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Sex After Baby, Unlearning Shame, And Finding Your Sexual Self With Shan Boodram
6.2k Plays6 months ago
In this fascinating discussion, Jess sits down with world-renowned sexologist Shan Boodram for a discussion about all things sex, shame, and self-discovery. Shan shares her personal journey from curious kid to professional sex educator, shedding light on the challenges and triumphs she's faced along the way.
Together, Jess and Shan dive deep into the reasons why talking about sex can be so uncomfortable, exploring the societal conditioning and messages that contribute to feelings of shame and awkwardness around intimacy. They also tackle the importance of comprehensive, age-appropriate sex education and the impact it can have on reducing stigma and promoting healthy relationships.
For parents tuning in, Shan offers valuable insights on how to approach sex education with children, emphasizing the power of open, honest communication. She and Jess also delve into the challenges of balancing motherhood and sexuality, providing tips for postpartum parents looking to rediscover their sexual selves and rekindle the spark in their relationships.
Throughout the episode, Shan and Jess share personal anecdotes and vulnerabilities, creating a safe space for listeners to reflect on their own experiences and beliefs about sex. They ultimately challenge us to examine our internalized messages and encourage us to create a new, shame-free narrative around intimacy for ourselves and future generations.
Whether you're a parent, a partner, or simply someone looking to cultivate a healthier relationship with sex and intimacy, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation that will leave you feeling empowered, informed, and a little bit more comfortable talking about sex.
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Transcript
Introduction and Content Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey friends, Jess here. Before we start the show, I wanted to note that today's episode includes mature content and explicit language. It's not going to be the best show to listen to with little ears around. Hope you enjoy.
Welcome to the Robot Unicorn Show
00:00:16
Speaker
Welcome to Robot Unicorn. We are so glad that you are here.
Why is Discussing Natural Functions Awkward?
00:00:20
Speaker
As always, let's start the show with a question from Scott.
00:00:29
Speaker
Just why is sex or like other natural bodily functions those kinds of just things that everyone pretty much experiences in life. Why is it so I don't know so difficult to talk about what makes it so awkward for people because if you think about it we all experience we go to the washroom we do these gross things maybe I don't know we've had kids so obviously there's something else that has been accomplished there too.
00:00:56
Speaker
I just being quiet because I want to continue to hear where this question evolves. I mean, you can even hear it in the way I'm asking. Why is it so awkward to talk about the concept of sex or any like natural thing that people experience?
Cultural Messages and Bodily Functions
00:01:10
Speaker
So you notice how as you're asking that question, I'm just quiet and I'm watching you and I'm actually noticing that you are feeling uncomfortable even asking me, who's your wife? 100%. This question. So that I think tells you a big reason why it is so uncomfortable. Let me start with this. You said gross bodily functions. That's what you said in terms of like using the bathroom and stuff like that. Yeah, I'm kind of a germaphobe, neat freak.
00:01:39
Speaker
But I think that using the word gross actually is deeper than that, right? Because I think all of us and our parents and the generations before that, there's been like these messages passed down about what these things are, right?
Generational Shame and Sex Education
00:01:52
Speaker
Like I think even of a baby, you're changing their baby's diaper. And what's the first thing that you say? Ew, yucky. I'm changing your diaper. It's so gross.
00:02:00
Speaker
And actually what I'm teaching potty training, I say to parents right away, like don't call it gross. Don't call it yucky. You're right away labeling this bodily function as something that's shameful and bad. And so immediately off the bat, we're teaching kids things like, okay, going to the washer, I'm going pee or poop.
00:02:16
Speaker
That's gross. That's bad. So that's the first messages that they ever hear about pee and poop is that's bad. And I think those messages came from our parents. It came from their parents to them. So these have been passed down from generation to generation. So that's where we start. We start with our bodily functions are gross and gross. It might be weird to like compare those bodily functions to the act of sex. Like I don't, I don't know. Maybe it's just not, not the right comparison.
00:02:44
Speaker
I actually think it's a perfect trajectory. So if you think about where we start as children, our bodily functions are gross. You, it's so stinky and kids even I've worked with clients who were kids who are so afraid to go to the bathroom because they remember being made fun of like how big their poop was.
00:03:01
Speaker
something as simple as that, right? So then now there's this layer of shame around going to the bathroom or how stinky it is. Uh, even though every single person goes to the bathroom,
Impact of Cultural and Religious Influences on Sex Education
00:03:10
Speaker
right? So we start there and then we have this fear as parents and our parents' generation definitely as well of even labeling a body part. So now not only, um, do I have this fear around going to the bathroom, I don't even know the name for my own body parts. Like the amount of 30 year old women that I've worked with who don't even know the word vulva,
00:03:31
Speaker
is like outstanding. So you don't even know the name of your body parts. And then not only to add in other messages of like shame around sex or sex is bad, having those desires is wrong, especially if you were raised in like a purity culture where it's like, you can never have sex before marriage. If you do, like you're a terrible person, you're safe. And all of a sudden you flick a switch, you're married, and then it's the most beautiful thing to have ever, you can ever experience. Right. And you know how many... You can't turn that off in your brain.
00:03:59
Speaker
You know how many married people that I have worked with, and non-married, who grew up in purity culture, who have so much shame around sex. They were like, my whole life I was taught, it's bad, it's bad. You can't do it till you're married. And then they get married and all of a sudden they're expected to be this sexual person and be in relationship sexually with someone and they just don't know how to turn that switch on because they've actually shut it down for so many years.
00:04:21
Speaker
So I think the reason why we have so much shame to talk about it is because we've been giving these messages starting from such an early age and starting from even not even being told our anatomy because those words are dirty or wrong. I get how people have not taught those things, the names of body parts, because I mean, I feel like in Canada, our education system is getting better for that kind of thing. But in general,
00:04:45
Speaker
Like our parents, I don't know how well educated they were on that kind of thing, on naming body parts. So like, how would they know what to name anything? But for us, like we actually know that. And I feel like we are not, we have no problem telling our daughters the names of their body parts. But I just, I don't understand the stigma around using the actual name for a body part. That doesn't make sense to me.
00:05:10
Speaker
I know. And it really, once you understand how simple it is, it's just the name of a body part. It really doesn't make sense that you wouldn't use those words. But because so many people have layers and layers of shame that they need to unpack for themselves around using body parts, it's going to be a long time before we can shift that. So you think it comes down to the fact that people just feel shame for these things because of what they heard throughout their, let's say their childhood or growing up and
00:05:37
Speaker
as they got older. Like the way that we were told or we talked about these things was as though they were bad. I absolutely think that has a huge impact. And then I think the secondary piece of that is these are private acts.
00:05:53
Speaker
Okay. So you just think it really
Consequences of Inadequate Sex Education
00:05:55
Speaker
boils down to shame mostly. Like I remember growing up, there was only one conversation that was had on the subject of sex. And it's because a sibling walked in and saw something and there was an explanation that was required to give to us, but that's it. Nothing else. And anything else that I heard or learned was mostly through peers and maybe through school. Did you learn about sex in school?
00:06:22
Speaker
I don't know. I don't think I did. Maybe I learned about body parts.
00:06:25
Speaker
we didn't learn about the act of sex, like what sex is, what that meant. No, I don't think so. I clearly remember being separated from the boys and the girls. Yeah, we did the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. So the boys went to one class and the girls went to another class. I remember the girls learned about periods and having their period and the idea was. Hey, you know what? I don't even know if I learned about that. Probably not because the boys don't need to learn about periods, which I also, this is where I wish we had a son. Cause I was like, Oh, I would love to teach a son about,
00:06:53
Speaker
about this so that they could be the one to talk about it with their with their girlfriends like confidently because I remember any guy in high school or even grade school that you talked to about periods it's so cringe it's so awkward and again a normal very common bodily function that let's just never talk about it even though it happens once a month
00:07:13
Speaker
And I mean, that is a whole other podcast of what that does to women to say, you can't talk about this thing that happens to you, that impacts your hormones, that happens to you every single month. Like, you know, I could go on a whole rant about that. And I would, but that's not the point of this, this conversation. But to say that the boys got the sex talk, the girls learned about their periods. And mind you, I was already having my period at this time. I don't know if we got the sex, like we never learned about that in particular. I think it was just body parts.
00:07:40
Speaker
Just body parts. And it was like grade seven or something like that. Yeah. And all the boys in the class are like, okay, yeah, I think I know what that body part is by this point. So what do you think the impact on you personally was of never having any education about sex, never talking about it. And if it was, it was very hush hush. What do you think the impact on you as a young, as a young child was? I feel like it's more like it was a shameful thing. That's pretty much what it boiled down to. It was a terrible thing.
