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00:00:01
A conversation with a UX portfolio expert
17 Plays20 days ago
On the season finale, we talk to Matej Latin, a Product Designer and the author of the Better Web Type project and the Better Web Typography for a Better Web book.
He currently helps designers build better careers and find their dream jobs with his UX Buddy project.
Today, we talk about the UX portfolio and the design industry on a deeper level. What are the common flaws his mentees present in themselves and their portfolios and how do they overcome them? Special thanks to the Springboard alumni who submitted their questions.
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Questions for Matej or the host? Would you like to be featured as a guest? Please email us at [email protected]. -
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Transcript
00:00:14
springboard
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Life After Tech Bootcamp. It's Wednesday again and my favorite day of the week because I get to talk to someone really interesting and share that conversation with you. Today I'm extra excited for this guest. I discovered him on my LinkedIn feed of all places and he wrote a really interesting article about um common UX portfolio mistakes, which I'm very much summarizing right now, and we're gonna get more into that, but it really spoke to me in the sense that I think there's a lot of advice out there. Actually, I'll be quite blunt. I think there's almost too much advice out there for UX designers. It can be overwhelming, but it's really tough to cut through and understand what advice is good and what advice is just fluff and people just wanting to talk or write a Medium article for the sake of doing so.
00:01:08
springboard
But today, I'm really excited to introduce you to someone who I think has a really good way of working with students, um something that really inspired me. And I'm extra excited to have him come on. We also asked you, the listeners, to ask questions, submit questions. So I have them here. And we're just going to have a really awesome discussion on building your UX career, building that portfolio to really get you that dream job. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to Matei. Matei Latin is a product designer and the author of The Better Web Type Project and The Better Web Typography for a Better Web Book. Originally from Slovenia,
00:01:55
springboard
He has a passion for simple and usable design, which took him on a journey through Germany, Luxembourg, London, and all the way to Edinburgh in Scotland. After becoming a father of twins in 2023, he decided to stop working full-time and focus his on his projects instead. He currently helps designers build better careers and find their dream jobs within his UX Buddy project. Hi Matei, welcome to the podcast.
00:02:22
Matej
Hey, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
00:02:25
springboard
Yes. Thank you so much. It's always so exciting to get to just meet people kind of the way we met. Like I saw your content. I was like, this is awesome.
00:02:35
Matej
Yeah.
00:02:36
springboard
Let's talk about more and let's put it on the internet for other people to listen to. So you yeah, well, you know, um we're going to talk about so much today, so I don't want to waste any more time.
00:02:40
Matej
Yeah, cool.
00:02:48
springboard
But before we get into all the advice you're about to bestow on us, what is your origin story? um Obviously, you didn't just write a book and start a company one day. So you got how did you get there?
00:03:03
Matej
So it's quite a journey. So I'm ah i'm a self-taught designer, right? And I basically learned the the basics of HTML when I was 14 in an after-school class, which was called web design. And it was a way for me to to get access to the internet then, because it was 98 basically, right? um And not everyone had internet access at home. That included me.
00:03:30
Matej
And I was ah hoping to get access to internet just to get the cheat codes for the video games that I was playing at the time, right? That was the main reason. But I got to learn the basics of HTML, and I i loved it. It was fascinating, because you would write a couple of lines of code, and you would get this beautiful website. I mean, beautiful by by standards by then, right? Websites out of nothing, basically, right? And I was so fascinated that I just kept learning and eventually I learned about CSS and a bit of PHP. I started using WordPress when that came out. And it was sort of like a hobby that I had besides going to school basically.
00:04:11
Matej
um And deep down, I kind of knew that this would always be a hobby. And I was designing these websites for local clients when I was still in high school.
00:04:25
Matej
But, you know, people around me from my family always kept telling me you will need to get a degree and you'll need to get a proper job at some time. Right. This design stuff, you won't be able to live off of this thing. Right. um And that's that's what I did. Basically, I got a degree in economics, which is completely unrelated to design. um And simply because it was a program at the at the local university, right, in my hometown.
00:04:54
Matej
um there There is no formal digital design university program in Slovenia at all. It's like a tiny country compared to other countries in the world, right? um And we don't have a formal digital design course at all. And that's why I'm i'm basically self-taught.
00:05:16
Matej
And I learned most of what I know and I gained most of the experience before I got my first full-time job by freelancing. i I turned that hobby into almost like having my own business besides going to school or going to college. right But then and once I got that degree in economics, right um I was convinced, okay, now it's the end of this hobby stuff, right? I need a proper job. And I eventually got that proper job at the local bank. ah But then that job was completely unrelated to design. And it was such a toxic environment that I only lasted like a year and a half. And I just couldn't take it anymore. And after a year and a half, I quit. And I decided at that point, okay, now I will commit full time to freelance in design, right?
00:06:10
Matej
And finally, a couple of weeks later, I was offered a full-time position in this Luxembourg startup, right? And that's that was my first full-time position, ah but I had to move abroad because that was what, 2012, I think. um And working remotely just wasn't as common as it is now, basically, right? um So yeah, I lived in Germany and worked in Luxembourg for two years, and then I always wanted to move to London, right? Because London is,
00:06:41
Matej
DCT to be if you're a designer in Europe, right? And if you want to build a career in design. um And eventually I did get a job at another startup in London. um And that's how my career basically started, right? Once you get into a location like London where opportunities are basically endless when it comes to building a design career, it just jump-starts your career, right? um And that's that's how I got into design. Eventually I worked for companies like AutoTrader and GitLab, which are considered big tech companies, right? And I spent quite a few years there. I built design teams, I hired designers, I hired design managers, I created internal designer onboarding programs. I even created resources for hiring designers, like grading systems and
00:07:37
Matej
introducing new interview questions for what we should be asking designers. um And eventually I just figured, now I have a lot of this experience of know how to help designers get jobs and everything. Maybe I should turn it into something. And that's what where the idea for UX Body came from, basically. right And now that I'm a father of twins, and I basically can't ah have a full time job anymore. I can't dedicate it eight to 10 hours per day. um I need to be involved with our children and I need to help out my wife. And running my own business at the side on the side is um it gives me a lot more flexibility, but it also enabled me to to do what I'm more actually more passionate about, which is actually helping mentoring and coaching designers to reach
00:08:31
Matej
a better stage of their careers sooner than I did, because I had to go through all these steps from being self-taught to actually working for these big tech companies. And it took me quite a few years. And I think that designers these days actually have better opportunities, contrary to to common belief, right? um And they can do that much faster than I did. Yeah.
00:08:55
springboard
Oh, that's so fascinating. so Obviously, you know you're really the first guest who's never been to a bootcamp on this podcast, and but being self-taught, especially like back you know in 20, whatever.
00:09:02
Matej
Yeah.
00:09:08
springboard
i was recruit like yeah What I'm trying to say is, yeah, being self-taught is very DIY, but you didn't have YouTube.
00:09:08
Matej
Yeah.
00:09:15
Matej
Exactly.
00:09:16
springboard
You didn't have the internet like it is now to help you get to where you are.
00:09:20
Matej
Yeah.
00:09:22
springboard
So I'm curious to know what, because you just fell into this, you you were playing video games and it was just something you've been doing and it now it's turned into a business, which is such a funny thought when you think about it.
00:09:32
Matej
yeah
00:09:38
springboard
But um what kept you going? Like what kind of made you realize like, No, I can make a career out of this, even though you didn't necessarily have those opportunities in Slovenia. Your family wanted you to just get a job because they probably wanted their son, their brother um to just be successful and make a living.
00:09:55
Matej
Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:58
Matej
yeah
00:09:59
springboard
What kept you going?
00:10:01
Matej
I think it's just this passion for design. I've always been attracted by aesthetically pleasing things, right? um And as I said, right, you you write a couple of lines of code and you build something and that's fascinating. And if you make an effort, you can make it really beautiful. And then I actually started out building websites that I got more into graphic design and branding. And only then I got into UX and UI stuff and product design Yeah, right. um But it's just this this passion for making beautiful things that are also functional and and beautiful. I think what I lacked in opportunities, basically, I made up for in in this passion that kept me going.
00:10:50
springboard
I love that. We've had some other guests say that they've created opportunities for themselves when they couldn't just go out and get one. So I'd love to hear about one opportunity you did create for yourself.
00:10:56
Matej
Yeah.
