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TV Writer to UX Design and Company Founder
26 Plays7 months ago
Jon Stahl is a recovering TV Writer and current software startup founder who began his career in tech through the Springboard UX/UI Bootcamp.
Jon started in TV and film production in New York before moving to Los Angeles in 2011, where he found work as a Writers’ Assistant and Script Coordinator for several popular TV shows.
In 2021, he pivoted into UX/UI through the Springboard online bootcamp. After graduating, he took several contract roles with entertainment companies like Panavision and WriterDuet to help make their software more user-friendly and accessible.
At the start of 2023, he founded a software startup called Prolog, which aims to modernize the entertainment industry with software for creative professionals.
Questions for John or myself that could be answered on a future episode, please email me at [email protected].
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Transcript
Introduction to John Stahl's Career Transition
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Life After Tech Bootcamp. It's finally getting to a beautiful spring here in my neighborhood of Brooklyn, and I'm excited to talk to someone in sunny LA where it's always just sunny. So today I'd like to introduce you to John Stahl. John is a recovering TV writer and current software startup founder who began his career in tech through the Springboard UX UI Bootcamp.
00:00:40
Speaker
John started in TV and film production in New York before moving to Los Angeles in 2011, where he worked as a writer's assistant and script coordinator for several popular TV shows, including HBO's Veep and the Fox animated sitcom Housebroken.
Pivot to UX/UI Design and Startup Launch
00:00:59
Speaker
At Housebroken, he wrote the ninth episode of the show's second season and was able to contribute creatively to edits, design meetings, and record sessions with voice talent.
00:01:10
Speaker
In 2021, he pivoted to UXUI through the Springboard Online Bootcamp. After graduating, he took several contract roles with entertainment companies like Panavision and Writer Duet to help make their software more user-friendly and accessible. At the start of 2023, he founded a software startup called Prolog, which aims to modernize the entertainment industry with software for creative professionals.
00:01:34
Speaker
Prolog is about to release the beta of their first software product and are in talks with major studios interested in using their next product, a full service creative development platform. And as I said earlier, John is based out of sunny Los Angeles, California, where he lives with his wife, cat, and two miniature dash sounds. Hi,
Insights on UX Design and Overcoming Challenges
00:01:54
Speaker
John. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Alyssa, for having me on board. I'm really, really excited to be here.
00:02:00
Speaker
Yeah, and I know we were talking a little bit before about how you were really thinking how UX informs UI, but how UI informs UX. And I couldn't agree more, but I know you have a very, maybe hot takes a little too dramatic to say, but you have a take on this.
00:02:18
Speaker
Yeah, so, you know, I went through the UX UI bootcamp and I learned about all these kind of methodologies and systems of doing design and there was a lot of conceptual stuff about how
00:02:33
Speaker
To create a foundation for a framework for for your designs right you don't just jump straight into you i don't jump straight into designing high fidelity designs you can jump straight into wire frames you first have to set a strong foundation of.
00:02:50
Speaker
you know, research and, you know, ideation and iterating and and testing kind of like paper prototypes and stuff like that. And you kind of get get it. You know, you you understand this process in sort of like this cycle where the arrow of the cycle kind of goes in one direction. Right. And you have to first do the research and the ideation before getting to any of the designs, which makes perfect sense. And there's a reason that that that exists.
00:03:20
Speaker
But i've kind of discovered as i've gotten more into design and specifically ui design that. When you start looking into some of these systems that are created to help you create the actual physical ui of the product.
00:03:35
Speaker
That starts to also inform the UX, inform usability, inform how a user is going to approach using a particular platform. And you start to notice that that cycle where the arrow is always pointed in the clockwise direction starts to go counterclockwise. And you start to see that, for instance, I use a UI kit called Untitled UI. And this is not an ad for them. I'm not getting paid by them. But I really, really love
00:04:03
Speaker
What they've built, it's a really comprehensive design system and kit that I've been using to design everything at Prolog. Excuse me.
00:04:13
Speaker
I have not only taken my learnings and my research and all the stuff that we're doing to build the platform from that kind of foundational level to the UI kit and building these designs, but I've also kind of been learning from this UI kit, right? Because I haven't been in design for a long, long time. And I kind of am learning as I go, which I think is the
00:04:36
Speaker
the thing for a lot of people, right? And so when I start to see some of the kind of like patterns that emerge from this UI kit and sort of the structures and components and aspects of this kit and start to notice these patterns and recognize how they could be used, it sparks in me a new way for a user to approach solving their problem or achieving their goal, right? So, you know, whether it's like a toggle or a switch
00:05:06
Speaker
or an entire page, or they have entire templates that they've set up, that kind of sparks my imagination. It says, oh wait, what if this was a new way to approach solving this user's particular problem? And so I've noticed, as I've dug more into this, that of course you need that foundation of research and ideation and kind of talking to users
00:05:32
Speaker
But you also start to learn from the actual systems that you're using and the platforms that you're using to help inform those earlier things in the process. Certainly, yes. I have also found when I've been exploring UI that
00:05:51
Speaker
I think I might have a solution for something UX related, but then UI, I'm like, oh, there's so many other ways I could go about this. So in some ways, I, I don't know how you felt this, but I feel a little overwhelmed by UI. There's so many intricate solutions to one problem then figuring out how the user's going to react to that. Yes, I completely agree.
Motivation and Journey from TV to Tech
00:06:13
Speaker
Yeah. And you know, it is, it is kind of an embarrassment of riches when you dive into something, when you dive into one of these kits.
00:06:20
Speaker
Because with something as comprehensive as what we're using, there's not just one way to do it. There's like five or six or seven or 10 different ways to do something. And you have options. And in a way, that leads to a problem that I know a lot of designers try to solve for, which is decision fatigue.
00:06:44
Speaker
I'm experiencing my own form of decision fatigue when designing something because I have so many options, but the only way to get past that is just to build something crappy and just put something out there, make something, step back, look at it, say, oh, that doesn't work for XYZ reasons, and then get back to it and figure out another solution that could work better.
00:07:05
Speaker
I love that you said build something crappy. I mean, I know you don't mean actually crappy, but no, I mean crappy. No. Okay. Well, in my head, I kind of see just getting something out on the screen, get something out there. I love the fail fast methodology because I think there's something so odd, like we're trying to build the most perfect experience, but at the same time, we just never really know how.
00:07:33
Speaker
the user is going to react. I think we can make some assumptions, kind of like a jury. I randomly took a law class in college and just understood how a jury works and our teacher, a former lawyer was like, sometimes I think I have the best case ever. I wrap it up and then the jury
00:07:52
Speaker
goes against what I've argued. So I think that's somewhat similar in UX UI, where sometimes you build something that's pretty great, I definitely thought I've done that. And then people just hate it, or they want something that you didn't think was that great. So
00:08:10
Speaker
Whatever keeps us on our toes, right? Yeah. And, and to that point, I think there's a lot of overthinking that goes into design and it's really easy to kind of like ideate and ideate and conceptualize and like think of a thousand different reasons that something works or doesn't work. But in the end, you're going to end up facing.
00:08:32
Speaker
kind of a trial by fire when you start to hand these things off to engineers. And the engineers are going to pick up things that you didn't account for and they're going to think up these unique edge cases. And all of that thinking you did, it's almost like wasted time, right? Because there are people who are examining these things,
00:08:55
Speaker
and punching new holes into the things that you're building. And so it's almost like you want to get to that point as fast as possible. So then you can say, OK, here's another issue that we've encountered with these this particular design. And so we're going to back it up and try something new. I agree. I really try to steer the teams I work on when we're just getting into the weeds of the assuming. I always say, let me just do a spot test. Let me just test this out really quick.
00:09:23
Speaker
because we're going to spin our wheels. It's not worth it. It's not worth spinning your wheels to assume. And I feel we're on the same page with that. Well, before we were convincing people not to spin your wheels, you were a TV writer and super exciting. I know before we started recording, I have never seen the show Veep and now I'm
00:09:48
Speaker
intrigued. So I OK, what was happening? What you got into TV writing? What was going on then before you started analyzing UI and getting into the weeds of that? Sure. So I'll back it up even a little further than that. Prior to being in the writers room, I started in entertainment and in production. So, you know, I was a I was an in office PA on a couple of feature films back in 2010.