00:08:09
Speaker
So when you started to, maybe this is too far for a podcast, but when you started to have like urges or desires or started to see one, what was the message you give yourself? Is it like, well, I'm bad for having these? Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And I, I feel like that so many people, and I feel like Shannon and I talk about that in the podcast as well, right? It's that feeling of shame that you have and guilt you have towards yourself. So this podcast is amazing. Shannon is such an expert on sex and I love how she talks about it so openly.
00:08:39
Speaker
Yeah, she was super cool. She was amazing. And she got me to open up things I never thought I'd maybe talk about on a podcast before, but I can't wait for you to listen to her episode. It's incredible. In case you don't already know her, Shan is a certified sex educator. She's an intimacy expert and she has her master's degree in psychology. She also happens to be a bestselling author and she's touched the lives of millions of people.
Introducing Shan: A Certified Sex Educator
00:09:03
Speaker
Shan talks about sex and sexuality with depth, humor, and relatable insight.
00:09:07
Speaker
You might recognize her. She's been on a lot of different television shows, being the sex expert on these shows. Most recently, she's been on Netflix's show Too Hot to Handle. She's probably one of the most influential voices in the sex space today, and we are so lucky that she took time to join us on the podcast. I know you're going to love her. Let's dig in.
00:09:33
Speaker
Shan, I'm so excited to finally talk to you and catch up. I love that you're a fellow Canadian. You're from the Toronto area, right? So if you're Maple leaves, I always try and do this. I should try and come up with it in advance. But yeah, Maple, maybe just a five. How about that? Yeah, probably good. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:50
Speaker
Did you grow up watching the Maple Leafs? I did not. I did not grow up. I'm immigrant parents, so they never played hockey or got into hockey. But I do remember in high school when the Maple Leafs made the playoffs and the joy pouring out of every locker and every car was just something really beautiful.
00:10:08
Speaker
Where did your parents immigrate from? My mom was born in England. She's Dominican and Irish. And my dad is Guyanese. So they actually both spent their childhood in the Caribbean, obviously different countries. They both lived in England at some period of time, but never met. And then their family both immigrated to Canada. And then that's where they both met in the medical field. So similar, like intertwining lives. Are your family Canadian or are you first generation?
00:10:38
Speaker
We are not first generation. I guess we'd be second generation Canadian. Both of us have grandparents actually that immigrated from the Netherlands as adults from the Netherlands to Canada. So our parents would be first generation, we'd be the second generation. But yeah, it's definitely been interesting. We actually went back to the Netherlands last fall for a month and spent a month with our family. So it's been interesting to kind of discover and see how things are different now that we're a few generations in here versus there. That's been really interesting.
00:11:06
Speaker
I saw that you came down to Canada for six weeks this summer. Is that right?
Shan's Multicultural Background and Career Journey
00:11:11
Speaker
Yes. Look at you. What a nice detail to remember. Yeah, I was there for six weeks.
00:11:16
Speaker
It was necessary, but long, but it was really, really cool. I mean, the thing about Toronto that you really just can't beat is the multicultural aspect of things. And just for my kids, and Los Angeles is a multicultural city to an extent, but it definitely is a lot more sectioned off in terms of neighborhoods of what kind of kids you're going to interact with. And one of my favorite stats from Toronto is that if you walk down the street, you're not going to pass by
00:11:40
Speaker
the same race or ethnicity three times in a row. So it's just always going to be something different. And so I really appreciated that element of introducing that to my kids of, you know, this is a huge part of my upbringing. And then of course to family and to so many people that I love and who love me, who now got a chance to love my children.
00:11:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's so nice to be there for an extended period of time too so they can really get to know your kids versus a little day or two visit here and there that must have been special to be able to bring your kids for so long. You know what's interesting and maybe this is an incorrect thing to say but it feels like with young kids you get the gist in an hour.
00:12:15
Speaker
I'm sure older people it takes longer and the longer time you have them more they warm up to you learn more intricacies about them but i feel like you could spend a day with my kids like okay this one's like that that one's like that so but that could be me i mean as an expert love to hear your take on that it could be me just over generalizing small people.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, that is one of the things I love about kids is that you do get to know them. They're just so honest. They can't hide pieces of themselves. I feel like the way that we can as adults, you can sometimes mask those pieces of yourself and it takes a while to really see the true self come out. Whereas kids are just authentic all the time. And yes, and I love that about kids and also it can be difficult sometimes, but I definitely love that about kids.
00:12:58
Speaker
I'm really curious. I know that now you are this world-renowned sexologist and you talk about sex all the time. I'm a mom as well of three kids and I'm just so curious for you growing up, what was it like? Were you already interested in this topic and how did your parents respond when you started showing interest? I definitely think the way that some kids gravitate towards the piano or to art,
00:13:24
Speaker
I gravitated towards intimacy which can be a terrifying interest for a parent check and with that and it was terrifying for my parents the time i was. Six or seven years old my barbies were banned from being naked because they always had their clothes off me they did other things too but like that just like a natural part of like their existence and so my mom would come into the room and tidy up our toys and find this and.
00:13:46
Speaker
had some concerns and in addition, I was just curious about my own body and my mom's body and my dad's body and in an age appropriate way. One of the greatest things I did studying this was I did a course that was talking about sexual development in kids and we talk about ECE a lot, but do we talk about what's normal sexual behavior age by age?
00:14:06
Speaker
That was really healing for me because learning that at five years old, it's normal to play house. It's normal to be curious, but other people's genitals doesn't mean that you are lewd, which was a word that I was called a lot growing up or that you're inappropriate, but something is wrong with you. This is a natural part of our body, not dissimilar to how kids are fascinated by poop, right? You don't think of that as a bad thing.
00:14:30
Speaker
is a human function that's interesting. So my parents naturally, I think, did not encourage this interest area of mine. And so I grew up feeling like, wow, this is something that if I talk about or I engage in, it makes my parents mad. It makes them sad. It makes them ashamed of me. So I didn't. And then when I became a teenager and hormones kicked in and I had a whole different set of motivations to engage in it,
00:14:58
Speaker
I also knew in the back of my mind that this had to be something private and that led to lots of porn watching reading a fiction novels watching movies that were sexual in nature rewatching the parts which you know i guess it's okay that i found an outlet but obviously when we consider the source it wasn't factual information so when i actually started to engage as a sexual person
00:15:20
Speaker
One, I didn't consult my parents about it or consult any older people because of the idea that I had that this was bad and it made grownups not like you. And two, what I had as my guidance was fiction and heteronormative and male-centric at that. So by the time I was 19 years old,
00:15:38
Speaker
I essentially came to a crossroads where I'd had multiple sexual partners and lots of negative experiences, low self-esteem, and I'd never had an orgasm with a partner. And I remember thinking to myself, okay, either all the adults were right, this is a very bad thing and you shouldn't engage with it, or I've just been doing it the wrong way. So I took a bet on that. And again, in sneaky fashion, I got a library card. And for that summer, every day I went to the library and read a book about sex. It was like finding
00:16:07
Speaker
a spell book. My mind was being blown apart because I was like, wow, there is information here on how to make this part of your life not stressful, not painful, not shameful, but nobody, unless they're going to go to the library, is going to have access to it. That's when I came to the idea that maybe that it was my mission or maybe it was my job to bring this information to the forefront and to get the average person invested in how their sex life and transforming their sex life
00:16:34
Speaker
could improve their self-esteem and improve many other parts of their life. So that was the beginning of my career was 19. I went to school for journalism, and in journalism school, they say, write what you know. So if you know Britney Spears and you become an entertainment reporter, and if you love the Maple Leafs, then you become a sports reporter. And I was like, okay, well, I know fucking. That's the thing that I know and I care about. That's what I wanted to talk about.
00:16:59
Speaker
I love that. I'm so curious about so many aspects of what you just described, but to bring it back to being a little kid, I think you and I are similar, but then it was expressed differently. So, I mean, I'm a therapist now, but I also was so interested in this idea and I like how you call it intimacy. Ever since I was a little kid as well, I also had the naked Barbies and I also had this idea of like,
00:17:20
Speaker
Anytime a relationship would be talked about, even on a kid's TV show, like those are the episodes I wanted to watch or anything to do with kind of that intimacy closeness, that's what I was really interested in. But also had the messages that this is bad, this is not something that we express. And so I think for me, it kind of went the opposite way where then I became this good girl, like super good girl, never do anything wrong.
00:17:43
Speaker
and also not talk about any feelings or desires or anything like that. But I think for me, it went the opposite way. I'm really interested to hear your take because I'm sure you've done a ton of reflecting on it. Why do you think for you it came out in, well, I'm going to still engage in this behavior, but I'm just not going to tell my parents. How did that come out for you on your reflections of it?
