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Opera Singer to Data Science
30 Plays8 months ago
Sid currently serves as a Senior Visualization Engineer at Cencora, where he holds a technical leadership role in Power BI development and crafts analytics solutions for Cencora’s pharmaceutical clients.
In the fall of 2020, Sid completed the Springboard program, earning a certificate in Data Science. Prior to transitioning into data visualization, he spent 10 years as a professional opera singer.
Sid discusses feeling initially intimidated as the sole musician in his program but highlights how his years of auditioning provided him with "an edge" during the job search. Moreover, he provides insights into effective networking strategies, breaking down both successful and unsuccessful approaches.
If you have any questions for Sid or the host that could be answered on a future episode, please email me at [email protected].
Interested in finally taking the plunge by starting your career in tech? How does $1500 off a Springboard Career Track Course sound?
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Transcript
Introduction to Sid's Unique Career Path
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another Wednesday, which means another episode of Life After Tech Bootcamp. I'm really excited to talk to today's guest because
00:00:24
Speaker
His background to me personally is something that I know nothing about. And I'm sure that despite me being new to somebody with his career path, others here might actually find a lot of similarities. So really excited to introduce to you today, Sid.
00:00:47
Speaker
Sid, in the fall of 2020, graduated from the springboard program with a certificate in data science for embarking on a career in data visualization. He worked for 10 years as a professional opera singer. Currently, he is a senior visualization engineer at Sancora, where he is a technical lead in Power BI development and creates analytics solutions for Sancora's pharmaceutical clients.
00:01:16
Speaker
In addition to his work with Sankora, Sid continues to sing professionally and volunteers with the American Red Cross and Providence Animal Center. Sid, welcome to the podcast. How are you today? I'm doing just fine. How are you doing? Fantastic. I'm so excited for you because you just, before we started recording, told me that you started a new job within your company.
Overcoming Challenges in Data Science Transition
00:01:39
Speaker
So tell me what happened there. Yeah. So, um, when I started at Sankora,
00:01:46
Speaker
Um, the, the, the role is listed as data visualization specialist. So I was like, okay, I kind of went into my job search with a little bit of power BI background and I have this certificate in data science, but you know, something I was always kind of hesitant about because I have a non-technical career background was, well, is anyone really going to take me seriously as a data scientist?
00:02:12
Speaker
if I've never worked in data science or worked in machine learning or worked in AI or anything like that. So I said, okay, maybe I'll start as an analyst. Maybe I'll work on building Power BI reports, because I have some experience there. And maybe if I want to, I can then morph into being a machine learning engineer or something like that, if that's what the cards have. So I started in this role, data visualization specialist, and I show up for my first day, and I was like, great, what are we visualizing?
00:02:42
Speaker
They're like, well, you know, it's really more of a BA role, BA being business analyst. And I was like, Oh, okay. So I was trying to figure out what a BA does. And then I was like, Oh, well, you gather a lot of requirements and you give them to data engineers and you write lots of user stories and you try to identify like, you know, how to deliver solutions when the stakeholders having a given problem. And you have to try to figure out, you know, what the, what the problem is. And I was like, Oh, do we fix the problem? Oh, no, there's a data engineer that probably does that or something like that. So I was like, Oh, okay. So I was like, well,
00:03:08
Speaker
not really a lot of visualization. And I am a specialist. And so I was like, trying to sort of suss this out. And that's where I think I after a little while, you know, a few years, I said, Well, you know what, I really enjoy working in Power BI. And I had gotten a lot of some chances, you know, in my in that role to kind of excel in that area. And I had come in with some experience. And I was really sort of fascinated with that technology and platform. And I could see that Microsoft was
00:03:38
Speaker
you know, really leaning heavily on this being kind of a way forward, I think, for a lot of Microsoft customers. So I was like, you know what, I really want to be really good at this. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to, so I switched, you know, applied for a new role. And this role was, you know, a visualization engineer, power BI lead. And I was nervous about it. You know, I was like, well, you know, really shy. I was lucky enough to get my first job. Like, can I really,
00:04:06
Speaker
expect that I'm going to get. But I thought, well, if I don't get it, at the end of the day, I have my old job. And that's that. And no harm, no foul. But they liked, I did well in the interview and all that. And so that's where I am now. I'm a senior visualization engineer or basically, you could say, a Power BI developer or a Power BI lead. And I kind of really work and focus in that area now.
00:04:32
Speaker
Very cool. Well, yeah, that is very exciting. And I wonder what was that like applying internally?
Navigating Internal Role Changes at Sancora
00:04:40
Speaker
Were you able to talk to your boss about this? Um, I think sometimes it's awkward trying to switch out of a team. Like will your manager support you? Put in a good word. I'd be intimidated. Yeah. So it's interesting. I, let's see. So,
00:05:01
Speaker
The first thing I noticed, so I started at, the company was then called Amerisource Bergen. So I started at Amerisource. And within a year, someone had reached out to me and said, hey, I see you have a data science background. We have an opening for a junior data scientist. And I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. Now we have some policies, though, about when you can switch, how quickly you can move into a new role, and so forth.
00:05:28
Speaker
one such policy is you have to notify your manager if you're applying. So, you know, I just, in hindsight, I would say almost naively, I just went to my manager and I said, well, you know, I'm thinking of applying for this new job. And she's like, well, you've been here about 11 months. And she said, you kind of have to be here 12 months in order to apply for a new job. And I said, well, I think I'll be, it'll be 12 months, you know, two weeks from now. So I'll apply then. And she was like, okay. And and then she was like, and so she, um,
00:05:54
Speaker
unbeknownst to me, she was like, I don't really think you're ready to do this. Yeah. I mean, she did tell me that, but, uh, basically I didn't hear about that job again, you know? And I was like, Oh, okay. So can't just kind of like run around and do your own thing. So then, you know, another year and a half past, and I was still kind of thinking about maybe where I wanted to go next. And there, you know, there were some things I thought I might do really well in and power BI was one of them. So the second pass around, I kind of did it a little bit differently where I.
00:06:24
Speaker
told my manager as I was applying to say I need to let you know that I have applied for this job and that was a kind of different move and I think that at first she was surprised but I think ultimately was happy for me when you know she saw that I was I was offered this position. That's great and I think that speaks to her EQ in the sense that managers should want to see you move forward and
00:06:49
Speaker
take on roles that you're interested in. People change. People have ideas for their future. And it's not always in the exact same position for 20 years. So again, congratulations. That's really exciting. And we're going to dive more into that later. But I'd love to hear what was going on before you got into this company, into studying data science. You were an opera singer. What was going on?
00:07:18
Speaker
Yeah, so I went to my educational background is largely in music performance, specifically vocal performance, specifically opera. For my college degree, my graduate degree, most of my professional training immediately out of school. I would say through most of my 20s, that's how I was supporting myself.
00:07:45
Speaker
I got to, I would say a point with singing where, you know, I kind of looked at the road ahead of me and how personally challenging it would be. You know, it's something that I don't think maybe people who are outside of the industry necessarily get a lot of exposure to is just how personally difficult it can be to try to have, um, let's say any flexibility in your lifestyle.
00:08:13
Speaker
you know, when your job dictates where you are, what you eat, how healthy you are, when you see your family, when you can travel for holidays, how much money you make, how much you have to work, what days you can take off. Like all of that is kind of dictated to you. And with that lack of flexibility, you either have to kind of take it or leave it because it's such a competitive industry. And there's usually someone that's willing to make all those sacrifices to take that role or that contract.
00:08:43
Speaker
So when I saw that road, I was like, you know what? I don't see how I'm going to do this for years upon years. It's almost like you climb to the top of the mountain, and then you look out over the horizon, and you expect to see this beautiful sunset, but it's raining. And so then you just have to accept that and decide what you want to do from that point moving forward. And so for me, I climbed down the mountain, and I decided to go look for another mountain.