00:10:14
Speaker
And then I was on a TV show in 2011 on the East coast. I was in New York at the time and worked, worked there, moved out to Los Angeles in 2011. And I got my first, I bounced around some more production jobs.
00:10:30
Speaker
but got my first job in a writer's room as a writer's assistant in 2015. And it is like no other work that you'll ever do. It really is the most unique and incredible experience. It can be stressful. It can be the hours can be incredibly long. It can be incredibly thankless. But there's no other job like it. And it was truly a special experience.
00:10:56
Speaker
I did that for about five or six years and then the pandemic hits. And like many people, I'm kind of reevaluating what I want to be doing, how I want to be spending my time.
00:11:10
Speaker
And I'm just kind of talking to people about other career paths that exist out there. And a friend of mine is a very talented UI UX designer who went through a bootcamp herself. And I asked her what that experience was like, how she likes doing what she's doing.
00:11:27
Speaker
And she had a lot of very positive things to say and felt like mentioned that she felt like it would kind of fit my personality and what I like to do. Cause a lot of it is, you know, it's talking to people, it's research. I like, I like communicating with people.
00:11:41
Speaker
I love tech. I love well-designed products. I am a sucker for a really cool, innovative piece of technology that solves a problem in a meaningful way. And to be part of that sounded like a really cool thing. And so I kind of did some research on boot camps and how I could approach that. I found Springboard, and I pursued that course.
00:12:06
Speaker
with reckless
Interview Strategies and Communication Skills
00:12:07
Speaker
abandon. And I graduated like six months later than I thought I would. But I've made it through the program and ended up with a pretty decent portfolio to show from that experience. So I see how you found UX and you talked to someone who spoke highly of bootcamp. But what about the profession of UX? I know you said you like well-designed products, but I think there's a difference between liking to use something
00:12:34
Speaker
versus working to actually build something. So what about that career really stuck out to you and thought and made you think that this was the right path for you to pursue? Yeah, that's a great question. So I've always been a creative person. I've always liked to create things. I've always liked to imagine new things and try and bring them into existence. I mean, that was my whole career as working in a writer's room.
00:13:02
Speaker
I've always been kind of a tinkerer and curious about things. And prior to going into UX UI, I taught myself Python and a little bit of JavaScript and kind of like the idea of being able to control the machines via code.
00:13:20
Speaker
ultimately drawn to professions that are not only creative, but also collaborative. And to me, you can't have you can't be like you maybe you can, but it is very rare to find a UX UI professional who is not collaborating with someone else to create something. And, you know, collab, creative collaboration was the name of the game and writers rooms. It's a bunch of people sitting around a room pitching ideas back and forth.
00:13:46
Speaker
between each other and you know from the first from the first like bit of trying that in ux you i was kinda hot right.
00:13:55
Speaker
When my friend approached me and asked me about, you know, any problem spaces I wanted to solve and kind of like thinking about ideas, the kind of workshop atmosphere of saying like, okay, this is something that's going on in entertainment. I feel like our company can help fix it. And I feel like we could build something that is super useful to people and solves a real world problem for them.
00:14:16
Speaker
And that process of workshopping, workshopping and ideating, and coming up with ideas and bouncing things back and forth. And that kind of like, no bad ideas, a mentality was was kind of addictive. And I kind of I kind of got hooked on it. And it was just like, it was a really like potent force for how I wanted to approach the rest of my career. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can relate in the way
00:14:44
Speaker
coming from fashion design, I was always building something. So I wouldn't say I was creating garments. I guess I could, but I always thought of myself as building something.
00:14:57
Speaker
which is similar. And I explored many different types of careers, but I truly needed to be working on projects. I remember there was this one career path I was trying to go down and the recruiter working with me just said, Alyssa, you need to be working on projects. You need to be collaborating. You can't be doing this kind of work you're forcing yourself to do, which was frustrating because I was trying to get out of fashion, but she was right. And I definitely can relate with
00:15:23
Speaker
that creative process and taking a concept from A to B or just idea to something people are using. And with that, I know you decided on springboard, but what made you pick that bootcamp? You know, I researched, I did some research into, you know, satisfaction of the students and what people thought of the programs. Cost was a consideration. There were a lot of like a lot more
00:15:52
Speaker
expensive boot camps. And this was like relatively early in pandemic when prior to kind of like the, the, you know, people collecting their savings account and growing those and whatever, but like, you know, cost was a factor, but also like what people actually who graduated from the program thought about it. I read some good reviews. I did some research into general assembly and one other, I think. And it seemed like springboard was kind of like the most
00:16:22
Speaker
fit me the best.
00:16:25
Speaker
And there's something good to be said about a self-paced program that allows you the flexibility in the course. You know what I mean? So I did a little research. I read some good reviews. It wasn't like a deep dive. And I didn't kick the tires as much as maybe I should have.
00:16:55
Speaker
I ended up pretty satisfied with the program that I got out of it. Yeah. So when you were in the program, was there anything you were doing outside of the coursework that you thought was beneficial to where your career is now? Yeah. So I mean, like even before the kind of like industry design project sort of thing, I was connected
00:17:20
Speaker
I was connected to Panavision to a company that was building a software platform for post-production professionals.
00:17:32
Speaker
And they were looking for a UX designer. They were looking for someone to help with the designs. And it was still very, very early in the product's life history. And so they were kind of looking at it like an internship sort of thing. And I was still a little bit clumsy with Figma. And I was still a little bit not the most adept. And I was only like 3-quarters of the way through the course.
00:18:00
Speaker
And I actually rolled that into the IDP and made that my industry design project. But prior to even getting to that point, I started working with this company in the entertainment space very, very heady, very, very high concept, super abstract,
00:18:24
Speaker
use case, that is, I'm not going to bore people with like what that what it does. But suffice to say, it was built for a very particular, like niche type of user within the entertainment industry, specifically in post production that was doing something very, very specific. And so that was an incredible learning experience. I interviewed a ton of people, both within the organization's stakeholders, but also the actual users that were going to be that were going to end up using the product.
00:18:54
Speaker
And that was kind of like jumping into the deep end because all I had was kind of like my rudimentary experience doing user research and UX research and like discovery research type stuff from Springboard. And I was talking to these professionals who were making like multi-million dollar movies and asking them questions about their workflow and their process.
00:19:19
Speaker
in quite frankly, a topic that was just a slightly over my head, I have some experience in post production. But this is so like niche and specific that it was. Yeah, I was I was struggling at points there. I'll admit. That makes a lot of sense. But also, even when you're doing something for the first time, there's no way you're going to be perfect at it. I think there's no way to be perfect ever. But that first time it is
00:19:47
Speaker
a bit of a humbling moment. I definitely would do things differently during my IDP or my first few months at Verizon.
00:19:55
Speaker
Yeah, I do have one story actually from that experience. That's kind of funny and terrifying to think of and it always gives me the shivers looking back.
Leveraging Networks and Entrepreneurship Challenges
00:20:04
Speaker
I went into an interview with someone that I actually knew personally. I knew this person personally and he had been with the company that was building this software product for
00:20:18
Speaker
six seven years and i was kind of like in this mindset of like doing discovery and kind of got like like. Keeping the conversation super open ended and like really like allowing the answers to come to me and not having it be like this directed.
00:20:34
Speaker
prescriptive type conversation, right? I didn't want to lead the witness too much. And so I ended up asking these really broad questions like, what do you do? What is your day-to-day role? What does your day look like? And the person I was talking to got really defensive and crossed his arms and was like,
00:20:54
Speaker
You can just look on my LinkedIn like I whatever and it became very very clear very quickly that he thought that his job was in jeopardy and I was like the executioner and I had to like step back and say alright let's let's back it up.
00:21:10
Speaker
let's this is just to just to find out about this, this product that how to build this product the best for you. And so I was able to pivot. But initially, this person was terrified that I was like, coming to take his job or something. And I was very, very uncomfortable with that experience. But, you know, I consider it a very important lesson in in how to approach research and how to
00:21:37
Speaker
approach asking questions and making people feel comfortable. And I think that's so, so important when you're doing the kind of early preliminary discovery research is to like not not put people on their heels because the moment that they're on their heels, you're not going to get the best answers. You're not going to find out what you need to find out. But that was a weird experience. Yeah. So I guess by asking these questions, he thought that you were going to
00:22:06
Speaker
design something that would eliminate his job, kind of like how we think AI is gonna end humanity. I mean, yes and no, it might've been that, but I think ultimately it was just to be about, it was about like me asking such broad questions, like what do you do? Like what do you do here? What do you even do here? This sort of thing where he took it to mean like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I do a lot, okay? And I was like, no, no, no, that's not what I meant, I'm sorry, I apologize.
