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Now in Paperback: Jackie MacMullan on the Fear of Failure, Writing that Teaches You, and the Final Chapter of ‘Best American Sports Writing’
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This originally aired as Episode 244 on February 26, 2021.
Jackie MacMullan is a long time sports writer for The Boston Globe, ESPN.com, and author of several best-selling books covering the NBA. She was the final guest editor of The Best American Sports Writing series.
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Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Podcast Review Offer
00:00:02
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Oh hey CNFers before we get started I'm bringing back the written review exchange for editing a piece of your work. I've only gotten like one or two people interested so I might just stop this soon. It doesn't seem like anyone interested. If you leave written review
00:00:24
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For the podcast on Apple Podcasts, I'll edit and coach up a piece of your work of up to 2,000 words. The whole thing. I'm not just going to like read it and be like, oh yeah, blah, blah, blah. Like I go in, man. Go deep, man. When your review publishes, send the screenshot to Creative Nonfiction Podcast at gmail.com and we'll start a dialogue. Also, this is for new reviews posting December 2023 and onward until I end this promotion, which might be soon.
00:00:52
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This is like a $100 value, so I would totally do it if I were you.
Promotions & Personal Favorites
00:00:56
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Also my requisite shout out to Athletic Brewing, you know my favorite non-alcoholic beer out there. If you visit athleticbrewing.com and use the promo code BRENDANO20 at checkout, you get a nice little discount. I don't get any money, I'm just a little brand ambassador.
00:01:10
Speaker
merely celebrating a great product. Skip the hangover, man. Skip it. Like I had a hangover the other day, and I wouldn't have had one if I just drank athletic instead of smashing Hot Valley pineapple stashes to my face.
Interview Insights: Crafting Stories
00:01:27
Speaker
When you've talked to 10 people and you think that's enough, talk to 10 more. And you may only use a little snippet of what they told you. It's often not even a quote,
00:01:38
Speaker
It's just a scene or a piece of information, just a little tidbit of something, and it's gonna make the story better. Honestly, it's almost as much work putting together a paperback podcast as it is for doing a new one. That said, stirring up the leaves of past pods is good for business, as it were. Not that the podcast makes any money, but he understands.
00:02:05
Speaker
I suspect that if and when I find the time, I could see a new episode dropping on Fridays and maybe a paperback pod dropping on, say, a Tuesday. You know that that way things stay fresh. And I the backlog is only going to get deeper. And how many people actually scroll all the way back?
Building Community & Engaging Content
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:25
Speaker
It's a good way to stir up the leaves, and I've gotten good feedback on the paperback pods. Alright, you know the deal, head to BrendanOmera.com for show notes and to sign up for the monthly Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. Or don't, it's up to you. I like to think it's a newsletter that doesn't overstay its welcome.
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It's a newsletter that will always be free. You're not going to get bombarded with multiple emails from me. You're not going to be pressured into getting a paid subscription from me. It's just going to do its thing. Book recommendations, a little essay from me, and a list of cool things that always goes up to 11. First of the month, no spam. As far as I can tell, you can't beat it.
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Also, just be sure to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts. It's not getting in the way of anything, is it? Or don't. It's totally up to you. I think I'm the only podcast host in the world who would so much just give you the option of saying no. That said, you totally subscribe.
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And we got a new Patreon member, I forgot to shout him out last week, doing it this week. So allow me to give that shout out to Dave Flaws. Thank you so much. By being a paid member, y'all are helping with operating costs, among other things. The podcast will always be free, but if you find a few bucks worth of value a month, visit patreon.com slash cnfpod.
00:03:45
Speaker
and check it out. It's kind of a little burgeoning hive of creative nonfiction writers there, and people talk amongst themselves. It's pretty cool.
00:03:59
Speaker
Might flirt with because there's no way to like tag each other and to be like if you really wanted to speak with someone in particular and I know some other creative types on patreon they have like discord channels, and I think stuff of that nature allows you to tag and Shout someone out and you can have your own conversations, and that's what I would like it to be like this little this little place this little cocoon
The Art of Storytelling in Writing
00:04:23
Speaker
and
00:04:23
Speaker
Okay, this episode is a thrill to speak with someone who I grew up reading and also digging into the rigor of being a columnist and how that can, I don't know, you can extrapolate that to book work or memoir or personal essay. I tell you, even if you're writing personal stuff, the better a reporter you are in your own life, the better your personal stories will be. Reporting and research, it just makes things pop.
00:04:49
Speaker
and it gets you out of your own head a bit, and I think as a reader of that, I like it when I can see the writer getting out of their own head for a bit. It's okay being in someone's head, but at times I like to know that you're thinking outside of your own head, and that stuff is pleasing for me to read. Anyway, personal taste. Okay, here's the legend herself, Jackie Mac Mullen.
Jackie Mac Mullen's Journalism Journey
00:05:28
Speaker
as a reader early on in your life. The Globe columnist Ray Fitzgerald was a big influence for you. When you were reading him, what was it about him that lit a fire and sparked with you? Well, I was just a kid, so I think it was his storytelling abilities. We had a rule in our house. You could read the sports pages, but you had to read the rest of the newspaper first. That was my dad's rule.