00:18:04
Speaker
It could have been inconsistent messages like my mom was very much if you do this you'll hurt me if I find about my I remember when I was 17 or so my mom found condoms in my room and she sat me down and was like in tears like as if she found
00:18:20
Speaker
I don't know like a voodoo doll with nails in it that look like her like she was just like how could you do this to me and i was like i'm not using them i swear i got it for free but i don't know i think if i found condoms in my kids room i'd be like okay at least they're thinking about it in this way and i want to make sure i can support i mean obviously i have the education but my dad was very much like ask me anything and
00:18:40
Speaker
He would share a lot of information. He wouldn't guide the conversation. He wasn't as loud of a voice on the topic as my mom was, but it could have been inconsistent messaging. I really do think a lot of it was hormonal for me. I can relate back to just the drive that I had, which is something that I, you know, as the work that I've done, I've talked to a lot of men about their sexual experiences. And so many of them will talk about this like insane urge to masturbate, like this insane urge to ejaculate.
00:19:05
Speaker
from the time they were around like twelve to eighteen or so and they would make jokes like I wish I could have called the police on myself like I could be rock the skin could be chafing and I couldn't stop myself and to an extent I relate to that so I just feel like my bodily makeup was not so that I could ignore it I definitely would have preferred to so I definitely would have not liked it I mean it caused a lot of friction between me and my parents I think that
00:19:29
Speaker
myself and my sister's sex life was probably the most contentious period of time in our lives with them. We got kicked out and I believe it was somewhat related to that. There's a lot of, a lot of, a lot of problems. So if I could have, I would have. And that was actually something interesting for me even too, because I remember after completing this course and learning about what is normal in terms of development, even learning about when someone is 16 years old, because the average age, you know, in countries where women have agency or young women have agency,
00:19:59
Speaker
The average age of first sexual experience is around 16 across the board, regardless of what the cultural influences is.
00:20:06
Speaker
And that is because biologically what happens at that time is that your pelvic floor fuses together. And then now the flood of hormones start to come in more regularly. At that time, your period might start to become a lot more regular.
Cultural Responses to Biological Urges
00:20:17
Speaker
So biologically things are just turning so that now this drive becomes very undeniable than you. Similarly to how kids walk at one years old, right? Like certain things developmentally happen to now they stand up and they have this urge to walk. And so I remember saying to my parents,
00:20:32
Speaker
years later because they were so mad at me for having sex I took it so personal and i was like you know when i started walking as a kid did you push me down and say like how dare you know that you understood this was like natural development this was natural biological development so why did you specially people medical field why did you take it so personal like why did you have more empathy in that way.
00:20:53
Speaker
And did your parents respond to that? I'm really curious what the response would be to explaining that to them. Yeah, I think my parents and obviously because of what I do and how much I talk about it, they have come around to saying that the way that they approached it wasn't the best way and they'll defend themselves. They have good defenses, right? They were better than their parents, right? And better than their previous parents and they were young. My parents had myself and my sister like in their mid early twenties. So,
00:21:19
Speaker
There's a lot that they could contend with. I went to a Catholic school. So, like, there's a lot of influences that are happening. And, you know, it's a social game too, right? So, it wasn't just a matter of my sexuality offending them if other people knew that that would be a bad reflection on them. That's just a sign of the time. So, I can have empathy for why they felt that way. And I think that they would do things differently now.
00:21:42
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's so true for so many of the topics that we talk about in parenting too, right? We can have compassion for our parents. We can understand why that was so hard for them. And it's really cool to see our parents watch us, watch you work and be like, Oh, okay. I would do things differently now that I have the knowledge. And I think that's why the work that you do is so important too.
00:22:00
Speaker
I think a lot of the parents that come to me, they come to my page, they often are talking about all the things that you talk about like, oh my goodness, my child only plays with naked Barbies or they're interested in touching themselves or they're interested in all the self exploration and I think we right away turn it to something that's bad or dirty or that we want to stop for our kids. And so I love that you talk about how that's actually really normal.
00:22:23
Speaker
I remember also I went to University of Guelph and they had a lot of sexual development classes and stuff like that there. I know you went to U of T. So they had a great program there. And I also remember taking a class, I think it was sexuality throughout the lifespan or something like that. Yes. I read a lot of books from University of Guelph. So I know that they're one of the leaders. That's really cool.
00:22:42
Speaker
Yeah, they have some really amazing classes there. Yeah. So I remember similar to you and my mind was blown. I was like, Oh my goodness. Okay. So it's not this bad or dirty thing. It's this part of who we are as human beings. So when you're in university, you have all these messages. Sex is bad. You're starting to be really curious. You're reading books. Now you're in these classes. When does your mindset shift into the point where you're like, Oh, this could be a career. This could be something that I really want to educate people on.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, really and truly like day one, I think of journalism school. I mean, that was it. It was that conversation of write what you know. And this is what I knew. Was it as clean as that? Absolutely not. Like I started a website and this is me trying to placate my parents in society. So I called it saveyourcherry.com and I was like, I want to talk about sex, but the purpose is that nobody has it. But I remember the way that I did it. It was like to me, because I was so drawn to fiction novels and fiction books.
00:23:40
Speaker
and movies and porn, so I was like, what do these spaces do really well that sex ed doesn't? They make sex sexy. They make it fun. They make it wet. They make it personal. They make it hot. Sex education should be like that.
00:23:55
Speaker
My idea on saveyourcherry.com was for people to tell their real sex stories and not skimp on the fun parts. Get me invested in the characters. Tell me how you guys first met about the first kiss. Tell me about the awkwardness of buying condoms together, whatever it was. I told my story of my first time in great detail. I also talked about the aftermath in great detail because
00:24:17
Speaker
I was unprepared because I didn't have people to go to because I didn't carry condoms. I ended up having sex with somebody that I just met for the first time. We did not use protection. And for months after, I was convinced I had AIDS. And then I had to figure out by myself, where is the nearest sexual health clinic? And then I had to go there. And I was in tears because of all the shame that I felt to the point that they were like, was this consensual? Like, were you harmed? And it was like, no, I just
00:24:40
Speaker
feel like I've done something so wrong and having to face the idea that this one action that I did could mean the rest of my life. I'm going to be carrying an illness. It was like overwhelming. So I talked about all of that. But the fact that I talked about the sex part in detail in my mom, when she found it, she was just like so mad again, so personal. And she's like, don't you know that boys are going to be laughing and masturbating at you? I'm like, what kind of porn do you watch? We're like, there's a circle joke where people are tickling themselves and reading stories online.
00:25:09
Speaker
In either case, I also use that website in my school, like for like my school email. And I remember teachers saying to me, like, stop using that email address. You need to use something different. Or I had an opportunity to go to like a local news station, like City TV. And when they asked about each student as a small group got to go, they're like, Hey, what are you interested in talking about? And then I wrote my little about me, you know, talk about sex and relationships or whatever. My teacher was like, this is not acceptable.
00:25:33
Speaker
you have to change this to something else. So it wasn't like it was champion. Like once I made this decision and my mom was like that house on fire meme with the dog, I would just be studying all
Challenges in Discussing Sex Publicly
00:25:44
Speaker
the time. I would be in the living room with books. I would be doing this website, collecting stories, asking people for stories, which this was like when Facebook just got started. So everybody was like, you're a weird, creepy man in Minneapolis. Go away.
00:25:57
Speaker
And I'm like, no, no, I swear that this is legit. So I was doing this very silly. My mom was just like, I'm not asking her any questions. I'm not paying attention to this. This is eventually going to go away if I just ignore it. So I had the interest there, but I definitely didn't have the support. So when I came out of school, I happened to find a publishing place that was in California called Seal Press. I was a feminist press that published the book. But by the time the book came out, I was so exhausted from fighting back against people and so exhausted from justifying this. And the book didn't really perform that well.
00:26:26
Speaker
So at that point in time, I was like, okay, I'm going to put this down and pick something else. And then I entered into what I would call lost years, you know, a few years of just being pretty directionless until I eventually came back to this at 28 and then said, no, no, I'm doing this for real.
00:26:41
Speaker
Well, yeah, so many pieces there. It sounds like so much of your journey has been you being like, no, this is really important. We need to share these stories. And what I love about you sharing the stories is you're sharing every piece of it. You're not just saying, here's people meet, they have this amazing sex, and then story over. You're saying, no, here's all the pieces of the journey. Here's how they met. Here's the amazing sex or not.
00:27:02
Speaker
Here's the end. Here's the good, the positive, the bad, the messy. And I think that that is so important. I can see how even in those early days, people would have wanted to read it. And I think people want, they want real stories. I think that's why they still love you now because you're still so honest and you share the real and the messy. And I think that's really, really important.
