizon. That's so cool. Are they hiring? First of all, your job portal, I don't know. I don't know you. I'm not going to refer somebody with my name attached. That's not something I'm comfortable with. Also, if I do get someone that I'm really excited about, I want to back them up.
00:29:04
Speaker
and know that I won't be embarrassed by someone. Yeah. And you also, you know, you, you want any recommendation you have to have a little sway. If you're doling them out left and right, that doesn't mean very much. So like, but I think it's mostly that like, these people don't know you. So give them a chance to know you before you ask if you're going to. But, but honestly, don't ask. Kind of,
00:29:35
Speaker
Part of it is you're reaching out to them. Like in the way I've viewed it is I'm reaching out to them. People reach out on LinkedIn all the time, make connections. If I mentioned that I've applied, it's kind of implicit that like I'm reaching out to you because you work at this company. So I'm going to leave it on your judgment if you want to help me out or not. I don't need to ask you outright. It's tacky. It's gaudy. You force people to say no and try to be,
00:30:05
Speaker
very nice to you about it, it's okay. Just have the conversation and just be yourself. And if they like you, they're gonna stick their arm or their neck out for you or whatever it is. I agree. I'd like to go back to that one person who was applying to the internship that took a step back when you said, I don't know you, I'm not referring someone I don't know. And then he actually did take the time to get to know you,
00:30:36
Speaker
I love, like he was being a little aggressive, a little demanding, but then when you set your boundaries, he really, I'm guessing this is a guy. It could be a girl. Actually, no, this one was, this one was a she.
00:30:52
Speaker
Well, good work, girls. I'm guessing like I don't I don't know. Like, yeah. Well, let's just say this person, this person, this person really took a step back, corrected their behavior. And I really love that. I think that speaks a lot to their people skills and their empathy and just reading the room. So I know you said that you didn't end up
00:31:19
Speaker
referring them, what happened with that interaction? What could have gone better? What just made them more referable? Sorry, what made them what? Not referable. Not referable. Honestly, it came down to the, I just don't know you that well. I kind of take referrals seriously. When I want to talk about somebody,
00:31:47
Speaker
I want to be able to actually talk about them, not things that are written on a paper. I want to be able to talk about who they are. And again, for me, it's more about the person and who you are, which I did get a glimpse into who they were because we had some conversation. It kind of petered out. It kind of died off, which is expected. We're both living busy lives and I'm not on social media that often anyway, so it's hard to keep a conversation going. But I want to be able to recommend the person because
00:32:17
Speaker
If you say you've got this, that, and this, these kind of skills, it's going to come to light when you do a technical interview, whether or not you actually know what you're talking about. But you have to work with these people every day. Sometimes you work with them directly every day. And this was something I was talking about when I was saying in my applications, when I was interviewing with people,
00:32:44
Speaker
the same goes for when you're applying and you get an interview, you have to work with these people. So ask them questions. Ask them questions like you already worked there. Not like, when do I start? Which might be a bold move. I wouldn't say 100% don't do that. But ask them, what's the day-to-day like? Are there good people that you work with?
00:33:12
Speaker
Ask them questions that make them talk about a stressful time they encountered. And you can also pick out some red flags in there if they're talking about, oh, well, every day is a stressor. And you're like, maybe for your mental health, that's not the job for you. Or maybe it is. Maybe you thrive in that kind of pressure. But ask questions in your interview. Get to know these people. Because when it comes down to it,
00:33:37
Speaker
until AI takes over all of our jobs. Stop it. We got plenty of time before that happens. But until that happens, you're dealing with people. And that's what we are in the world. Everyone you interact with is a person. They've got their own story. They've got their own complexities, their skills, and their weaknesses. So get to know these people.
00:34:07
Speaker
And that's just maybe the bartender in me. That makes a lot of sense. And then that really does. And I remember you were saying there was one interview you went on where you did catch a red flag. Oh yeah. So that was the, that was the 45 minute, you're never gonna, you're never, that interview she put, she put me into, I liked the people I talked to, but, um, it was,
00:34:35
Speaker
I think it was, it's TriMet, which is New York, uh, Portland's like NYC Metro. Uh, it's our public public transportation division. And there was like seven or eight people on their team. And I was meeting with four of them and, uh, the interview went really well. I didn't get an offer so that it's not like I turned it down, but I did catch a red flag and that was, I asked like, you know, name, name a time that something went wrong and how it was handled and the,
00:35:05
Speaker
I guess the kind of the boss was like, ah, Joe, you want to take this one? And Joe kind of like was like, yeah, yeah. Looked down and kind of went. And he was like, yeah, that one was all on me. OK. And he starts describing this time. And it was reading between the lines, because what had happened is something that happens. But it was the fact that he immediately knew what he was talking about. His eyes went down. He was kind of like tail between his legs. And it was like, this guy really got beat up over this.