00:05:57
Speaker
So I learned a lot by doing that, learned a lot about the world and politics. And I got very interested in politics because of that. But I feel like I learned about writing from Ray Fitzgerald and reading him and just how he captured my imagination. And you would read something that he wrote and you felt like you were sitting right there. And as I got older and determined that I'd really like to be a writer myself, I thought, how can I do that? And I was fortunate enough
00:06:25
Speaker
to grow up in the New England area. After Ray Fitz, there was Lee Monfield, who, by the way, did the exact same thing, wrote about the human condition, wrote about the human personality. And he's a good, good friend. Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of meeting Ray Fitz. He passed away before I got a chance to meet him. But Monfield's one of my closest friends. And the way he could capture a scene and capture the pulse of what was happening, I thought, wow, how can I do this?
00:06:53
Speaker
I understand Catcher in the Rye was a formative book for you. Isn't it for everyone? It is for everyone because you're just identifying with this character. Because when we're young, we're also a little uncertain and a little eccentric and a little unsure of who we are. We're trying to form our own identity. My son, who is not in our business at all, and who actually honestly was a
00:07:18
Speaker
As a young guy, not much of a reader, now all of a sudden is becoming one. And he reread Catcher in the Rye and said, mom, you're right. That's a spectacular book. But I guess it took him till he was 24 to really stop and think about it. I think before that, it was just an assignment in school.
00:07:36
Speaker
Yeah, that was the first book I truly fell in love with. Holden just resonated with me and his irreverence and the way he could just needle at Stradladder and call him the secret slob. Stradladder just goes over his head because he's a meathead. I loved it. The best way for me not to read a book in high school is for you to assign it to me.
00:08:03
Speaker
Right. But that one, I devoured it. I'm like, oh, this is... It turned a certain light. I'm like, oh, you can do this with language. Well, that's it. And you know, my dad was someone that I admire greatly. He's 95, still alive. God bless him. Oh, that's great. All of my parents were big readers, but my dad, whatever he was reading after he was done, I would try to read it. And I remember one of the ones I read was Winds of War by Herman Wook. I think you say Wook. Is that how you pronounce Herman Wook? W-O-U-K. Anyway,
00:08:33
Speaker
That was probably not the best book to be reading when you were nine or 10. And I thought, you know, and then he, I think there was a book by Faulkner around our house and I tried to read that. I was like, whoa, I don't know what's going on here. So some of it was a little over my head as a kid.
00:08:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you grew up in Westwood. It must have been pretty darn special given where you grew up to eventually not only cut your teeth at the globe, but the thrive at the globe. Oh, it was. I still tell everybody. I still can't believe it happened. I was a student at the University of New Hampshire.
00:09:13
Speaker
And back then, UNH had a great relationship with the Globe, mostly because of Jack Driscoll, who was the executive editor of the Globe and had a great relationship with one of my professors whose name was... Don Murray was a professor of mine at UNH and had a great relationship with Jack Driscoll. So UNH had an automatic spot.
00:09:33
Speaker
with the Boston Globe every summer. So for me, it was not in sports, it was in the news side. But of course I wanted to be in sports. So I would do my shift with the news, but then I'd sort of hang around the sports department. And one of the other interns that summer was a gentleman named Ian Thompson, terrific writer, who worked with me at the Globe for a bunch of years, and then went on to the national, worked for the international Herald Tribune, worked for Sports Illustrated, just a gifted, gifted writer.
00:10:03
Speaker
it was so far ahead of me when we were both doing that at those internships and he was the sports intern. So that's how I got my foot in the door at the Globe and of course you weren't supposed to be a graduate to do that internship program but because I was playing basketball at the University of New Hampshire I wasn't able to do
00:10:22
Speaker
these internships during the school year because I had basketball and it covered both semesters. So I was a little behind on my internships. So what I did was I deferred my graduation so I could be eligible for the summer internship. That was another professor of mine, Andy Merton, who thought that up pretty smart. So of course, by halfway through the summer, everybody knew that I actually was graduating because I just never left there. My shift would be up and I would just stay for hours on end just in case something came up.
00:10:53
Speaker
I love that. I love that you brought up Andy Martin because that was a note I made in reading the introduction to Best American Sports Writing. I was wondering if maybe you could take us to that moment when you were a student at UNH studying under Martin and trying to find your voice as a writer. Right. Well, Andy was a great writer in his own right, but an excellent professor as well.
00:11:18
Speaker
I was taking a magazine writing course, so I was a senior by that point. And it was a challenging course because Andy, I think Andy's feeling was, all right, the training wheels are off. Now you're going to graduate soon. You're going to hopefully go work somewhere to write. You have to know how to do this. And I would write these features, and I would pass them in. And you know, read letters, send it back, teach me something. Every time, teach me something, I thought, what the heck?
00:11:47
Speaker
But after a while, I understood what he was saying. The whole point of writing a profile of someone or a feature or a story is you want the reader to finish and say, wow, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wouldn't that be great every time you wrote something that someone would put it down after it was done and said,
00:12:04
Speaker
Of course, now we're all online. But back in the day, for me, it was newspapers. You'd say, wow, I didn't know that. So I spent my entire senior year trying to get one time where Andy Merton said, yeah, you got it. And it was actually a story about a friend of mine who was an ROTC at University of New Hampshire. I think her name was Mary Brady. She was a wonderful young lady.
Gathering Details for Impactful Stories
00:12:27
Speaker
And she was going to jump out of an airplane. And she was terrified. And that's what I wrote about.
00:12:34
Speaker
And that's the one that finally got me to pass the test. Andy Merton finally gave me the thumbs up. Oh, that's great. Embedded in that, of course, to get to that moment where you might be teaching someone something that they didn't already know about someone who might be a fairly prominent figure. It's like what you've harped on in a lot of conversations you've had with other people is that you've got to spend a lot of time and you've got to make the extra phone call.