00:22:36
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds like he probably had some past experiences being asked those questions that led to something bad. Potentially. I would imagine the TV industry can be very competitive and you can lose your job pretty quickly, kind of like in fashion. So, yeah, I definitely am still a little traumatized. I've gotten better, but there were some moments where my boss would just put a meeting on all of our calendars and we're like, oh no,
00:23:04
Speaker
We're getting fired. Obviously, we weren't. That was just me. But maybe that's how he felt. Yeah. Paranoia runs rampant in the entertainment industry, especially now. I mean, like if we're going to get a little bit meta for a second about the state of the industry that I still have like a toe dipped in, like it is people are scared right now. And this culture of fear has kind of permeate permeated the entertainment industry for for quite a while. And
00:23:36
Speaker
I think people are just so used to it that they don't have like, they're always on guard. And that's honestly who can blame them because it is a really like hard competitive and to say it's competitive is like a vast understatement. It is super cutthroat.
00:23:56
Speaker
It's not incredibly stable and there has always there as long as I've been in the industry, there's been a culture of fear that permeates everything and.
00:24:08
Speaker
You know, part of what, not to go into like a commercial for our platform, part of what we're hoping to do by building a better way of working in the entertainment industry and building software solutions. Part of what we hope to do is kind of erase that culture of fear and empower people to
00:24:29
Speaker
make better creative decisions and and get back to a culture of hope that I think at one point existed in the industry, I guess, long before I entered it. Certainly. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely can relate. I don't know if fashion was quite as unstable because you have a TV show like Housebroken. I don't even know if that's still I've never seen that show. I don't know if it's on the air, but it makes sense. Shows get canceled or they end.
00:24:59
Speaker
fashion lines, you can kind of tell when they're going under. So but still like working with people, it's I definitely noticed and from all of the people who have gone from fashion to another industry in tech, we can all attest by saying that the EQ the professionalism is just on average much higher than the industry we came from. Yeah, I would say that's a that's a valid point. I think
00:25:28
Speaker
having a high EQ is not inherently necessary to thrive in the entertainment industry, whereas understanding yourself and knowing your strengths and weaknesses and knowing when you're talking too much and knowing if you're putting someone off is incredibly important in other industries, including tech. Now, I will say the one caveat to that is that
00:25:57
Speaker
you know, when you're in the writer's room, there is such thing as reading the room and knowing when knowing when to stop pitching something or, you know, knowing when you've crossed some sort of a boundary or a line or something like that. And so that was a skill that I that I, you know, really honed while working in entertainment is the ability to read the room. Certainly. And eventually, you know, you were reading the room in job interviews for UX.
00:26:26
Speaker
And you were looking for opportunities in that. So I'm curious about two things right now, just in general, your job hunt and what that looked like for you, but also how you parlayed reading the room, like digging down. And as you said, getting meta, like what, what were you reading from these employers, from hiring managers as you're trying to get into the industry?
00:26:48
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, like, look, if I could get into the door and get an interview, I'm, I'm a pretty good interviewer and I recognize that in myself. And I think ultimately it's about, it's about approaching things with confidence and, and whether that confidence is earned or unearned, like, like that's, you have to project that. And that's something that I also learned from entertainment is that, you know,
00:27:13
Speaker
very much fake it till you make it. I was in no position to be as confident as I was in some of the interviews that I had. If I'm being perfectly honest, I didn't have a ton of interviews. Two of the contract jobs that I got were from people that I had direct connections with.
00:27:33
Speaker
were looking for people specifically in the entertainment industry or looking for designers that knew the entertainment industry. I fit that bill. But I did have a couple interviews with a few people. And part of it was just knowing that they were looking for something. They were looking for a design. First of all, they actually actually was a job. And I had a couple interviews where I ended up making it far, but then the job just kind of went away.
00:28:00
Speaker
which was incredibly disappointing. A part of that is just projecting confidence and even if it's unearned,
00:28:10
Speaker
know that you got this and know that you deserve to be in the room. Even if the job calls for four more years of experience than you actually have, go in knowing that this job is yours. Assume the job is yours and if it's not, then it was not meant to be and you weren't going to get the job anyway.
00:28:33
Speaker
if you project confidence and if you project that sort of like, I don't want to say like superiority or entitlement, because that is like, that's the opposite of what you want to do. But but like, approach it with like, the curiosity of I want to get to know this person, I want to get to know this person that's interviewing me, I want to know what the culture is like there.
00:28:53
Speaker
I want to know what it's going to be like when I work there instead of if I end up working there. When I work there, what is it going to be like for me? And if you approach it with that sort of attitude and that curiosity and openness, your chances of getting to the next stage of the interview just increase. I agree. And I also think coming in with that, for lack of better words, energy, that
00:29:16
Speaker
you're asking for a seat at the table and let's be real, some managers actually just want you to do what they say. They want to micromanage. So if that's something you don't want to do, that's just not going to be a good fit. So I love asking the hiring manager what kind of relationship they see between us, what level of support I'm going to get, what
00:29:42
Speaker
level of mentorship I'm going to get because I think that says a lot about the team atmosphere and how I will fit in at this company. And it's tough when you're in a desperate position, you really just need a job. So you'll kind of take anything and put up with some stuff. But when you really have an opportunity to take a job that's right for you, I think that's a great question to ask.
00:30:09
Speaker
Yeah, and I will be the first to admit that I come from a position of enormous privilege. My wife has an excellent job. I'm not like lacking for resources or the ability to pay my rent.
00:30:22
Speaker
So that added pressure, I recognize that that added pressure is tangible and it affects people differently and it affects people in a real meaningful way. And part of that confidence going into it, I will be the first to admit, comes from that privilege of having that sort of safety net.
00:30:40
Speaker
that I know not everyone has. And so if you can do it without the safety net, that's a superpower. If you can project that confidence and go into an interview and come across as someone likable and you can contribute meaningful value to the organization and you don't have that sort of backstop, then that's so much more
00:31:07
Speaker
powerful than like me going into an interview saying like, Hey, if I don't get this, it's not the end of the world. I'll still be able to live, you know? Right. Yes. There's that confidence of I really want to be here. This is what I can offer. I'm curious because I think a lot of people conflate cockiness with confidence. What are some ways you think people do the confidence thing wrong? What are some traits, actions that
00:31:35
Speaker
cause people to not look confident in your eyes? Yeah, cockiness and there's a fine line between the two and I think ultimately it comes down to the focus of attention, right? And if the focus of attention is me, me, me, me, me, that comes across as cockiness and there's no faster way to put someone off.
00:31:53
Speaker
But if you're really interested and ultimately for at least for me it comes down to curiosity. And wanting to know more about I'm genuinely curious people I genuinely want to know more about other human beings what makes them tick what gets them excited like hear about their passions and stuff like that if you can really.
00:32:14
Speaker
take all of your energy and put it into learning more about this other person instead of talking about how great you are and also learning about the potential relationship between you and the other person. That's another thing that people don't really focus a lot on, right? They'll focus on like what I can bring to this organization. They'll focus on what this organization can do for me.
00:32:36
Speaker
but they don't spend as much time thinking about what is the relationship going to be like here? What is happy hour after work with colleagues look like? How do people mentor each other here? How can I be a helpful person and provide mentorship to other people while I'm here? And really focusing on the person on the other side of the table.
00:32:59
Speaker
goes a long way towards instilling confidence in your abilities and not coming across as a cocky jerk. Yes. And what I think you've sort of identified is someone interviewing or someone being interviewed, there's a problem here. We need more human resources, right?
00:33:23
Speaker
the interviewee coming in talking about me, me, me, all of that in a way they are solving the problem before they've defined it. And defining that problem is, well, why are you hiring me? What is the need for a new person like me here on this team? What role do you see me having? And I think it's better. It's now that I'm thinking about it, the interviewee should start asking the questions first.
00:33:50
Speaker
It's kind of backwards. This is probably a little too progressive. Like the world's not going to change just because I've made this realization. But yes, now I think you've really discovered why it's so important to come into the interview with questions because you are part of the solution where you could be. So instead of this defining and saying, this is what I can do, understand how you can fit in first and then layer it with your skill set.