00:35:36
Speaker
So much so that unless this happened yesterday and they're making an inside joke, I don't know about, this is still a thing. And I was like, yeah, I don't know if I want to work under that. That's kind of scary. And the fact that his boss was like, Joe, you take this. That's a horrible thing for a manager to do. That's very demeaning. Yeah, it was all kind of like, laffy, ha, ha, ha. But the undertone was that it wasn't very laffy.
00:36:06
Speaker
And it was a big tell. It was a big tell. Yeah, especially because that manager would probably treat you that way. Yeah, if something like that had happened, it's very possible that that would have happened to me as somebody new. And again, it was probably for the best. They're working with SQL databases that are like millions of lines or millions of rows long in tables, which I know you don't understand. But in software engineering,
00:36:36
Speaker
somebody who's taking the course would understand. So it's like, yeah, you dropped the wrong table and like, you know, maybe years of data could get lost. So like, probably better. I didn't, I didn't get that job anyway, but, but also this is your, your, this is your opportunity. This is your time with them. Ask, ask questions that are going to, that are things you want to know about. Obviously you want to know what the pay is, but you'll get there.
00:37:05
Speaker
And I always kind of had a smart alloc answer when they're like, well, how much would you like to make? I wouldn't recommend doing this all the time. In fact, I'm probably not a great idea, but I'd be like, I'd like to make a million dollars an hour, but that's probably not going to happen. So we'll talk about it later. Because in the negotiations, you do want to kind of hold your hand. Unfortunately, they are kind of holding all the cards, you know, they can just sit. Well, I guess they're supposed to post salary ranges now, but I've seen people post
00:37:35
Speaker
$2 to 2 million or, and you're like, yeah, that's, you're, you're, you're in the letter of the law, but you're violating the spirit of it a hundred percent. I would record that job listing. Yeah. Yeah. I, I just, it's like, if that's, if that's, it's another clue, I don't want to apply there. I don't want to work there. Yeah. If they're going to pay you slave wages, that's terrible. Or be deceitful about information. Like I don't.
00:38:04
Speaker
I don't really want that. No, thanks. I'm okay. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the job you did get.
Landing a Job in Energy Storage Systems
00:38:10
Speaker
You are working for power and energy. I am not repeating exactly what you were- Battery energy storage systems has an acronym. It's BESS. You can just call it BESS systems, but yeah. You could have put that in your bio. No, I'm just kidding. Well, I figured if I put that in my bio and you were like, BESS systems, everybody would be like, who's BESS?
00:38:32
Speaker
I do love how that acronym worked out though. Yeah. Anyways, okay. It's the best. Let's talk about how you got this first job that you're still in. So this one I actually, I kind of lucked into. I had, we're all familiar with the recruiters who reach out and then ghost you after you send them their resume. This happens to everyone or the ones that like respond once or twice. This one was an internal to the company.
00:39:00
Speaker
where they had hired on, I guess, these talent acquisition specialists. And she reached out to me, even though my level experience was a little lower, because I had Java in my profile, because I had taken quite an extensive course on it and learned quite a lot about it. Java isn't offered in Springboard's software engineering track.
00:39:28
Speaker
So I kind of lucked out in that respect. And then I lucked out in that we had a discussion and she was like, when we first talked, she was like, asked me, she's like, have you heard of this company, Powen? I was like, no, what are they doing? She told me and she was like, well, now I definitely want to look them up. Oh my God. And I just immediately was excited because as I mentioned before, like, energy storage has been on my mind for a while in order to really realize sustainability. So she's like, okay.
00:39:58
Speaker
Well, let's talk again soon. And we talked, I think, two days later. And she asked me some screener Java questions, which I had most of the right answers for. I don't want to name her. She let me look up one of the answers. And I was like, OK, cool. But I think it was my personality and my excitement and my enthusiasm. So she put me through the same.