00:13:00
Speaker
That's right, and actually I'm in the middle of doing a piece on Trey Young right now, the Atlanta Hawks, a very successful young guard who just so talented, but I'm knee deep in this story. I've talked with high school friends, college teammates, old coaches, his parents, and I have learned so much about him, and I'm gonna talk to Trey this weekend. So I feel like now I'm armed and ready for him.
00:13:28
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. I love that kind of legwork of, you know, you talk to someone and you're like, well, can you give me maybe like three, maybe five more people to call? And then you just kind of start building a mosaic. And it's it's really the one of the more fun parts for me. I'm not crazy about cold calling and everything. But once I get going into the interview process and digging into people and really getting them to speak in terms of scenes and what things mean,
00:13:54
Speaker
It really is where the juice is for me. And I wonder maybe where is the juice for you? No, it's 100%. I always tell people when you've talked to 10 people and you think that's enough, talk to 10 more. And you may only use a little snippet of what they told you. It's often not even a quote. It's just a scene or a piece of information, just a little tidbit of something. And it's going to make the story better. The problem is that sometimes you interview all these people and you may interview them at length.
00:14:22
Speaker
And then when the story comes out, you've only used a little bit of what they told you. And sometimes people get bummed out by that. That's the only drawback. Right. Yeah. Cause sometimes they're like, you spent an hour with me, but you only use that one little, you distilled everything I told you into one sentence or something. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I was talking to Pete Croato who just published his first book from hang time to prime time about sort of the eighties MBA when David Stern was taking it to the next level.
00:14:49
Speaker
And he's very much like that of, you know, maybe you read an entire book, but it's and it takes a little labor to do that. But in that book, there might be just one little thing that you just you found that little you were panning for gold and you found that nugget. And it's just like, oh, that just made everything so much richer. There you go. That's it. And it doesn't always happen. Sometimes you do a story and you just bang your head against the wall and just never or someone you call, you can't wait to talk to because you think they're the ones are going to flush it out for you.
00:15:18
Speaker
It turns out that's not the case at all. And then some people that you maybe weren't even sure was worth calling, they turn out to be the one. You just never know. Right.
00:15:28
Speaker
Have you ever found over the course of making these dozens and dozens of calls sometimes that it can be easy to productively procrastinate by just saying, all right, I'll get to the writing, but I need to make another call? Oh, gosh, yes. I'm guilty of that. Ask my editors. They'll always say, are you done? I'm like, well, there's a few more people I need to call. And they're like, no, no, no. We need you to start writing. So guilty is charged on that.
00:15:53
Speaker
Right. I love that you wrote that exceptional writing transports us on journeys we never imagined, immersing us so thoroughly that we actually taste the dust. When you're reading something or when you're doing the reporting, how are you getting to that moment as a reporter to really put us there? We are smacking our lips because there's dirt in our mouths. Right.
00:16:23
Speaker
I used to be a little more subtle about it. Now, when I interview people, I just ask them so many questions. And I can tell sometimes, they'll tell me a story and I'll say, well, I want to go back to that story for a minute. Where were you? What were you wearing? And then I say to them, forgive me, I'm a details person. And then they tell me some more and I'll say, okay, thank you, but I've got to ask you some more. As I mentioned, I'm a crazy details person. And then they kind of laugh and they go along because details
00:16:51
Speaker
And I learned that from Susan Canavan, who was the editor of my book, When the Game Was Ours, the book that was about Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and their relationship. She was just a terrific book editor. She's the one that said to me, details, give me more details. And it was, I learned a lot from Susan.
00:17:08
Speaker
Those details are so telling and so beautifully illustrative of character. And watching some of the football games last weekend, I heard Drew Brees, when he was hurt, when he was on the sidelines, he was still licking his fingers like he was going to get in the huddle. Still playing. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the muscle memory. Even though he was hurt, he was just doing it instinctively. And it's just like, what a telling detail of an obsessive person.
00:17:36
Speaker
That's a great, that's a great detail. Did somebody write that or did you just hear him say it? I heard him say it. Like he just was like, you know, he was still so in it, even though he wasn't even suited up on the field, it was he was still like, okay, well, I'm getting ready for next play. I'm dropping down underneath, you know, ready, go. And he's still licking his fingers and he's on the sideline. It's crazy.
00:17:57
Speaker
I bet every writer that comes to your breeze is sorry they didn't get that themselves. No kidding, right? That's like the perfect little detail. It is. I also read that a big part of what motivated you, especially early on, and I suspect probably your entire career even to this day was a terror of failing. How has failing been a fuel that maybe burned clean for you and drove you to where you are today? Well, I was so
00:18:26
Speaker
felt inexperienced coming in because, as I had said earlier, I didn't have the occasion to do all the internships that most journalists did do when they were in college to get themselves ready for the experience. And when I got done with my internship at the Globe, I walked into Vince Doria's office. He was the sports editor at the Globe at the time.
00:18:46
Speaker
And I said, look, I'm young, I'm cheap, I'm a girl, give me a shot. And to my surprise, he actually did. And I just, I didn't feel I was prepared. I was looking at around at the people in the newsroom that I was working alongside. You're talking about Bob Ryan, Peter Gambitz, Will McDonough, you know, Lee Monfield, Dan Shaughnessy, Bob Duffy, Kevin Dupont. These people are legends in our business. So I just thought, I got a lot of work to do.