00:34:18
Speaker
Yeah. And honestly, I think you've hit the nail right on the head in understanding business needs. And that's another thing that people kind of go. They're just completely ignorant about business people. People go into a lot of interviews ignorant about business needs. They're ignorant about.
00:34:33
Speaker
They're focused on the user. They're focused on solving a user's problem. But the first user that you have to convince that they have a problem to solve and you're the person to solve it is the person on the other side of the table when you're interviewing with someone. And thinking about things in terms of a problem that needs solving and ultimately understanding things in terms of value add. And saying like,
00:34:57
Speaker
You know, there is a degree of entitlement that is associated with people thinking, you know, I want this job. I need this job.
00:35:08
Speaker
I'm going to get that. That's why I'm going to get this job. Instead of thinking about the process in a more holistic way and saying like, this company needs XYZ and I believe I can provide value towards them getting XYZ. And some of the more effective ways that people have actually gotten jobs that I've witnessed are by people who approach a company and
00:35:36
Speaker
And I'm not saying this is right for everyone, but people who have approached a company and said, there's a gap in how you work. There is a hole in your organization. Here are the problems you're probably experiencing.
Collaboration with Engineers in UX/UI Design
00:35:51
Speaker
Here is why there's a gap here. Here's why your company is not hitting revenue targets.
00:35:59
Speaker
xyz and i'm the person that can fill it because i have a plan to do it and i can execute that plan if you just hire me and that's sort of like it is a very like sort of brazen approach to job hunting to like literally create a job for yourself but i've witnessed it be successful from professionals who have been. Not necessarily in the design field but in business development
00:36:26
Speaker
in creative pursuits, I've witnessed people do that thing. That is really cool. I think that would make another really awesome podcast episode, just diving into how people figure out the business needs and see something that the business actually doesn't see. But yeah, I completely hear you. People don't always understand business needs. That's a very hard thing to realize and I think
00:36:54
Speaker
one person we talked to on this podcast last week's episode, Ken, he genuinely, what really amazed me about him, not amazed me, but really impressed me was his humbleness and his way of saying, I don't know what that means, or I don't know what this is. So I think there is a lot of power, even if you have an interview at Verizon or an interview at a startup like prologue, where you might be hiring your first hire. It's
00:37:23
Speaker
Okay, actually to really not know what the business needs are some of those are confidential So I think it's completely fine to go into an interview by saying like I've looked up what your business does But where are you currently struggling with and I think that's a great start to Again discover why you are going to be a good hire
00:37:43
Speaker
Yeah, and I think part of the mentality that I would just encourage people to have, you know, I worked at before being in entertainment, I worked at the Apple Store on Fifth Avenue just in retail.
00:37:58
Speaker
you know, the big cube on Fifth Avenue. Iconic. Iconic, yeah. So I worked there for a number of months. And one of the things that we learned when you don't have the answer to something, don't make it up. You say, I don't know, let's find out together. And that comes from a place of having a mentality of problem solving and a mentality of like figuring something out even if you don't know it and really like rebounding from
00:38:26
Speaker
quite frankly, a shortcoming and you're like a knowledge gap, right? If you don't know something, that's okay. As long as you're you're willing to take the next step to learn and share that with someone else. And I think it kind of ties in a bit with another piece of advice that I got while working in a writer's room.
00:38:45
Speaker
There's some people in writer's rooms who will pitch issues. They'll say, there's an issue with this part of the story or this character or this moment or this piece of dialogue. But one of the best pieces of advice I got from a very high level writer who's worked on friends and succession and really big shows. Never heard of them. Never heard of them. Totally kidding.
00:39:09
Speaker
was pitch solutions, not problems. And that's something that I try to take to everything that I do. Instead of approaching a problem and saying, I don't know what the answer is, this is something that we can try and figure out.
00:39:27
Speaker
give it give it give it step one, right? You don't have to have the perfect answer, but pitch something like think think of like, if you see a shortcoming or something that you notice is wrong, instead of saying that's wrong, that's bad. That's just to me, that's just complaining. Instead of doing that, I'm saying this, I completely agree people will love you if you come in with a solution. Because even if it's not perfect,
00:39:56
Speaker
And thinking about it, there's nothing worse than someone that just sits here and like, this isn't good. What should I do? There's definitely moments I've had with my manager where I'll be stuck, but at least point out where I'm stuck and share where I'm trying to go, even if I don't have a solution. Yes. Thank you for sharing that because I think there's something to be said for making someone else's job easier.
00:40:25
Speaker
And that is bringing a solution instead of just complaining about a problem. Yeah, I fully agree. And I think it's really just about being proactive and also about, like I said, being curious is one of the best things that you could bring to a company.
00:40:41
Speaker
If you're curious about like, oh, like toying around with the solution, even if it's not the perfect solution, and you come to the table with a couple of so-so ideas or middling ideas, that's at least enough to get the ball rolling on figuring out a solution. It's all very abstract, speaking of very abstract terms, but in general, if you notice something that's wrong, come to the table with a way to fix it, even if it's not the best way.
00:41:08
Speaker
Right, right. I yes, people will love you. You can bring solutions, not problems. So moving forward, you've gotten a couple of contract roles when you got that first contract role. What was that interview process like? I'll be honest, it was it was kind of more of just a conversation about about process and about like what what I do in in
00:41:36
Speaker
design. And so that first one was with Panavision. And I had a conversation with the product manager, really just talking about talking through the particular problem they were solving and the particular piece of software that they were building. And, you know, I think he understood that it was a lot to grasp because it is such a niche kind of technical, technical aspect of the production process.
00:42:07
Speaker
But really I think the impression that I got was as part of that conversation, they were kind of like testing to see if I could handle this sort of high level conceptual thing and how comfortable I was building a solution to that. And so it really was like a very friendly
00:42:27
Speaker
non-adversarial interview, if you will, much more of a conversation. In that sense, I got very, very lucky being connected with these people that kind of knew me and had a preexisting relationship with me and trusted that I wasn't a total jerk and could ideally do the job. And they took a flyer on me because I only had a portion of a portfolio built out
00:42:56
Speaker
where that they could look at and see if it was like something that they wanted to to to take a risk on and and hire hire me to build this sort of like high end platform that they were working on. Right. Were these friends that you had worked with in the industry or were they colleagues of friends? How did you get connected with them? So my wife worked at Panavision for a long, long time and
00:43:26
Speaker
Well, she didn't, she gave me the emails, but I knew these people from interacting with them.
00:43:35
Speaker
for a while. She actually founded a company called Light Iron, which is a post-production facility that was building this software. And the people that I touched base with were people who have been working for Light Iron for some time. And I had known through whatever social events, and I had visited the office and spoke with them. So I had a huge leg up because I knew someone personally at the organization. And they were looking for someone that
00:44:02
Speaker
The other advantage that I had was that they were looking for someone who was aware of how the entertainment industry worked when building this product. And there are not a ton of UX UI designers who come from entertainment. And so using that sort of like niche approach, I think that's the biggest takeaway that I learned from the job hunting process was
00:44:28
Speaker
really lean into your past, lean into organizations that are sort of in that field or a relevant field or an adjacent field that you originally come from because with everything with like software eating the world and everything becoming
00:44:46
Speaker
adding software to their roster of things that they do, like you will be able to find a job at an organization that specializes in
00:44:58
Speaker
that specializes in something that had to do with your previous career, if you're a career switcher, if you're going from some other career to UX UI. And that's what I did with entertainment, right? I really made a focus on, I focused on putting myself out there as the designer that you go to for projects in entertainment. And I think I'm continuing to do that through Prolog, through the software platform that I'm building and
00:45:24
Speaker
Quite frankly, like not everyone has a ton of UI chops in entertainment. If you look at a lot of these platforms that are, that have been built for entertainment professionals, like they don't look great. Not all of them function that well. It's kind of like, I feel like you're getting like second or third tier designs in a lot of these platforms and I won't like
00:45:48
Speaker
I won't name names or anything like that. But there's a lot of legacy systems out there. And the legacy systems haven't had a UX UI designer touch their designs in maybe years. And so I think coming to the table with designs that not only look good but are well fleshed out and well researched and there's documentation that proves that this is a usable piece of tech.
00:46:15
Speaker
and putting that front of companies in the entertainment space gave me a huge leg up. It really did. Certainly. Yeah. I bet a lot of those platforms weren't even, or perhaps they were designed before UX and UI were really a profession.