00:27:22
Speaker
I'm just curious about this from my own perspective, how do you keep going when everyone tells you stop or no or this is bad or this is dirty. How do you have that inside of you to be like, nope, this is important. I'm going to keep going because the people who do want it don't have anywhere else to go and they make sure that you know that. So as much as I had
00:27:42
Speaker
individuals of authority who were like, stop, this is wrong, this is dirty, this is embarrassing, this is shameful. How could you do this to yourself, to your future, to us, to our reputation? My peers and people who were consumers of it were like,
00:27:56
Speaker
I can't even begin to tell you. I knew how I felt when I found those books in the library. I knew that wave of relief that I wasn't broken, that wave of relief that I was enough, that I was normal, that I was good. Giving other people that in real time and seeing that reaction is addictive. That's a drug by itself. You just know that you're doing something worthwhile and meaningful
00:28:19
Speaker
It was messy, and yeah, it definitely wasn't encouraged from top down, but at eye level, I was a hero. I was definitely bullied for it, and I bullied the wrong term. I was like, you know, at the time I was 19. I don't think, I feel like I was past bullying, but it's probably not accurate, but there were definitely people who made fun of me, people who tried to slut-shame me, and I don't know, that's never really, maybe because I was so used to the criticism.
00:28:42
Speaker
It was baked into what I did. Hearing it from people who were my age, like who were eating Lunchables still, like that did not fit me at all. I get that from a different perspective. I mean, I talk about parenting stuff, right? So it's a little bit different. It's definitely not as taboo as talking about sex. But I do remember that when I started my page, it was probably about six and a half years ago.
00:29:04
Speaker
So I've been doing this for a while as well. And when I started, nobody was talking about parenting without punishments. And that was brand new. And when I started talking about it, I did get a lot of pushback too, like from an older generation and from peers, like really, you're going to post on Instagram or, or I knew people would be teasing me or making fun of me behind my back because I mean, my first videos were terrible. And my first blog was terrible, but I can,
00:29:29
Speaker
Really in the piece that when it's aligned with your values and who you are and I know this message is important and it's gonna reach the right person you do you just keep going and you are looking to the people who need it the most and hearing their stories and it sounds like that's really similar to you as well.
00:29:45
Speaker
I can't even, your work takes incredible amounts of bravery. Every time that I watch a video that's about parenting that feels one innocuous or two just relatable or kind of funny or like interesting, I'll go to the comments and I'm like, whoa, I did not anticipate this level of emotional interpretation.
00:30:04
Speaker
it's such a sensitive and similar to sex right like a lot of times when people give me a lot of pushback it's because i know that this is an area of deep sensitivity for them they're afraid of being found out they're afraid of admitting certain things themselves they don't want anyone to talk about it.
00:30:20
Speaker
And they don't want anyone to say anything that challenges how they feel because it's just so raw. It's a wound that they're like, this band-aid over top of it, if I take this off, I am going to bleed out. So I think that with parenting, it's very similar. I mean, it's why very early on when I first had my first daughter, I made a rule on my social media. I'm like, don't talk to me about my parenting at all.
00:30:40
Speaker
I don't need it. I have mother-in-laws, I have people in my life who if I'm doing something that glaringly bad will redirect me, but I cannot handle this level of opinion and emotionality around you guys watching a 15 second, that's when Instagram stories are 15 seconds, watching a 15 second glimpse into my world and just coming up with all these diagnosis for my kids. Whenever I meet people like yourself, one, you are the library to me at 19 years old. I'm like,
00:31:07
Speaker
I genuinely and we're gonna talk about this how much I need your information and need your expertise and your credentials but I also I'm like man kudos to you for doing it cuz I couldn't cuz that that area is is very very vulnerable for people and you know for good reason they care about it and they want to go well yeah it reminds me a lot of what you're saying I think our journeys are kind of similar just in different fields
00:31:27
Speaker
There's definitely a lot of the pushback to and a lot of people who question you, but it's a lot of these deep rooted beliefs that they have because of their own upbringing and their own experiences. And I'm sure that's a lot of what comes into people's hesitations towards talking about sex or sexuality or their children.
00:31:43
Speaker
So back to your story, I'm curious. So now you said I think you're 26 or 28 and you decide, you took a little break, which makes sense. Like the burnout that you can feel when you work so hard on a product, like a book, and it doesn't do super well. And you're like, okay, maybe I just need to step back. What made you decide to get back into it and what did getting back into it look like for you at the time? I was doing wedding photography because
00:32:07
Speaker
I needed to make money. And that was kind of the thing, right? So I was doing wedding photography and living with a partner in Toronto. And I had cried in every square centimeter of that apartment.
00:32:20
Speaker
I remember there was like a Cane's deep dish advertising outside my window. And to this day, if I see that cake, it like makes me break into tears because I would just stare at this billboard and just sob. I was just so unhappy. And I got a random call from BET and they were putting together a panel of people and they're looking for a sex and relationship expert. And obviously I had this book.
00:32:42
Speaker
And it was published in California, so it was North American published. That didn't do well, but I guess did well enough that it came across their radar. And they were like, would you like to come down to Los Angeles and audition? And then I was like, well, I put this away. I put the side of myself away, and I don't really know. And of course, I'm like, whatever, I'll just go and do it. And it was one of those things, too, where the producer reached out several times. And the first time, I was like, nah. Second time, I was like, maybe. And then the third, I was like, OK, whatever. I'll just go. It's a week, right?
00:33:10
Speaker
I actually had a friend who lived in LA so I could stay with them, so it worked out fine. And then I came and I just had such a blast. I loved it. I loved the conversations. I loved the energy. I loved the me. I loved the me that I got to be when I was talking about this from a place of expertise, of authority, and doing so in front of people who wanted that information and wanted that side of me was just so much fun. And when I went back home, went back to this life, and that show never got picked up.
00:33:40
Speaker
But if you're familiar with the immigration process, if you have a deal memo, you can use that as like a case study for immigration. So I ended up having to start applying for my visa anyways, because on the chance that it did get picked up, I would have to go and be able to work. So midway through my application, I found out that the show wasn't going to happen. And then I was at this crossroads like, okay, where I can just stay in my life here.
00:34:02
Speaker
There's no real reason for me to change anything or to move, and if I did, there's nothing there for me. But I was like, I've tried life this way, and I tried to do it everybody else's way. It's just not working for me. What's so wrong with trying one more time? And so I came here under the premise that I would just stay for a couple months, and I'm about to celebrate 10 years here next year.
00:34:23
Speaker
Wow. So you made the move just thinking to yourself, well, you know what, maybe one last try. We'll just see how it goes. And I can relate to how you're feeling like you're doing the show, even though it didn't get picked up. You're like, yeah, okay. I'm speaking for the place of authority. I'm walking in my calling. This is what I meant to do. And it's that renewed light or excitement.
00:34:43
Speaker
So what did you do when you got there? So you moved to LA? Are you still with your partner at the time? Yes. So because I was only coming for two months, I was like, we're going to break our lease, but don't worry. We're still going to stay together, which we should not have been together to begin with, let alone I moved in, let alone I've tried long distance. If you guys can't figure it out when you're staying in the same bed, you're not going to be able to figure it out when your world's apart. I'm using a broad term. I'm sure someone's sitting listening right now being like, that's exactly how my marriage happened and we're happier.
00:35:12
Speaker
And we have ever been. So not to say that that can't be someone else's story, but for me personally, yeah, if you can't figure it out with somebody when you are nose to nose in the morning, when you live countries apart, it's just going to get even worse. And yeah, I came here.
00:35:25
Speaker
slept on a couch, came down with just my car, kind of the standard story, and then just hustled. That was it. I woke up every single day. I was actually reflecting on this because when I came to LA, I used to hate the weekends because I had no money and I couldn't do anything. One, but two, like all I wanted to do was work. And when people were getting out of a work mentality, it was like, you know, well, now I went to school for sexology when I got here. So I was like, okay, I wanted to get stronger into my expertise. And so,
00:35:50
Speaker
I went to a school in San Francisco and I was there wasn't a lot of people like me, you know, so I was getting opportunities pretty early on, you know, obviously, as you probably can attest to, I mean, obviously, it's different if you work in clinical, but if you're working in media, and you don't have a lot of experience, and you're just doing, you know, one off opportunities here and there,
00:36:09
Speaker
They're few and far between. You're not making a great living. I was probably making around $12,000 a year, but even then I had come here and I was doing photo booths as a way to keep myself afloat. But I was hustling and I was in school and I was working and I was working a regular job to keep myself afloat.
The Role of Education and Experience in Parenting
00:36:23
Speaker
I was just in it. There's a couple of times in my life where I've just been in complete awe of myself, of the resilience, of the determination, of the stick-to-itiveness. One would be when I was 19 and I started
00:36:35
Speaker
my savior cherry journey when everybody was saying no, no, no. And I'm like, this is important, has to be done. And second would be when I was 28, which is probably about 10 years apart in each time, where I moved to LA and I was like, I'm going to make this work. And people are like, what's this? And then at the time even, nope, there wasn't a lot of familiarity around sex experts and sexologists. Like these were all like concepts that no one had heard of before. So I really feel like I was a part of
00:37:00
Speaker
a group of people who really made this. Dr. Ruth, of course, existed in Sue Johansson, but those were older white figures. I was one of the first who looked like me in my age group to dare to ask people to look at me as a voice of authority on a topic that they feel very sensitive on already. It was a wild ride and I'm really compressed with myself that I stuck to it.