00:19:16
Speaker
So I remember the first, you know, I was not a beat writer for very long, but the year I did it, the Celtics practiced twice a day at the old Hellenic College and you'd go in the morning and all the journalists would go in the morning and you'd interview all the players. And that was fine, I did that. But when I left, you know, I got back and I was, you know, I didn't have a tape recorder back then. It's all longhand. I'm transcribing what I had. And I just had additional questions.
00:19:43
Speaker
And I thought, you know what? I should go back to that second practice. Suppose these other journalists go back to the second practice and something happens. Suppose Larry Bird breaks his leg and I got myself all worked up. So I went back to the second practice. I was the only one there. And Chris Ford, who was an assistant coach, was making fun of me. He's like, hey, Rook, you only come to the one practice. But I was allowed in back then. It was all different. And of course, now we never watch practice. You're not allowed in. This is the good old days. We're talking the 80s.
00:20:12
Speaker
And so the only person, other person in the gym was Jan Volk, the general manager of the team. So I was sitting there, you know, by myself, just watching practice. And I had an additional question I wanted to ask Larry Bird after practice. So I was sitting there and Jan Volk came over and sat down with me and we, you know, he started telling me about the team and talking with me and whatever, just the two of us in the gym. So the practice ended and they were all running off and Larry Bird was walking off and I stopped and I said, Larry, I'm, you know, I introduced myself.
00:20:41
Speaker
I'd been around him a bit. I hoped maybe he knew I was, but I wasn't sure. I had covered the team some before that, obviously. And I said, hey, I have a question. Do you mind? Do you have a second? Well, what had happened between the first practice and the second practice was Bird was unhappy about his contract. And he had arrived late to the team. And Jan Volk at one point said, I don't know where he is. Now, Larry didn't know that when he met the media in the morning.
00:21:09
Speaker
So he's like, oh, I was delayed, whatever, but I'm here now. I'm ready to go. Well, then he found out what Jan had said and he was furious. So here's this, I forget how old I was, 26, maybe 27 year old, you know, standing there asking him a question about, you know, I just want to make sure if you said this about why you were late and he went off.
Significant Scoops & Building Relationships
00:21:29
Speaker
Now I'm the only one there. And he just went off on Jan Volk or Jan Volk was a very wonderful man and a very good general manager and someone
00:21:36
Speaker
I consider a friend to this day. But he went off on him. Very unusual for this to happen, but it did. Well, now I got to drive home. No cell phones, of course, back then. And Jan Voll, thankfully, that night we were sitting together, had given me his phone number. So I had to go home and call Jan. And Jan picked up and said, didn't we just talk together for about two hours? I said, yes, but...
00:21:59
Speaker
I got to ask you about this. And I mean, it was a huge story. Now, the only reason I got it was because I was scared to death. That is the only reason. That and because I couldn't read my own handwriting. So there you go.
00:22:14
Speaker
I love that. Of course, these days it's hard. I think it's probably always been hard to build relationships, especially today, but I think it's always been a challenge. It's just different hurdles to get over. To have those conversations that
00:22:31
Speaker
don't end up in the paper, but they build a certain measure of trust. How hard is that, or how do you navigate that? You're building the trust, having those conversations, but still maintaining that critical distance that you will ultimately have to have to write. It was so much easier. I guess we'll call them the old days, in the 80s and the 90s, because the teams were flying commercially. We were flying commercially, often on their same flight.
00:23:00
Speaker
I mean, almost always you were on their flight, which meant the flight was delayed. You were in the airport with them. And so you could sit in the airport and talk with them a little bit about something. You know, you were usually staying at the same team hotel. So you'd go down and have breakfast in the morning. There was only one place to have breakfast. So chances are you'd run into one of the players having breakfast or whatever. Of course, none of that's true anymore because the team saw a flight, private charters, no journalists on, on the plane as it should be. I understand that. And, uh,
00:23:29
Speaker
They leave the night after the game. They often leave within two hours after the game is completed. The journalists, we often have to go out the next morning because we obviously don't have a private charter. And then the other big difference is
00:23:42
Speaker
when I was young in the eighties and even somewhat in the nineties, you could show up two hours early to practice and players would be coming in and players like Michael were in there already putting in time. A lot of the guys were Reggie Lewis, you know, those guys, they were putting in their time. It gave you a chance to maybe have a conversation with them. Practices were open and then post practices are open. So we just had a lot more opportunity to develop these relationships you're speaking of.
00:24:10
Speaker
but it's not impossible today. It's just, you just have to be a little smarter about it. What I, what I always remind everybody is, and of course with the pandemic, it's very different now because we're not, we have no access, but, but on a normal year when there is still access, I always tell everybody, you've got a locker room full of people and you've got 14 players and the 14th player knows everything that's going on with that team just as much as the first play. So the best player on the team,
00:24:36
Speaker
Yes, you have to keep track of him because everything he says is news, right? But if there was something you wanted to know about, if there was something that happened that you wanted more details about, the 14th player, even though he may never play, was still there. And so I always tell people, don't make the mistake of going into a locker room and focusing on the same four or five people all the time. One of the reasons I have such a great relationship with Rajam Rondo is his rookie year, when he wasn't playing,
00:25:07
Speaker
I used to talk to him all the time. I thought he was super interesting. He was different. He was frustrated because he wasn't playing. And oftentimes when I sat and talked with him, I didn't use any of it. It just enabled me to get to know him. And when he became Rondo of 2008 who helped the Celtics win a championship, I already had a relationship with him. So I think that's for young writers. Just remember, there's 14 guys in there. They're all part of the team. And just because they don't play,
00:25:37
Speaker
You should still be developing a relationship with them because they may never play, but someday they may be one of the stars. Reggie Lewis, another great example. Of course, I already knew Reggie from college. Exactly right. Yeah. You don't know who they might end up being when they become a star and then they're going to remember like, Oh yeah, I remember when Jackie, you know, took the time to talk to me for 15 minutes when the huddle was around, you know, Kevin Garnett and, or, you know, or whatever. And they, people remember these things because
00:26:03
Speaker
I mean, they feel, especially at such an elite level, they start to feel like just avatars, but they are people. So when you remember that, it's like, oh, yeah. And then people will remember that a few years later. It's like playing that long game with them. And, you know, you're going to be able to tell a beautiful story and spin a great yarn.
