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Customer Success Specialist to Product Designer
50 Plays8 months ago
Are you looking to switch roles within your current company? This episode is for you!
Jennifer, an associate product designer at Paradigm, shares advice on how to advocate for yourself at your own company (if you want to switch roles in that company) because that's what she did. She also shares how she successfully negotiated a significant amount more than she was initially offered.
Before embarking on a career in design, where she designs SaaS products for attorneys in the legal space, she worked for five years as a customer success specialist for various software companies.
Follow her on TikTock @jendesignsstuff
For everyone listening, if you have any questions for Jennifer or myself that could be answered on a future episode, please email me at [email protected].
Interested in finally taking the plunge by starting your career in tech? How does $1500 off a Springboard Career Track Course sound?
Use code EPEHT at checkout to save $1500.
Learn more here.
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Transcript
Introduction to Jennifer
00:00:13
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Life After Tech Bootcamp. Today I'm really excited to talk to a fellow UX designer, Jennifer. In 2022, Jennifer graduated from the Springboard program with a certificate in UI and UX design. Before embarking on a career in design, she worked for five years as a customer success specialist for various software companies.
00:00:37
Speaker
Currently, she is an associate product designer at Paradigm, where she designs SaaS products for attorneys in the legal space. She helped create two design systems from scratch for two separate products in the past year, conducts user research and user interviews, and frequently designs new features for the company from start to finish.
00:00:58
Speaker
Hi Jennifer, welcome to the podcast. Hey, yeah, thank you for having me.
Economic Impact on Bootcamps
00:01:03
Speaker
Yes, and I'm really excited to talk to a fellow UX designer as always, but I was reading just a few days ago that people are starting to say, boot camps are on the down and people are starting to say that they're not quite as valuable as they once were. And I was really curious to get your opinion on that. For me, I feel like we're just in a really turbulent
00:01:28
Speaker
economy, companies aren't hiring quite as much and I think there are some quality bootcamps out there and I think we both really have
00:01:37
Speaker
succeeded from Springboard. But yeah, it was just a lot of really interesting perspectives on that. And I'm really curious to get yours. Yeah, sure. I'm part of a lot of Facebook groups where designers will talk about this or LinkedIn groups and things like that. There's a lot of forums online where people complain. But yeah, I agree. I definitely think it's really hard to get a job right now. And that's probably why people are saying that
00:02:07
Speaker
Maybe they're nervous about doing a boot camp or they don't know if that's the right thing for them. I mean, with the economy the way it is, I think it's always going to ebb and flow, so it's not always going to be like this. I do think the job market is really rough right now for people in tech, but eventually that's not going to be how it is anymore. I really don't think it's going to stay this way forever.
Choosing the Right Bootcamp
00:02:33
Speaker
I don't know. I've seen people ask this question in, there's a great group on Facebook called Women in UX. I've seen a lot of people ask the same question there. And I mean, there are some designers that are telling people like, yeah, this is not the right time to go into it. But I don't really agree with that. Because I think like, for me, sounds cheesy. But like, I really, really feel like I found the job for me. And I think I'm in the right place. And I looked around.
00:03:02
Speaker
for a long time before I decided to do a bootcamp to figure out what I wanted my career to be. And so I did a lot of research on different things and I feel like this is like the best decision I ever made. So I would never want to tell people like don't do what you want to do. I just think you should do your research. Like I did springboard the bootcamp and it was great. I definitely got a lot out of it. The curriculum was awesome.
00:03:29
Speaker
Um, I also did a lot of extra work though, outside of the bootcamp to figure out like what I should be doing, who I should be talking to, to be a better designer. Um, and so I think some boot camps, you know, they might be predatory. I've seen a lot of ads for boot camps that say things like, Oh yeah, you can get a job in, you know, five months or whatever. And that's just not true. Like it's not a get rich quick scheme. Um, it's a career and you have to be good at it and you have to work at it, but, um,
00:03:58
Speaker
Overall, I think if you pick...
00:04:01
Speaker
a bootcamp that is gonna give you a great curriculum and maybe a good networking experience. If you work really hard, like I know everyone says that, but like if you work really hard, I think that there's definitely a place for you. I think it's just that a lot of people might not realize how much work it is, or they might have things going on in their life where they're just not able to commit to a bootcamp or something like that, and then it doesn't go well for them. So I think it just really depends on what's happening.
Passion and Misconceptions in UX Design
00:04:30
Speaker
Yeah, I loved your phrase. It's not a get rich quick scheme. I think some people do, you know, they're maybe not in the best job and they see, oh, you can get a six figure salary straight out of a bootcamp, which kind of sounds like a dream come true. And for some people that has been their dream. However,
00:04:48
Speaker
like you say, you know, and you did your research, I did my research, it truly is something you have to know that is right for you, which you also express. I know we were talking before about another person who I interviewed on the podcast, Rachel, I think she's really iterated a lot that
00:05:09
Speaker
It's not just a job you do for the money. You have to really be passionate about it. You have to want to constantly learn and practice UX and almost make UX your own personal mindset. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. It's definitely a mindset. There's a lot of psychology that goes into being good at UX, like actually thinking about it. But the cool thing about UX is that
00:05:37
Speaker
Because of that, because psychology plays so much into that, it can really help you solve even problems in your real life. Because when you do the job, your goal is to use design to solve a problem.