00:37:22
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely think you should be. I think that's the point in that so many people do not even give up, but they just say, Oh, maybe this opportunity is not here for me. But it's that showing up every day and trying and trying and learning more and putting yourself out there so vulnerable is really difficult to do. So I love that you just you kept going.
00:37:41
Speaker
When you did your certification in sexology, did that change things for you a little bit, having more of that education or was it all kind of things that you had already learned through reading but now you just had the diploma of their certificate? Yeah, I actually did my expertise somewhat backwards. So I went to school for journalism, graduated, then I went to a CE course at U of T and then got certified as a sex ed counselor.
00:38:03
Speaker
And then I worked there like really casually in like my early twenties. But when I turned 25, my book came out. I'm like, to hell with all of this. And so when I came out here, I was like, okay, I want to improve my education. So then I got certified as a sexologist and I got an associate in sex ed. And then only like a few years ago, did I go back and like complete my bachelor's. I'm about to finish my master's.
00:38:24
Speaker
December I'll be done with that one I did it in psychology so it's a weird thing because I can't really draw the strongest of parallels because I don't work as you do right so I don't work clinically and I don't work in a field that I need to be licensed in so is there a direct correlation
00:38:39
Speaker
between my education and my earning capacity? I'm not sure. Is there a direct correlation between my knowledge and my formal education? Yes, but also no, because I can definitely say that the informal knowledge that I just gained by putting myself out there listening to people's stories, my number one educator, bar none, has been other human beings.
00:39:00
Speaker
There's a public figure i have access to so many people stories so many people's truth and if i go to the grocery store i'm gonna get somebody else's information tell me about something that they do that i've never heard of before so number one my biggest education has been the public number two is probably been more the informal education i picked up things i was naturally interested in.
00:39:17
Speaker
and definitely school has been supportive and has brought new ideas but it's so prescriptive right it's not it doesn't follow your natural interest it doesn't care if you already know something so that strictness that rigidity within a space that i was already playing in helped but i i can't say for how much i'm not gonna stop i think i actually might do my phd after my masters
00:39:39
Speaker
So I see value in it and also gives me peace of mind. Like even for my kids, I didn't grow up with parents who were like, go to school, go to school. They were more like, how are you going to make money? For my kids, I think I will push school on them because it just provides a safety net. Just that idea that you have something that no one else can take away from you. So I think that that's what education has provided me with. It's provided me with a little bit more confidence and then more footing and in a field that we're in, which
00:40:06
Speaker
things could get taken away in a second, right? It's nice to have that assurance. I don't know. How do you feel about it for you? I mean, yeah, yeah, I totally get that. I feel like I'm so thankful for my education. Also, I love my parents very dearly, but no one in my family had gone and done the university education before. So I was the first one. So that was for them a big deal at the time. And I already knew similar to you that I wanted to work with people. That was always what I knew I wanted to do. I always had this passion for just,
00:40:34
Speaker
being curious and understanding people's stories even in high school i'm like asking my friends is like deep life questions like something that usually a sixteen year old not maybe thinking about asking but i've always had that inclination and then going from there i did some post grad work in behavior and then i did.
00:40:51
Speaker
my master's degree in counseling psychology. But I agree with you that the education is so important and I'm really thankful for it and I would definitely push my daughters to do it as well. But I think I've learned the most through actually talking to people and doing the actual work. So being whether that's a clinician actually
00:41:10
Speaker
hearing people's stories in therapy and be like wow okay everyone's story is so unique and how everyone gets to where they are so unique or kids like one of the behavior programs i took that was a post-grad program was so specific it was like if you have a kid and they have this behavior you do x and then if that doesn't work then you do this.
00:41:28
Speaker
And I found in my work with kids that that just approach doesn't work, right? Every child is so unique. And now I've heard, I've run nurtured first now for, like I said, six and a half years. So I've heard thousands and thousands of family stories. And I think that's really helped me see every kid is so unique. And, and so I can definitely relate to a lot of your, your experience saying that I'm glad I have the credentials because I think it's really important. And I think I learned a lot through school, especially being a clinician.
00:41:55
Speaker
Do you think you need to have the educational background to be a public facing parental expert? I think it's really important. Yes. I mean, I think there's a lot of parent experts who maybe don't have the education, but I would say that along with the education comes the clinical experience. And I think there's a lot of parenting pages out there that are amazing. And so I don't want to bash anybody who hasn't had the clinical experience, but I do think it brings a different level.
00:42:21
Speaker
for the parenting space when you have actually worked with kids and you've worked with families and you have all of this broad range of experiences because it's really not black and white and I think it can feel really black and white. And I know that the regulations and what you have to do to get licensed is different in Canada than the states as well. So I can't always speak to the American accounts because in Canada with the license that I have, it's like thousands of supervised clinical hours. Like there's just so much work that goes into it.
00:42:50
Speaker
That's a good question. That's one I think about a lot, but I do think it is important if you're gonna speak about parenting and be an expert in it to have that background. I don't know. What do you think? You probably follow lots of different parenting pages, so I'm curious what you think. I think that whether or not the information is applicable, I think that the devotion and that curiosity does say something. I think that I naturally take in parenting advice from tons of people. Advice is the wrong term. I like
00:43:20
Speaker
like to hear their experiences, and I like to weigh those experiences against my own and consider those experiences. But I think if I was going for help or for actual advice, something a bit more formulaic, I would look for that. But it's interesting because that's something I've always noticed even in two, of being a parent online is people are so passionate about this area because they've done it. It's coming from a place of care and love. If you just ran a marathon and a friend's about to run one, it's this thing that you did that was
00:43:49
Speaker
hard and gruesome but like glorious and fun and a once in a lifetime experience like you want to tell all these experiences and stories that person but like they have a completely different body than you and they're running a whole different course but because your experience was so profound you just feel really passionate about pass this information on.
00:44:06
Speaker
So I think having more of a measured outlook and like you said, even rejecting the notions of that course is helpful. Taking a course that was the wrong course that made you consider that like, oh, like being this prescriptive does not actually make applicable sense. Even that aha is something really valuable. Absolutely. Yeah. But I think that there, there's pages for different reasons too. There's some pages I followed just because I really enjoy the person, the mom, let's say on the parenting page and like,
00:44:34
Speaker
I feel aligned with you. I understand you. And even though maybe you don't have the education, just you speaking about your lived experiences helps me. So I think that there's different pages maybe like you were saying for different reasons that can be really supportive in the sex space and in the parenting space too.
00:44:50
Speaker
So I'm curious for you, I know when I was talking to my team about interviewing you, they were all like, oh, she's the girl from Too Hot to Handle, and they were talking about how they saw you on the show. So how did that feel for you when you started to become more of this public figure, famous, people are recognizing you? How does the messages that you grew up hearing about sex being bad or these things being wrong, and now you're this public figure who talks about this full time, you're on these big shows, how does that translate in your own mind?
Public Awareness on Sexuality and Relationships
00:45:20
Speaker
It was so slow that it's not, I don't know, I feel like I don't have a strong answer to that question because I always describe myself as the person whom it's not like, oh my gosh, I saw you at the bottom of the hill and then I went and had a sandwich and now you're at the top partying with Leonardo DiCaprio. It's like, oh no, I saw you at the bottom of the hill and then I went and took a snack and then you somehow slid back even further. And then I went to university for four years and I came back and looked at you and
00:45:46
Speaker
you had made your way one quarter out. I feel like my progress is so logically lined up with how much time I've been in this space and to almost to the point that I'm like, damn, how am I not further ahead? But it's a positive thing. I mean, I think that in general, I'm just happy to see that I feel more of a strong reaction towards the topic. So if I reflect on my own progress, I'm like, oh, that doesn't really feel that like meteoritic. Meteoratic, what's the word for that?
00:46:13
Speaker
But if i think about sex like when i first started talking about sex orgasm gap was three to one now it's two to one that's a very baseline stat to say like things are dramatically improved when i first started talking about sex the whole conversation was around how do women orgasm removed way past that the common joke was like where's the clitoris now that's the stupidest thing in the world to me like right there.