00:11:02
Matej
One opportunity that I did create for myself,
00:11:07
Matej
I think it's just being being open to sacrifice things in terms of I had to move abroad to actually build my career, right? And I think not a lot of people are actually, especially people from my country, they are not used to would drive more than 20 minutes to work, right?
00:11:30
springboard
Wow.
00:11:31
Matej
that's That's a small country mentality, right?
00:11:34
springboard
No, I.
00:11:34
Matej
um And when you get to the city like London, it's very common that you drive, you commute one hour to work, right? At least. um And you get used to that, right?
00:11:45
Matej
But you need to make quite a few of sacrifices to abandon a lifestyle that you've been brought into and abandon your family, basically, right?
00:11:57
Matej
Because when you, I mean, London is one hour or one hour flight away, but it's still that divide, right? You can't just pop into someone's house, right? um And you can't just call someone and, hey, I'll be there in 20 minutes. So I think that was there was this sacrifice um where I just had to that i had to make in order to to build a career. And I think that's basically the main opportunity that that I created for myself and the willingness to to to make that sacrifice, basically. yeah
00:12:31
springboard
Yeah, and that's a huge one, like moving to another country. I i grew up, I was born and raised in the US, s which, you know, I don't live in my home state and the US is huge.
00:12:37
Matej
Yeah.
00:12:42
springboard
So like moving from my home state to New York City isn't a big leap, but it was a change.
00:12:48
Matej
yeah
00:12:49
springboard
But also kind of what I'm hearing is if you want to change yourself, you gotta kind of change your life a little bit. And like, understand what you have to do to take that. And I'm sure in some ways it wasn't just, I'm moving to London, that's it, never coming back.
00:13:04
springboard
I'm sure you saw that as a stepping stone, not as a, perhaps, or,
00:13:09
Matej
it It was more, Germany was more a stepping stone for me.
00:13:12
springboard
ah, okay.
00:13:13
Matej
I don't speak German and I said to myself, okay, i eventually I want to get to London, right? But Germany sounds like ah like a good stepping stone in between. um And I spent two years there and I and never and invested a lot of time into learning German just because of that, because I knew it was temporary.
00:13:33
springboard
Sorry.
00:13:34
Matej
But I already spoke English, and that's why one of the main reasons why London was the best destination for me, other than that being the main city, because it's the largest city in Europe, basically, right?
00:13:41
springboard
Hmm.
00:13:46
Matej
But yeah I actually went to London with an idea to actually stay there if I really liked it. But eventually we, i want to and when I say we, it was my wife and me, we kind of grew tired of London, because if you're from a small town like we are,
00:14:03
Matej
and then you go and live in such a big city, you kind of get used to it, but you never get truly used to it, right? Then we, after three years, we moved to Edinburgh in Scotland, which was a much nicer town for us.
00:14:16
springboard
Beautiful too.
00:14:17
Matej
Yeah, it's beautiful. But then I started working remotely and once you work remotely, you just start to think, maybe I want to be closer to my family again, you know?
00:14:28
springboard
Certainly. Yeah. If you have these options and again, like it sounds like some of these sacrifices you made allows you to build bigger opportunities later.
00:14:29
Matej
Yeah.
00:14:36
springboard
Like it sounded like you chose to move to Germany because that was just the best case for you, but then you got to choose to move to Slovenia because you already created a wealth of opportunities for you.
00:14:48
Matej
Yeah.
00:14:49
springboard
So it's like, I think a lot of people, I know I fell into this trap.
00:14:49
Matej
Yeah, exactly.
00:14:53
springboard
They get stuck in like a, it's going to be like this for forever, but I always try to remind myself and I i bet you probably bestow upon your mentees. Like it's the long game. It's sometimes you've got to make a little sacrifice here to reap a lot of rewards later.
00:15:03
Matej
It is. Yeah. That's one of the main advice that I give to my, uh, to my mentees as soon as I can is basically you want you probably won't get a dream job with your next job switch, but you'll be at least one step closer and maybe the next job switch will be your dream job, right?
00:15:22
springboard
right
00:15:28
Matej
If you get lucky, like you said you did, right? That happens, you know, it can happen.
00:15:33
springboard
ah can I Okay. So, you know, I wouldn't say Verizon was absolutely my dream job. It was just a great opportunity. I needed a job. I wasn't desperate. Like I definitely turned down other roles that I just knew weren't a fit for me. I had a good interview experience when they offered me the job. I was like, yeah, let's do it. Let's, you know, let's, let's see what this is all about. And yeah, it ended up just being a really awesome opportunity. So, you know, I don't think anybody thinks Verizon is their dream job. Um,
00:16:08
springboard
maybe that it is. But I think what I've come to find out is sometimes like your dream job, like there's a company I definitely really wanted to work for. But then as I started networking, because I'll talk to most people about most things.
00:16:21
springboard
So obviously, I'm going to talk to people that work at my dream companies.
00:16:24
Matej
Yeah.
00:16:24
springboard
You know, at the end of the day, it's not so much it is a bit about and to me, is my opinion, take what you want with it. To me, I feel like it's A lot of it's really the people I work with, the teams and how they're structured and the opportunities I get to, and the projects I get to contribute my talents to, which won't necessarily be at a company you just think is cool.
00:16:37
Matej
Exactly. Yeah.
00:16:49
springboard
So like Verizon's obviously a great, stable company in the US. And yeah, when I looked at it at first, I was like, this isn't a dream, but then as I started working there, working with like, just the wonderful people, um the everyone's just so smart and has such a high EQ.
00:17:04
springboard
I'm like, This is actually kind of a dream.
00:17:05
Matej
Yeah,
00:17:07
springboard
So it's kind of funny how that switched on me. Um, yeah, that's, that's just what happened to me. But anyways.
00:17:12
Matej
yeah yeah, I agree. I agree. It's not necessarily the cool factor, right? Cool companies. I mean, we, we take for granted that startups are like cool companies to work for, right?
00:17:25
Matej
But they are rarely dream jobs. um So because
00:17:28
springboard
Yeah.
00:17:30
Matej
working at a startup is kind of exhausting and you can do that for a couple of years, but then you want something a bit more stable and where it can actually make make an impact and possibly at a bigger at a bigger bigger company with a bigger team. So yeah, it's not necessarily the cool factor. Definitely not.
00:17:48
springboard
Yeah, yeah. Um, that would, yeah, I feel like if I were a mentor, that would definitely be something I would share with others because that was definitely not a mindset I have when I was applying to jobs.
00:18:00
springboard
But let's talk about your company and your initiatives.
00:18:01
Matej
Yeah.
00:18:05
springboard
So let's say I, I've just met you. I'm like, I'm trying to be a UX designer. What, I don't want to be like, what's your sales pitch, but that's basically where they're basking. It's like, what do you provide?
00:18:15
springboard
Like what's your strategy?
00:18:18
Matej
Okay, so I don't at the moment provide like a course that will teach you how to be a UX or product designer, right?
00:18:25
springboard
Bye-bye.
00:18:25
Matej
And I think there's a lot of resources out there that do a really good job in that either boot camps, either video courses online, even free courses. um And how actually when I started focusing more on UX design, I actually took and an online video video course from Jonah Tolley. I think he's quite famous in this area. um He sold a lot of courses. I think I spent like 15 bucks on it.
00:18:53
Matej
And that was after I got that that um that gig in in Luxembourg with that startup. When I actually was already working, my full-time position was as a UX designer. I was actually taking a UX design course. um But that's how it was back then, right? Now I think designers can prepare a lot better at the beginning. um And then I decided just not to do that. I decided to to help designers with what comes after that when they already have some experience and when they already have some material to put in their portfolios. So that I helped them find that better job because so many designers get stuck in working for companies with low UX maturity, right? Or they can't do research and they don't have ways of
00:19:43
Matej
some feedback or whatever form other forms of research informing their work. They are just expected to sometimes even just to make things pretty, right? Even though they're UX or product designers. And of course, and sooner or later, they get get fed up with that, right? And they want something better. And my research and and Jeff Sorrow's research also indicates that the the majority of companies out there are immature when it comes to UX maturity or design maturity. And there's only a handful that are actually really mature, but it's not a typical it's not a typical bell curve, you would expect, right? the The bell is more shifted towards the left side of the chart on the excess axis where the ah maturity is lower, right? Which is really interesting. It's kind of sad, but it's the it's the reality of
00:20:42
Matej
the tech industry, right? if If you want to only focus on on the tech industry. And a lot of some designers get stuck working in these companies and I try to help them kind of rethink and reshape their either existing portfolios or write new portfolios in case studies so that they can actually compete for these jobs at companies that are at least a bit more mature than the ones where they're working at currently, right?