00:05:52
Speaker
So it's really just about problem solving. It's not really about something looking pretty on the screen at the end of the day. So like you can use the design process to make like your own daily routine better or like improve relationships. Like you can use it to just solve problems in general. And so it's really cool because it is a mindset. Like if you actually take that with you into your other aspects of your life, it can really
00:06:18
Speaker
help improve those things too, which is really fascinating. Certainly. Yeah, I definitely can relate to that. I think one thing my mentor taught me when we were talking about design and talking about other people's work, instead of going right into saying, this looks bad or this doesn't look good, understand why the design was
00:06:41
Speaker
designed that way or built that way. And I've applied that a lot to my personal friendship. So if someone's acting in a way that's not really the best, I try to understand where they're coming from first. And I feel like it's just made me like have better interactions overall, as well in my personal life and in my profession.
Jennifer's Journey into UX
00:07:04
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Well,
00:07:06
Speaker
all great stuff. And I know we're going to dig into a little bit more about how hard you work to get to where you are. But before we get there, I'd love to know what you were doing before you decide to pursue UX design.
00:07:20
Speaker
Yeah, so right before I was working in customer success, the first job I got in tech ever was for a healthcare company. So they made software for hospitals. And that was like before the pandemic that was in person in an office and it was a pretty big, it was a bigger company. It was like 3000 people at the company. So it was a little more corporate.
00:07:43
Speaker
And honestly, I was just really excited to be doing anything in tech. I come from a background where I grew up in a small town. I didn't really know a lot of people in tech. I didn't really have a ton of resources. People were not learning how to code at all at my high school. That was not even offered. I didn't know what design was. So I just felt like I didn't really have a lot of knowledge about what existed, and I didn't know
00:08:11
Speaker
what I wanted my career to be. So I went to school for psychology, but I, I ended up realizing I didn't want to do that. Like I didn't want to be a therapist. Um, and so I just, I didn't really know what to do. So I went into customer service. So I feel like that kind of makes sense. I wanted to help people, you know, different levels of therapy. Yeah. It's like therapy, you know, people call you and they want you to solve their issues. So I was like, okay, I guess this makes sense. So I ended up doing that for a tech company. And that's basically how I got into tech. Um,
00:08:42
Speaker
And then I ended up becoming a little more interested in like the technical side. So I learned like they had their own I think it was like a proprietary code or something that they use like they didn't use, you know,
00:08:57
Speaker
JavaScript or Python, it was like their own code base that the founder created. And so I couldn't take that knowledge anywhere with me really, but I did start to learn how to do that. And that got me really interested in like, how is software made? Like, how do you actually make this? And so
00:09:13
Speaker
Then I went to my company that I'm at now. But again, I was doing customer success and customer service. So I did that for a while. And I ended up just kind of feeling like, OK, I've done this at two companies now for a while. And I just kind of got burnt out with it. I was like, well, I like helping people. But I kept having this situation where the fix or the solution for them would be to just create a new feature or make the product better.
00:09:43
Speaker
And I was like, I think I need to make the thing. I think I need to create the thing because that's usually the solution. I don't want to just be supporting the software. I want to actually make it. And I felt creative. I've always been kind of artsy and stuff like that. So I just wanted to do something more like that.
00:10:07
Speaker
And I learned a lot. Like I, at first when I started at the other company, I feel like it was a totally new world, didn't know anything. And at this point I felt like, okay, I've been doing this for a few years. I really feel like I know what the customers need and what they want and like maybe how we should think about building it or something, but I didn't know what to do with that. So.
00:10:28
Speaker
I started to learn how to code during the pandemic. And just a side note for anyone listening, if you want to learn that stuff, I did CS50, which is a really great program online, but it's through Harvard. So it is a Harvard level class. It's a real class. And you can actually do it for free through EDX, just a side note. So that's what I did. And it was great. It gives you the foundations of everything.
00:10:59
Speaker
And you can pay for a certificate if you want the certificate. So I ended up getting a certificate in web design through that. And I just kind of realized, you know what? This is cool. But I don't want to code eight hours a day. That just was not what I wanted to do for my career. I just didn't love it enough. I wasn't super invested in it. But that's eventually how I found design, because I realized I really enjoyed front end. And I liked thinking about what was going to be the easiest thing for the user, what was going to
00:11:28
Speaker
you know, what are they gonna click on? Why are they going to click on it? How do we get them to click this thing and not something else? So I really liked the way it looked and, you know, doing more work on that piece. So I ended up researching design and that's basically how I made the decision. I just loved it. There was nothing about it that I didn't really like. And the more I did research on it, the more I found that. And I was like, I thought this was fake. I was like, this can't be real.
00:11:58
Speaker
I can't. I was like, there's got to be something wrong with this career. Like I just, but it was just so perfect for me with my background.
00:12:08
Speaker
So I just didn't find anything wrong. And I was like, all right, I guess I'll do a boot camp now. And so that's what I did. And I even told this will probably go into a question you might ask me later, but I told my manager while I was working in customer success that I really wanted to be a designer and that I was doing a boot camp. And she really believed in me and she was really great. Like she encouraged me to talk to other people at the company just to make sure that
00:12:38
Speaker
I would have a chance at maybe being a designer there when the bootcamp ended. So I advocated for myself a lot and here we are. Yeah. Well, so many questions, but first of all, I love how this was a very organic experience. And as I've said, multiple times, like a fall down the rabbit hole. And I can completely relate to how this career seems a little bit too unreal.