00:09:12
Speaker
I started working in artistic administration. I was working for the local opera house. I was working in their CRM system and I was handling tickets and contributions and a lot of transactional information. And they were just starting to build actually some Power BI reports. And I was like, well, that's interesting. And I tried to like mess around with it a little bit, but didn't really know what I was doing. And I was always kind of curious about the CRM and I was like, you know, people run reports and they want to know like,
00:09:37
Speaker
how many customers did this, or how many ticket sales did that. And I was like, that all sounds kind of cool. And I'd like to figure out how to automate all of that.
From Opera to Data Science: Skills and Influences
00:09:45
Speaker
And I didn't know anything, though, about technical stuff. I kind of knew. I was like, there's a stuff called HTML and CSS, or Python. And I didn't know anything about any of it, though. And so then eventually, I was like, you know what? I want to know how to build those cool things that I keep reading about in Moneyball and stuff like that. And so then that's where I started to kind of dig. And I was like, oh, OK, so you have to like,
00:10:07
Speaker
learn how to code. And I was intimidated by that. But I was like, you know what? Just take it one day at a time and just see where it goes. And so I think I started with HTML, because I thought I might go into web development and CSS. And I was like, well, I don't really want to build websites. And then I started to get into Python. And I was like, well, this is kind of cool, because this is how you can take apart a data set and break it into pieces or figure out what's the mystery behind it all.
00:10:37
Speaker
So that's kind of how it got started. And then I think after about 18 months or so of some kind of self-taught coding, that's when I ended up at Springboard. I love that just natural self-discovery of this profession. It just, it sounds like such a right place, right time. And I love how
00:10:59
Speaker
the curiosity got the best of you. I'm so curious to know what when you just decided to start coding before even you wanted to enroll in springboard, what did you start to look at? Did you find courses online? What was what sort of started that? Yeah, I think
00:11:22
Speaker
Ah, there is one, what's the name of that website? There's something called something Ninja and I forget the name now. I might try to look it up at some point or see if I can find it, but, um, you know, I think I had, I had done some exercises on data camp. Um, I had, let's see what else I had. I had actually, I think I had tried to like put together my own little like machine learning project using some data from the opera house, like something around like, Hey, can we predict?
00:11:50
Speaker
how much to sell a given seat for or something like that. Like if the house is selling like this, maybe with this particular set of seats should be $95 instead of $85 or something along those lines. But again, like I didn't have kind of, wasn't smooth. It was all kind of clunky. So, and I, you know, my mom also actually, she's a database administrator. So I had like this kind of thing in the background where I was like, okay, like I know that like there are technical people around
00:12:20
Speaker
And I had talked with her a little bit about some of the database administration work she had done. At one point, I had even gone so far. This was well before any of this coding interest where I had built a little database in Microsoft Access so I could manage all my auditions. And I could see, oh, you've auditioned for this company three years ago. You sang these two arias. You sent them a recording. They didn't call you back. So I had this sense about me, but I just didn't know what to do with all of it. I was just like, oh, I guess this is just a way to know
00:12:50
Speaker
you know, to like remind myself that I should probably go sing for that opera house again, because it's been three years. And but like nothing more than that, you know, it was just like a means to an end. So it was like, honestly, it was like kind of a lot of fumbling around is kind of what I remember it as, you know, I love that just some fumbling around, but you know what, whatever works. Another thing I think was interesting that you said was it was really intimidating, like HTML, CSS,
00:13:18
Speaker
I can relate to that too because when I was thinking about getting into UX design, seeing people's portfolios that designed apps, that was just so far into me and that intimidated me. And then I got into the program and started to
00:13:36
Speaker
learn the tools to put designs together. I was like, oh, this actually isn't, it's, I'm not going to say UX design is easy, but it's not as hard as it was. So I'm curious to know how you felt when you finally took the plunge to say HTML, I'm going to learn you. Yeah. So, um, for me, I think I have this idea in my head where
00:14:00
Speaker
Um, because I had some work experience before I was moving into this career, I had, you know, worked as a musician. I had worked, you know, at, at the opera house, I had worked with CRMs a little bit. I wasn't like fresh out of college or anything that I had all these moments where. It kind of, there's this movie, um, came out a while back called slumdog millionaire. And it's about this really poor kid in India and that no one thinks he belongs on this game show. And throughout the movie, you keep seeing all these like, uh, what's the word flashbacks.
00:14:30
Speaker
to like different experiences he's had, which have sort of like prepared him for the moment that he's in now. And I sort of felt that way as I was like learning how to code or I was like, Oh, okay. Like I haven't learned Python before, but as a singer, like I've learned German, I've learned Italian, I've learned French, I've learned a little bit of Russian, I've learned diction, I've learned pronunciation, and it's not that different to learn a coding language versus like a spoken language. You just kind of have to get your head around the vocabulary and you kind of have to figure out the structure.
00:15:00
Speaker
And you take it one day at a time and you practice at it. So I was like, okay, like I kind of know what I'm doing here. I just have to kind of be patient about it. Just like I had to do so many other times, you know, and then, um, we started, uh, you know, so that's kind of how we first, I first got into like, okay, now I feel comfortable, like with the syntax, you know, so it's, it's not just so intimidating to just like be at a console.
00:15:24
Speaker
And then it was about like, okay, how do you say, for example, consider all your variables or all your features when you're trying to develop an algorithm? It's like, well, okay, let's think about this. Like I've been on an opera stage before and there is an orchestra and there might be a cello and a violin and a stage manager and a conductor and the lights and my costume and, uh, you know, the sound of the pit and my cue. And I have to come in on the end of beat two.
00:15:51
Speaker
So like, I've kind of been here before also and had to synthesize all of this before. It hasn't been put to me in these terms before, but like, I've had to track all those things before and figure out how they all fit together. So I can kind of take that same way of thinking and figure out, okay, which of these things actually contributes to, you know, an outcome in which are kind of, you know, let's say peripheral or which ones don't we need to consider, or maybe there's a way to measure how important each of these things are. So like those kinds of.
00:16:20
Speaker
like parallels sort of helped me kind of see that it didn't have to be more than it actually was. Yeah, I think that logic completely checks out. It sounds like you already knew how to learn, which is a skill in itself, like learning to learn.
00:16:41
Speaker
And I'll admit that was something I learned later in life. Like I was never, I was okay growing up in school, but until I got into my adult life and wanted to change my careers, I had to actually learn to learn to study for the GMAT and then learn to learn how to like, yeah. So I, does that sound like kind of right? Like you had to learn, you already knew how to learn. I think so. I think it, it,
00:17:10
Speaker
was definitely something, I mentioned this before, being a musician can be incredibly competitive. And one of the ways in which it can be is, let's say you have to learn music in a very short period of time. You might have a golden opportunity, but it's because someone fell sick and you have 48 hours to get ready for a performance for a piece you've never sung before. And you want to take it because it's the opportunity of a lifetime. And I've been in that situation before and I've learned that music before.
00:17:39
Speaker
And, uh, you know, that's how the strong kind of survive in, in, in the, you know, musicians game. So then you come over, you know, again, to having to be able to do that, but without the time pressure and without necessarily the, the, all of those conditions. And you're like, Oh, okay. Well, I can figure out how to take this apart. You know, I can take this one day at a time or one beat at a time. I remember actually there was a role I had to learn. I think I had like 10 days or something. Cause someone backed out.
00:18:05
Speaker
And it was a lead role. And it was like 120 pages of music. And I talked to my voice teacher about it at the time. He's like, you know what you do? You just break it up. You take how many days you have. You divide out the number of pages you have. And you learn that number of pages a day. That's all he told me. And I was like, OK, let's go. He's like, you take as much time as you need to do it. And so then when it was like, OK, you need to be able to deliver this data science project in three weeks. And I was like, OK, that means in three days I have to have this piece in place. And then four days I have to have this piece in place.