00:21:12
Matej
Because when you go from working from a design immature company to a company that is at least slightly design mature to get it, right? That it's not just making things pretty, it's actually making things useful and speaking to users and then informing what you're actually working on and possibly even having an impact on the on the business results and outcomes.
00:21:38
Matej
it's It's just a game changer, right? you You actually get to do the stuff that you love and that you you are actually being paid for, which sounds kind of absurd, right? That companies hire designers, but then they don't actually let them do their work. But that's exactly what it is at companies with low UX maturity. And i've I've experienced it. I don't know if you've experienced it because I think you said your first job was actually at Verizon, right? And you're logging it there.
00:22:04
springboard
Yeah, I've had a couple other internships and other projects.
00:22:09
Matej
No.
00:22:10
springboard
Yeah, it's been a mix. I think there's a lot of ah
00:22:17
springboard
It's tough to say, I think everyone's really open to learning from each other. So I do explain a lot about UX to some stakeholders more than others. But I don't know if it's like low maturity, or if it's just people trying to understand each other. Because granted, when I meet with a stakeholder, I have there's hundreds of them that I could be working with, not all at once, but not everybody knows exactly what I do and what I can do.
00:22:42
Matej
yeah
00:22:47
springboard
So it's tough to say, but I guess, yeah, to I definitely want to dive more into understanding your opinion on mature UX versus immature UX and companies.
00:22:57
Matej
Yeah.
00:22:58
springboard
But yeah, I guess from my bottom up approach would be like just ah understand that you're going to be explaining what you do a lot. So I, one of the biggest pieces of advice that I got was make sure you know the process because you're going to be defending it your entire career.
00:23:08
Matej
Yeah.
00:23:18
Matej
yeah And is, I mean, that is so common. that we actually think that that's what designers should be doing, right? Defending their work, defending the process that they want to establish.
00:23:31
Matej
But is that how it actually should be? I don't think so, right? I think designers should be allowed to do their jobs. And i don't I'm not saying that all companies need to be design led, right?
00:23:42
springboard
Mm hmm.
00:23:42
Matej
um All companies need to have this balance between design, engineering, and product manager management, right? That's like the sacred trio. um And I've worked for companies that did that really well. I've worked for companies that did that terribly and I've worked for companies all in between, right? Between those two. um And it's just, if you're working to improve the UX maturity bottom up, right? So you're stuck at a low UX maturity company. The only thing you can do is going from bottom up, right? a Because usually, I mean, usually we can say very often these companies don't have any design leadership at all, right? Because that's like a reflection of their UX maturity, right? um And who do you go to when you can't do your job? If you don't have a design leader, you don't have an anyone i want to to go to, right? If you go to the CEO, he doesn't they don't get what design is, what what do you do, right? You go to the engineering, they're even less likely to understand what you're trying to talk about, right?
00:24:51
Matej
um So sadly, the best approach for for these designers is to to leave these companies and try to get a slightly better um job at a company that is a bit more mature, right, when it comes to design. But that's tricky because the work that they do at these companies is not high quality enough, right? So they get stuck, right?
00:25:19
Matej
um But you can, and I always encourage designers to just try to do their work, even if they're not allowed, even though that sounds really strange, right? So like let's give you an example. Designers often say that they can't do research, right? They can't speak to users. And I always tell them, just do it, right? Just do it. It won't harm anyone, unless you're in working in a company where you are working on something that needs to be kept strictly confidential.
00:25:49
Matej
Okay, then don't do it, but otherwise try to find ways where you can actually do it. And there are many ways though. I, in my times do used to be called usability hub. I think they renamed to list now or something now, and you can do a lot of UX research on platforms like this, right? You can create five second tests, click tests, and all these things that can inform your design that will massively increase the quality of your work when you put it in, in case studies in your portfolio.
00:26:18
Matej
Because if you're showing me work in your in your portfolio, in your case study that isn't informed by UX research, i just I will completely dismiss it immediately almost. Because i'm I'm looking for experienced designers. Experience might be the wrong word here, but designers that are somewhat experienced at least.
00:26:43
Matej
um that have experience with conducting UX research and that they know that how that can and should inform their are design decisions, decisions right? um But yeah, if you're stuck at a low UX maturity company, that's the only way to do it. It's just to do it on your own, sometimes even go out of the way and pay for it by yourself, right? Because some of these tests on platforms like this need to be paid um or you just go into a coffee shop and ask,
00:27:13
Matej
people, hey, can I get your feedback on this thing that I'm working on? Can we test this? um Or just you know pay a couple of people and find them online to give you feedback when you're on your on your work. right And that's a way to break free from that cycle, right that dead end cycle where you just keep doing the work that is boring and it's like really low quality and it's getting no you're getting nowhere and the work is getting lower and it's just repetitive. um And you just need to do something about it. No one else will come around and and just say, hey, do this and do that. And now we're changing things. If you're stuck at a at company like that, you need to do something about it. um And it needs to be your initiative. And sometimes even through initiatives like that,
00:28:07
Matej
you can actually sometimes convince other people at these companies, okay, this is actually good. Maybe we should do more of that. And that's exactly what I did with a lot of the startups that I worked where they went from, hey, we want you to do these things, which was everything in terms of design, branding, graphic design, UX, UI.
00:28:26
springboard
my um
00:28:26
Matej
And they were completely ignorant to the other side of design, which is doing research and that research informing the design decisions. and than design having an impact on the business outcomes, right?
00:28:39
Matej
And I just introduced user testing at companies like that and they loved it. So that can of happen, right? um So designers have options when they're stuck at companies like that, definitely.
00:28:50
springboard
Oh my god. Certainly. And I feel like the advice of just do it anyway. Yeah, I i was having this conversation just more on a ah higher level, but it's essentially standing up for yourself and professionally, standing up for your work.
00:29:09
springboard
And it was talking to a coworker about like, why it's so hard to stand up for yourself. It almost kind of feels like you're being mean, but I, right? Like when you stand up for yourself, like, why do you feel like you're being mean sometimes?
00:29:19
Matej
Yeah.
00:29:22
springboard
I'm sure other people will agree or disagree with that statement. We both had this feeling of like, why do we feel mean when we stand up for ourselves, even though we're doing what's right for us, but to put that back into your advice of just do the user research.
00:29:39
springboard
I feel like if you're standing up for your work and you're trying to make it better, it's an effort to do your job better. It's not like you're going against the grace line, you're breaking a law, you're not going to leak secrets to the government.
00:29:49
Matej
Yeah, exactly.
00:29:51
springboard
You're just trying to do your job in the best way you've been trained to do. So if any, like, why would someone get mad at you for that? That would be a very, that would be a really toxic environment if someone's like, you're doing your job too well, like you need to go.
00:30:05
springboard
well
00:30:07
Matej
Exactly. Yeah.
00:30:08
springboard
That makes a lot of sense. Awesome. So let's talk about, you know it sounds like you're working with these people from you know lower UX maturity companies, getting them to push through.
00:30:20
springboard
And that's a basis of getting their case studies to be stronger so that they can go on to get, you know as you say, your dream job. um So that was that's an interesting facet I didn't think about.
00:30:28
Matej
yeah
00:30:32
springboard
But what are some other common themes you're seeing? um people with, you know, poor case studies that are coming from low quality companies. ah What else? What else is kind of a ah problem with the people you work with? We're not a problem. That's mean maybe just something you improve upon.
00:30:53
Matej
Yeah, so when I was at one of the big tech companies that I worked at, and when we had job openings for designers, we would get 200, 300 applications per week, right? ah So that means in a couple of weeks, you would have 1000 applications. And you need to go through that because when design hiring is done well, designers,
00:31:23
Matej
are also involved in it, right? Designers, design managers, and the recruiters are all involved in it, as well as design leadership. um And me as ah as a senior designer, I was actually the first person that the candidates would speak to other than the recruiter. But it was our responsibility as well to go through these applications, occasionally at least, and just screen them.