00:13:04
Speaker
I just struggling in fashion, we don't take customer feedback and my role in fashion was to make sure the garments fit correctly. Yeah, constantly things just would not fit because bodies are coming all shapes and sizes. Even 10 women who are classic with the industry's terms as a size six are all going to
00:13:27
Speaker
fit differently in the same shirt. So it was really frustrating, but I still loved the process of creating things kind of like you liked helping people. When I found out there was a whole industry where I could create things that was based off of user feedback and user research, I thought sign me up. Yes. So I love that you also had that experience too. I don't know about you, but it sounds like you kind of were
00:13:55
Speaker
On the right path, I volleyed back and forth. I knew I wanted to get out of fashion, but I had no idea what I wanted. And it took me a couple of years to really figure it out. So when I found UX design, I felt like a sense of relief. Yeah. No, I mean, I definitely didn't know what I wanted for a bit. I even looked into what to do to become a dietician in a hospital. I was just looking into all these different things that I thought I might like.
00:14:24
Speaker
Because again, with doing something like that, you're helping people at the end of the day. And I had worked in healthcare software. So I was like, all right, I'm kind of interested in this and I, I care about nutrition and all that stuff. So yeah, I mean, I think everyone's journey is really different.
00:14:41
Speaker
But at the end of the day, I knew I wanted to stay in tech. I think there's just a lot of opportunities. You can get paid really well. It's also pretty rewarding. Like you can usually you can see, you know, the feedback of how people liked it or, you know, did you do something that really bettered their experience? So I wanted to stay in tech. Certainly, certainly. And that is a wild journey, but at least that stone was unturned and
00:15:11
Speaker
you know, being a nutritionist was not right for you. So you've discovered UX, you realize it's the right path for you. What led you to springboard and made you realize that that was the course for you?
00:15:27
Speaker
Yeah, so I did look into a college program, and I already have a degree in psychology. And so I didn't really want to go back to school. I also didn't want to pay for that. I was like, that's a lot of money. Also, it would probably be four years to get a degree in something, which
00:15:49
Speaker
was a long time. And that was mainly why I did not choose that, aside from also the money aspect. But I really didn't want to take out a loan. Luckily, right now, I'm at a point in my life which is great where I don't have loans. So I'm like, OK, let's keep it that way. So I really didn't want to do that.
Bootcamp vs. University Education
00:16:11
Speaker
And then I also found that a lot of colleges, they don't have, well, at least for tech,
00:16:19
Speaker
even computer science courses, they're not always like super up to date. So this is my kind of what I figured out or at least my opinion of balancing a boot camp in college. So I view college as or a university as making you an expert on a specific subject.
00:16:38
Speaker
And I view boot camps as you're not going to be an expert on that subject when you leave, but the point of a boot camp is to get you a job at that specific point in time in that specific industry. So when you go to college, I know everyone wants a job, but that's not actually what college is really preparing you for. It's four years, usually for a degree program. So you're gonna be more of an expert on the information.
00:17:04
Speaker
And boot camps, you know, they stay up to date tech moves very fast. They need to stay up to date with what the latest frameworks are the latest tools like in design Figma Adobe XD, all those things like, you know, they're not
00:17:19
Speaker
they're probably not going to teach adobe xd anymore for example they're going to teach figma because that's really more of a standard now but like two years ago that wasn't really true so i definitely wanted a boot camp because i figured that out i was like okay well the goal is to get a job i can keep educating myself as time goes on why would i pay you know thousands and thousands of dollars for a degree program that might not actually get me a job and a lot of boot camps also were
00:17:49
Speaker
offering things like career coaching, networking, that honestly, a lot of college programs that are cheaper, they just can't provide that. So that's how I decided I wanted to do a boot camp, and then I just researched a bunch of them. So Springboard really stuck out to me, though, because it involves at the end of the curriculum, you can basically get paired with a real company.
00:18:14
Speaker
So I knew I wanted that because I don't know at the time. I didn't know many designers. I didn't have any way of getting to know people at tech companies outside of just the one I already worked for, really. So I knew that real world experience was going to be very important. And it's about a month long. So I would at least have that amount of experience if I did springboard. And it also just checked all the boxes for me.
00:18:42
Speaker
You get career coaching, you can talk to them once a week if you want to. You also get a mentor, a separate person that you do talk to once a week throughout the entire program. So you have a relationship with someone who is a successful designer already.
00:19:01
Speaker
And then aside from that, you still get that real world, kind of like an internship, that real world experience. And I didn't see that internship style stuff on other boot camps. So that was really what did it for me. I knew I wanted to do springboard. I agree. The internship was key. And knowing, I don't know what your experience was like. Well, first of all, I agree that college really sets you up to be an expert in a subject. It doesn't really
00:19:30
Speaker
teach you how to get a job, at least my undergraduate didn't. I learned everything to get a job from my senior year internship. But I also felt that that is what got me the job, that internship experience. Coming from design, it's this tricky thing where you sort of need experience, but you have to get experience. It's so frustrating. So I knew that internship would be something
00:19:59
Speaker
that make me a lot more marketable. But that being said, what was your IDP like?
Real-world Experience at Springboard
00:20:05
Speaker
And for those of you who don't know, Springboard has a program called the Industry Design Project, IDP, and it pairs you with a company. So you can do an actual hands-on project that's not just schoolwork. So what was your IDP like?
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah, so my IDP was a healthcare startup and they didn't have a lot of people working for them, obviously, because they're a startup. But it was really good experience because it is a startup and a lot of people in tech when they need a job, they end up working at a startup at some point. And working at a startup is completely different from corporate.
00:20:44
Speaker
So it was really, really good experience. And I think I was paired with three other women who were all in the design program. And so we ended up working on the home screen for this mobile app for the software.
00:21:03
Speaker
We also looked at the like in the browser the website that they had so like the landing page and they also had like after you log in look kind of like a I don't want to call it a portal but you know the the website for that but they didn't have the mobile app done at all so we focused on that a lot. There were so many things that we could do for them that it was actually really hard for us to pick and choose what to do and
00:21:32
Speaker
I think the biggest experience, like the greatest part of that experience though, was learning how to, how do I put this, like how to make decisions and be very confident in like driving the project forward. Because the startup that we worked with, they didn't really know design. Obviously they're not designers, right? They're having designers come in to help them, so that makes sense.