00:46:37
Speaker
What are we talking about? Why was this this thing when we were growing up like so confusing? It's so hard to find like it's really and truly it's external like I see it so like have you looked at all like that's as a parent right when your kid is like I can't find this and then you walk into the room and it's like right there on the bed like did you look at all so I think about that you know people know about attachment styles and know about love language people can have these enhanced conversations around like their triggers and their
00:47:05
Speaker
Sexual breaks and accelerators. I'm talking about people in my field. I'm talking about somebody that I saw at the grocery store. I'm talking about a Gen Z who interacted with me on TikTok. I am marveled at that. The pandemic definitely put intimacy in the microwave
00:47:22
Speaker
If people didn't care about it before, they cared about it then because you were with that person all the time. So if you got away with, okay, whatever I learned in sex ed is enough or I don't need to go to therapy until there's a major problem. If you got away with those mindsets in 2020, you were not slipping by like that. You had to really be manual and mindful about this space.
00:47:41
Speaker
I'm amazed at how much this space has grown because when I first started and I told people I talk about sex for a living, I might as well have told them that I talk about the cracks in hardwood floors. People were like, so obscure. How do you find enough people who care about that? You're like, how the fuck do you think you got here? What? It was like that. So that's what really blows me away.
00:48:04
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. I totally get that too. It's like, I mean, even since, yeah, I was in school to now, I feel like the orgasm gap, like, I feel like that was this mind blowing thing. And now it's like, okay, we're all talking about it. I mean, and that's on Instagram too. And we're all talking about these things.
00:48:19
Speaker
which I feel like people like you have made that a normal conversation that people are having with their partners too. I think you're right, 2020 shook everybody up and now everyone's home with their families. Yes. I'm sure the parenting space too, that would have exploded things big time.
00:48:35
Speaker
Yes, it was definitely a shift we noticed as well in 2020 in the parenting space. And similar to what you were saying, for us it was the, I used to talk a lot about spanking and how like people don't spank their kids or timeouts. And I feel like a lot of these things we came, when I first started talking about them was mind blowing for people, right? Like, Oh,
00:48:54
Speaker
There's a different way. There's a different way to parent without punishment. And now that I've been doing it so long, similar to you, I see this shift. And I love it for me as a clinician because it's challenges me to keep learning and to keep growing and to keep giving everybody new information that can be really, really helpful. And I wonder, do you feel the same way? Like you, you have to keep growing because people are, they know more now too. 1000%
00:49:18
Speaker
1000%. And I get sick of the same conversation sometimes. And I know that you could be having it with multiple people and that they can bring something more fresh to it because they may have the passion. Like when I first discovered the clitoris, when I first discovered, you know, not just the clitoris, like where it is, but the fact that it's this wishbone and then the size of it. And like the way that I could talk about that 10, 15, 20 years ago is very different from how we'll talk about it now.
00:49:45
Speaker
So you should talk to the person who just discovered it and has that light and that beam in their eyes. So I don't even want to be recycling the same knowledge over and over again. So yeah, I definitely am. And I'm always learning. That's what's really great about this. I've actually just gotten into the realm of sacred sexuality. I always apply everything just from like, if it doesn't have like a logical benefit to me or I actually don't have
00:50:07
Speaker
real evidence that this is a thing, I'm not going to pick it up. There are parts of sacredness or spirituality that I'm not going to start buying sex toys that are crystals that I charge by the moon, just because I've put on bracelets before that are certain colors and certain stones. I've really felt no logical impact from that. There's parts of it that I would invest myself in. There's other parts that I
00:50:28
Speaker
Don't i think previously because there were parts i didn't invest i just wrote the whole thing off but after becoming a mom of a second kid for sure for me i definitely start to look at my body in a more sacred fashion started to look at myself as a sexual being in a very different more theory away so parts of those practices are now that i'm starting to get my toes into and learn more so that's something really new for me that i'm excited to bring into the work that i do.
00:50:54
Speaker
I love that. Yeah, I love being on this journey of continuing to learn more and shift the way that you work.
00:51:01
Speaker
You mentioned having your second baby, and I know a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are parents. How did kind of moving from being this sexologist, popular person who talks about their sex life, now you're a parent and you're going through pregnancies and you're going through breastfeeding and postpartum, how did that impact you and impact the way you saw
Motherhood and Changing Perspectives on Intimacy
00:51:21
Speaker
yourself? You shared a little bit about it. Yeah, it changed me in a big way. I have this video.
00:51:27
Speaker
that I filmed when I was pregnant and I was pregnant during the pandemic. That was called why I didn't want to be a mom before.
00:51:34
Speaker
But in essence, I watched her think back to that video a lot because there were so many assumptions that I made about what my life as a mom would be like. And it wasn't helpful that at the time people would be like, bitch, you're going to change. People were like, this is not going to last. You're going to change. You're not going to feel this way. And I was like, but I will, I will. And I was very like, indignant about it. Looking back now, I'm like, oh my gosh, so much has changed, but not in a bad way. And I'm actually grateful that it's like when you're
00:51:59
Speaker
swept up right so a rush of water comes in and you're trying to hold on to all of your belongings and then people could be watching you saying like there's no point you're gonna lose it all to the water and they're gonna be correct for a large portion of that you're not gonna be able to hold onto many of the things that you're trying to carry in your hand but it's better than not even trying at all.
00:52:18
Speaker
So there were parts of myself, like my sexual self, the way that other people saw me, the way that I showed up, the way that I dressed or presented that I was really like trying to hold on to. And I lost a lot of that. That's not bad. Some of those things I just, and it's not like, um, I just, I replaced them with other things with time with my kids. I replaced them with different things that are,
00:52:36
Speaker
different, just not the same. So I think I definitely, yeah, I don't have a clean answer to that other than it's not what I thought, but it's not as bad as some people would say. And it's better in many areas and not as great in some areas. And I'm okay with all of that. When I look at the cost benefit, when I look at how I netted out in the end, I'm grateful for the changes that I went through. And I also think the
00:53:03
Speaker
greatest thing of all, right? Like this is what I do for a living. So this just provided so much more context for the work that I do and allowed me to broaden out who and how I talk. So I think that I may have gotten a little bit bored even from a career standpoint, if I didn't have to go through all these changes, it took a lot of examination. But in the end, if you stick to it with yourself,
00:53:24
Speaker
and you don't try to hold on too tightly to what you were and try to embrace and let go, because it can be really fun to be caught up and swept up in the water storm if you let yourself. But yeah, find that fine balance between trying to hold on for dear life and trying to have the time of your life just with how much is coming at you at one time. I think that's the sweet spot that sometimes I figure out.
00:53:46
Speaker
Right now, I have figured that out. When I first had my daughter, it was not something that I had figured out. And I'm sure in a couple months, I might feel differently. So I also give myself that grace. Yeah. I visualize, I love the metaphors that you have too. And I would always say to the parents that I was working with, it's like someone's throwing balls at you and like you can catch one and then you can catch the other one. But then there's only so many that you can catch and then the balls start dropping, right? So then you have to decide, well, what am I going to hold on to? And what am I going to just drop on the floor?
00:54:16
Speaker
I think that being a sexual person and being a parent there's some balls you can hold onto and then maybe some that drop to the floor and some that you pick up later. What were those pieces of yourself that you decided I want to hold onto this like when everything's being swept away and you're a new mom what are the things that make shan-chan that you're still holding on to.
00:54:36
Speaker
I still have a lot of sex and even like last time my husband and I were like, you know, tired. It's the weekend. The weekend always kind of like wipes you out because you're like, every day is 12 hours of nonstop activity. So we're watching a TV show. We're both so tired and we're like too tired to have showered, which is TMI, right? But then we had this short exchange that could be sexual, the short glimmer of like sensuality that passed between us.
00:55:00
Speaker
I just asked the question practically should we have sex yes the answer is always yes okay so what am i trading off i'm not getting to shower and shave and put on matching bra and underwear and set the tone like me my partner started off as strictly.
00:55:16
Speaker
Sex buddies so there was something so beautiful about that because I we were so Intentional about the sex that we were having that's there wasn't like when you're dating somebody you're like, maybe we will maybe we won't so you're not really Emphasizing it. No, that's what we did like when I met my husband I just got none of that long-term toxic relationship that long-distance one So I was fully aware I was not ready for anything kind of emotional and I was like, I just want to have fun I want to apply the information I learned about sex I want to do it with a great sexual partner and I wanted to be easy and fun and I don't want to get caught up in them and
00:55:46
Speaker
Every time he would come over, it was like lighting candles and preparing my body and trying different oils. It was such delight and I loved the preparation. I love that mindfulness. I got this huge projector and I was living in a studio apartment at the time.
00:56:03
Speaker
And I would put it over our bed and then I would think about what colors, what images. And when my husband first met me, I thought for sure you were into psychedelics because your whole room, your whole setup was so out of this world. And I'm just not at all. I don't even drink. So I was like, yeah, that was amazing. And I'm lighting up talking about it. Is that anything close to my life right now? No.