00:18:36
Speaker
And so then you just do it. I love that. I love that. Well, going forward, you decided to get more. Education. So you springboard. What was the program like for you? What do you think you learned that really helped you to get to where you are now? Yeah, I think that I was really nervous when I started because I, one of the first things I noticed was that no one else was like an artist.
Bootcamp Journey and Importance of Mentorship
00:19:02
Speaker
Within that data science cohort, might've been in other cohorts, but amongst the data scientists, I saw a lot of folks coming out of the sciences, physics, biology, stuff like that. They had worked in research labs. I saw some folks coming with an MBA or business background that were kind of trying to take a data analytics or business analyst type of approach. A lot of folks from quantitative places like math or comp sci or something like that that were kind of migrating their skills over. So I was like, okay, I'm way out in left field over here. And so I was like, oh,
00:19:31
Speaker
No one's going to trust me in this space because I don't have a math background. That was at least how I came into the program. And so that uneasiness led me to think, OK, the one thing that I don't want a potential employer to say is that I couldn't pass the technical interview or that I didn't have the technical aptitude for the role. If they want to say that I'm annoying or that I don't interview well or that I'm not personable,
00:20:01
Speaker
or that I don't have experience. I'll hold my hand up on any of those if they want to, because I think I can address those things. But I don't want to be the guy who doesn't know how to write code. And so that's how I kind of came into this boot camp experience. I was like, I'm going to do every exercise. I'm going to make sure I do every assignment. I'm going to be ahead of the rest of the class when they say, I'm in chapter four. I want to be at chapter five. And I want to make sure that I've done them all correctly.
00:20:30
Speaker
I want to check in with my mentor about how I'm doing on the technical work. And honestly, we like barely talked about it because I was like so vigilant about kind of leaving no stone unturned in that space. And the nice thing about kind of working, I think it's data camp that we were working on, the platform we were working with at the time, is that it's pretty self-evident when you're doing well and when you're not. Like if you're writing the correct functions and the right commands, like you get that immediate feedback.
00:21:00
Speaker
Um, I didn't have to work with my mentor a whole lot on like just being able to code. I could just look at the console and say like, okay, I'm struggling here. I'm not struggling here. I have to work on this piece. I have to not work on this piece. You know, and just stick with it. But again, I was like, I was very vigilant and like, I didn't just, I wasn't lackadaisical about what I felt was my weakest hand going into the program. And then, um,
00:21:28
Speaker
think one of the big things for me was that mentor relationship and that career coach relationship. I think both of those were like probably the most critical components because you know to be honest like I probably could have gone through the data camp curriculum myself if I really wanted to like be you know really diligent about it all. I probably could have done all those like you know career track blah blah that's offered over there but those relationships like you can't just make those up out of thin air.
00:21:55
Speaker
Um, and in fact, my mentor, he hired me into a startup that he was working with, uh, out of, uh, out of springboard. I only worked there for about six months or so. Um, and it was, you know, I would say it was kind of an informal arrangement of the work that I was doing. So that's why I wouldn't call it generally like a placement per se, but, um, it, that's the, that's the piece that I don't think could just be like, you know, automated away. Uh, and, um, yeah, so that that's where I felt like I.
00:22:25
Speaker
Uh, that was the most critical piece as I was starting to like go through the program was like those personal relationships and seeing, being able to like kind of talk about some of these insecurities that I was having and like some of these doubts that I was having and being able to kind of like square those away as opposed to like, can you tell me why my function doesn't work? Certainly. Yeah. I mean, it's both too, right? Like I know getting feedback in UX was super important.
00:22:52
Speaker
Um, but also like with my mentor, I very much told him like, you need to be really hard on me. I need to get a job. I can't just have check boxes checked off. You need to call me out on what I need to, what I'm not seeing. And he did that and it was really, really hard, but I appreciate how much effort he put into me. So I completely agree. And then I'm wondering, was there anything outside of the course that you did to prepare you?
00:23:22
Speaker
Um so outside of the course while in the course or like right after graduating or before? I would say anytime between starting the course and getting your job. Yeah so um I mentioned that I you know I kind of moved into this startup uh right out of springboard and uh I was really like interning more than anything and
00:23:47
Speaker
I was really working as a Power BI developer. I was carrying that skill set with me. I had all these other tools of like, okay, this is how you develop a KPI, or this is how you design a metric, or this is how you build a data model. That was some of the work that was coming out of some of the data science training that I was taking, especially when it came to being able to write custom, let's say,
00:24:15
Speaker
write Python or write in pandas if I needed to inside of Power BI. But I was mostly working in Power BI right out of Springboard. And so I think that leveraging that skill and kind of leaning in, at one point, I would say Power BI and Tableau, they're kind of the two primary reporting platforms. And so I saw there are so many people that know Tableau and there are so many people that are experts in Tableau and everyone wants to use Tableau.
00:24:44
Speaker
Uh, three years ago, at least I felt like this was the case. I was like, you know what, though? Like I kind of thought about it in my head. Cause this was again, kind of a slumdog millionaire moment. Um, in the singing world, right? Like there's like seven Sopranos for every tenor. And I happen to be a tenor. And so I know how hard it is for Sopranos because they walk into an audition and they're, it's just so much more competitive for them. So I was like, well, that's kind of what it feels like to be a Tableau developer right now.
00:25:10
Speaker
is like there's so many people that can pick up Tableau and it seems like it's kind of easy to pick up that I'm just going to be like a small fish in a big pond. I was like, well, there aren't that many people that know how to use this Power BI thing by comparison. So if I can get really good at that, maybe like, and I can kind of bet on that horse and bet on the fact that like everyone kind of already has Microsoft and kind of already wants to use Power BI because they already have Microsoft, but there aren't that many developers. Maybe I can just kind of lean into that and kind of ride that for a while.
00:25:38
Speaker
And if I want to then, you know, take it a step farther and try to apply, you know, machine learning or AI within power BI, because it's all integrated in the Microsoft ecosystem. Like, okay, great. I can do that too. You know? And so that was like some of the thinking immediately after where I was like, let me kind of take what I have and like kind of ride it and see where it goes. And that's honestly where I still am. I love that. Yeah. I think that's a great way to look at things too. And as you said that you were going to be the small fish,
00:26:08
Speaker
excuse me, the big fish. Gosh, I can't talk today, but the correct size fish and the correct size. But now I'm really curious. So you were working in this internship. Were you doing the traditional career coaching after the course? Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, to your point, I would say like, if you were like, I'm really good at WordPress, you'd be like, okay, come on. Like every third person knows how to write WordPress. Good luck. You know,
00:26:39
Speaker
I mean, yeah, that's like an offhand UX thing that comes to mind. But anyhow, so yeah, with career coaching, like that was actually really key. I think that because where I was, I kept my job at the opera and I like the industry was in kind of a state because this was like right at the beginning of the pandemic. We had just canceled our we had a production in April, canceled that, canceled the entire following season. I'm working in the box office. So I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to have a job.
00:27:06
Speaker
Like I planned on the idea that like maybe I dovetail this or
Job Hunting Strategies and Soft Skills Importance
00:27:10
Speaker
like maybe I I Go unemployed for a little while and hopefully pick up a job on the other side of this boot camp But the goal was hey, I'll stay at the opera if I find another job great I don't know if I will I've never done coding before will anyone ever hire me I'm a I'm a singer right that was my kind of mindset I was like, you know Good luck if I if I end up coming out on the other side of this with any kind of offer in hand so um
00:27:35
Speaker
Then we're going through the pandemic and I'm kind of nervous about like updating my LinkedIn profile and like talking about the fact that I'm a developer and saying that like, Oh, I know how to write Python, blah, blah, blah, or I'm a data scientist. Cause that's not in my title at the opera. So if they start seeing me updated my LinkedIn profile, like, and they're trying to make cuts, I was like, Oh, maybe this isn't going to go well. You know? And so I talked to my career coach, not about this explicitly, but she could kind of tell like, I think after about a month of my applying.