00:22:01
Speaker
It didn't seem like they had a lot of experience working with designers before, and this is a weird thing that I think a lot of designers don't realize right away, which is that you're supposed to be the expert. And I think for me, coming in from a very different background, that was really weird. I was more used to people telling me what to do, and now I had to be the one to
00:22:25
Speaker
be the leader and tell people, yeah, you should do this. This should look like this, and here's why. So it really helps you to explain your decisions. There was also some disorganization. We had to set up all the calls for this project with the startup. The four of us had to really work as a team and figure out what we were all going to work on. There needs to be four things every week for us to work on.
00:22:52
Speaker
and how we were going to segment out these weeks of work. A lot of it was even just not even the design work. It was the organization that it taught us how to do. And I noticed that there were two people in the group that were kind of holding back. They weren't really as confident. They weren't talking as much. And so I think that's just another thing to think about is
00:23:18
Speaker
you need to learn how to be more confident because we didn't know what we were doing.
Advocating for Design Decisions
00:23:24
Speaker
I mean, we're not really designers yet. You just have to wing it and you have to just learn how to say, okay, I might fail. I might put forth an idea that this startup hates and maybe it doesn't work. But you have to own that meeting. You have to be the leader of those design review meetings.
00:23:43
Speaker
So I think that's the biggest thing that I learned. It wasn't even the design part. It was just like how to work with a team of people and how to get buy-in from the CEO or whoever you're working with and to kind of convince them that what you're showing is going to be the best experience.
00:24:06
Speaker
I agree, and getting that buy-in, I have often found, so I've done enterprise, I've done startups, and it's interesting how a lot of stakeholders think, because designers, I think we make our job look really easy. So even today, I had a project manager suggesting content for a new experience I'm building, and I had to really push back and say, you know, that's
00:24:35
Speaker
in the most professional way, like I have to get our content strategist approval. You can't just do this for me. And I know that, you know, writing a title for a modal doesn't seem like a big deal, but how you phrase something
00:24:50
Speaker
really determines how people are going to read and interact with the experience we're trying to build. Absolutely. So yeah, I've seen situations where like one word on a button completely makes the experience not make any sense to anybody in a usability test. And it's like if they had just included that one word on the button, like suddenly you do usability tests with that and then everyone understands what they're supposed to do.
00:25:14
Speaker
It's just wild that people don't realize that there's all these little things that have huge impact. Yeah, and that's if you can get someone to do user testing. I've had stakeholders that just do not understand why it's necessary. They don't understand why only spot testing something with five people is
00:25:38
Speaker
enough to draw a conclusion from. And it's not that these people are unintelligent, but it's just not their job to know this. So yeah, I think you really hit the nail on the head of having to really advocate for the work you're doing. But then there's also that element of having to compromise. Within the same experience that I just described, I felt I had a really great idea, but
00:26:06
Speaker
with the state of this specific experience, they're trying to get something really rushed out to get their numbers up for a specific sale. And my idea would take weeks or months to implement, whereas they need something for the next quarter, which means they have to get things into development yesterday. I kid you not, it's wild. So understanding that compromise too, and realizing that you're not always going to get
00:26:33
Speaker
exactly what you designed because of so many different factors is a hard pill to swell at first but eventually you do I think it's kind of satisfying negotiating in the end of the day.
Communicating Career Goals
00:26:46
Speaker
So with that being said you were working at I guess you were you were a
00:26:58
Speaker
a customer success specialist at Paradigm, but then you talk to your manager about, you know, getting into design. So I'm curious, I know you start, what was the timeline? Did you mention this to your manager, then start Springboard and that like, what, what was that process like? Because you clearly, you know, ended up being a designer at Paradigm. So I'd love to hear about that.
00:27:23
Speaker
for lack of better words, job hunt strategy, because it's not like a typical bootcamp student who goes through the process of applying and networking. Yeah, yeah, I think this can definitely help if anyone wants to move around in their company that they specifically work at now, and it might have a designer or developer or whatever you want to be. I did decide to do the bootcamp first, so I started Springboard
00:27:50
Speaker
And I think I was like two months in. And I reached a point where I was like, OK, I know I'm definitely going to stick with this. I know I'm going to finish. This is where I should be. So I made sure that this was really my goal. And then I did tell my manager at that point. And I just said, I phrased it like, hey, I'm not leaving any time soon. I like it here a lot. But I just wanted you to know this is my long-term career goal.
00:28:16
Speaker
and she immediately understood she was very happy for me and she you know she saw that i took initiative i was already enrolled in this program and that's when she said oh yeah talk to the director of you know product or or whatever like she really started encouraging me to speak to other people um about my intentions so my advice for people who might be trying to do the same is
00:28:41
Speaker
Figure out if your company is a safe space to do that. Some companies, they want to keep you in your lane and they don't really want you to move around. I found that most companies are not like that anymore, but there are some companies that are. So figure that out. And you can also talk to other people who are your peers. Try to figure out if anyone in your company has moved around. So maybe they were in customer service and then they eventually became a developer or they went to
00:29:10
Speaker
QA or marketing or you know something else You know just try and notice if there are people that move around and if there aren't maybe ask yourself Okay, like maybe this actually isn't something that will be possible here so basically figure that out like figure out if if it is possible for you to move around in the first place because you might actually want to go to a different company eventually if you can't but what I did was
00:29:39
Speaker
I was very upfront with my manager but like very polite and then I started talking to the VP of product at the time because that was that was the person that would eventually be my boss if I was to become a designer and so and she was just really great she was very supportive also she actually
00:30:03
Speaker
I was so lucky. She actually set up calls every couple of months while the boot camp was happening. And she was like, OK, so you still want to be a designer, right? Just making sure. And I was like, yeah. And it was really nice. She actually cared about my progress and wanted to know. I didn't even have to set up the call. But what I would say for people is that that's very rare. And I have a colleague that I had previously
00:30:32
Speaker
And he really wanted to move up and be a manager in a different department and he thought he was advocating for himself and he really wasn't. I think he believed that he was talking about what he wanted to the right people.