00:46:30
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Like so many of these legacy systems, I will name one name in Final Draft, which is a piece of scriptwriting software that I would use professionally all the time. And it was, you know, every version that I've used in the past was super buggy. I think they've ironed out a lot of the things.
00:46:50
Speaker
But some of the more recent additions are multiplayer mode editing, which has been in Google Sheets for 15 years. But you couldn't do that until a year ago in Final Draft. And sorry for anyone from Final Draft who's listening to this. And no real offense to anyone who is an engineer, because I really respect engineering.
00:47:12
Speaker
it seems like a platform that was designed by engineers and you know that's fine and they did a they did a fine job of creating a functional piece of software that actually works but there's a lot that lot more that goes into creating software than just you know and just
00:47:32
Speaker
creating the front end and back end of it, right? There's a lot of like that research and that sort of like usability and like talking to customers is so, so important. And it's why the UX UI field exists. And I just feel like in entertainment, it really is like, it's not a lot of that. They're not really leveraging designers in building their software. Sure. I mean, I kind of get it. Like, you know, I, of course,
00:48:02
Speaker
not to put down software engineers either because we need software engineers. We can't make them angry. Do not make them angry. That is the last thing I ever want to do. But to give them some credit to know all the back and front end
00:48:18
Speaker
and then have them do design, that's really two to three jobs right there. Yeah, it's not to put them down, but to ask them to do all of that, there's no one or two person team can really consider three roles in one. Like you said, the research and understanding plus getting all of the user stories and then to the UI,
00:48:45
Speaker
It's a lot to really consider and I can understand why if you're a software engineer, you're going to build it in a way that it's easier for you to build versus consider the usability at the end because that's just not what they're trained to do. And to go on a bit of a tangent, excuse me, to go on a bit of a tangent, I think that, you know,
00:49:09
Speaker
thinking about one side without thinking about the other is not the best way to approach it. And it's both directions, right? If you're a designer and you're not thinking about how data structures work and how
00:49:25
Speaker
your designs will actually talk to the backend and how inputs and outputs will work. That's a surefire recipe for disaster because if you're not kind of staying attuned to those types of things, by the time that you get to hand off, you are going to hand off these designs
00:49:42
Speaker
And you're going to have the engineers asking all of these questions about things that you hadn't considered before. And then even pointing out, this is not going to work, because that's not how we have our data structures set up. And we also don't have access to this information, for instance. And really understanding, it is a double-edged sword. You really, as a designer, have to understand engineering. You have to understand how the things that you're going to hand off
00:50:10
Speaker
will end up talking to the data that's coming in through the system, how that data architecture works, how it looks. And that's been a huge focus of what I've been doing at Prolog has been not only focusing on the designs, but also focusing on data architecture. Because we know that there's going to be all sorts of data that we're going to be getting collecting from users. And we know that there's all sorts of
00:50:34
Speaker
relationships between those data. And so if you if you don't think about those things, then you're going to end up with this like spaghetti mess of design that doesn't actually like function well. And you're going to end up after handoff
00:50:50
Speaker
with with with, you know, a production version of the software, not looking anything like your designs, because there were all these edge cases and other other things that you hadn't considered that the engineers are building for, which is why a handoff is incredibly important. And B, if you have the capability to do so, understanding
00:51:12
Speaker
what goes into at least front-end development of your platform is so, so crucial. And I consider it a badge of honor that the last front-end engineer that I worked with when I was doing kind of like an after-the-fact status report of what was it like working with me and what did you think about the process? Because I'm the CEO of the company. I kind of have to do that sort of stuff anyway. And he was like,
00:51:40
Speaker
I've been an engineer for 10 years, and this was the easiest handoff that I've ever had in my life. And you laid out things so clearly. You had such a clear understanding of edge cases, and I'm patting myself on the back right now. But I think it's just a point of pride that if you're a designer that understands engineers and understands a little bit of engineering, that's going to get you so, so much further than just knowing design.
00:52:08
Speaker
I completely agree. And I'm very glad you brought this up. I think there's a lot of questions around UX designers. Do we need to learn to code? Do we need to know certain things about the software engineering profession? And it's not that you need to know how to code. It's, I think, understanding how engineers think. Even in my bootcamp, I knew
00:52:32
Speaker
Well, backtrack, even working in fashion, I knew I couldn't just design anything, send it off to the factory and have it made exactly as it was in my head. There are certain limitations that I need to work on. So I don't think it's so much that people need to learn how to code, but take the time to learn how things interact on the backend. I've learned so much about API keys at Verizon. I think.
00:52:58
Speaker
It's not something as a junior you need to be proficient in, but going back to what we were talking about earlier, taking the time to ask, taking the time to say, this is what I have in mind, how doable is it to build this? What are some of the limitations? And engineers will tell you, engineers will be very upfront with you, and it will save you a lot of time and a headache understanding how things can work before things go into production and handoff. Again, it goes to just
00:53:29
Speaker
another level of how you can bring something to the table and how you can fit into the overall business goals. Yeah. And one more thing on that point is that something like responsive design is a great example of that kind of like that meeting point between design and engineering. Because engineers use CSS, they use HTML, use CSS grid, layout grid, and understanding what those things are and how they operate,
00:53:58
Speaker
will be so important in communicating how you want your designs to be responsive, which is just a completely necessary component of building software. You have to build it for multiple viewports. You have to build it for
00:54:14
Speaker
for multiple different screens and different window widths and all that. And so understanding just like, just look up like layout grid, look up CSS grid and see how it relates to design. And then if you're talking the same language as your engineer, God, they will be so grateful. They will be so happy that you understand a little bit about how they're building what they're building, right?
00:54:41
Speaker
I agree. I agree. Well, speaking of what you're building, you have your own company prologue. So I want to take the time to understand what that is and then how you started on this path of being a founder and getting into the entrepreneurial space because I know back when I surveyed a lot of people who were interested in
00:55:04
Speaker
this podcast and the themes we were going to talk about, people were really interested in getting involved with startups. So I'm really excited to dive into this right now.
00:55:12
Speaker
Yeah, so I have not had that much, I hadn't had that much exposure to the startup world and to like running your own company until I met my wife. I met her in 2012 and she had founded a company called Light Iron, like I mentioned. And it was really exciting that she was working on something that she had built from the ground up. You know, she started this company with three other people.
00:55:38
Speaker
before other people. And she didn't take a salary for the first year she was living off of credit cards. But as part as part of that, she got equity at a company that ended up selling to Panavision and it was
00:55:50
Speaker
a special moment when that happened, obviously, but there was a lot of work that went into it. And I'm just continually impressed with what she is able to do, how she's been able to grow her career, how she's been able been able to forge her own path in this industry that's incredibly hard, even if you're just like, staying on on the rails of like a traditional career path. And
00:56:16
Speaker
And I was just so impressed with that, that I've always been, had that kind of since then, had that curiosity by what that would be like, but I never really had the opportunity or insight into what I might take the time to build. And that was until 2020, at the beginning of last year, 2023, a very close friend of mine who I've known for some time approached me and asked me if I had any interesting problem spaces worth exploring.
00:56:41
Speaker
And I said, yeah, as a matter of fact, you know, I see TV writers getting staffed for TV shows and the showrunners have to, you know, read through 250 scripts to find the right writers. And they have to set these meetings and they have to track all this stuff and they're using a spreadsheet to do it, which is not.
00:56:58
Speaker
ideal and it's like where is the script where is the sample associate with this writer i can't find it at the dig through an old email and so this kind of frustrating roundabout process of staffing for writers room when a really really simple online tool could do it a whole lot better and so we started digging into that and it's a relatively small market. Share runners staffing for tv writers rooms there's probably only about like.
00:57:24
Speaker
I don't know, 600 to 1,000 showrunners in Hollywood that are at least regularly working as of the last five years. So tiny little market. And initially, we didn't think about that. We kind of just went ahead and interviewed a ton of showrunners. We talked to 30, 35 showrunners. We gathered a ton of insights. We did a lot of discovery. We did a lot of early stage research to figure out what to build. And then in later stages, we
00:57:52
Speaker
We went into, we brought, came back with, came back to them with designs and asked for their input. And that helps us determine how to build it. And that was an exciting process. Cause I got to talk to a lot of people and as part of that, it was just a lot of research, a lot of workshopping, a lot of ideation, a lot of, you know, gumming around in Figma, trying to figure out how to do stuff and, and.