00:28:01
Speaker
Like I was kind of going through the motions. You know, I was like connecting with people on LinkedIn. I was like applying for jobs, you know, but she was like, you have to like do this. And I was like, Oh, okay. And she's like, you went through the program, like you graduated. So, um, now it's time to like, if you, if you want to go, go, you know, as far as like, if you want to really make this search, you got to make the search. And so that's where I was like, okay. So then like, that's where I was like, I got a real, like LinkedIn.
00:28:31
Speaker
Overdo the whole thing. Put your projects front and center. Add your, what's that summary line that says who you are or what about you and talk about your experience. Hit all your bullet points about all the different technical platforms you have. Yes, none of it has anything to do with your current role. You got to lean into it. And if they fire you tomorrow, that's what you're here for. Because you can't just be scared of getting fired in order to get hired. That's just irrational.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah, well, one, I agree with her. You do have to lean into it. Because I've seen so many LinkedIn profiles where it'll say UX designer, architect, or like UX designer, and then just some other career. Like, you can't be both. You need to be one or the other. But secondly, it is really scary. Like, getting fired and you have a family.
00:29:28
Speaker
What was that like? Did the people at the opera house find out? Yeah, it's it's not something that I mean, I guess my job search never came up, you know, from the work while I was working at the opera. I did have an experience where because I had in my mind, I was like, maybe, just maybe I'll be able to do this kind of work in the performing arts. Like that actually would have been the ideal.
00:29:56
Speaker
And I'll put that shout out to the universe too. If anyone's listening to this and they know about an orchestra or something that needs a data scientist or wants Power BI developer, I'm still open to that possibility. But the struggle I found was that industry, what I would say is, from a technical perspective, maybe 10 or 15 years behind where the cutting edge is. Because when you're talking about industries like pharma or finance or tech,
00:30:26
Speaker
You know, they are, those that are at the cutting edge are willing to put so many resources into analytics or AI or machine learning or report development or data visualization that they can find the best of the best and they can sit right on, you know, the next technology that's on the horizon. And they harvest all the talent doing that. And so I wasn't able to find any kind of such role, right? No one in the nonprofit sector was, not no one, but there were pretty slim pickings.
00:30:56
Speaker
you know, for like true analytics kind of setups, you know, amongst nonprofit organizations, because they just often can't compete in terms of resources with your Netflix's and your Google's and your Apple's of the world that can, you know, hire the best and the brightest. And so, you know, I did present I remember a data science project at my at my job and
00:31:21
Speaker
Honestly, I didn't present it very well because it was one of the first things I had worked on. And I was still pretty new to how to communicate in this kind of new language. And it felt like it just didn't stick with anybody. I was hoping that it was going to make a big impact. I was like, yeah, we're going to go with this right away. And I could just tell by the response. I was like, you know what? It's years before I can come back to this organization with this skill set.
00:31:47
Speaker
And so that was the closest that I think it came to like my career transit move being a part of my previous role. I say, I say, yeah, that definitely checks out. I know, um, you know, coming from fashion as well, I think that's somewhat similar. There's not, I was talking to a person who was building a platform that,
00:32:13
Speaker
makes custom measurements for clothing because it's a huge issue with clothing waste. If it doesn't fit, clothing just doesn't get bought and it gets put into landfills and all of that. And when we were just talking, he was like, honestly, like nobody wants to solve fashion problems. It's fashion. It's not a luxury in the sense that it's
00:32:36
Speaker
which always costs a lot, but it's a very superficial industry. It's not affecting a lot of people's lives in ways that, like you said, tech, finance, all of the pharma are. So I completely agree, but you never know. Once you get to a certain path, maybe something will come up. That being said, I'd love to ask, as you started your job hunt,
00:33:05
Speaker
Why, let's say you as an opera singer with the internship experience and the springboard certificate, if that comes across my desk, why should I look at that background? Why should I consider it? I genuinely ask because I don't know and I would love to be enlightened. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll be perfectly honest.
00:33:33
Speaker
I'm not sure that any of the employers that I interviewed for looked specifically at the fact that I went to Springboard. For that matter, I don't think they looked at what college I went to. Maybe they did. They looked at the fact that I went to a college. But the names, I don't think, rang out in any kind of particular way to say, oh, well, Springboard. Well, let's take a minute and consider this. That's true. Instead, it's I think the soft skills. It's how you communicate in your cover letter. It's how sharp your resume looks.
00:34:02
Speaker
It's how you communicate via email. It's whether or not you answered all the questions on the application. It's whether you offer to like write in full sentences, you know, it's these little things that are maybe a product of having gone through something like springboard that might lead someone to say like, Oh, this is like a well put together person that's applying for this job amongst like the hundreds or so people that didn't bother to like
00:34:29
Speaker
even write in sentences when they offered their application to me. Okay. And then was there any, so what are these other soft skills, but I'd love to know the soft skills maybe based on your background because I think like you said, you were the only artist that came through and it's intimidating. People, you know, come from different backgrounds.
00:34:55
Speaker
Was there something that you think helped you get noticed, helped or surprised you about fitting into your new role? So I, I felt like it was my observation from meeting my cohort and such that I thought that I could carry myself well in part because again, I had, I think a little bit more experience than a lot of folks who were maybe fresh out of school or were recently recent graduates. So I said, okay, like I know a little bit more about,
00:35:23
Speaker
hiring people. I know a little bit more about being in a workplace. I know kind of what works and doesn't work in an interview. So I can leverage that, you know, like I can use that to my advantage. And I think speak to who I am as a person, if given the opportunity in an interview. So when I was kind of like, you know, you do this even as a musician to where you're like, okay, I need to perform my best. But I also have to know who I'm singing for, you know, if they're going to do a production of
00:35:54
Speaker
Carmen, I need to sing things or audition with things that will give them the understanding that I could potentially sing in that opera. You know, I'm not going to just like go on and do whatever I feel like because I feel like that's the truest expression of who I am. No, no, no, you have to like kind of put a business lens on because it's at the end of the day, it's a business thing. Like it's a professional audition that you're doing. So similarly, in terms of an interview, in terms of applying for a job,
00:36:20
Speaker
looking for a job, I thought, okay, I think that if I can get to an in person interview, I personally would be a competitive candidate that might not be for someone else. Someone else might say like, Hey, if I get to the technical interview, I'll blow them away. Fine, if that's you, like, great, leverage that, you know, so I said, Okay, if I know that I getting that in person interview, I should be okay, there, I just have to get through the screening, whether that be a technical screening or a resume screening, I have to do everything I can to get
00:36:48
Speaker
through those first two pieces. Because when it comes to me versus MBA this, math, science, comp sci that, maybe I don't hold up on paper. So I got to make sure my resume, my LinkedIn, it's got to be as sharp as possible. I've got to look at what I call my weak hand, not my strong hand. And make sure that my weak hand, I can play with my weak hand as well. And so that was really an area of focus for me, was make sure that if they ask you about technical things,
00:37:16
Speaker
that you're articulate and that you can speak to them and that you're not full of BS and that you don't just throw around a lot of terms that have no meaning and just randomly throw together technical jargon that you can articulate what you feel. And with what you have on paper, what's a word? Blow it out of proportion, but don't hide anything about what you've done technically either. That was my strategy. But I think more globally, it was like, know what you have
00:37:47
Speaker
and focus on how you can compensate on the things that maybe you don't have. That makes a lot of sense. There's a saying in design where if something looks really nice, people assume it will work a little bit better than how it might. So in a sense, not to say you weren't qualified, but the way that you were able to kind of polish yourself and
00:38:14
Speaker
pull together certain areas just make you come off looking really well designed. That sounds like there's some correlation there. Yeah. I mean, another slumdog millionaire moment in my mind. There were situations as a singer where I remember one time I had to audition for the Juilliard School and I was really intimidated because I heard the guy before me. They were no joke.