00:26:24
Speaker
Right. And, you know, sometimes like Ennis Cantor last year was not the most prominent player on the Celtics, but he was so fun to talk to. He loved the media. So everybody enjoyed him. That was easy. But some of these other guys who were quiet and, you know, a little more self, maybe, I don't know, controlled or what have you. And some of the best stars, they don't like to share much either. And so sometimes that's a long game. I think I spent three years getting Patrick Ewing,
00:26:52
Speaker
Actually, trust me. I think it honest to God took three years I would go into the Knicks locker room and It would be pregame because back then pregame was allowed and he would immediately see me. I go. No, no interviews I'm like, no, no, no I'm not here to talk to you and I'd go and I'd sit with Alan Houston or someone else and you know Shoot the breeze with them and I did that honest to God I think almost for three years before he finally when I walked in he'd smile and say hello We'd shoot the breeze, you know, and then finally after three years I said, hey, come on. Let let's do this and you know, it was one of my
00:27:23
Speaker
One of the ones that I appreciated the most because I know how private Patrick is and his story With as it relates to Boston is not an easy one He went through a lot here in Boston, you know people when he did not choose to go to Boston College people You know did horrible things held up signs at his games and Patrick can't read and just horrible racial things and you know He went through a lot and so I can understand why anyone from Boston made him a little nervous But I would count Patrick
00:27:51
Speaker
Among all the players I've ever covered is someone that I have a great relationship with to this day. And when you're, you know, developing these relationships too, and then you, you know, sort of spin off and, you know, say co-write books with, say, like Shaquille O'Neal or, you know, Larry and Magic, like, what is... That's a slippery slope. Very slippery. Yeah. How did you navigate that terrain? Well, it's not easy. And, you know, I was fortunate
00:28:21
Speaker
with the game with ours, with Larry and Irvin, they were retired. So I wasn't covering them anymore. Made a huge difference. Because it's difficult to do otherwise. And you know, I have probably, I mean, I don't think I wrote anything horrible about Larry. But you know, in the past, I had to write things that maybe were difficult. That was true with Shaq as well. In fact, Shaq mentioned it when we ended up doing the book we did together. It was his final season in Boston.
00:28:47
Speaker
And we didn't know that at the time he was planning on playing longer, but I don't know if you remember, he had a horrible Achilles injury that ended up having, he had to have major surgery on, you know, I kept saying to Shaq, like we're doing this book, but it has to be separate from.
00:29:01
Speaker
how I would talk about you or write about you as a member of the Celtics. And so what we decided was I just wasn't gonna cover the Celtics. It just made sense. And so I didn't. That year I really did not write about them and didn't write about Shaq at all because I was in a business relationship with him. It's tricky, very, very tricky.
00:29:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I imagine that's it's got to be tough because then once that sort of the the Partnership is over. Like how do you then go back to being the you know, the reporter who can be critical of in that in that way? Yeah, but it's interesting because you know, I've done a bunch of books now I guess and some of the people you can't it's difficult but some of the others I
00:29:48
Speaker
You know, like Gino Ariema, I did a book with Gino Ariema. I don't really cover women's basketball a lot, although I love it and I follow it closely. But we don't, I wouldn't say we have much of a relationship. I don't mean that in a bad way. The relationship didn't continue so much. You know, it did in the beginning afterwards, but then, you know, over time I'm covering the NBA. He's doing what he's doing. And so we kind of went on our way to some degree.
00:30:12
Speaker
So, you know, it doesn't always carry over, I guess. Ervin, you know, Ervin was great when we did the book. And, but, you know, he's used on a lot of projects since. And when I see him, it's fantastic. And, you know, he, I did an event with Ervin and Larry before the pandemic, probably about a year and a half ago. They did a private event and I was the MC, you know, and that was a lot of fun and he was thrilled to see me, but I don't talk to him regularly, you know, so it doesn't always turn out that way.
00:30:41
Speaker
There's the NBA writer Ben Cohen for Wall Street Journal. When I had him on the show and his book, The Hot Hand came out, he told me this great anecdote of catching Klay Thompson coming out of the locker room and walking to the bus, and it was about a 10-minute conversation. It ended up being one of his better
00:31:02
Speaker
pieces. And he, you know, got on a plane, you know, goes to, you know, Oakland, and only for this, he knew he'd probably have about a 10 minute window to catch him at this one particular moment. And when you were talking about just kind of beating the pavement, and trying to find the ways where you can actually catch them when other people can't, that reminded me of it. And it's like, okay, that's the hustle. That's like the 21st century hustle, right? Yeah, and it's difficult. You know, it's funny, you mentioned the Warriors, because
00:31:30
Speaker
They, for the most part, Clay, Steph, Draymond, they were pretty good. Durant, too, for that matter. And I did a story, was it last year? I think it was the year before. And it was all about closing out games and what your mindset is when you're trying to take the big shot, the last shot. And I wanted to get Curry and I wanted to get Durant. And they were in Washington, D.C.