00:58:22
Speaker
That was its own thing. And then pretty soon after building this platform, we came to the realization, like I mentioned before, that it is a very, very tiny market. And we need to kind of expand our focus and what we're building. And so we started to think about what it looks like outside of the writer's room, what it looks like outside of the share runner's frame of experience. And we talked to people from the studio level, from big networks. We talked to people.
00:58:52
Speaker
from smaller production companies that were managing their development slates. And we ended up gathering a ton of research there and building out a product that we think would do the things that these users needed to do in a much more efficient way.
00:59:10
Speaker
and also look good doing it, right? We wanted the platform to be more than just like a glorified Airtable or Google sheet, because that's kind of what people are using right now. And so we
00:59:23
Speaker
took all the research, aggregated all of the things that people were talking about, prioritized the aspects of the software that people felt most strongly about or that the largest amount of people were encountering issues with, and we built around that. We built a prototype in Figma,
00:59:45
Speaker
I'm currently putting that prototype in front of people from the studio, people from production companies, gathering insights, gathering interest at the same time, doing pricing research and reaching out to investors and really trying to drum up a strong customer base for this product. It has been exhausting and strenuous and stressful and
01:00:16
Speaker
incredibly exciting and fun and like no other experience I've ever had.
01:00:23
Speaker
And honestly, it is a very rewarding thing to... It's weird when I put it... People think I'm a strange person when I put it this way, but it's nice knowing that if I fail, it'll only be because of me. It'll be because of something that I haven't thought of, or it'll be because I didn't put the right amount of effort into this, or some other reason.
01:00:47
Speaker
Right? And for my entire career prior to that, I was beholden to other entities. I was beholden to a showrunner that was hiring or a studio that was going to either pick up the show for another season or not.
01:01:01
Speaker
or some other power that is in Hollywood, keeping a gate open or shutting the door in my face. And that's just like there's a certain amount of empowerment that goes into having the freedom to fail.
01:01:19
Speaker
And I appreciate that as the founder of this company. And I recognize the tremendous amount of responsibility that I have to build a good product that serves the industry well and also
01:01:39
Speaker
keep the company afloat and make something that's actually profitable and that people want to buy because ultimately, that's what it comes down to. If people aren't going to pay for this platform, then the company is dead in the water and there's nothing you can do to save that. There's a ton of things that you have to think about being a CEO. There's a lot of different ways to fail and I've tried all of them.
01:02:05
Speaker
And so I, I am, I'm really happy with what we've built so far and I'm very excited for the future. And right now we're just kind of, we're in like showing the prototype around and trying to raise money mode.
Networking, Adaptability, and Personal Interests
01:02:20
Speaker
And so we're, we're talking to a lot of people and we're having a lot of conversations about investment and we're having a lot of conversations about, you know, partnerships and it's really exciting and it's, it's, it's a pretty fun experience.
01:02:33
Speaker
Yeah, well, one thing I think you really glossed over is just how difficult this all is. And luckily, like this is something you're, this is your job, this is what you're working on. And I think a lot of people they need, I know I would need to stay at Verizon if I want to start my own company, like I don't have an extra support system. But regardless, all of it is still hard. And I'd love to know what kind of traits or
01:03:02
Speaker
mindset do you think is right for someone to start their own business? Because I think starting your own business is a little bit romanticized. People think, oh, you have your own hours and freedom. But then I hear from business owners by saying like, yeah, you have your own hours, but it's not your nine to five. It's like your nine to eight. It's 18 hour work days. So it's like pick which 18 hours a day you want to work.
01:03:30
Speaker
What kind of advice or reflections do you have for someone interested in getting into owning the wrong business? So I have a leg up in approaching this company for a number of reasons, but one of the biggest reasons that I have, one of the biggest legs up that I have is
01:03:51
Speaker
the fact that I've been in entertainment for so long and they say you need a thick skin in entertainment and you need to be resilient and you need to know what rejection is like. And rejection for the first few times was really, really hard. But if there's one thing that has really, really helped me in building this company,
01:04:13
Speaker
It has been, you know, a lot of other people know how to succeed. I know very, very well how to fail. And I've done a ton of it. And failing has like, I've, I've, I don't want to say numb because that makes it sound sad. But like, I have grown like a plate of armor around me when it comes to trying things and failing and doing the wrong things and saying the wrong things and knocking at a bunch of doors and getting told no or having the door just slam in your face.
01:04:42
Speaker
And so if you do that, if you if you're able to fail, like, I don't know, 1000 or 2000 or 5000 times, which I'm sure I've hit that number multiple times over, then then you know how to be an entrepreneur. Because being an entrepreneur is all about a trying new things that aren't going to work out.
01:05:05
Speaker
B, banging your head against a wall over and over and over again until something sticks and C, knocking on as many doors as you can without a single
01:05:19
Speaker
fear of the door slamming your face. And I've had a lot of doors slamming in my face or I just knock and no one answers. And it is ultimately like a lot of things in life, a numbers game. And you really just have to like keep on failing until you succeed. And that's how I try to approach everything with this company. Keep on failing until you succeed. And I know that not everyone has the kind of luxury and privilege that I have.
01:05:46
Speaker
in having a support system and a supportive spouse that is able to keep me fed and sheltered while I pursue this. So it is definitely something I do not take lightly. And part of the reason that I work so hard, work as many hours as I do,
01:06:07
Speaker
because I know that not everyone has the opportunity to do that and I am wasting a precious gift. If I don't take advantage of that and really just try and try and try, even if I experience, even if I encounter failure after failure after failure, you just have to keep going. And you have to be like super comfortable with the rejections or the outright, you know, people ignoring you. And I feel like
01:06:33
Speaker
after an entire career in the entertainment industry experiencing that, I am very well suited for it. Yeah, I completely agree. The key thing I think you said was accepting that people will say no or not do exactly what you want. I got a big no yesterday at my job and I think
01:06:58
Speaker
It's important to experience your emotions. So I had my 10 minutes of my emotions, but I just told myself, Alyssa, you could stay here and complain and give up or whatever, or you could just let it out and then pick yourself up and keep going because there will be other opportunities down the road. I think a lot of people get so hung up on.
01:07:21
Speaker
This is my exact opportunity, and I gotta know so there'll never be any other opportunities in the future. That's not true. But one thing I'd love to dive more into with this failure, yes, people can fail, fail, fail, but they do think, and I'm sure you agree, you just didn't get to this point, but learning from your failures, what could be better next time? But also I think there is a gray area of,
01:07:49
Speaker
You can fail, but it's not that you did anything wrong. It's just that opportunity didn't pan out. So how do you kind of determine if it's you that's the problem, or if it's just, hey, this path, this road is closed. There's nothing I can do about it.
01:08:04
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, first of all, I never really think about it in terms of like, Oh, it's just me. I think about it in terms of like the approach that I pursued and you know, an approach will not always pan out, you know, a type of email or like, uh, or like the way that you reach out to someone or the way that you pitch the product is not always going to resonate with, with people.
01:08:32
Speaker
And sometimes that's unavoidable, right? There's only so much research you can do about someone without like officially stalking them. I do recommend you do as much research as possible into your potential customers because that will give you some insights into how they work and how they might use a software product such as the one that we're building.
01:08:54
Speaker
But at a certain point, there's only so much you can do there. And I think that there are methods that you can do to overcome that. For instance, you can A-B test messaging. That's something that I really highly recommend is try two different emails. And if you get a greater response from email B than email A, because email B is shorter or whatever, but less detailed, then you have a miniature
01:09:21
Speaker
case, a research study that helps you determine how to approach that same thing in the future. And so yeah, I think part of it is just like,
01:09:30
Speaker
doing as much research as you can. Part of it is trying different things and gauging the response from people. And it's never, ever, ever going to be scientific and you can't expect it to be because so much of this is so ad hoc and kind of slapped together with duct tape. But you can try things and you can see what anecdotally at least resonates with people.
01:09:57
Speaker
And we did that with, you know, investment emails. And we did that with like our, you know, how we present the prototype to people and like follow-up emails about like, Oh, here, pass this on to pass this blurb on to people, you know. And if there's a shorter blurb or a longer blurb, like which one works, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I think it's just about getting as much research as you can, as you can muster on people.