00:38:42
Speaker
It's even, you could say more intimidating as a musician because like you actually hear the person, like you don't necessarily hear the other competitors. You might know about them or see their resume, but like, I literally heard this dude and I was like, I cannot compete with this dude and I'm about to go on stage, you know? But you just, you still have to go out there and be like, okay, this is the hand I have and let's, let's play cards. And so. That's fascinating to share. Like, yeah, we don't see who we're interviewing next too.
00:39:09
Speaker
for auditioning, that is definitely not to say a ridiculous pun, but a real peek behind the curtain to see what you have to do to step up. And he's your friend too. So then he comes off the stage and you're like, hey, great work. I want your job. Good luck. And that's just the nature of the business. These are your friends also and your colleagues. Yeah. And so yeah, I think that in tech, in some ways it's a bit
00:39:39
Speaker
easier to be perfectly honest and less competitive and more flexible. So you know the the the rigors I think of being a musician I think actually kind of you know put you through the ringer in a way where you're like oh okay like I just have to send in a paper resume that's it like that's not so bad after all you know.
00:39:58
Speaker
That is fascinating. Well, I'll never complain now. I don't think I could ever be a performer like that. Um, but so let's talk about just in general, the job hunt. You had this great internship experience that your mentor gave to you, but what was it like applying for jobs? Obviously you were applying all of these soft skills and really honing your knowledge technically, but what was that experience like for you? How long were you job hunting? Yeah, I think for me.
00:40:27
Speaker
Uh, I think I finished the program in about late September and I think I got like a, I had a funny situation actually. So I, um, I think it was about three or four months of applying for things and it was about January. So like the holidays were in the middle there. Right. So like I was finished in September, October, I was kind of fumbling around. Like I said, my career coach was like, Hey, really dial it in. I started really like applying in November. And then like early December, I remember I had an, uh, an interview with Comcast. So I interviewed for the role.
00:40:56
Speaker
And then I think like the holidays got in the way and then something happened with their HR system or something like that. And so it was like, by like late January, I had a second round interview, which is unusually long time. And so I had the second round interview and then like, uh, I think there was even a third round interview that I had to talk to like three or four people, if I remember correctly, um, and some VPs and stuff like that. And so I went to that interview too, with Comcast.
00:41:20
Speaker
And, you know, the thing you do, like you don't bet on one horse. So I was still applying for other stuff. And I had this application for Amerisource. And I think I probably had my first round interview with Amerisource by that point. So I had three rounds with Comcast. And, uh, I think something happened where I had applied for another job at Comcast also. And they had told me like, well, we can't consider you for a job number two until they've resolved your position with job number one.
00:41:49
Speaker
And I was like, OK, well, I've been through three rounds. So it's like, we're either doing this or we're not at this point because I don't know what more they need to know from me. And so it was kind of tense because I was like, I don't really know what's going on. I wasn't sure if this internship was going to hire me either. I had this interview with Amerisource. I did the interview. I had a second round interview with Amerisource like two weeks later. I did that interview. I'm still kind of waiting to hear from Comcast at this point. I think I talked to the hiring manager
00:42:16
Speaker
And he was like, yeah, we want to hire you. But they couldn't. I'm not sure if that was the case or not, or if it was an HR thing. But basically, I spent two months in limbo with Comcast. And within two weeks, Amerisource just came along. First round, second round, offer done. Amazing. And I was like, OK. And then I went back to, I think, Comcast even. Because something you can do is you can say, hey, I have this offer. Are you still considering me? And they might be like, yes, what's your salary? And they might upbid you potentially.
00:42:46
Speaker
And even then, they're like radio silence. So I was like, OK, we're just wasting everyone's time, I guess. So yeah, I think that it can be a roller coaster, I guess, is the short answer of all this. But through all of it, for me, I was
00:43:08
Speaker
Again, in the spirit of being diligent, like I tried to leave no stone unturned. If my career coach was like, contact seven people, apply for, I think it was seven people and apply for four jobs. For some reason I have that like etched in my memory. I was like, fine. Absolutely. No exceptions. Like don't take the week of Thanksgiving off. Don't take the week of Christmas off. Like if you need it every week, I will do it every week. Because again, I didn't want to be that guy who was like, Oh yeah, I kind of did it. Oh, I got away from me. Like, I was like, no, like if you're going to do this, do it.
00:43:38
Speaker
You know? And I think that's kind of, again, coming back to being a singer because it is competitive and the people who are kind of like, oh, I forgot to send in my audition materials. They don't get hired. And so here, I brought some of that mindset over again. And then I think that I feel like that vigilance also carried over when I reached out to people because I wasn't just like, hey, I'm just reaching out to say hi and learn about what things are like. It's in Quora.
00:44:08
Speaker
I've honestly talked to people from springboard, like alumni, who are looking for a job that kind of come to me that way. And I'm like, I don't think you're serious about this. You know what I mean? Like I can kind of tell now in a minute, like, because again, I've had to hire people both technical and non-technical that like in the first couple minutes, again, not that different from an audition. You can kind of get a read where you're like, Oh, this person's really going to do well in this role. You know, so if the first couple minutes are like, Oh yeah, what's it like being at Cincora? Like, did you really enjoy your time? Then I'm like,
00:44:37
Speaker
All right, I'm not like there are some serious people out there.
Networking and Overcoming Industry Challenges
00:44:40
Speaker
And I don't think you'd realize that there are like sharks in the water. You know, it's a competitive business. And I would say perhaps even more so now. I actually don't know. So I'm very curious. I feel like that's a normal question a lot of people ask, but I would I want to hear your hot take on why you think some people are serious and why some people. Yeah. So like if I mean, I would definitely don't get me wrong. I wouldn't
00:45:05
Speaker
not be cordial or polite or professional, right? But I would say reach out to someone that I went to college with, right? A good example, a friend of mine worked at JPMorgan Chase, right? So I reached out to him. I said, hey, you know, Burke, I wanted to let you know there's a data analyst position available. It's based out of Wilmington, Delaware. I wanted to know if you guys have a referral policy. If you do have a referral policy, I'd love to talk to you more about this role and see, get your take on whether or not you think I might be a fit at Chase.
00:45:35
Speaker
Like I've got right to the point. He doesn't have time to waste. I don't have time to waste. He's my friend. I'm telling him why I'm reaching out to him. I'm not doing it in a rude way, right? But I don't want to waste his time either. And I want to be sincere about the fact that I want to work there. Is this something that you were close friends with? No, no. This was like a guy that like was in my fraternity. I hadn't talked to him in like 10 or 15 years, you know? Oh, OK. We were like I connected with him on LinkedIn. I probably looked him up on LinkedIn, you know, like
00:46:04
Speaker
I was probably connected with someone else. And then I saw, oh, yeah, Burke. Oh, he works at JP Morgan. I probably reached out, connected with him on LinkedIn. After I connected with him, I probably sent him a message, if I remember correctly. And I was like, hey, Burke, I'm glad to see you're on LinkedIn. I haven't talked to you in a bit. Here's why I wanted to reach out to you. I see. OK. And let's say there's someone working at Netflix who you don't know at all, like third party connection.