00:40:28
Speaker
Excitement and enthusiasm and me just being personable and myself being my authentic self really I think carried me through because they were hiring for I think the title was Java developer, but they hired offered me a position as a Java developer junior Which wasn't something they were even in in like looking for maybe they
00:40:54
Speaker
We're like, we'll give this guy a chance. Or maybe they were like, we could probably pay this guy less money. Who knows? But either way, it was my end to a great company with great people. And I think part of it was, again, my enthusiasm. It aligned with my personal goals and what I really want. And so I did get lucky in many ways. But I think what carried me through to the end was me really believing in what I was doing.
00:41:23
Speaker
really believe in what you're doing because you believe it's going to buy you a nice house and you believe it's going to buy you a nice car. But the work you're doing should also kind of be important to you. If you don't align with it at least somewhat, it's really hard to keep doing it day in and day out.
00:41:45
Speaker
evidence that goes behind the believing. It sounds like you were getting a lot of interviews, you were getting a lot of people reaching out to you. So clearly, you were presenting yourself and doing something right. So I feel like that probably helped that believing on top of just enjoying the work and just being really excited about the job in itself. I also want to just a little note, I don't want to make it seem like I was getting reached out to on the daily. It was it was not I was I was lucky in that I was only in the job search market for
00:42:16
Speaker
for about two months. Wow. Yeah. Okay. But my, but again, my, my ratios were pretty good. Like I think I had in that time, in the two months I'd put out like using the shotgun method, I think I'd put out, I don't know, I still, I didn't track those ones as well, but I think I'd put out like, like 200 applications or something. And using the sniper method as I was talking about, like I, I had put out a probably 20
00:42:43
Speaker
applications to companies where I had really put in time and effort. And like, from those companies, I got three or four callbacks, like for interviews. So my ratio, and from what I've heard of other people in the job search market, that's
00:43:00
Speaker
That's pretty good. Yeah, it's not bad. Those numbers sound pretty good to me without knowing a lot of context. So especially in 2022, which I feel like that's when a lot of the companies were laying people off. Granted, I don't know how bad software engineering was affected, but still at during that time, I feel like tech wasn't or wait, am I getting my years mixed up? Was that 2023?
00:43:26
Speaker
So, and this is what also, this is what we also talked about though. It's like, I think this is kind of the new ebb and flow of tech is that like, you know, the January of 22, they're going to hire a bunch of people on and see how it goes. And then like, you know, November of 24, they're like, Ooh, we need to really trim the fat. So they're going to lay off a bunch of people. And it's, we hear about them. It seems like every year we hear about like, or a quarter we hear about like these, these mass layoffs.
00:43:56
Speaker
But they're coming from different companies. And even though the numbers are big, if Google lays off 10,000 people, that might only be like 7% of their workforce. I'm making these numbers up, by the way. Do not fact check me on them. But when you realize it's like 7% of people, that's a lot. But there's 93% of people who are maintaining their jobs. So as long as you're performing well,
00:44:24
Speaker
you don't have too much to worry about. Other than maybe being the new guy, the low man on the totem pole, that I've seen people posting about that. And it's a real shame when you get hired on and before you've even ramped up, you're in the mass.
00:44:40
Speaker
letting go. When do we stop saying firing, by the way? When do we stop firing people and start letting everyone go? Is that a PC thing? I thought we could still say fired, but I thought fired was more like you did something really wrong. Like you. Oh, okay. Is that what it is? Stole money. I thought fired or like terminated is probably the more correct term. Terminating, yes. And then the food off is more like we just don't need your services anymore, but you're not necessarily a bad employee.
00:45:10
Speaker
question I got. I think it does legally have something to do with that. We're terminating your position, not you. We're eliminating your position. We're not terminating you. And it's like, yeah, but when you're eliminating so many positions all the time, what's really going on here? I think this is just part of the new norm, and it's kind of
00:45:39
Speaker
It is scary to hear about, especially my wife just got laid off. Her company got bought out and they didn't need her. They had plenty of, I guess, UX, you had design people on board already. So it's scary to hear about, but it's not, I don't think it's the apocalyptic disaster that kind of the news hypes it up to be sometimes.
00:46:07
Speaker
I agree. I think there's a lot more context of things. I think also with interest rates being really high, it's more expensive to hire people. So there's just that. I know from talking to other people in the industry that we do need more help.
Navigating Tech Industry Challenges
00:46:23
Speaker
We're all working around, not around the clock, but we're working enough to where we could pass off some work to some new people. So believe me, we do need new fresh talent.