00:30:49
Speaker
Um, but I could see that like he really wasn't like the, he would talk to like one person and then that person, they might even leave the company. So then another person comes in, in that position. And I think he just got like very discouraged, but, um, definitely keep advocating for yourself because usually other people will not do that for you.
00:31:10
Speaker
So that would be my main point of advice, like just be very upfront about what your long term goals are while still doing your job well, because you know, you want them to respect you. But I think that's probably the best thing is just to always advocate for yourself. Certainly. Well, one thing I heard about your story, and obviously, I don't know this other gentleman's story, but
00:31:33
Speaker
It sounds like you got the ball rolling and you had essentially some bullet points as to why you wanted to get in design. And you came in with intent and kind of like some evidence as to like, this is a long-term goal. This is what I'm doing. And I wonder if this coworker of yours just kind of asked for something without really showing the work and
00:32:02
Speaker
how he got his ball rolling to get to where he wanted to go. Do you think that may have been the case?
00:32:07
Speaker
I'm not really sure, because he was very smart, very capable. I think he just wasn't loud enough. I think that you really kind of have to remind people of what you want, because no one else is going to give it to you. You have to take it. You have to be very intentional about what you want and be loud about what you want. And you can still do that very professionally and politely.
00:32:37
Speaker
You know, I was never telling people that I didn't want to do my job, you know, like I was still doing my job. And I was think I was doing it well, you know, but I was always honest about what my intentions were and I think
00:32:53
Speaker
I think he wasn't really seeking out the right people at a certain point, and he just wasn't reminding them of what he wanted. It eventually paid off for him, though. He got the position that he wanted, but it just took a very, very long time, and he, I think, was discouraged for a while.
00:33:10
Speaker
Sure, sure. And I'd sound I feel like that's just a tough water to navigate. Like if you've never really had that example set for you. Yeah, I could see that being just I'm sure he learned a lot from that experience, though. Yeah, yeah, I think so. But anyways, this episode is about you. So you that's really awesome that you were getting these kind of mentoring calls with the head of design.
00:33:40
Speaker
I would love to hear, so you finished the IDP. What was the next step? You finished this bootcamp. How did you go and follow up with the VP of design and say, hey, I'm ready. Let's go.
00:33:57
Speaker
make me a designer here? Yeah, so I eventually had a job interview, basically, which was like a design challenge.
Design Interview and Salary Negotiation
00:34:07
Speaker
So they gave me a problem that was a real problem that they wanted solved in the product, which was nice. And I basically had to make designs.
00:34:22
Speaker
I forget exactly what they were looking for exactly, but I ended up making designs that looked kind of high fidelity. They were not black and white wireframes. They were somewhat high fidelity. But I presented it to a bunch of the product managers and the VP of product. And I was very nervous, but they liked it a lot. And that was pretty much it.
00:34:52
Speaker
basically a real job interview to make sure I was like, okay at doing this. And then I passed and they really liked it. They didn't really have a lot of negative feedback at all. They did have one comment, but that was pretty much it. And I just thought that was amazing. I was very, very happy.
00:35:15
Speaker
Yeah, so then they told me that the next year, like the next January, I could start because my graduation date from the boot camp was around like October or November. So they agreed to start me like in the next year, around January. So then we did like a negotiation, like I got the, you know, the salary stuff. And I signed the paperwork and then I started my job.
00:35:44
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I remember in your interviews or your pre-interview and then in your survey, you said that you negotiated a pretty sizable raise. And let's be honest, talking about money for the most part is awkward. It's not an easy conversation, but let's talk about how you made it easy. Um, if you're comfortable, obviously you don't have to share your salary if you don't want to.
00:36:12
Speaker
But I'd love to kind of know the steps you took to negotiate a big pay increase. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I don't know exactly what's considered high or low anymore, to be honest, because of the pandemic. And now the job market is very different. I also work remotely. So right now, a lot of remote jobs are also a bit on the lower side, just because companies are assuming that they don't need to pay
00:36:41
Speaker
you know, for you to live in San Francisco or New York or something like that. Obviously, if you get a job where you're commuting into San Francisco or New York City, they should be paying you a lot. So I think it really depends on where you are. But anyway,
00:36:55
Speaker
Yeah, so for the negotiation, I guess for tips, I would say they're not going to tell you that you can negotiate usually. That's not something that happens. So I only knew all this stuff because of the bootcamp. There's a whole section on salary negotiation, how to do it. And I also did some research just Googling different things
00:37:23
Speaker
So when I went in, I knew how to prepare, and I actually prepared a mini presentation or something. So I had data, and I looked at Glassdoor and salary.com, and I had all this data that I showed people.
00:37:43
Speaker
So I just I basically treated it like I was about to give a presentation and I made sure that I even practiced a little bit because this was the first time that I was ever like really negotiating my salary. So I just wanted it to go well.
00:38:01
Speaker
sounds nerdy, but it paid off. So I did a lot of research on what I feel I should be making as more of a junior designer in this field. And then I had the actual hard numbers. So it was kind of hard for them to argue against that because I was saying, well, this is what everyone's making.