00:46:32
Speaker
What kind of email would you say to them? Yeah, I would say like, um, I'd want to have some context. So like, I'd have to, I probably wouldn't just reach out blindly, right? I'd have to know like that they work on the team for the role maybe that I'm applying for, or maybe they know the hiring manager of the role that I'm applying for, or like, I don't think it can just be like out of the blue. Cause if I was to get contacted out of the blue, like me personally, someone contacts me and says like,
00:47:01
Speaker
Oh, Hey, I have no idea who you are, but I'm applying for a job. It's in core. I'm like, I don't know you either. So why are we doing this? You know, I was going to ask because last week I got three people who I did not know saying, Hey, I'm looking for a job. I worked for Verizon. And so three people just said, Hey, I'm looking for a job is Verizon hiring. And I don't know you. So maybe, okay. Yeah. I just don't know you. Yeah. Maybe Verizon is hiring.
00:47:30
Speaker
What if you aren't like someone who represents me well? I don't know if that's a selfish thing to say, but if I don't know you, and I'm referring you, that's kind of my reputation. Now, I will say right, like I've chosen to come on this podcast. So for example, you know, if someone wants to say, Hey, I think your story is interesting. If you have like 15 minutes and want to get a cup of coffee, or like, if I could just hear about like how you did what you did, because I want to learn
00:47:58
Speaker
or I'm kind of curious about what you did or whatever it might be. I have questions. I don't agree with something that you said on the podcast. Fine. You know, reach out to me, shout out to me, and we can have a talk about it. But if you just come out the blue and say like, hey, can you get me a job at Sancor? I'm like, why? You know? Yeah. No, I completely am not getting you wrong at all. I love hearing about how people want to be approached, and I think
00:48:26
Speaker
I, the episode, a few episodes before you, Sarah was talking about how she wants some context. She doesn't just accept people that add her on LinkedIn. Um, and I don't want to put those types of people down because I think she said it. She's like, networking's awkward and not everybody has the same level of people skills. I'm sure different cultures play a part in how people communicate.
00:48:55
Speaker
So I think it's really exciting to talk about now that we're on the other side of things, we probably don't have to network quite as much to get a new job. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think it's really interesting to talk about this because some people just don't know. And I think it's got to be in some way genuine. You know, like if you got to come straight about like, if you're just looking for a job, then you got to tell me that you're just looking for a job.
00:49:21
Speaker
If you just reach out to me with no context, I don't know what you're about. I don't even know if you're a bot for that matter, you know? And so if I see springboard alum, but I've never heard your name before, I'll be honest. I've ignored some of those requests because I'm like, I, who is the, you know, I got nothing. But if you say, Hey, I'm trying to learn power BI or I, uh, want, I live in Philadelphia. I think core is a big employer. Like, Oh, okay. You're like a person that has like a thought.
00:49:48
Speaker
You know now we now we can start to like jam on that and try to figure out like if there's something in in my experience that might help you Yeah, I I agree. I have also ignored some of those messages as well. I also it's it's you have to remember it also takes a lot of our time and energy like I Work full-time. I'm an active runner. I host this podcast and
00:50:14
Speaker
I have a social life. I need to sleep. If I don't get to spend 30 minutes a day reading my book, I will be cranky. So to take out an extra half an hour to an hour of my time a day, like to talk to a new person who I don't know how they're going to be. It's a big ask, at least. I'll share like, you know, I just thought of like three similar situations and how they all kind of played out differently. So situation one.
00:50:42
Speaker
I reached out to a, someone I knew, right? Someone I was friends with in college, didn't know they worked in analytics. And that was like a warm, let's call that a warm call. You know what I mean? Hey, Tom, how you doing? It's been a long time. How's Frank? Good deal, blah, blah, blah. How'd you get in? I had no idea you were even in analytics, right? You can have that kind of conversation. And that just kind of like builds your confidence a little bit. Cause you're like, Tom's a guy like me. So like, if he can do it, maybe I can do it. So that has one purpose.
00:51:11
Speaker
Maybe Tom works at a company where you work, but in all likelihood he probably doesn't. But at least you get a little bit more confidence that way and like, okay, like I don't have to be a rocket scientist to go into this new field. That's one. Two, there was, I think it was a data scientist at Vanguard. And I had seen him give like a Zoom lecture that I had attended. And I was like, hey, you know, it'd be really interesting to like hear about how you got into data scientists and so on. And, you know, I'm applying for some roles at Vanguard. I'd love to hear about your experience there.
00:51:39
Speaker
And he was kind enough to say, yeah, sure, I'll meet it with you. It set up a time on Friday afternoon. And I think I, for whatever reason, I flaked. Like, I forgot about the guy. I tried not to do it. But I misread my calendar or something along those lines. And I emailed him after the fact. I'm like, I'm really sorry about this. I missed the count. I never heard of him again. That's absolutely how it can go. I'm not saying everybody will do that. But if you flake, like, just move on.
00:52:09
Speaker
That's on you at that point, in my opinion. The third that I think was where a Springboard alumni reached out to me. I still remember the guy, because of the dozens of people that have probably reached out over the past three-ish years, I still remember this dude, because he's like, hey, can we set up some time to talk? I'm graduating from Springboard. I'm going into the job search. I'm curious to meet more people that have gone through it. And I was a year out, and it was an articulate kind of introduction that he offered. And I was like, sure, let's talk.
00:52:38
Speaker
got on the Zoom call. We talked for about half an hour. He's like, here's the thing, thing, thing. I like what you did. I like this thing. I like this thing. Oh, I think I'm going to try that, so on and so forth. Yeah, of course the dude got hired. He did all the things. Sometimes I would almost say it's not rocket science. I didn't say it's easy, but it's not rocket science either. And in some ways, singing is a bit like that too. It's not the most difficult thing to do.
00:53:07
Speaker
You don't have to be like a, you know, IQ 300 to do this, but you got to do everything. I agree. I completely agree. I do think some people just take longer to realize it, but you're absolutely correct. You got to do the things. And I also had someone similar. Um, she was a guest on this podcast too, Katie, and that's how we met. She reached out to me. We had a similar background.
00:53:36
Speaker
And now she has a podcast episode on this podcast. So she is doing great, but, you know, being silly aside or putting silliness aside, she is doing well. She is working at a major company and yeah, I could definitely tell like she was going to do well. And I agree. I can definitely tell when people reach out or how they're acting and some people will make it and some people
00:54:02
Speaker
might take a little bit longer i don't want to say you're not going to make it because that's just so mean but i'll say it is competitive like that's the reality of it it's maybe not as competitive as being a singer so like i'm i might come off as a little bit harsh you know because uh i've been in that ultra competitive environment i bring a little bit of that edge you know to this kind of process and you could say like i i think it doesn't necessarily hurt
00:54:30
Speaker
You know, to come in with a little bit of an edge and to say like, hey, like it's real business that's going down. Like people are really trying to get these jobs. People are really competing for this kind of work. That's at least been my experience. Honestly said that, you know, brilliance right there. Like that should be the title of your podcast episode, bringing a little edge or something like that.
00:54:51
Speaker
So anyways, um, awesome discussion on how to network and those soft skills, but you finally got your job. Um, what was that like when you got that? Well, obviously you had to still deal with Comcast kind of like ghosting you, but they can't sit with us anymore. You're at your new job. Right. What's it like? Like what's your day in and day out like? Yeah. So I mentioned, you know, I,
00:55:18
Speaker
I said, data visualization specialist. I showed up the first day. I'm like, okay, what are we visualizing? They're like, all right, you're collecting requirements on like a data pipeline. And I was like, hmm. All right. Well, not what I thought we were doing, but that's cool. And so like, you know, I was just happy to be there, right? I was just happy to be in the room. I was like, Hey, I made it. Like we're starting on day one. Like this is, this is cool. Now still a lot of imposter syndrome, tons of imposter syndrome. Right. Cause I was like, these guys are like legit data engineers, like with degrees.