01:10:24
Speaker
And if you get a response, sometimes, another thing is you can't always be learning from failures, right? Because sometimes you'll just get someone not responding to a message and you don't know if that person's too busy or if it's because they just don't like your face or some other thing.
01:10:45
Speaker
you can't help that at a certain point. And so there's only a limited amount of learning that you can take away from those instances. But the only thing I can say is knock on more doors, get a greater sample size, put yourself out there to more people, grow your network, expand, expand, expand, until eventually you
01:11:08
Speaker
do have a large enough sample that you can make informed decisions and and and glean informed learnings from the process. Certainly. And it's an interesting topic to break up now. I'm reading a I guess you could call it a memoir on a former first lady. I'm sure we can all guess whose memoir this is. But she was saying how
01:11:34
Speaker
Throughout her life, she has met world leaders, athletes, celebrities, all the top, the creme de la creme of people who society thinks are successful. And she's like the commonality is that people are resilient. Another thing that they brought up was that they keep a closeness of people around them who believe in them. And I kind of see that in you a little bit where you have
01:12:00
Speaker
your resources, you have your family, you have your colleagues from the industry, and then you kept going with resilience. So that's been really recently on my mind. And I'm just curious, like, how do you
01:12:19
Speaker
I think a lot of people constantly talk about tapping your network. And it sounds like you've done that very, very well. So how have you approached some of these people with your new UX UI skill set? Because they probably knew you as a TV writer. So then 180, hey, I'm a UX UI designer. What was that? What were those conversations like? Yeah, so I mean, ultimately, the best way to and this is I'm not trying not to put this in like a way that's like fooling people or tricking them into anything, but
01:12:49
Speaker
the best way to get people to open up to you and hear what you have to say is to be genuinely interested in what they have to say. And so whenever I approach any of these networking opportunities or calls or whatever, and I'm meeting with someone new, I always pose it in a way that's like, look, I just want to get to know you a little bit better. I want to get to know about your history.
01:13:15
Speaker
how you operate, how you ended up in the development space, all of that stuff. And if there's an opportunity to kind of like pitch my product as a solution to one of their problems, then great. But I also, like I said, it's it's it is I'm very happy that my personality is incredibly curious, and I'm very happy that I'm able to
01:13:38
Speaker
talk to people and learn more about them and be genuinely interested in what they have to say. Case in point, I reached out to, I don't know, 20, 30 people on LinkedIn, seeing if they were interested in talking to me and hearing a little bit about them. I look at it as the opportunity to learn more about people in the space that I'm building for. I also, if the opportunity arises again, I look at it as an opportunity to
01:14:06
Speaker
to make the case that we are providing a product that could work for them. But occasionally, I'll have a call with someone like I did just this morning where I met someone and this person had worked in development and it's kind of like the skies are a bit cloudy and the entertainment industry is not so hot right now. And he was just telling me about the stuff that he was interested in doing and the stuff that he was passionate about.
01:14:36
Speaker
I was super interested to hear that because I am always on the lookout for people to potentially partner with, but also people that, you know, could work for the company and just like contacts that have something interesting to share. And this person was all three of those things. And like he, he seemed like a really like intelligent, bright person who had a unique perspective about
01:15:01
Speaker
About the in the state of the industry and had some really interesting you know He had some unique interests when it came to what else he would be doing outside of entertainment Excuse me and that
01:15:18
Speaker
was great to hear because I, first of all, I'm incredibly curious about people who are open to trying something new, which this person was. And also, there's a potential partnership there in the future. And I wasn't trying to sell them on anything from the beginning because, look, again, I'm able to read the room and I'm able to see if someone is open to
01:15:44
Speaker
to hearing a pitch about this software product. But more than that, I could tell that this person had more to offer in terms of insights, in terms of his story, in terms of of where he came from and what he what he wanted to do next, than just like a, you know, customer targeting session. Right, right. It's less about what can I get from you? But how can we be egalitarian? What can we do for each other? Yeah, that's
01:16:11
Speaker
in general, how people want to connect. And I think most people do want that, they just don't know how. And again, I agree with you being curious and seeing what's going on with the other person so you can meet their needs is a much better approach than just getting them to try to buy something from you.
01:16:31
Speaker
Yeah, and it's more genuine too, right? It's not like it feels less transactional, which I think is something that people struggle with. Obviously, you're pitching a product. You're pitching a software solution. You're trying to sell something. It literally is a transaction a lot of the time. But, you know, look at it as a conversation first. Look at it as connecting with another human being first and
01:16:57
Speaker
things tend to fall into place, right? People who trust you will be curious about what you're building and want to try out your software. You don't have to like, lead with the hard pitch. And I know that may go against some like, some sales manual or business development manual somewhere. But, but like, I don't know, I feel like especially in as skeptical an industry as entertainment, because there's a ton of skeptical skeptical people in entertainment, like
01:17:24
Speaker
That approach is going to win nine times out of 10 versus the other approach. Certainly. Well, with all that said, what is next for John? I know we have a prototype. We are talking to people about what's next for your career. Where do you see yourself going? It largely depends on where this company goes and what we encounter and who we court.
01:17:53
Speaker
where we end up going and if we get funding and how much funding we get, I am fortunately incredibly flexible when it comes to both what I'm able to do, but also what I am interested in doing, right? If someone came to me and said, hey, we want to buy this software and we'll hire you as like the UX UI designer slash CEO, I'd be like,
01:18:17
Speaker
I'll consider that I'm open to that. If someone said, here's a bunch of money, we want you to want you to continue to be the CEO and and use this these resources to build out your team and really go it like have this be your own, like have ownership over this and really go forward with it, then I'm open to that too. And I think, honestly, as I've gotten older,
01:18:40
Speaker
I don't want to make this an age thing, but as I've gotten older, I have noticed that I am more open to different paths than when I was younger. And that seems counterintuitive in a certain way, but at the same time, like when I was younger, I was, I wanted to be a writer and that's all I wanted to do. That's all I knew how to do.
01:18:58
Speaker
I didn't have any other interests or any other pursuits that were meaningful to my career. And now I'm like, you know what? If this is the path that ends up laid out before me, I am open to it. And if someone wants to just hire me as a designer,
01:19:17
Speaker
I'm open to that i also i have a lot kind of have a lot of positive signals with this company i feel strongly that i can make it work and my team and i can like push the ball forward and make meaningful impact in the industry. And also have a successful business model but.
01:19:35
Speaker
If all signals point to no, and we keep getting rejected, there's only so much banging your head against the wall that you should be willing to put up with and understanding when you don't have a viable business model is something that's a
01:19:54
Speaker
It's a skill that I still don't possess, but I hope to possess it so that I know, you know, is this just another one of a series of rejections before the next win or is this like a real meaningful signal that people don't want to buy this thing? And if it's the latter, then you have to pivot and you have to be flexible and you have to like roll with the punches as they say.
01:20:17
Speaker
And I am very fortunate that I am not of that singular mindset, right? I never wanna be of the singular mindset of like, I have to do this. It is tied in with my identity because ultimately there's so much more to me than just the work that I do, right? I have family, I have a spouse, I have people I love and care about, I have friends, I have hobbies and other pursuits.
01:20:47
Speaker
And I think I learned my lesson from working in a writer's room and being a writer and like tying my identity to that career that I am a lot more flexible now and a lot more open to the kind of like changing wins that I will encounter inevitably in the future. Wow. I couldn't relate to that more. I know this episode is about you and I hate like making this
01:21:13
Speaker
I completely enjoyed the passion. That was my identity. And when I knew it was time to cut my losses and leave, it honestly felt like the biggest breakup. At the time, I was actually breaking up with my boyfriend and leaving my career was harder. I don't know what that says about me, but maybe time will tell. But yeah, and with UX, I just discovered that there are a lot of possibilities. I never thought I'd be working in telecommunications.
01:21:41
Speaker
I love that you said that. I think a lot of other people will relate to that beyond. And with that being said, is there anything we didn't get to talk about that you wanted to share today? Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm going to talk about one of the hobbies, one of the aforementioned hobbies that I do.
01:22:00
Speaker
which is, and I will try and tie it into UX UI. It's not going to be easy, but I'll try. I compete in competitive dog agility with my Dachshund Dash. And if you don't know, a Dachshund is a wiener dog. So it's a long, long short dog. Not being agile. I don't have dogs that well, but
01:22:23
Speaker
Dash is a very quick big boy. He really, really is. And he absolutely loves agility. Whenever we get to the practice field that we go to every week, he goes nuts and runs around the course and runs up the teeter and the teeter falls. And then he jumps over jumps and finds the table to sit on and sits on the table. And he just goes nuts over it. And the last time, well, actually, the first time that we ever competed was about three or four weeks ago.