00:38:24
Speaker
And so I was able to negotiate higher. They always say that you should ask for a number that's slightly higher than what you think you'll actually get, so that is what I did.
00:38:36
Speaker
And so the number that I did end up getting was pretty much right in the middle. So it was right in the middle of what they were offering, which was lower. And then the higher end of what I was looking for, it ended up landing right in the middle. And so I accepted. I was just like, yeah, yeah, that's great. Thank you. I understand how it goes. So it was good.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah, did they give you a number and then you negotiate higher, or was this the first time you ever talked about your salary? Yeah, they did give me a number. So they had like a, I guess like an offer letter, if you want to call it that. And so the way the way I did it, because I think people have questions about it, is we had a meeting on zoom.
00:39:19
Speaker
And then she sent over the, well, actually, OK, so there was a meeting on Zoom, and she mentioned the number. And I said, OK, that sounds great. Please send over the offer letter and the paperwork, and I'll take a look. So that way, I'm not making a decision on the call. I'm not putting pressure on myself to make a decision right then and there. So that's a good way that you can do that.
00:39:48
Speaker
And then I did, I looked at it, we had a second meeting, and then of course at that point I knew what I was gonna say, so I had time to prepare and everything. So they did give a number first, and then I just, based on what that number was, I did some research and was able to negotiate up. That's awesome. And to your point, I have read, and I'm sure you discovered this in your research,
00:40:16
Speaker
that once they get to the final offer stage, they pretty much want you to come on. They don't want to find reasons to discredit you unless a background check comes up in your
00:40:28
Speaker
Helen or something. But yeah, it's pretty easy to negotiate up once you get that final offer letter. I always tell people, always ask for more money. The worst they can say is just no. They're not going to just rescind your offer or anything crazy. They want you to come on to their team. They've done all this work on their end to interview you.
00:40:50
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Yes. So you did all this negotiation and you're starting your job in this new role at the same company.
Embracing Varied Projects
00:41:02
Speaker
What's it been like? Has it truly been, as you said before, almost too good to be true?
00:41:11
Speaker
Yeah, I really like it. There's one other designer there too, so I'm not alone. I've had someone to learn from, and she's really great. She's been doing this for a while, so she's very willing to help me. I learned a lot. I definitely don't feel like I'd be as confident with things now if I didn't have her. She's always willing to help me out and explain things. And she cares a lot. She cares that I
00:41:39
Speaker
succeed and that I know you know that I that I learn things and do well and grow in my career and that's I feel like that's rare sometimes to find colleagues that really support you so that's been great and she's been she and I have been creating the design systems together for these products so we we work really closely together
00:42:04
Speaker
But it's been really cool like there's a lot of different products under the company I work for so I am able to work on a couple of them. So I'm not always doing the same products every day, and I actually really like the fact that I'm not really doing one specific aspect of UI UX like I'm doing.
00:42:26
Speaker
pretty much the whole process from start to finish in a lot of ways, because there's only two of us at the company. So I have my projects, and she has hers, but we occasionally help each other out. But it's great, because I don't do the same thing every day. I might start with a survey and get information from users about what they want. Then I might do a wireframe, some ideas for designs, and get feedback.
00:42:54
Speaker
Maybe I'll, you know, after that I do the UI and Figma, make a prototype, and then I do usability testing. I do user interviews. Like, I'm always doing something that's a little different.
00:43:06
Speaker
That's really what I love the most about it. I feel like I'm not going to get bored easily because I'm just able to do a lot of different things each day. And we're lucky because we have a company that has clients who want to talk to us. And a lot of companies don't have that. They have trouble
00:43:28
Speaker
getting people for usability testing or user interviews. So I really like that I just send emails and people are like, yeah, I'd love to give feedback. And I'm like, OK, cool. That was easy. So that's really nice. That's not how it is everywhere. So that's really cool that they they want to talk to us and give feedback. Yeah, it definitely isn't. I'm curious. So I know we talked a little bit about
00:43:58
Speaker
the teamwork element, that's not really something that's taught in a boot camp, how can a school of any kind really teach that? Has anything really surprised you on the job that's a little bit different from springboard? Yeah, I'd love to hear about that.
00:44:19
Speaker
Well the first couple of months I did feel like it was rocky for me because I was adjusting to the new role and one thing that I struggled with was kind of figuring out where my role ended and began because I talked about this a little at the beginning but when you're hired as a designer you're supposed to be an expert in that thing
00:44:43
Speaker
So people defer to you or are supposed to defer to you on design and anything design related. But then it's like, OK, what is design related? Where does the product management start and end? And when you're a designer, you have to make decisions all day about little things on the screen. Should this button be over here? What color should this be?
00:45:06
Speaker
You might even say, oh, are we going to do usability testing now or later? There's all these decisions that you suddenly need to make, and you're in a position where you have agency to make them. So you have a lot more power, at least for me. I was coming from customer service, where it's mostly people telling you what to do, basically. Not that I didn't make decisions. There were aspects where I had to make a lot of decisions. But it's just a very different mindset
00:45:37
Speaker
And now suddenly like I had to make a lot of decisions and It was kind of like I didn't want to step on anyone's toes I didn't even know if I was stepping on someone's toes. We also had a Vacancy we had a product manager and then she left and then we got another product manager so there was a gap where I felt like I had to fill that role a little bit and I was struggling to understand like where does
00:46:04
Speaker
you know, I'm not a product manager, but like, I was trying to make the right decisions. And, you know, it was just very, it was kind of difficult in that sense. And I think if you go from a role where you're not a specialist in something, and then you're like, suddenly, the person that needs to know all that stuff, it can feel weird, like you might feel like you're
00:46:29
Speaker
Oh, am I being too authoritarian? Or like, like, how do I make these big decisions for people? Like, do I tell this person what to do? Do I not? You know, and I think I needed to step up more because I wasn't really doing that as much. Like, there were situations where there were projects that I was on where I could have done more to move them along.