00:55:46
Speaker
and lots of coding experience, and I'm coming in thinking I don't have a clue what I'm doing. So I tried to be kind of quiet at first, and I was like, look, I don't have a clue what I'm doing. But I did know that I knew, again, I was like, I know how to carry myself in a workplace. I know how to speak professionally. I know how to articulate my thoughts. I know how to carry myself in a meeting, or how to tell when I've talked too much, or maybe talked too little, or when I need to let someone else take a turn.
00:56:16
Speaker
If anybody thinks I'm talking much on my podcast, this is my episode, so I get to talk. And as I started, I think, a little bit timid. But that's OK. I think anyone would expect as much. It's going to take a few months to kind of see, OK, who is this person for real? And my manager, to her credit, did a real nice job of being able to, I want to say,
00:56:46
Speaker
Supportively say like hey lean in like this is you, you know, this is your role And so as I and at first like I didn't talk to anybody about the fact that I was a musician because I thought about a musician What are you doing here? You know, so I tried to like hide it cover it just not get into it And so over time, you know, it started to come out here and there a little bit more I talk about a little bit with one person. Oh, yeah, you know, oh I'm yeah, I sing a little bit with this choir Oh, yeah, you know, I'm gonna sing in a concert this weekend something like that, you know
00:57:14
Speaker
It's little bits here and there. Oh, I'm a little busy because I've got a rehearsal later today or something like that. And so I think that as I started to find that I could do the work, then that became kind of an avenue to start to let more of my personality come forward.
Embracing Authenticity and Delivering Value at Work
00:57:32
Speaker
Because I think I naturally, as a performer, it's kind of intuitive for my personality to kind of influence how I communicate. And that's in technical.
00:57:43
Speaker
spaces as well as non-technical spaces. So if I'm talking about requirements, I'm like, man, this requirement is so all over the place, or whatever it is. I tend to speak colloquially about things that are going on in my professional life. And so I just started to have more of my personality, I think, as I became more comfortable in the role. And then that allowed me to be a better analyst as well, because I started to do that kind of
00:58:11
Speaker
musical synthesis that I talked about before. And I wasn't so like by the book and like have to, you know, make sure you do it exactly the way that the other analysts did. I was like, no, I'm going to do it the way I do it. You know, I'm not going to, I'm going to make sure I satisfy all the requirements of my job, but I'm going to go about it and maybe talk to people the way I like to talk to people because that's why you hired me. You know, so, um, I would say that process probably took like, honestly, it could have been like a year to a year and a half to finally feel like, okay, like I belong in this role because then I started to have some success.
00:58:41
Speaker
like hey you did a good job on this project or you did a good job with this deliverable or something like that and I was like oh okay like people like the work that I'm doing like they like my work better than some other people's work so I don't have to hide behind this singer thing or or hide about the fact that maybe I you know like I can just kind of be who I am because I'm actually good at this yeah I love hearing that story and I think a lot of people I personally can relate to that I was painfully nervous when I started at Verizon and
00:59:11
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds like you definitely have like a really supportive working environment too that allows you to not necessarily like make some mistakes but they clearly saw something in you and there's something it sounds like they invested in you so that you could kind of open up back to them. I will say like I definitely made mistakes and you know something that I think I felt again maybe because I had
00:59:39
Speaker
or I tried to do was to take responsibility, right? So if I, let's say, again, as a BA or a business analyst writing up requirements, let's say someone started developing those requirements and I found out that something in the requirements that I defined were not compatible with whatever the stakeholder had asked for, right? I got to own that. And I got to say, okay, you know, I got to meet up with my data engineer. I got to say, hey, look, you know, there's something I missed in this.
01:00:06
Speaker
Do we fix it in the current user story? Do we add another user story? Do we raise a bug? How do you want to handle this? He'll say, hey, you got to raise another user story. It's going to add two weeks to your timetable. All right, fine. I'll talk to the stakeholder about that. Got to go to the stakeholder, say, hey, look, you know what? There was a small error in the story. We're going to get it two weeks out, or we're going to shorten it to a week because I'm going to turn it around myself. Whatever. But I would take responsibility and not just be like, well, it was the data engineer's fault. You know what I mean? Because no one wants to hear that. Now you're sending your stakeholder on a wild goose chase trying to figure out
01:00:36
Speaker
who's, you know, why their thing is not, uh, uh, why they're not getting what they want, why they're not getting the value that they asked for, you know, in a timely fashion. And, um, I think honestly, that's like probably been the thing that I've tried to do or tried to keep in the back of my head. I think even in my current role, which is like, if you're not delivering value, like someone's going to sniff it out.
01:01:01
Speaker
you know, in some way, shape or form, like at some part in the hierarchy, like someone's going to see it, you know, and then they might not tell you outright, but it could put you in jeopardy a little bit. And so it's like, yeah. And so that's where it's always like, all right, deliver, deliver value. It might not be like deliver code. Usually it's deliver code, but it might be in some other way, but make sure that you're delivering value on a consistent basis.
01:01:28
Speaker
Certainly. I know it's not necessarily delivering results, but one of my principles is how can I work in a way that makes other people's jobs easier? And I feel like that's helped me get a long way. I've asked certain stakeholders like, hey, like I'm asking you this or I'm suggesting this, but what would that do for the larger picture? Like I was talking to,
01:01:55
Speaker
our analytics person, and I never really had made a request for analytics like I was in this project. So I really took the time to understand like, hey, just because I'm asking this, I don't want to burden you with something ridiculous. What's the way we can work together so that I'm not torturing you with all of this request? And I think it helped foster a better relationship. And I learned a little bit more on what they do on their end.
01:02:27
Speaker
So fantastic. Well, I know we're coming up on time. I would love to ask, is there anything that you, we didn't get to talk about that you would love to share? Um, there's like one issue I feel like that is a challenging one that I've observed that is prevalent, I think in the industry. And I haven't figured out how to resolve it.
01:02:53
Speaker
You know, something that I've experienced, I came into this job as an American, you know, I'm an American citizen, born and raised in Boston, I live in Philadelphia. And we, I observe as an, I kind of like, I feel like an outsider to tech, you know, that I like stumbled into this and I've like been dropped into this place after 30 years of living in another part of the professional world. So we don't have, you know,
01:03:21
Speaker
contractors necessarily in the opera world. We have people that come from all over the world, but there aren't these different classes of employees. And it creates a curious problem, I find. And so I would say that it's something I try to be sympathetic to, and it's something that I would say personally struggle with, which is where I find that when someone is a contracted employee,
01:03:50
Speaker
they're kind of looking over their shoulder a little bit and they're not wholly, or it's not to say they're not wholly invested. That's not the right word. It's tough to be wholly invested in the outcome of a company when you don't know if you're going to be at that company in the next several months, particularly if you're working on a visa situation or something like that. So I'll just say that like, that's a, that's a, an additional layer of complexity, you know, to those I think who are in this job search who not only don't have
01:04:19
Speaker
uh, let's say the, the, the certainty of whether or not they're going to have a job, but also don't have the certainty of knowing whether that job will last three, six, nine or 12 months or longer than that, you know? And, um, I've seen, you know, where I feel like it can impact their work because why would you be invested in the long-term output? You know, if you might not even be there a few months from now.
01:04:45
Speaker
And wouldn't you be, if you had a target, if you felt like you had a target on your back, or if you felt like, you know, you might be the next one to go, you might be a little bit more timid about raising concerns when there's a problem in the code that you saw, because you don't want to hold up the deliverable, because now it might be you that gets, you know, and I've seen, I feel like situations like that where I feel like people are not so, whereas I'm pretty adamant when I think that there's a problem, because I'm in a different employment situation. And as a result, I can speak objections.