00:56:26
Speaker
We're having sex in between a commercial break on Hulu after both of us are like not proud of how we climbed into bed, but we're just doing it because we still want that connection. We still want that piece. Like that's the ball.
00:56:39
Speaker
that we have convicted ourselves to holding onto our hands. I'm really proud of us for that. And there have been times during my second pregnancy I experienced record-breaking low libido, which I'm so glad to have had that because that let me understand. As somebody who's had high libido for their whole life, arguably, experiencing that level of lowness was like, oh, I get it. Not only do I not have the drive, the thought of it repulses me.
00:57:04
Speaker
That just gave me so much more connectivity to my audience and community who has experienced, you know, HSDD or something similar. So, not to say that I always, you know, have sex with my partner and I always force myself, but if we have that moment, that little thing that's like, ooh, is that what I think it is? I'll build on that. And we both have a devotion to build on that.
00:57:24
Speaker
Yeah, there's so many things that you said that I really enjoy there. But I think first off the spark, I think sometimes a lot of the parents that I would work with who really struggled to find that sexual piece of themselves back postpartum, which I personally know I have three kids so
00:57:39
Speaker
I could really relate to you saying in your second pregnancy, you just didn't have libido at all. I remember feeling that way too and actually like wondering, is there something seriously wrong with me? Like, why can't I feel this way? And then talking to other moms and a lot of them, my friends being like, Oh, I've been there too. And, and realizing that that maybe is a hormonal or
00:57:59
Speaker
part of being sick and having other kids and all of those things. So yes, yes, yes. The fact that you went through that I'm sure can really make you relatable and understand people who have gone through that in a different way and how actually difficult that can be like within your relationship too.
00:58:15
Speaker
And then I love that you talk about the spark and that's something that I think can be so helpful for people to realize that when those little sparks happen then okay maybe that's the time to to lean into that and to see if if it's going to go somewhere and maybe it's not and that's okay too but do you have any advice for the parent listening because I know we have tons of parents listening who maybe feel like they've totally lost that side of themselves and maybe there's one little tip that you have for them. Yeah totally is something that
00:58:44
Speaker
might take clinical intervention, right? If you don't ever, if you didn't acknowledge, I think when we were growing up, it was the fireworks. If I desired somebody or I desired my part when we first met even, it was a grand display of fireworks that you couldn't ignore.
00:58:58
Speaker
It's the sound, it's the visual, it's the smell, all that's in your face. And then when you get older, you go through different periods of time in your life where you have different competing priorities. It's not fireworks anymore. It is like a spark. And it's so unnoticeable at times. Like, did I just see that spark happen? And then if you just continue to move on, you could forget that it even happened. But saying, I saw that spark and then having to look back and then going to inspect further and then trying to tend to make it grow.
00:59:23
Speaker
It does take I think when you have that even you've got something that happens throughout the day like there is and I've said this to my husband after our first kid where I'm like There needs to be foreplay all day long It can't just be that we are in this job that is so sexless by nature like parenting is so
00:59:42
Speaker
selfless and so sexless and I think that you know sex and self and selfishness really go beautifully together like it's a place of indulgence right so I'm not indulging anything all day long like I'm eating scraps off the floor when I get a chance I'm pooping in the room with me like there's not a lot of indulgence going on so
01:00:01
Speaker
If i'm not in that mindset all day long expecting me to transfer over just like that to go from robotic factory worker to porn star or two sexual goddess you know just like that just doesn't make sense so when i'm changing the diapers and i'm bent over if you see that little spark.
01:00:21
Speaker
slap my ass, you know what I mean? If I see you with spit up and you take your shirt off because a baby just vomited on it, and for a second I'm like, oh, this bite looks great. I got to say that out loud. We have to be nurturing this all day long so that when we fall into bed and we have no energy left, we still have that remnants of fire that started in us. So the advice I would give is for people who have at least that little something. If you don't experience anything at all,
01:00:49
Speaker
I think that could be something that you talk to a doctor about in the form of HSDD, which is hypoactive sexual desire disorder, or it could be something that in terms of your dynamic where you're not even given an opportunity to see your partner in that light at all, just because there's resentment or other feelings or inequality, or maybe they're not even present. You can't even see they're asked to feel those feelings, right? That's a big part of it too. You're gone to work all day. You're not communicating with me. You're not giving me moments of check-in, and when you come home,
01:01:16
Speaker
I have to really coerce you into being active here. Like you're not giving me chances to even feel that. So I think you got to have at least something. That's when you can build off of it. Yeah. And I love how you say it can just be so little. I remember saying, and I can hear Scott, my husband's in the background here kind of laughing too, but I remember we've been in this same position where I'm like, man, I'm covered in breast milk. I'm disgusting. I'm like,
01:01:42
Speaker
Like there's literally no part of me that feels like a sexual person. So to just like switch your brain, like that's just not something that you're comfortable doing, right? So I love that idea of you're nurturing that throughout the day or throughout the week or whatever it is and being like, is there something little there? I think that's really an easy way for parents to, to make a little shift. And there's things that societally for men, parenting is sexy. Societally we've been conditioned to think that like a man who's with the kids,
01:02:11
Speaker
is sexy, but for men, mothering isn't sexy, and maybe if it is, that's conceived as something strange. So if you see the mother of your children being a really great mom, that may not be a turn on for you, but you have to be manual about that. Even asking yourself when your brain registers, like, oh, that's nice, ask your genitals how they feel about it.
01:02:31
Speaker
Oh, Volva, how do you feel about this moment? Penis, how do you feel about this moment? That can feel strange because again, this is such an asexual activity by nature, but engaging yourself all day long in these little moments and opportunities to feel desire for your partner.
Maintaining Connection Post-Parenting
01:02:48
Speaker
I'm using the word sex here. It could just be intimate desire period.
01:02:51
Speaker
I don't just want you because you're the only other person who can help me in this crazy amount of work. I want you because you're desirable. I desire closeness with you. So yeah, it doesn't have to net out to sex, but it's just like a low hanging fruit.
01:03:07
Speaker
Why do you think that men, I mean, this is a whole other podcast possibly, so we can keep this part short, but why do you think men don't see women who are being motherly as sexy, but women see dads? I mean, this is a huge question. And I know it's true, women see dads as sexy when they're being dads. What do you think that is about men who see mothers as just motherly and not necessarily as sexy?
01:03:31
Speaker
It just feels like societal conditioning to me. Like what we're just, you know, grown up to see, you know, it's even the MILF thing, right? Like you're sexy for a mom and just the idea that you're not sexy once you are. And maybe that some kind of Oedipus complex origins there where men have to disassociate themselves from their mother or even being viewed as mama's boys is negative. And so like the idea of mother is just like not sexy or something you don't think about. I don't want to get too like,
01:03:57
Speaker
heading into that, but for whatever reason, societally, it's just, that's it. A mom being a mom is nice, it's expected, one, it's expected, it could be nice, it could be warm. I'm trying to conjure up the images I even see when I'm watching parenting videos, right? When you see a mom with a baby, but when you see a dad with a baby, yeah, there definitely is a different tone, a different respect level, and a different noticing. I can't attribute that to anything other than societal conditioning.
01:04:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think it makes sense. I mean, we even laugh when my husband goes out. I mean, all the praise that he gets if he's out with the three girls on his own, right? It's like, oh my goodness, a dad out with three daughters. Like what could be more attractive to anyone, right? So I totally get that. That's why I was curious about it. Now, just to wrap up, you have two kids. They see you doing this job. What messages do you hope to give them about sex that maybe you didn't get or a lot of kids don't get? How do you want them to see you and to see sex and intimacy?
01:04:54
Speaker
I want for this to be a mix of math and art because I often can describe this conversation like math, right? So it should be buildable knowledge. Math doesn't start off at calculus. You start off at arithmetic or even just identifying numbers, right? So one plus one equals two. So similarly right now, my kids are three, well, one's supposed to be three and one is one years old. The three-year-old can identify vulva. She can identify
01:05:20
Speaker
the parts of her which identify nipples, right? So that's like numbers, like here's what numbers actually are. And so I hope this conversation evolves over time, but it's not math because it's not so fixed, right? It's poetry because I have to be flexible and valuable to our dynamic, to her interests, to her needs.
01:05:38
Speaker
to her curiosities. So I want to continue to evolve the conversation and to help it grow. And so that it's one day she wakes up and she's doing calculus and it's nothing for her just because this has been a part of the fabric and culture of our family from the beginning. But maybe she doesn't want to do calculus. Maybe she wants to do statistics or something else. So
01:05:59
Speaker
I would like to be in tune enough to be like, okay, she's actually not interested in that. And that especially speaks to the, obviously, the LGBTQ community, you know, her sexual needs, the messages that she requires could be very different depending on how she identifies. So I do want to be poetic in that where I'm coming at this from a place of feeling, not a place of omnipotence. Like, mommy knows all. Mommy will tell you what to do. Mommy will tell you what to learn next. I do hope that I'm able to maintain that because that's not something that I had growing up.