00:46:52
Speaker
But I didn't know if that was what my role should be. I wasn't the product manager, so I was like, I don't know if I can tell these people to do something differently or do more or do it quicker. I don't know. That wasn't really... It was just awkward. It was very awkward to figure out the company culture of what I should do and what I should not do.
00:47:20
Speaker
Yes, I completely get that awkwardness, especially because again, a lot of product managers, they don't really understand how design fits into things, especially when it's an agile process. It's, it's awkward, like you said, and
00:47:36
Speaker
taking that time to educate people on why certain elements are important is really intimidating, especially when you have a project manager who can rattle off stats. They know the business really well. I don't know what paradigm is like in all of the companies and products below it, but at Verizon, everything is very, very complex. And I might have an idea, but then there's one project manager
00:48:01
Speaker
in my head she's incredibly smart but she will come down on all of these fine details because she's been there for years and just knows how things go so it's very intimidating to stand up to not stand up but really assert your perspective and I feel like I didn't really get comfortable with that and like maybe a good year into yeah my role yeah
00:48:28
Speaker
So to make things full circle, I'm curious.
Leveraging Customer Feedback
00:48:32
Speaker
So as you were a customer success specialist and you were discovering all of these flaws within the product, because people were calling in asking for solutions, now that you're in the place to design these solutions, have you been able to sort of bridge that gap?
00:48:53
Speaker
Yeah, this was really rewarding. I just worked on a project actually that people had been asking for, for a couple of years. And I would get those phone calls when I was a specialist in, um, in customer service. And I, you know, I would hear people asking, Hey, do you have a way to do this? This is super annoying. And I would have to say, no, I'm so sorry. There's a feature request for that. I'll add your name to it, but you know,
00:49:19
Speaker
We're probably not going to get to it for a long time. So I was able to work on a feature like that. And it was actually just released like maybe last week or two weeks ago. So I'm very, very happy about that. And they loved it. Like there was no we do like NPS scores where people can write in like, oh, they think our product is a 10 or five or whatever.
00:49:44
Speaker
And we didn't get any negative feedback about that at all. It was pretty positive. I did a few user tests with people before it was released, and everybody was really happy. So that was rewarding. It's nice to go from customer service, where you can hear how annoyed they are with something, or you can hear just how frustrating it is, and then actually, like a year later, be able to fix that exact same thing. It's really cool.
00:50:14
Speaker
That definitely sounds rewarding. Well, first of all, congratulations. And second of all, I'm curious, did you, how did this project come about? Because of course, as we talked about, we have to get by and you can't just know that there's a product flaw, design something and just have the product manager just say, yep, let's do it. Let's send it to engineering. It doesn't work like that. So I'm curious, did you,
00:50:42
Speaker
Yeah, how did you get the ball rolling on this? Yeah, I'm actually trying to remember now because there's just so many projects. But I do remember talking about it to the people in product to make some decisions and stuff. I think it was a situation where we have JIRA tickets for any feature requests that people want, and then
00:51:10
Speaker
When someone in the customer service department speaks to someone like a new client that wants this feature, then they put their name in the JIRA ticket. So you can see like how many clients actually want this feature. And usually if a lot of people want it, that's when we focus on making it.
00:51:27
Speaker
So if only one person wants it, we won't do it. We won't create that feature. But it got to the point where more people were asking for it, I think. And so like I said, this had been a feature request for maybe two or three years. But I don't think enough people had accumulated on it, saying that they wanted it. And there was just a point where I think they were looking for features to go into this sprint that would be
00:51:55
Speaker
doable in the sense that it's not going to take five months to make it. Something small enough, but that would have a big impact. And so that is how this feature was. It was small enough, but would have a big impact. A lot of people wanted it. So yeah, I think I just sent the Jira ticket to someone at one point and said, hey, all these people want this.
00:52:22
Speaker
you know, do you want me to do any design for it or something? Or maybe, I think, I know that's happened with a bunch of our projects where I've done that before, like I've asked to work on something, but there are also times where they'll just pick it up and say, oh, hey, Jen, here, do a design for this because, you know, we see that all these people want this feature. So it kind of goes both ways. I think I work with a good team. You know, we all, we all kind of collaborate.
00:52:53
Speaker
when it comes to figuring out what we should work on next. So I like that I have a voice in that. Yeah, it sounds like you have an incredibly collaborative environment as well, which is sometimes hard to come by. And also, like, I'm sure that adds to the reward of everything you're building. Yes, yes, it definitely does. And I'm aware that it's not like that everywhere.