01:05:15
Speaker
You know, and I can raise concerns when I think there's a problem in a deliverable. And I think that's for the better that I have the agency to do that. And I kind of wish that there was a solution where everyone felt they had that agency. Yeah, that's a big one. Are you talking about contractors that are non-American or both just in a contract, non-full-time role? I think being a contract employee is one layer of difficulty, but being a contract employee under a visa, I think is like now you're
01:05:45
Speaker
doubly uncertain, right? Yeah. And so like, I've seen situations where contractors have come in for like, four weeks. And I'm like, four weeks? Like, what's the point? You know, like, what what can you honestly deliver in that period of time? So yeah, those are situations where I'm like, you know, like, what what are we doing here? You know, and, and I've definitely seen situations where I've seen very capable smart developers who
01:06:14
Speaker
know there's a problem that's more serious than they've articulated it. And I infer that to be because they don't want to speak as adamantly about it as they might if they knew that they were secure in the position they were in. Certainly. Yeah, that's definitely something I've slightly witnessed, but I haven't put as much thought into it as you and you're asking really good questions here. The other reason I feel like I've noticed it is because like
01:06:45
Speaker
I'll be honest, like these people look just like me. Right. Uh, and so, and in many cases, like they're smarter than me, but I'm the one speaking up, you know, like, and sometimes even like outside of, let's say stand up or outside of a requirement session, like I might go to them and be like, Hey, what's actually the problem? And they'll be like, this is actually a problem. I'll be like, good. And then I'll go in and I'll be like, here's the problem folks. You know? Wow. That's really tough. Cause obviously there's that.
01:07:16
Speaker
difficulty of taking somebody's work or someone's intelligence, but like in this situation, it's not like you're taking it or stealing it. It's just that they're uncomfortable bringing it up. Right. And I feel like they're, I mean, I don't want to say they're owed because you get caught because I'm like, oh, well, they told me. And then it's like, well, no, I didn't want to tell anybody anything. Right. So like it's almost like you're caught between giving due credit or giving credit where credit's due and then
01:07:45
Speaker
But also, you owe it to your team to indicate when there are problems of great significance. Yeah, this really surprises me. And of course, you have a different lens to the world than I do. It is interesting because I am a contractor at Verizon. And if I see a problem, I have no issue saying something.
01:08:13
Speaker
And I feel like that's appreciated. People want others to speak up. So I wonder if your company has a culture of they don't like it when certain people speak up or, um, yeah, I just wonder what that fear is. I don't know. I mean, I don't, I'll say like the teams I've worked on, many of the contractors are, I would say South Asian by descent. I think that there could be cultural norms that impact like how people choose to communicate.
01:08:43
Speaker
or when they choose to communicate or in what language they choose to communicate. So I think those all can serve as barriers. But one of the things I do like about being a technical employee is that code is code. So you don't have to speak English or whatever other language, Hindi, whatever language it might be, to be an effective technical employee. In some ways, I found this,
01:09:13
Speaker
works this realm to be in some ways actually more, what's the word, inviting than maybe in the performing arts where you can be too short, too tall, too fat, too skinny, so on and so forth. So, whereas here, like, you know, people that are different, let's say that are, are different, I want to say neurotypicalities, but that's not really the right word, but basically have different ways of thinking, you know, can
01:09:42
Speaker
still converge upon a similar project. But perhaps even if without these, let's say employment hurdles, there might just be communicative issues, you know, where you have to kind of find how your particular team is able to communicate in an efficient way, or in an effective way, I should say. And it might not be like the loudest one in the room, for example, you know, like, I like to be the loudest one in the room, I've been the loudest one in the room most of my life. So
01:10:12
Speaker
I don't mind speaking my mind, but, um, that doesn't mean that I should have the right to, you know, the opinion. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I wish I had some context. Like that is a really sad thing. I do want people to advocate for themselves no matter where they come from or their employment status. Yeah. I, that is a really good one. And, um, I hope those answers come sooner rather than later.
Considering Future Career Steps in Management
01:10:41
Speaker
Well, this being said, I love to ask everybody is you're here now. You are doing great. You started a new role within the company. What's next for you? Where do you see yourself going? I talked to a friend of mine about this the other day because there's this like question of like management basically. And it's like, I don't know. I mean, I feel like.
01:11:08
Speaker
you get so far away from the things that you enjoy. Personally, I like being able to write DAX and Power Query and develop data models. I think the term I've heard used is individual contributor, and I like being in that role. But at the same time, I've seen that there is a common trajectory where it's like once you get good at writing data models, you go and manage other people in writing data models. I don't know.
01:11:38
Speaker
I would say I'm personally sort of wrestling with that decision right now of like, oh, do I want to try to turn that corner and become one of those people that's managing other people? Or do I kind of do what I do and try to do it well? So for now, I'm content doing what I do and doing it at least in what I think is well. And so I would say that's, I still enjoy being in that capacity.
01:12:09
Speaker
You know, other than that, I always look for ways or look for, try to keep an eye out for opportunities that are on the nonprofit side, because that's kind of where I, I feel like almost at home in some ways, but I kind of recognize that like now I've kind of, you know, sailed off to a new world, but it doesn't mean that I've kind of lost, you know, connection to like, I still am an active performer from time to time. I'm still, I'm in touch with a lot of, you know, singing colleagues. I'm still in touch with the industry to some degree.
01:12:38
Speaker
Uh, so, um, I, I often try to say, okay, well, like, you know, how might these two eventually synthesize in a effective way, you know, where, um, I'm not just like one man in, in, in a crowd, you know, yelling analytics, you know, and waving my hands around in the air with, with no one to hear me. Um, and, uh, so, you know, I'm not sure where that interest will go over time, you know, but I think that's, that's maybe.
01:13:08
Speaker
something I have an eye towards at some point. Definitely. And that's a huge decision, management and like managing people. I think it's very smart that you're taking it seriously because I think a lot of people think, okay, next step. And it's just more about them. But when you get into the management role, you really do play a part for the people under you. And I'm sure you're well aware there's many managers out there that should not be managers. So,
01:13:37
Speaker
And I actually work with someone now who actively is a lovely person and is a mentor. And I think would make a great manager, but she doesn't want to do it just because it's not the type of work she wants to do. So it's lame work. I mean, I'll be like, that's at least my first impression. I'm like, I guess it's for some people, you know, different strokes for different folks, I guess. But I can't make I can't get around. I can't get my head around, you know, like walking away from the code and like
01:14:04
Speaker
just having to talk to people all day. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a great thing to realize. And I think some people don't. So I, you're right. It's like, well, what do you do next? It's like, Oh, I guess you become a manager. And it's like, well, you might not be good at it. And then what, you know, yeah. Um, and I would hate to be bad at my job. That would stink.
01:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, went from doing something you're good at now to just completely derailing a team's morale. Yeah, although I feel like the managers derailing the morale aren't that aware that they are. But regardless of what you decide, I'm sure you'll excel in it. And lastly, are you open to listeners connecting with you on social media?
01:14:50
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, we talked about this a bit, right? So it's like the do's and don'ts. Don't at me out of the blue. No, I'm just kidding. But no, I, yeah, no, I do like staying in touch with people. I do like following people on LinkedIn. You know, I do like seeing what what folks are doing and hearing about different content that people are trying to distribute. So yeah, you can certainly find me on LinkedIn. I believe I'm Siddhartha Mishra. H-A-R-T-H-A, Mishra, M-I-S-R-A.
01:15:17
Speaker
in LinkedIn so you can find me there. I work at Sancora. Yeah. Fantastic. Well, I said thank you so much for your time. I loved talking to you. I think this episode can kind of serve as a playbook for how to reach out to people because we got we got granular there and it was great. I loved it.
01:15:40
Speaker
And for anyone listening, if you have questions for Sid or myself that could be answered on a future episode, please email me at alumnipodcast at springboard.com. Sid, again, thank you so, so much. Sure, no problem.