00:31:56
Speaker
But there were just too many media there. So then they went to play Boston, and they were practicing at Harvard. And it was a Sunday. And so there were just a lot less media there that day. And I remember, because my husband was running, he was meeting me there. I forget where we were. We used to have been staying in the state every time. He was running to meet us. And so he came in and Kevin Durant's like, who's that? I go, that's my husband. So he's like, did he run here? I'm like, yeah. And so that, for whatever reason, was the icebreaker. And Durant gave me a great interview.
00:32:26
Speaker
That Curry interview at Harvard was the best interview of the whole story. And it was him talking about how when Kyrie hits that big shot in the finals, when it's Cleveland versus Golden State, that Curry's like, as much as I shouldn't have done this in my head, I'm like, I gotta come back, I gotta make this. And he took me through the blow by blow of what he was thinking and why he did what he did. And of course he missed it as people will probably remember. So that day was just the right atmosphere.
00:32:56
Speaker
It was a Sunday that they were done. They were at Harvard, not a place they normally are. They weren't in their home gym, so they could sneak off. You know what I mean? Sometimes you just got to get the right feel. Now, there are times I've flown to a city to interview someone, and I'm there for four days, and I don't get what I need. It happens. It happens all the time, actually.
00:33:18
Speaker
Who are some of the writers, you know, coming out maybe mid-career or even the ones coming up to mid-career that are, you're reading their work and you're like, oh, wow, this is some good stuff. And this is, this makes me optimistic about the future of, you know, sports and sports journalism. Oh, there's a lot out there.
Future of Sports Writing
00:33:39
Speaker
I mean, Kevin Arnvins, I guess, isn't super young, but I just think everything he writes is terrific. And, you know, I actually
00:33:47
Speaker
chose one of his stories for the best American sports writer. And he wrote a story about the King's executive, Jeff David, who stole just millions from the Sacramento Kings. It was just an incredible story. And so he's someone, you know, I see it. I like Ben Cohen mentioned Ben Cohen. I like I like reading Ben's stuff. There's a young guy, Logan Murdoch, who just went to the ringer who I think has a really good eye and has some really interesting thoughts and mixes music and and sports. And I mean, I could name a
00:34:17
Speaker
time I'll leave somebody out. But there's a lot of great writers out there. And speaking of best American sports writing, you know, when you were given, you know, the pile that has been curated by by Glenn, and that's in your lap, you know, what, you know, take us to that, that moment of having to, okay, you know, you're making the starting lineup and you know, you and you guys, you guys aren't so like, you know, what was that the calculus you were going through as you were reading those pieces?
00:34:44
Speaker
Well, the big thing everyone should know is when you get the stories, there's no byline. So you have no idea who wrote them. I don't know if people know that. So when I get the stack of the articles, I don't know which publication they're in, and I don't know who wrote them. Now, obviously, in the case of Kevin Artivits, because that story was so spectacular, that was one I had flagged. I mean, I knew a year ahead of time I was going to do this. So I flagged that story over the course of the year. So I knew exactly who wrote that story.
00:35:13
Speaker
Glenn loved it as much as I did. So that was a slam dunk, right? Another case of that was Elizabeth Merrill, another colleague of mine from ESPN, wrote this amazing story about Shelley Pennefeather, who was a great basketball player at Villanova and ended up becoming a cloistered nun. And how her mother would only come to see her once every 10 years. And she writes this incredibly poignant story about Shelley Pennefeather and the choices she made in her family and the fact that
00:35:40
Speaker
at this 10-year visit, her mom, who was, I think in her 70s or 80s, knew that this was probably the last time she might ever see her. And so that story, when I read it in real time, I'm like, well, this is amazing. And then there was another story on Venus Williams in the New York Times Magazine. And I didn't remember who the woman was that wrote it. It's Elizabeth Weil. I hope I'm saying her name properly, W-E-I-L. And I read that over the course of the year. And I thought, wow, that's a great story.
00:36:08
Speaker
So when I read that again without the byline or the name, I already was familiar with that. But in most cases, even if I had read them before, I wasn't exactly sure where I read it, who wrote them. So that made, I always makes my conscience feel a little easier, if you will. But I will tell you a quick story. So Bill Plasky from The LA Times, who I think is the greatest columnist in the country right now, just terrific. And he's a good friend of mine. We run around the horn together. I adore him.
00:36:37
Speaker
There was a story that he had submitted, or it had been chosen by Glenn. I knew it was his, and I loved it. It was great. But in the end, it's so hard. You're trying to pare it down to a certain amount. And Bill's story that I knew was Bill's story, even though his name wasn't on it. I just had read it before. It wasn't going to make the cut. And I was tearing myself up, because this is someone who's writing, I appreciate. It's not because I like the guy. It's because he's terrific. And I was feeling terrible about it. But you know what happened?
00:37:07
Speaker
When we finally picked the final, I forget how many stories it is, didn't you know there was a story by Bill Plaschke in it anyway? And I didn't know it was his. So that's how sometimes things work out. He wrote this incredible column about people with Alzheimer's getting together.