00:31:52
Matej
decide which which candidates we want to speak to and which we reject right away, right? Which is very often a recruiter's job. But I think it's really good that designers do that as well and design managers do. Because recruiters, unless they are specialized for design recruitment, I don't think they are they are they have the skills or the knowledge more to do that really well.
00:32:20
Matej
because they are recruiting across the whole spectrum of the requirements of the company, basically, right? They're recruiting engineers, they're recruiting product managers, salespeople, designers, everything, right? So unless they're specialized, I don't think they have the knowledge to do that really well. And I think designers and design managers and need to be involved. And when it's done well, they are. And so that means you go through all of these job applications and you're looking at resumes,
00:32:50
Matej
first, and then if the resume is kind of OK, you take a look at the portfolio. um So resumes, if you're looking for senior designers, of course, you will exclude the people immediately, the people that don't have enough experience, right? um But when it gets to portfolios and case studies, there are just so many mistakes that that designers make that I think Sometimes are because they're not informed enough, they don't know better. And other times I think it's from a lack of care. And then even sometimes it's because they're simply playing the numbers game and hoping for the best. right And we we get to see all sorts of things like quality problems.
00:33:41
Matej
They have two small images in in their case studies. right if If you're including images, I want to see the details. I need to zoom in. They need to be high resolution images. And that's the other thing.
00:33:53
Matej
The pixelated images will immediately you get you rejected.
00:33:58
Matej
I mean, you're applying for a designer position. right There's like a an expectation from you to have these things done quite well.
00:34:02
springboard
Thank you.
00:34:07
Matej
That's why if you have a beautiful portfolio website, it will get you further than someone who has like a really shadow looking website, right? um Grammatical mistakes as well. All these things indicate that maybe your your attention to details is just not there, right? um Then we have things like boring and generic titles for case studies. Like um I can give you an example. I was just reviewing a portfolio today. It it was called eTimeSheets. And that was it.
00:34:41
Matej
I don't know what that what that means, what you were working on, right? um So the title of the case studies should actually be, should actually explain your case study in a single sentence, right? And I always recommend using a format of how I describe what you did that led to describe the result and then, and improved, describe what metric you improved, if yeah if you were able to have an impact on metrics.
00:35:11
Matej
If not, you can include something else there, but at least try to explain in one sentence what problem you were solving and what you did, right? And i don't just call the case studies by the name of the project or the name of the company that doesn't tell me anything, right? It can be a subtitle or a tag, that's fine, but the main title should be more descriptive. um And then designers,
00:35:38
Matej
one I don't know why, but a lot of them are like really bad when it comes to writing and explaining stuff and establishing context, right? ah So when I'm reading a case study, I need to understand the situation that you were in. um And i I need to, so that means you need to explain it to me in a way that a five year old child will understand. um And if you don't do that, I have no idea ah most of the case studies that I go to, I have no idea what they're talking about, especially if they're like more technical or they're like really a specific niche product or whatever. right And if I don't understand what you're talking about, first of all, I lose interest almost immediately. And second of second thing is if I don't understand understand it in the beginning, it's it's unlikely that I will understand it later as you're trying to describe the things that you did. right
00:36:37
Matej
ah which kind of is either sabotaging yourself, right? They don't use hooks, right? So the first sentence ideally in your case study should be like a hook, something that gets my attention.
00:36:50
Matej
um And it's ah is something that sparks the curiosity like, you know, that I'm trying to think of and an example here.
00:37:03
Matej
um I was reading this case study the other day of how the designers at Get, which is like a taxi company, I think, similar to Uber, uber but it's for taxis, how they basically took inspiration from Netflix to design a feature on how to switch between personal and business profiles, right?
00:37:15
springboard
Yes.
00:37:30
Matej
And I think the first sentence was something like how we took inspiration from Netflix, which led to doubling our conversion. And you're saying you're doubling conversion in in your first sentence.
00:37:42
Matej
That definitely sparks curiosity. Right.
00:37:45
springboard
Yeah.
00:37:45
Matej
um So things like that. Right. And sometimes the case studies are too long. ah and or they are long walls of text and that's an immediate turn off. It needs to be a good balance between visual stuff and texts, right? um as Again, you're a designer and the expectation are much higher than just a bunch of texts in a medium post, right? um And sometimes they feel like they're fake because they follow this cookie cutter portfolio template, right?
00:38:24
Matej
And you're either thinking to yourself, okay, this is either a person that just finished a UX bootcamp and they have some work, but it's like very limited. And that's why they have this really structured limited sort of case study and process kind of really linear. Or I don't know, they just don't have that experience or they're actually designing like that all the time. And I've seen designers like that in my career where you you know You tell them, hey, we need to just change this thing on on on this screen. And it's like a minor interaction change. And they'll start talking about, hey, we need to do research and define our personas. you know but No, it doesn't make sense. It's just a minor thing. You don't always need to follow the whole process. And the process and is not linear. It doesn't have a beginning and an end. And you don't need to start at step one. And it doesn't end at step eight because there are no real steps. right
00:39:22
Matej
It's a messy process and you need to, if i if I don't read about that in your case study, I'm just thinking they don't have enough experience possibly. And especially if I'm looking for somewhere more senior or intermediate, right? um And then one ah another thing is they don't tell a story. And I think this is more next level because you can get a good job with like a decent portfolio and good case studies, even if they're a bit cookie cutter. But if the work the work looks genuine, you will get a job in UX. But if you want to get to the next level, it's much better if you start telling stories. And if you expose the things that as designers really like to hide, which is imperfection, um the messy stuff, right?
00:40:17
Matej
and i'm i I'm talking about things like I didn't have the confidence to push design through, right? to To push for research. But then something happened and I gained that confidence and I actually pushed through and we did some research and it informed our design decisions like this. And that's the outcome that but we reached in in the end, right? That's the story that I want to hear for someone that is a bit more senior maybe even intermediate. I think the the bar, the the expectation, the high expectations are getting kind of lower, if you know what I mean, right? For lower seniorities, the expectations are getting higher. um With the recent changes, if I should call them like that, in the UX industry, right? With the massive layoffs and how designers are expected to do so many things, you know,
00:41:14
Matej
And they're like being, the design teams are being shrunk. And one designer is expected to do a job of free designers and all these things. I hear horrible things from designers now working full-time in in the industry.
00:41:28
springboard
Oh, gosh, that's
00:41:30
Matej
Yeah.
00:41:30
springboard
while. Yeah, I would ask a lot of it just comes down from what I'm hearing. It sounds like just communication skills, which sadly, I feel like humans, ah people were just not taught communication skills.
00:41:39
Matej
Exactly.
00:41:44
springboard
Those are we're lucky enough to get those from our parents if they have, I guess, I take this back, we all have communication skills.
00:41:47
Matej
Yeah.
00:41:51
springboard
Some are just better than others. And yeah, school doesn't really teach us this.
00:41:53
Matej
Yeah.
00:41:56
springboard
There's not, we're not taught this like math or science.
00:42:00
Matej
Yeah.
00:42:01
springboard
We're kind of lucky if we get them. And then if we can, in our adult years, have the humility to say, hey, I could improve upon my mindset and all of that, then you can perhaps gain them later.
00:42:03
Matej
Yeah.
00:42:14
springboard
Yeah, it's interesting to kind of hear.
00:42:14
Matej
yeah
00:42:17
springboard
And ah one thing that struck me was that people are implementing certain tools like research when you're just doing an enhancement. like that yeah that i really I would love to like dig more into that if you know I was talking to that person.
00:42:36
springboard
To me, I would think they're just not applying the right tools and re add strategies for that project because I've done enhancements and
00:42:43
Matej
Yeah, exactly.
00:42:45
springboard
I don't need to know someone's persona. I just know that a copy might need to be updated. like Yeah, the project I'm working on now definitely does not require research.
00:42:56
springboard
um That's so strange to me.
00:42:56
Matej
Yeah.
00:42:59
springboard
Interesting.
00:42:59
Matej
Yeah.
00:42:59
springboard
OK.
00:43:00
Matej
Design in general, I would say requires a lot more improvisation than, than we think, or that the design education teaches designers.
00:43:11
Matej
And as I said, right, communication. Communication is ah this key the key skill for for designers. And that includes writing as well as communicating in in person, right? Or through a video call. um And we're not focusing enough on that. And it reflects on portfolios, on case studies, but it also reflects on designer's work, right? And maybe that's why we're kind of in this slump in terms of the UX design industry.