Valuing Job Satisfaction Over Hustle
00:53:18
Speaker
Certainly. I, you know, Verizon's been great to me. It's the only company I've really worked at aside from a few startups here and there. So yeah, I don't know how you feel, but I want to stay at Verizon for as long as I can. I'm very happy. It's a good situation. And I always kind of wonder what is on the other side. Like, is there greener grass? I'm hard pressed to say there is, but
00:53:48
Speaker
Yeah, with that being said, like, where do you see yourself going next? Yeah, honestly, I'm not sure because I just finished a year at my company. So it's February now. So it's been like a year and a month in this role anyway, in a design role. So I feel like I still have a lot to learn. I know I've learned a lot. It's really funny because I was just looking at some old designs from a year ago. And I look at them and I'm like,
00:54:17
Speaker
oh, these are so terrible, they're so bad. And I'm like, oh my goodness, it's so funny. And then it just makes me feel good though, because I see the growth and everything that I've done over the year. But I feel the same, I don't really want to leave at all. I know eventually, like, you know, something might happen, I might want to move on, depending on where I want my career to go, but I'm very happy where I am now, I think as long as,
00:54:45
Speaker
I continue to learn things and be in a position where I am able to learn new things. It's fine. This is a really great role because there's so many different things that I can do. So learning to build the design systems, that's something that most designers don't really get to work on, especially more junior people. So that's amazing that I can do that. And then I'm also doing the UI designs.
00:55:12
Speaker
UX research, interviews, usability testing. So I feel like I'm just getting so much out of it and I'm able to bring that to the table as well. I'm able to do all these things for the company. So yeah, I'm very happy now. I actually don't know where I will be in like eight or nine years or anything.
00:55:34
Speaker
I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think if something's working well, and I think within all the networking I did to get into the industry, I was so concerned about the career trajectory. And someone was like, just do what makes you happy. And I'm like,
00:55:51
Speaker
Yeah, why worry? Just focus on being satisfied with the work. Obviously a job's a job. I hate the whole dream job. I don't think that exists, but I think there are definitely better and more satisfying careers for an individual than not. Yeah, and you don't have to hustle. I know there's the hustle culture thing of like, oh, you should work two jobs and you should work 14 hours a day or whatever.
00:56:21
Speaker
Like, that's totally fine. I know people in my life that do that, and it's very satisfying to some people, but I think there's also a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves. And if you find a job where you're just genuinely happy, why leave? Why would you feel that you should leave? It's totally fine.
00:56:42
Speaker
Certainly. Yeah. And that hustle culture, like, yeah, I completely agree. Some people do thrive in that. I personally need eight hours of sleep at night. I don't know. I've gone back and forth on picking up other work, but I was having that conversation with myself just this weekend and thinking like, things are pretty good right now. Like why add in something new? Like why chase something else?
00:57:11
Speaker
like a side project. I mean, I know I have this podcast as a side project, but do I want a third?
00:57:18
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of think maybe that third project should find me. That's a nice way to say it. Yeah, I like that. I feel like I used to be hustling more. I think a lot of it was money motivated. I wasn't really making a lot of money. And I would do little jobs here and there. In college, I would do all kinds of odd jobs and stuff like that.
00:57:46
Speaker
And I always wanted to do like different creative projects like I was doing music stuff for a while and. I just always like needed to be busy and it's funny because I just feel like I reached a point where it's like I don't I don't know i'm like comfortable in the stillness like I don't have to do something all the time.
00:58:05
Speaker
that feels like, oh, I need to accomplish something. And I didn't really think that point would happen. So I'm glad that it's happened. I feel more satisfied. I don't know if you relate to that at all, but. A little bit. I think for me, there was this sense in fashion where if you weren't working all the time for the art of fashion, which is ridiculous because most fashion these days, it's just like a copy and paste from one designer to the other.
00:58:33
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of always felt like I had to be doing something, especially living in New York City. It's not really a nine to five town. But now I think I've enjoyed relaxing simply because I can show up better for when I'm not relaxing, when I do have to think.
00:58:52
Speaker
I've become quite a bookworm and I feel like that's kind of my, it's doing something but it's still enjoyable and fun and it doesn't feel like work. So that's been my happy medium. I've become such a bookworm. That's exactly how I am. I just read a book like in three days. I finished it last night.
00:59:10
Speaker
And I was like, wow, I love just being here on the weekend reading a book. Like, this is amazing. And so we'll have to swap some books. What? Yeah, we'll have to we'll have to talk about some books later. But we are coming up on time. And I always like to ask, is there anything that you didn't that we didn't talk about today that you'd like to share now? Um, that's a great question. I feel like I feel like we covered
00:59:40
Speaker
pretty much everything that I would want to talk about. I gave some advice. You gave some advice. Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah.
00:59:48
Speaker
This was an advice heavy episode. I think everyone is, but this one I think was really special in the sense of advocating for yourself and negotiating that salary and then kind of finding your purpose and switching through companies because that's a very scary and intimidating thing to do. I'm sure a lot of people that will listen to this probably want to do the same thing, but it's scary. And I think it's just so important to have these conversations to understand how other people are doing things.
01:00:18
Speaker
So that being said, I know you're open to listeners connecting with you on social media because you have a TikTok. Yeah, so my TikTok is Jen Designs Stuff, so J-E-N, my name. I don't post all the time, but I probably will start posting again pretty soon, but I usually post tech-related or design-related stuff, so feel free to find me on there. And I also have a LinkedIn as well.
01:00:48
Speaker
Certainly. Well, could you spell your name for those wanting to connect with you on LinkedIn so that they're adding the correct.
01:00:56
Speaker
Jennifer? Yeah, so it's Jennifer J-E-N-N-I-F-E-R dash Elizabeth E-L-I-Z-A-B-E-T-H dash Christensen C-H-R-I-S-T-E-N-S-E-N. So it's linkedin.com slash I-N slash Jennifer dash Elizabeth dash Christensen basically.
01:01:21
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, I know that as these episodes have been rolling out, people have been connecting pretty heavily with each other. I have been very excited to hear that other podcast guests have connected with guests from other episodes. So it's been great making this little community here. That being said, Jennifer, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story and for everyone listening.
01:01:49
Speaker
If you have questions for Jennifer or myself that could be answered on a future episode, please email me at eliminatepodcast at springboard.com.