00:46:35
Speaker
It might just not be for a while. Yeah. And that's, we could get into a whole other discussion about core. More podcasts. Yeah, that's a whole different podcast. That's not this one. But it's a very real topic. It's something that people are dealing with now. And it's tough when you're feeling vulnerable or you're maybe in a bit of a difficult place and you need your job. Savings is running low.
00:47:05
Speaker
It's very hard to not take it personally, though. Of course. And I don't mean to diminish anyone's experiences or what they've gone through. I have been fortunate. I have not gotten, not been one of those. And I can't imagine what it would feel like if I was. I'd be pretty destroyed. But I think when you're in the job market searching, yes, it's
00:47:35
Speaker
It's like, oh, more competition for you.
00:47:39
Speaker
Yes, but at the same time, I feel like you've set a lot of good safety nets in place. You said you had a couple of recruiters that you'd absolutely reach out to, and I'm sure they'd be delighted that you did, if you were in that position. Yeah. I was having this conversation with a good friend of mine who went to business school, and I always have that fear of getting laid off. I don't think anybody never fears that. Right. But she was just saying, you have other things in place. You have other projects going.
00:48:07
Speaker
And I really think those that just rest on their laurels and don't continue to grow, don't look into side projects or have other ventures or keep up with a little bit of networking. I feel like those people are going to have a bit of a harder time. Yeah. There's a, there's a short story called who moved my cheese, which I've mentioned before. And if you haven't read it, you should go read it. It's not very long and it's about.
00:48:34
Speaker
kind of always keeping an eye towards the next thing because things are ever changing. And yeah, I continue, I maintain both, maintain this thought and maintain the relationships with some of the people that I've met on LinkedIn. Yeah, I've got like, I think 600 people that I'm connected with. I don't know all of, a lot of them actually,
00:49:01
Speaker
you reach out, you connect with somebody, maybe you'll talk, maybe you won't, then you never think to go back and unconnect with them, why would you? But there's a couple of people I did meet that I feel like I've developed some rapport with. And it's that authentic connection again. It's really reaching out. And yes, work on a side project. Do something for yourself. It's kind of hard. My GitHub when I was,
00:49:27
Speaker
pre-course and in the course was a sea of green. And now I think I've committed to it twice in three years or five times in three years, twice, two years that I've been working at Palin because it's just, I'm busy with, with other things. Uh, and I also recently had a kid and bought a house. So I'm just very much in the like, Ooh, a million things going on at once. Okay. So you can be a dad, a homeowner and work on three other side effects.
00:49:54
Speaker
I probably could if I really set my mind to it, but I think I need to breathe, eat, and sleep somewhere in there. I'm completely kidding. I know. It sounds like you have some other things going, but I think it's just that attitude. I was talking to a lovely person who owns her own design agency and just talking to her about how she got into freelance work and is now a business owner in that area.
00:50:23
Speaker
She just always had really good connections and she put out good work so people would consistently come back to her. And I think that's just the key to a lot of things is even if you aren't working on your GitHub all the time, at least it's something you can come back to. It's something that you've put energy into.
00:50:44
Speaker
you can take a break and come back. Same with the professional relationships you've had. I don't talk to some people every single day, but I'm sure if I came back to them just saying, Hey, I'm, you know, have time for a side project, what's going on? They might know someone you never know. So when I was, when I was first job hunting, uh, one of my friends who owned a business was like, Hey, I've got a couple ideas maybe we could work on. And, um,
00:51:12
Speaker
One of them was, I was like, this is a great idea. It'd be a pretty large undertaking, but I think we could do it. And I didn't wind up doing it solely because when he brought it up to me was about two weeks before I got hired. He had brought it up to me and I was like, yeah, totally. Let's talk more about this. And this leads back into what I was saying, you never know
00:51:40
Speaker
when later down the line or for what people might need you or think of you. That's the other thing is you want people to think of you. Like, oh man, my uncle's business needs a new website. Oh, that Casey guy, he does something with websites. Let me see if he could put one together because you've made friends with him, not because you've said, hello, do you have work for me? Exactly, exactly. That's the key to it. That is the key to it.