00:43:42
Matej
where we we simply didn't weren't meeting the expectations on that other people at working at tech companies had from designers, right? Maybe we deserve that. I don't know. I don't have the answer to that. But I think as designers, as an industry, we can and we should do better in in terms of educating designers as well as performing as designers.
00:44:08
springboard
Certainly. Yeah. I know, um, I was definitely not, I would say I'm an okay writer. I'm would not say I'm proficient, but I just throwing this out there. One thing that helped me with my communication before I even knew about UX design at all, I thought I wanted to go to business school. So I was studying for the GMAT and there's a whole section in that test that teaches you grammar and business communication.
00:44:37
springboard
and just learning those rules, I realized how much more clear my writing could be.
00:44:42
Matej
Hmm.
00:44:42
springboard
So if anyone's listening, thinking of how they might learn to write better, if you want to study that portion of the GMAT, that's what helped me. So take a look at what you want.
00:44:53
Matej
Yeah.
00:44:54
springboard
On top of all the other work you're trying to do to get a job, you so no pressure, but that really helped me.
00:44:59
Matej
Yeah.
00:45:02
springboard
um Awesome. Well, another thing that you know you highlighted And I think you know people coming from boot camps, perhaps um undergraduate degrees, they have what are called cookie cutter portfolios.
00:45:16
Matej
Yeah.
00:45:16
springboard
And I know you've seen them.
00:45:18
springboard
um it's It's tough out there. I think you junior designers who are just coming out of a program, I don't think it's it's tough. A school teaches you perfect practice.
00:45:32
Matej
Yeah.
00:45:32
springboard
its i would love I this is not a problem I think I'm equipped to solve but I don't fault schools for doing that and then expecting students to go out there and break all the rules and kind of get creative with them but you know let's say you know you're coming out of a boot camp you do your project have you ever worked with students to kind of divvy up that case study to make it seem not so perfect
00:45:47
Matej
Yeah.
00:46:01
Matej
Yeah. And I think no matter what your experience level or where you are in your design career, if you've completed a bootcamp, if you completed an online course and you did some work,
00:46:16
Matej
Maybe it was in a safe environment, right? I never completed a bootcamp, but I know how school, schooling systems work in general, and it's generally a safe environment, right?
00:46:21
springboard
Yeah.
00:46:28
Matej
Where you were what do you do the stuff that you do, right? Even if you do some real life sort of scenarios and and projects, and they are always kind of defined and limited in a way.
00:46:42
Matej
But there there are always problems. in terms of communicating with other stakeholders, um trying to establish yourself as an authority, as a designer, especially for more junior designers, which someone just completing a bootcamp definitely is, right? why don't Why not write about those problems? How did you overcome them? Or how are you planning to overcome them? And I always recommend do some freelance work because that's completely different than doing something in in that safe environment. It's actually quite the opposite, right? Because clients are so unpredictable. Sometimes you work for someone that is brilliant, they get it, they understand design, and it's lovely to work with them. And then other times you think your you'll work on something great and it's terrible. And how you handle that, those are great learnings. And you can put all these things in a case study
00:47:40
Matej
as as as not as well as your cookie cutter stuff, right? um But I think someone explaining those things along a cookie cutter case study will have an edge, will have an advantage because they seem more genuine as a designer and they actually write about how they are learning and how they're growing to be a better designer. And that's that's what companies want. They don't want someone who comes in and does every time Every time they need to do something, they do the same thing. They don't need people like that, especially for designers. um And I'm talking about the the companies that are a bit more design mature, right? The low design maturity company, they will be happy with cookie cutter designers, right? um But if you want to elevate your work, elevate your career to a point, then you need to get to a better company. And those types of companies need people who show potential for growth, basically, right?
00:48:40
Matej
so that youre you don't stay on a junior designer level for five, six, seven, even 10 years, but actually gets to an intermediate level senior and from their own, right? um And you can't learn and you can't really grow if you don't recognize the mistakes you make, how if you don't recognize how messy the design process is and actually find a way to make it work for you and find a way to work for that company that you're actually working at as well because that has a huge impact on how you work and what you actually are able to get done as well as a designer, right? And you need to be able to adapt and if you can't adapt and if you can't grow, companies don't want people like that, right? It's as simple as that.
00:49:29
springboard
Certainly. Yeah. I know now and just from the polls I've been getting in the industry, getting a job right now is tough, but there's definitely a lot of, I think opportunity in getting side projects.
00:49:37
Matej
Yeah.
00:49:41
springboard
And I know again, I think it goes back to the sacrifices you were talking about. Like a lot of people I talked to, they're working full-time jobs trying to apply to get to UX. Like they're not in the most comfortable place.
00:49:55
Matej
yeah
00:49:55
springboard
And so picking up a ah side job that is probably going to be unpaid, um that's stressful.
00:50:02
springboard
But, you know, there is something in, like my one of my ideas when I finished my bootcamp, I knew the risks. I knew that I might not make it because you never know.
00:50:15
springboard
um But one of my plans was I run a lot of half marathons. And so I'm ah on a lot of these race websites, which are so poorly designed.
00:50:19
Matej
Hmm.
00:50:23
springboard
And I thought, well, why not reach out to some of these which are pretty much nonprofits and offer to redesign them? Like what a great way to integrate my interest with design and help out a company. um I didn't have to do that.
00:50:35
springboard
But yeah, I always encourage people like go out and find problems. um You know, talk to other entrepreneurs, talk to people who do a lot of freelance work.
00:50:39
Matej
Exactly.
00:50:45
Matej
Yeah.
00:50:45
springboard
Um, and see how you can offer their services.
00:50:47
Matej
Exactly.
00:50:48
springboard
Um, that's yeah, like it's not going to be a perfect linear path all the time. And if you truly, I think like design and want to be part of this community, um, it's tough when you're getting a lot of rejection and knows, but if you, I feel like, you know, this is where you want to be then, you know, just because you want to be somewhere doesn't mean someone's going to welcome you with open arms.
00:51:11
springboard
You can really improve yourself and, you know, everybody who I've talked to, who has struggled to get in the industry, they haven't just sat back and complained.
00:51:11
Matej
Exactly, yeah.
00:51:22
springboard
They've said, okay, well here, um here's where I am. Here's where I want to go. Let's, let's do some stepping stones. Um, there's been, there's been some tough times. There's a lot, a little bit of free work in there, which I'm not super for, but sadly you gotta get a little scrappy, I think.
00:51:37
springboard
So yeah.
00:51:37
Matej
Yeah, yeah, but that's definitely a way to kind of break into the next level, right? And there are a lot of websites these days um where you can find projects that you can work pro bono on, which is free work. But I took a look at a few of these websites and I sometimes recommend them to some of my students that don't have enough experience or enough work to put in portfolios. um And some of these projects are interesting.
00:52:10
Matej
And you can get some experience, you won't be paid for it, but it's better experience than you know working on ah on a project from a bootcamp or just redesigning Netflix or whatever, which nobody asked you to do.
00:52:25
Matej
And it's not informed by any any research or anything. It's definitely better to do that than than anything like that.
00:52:30
springboard
Yeah.
00:52:33
Matej
yeah
00:52:34
springboard
Yeah, yeah, certainly. Well, um as we mentioned, we did ask some springboard students what questions they have. And we got a really great one from Mickey. She asked, as a junior UX designer, should I focus on expanding my skill set or focus on mastering a smaller set of skills? So I didn't follow up with me. I don't know.
00:52:57
springboard
necessarily what junior means? that she Is she transitioning? Or is she just in her first year of the job? But yeah, what what do you think about that?
00:53:04
Matej
Yeah.
00:53:08
Matej
Let's say that it's a first year on the job, right? Because if someone transitions from a a different role, I think they're already expanding their skills, right? If you're transitioning from product management into design, you probably already have quite a bit of product management skills and now you're taking on the design work and you're learning design skills, right? So kind of already expanding. Let's say that it's a junior designer uh, within in the first year of the, of their career. And I will always recommend expanding first because that enables you to, to learn what you actually like about design. Right. Um, and it's like you, you get to do the more stuff that you get to do, like UX research, product design, data analytics.