01:06:27
Speaker
I love that. I think the words that you just said in tune, I think that's what I want from my daughters too. I just want to be in tune with whatever it is that they want to bring to me. I don't want to shut them down or make them feel bad or make them feel like they can't talk to me about something. I just think the word in tune in terms of everything parenting is just so wise and so profound for our kids. And I love that. And I love that we can end on that note.
01:06:51
Speaker
Thank you so much, Shan, for coming. This was an amazing conversation. I just have appreciated you for so, so long, and it's been amazing to get to talk to you today. Where can people find you if they want to find some more information on sex or follow your Insta page? You have a podcast that's called Lovers and Friends, and it's a topic-based podcast, so you can actually scroll through it like you would a Google search and then see what episode title interests you, and that's what the episode's going to be about.
01:07:18
Speaker
I do have a couple of parenting and sex and intimacy videos on there. I have tons of really great conversations with my husband, which I think are helpful for people to see modeled. And so yeah, that would be a great place to go. Awesome. Thank you so much. So happy that you came on today. Thank you for having me. Let's head over to coffee time where Scott and I share some of our reflections from this amazing conversation.
01:07:48
Speaker
So in the last part of the conversation, Shannon and I were talking about having sex postpartum. And we were talking about how difficult it can be to feel the desire to have sex when you have little children at home, you feel touched out. I was saying like, there's times I'm like covered in breast milk. Like when I was like just postpartum, right? And I'm like, literally I'm crunchy from it.
01:08:09
Speaker
Like my body is so gross. And that's just the last thing on your mind. And so we were talking about how can someone get those pieces of themselves back postpartum. And then Shannon and I also had a really interesting conversation that I wanted to bring up again to you, Scott, because I felt like we could have gone really like a lot deeper in it. We were talking about how men, like if you go out in public with the three girls, it's like,
01:08:33
Speaker
Oh my goodness. Like you have, you have women coming up to you. You have people talking to you, looking at you because you're like this man, this dad out there with three kids. He's so involved. He's so involved. Like what an incredible father he's out with his kids. Whereas I go out with the three kids and it's like, Oh, you must have your hands full.
01:08:51
Speaker
I mean I do get those comments too. But yeah, it's more often like I remember being in a bookstore and being with I think it was the two older girls and like I had so many women come up to me and comment and like
01:09:06
Speaker
more than it never happens otherwise or very rarely. Yeah. But yeah, they're coming up to me and maybe they're not flirting. But it's definitely like all of a sudden women come up to me and are commenting and like saying all these things and recognizing, wow, what a good dad for hanging out with his two girls and going to the bookstore with them and looking at books with them and reading
Gendered Parenting Comments and Sexual Identity
01:09:29
Speaker
to them. Right. Versus, have you ever experienced that? I feel like you do those things more than I do and you still don't receive those kinds of comments.
01:09:36
Speaker
Oh no, I never get that kind of common if I'm out with the kids. It's always like, oh wow, yeah, you must have your hands full. You've got a lot going on, mama. And like, I mean, yes, first of all, I do have my hands full, but it's different. And yeah, Shannon and I talked a little bit about those different messages and then saying how moms, like it can be hard for us to feel like a sexual person again, postpartum. And I know that that's definitely something that a lot of the moms I've worked with have felt.
01:10:03
Speaker
they kind of feel like they lose that part of themselves. And I think a difference between men and women, especially in that postpartum season is how like truly physical motherhood is when you're a brand new mom. Yeah. I mean, you have a dinner plate sized wound inside of you, right? So.
01:10:21
Speaker
Yeah. Like, I mean, TMI, but when the placenta comes out, like they showed us with a couple of our kids, they showed us what it looked like and it's humongous. Yeah. You start postpartum off with this huge wound in your body. Nevermind the whole experience of giving birth, which can be completely traumatic and very difficult to have your sex drive back, especially if you've had a traumatic birth experience. And then on top of that, if you're breastfeeding or not,
01:10:46
Speaker
There's milk coming out, there's hormones, you're healing. There's so much stuff going on. Yeah, there's a lot of changes in your body that are happening.
01:10:54
Speaker
And I remember that being like really difficult because then you're thinking to yourself, like I am basically my body is embodying motherhood right now. Like that's, that's what my body is doing. And so that sexual person that maybe used to be there or even just that person who you were before you had a baby, it can feel really lost for a long time. Like I guess, when does that become a problem though? Cause I feel like after you had all three girls, it's not like I'm pressuring you. I'm basically like,
01:11:24
Speaker
Take your time. I'm not gonna pressure you into doing something after I've seen what you went through. Yeah. But is that because women are feeling that they're pressured into, like, why is this a challenge, I guess, for women? Is it because they feel like it may never be something they want to do again, or they feel like they're, yeah, being pressured into doing it way earlier than they want to?
Communication and Relationship Dynamics Postpartum
01:11:46
Speaker
I think there's a few layers. I think in some relationships there can feel like this pressure. And if being sexual together, it was like a very big part of your relationship. Again, like every relationship is different. But if that was a huge part of your relationship before you had a baby, then I think.
01:12:01
Speaker
it can be really difficult after you've had a baby because all of a sudden you don't have that same drive, but your partner does. Like they go back to their normal life, right? And you are still yourself. So I think that can be really hard, especially for a lot of the moms that I've worked with. Like we've had to talk a lot about that. I think there's a piece
01:12:21
Speaker
that can feel like rejection to the partner, right? So let's say you're, you're coming on to me, you're like trying to get something going and every single time I'm like, no, no, no, no. But you're not understanding like how I'm feeling or you're not able to get curious about why that's so difficult for me. Then your defenses are going to come up and you're like, I'm being rejected.
01:12:40
Speaker
you know, you're rejecting me as a person. And instead of understanding that, oh, no, my partner's going through all of these things. When she says no to me, it actually has nothing to do with her not finding me attractive or her not enjoying my company. It has everything to do with like all these internal things she's going through. So I think that can be a real struggle in relationship. And then I think one of the biggest things for a woman of why it's hard to lose that sex drive and lose that part of yourself is it's truly that it feels like you've lost a piece of who you are.
01:13:08
Speaker
Like you used to be this person who was interested in having sex and maybe as a sexual being and now you are not. So it actually feels like a grief maybe of like, I've lost this piece of myself and like you said, I don't know when I'm going to get it back. And I think that can be very difficult for moms. It's like, I've lost myself to that and now motherhood feels all consuming and I don't know where this previous version of me is. Fair enough. I can see all of those reasons. Yeah, I think there's, there's a lot going on there.
01:13:38
Speaker
Is there a solution to all of them? Yeah. Well, I was going to move into solutions so that we don't just stick in the hard, but I honestly think of all the things that I talked to new moms about in my practice as well. Like this comes up so, so often and every mom is like, wait, I'm not the only mom who feels that way. Like it feels so lonely and isolating and I feel like I'm the worst partner. And so I think it's really important to name that. One of the things that Shannon and I talked about that can be helpful.
01:14:05
Speaker
is finding what she calls sparks. So Shannon was saying that when you first get into a relationship, maybe it feels like fireworks. Like every time you want to kiss your partner, you want to be alone together, all of that. And then as time goes on and you have babies and things change, like you need to find the sparks. So like a little moment when you're like, oh, I might be interested in this and move with the spark and allow yourself to just see where that
Reshaping Sexual Messages for Children
01:14:32
Speaker
goes.
01:14:32
Speaker
any parent who's listening to this podcast and who feels like, man, A, I was raised with really shameful messages about sex, so dang, I have a lot of work to do on myself to unpack where those messages came from. I think a really good starting point is just asking yourself, okay,
01:14:48
Speaker
what messages was I given when I was a child about sex, whether it's from your parents, from your school, from other people, and what messages would I want to give to my own children? And remembering that you can actually change the story for yourself and for your own children. And how you talk about sex with your own kids is going to be based on your values, what you want your family to believe about sex, which might look different family to family. So really reflecting on those values and deciding what you want to teach to your kids.
01:15:16
Speaker
And then second, I think for any postpartum parents listening to this, reminding yourself that A, if it's been so long and you still feel like you don't have a sex drive and it's not coming back to your doctor, like there are medical reasons why that can happen and you shouldn't have to feel like you're alone in that and that you're never going to get that sex drive back. And B, see if you can find those little sparks and give yourself a lot of grace and know that it's going to take some time.
01:15:39
Speaker
And instead of seeing it as losing yourself, I like to see it as rediscovering yourself and see if you can find yourself back slowly and surely.
01:15:52
Speaker
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. We are glad that you are here. If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review. Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all. A five star rating helps us share our podcasts and get these important messages out there. Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.