00:52:10
Speaker
Yeah. Well, with that being said, what's your current job like? What's your day in and day out? I know you're not coding eight hours a day. What's, what's that other 70% of the time like? So about 20% of it is cursing at my, no, I'm kidding. I'm joking. There is, there is, there is like, there is a good amount of
00:52:37
Speaker
It varies and I am in the mid-level position. So I do, that is the bulk of my job, but I have meetings about upcoming projects. I have meetings about current projects where I need to get some clarifications or we need to redesign something. There's researching different applications and tools. And even when you're working
00:53:06
Speaker
by yourself on the project, there's a certain amount of time spent thinking about what you're doing before you actually implement it. You might jump in and start skeleton coding something, getting a little idea of it together, and then realize, actually, it'd be better if I did it this way. Refactoring happens all the time. But my day in and day out,
00:53:33
Speaker
I'm checking my emails, I'm connecting to people on Slack, I'm answering questions about projects I worked on months ago and projects I'm working on now. And also my company is, even though we're six years old and deal with hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts a year, we're still technically a mid to late stage startup. So we're still figuring out our processes and still
00:53:58
Speaker
still figuring out our processes. We're still trying new things on, upgrading from older technologies that things were built on. So it's updating my system, changing my configurations, doing this. There's a lot. There's a lot that goes into it. That is a lot. Well, is there anything that we didn't get to talk about today that you'd like to share?
00:54:28
Speaker
Let's see. We talked about getting out of things which you put into them, because that's really the biggest ticket. I think you really need to be willing to put in effort. Oh, and I guess the one thing maybe to mention is that Springboard is a full-time job.
Commitment to Career Transition Programs
00:54:52
Speaker
These boot camps are a full-time job. I was fortunate that, like,
00:54:57
Speaker
I didn't have to actually be working while I did them because I was working when my wife did hers and then she was working when I did mine. If you're going to work a job to support yourself while you're going to springboard, you want to kiss your social life goodbye for a while because you have to put effort into it. It takes time. I was watching videos at
00:55:26
Speaker
two times speed to get through them faster so that I had more time to do the work itself. And I still took me about 10 months, 11 months to complete. So yeah, it's just, it is a commitment. It's worth it if you're into it and you're really, if you just do the work, if you test it out a little first, kind of like I did and you find that you like it and it's for you, it's worth it. But,
00:55:53
Speaker
It's not the golden ticket you have to put in the effort yourself. Yes. True words, I have no notes to add. Well, with that being said, with you achieving all of this, where do you see yourself going next?
Future Career Aspirations in Energy Sector
00:56:11
Speaker
Where do I see myself going next? I really do like working in the energy sector and I'm probably going to, I'll stick with this company for a while at least, I think.
00:56:22
Speaker
along the lines of the, you know, don't rest on your laurels. I'm always looking around kind of just always seeing what's out there. But I think given my background of service industry background I had where I had some managerial experience, I'm probably never gonna be the ninja coder. So I would be looking more towards either management or architecture because once you hit
00:56:51
Speaker
Once you get into the role, there's a couple of paths you can take. And those are like management and architecture are kind of similar. And then there's like staff level engineers who are the people who are like subject matter experts. And they're the ones who just know everything and can do anything and can point you to the right place in the code. And I don't think I'm ever gonna quite hit that level, but yeah. I don't know where I'm gonna go next. And I kind of like that sometimes.
00:57:19
Speaker
I think that's okay, but at least you have some ideas, right? And it sounds like just with this constant learning that will come to you kind of like how software engineering and coding came back into your life. I think it's important to not force yourself to make that decision. I know I was trying to for a while and then when I stopped and just started focusing on the work and learning, things got a lot easier and a lot more fun. Yeah. Sometimes when you,
00:57:49
Speaker
If you're trying for something and you stop and give yourself a moment, things will just work themselves out. I agree. I agree. Yeah. I think with your career, it's about putting a lot of energy and attention into it, but you can't time the results. No, no, it's I am ascribed to the view that everything in life is very much a flow. So.
00:58:16
Speaker
You just got to catch the right rhythm and try to stay in the flow as long as you can. Yes, I completely agree. And since we are coming up on time, would you be interested in any of the listeners connecting with you on social media? Yes, I am open to you reaching out to me on LinkedIn. I'm not really on many other social medias. I have accounts, but I don't really use them. So if you'd like to connect to me on LinkedIn, you can
00:58:45
Speaker
LinkedIn slash in slash C-W, Verica, B as in Victor, E-R-I-C-A, or you can just look up my name, which is Casey, C-A-S-E-Y, and then the last name, B-E-R-I-C-A. Fantastic. And I'm sure a lot of people would love to connect with you to just learn about
00:59:08
Speaker
networking and how you got to where you are because you have an incredible story and I'm so excited to have gone so you talked to about it today. And for anyone listening, if you have any questions for Casey or myself that could be answered on a future episode, please email me at LMI podcast at springboard.com.