00:54:04
Matej
um strategy, right design strategy, even management. um The more you experience, the more you know what you like. And then once you realize, once you find out the things that that you kind of like, then maybe decide to specialize or you know become a generalist. ah Those are the two traditional paths for for designers in their careers. I never decided to become a generalist. It kind of just happened. I think it just stems from my general curiosity. I'm just curious about everything. I want to know how things work and I want to learn them and then do them. ah But some people are not like that, right?
00:54:56
Matej
and They won't specialize, but it's better to specialize after you've experienced different things and then you narrow down, right?
00:54:58
springboard
Thank you.
00:55:07
Matej
Later later on in in your career.
00:55:10
springboard
Sure. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. and And this is an interesting question also because I read an article recently, you know, everyone, you're probably going to roll your eyes. I am so over people saying AI is going to like destroy humanity. We're not there yet. Anyways, this article is talking about um how with the emergence of AI, like obviously AI will become part of our working lives at some point.
00:55:38
springboard
I don't think it's going to go anywhere. Um, but as it makes, as more solutions with AI come out, as it gets more integrated into the UX process, it will kind of enhance the generalists.
00:55:52
springboard
So the generalist who's maybe good at two things and all right at four things.
00:55:57
Matej
Okay.
00:55:59
springboard
they might have some AI solutions to help out with those four things. What makes them really good at all of those things at once.
00:56:08
Matej
That's a really good point, yeah.
00:56:09
springboard
Yeah. So they were saying that with that, you know, being a, like I heard that the riches are in niches, specializations where a lot of the money is. Um, and the generalist is just kind of good, but you know, not always going to be in high demand, but now with AI and that, uh,
00:56:29
springboard
analysis or thinking that the generalists might become a bit more important.
00:56:34
Matej
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And another one that I can think of is sometimes I ask my students, what is your exit strategy? Do you want to be a designer for the rest of your life? Or do you want something else? right you know Do you want to have a career in design and then possibly start your own company? Because a lot of people that work in tech actually exit then the tech industry and start their own companies.
00:57:00
springboard
move
00:57:01
Matej
And if if you're thinking, maybe I want to start my own company someday, I think generalists are better placed to do that because they have a wider range of skills that an entrepreneur basically needs.
00:57:14
Matej
um So I think that's another aspect, but we're we were both kind of ah finding pathways for generalists.
00:57:22
springboard
Mm hmm.
00:57:22
Matej
I think there are numerous opportunities for special specialists as well. um I think you raised a good point because yeah, AI will learn to do things, will get better at what it does.
00:57:39
Matej
But I think it will never, not never, maybe someday, right? Someday in the future. But it will take it a while before they get to a level of a human artist, right?
00:57:52
springboard
Mm-hmm.
00:57:53
Matej
And if if you ask me, someone that does really good design illustrations, that's closer to being an artist than being a designer, right? um So yeah, I think AI, I mean, you can recognize, these days, you can easily recognize a an illustration generated by an AI, right? And I think that will remain for quite a while, maybe even forever, who knows? Because AI will always be fueled by human knowledge, right? And human skills.
00:58:26
Matej
That's how they designed it so far, at least. um And that means that humans will always be a step ahead of AI, and that includes art and design as well.
00:58:37
springboard
Right. And also to be able to work on AI. like I think about some of the problems I'm given at work. And let's say AI can just generate a user flow or um a lot of content. Being able to put that prompt, I can't use you know ah any generator at work because it's you know, all proprietary, but if I would, you know, I would just be another skill set of telling the machine what I need so that it can prompt me exactly what I want back.
00:58:59
Matej
Yeah.
00:59:06
springboard
And even when I just work with AI on my personal projects, I still catch typos.
00:59:07
Matej
Yeah.
00:59:12
springboard
It'll say things in a very cheesy way, way but just does not sound like me at all.
00:59:13
Matej
Exactly.
00:59:16
springboard
And again, I am not a writer. I i can write. I think I can communicate efficiently. But I'm not an expert wordsmith. And even I'm like, this is bad. So yeah, a I did think that was an interesting point of how AI can help us be more efficient.
00:59:36
springboard
And that's why I thought the article about being a generalist might become more of a more important than a unicorn designer.
00:59:36
Matej
Yeah.
00:59:45
springboard
But with that, yeah.
00:59:46
Matej
Yeah.
00:59:47
springboard
So um another question that we got that I thought was great. So talking about just using your portfolio to get hired, what else are you going to use your portfolio for? um We had got another question from Julie.
00:59:59
springboard
She said, she asked, I've been told the hiring managers spend less than a minute scrolling through a portfolio. If so, how can I maximize my portfolio to showcase that I have the skills they want? And I know we sort of touched upon that, um how hiring managers, unless they really know design, are going to look at things differently versus an actual design manager like you. um Yeah, like um want to let's like break that down. So like you have a hiring manager looking at this. What are they looking for? But then when the portfolio gets passed to someone like you, what are you looking for? like
01:00:36
springboard
I know we talked about a cool title, um scalability, a mix of copy and visuals.
01:00:39
Matej
Yeah.
01:00:43
springboard
What else could we, what else?
01:00:46
Matej
So you need two to three good case studies. um And I always recommend to my students, think of your case studies when it comes to what length they should be, right? Think of the case studies as movie trailers, right? They need to pick my interest enough so that I want to hear the full story.
01:01:09
Matej
and then you get to tell the full story in the job interview, right?
01:01:12
springboard
Mmm.
01:01:13
Matej
So it's like a movie trailer and okay, I want to watch this movie. It's basically the same, right? um So I always tell them try to aim to up to 10 minutes of reading time, which I think gets to around 1500 words.
01:01:31
Matej
um And it's better to have more case studies rather than just one really long one. So if you have tried to put your work in a case studies and you came out with just one really long case study, try to break it down. ah Try to find ways to to break it down and maybe even interconnect them, right? You can say in one case at the end, this is what happened next, right? And you link to the next case study. But this makes it easier to digest and scalable.
01:02:03
Matej
Because if I see a wall of text and it it says that it's it will take me 20 minutes to read, I don't have to 20 minutes. And it's true, right? the The first pass that you do on these portfolios, you give it up to one minute. um Sometimes even less. Sometimes it's even 30 seconds if you notice the common problems that we went through before, like quality issues and things like that. If I see pixelated images,
01:02:29
Matej
That tells me you're not attentive to details, right? And I need a designer that is attentive to details. Everyone does. um And yeah, we mentioned titles and we mentioned the hook, right?
01:02:41
Matej
The first sentence. And I think the context is key, right?
01:02:47
springboard
I
01:02:47
Matej
The context, especially for especially for designers that work at tech companies that are like cutting edge, right?
01:02:47
springboard
know.
01:02:57
Matej
Uh, I was reading the other day, a, um, case study about fraud detection. And I have no, I have no idea. I know what fraud detection basically is, but that's basically it. I don't know anything else about it. Right. Um, and then the designer i actually have it here. The first sentence is basically perfect. Right. And I'll read it. Um,
01:03:22
Matej
Picture yourself as the CEO of a well-known startup company that has been growing exponentially in the recent months. And that already kind of establishes the context of what the situation was that the designer was in, right? Or decide ah what the designer was designing for, actually. um And if you if you do that well and if you explain the things that you were trying to do and achieve and why and what the company is trying to do, that helps a lot, right?
01:03:58
Matej
So that I go through the case study, but because that's something that actually gets read ah at the very beginning, the problem, right?
01:04:05
springboard
Yeah.
01:04:06
Matej
Describe the problem that you are working on and what you were basically trying to do. And if you do that, well, it will convince me to spend more time on the case study, actually.
01:04:19
Matej
So it will be actually be more than a minute. And you're already gaining bonus points in that case, right? um So kind of my tolerance level gets higher. um I know it kind of sounds harsh and ruthless, but that's how it is, right? If you need to review hundreds of case studies, you can dedicate more than than on a minute to them. If you do, and if you notice quality issues like pixelated images, and you still read through the case study,
01:04:50
Matej
I mean, it's not really efficient, right? Because you need a designer that is attentive to details.
01:04:55
springboard
Again.
01:04:56
Matej
What else? um Let's go back to the question to see. Okay, so I have, how can I maximize my portfolio to showcase that I have the skills they want?
01:05:08
Matej
The other thing is playing the numbers game. I don't recommend doing that. And its it works, it can work.