00:37:23
Speaker
and holding baseball mitts and just reliving some of their memories through baseball. I mean, it was such an incredible story. I should have known it was his, but I was so pleased. I was so pleased when I, you know, later found out. So the trick of it is that you don't know who's writing them or where they come from. And, you know, it was such an amazing collection and so, so difficult to pare it down. And, you know, I was trying, you know, a lot of the stories are tragic and you want to make sure you're not giving
00:37:53
Speaker
people just one story after the nets of tragedy. There has to be some upbeat stories. You know, you try to balance it in that way. At least I did. And, you know, sometimes there were stories that were writing about the same thing. And that was kind of interesting. So you had to, you know, let's say three people made the finals of, like, there were three stories about mountain climbing and, you know, the tragedy that can happen when you're, you know, climbing to the top of these world class mountains.
00:38:21
Speaker
And so then my charge became, and again, didn't know who any of them were. And in the end, I ended up picking Joshua Ham's story, chaos at the top of the world, which was in GQ. And it just, the other two are fantastic, but this just, you know, you had to pick, you couldn't have all three of them in, right? So that's, those are some of the things that I wrestled with.
00:38:43
Speaker
Would you say that when you were reading these, like your barometer, in a sense, took you back to what Andy Merton told you about, you know, Teach Me Something? Yeah, the problem was all of them taught me something because they were all terrific and they were all so well written. And the subject matter just would blow you away. Like one of the stories I just could not believe was it was called The Bicycle Thief.
00:39:09
Speaker
It was by Steven Leckert, and it was from Chicago Magazine. And I think we were worried that we couldn't include it because there might have been even some.
00:39:17
Speaker
you know, proprietary issues. But this story, like, you couldn't make this story up, what this guy did. He was stealing money from banks on a bicycle, but he wasn't the first bank he stole the money from. He threw the money away. I mean, it was just the craziest story. So the thing that I realized as I started going through these pieces was, you know, most of them were not
00:39:43
Speaker
profile of LeBron James or a story about Aaron Rodgers or a story about you know Gordie Howe or you know it wasn't like that I mean the the two stories that really just still haven't left me one was about a prison the Angola prison in Louisiana it was just the most brutal story and that was a story when you reference talking about tasting the dirt
00:40:08
Speaker
John Griswold wrote that and it was, oh my goodness, it was unbelievable. And it's about a prison rodeo and it just like haunting. And I still think about that story a lot because he really brought it to life and just the darkness of the whole thing. And then the other one was, it was about shooting a tiger. And it was by Brian Burrough, it was in Vanity Fair and it was about this village and this tiger who had been pushed out of its habitat by all the, you know, the development in its area.
00:40:38
Speaker
Had killed some people and so I'm reading this piece and I'm like, oh, yeah Well, they gotta kill they gotta kill this tiger and then I'm like, oh no No, they gotta save this tiger and I went through this piece and I changed my mind about five times About what should happen to this tiger? I mean if that's not good writing, I don't know what is
00:40:58
Speaker
That's very much like Orwell's shooting an elephant too, the echoes of that. What I've found of late, I think a lot of people, especially maybe younger reporters and writers who want to do this kind of thing, I think there's
00:41:17
Speaker
maybe a lack of rigor when it comes to reading and some people just don't know like how do you come up with a good story and the fact of the matter is it's like when you read a collection of this nature it starts tuning your intent at different frequencies and you realize okay oh these magazines are publishing this kind of story it's not just like the New Yorker or
00:41:35
Speaker
or outside magazine, there are these other little things, and you start like, okay, I can look there, I can look there, I gotta read these things, and then you're starting to see that there's stories everywhere. You just gotta be willing to pound the pavement, as I've heard you say. Yeah, and I think, too, sometimes you have a story and you think, well, this might be okay, and it turns out to be more magnificent than you could ever imagine, and sometimes you say, ah, I wanna do this story, and you know,
00:42:04
Speaker
It just turns out to be another story about another athlete and that's always disappointing when that happens. But when you can sink your teeth into something different and look at it differently and try to get inside the mind of he or she who are performing.
00:42:22
Speaker
One of the other stories, my goodness, was about a woman who was gonna end her life, because she had this terrible affliction that was, and it was, oh my gosh, takes your breath away. Now who would ever think about that? And I've never written about mountain climbers. I've never written about people who track tigers. I've never written about rodeos. I've never written about a significant amount of things that were in this collection.
00:42:50
Speaker
And you wrote to that exceptional reporters will continue to generate captivating stories and superb writing will live on. And I loved hearing you, Elle, reading that. And so for someone who's been doing this for so long and is still doing it at a high level and reading the amazing stuff that's coming out, coming up the pipeline, where does your optimism lie in terms of what we see, what we're hearing and what we're reading? Well, because
00:43:19
Speaker
You know, this collection proves it. There's just so many talented people who are curious. I wonder why that happened. I wonder what that's about. And the curiosity and combined with their own imagination will take you places that you would never consider. And those are the stories that most of us like to read. I mean, that is one of the remarkable things I think about this collection. Other than Venus Williams, I'm trying to think if there was anybody
00:43:49
Speaker
in this collection that people have heard of. Seriously, I'm going through it. Let me go through it right now. I mean, I don't think so. I mean, if you if you've heard of Shelly Pennefeather, God bless you. I've heard of her because I'm a college women's college basketball fan, but I'm going through this. I don't believe there was any, you know, major, you know, we were writing about grandmaster chess people, writing about people with Alzheimer's, writing about
00:44:18
Speaker
I mean, just go through an Olympian that didn't even come close to meddling. And that to me, I like that. I like that. It works for me. And what's encouraging about that, too, is those are the people you can get really good access to. Right. Oh, yes. That's the truth. That's the truth. I mean, the one thing, the big challenge for young people today is the truly 1% athletes in each sport, they've realized, well, I'm going to control my brand.