01:22:53
Speaker
And we went to the, you know, they have this big field that's enclosed by a little fence, like a little short fence. And when it was his turn to go, he knew it was his turn to go because he was at the door of the fenced off area, pawing at the door, trying to get in so that he could go and do his agility. He absolutely loves it. I really enjoy it. I think it's a great connection between me and little Dashie and
01:23:21
Speaker
And it's just it's a lot of it's a lot of fun. It's a unique challenge that not everyone has had. Had the good fortune to experience and. Yeah, I mean, if I had to pick one tie in with UX UI, it's it's that it's all about starting small and iterating, right? When you see a dog running a course on one of these agility videos that you'll see online.
01:23:46
Speaker
They didn't start doing that. They started with a single jump and then they started with a single one of those weaves and they definitely did not know how to weave until you trained them how to weave and gave them a treat afterwards. It's just about repetition and iteration and improvement and continuing to grow with your dog. As much as Dash has learned to do this,
01:24:10
Speaker
He's a natural, and I still mess up all the time. But I'm still learning every time that I take to the course and try something new. And I've been doing it for about a year and a half now, maybe two years. Like I said, we just started competing in competitions, and I have my next competition this coming Sunday.
01:24:29
Speaker
That's incredible. You know what, there's nothing wrong with comparing that to UX in my humble opinion, because again, I can relate in that before I switched careers, I never really did much that was new. And one thing I did pick up, I decided to start running and I always grew up a swimmer. I never thought I could run, but then I did,
01:24:56
Speaker
Nike had a club in New York City. So I did their run your first mile and then the next thing I know I'm running
01:25:03
Speaker
And then the next thing I knew, I accidentally ran eight miles because that pace, I was like, we're going to go extra day and just not tell anyone. But then I was like, Oh my God, I need to do the New York city marathon. Now I need to do half marathons. And now I've been on this Odyssey to do a half marathon in each state. And my relationship with running has really evolved before I was so serious about it. I counted every calorie. I didn't drink. I didn't go out.
01:25:30
Speaker
But now running kind of works for me and just seeing that evolving. And I'm sure you've seen that in your relationship with Dash, how, yeah, he didn't start with weaving and all of that. But I'm sure just as you've gone through all these compet... Well, you've gone through one competition, but like, I'm sure that relationship is consistently changed and evolved. And it's easy to kind of see the patterns of how your dog
01:25:56
Speaker
and you work together and how someone can run a half marathon and relay that process to really anything.
01:26:04
Speaker
Have you, have you kind of done any, any other States besides New York or have you, have you kind of, where are you in that process? Yeah. So we're recording this in April, 2024. I will be competing in my 40th state. I don't compete. I'm not that fast. I don't want people excited, but I will be my 40th state Wisconsin in May of 2024. And, um, yeah, I, I'm hoping that.
01:26:31
Speaker
We'll see how life goes, but I might be able to finish the rest of them next year. But if not, I'll just take two more years. First world problems.
01:26:41
Speaker
I mean, you're 80% of the way through the 80%. Yes, 80% of the way through the states. That's incredibly impressive. How long have you been at it for? I started in 2016. And again, you know, going through the failures and like things you can control, I had maybe six or seven states plan for 2020. And we all know what happens 2020. Sure. Nobody was out there running. Right.
01:27:04
Speaker
you know, air quality breathing probably wasn't the best at the time. So yeah, it set me back. But again, like it's just the learning to adapt for me. And again, I got a big career no on Monday. But you know, what's next? Like,
01:27:23
Speaker
It's yeah, I, I think there's something, I don't know what LA is like. I've never lived there, but I feel like New York city, there's almost too much opportunity here, but that's exciting for me because if something doesn't go the way I want it to, well, there's 10 other options or paths I can take. Yeah. Yeah. And I fully agree. And I think that people kind of like place a lot of weight on individual opportunities or, or paths that they have in front of them. And.
01:27:52
Speaker
You know, there are so many other, there are so many other paths, so many other opportunities out there. If you're willing to put yourself out there and fail. And I think that that's, that's just the only thing that gets in people's way is fear. And that fear is just not, it's not helpful. It, you know, it's a defense mechanism. It's there for a reason. It's to protect people from getting hurt, but.
01:28:15
Speaker
You know, you, you, you need to take risks like the, the, I don't know. I've found recently that the least risky careers that I've experienced, like the ones that are the most stable or whatever secure or that those paths that were the most like, okay, this is the path that you take to get to the next step.
01:28:33
Speaker
Those were the ones that ended up not panning out, where starting a startup, I have just seen the amount of opportunities in front of me grow. And part of that has just been taking risks and meeting new people and putting myself out there. And just the more other people you encounter and the more other people you engage with and the more you expand your network, just the better the amount of your opportunities is going to be.
01:28:58
Speaker
I agree. We had another guest on the podcast who said something so beautiful. It's when you teach yourself something new, you give yourself new opportunities. And that's so true. I think a lot of people harp on education. They say their college degree was a waste or they think of boot camp as a scam. But in the end of the day, all they are, like Harvard University, Springboard,
01:29:25
Speaker
All of education is just a tool. It's not a ticket. And, you know, I definitely could have optimized my bachelor's degree better. But at the same time, it's really on you to set your destiny. And I completely agree with the fear mentality. I was genuinely thinking about this today, how fear
01:29:47
Speaker
more times than not is kind of a wasted emotion. Obviously, there's times if someone's being aggressive with you, be afraid for your safety. But if you're afraid to try out a new running club or maybe try adopting a dog or starting your own business, what's the worst that's really going to happen? Yeah. And it's kind of like
01:30:12
Speaker
It's kind of like a cliche, but like the whole like do one thing every day that scares you is, is like, there's, there's a whole lot of truth to that, right? Because that opens, is going to open way more doors than just being proficient at something that you're good at and doing that over and over and over again. That's going to open way more opportunities.
01:30:33
Speaker
experience encountering new experiences and meeting new people and doing new things that you never knew would would come from it, right? It's just about it's just about like putting yourself out there. Yes, yes, I completely agree. And I also think we're just two people that happen to love talking to people. There's always something you can learn from somebody else. Whether it's a good person, a bad person, there is always something that they can teach you, whether it's
01:31:02
Speaker
intentional or not. And with that, you know, we are coming up on time. Are you open to listeners connecting with you on social media? Absolutely. Yes, I love me. Like I said, I love meeting new people. I love hearing people's stories. And so yeah, the more the merrier.
01:31:21
Speaker
Sure.
Building Community Around the Podcast
01:31:22
Speaker
And I'm guessing, is LinkedIn the best? Is there another platform? Are there multiple? I really don't use other platforms besides LinkedIn. I'm not on Instagram a bunch. I'm not on Facebook. I'm not on TikTok or anything like that. So LinkedIn is the best way to reach me. Yeah. Great. Well, would you be able to spell out your name so that people can add the correct John to their network?
01:31:45
Speaker
I am Jonathan Stahl, J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N. Last name Stahl, spelled S-T-A-H-L. And my LinkedIn, let me see if I can actually pull up my LinkedIn. I think my LinkedIn is linkedin.com slash in slash
01:32:07
Speaker
John G. Stahl, all separated with dashes. So J-O-N dash G dash Stahl. And that's my LinkedIn. Fantastic. And I've been saying this, I feel like on every episode, but it's been so wonderful to see how everyone's connected from this and even some of the other guests who have listened to episodes of connected with each other. And I just, I love the community we're kind of building in somewhat of a passive way, but in a really nice,
01:32:37
Speaker
high level. I don't know what I'm trying to say, but I'm just talking about the community that we're building this podcast. Yeah, that's terrific. And I think that it's, you know, if if other guests who have been on the show before are also interested in connecting with me, please absolutely do. Yes, please. Yes. Everyone connects with everyone. This is good. This will be good for metrics. I'm totally kidding. Well, John, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story. I think so much of your advice will be well received.
01:33:07
Speaker
And for everyone else who's listening, if you have questions for John or myself that could be discussed on a future episode, please email me at alumnipodcast at springboard.com. Thank you so much for having me on.