01:05:20
Matej
but it will only get you a job in UX. It won't get you the job in UX that you will actually love. um So maybe it works for breaking into the industry, although I don't think so. I think it's much better to actually stand out in a way. And a way to stand out sometimes is to just address the company directly and possibly even adapt the the material that you attach to your job application, the the cover letter,
01:05:50
Matej
maybe even the resume and the the portfolio, right? So if you're applying to a tech company that does, I don't know, software development software, you, and you have some experience in there and you want to and emphasize that, right? You want to emphasize the the relevant experience. If you have five case studies, think which two or three are the most relevant to them.
01:06:15
Matej
and reference reference them in your cover letter as well, and possibly reference them in in the email that you send attached to that to the job of application. Anything that helps you stand out. And for designers, a lot of people ask me this, do I need a website? And I always say, you don't need it, but it's it's a bonus if you have it. And it's an even bigger bonus if it's a beautiful website. website right Again, we come back to that expectation for designers with that things need to be aesthetically pleasing, right? Because you're a designer, you will be expected to create things that are aesthetically pleasing. So if your website is beautiful, I know that you can do beautiful stuff, right? um So yeah, it's things like that that will help you stand out. And another thing would be character, right?
01:07:07
Matej
um well i It's much easier for me to, it may be not easier, but it's more interesting to me if I get to see what person is behind these case studies. And that you can do really well with the website again, because on our website, you can talk about the the hobbies that you have, the side projects that you have, um you know, the things that you do in your personal life. And people ask me, why, why is this interesting? And it's just,
01:07:43
Matej
you're putting you're reviewing a person and not just sort of a number, right? A job job applicant on that is almost anonymous, right? And side projects are important for designers because it's a great way to expand your skills and you know just learn new things. And definitely that it has an impact. If you have side projects that you mentioned in your portfolio, it will have an impact.
01:08:08
Matej
um I don't know if you say that you're a pizza enthusiast and you try a different pizza every, every week. Um, and you, you, I don't know, you write reports on it and you score these pieces from these different restaurants. That's kind of cool. I don't know. It's interesting, right? And again, it helps you kind of stand out, right? It's not just some blank person. Um, it's just a name and a surname applying. Um, I didn't know what it is or of what it's like for job applications and resumes resumes in in the US because I know that in the US you're not it is not recommended to attach a photo on your resume.
01:08:52
springboard
Really? Not attached portfolio?
01:08:55
Matej
No, not a portfolio, a photo, a photo of yourself.
01:08:57
springboard
Oh, excuse me. Yeah. Um, yeah, I hear mixed reviews. I, my guess is it just is due to, um, you know, just biases.
01:09:12
springboard
Um, I don't like to include one just because I don't need my fate.
01:09:12
Matej
Yeah.
01:09:18
springboard
You can look at my LinkedIn. And it's also, for it's me, it's just real estate. But yes, please continue. Yeah, it's comfortable here.
01:09:24
Matej
Yeah. And you said, please look at my LinkedIn, right? So that's the part that I don't get in some States. I know it's mandated by law. Actually it's not included photos on your resume.
01:09:34
springboard
Yeah. ah you
01:09:37
Matej
Um,
01:09:37
springboard
yeah
01:09:38
Matej
Yeah, and then I was reading ah up on it and some articles actually recommend that you don't include a photo on your resume if you're in the US and want to work in the US.
01:09:49
Matej
And then I don't get it. what How does it work like? Because I attach a resume to my job application, then I attach my but link to ah but my portfolio as well. And I quite likely include a photo of myself on my portfolio, right?
01:10:04
Matej
It's a tendency that designers do, right? So how does that work, right? You review the resume and then you go to see the portfolio and you see that folder, will you not still be kind of biased if if if we want to go that way, right?
01:10:04
springboard
right
01:10:18
Matej
So that, I don't know how that really works. I mean, it's, I guess some states trying to mandate some things that you can't really control 100%, right?
01:10:23
springboard
Right. Right.
01:10:31
springboard
right Yeah. i We actually had a really good episode with another person who experienced it with having his photo on his resume and ah portfolio.
01:10:41
Matej
Yeah.
01:10:43
springboard
His name is Kashif. The episode is teacher to UX design. um So he talked about, he kind of played with that idea a little bit. um It's hard.
01:10:53
springboard
it's It's not very conclusive because how do you know if someone's rejecting you based on your photo or hiring you because of your photo?
01:10:59
Matej
yeah
01:11:00
springboard
It's tough. I think there's just a lot of opinions. I haven't seen a lot of data or science-backed research on if it's good or not.
01:11:10
Matej
yeah
01:11:11
springboard
Yeah. I think it's just a lot of opinions that are going around.
01:11:14
Matej
Hmm. Yeah. So to my students that are US based, I recommend they don't include a photo of them in their resume, but they sometimes they will include a link to LinkedIn or their portfolio and there will be a photo there.
01:11:19
springboard
Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:26
Matej
And you know, that's, that's all you can do basically.
01:11:29
springboard
Yeah, I agree.
01:11:30
Matej
Right.
01:11:31
springboard
Yeah, I don't think people need to know what they look like. I don't have a photo. I don't think, I guess from what I have heard from my peripheral vision, it's on LinkedIn.
01:11:41
springboard
Yes, it makes sense because it's social media. We expect to see what someone looks like.
01:11:44
Matej
Yeah.
01:11:45
springboard
Kind of like you don't have a photo on your Facebook or your Instagram.
01:11:45
Matej
Yeah.
01:11:49
springboard
But otherwise, like we're just looking at qualifications and your looks unless you're a model and using your looks for a role. shouldn't matter.
01:11:59
springboard
So I don't think it's going to help you to have your photo.
01:12:00
Matej
Yeah.
01:12:03
springboard
um It would probably hurt you more.
01:12:06
Matej
Exactly.
01:12:06
springboard
So yeah.
01:12:06
Matej
Yeah.
01:12:07
springboard
Yeah. um One thing that I thought was interesting, you're saying how your case study should be like a movie trailer.
01:12:18
springboard
And I have been trained, and I'm not saying I'm right, but my interpretation of a case study, which they've probably been too long in the past, um it's every point must be validated and surmised. But what I'm kind of hearing um with this movie trailer and in the interview, you explain everything in more detail. It sounds like I could cut a lot more out of my portfolio in the sense of like, if someone's reading through it, they don't want to read a full essay in a way or something to prove a point, they kind of want to get a gist of the point. And then
01:12:53
springboard
in a conversation, I can fill in those details, almost like you'd give a PowerPoint presentation. Like your slides shouldn't say everything.
01:12:59
Matej
Yeah.
01:13:00
springboard
It should only have the key points.
01:13:02
Matej
The key points.
01:13:03
springboard
Did I go that way?
01:13:05
Matej
Yeah, ah we get back to that balance of visuals and text, right? And we also get back to the storytelling aspect. um you Sometimes I read case studies from my students, and they're OK in length, or sometimes they are too long.
01:13:23
Matej
And I then i recommend them and identify a point in their case study where they just gloss over a problem that they had to overcome. I tell them this is actually the interesting problem that possibly should write the case study about, right?
01:13:38
springboard
Yeah.
01:13:39
Matej
And we go from a cookie cutter case study to a more storytelling format that explains that the process that they went through, but they focus more on that particular problem, right?
01:13:51
Matej
And we were again talking about designers growing and learning and adapting, right? Which is what companies want. Um, so I think, yeah, it's, it's tough to get that balance right.
01:14:04
Matej
Um, but I, my recommendation is try to generally cover your design process, but then also have one point that you write about in details.
01:14:15
Matej
And that one point should be the core of your story that you're trying to tell.
01:14:19
springboard
Okay. Yeah.
01:14:20
Matej
Yeah.
01:14:21
springboard
And ah going off of that, that would definitely help someone who doesn't have a ton of experience, be able to break up their case studies just to have multiple.
01:14:31
springboard
So maybe they've only had one project that's really good quality, but to be able to break that up into two or three case studies that I feel like and might come off as a much more strong versus just one long case study that maybe you only worked on that project for three months, but visually it kind of looks like you have a bit more experience than you do.
01:14:36
Matej
Yeah.
01:14:45
Matej
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And you can write about free problems in more details and you can use the storytell storytelling format.
01:15:02
Matej
And again, we as a reviewer, I get to learn how you adapt it and how you overcome problems when you when you're facing them, basically.
01:15:12
springboard
Certainly, yeah. I know springboard students get put into an internship at the end of their program. So, and I know, you know, internships, they they vary.
01:15:19
Matej
Yeah.
01:15:23
springboard
My internship, um that owner quite honestly didn't really know what UX design was and what we could do. So that made for, it's no longer my portfolio since I now have professional work, but that case study very much made for an interesting telling of we had to explain what we could do in this scenario.
01:15:42
springboard
because it wasn't a cookie cutter, hair is an assignment, do it from school.
01:15:45
Matej
Yeah.
01:15:48
springboard
So fascinating.
01:15:50
Matej
Yeah. And I would love to read something like that from a designer that is coming from a bootcamp, much rather than that cookie cutter template stuff, right?
01:16:00
springboard
Yeah, yeah. And also I think it kind of shows that you're thinking a bit more ahead and not so much ah you're having your hand held and you can think of it for yourself
01:16:10
Matej
Exactly.
01:16:10
springboard
Again, going back to that communication skills of what people want to see or what you, not so much what people want to see, but just who you are and how you can communicate and get through those ideas, um which I think could translate.
01:16:11
Matej
Yeah.
01:16:24
springboard
Maybe you are a little junior and we have to teach you some hard skills at the company, but if you have that foresight and that knowledge to think ahead and break the rules now, what could you do at this company where we expect you to design things to make us money?
01:16:27
Matej
Yeah.
01:16:33
Matej
Yeah. Exactly. One aspect that I think we should cover when it comes to portfolios and case studies is recruiters, right? Because a lot of people ask me, okay, if I use the st storyingtell storytelling format, will it be okay for recruiters? Because they are the first people to review the case studies and the portfolios, right? And most of the time, and time they're looking for keywords like design system, UI design, visual design. um So I think that's that adds another layer of complexity that you you need to think about when you're writing your case study and when you when you're shaping your portfolio. But I think that should be secondary, right? You need to focus on telling your story and focusing on one problem that you solved. Try to focus also on your design process. And then i use use, you know, keywords and tags and
01:17:35
Matej
add them somehow into your resume and and your portfolio in your case study, but don't do the other way and start with the keywords and the tags, right? That the recruiters want to see.
01:17:48
springboard
Interesting. And I would also think the keywords could be on your resume as well.
01:17:52
Matej
Exactly.
01:17:53
springboard
like
01:17:53
Matej
Yeah. you You could, you could use the keywords in your achievements, right? And I think this is one thing that very few people do and very few people do well. People in general, but it applies to designers too, right? Below your job positions that you have, right, where that you write in your resume, it is highly recommended to include achievements. And when we say achievements, that doesn't mean ah you write about your responsibilities. It doesn't mean you write about, it yeah, I helped create the design system with the rest of the team, right? That's not an achievement. An achievement is I helped design that many components for the design system and it helps reduce development time by X percent or something like that, right? And I know sometimes designers won't have metrics like that.
01:18:48
Matej
but it doesn't need to be metrics, right? It can be, I helped establish a better design process at this company, which led to these outcomes, right?
01:18:54
springboard
Mm hmm.
01:18:59
Matej
And you can describe the outcome that is not metric centered. And yeah, you can use keywords there, right? Design systems, visual design, UI design, whatever.
01:19:11
springboard
Yeah. And like you said, the, uh, not the portfolio, the resume is the first thing people are going to look at. So that's, you know, I don't even know what that would be like.
01:19:17
Matej
Yeah.
01:19:21
springboard
What, what do you see before a movie trailer, but like the, like a highlight reel and then you see the, then the trailer comes out and then you get to see the whole movie.
01:19:27
Matej
Yeah.
01:19:29
springboard
So yeah, that's a great way to kind of summarize how people can distribute their qualities. Yeah. And like another reframing of how.
01:19:41
springboard
The resume can function in this job process. like Everyone thinks about the portfolio. I think designers like whatever about the resume, it's kind of like a nuisance. But it's a great way to think like, oh, OK, use the buzzwords.
01:19:51
Matej
Yeah.
01:19:54
springboard
Use the achievements here. And then me get your trailers ready in your portfolio.
01:20:01
Matej
Yeah, exactly.
01:20:02
springboard
Fantastic. Well, we are coming up on time. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about today that um you think is important to share?
01:20:11
Matej
nothing Nothing in particular, but I would just say to you to your listeners that you know it was never easy to break into design. When I was breaking into design, and the way I did it was to buy a book on Photoshop and learned how to use Photoshop through a book, right?
01:20:32
springboard
Incredible. Now we have to talk for that.
01:20:33
Matej
And we were exactly, exactly. And that's, that's how we did design back then, right? We used Photoshop, which is software for, you know, photos, basically.
01:20:45
Matej
And now we have better tools. There are a lot more better resources out there where you can learn a lot of things for, you know, very little money, sometimes a lot of good resources and just not to get discouraged.
01:21:00
Matej
by by rejections. And if if you're constantly getting rejected, then you probably need to change something. And that means that you just need to inform yourself on how we can do better, basically.
01:21:12
springboard
Certainly. Yeah, I was reading this great book. It's called Think Again. I believe the author's name is Adam Grant. And it's really she's you.
01:21:20
Matej
Yeah.
01:21:21
springboard
Have you read it?
01:21:22
Matej
I haven't read it, but I've read books by Adam Grant and I've loved them.
01:21:27
springboard
Yeah, um I love this book was very much an impulse buy. This is a problem I have. I'll just see books. and hold them I love books. um But yeah, this was very much an impulse five. It's really like change.
01:21:40
springboard
I don't want to say you changed my life. That sounds dramatic. But yeah, he really emphasized people like lifelong learners love failing, or when they're wrong, they're excited about it.
01:21:43
Matej
yeah
01:21:50
springboard
So yes, I think, especially in design, where the field is constantly changing. I encourage people to just do like how you said, when someone doesn't want you to do research at your company, just do it anyway, like what what you're gonna learn something from it, if someone really wants to stop you, they will.
01:22:04
Matej
Yeah. Yeah.
01:22:08
Matej
Exactly, yeah.
01:22:08
springboard
You know, Well, you're going to learn something from it. And whether it's a good thing, a bad thing, like I've definitely designed things that bombed, but I, you know, I'm putting together some case studies myself. That's exciting. Like I at least learned something about the customer. When something goes wrong, you know, they'll tell you.
01:22:27
Matej
Yeah. Yeah. That's the purpose of the X research, right? And that's why we should do it.
01:22:31
springboard
Yes. Well, Matei. Um, I'm, this has been a wonderful conversation. Um, I've learned something. I'm sure others will definitely learn something from it as well. As we constantly are iterating on our portfolios.
01:22:45
springboard
Why do we, why do we pick a profession that we have to have a portfolio? Right. But that being said, you know, I'm sure people would love to be in contact with, are you open to people connecting with you on social media?
01:22:55
Matej
Definitely.
01:22:56
springboard
Yeah. Um, what is the best way to get in contact with you?
01:23:00
Matej
You can you know reach out to me straight via email or via LinkedIn. I try to reply to as many messages that I get, but I can't always reply to all of them.
01:23:12
Matej
As I said, i'm I'm a busy father of twins and running my own company at the same time and mentoring designers, which also takes up quite a few hours.
01:23:18
springboard
Yeah.
01:23:22
Matej
um So yeah, I try to reply. Um, but I can't promise that I always reply, but definitely LinkedIn email, uh, that works.
01:23:30
springboard
Sure. Well, for now, let's start with LinkedIn. Um, could you please spell your first and last name so that people can add the correct Matei Latin?
01:23:33
Matej
Yeah.
01:23:40
Matej
Yeah, sure. It's M E M A T E J L A T I N.
01:23:45
springboard
Fantastic. And I know I, you know, just when I saw your posts and added you, I was able to find your email information within your website. So there are ways to get in touch with you.
01:23:54
Matej
Yeah.
01:23:56
springboard
um And also, you know, the book better web type, I definitely want to check it out as a book lover. So again, thank you so much. um I am so happy that you responded to my email.
01:24:10
springboard
And we got to have this great conversation to share with everyone.
01:24:13
Matej
Yeah, I'm happy that I joined for this conversation.
01:24:13
springboard
and
01:24:16
springboard
ah Well, with that being said, you know again, for the billionth time, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story. And for anyone listening, if you would like to reach out to me um or be connected to Matei, please email me at alumnipodcastatspringboard.com.