00:44:48
Speaker
and I'm going to market my own brand. I'm going to create my own production company. You're not going to be able to just talk to me anymore. Tom Brady is someone I think of, LeBron. Although LeBron still makes himself available, and Tom does too, on the regular media days. It's not like they are stiff-arming. You're not seeing as many long-form pieces about either of those guys because they
00:45:11
Speaker
Fairness, they're you know, they've got their own image. They've created their own image. They've created their own production companies They're you know, Tom we got Tom versus time we got the shop and you know Kevin Durant's got his own production company now He's got his own podcast. So it's gonna make Access to the really the top 1% even more difficult and yet I have this discussion with these guys all the time and
00:45:36
Speaker
as good as some of this stuff is. And I think LeBron and LeBron is the best at it. I mean, I think they've done just an amazing job. We could still tell their story better. I believe that I do. I really do. And with the, you know, with a few excited, I mean, Tom versus time, that was pretty interesting too. The last dance with Jordan, that was amazing. You know, those, those projects are incredible, but for the most part, pro athletes who want to control their own narrative,
00:46:02
Speaker
It's a mistake because I don't think it always plays out the way they want.
00:46:08
Speaker
Yeah, it was going to bring up the last dance, too, because Jordan, of course, his production company was involved in it. I'm not sure how heavily involved or how heavy handed the editorial content was through filtered through that. But it's one of those things where you got to read the credits at the end and be like, oh, as authentic as I felt that was like it still had he was still involved in it. And that creates a filter and a conflict of interest to the story that, you know, at least as a viewer, as a reader, you just have to be aware of.
00:46:38
Speaker
I guess so, but I think they covered a lot of the main issues when he wouldn't denounce Jesse Helms, the Republicans wear sneakers too. I feel like they hit on all the points that may be more controversial points. Certainly they hit on the wild rumors about Jordan stepping away from the NBA because of his gambling connections. They hit that pretty hard, actually.
00:47:02
Speaker
Yeah, and that's a credit to – I guess when you've been so far removed from it, maybe there's – I don't know. Maybe nothing to lose. Maybe that's the wrong way to say it, but at this point it's just like, oh, I've controlled the narrative for so long. Maybe it's time to put it in the hands of the true storytellers. Right. Yeah, I liked it. I mean, I covered Jordan during all those years. I know Jordan pretty well.
00:47:24
Speaker
You know, again, teach me something. I learned a lot. I learned a lot about that. And you know what? I forgot. You forget how insane the Bulls were. I mean, Dennis Rodman is like going to Vegas in the middle of a championship run. I mean, it's insane. Just crazy. I forgot about that. I lived it, but I forgot about it. No kidding. I know. It's amazing what the time dilation will do to these kind of things. Like when you're 20 years removed from it, you're like, oh my God, that happened?
00:47:53
Speaker
I loved the last dance, though. For me, it was just, you know, for me, a literal walk down memory lane. Yeah, I really enjoyed the insights from everybody. And I understand the frustration of Pippin and Robin and some of those other guys who felt like their story wasn't told completely. I think especially Pippin, you know, he got treated a little harshly in that. But but Jordan loves Pippin. So it's not like, you know, Jordan
00:48:21
Speaker
His truths are pretty unvarnished most of the time. Speaking of stories, we were talking about where people can find them. How do you go about curating a story idea and then keeping track of it and then pursuing it? It's just more difficult now. I try to talk to people a lot. I call people.
00:48:44
Speaker
GMs and coaches, especially now, it's more difficult now because my normal mode of operandists, if you would, would be, there's a game at the Boston Garden, the TD Garden. I show up three hours early.
00:48:57
Speaker
And the opposing team is always out there working out their players and the assistant coaches, some of whom are ex-players that I covered, whomever. You go there, you sit down, you start talking to them, you start just shooting the breeze, really. And that often leads to something that you didn't expect. I mean, that's how I ended up with this mental health series. Houston was in town, John Lucas, who I had covered for many, many years. He was a player, and then he was in charge of an addiction center, and then he was a coach.
00:49:25
Speaker
We started talking about something and I pointed to a player and said, what's going on with him? He said, ah, it's the same old story. It's mental health. It's this, it's that. And I said, so how big of a deal that he said, it's the biggest deal. I said, really? And we started talking about it. And that's what was the genesis of me. What ended up being a four part series. It took me almost a year to report and write. And I always make sure I thank John Lucas for that because he's the one that really opened my eyes to like, this is right in front of you. How come nobody's talking about this?
00:49:54
Speaker
And I love to, you said, I just love a good story. There's so many good ones. Every time I think about retiring, I'm like, ah, but I haven't done that one yet. There's always a good story, another story to tell. And so that being said, what are those stories you're looking to tell in this next phase of your career?
00:50:18
Speaker
Well, I don't know. That's the beauty of it. I might not have even met the story yet. I will say it's just really difficult to operate during this pandemic because you're talking to people over the phone or over Zoom. And I've always found the best way to get people to really talk to you and really open up to you is to sit with them and to have a conversation and to look at each other and to see someone's reaction. So I found this a little more challenging.
00:50:47
Speaker
I'm looking forward to the pandemic ending so that we can get back to business. And I hope, you know, the big fear all of us have, all the journalists have is that, you know, the players and the coaches and everyone have gotten used to this post game zoom, no access to the locker room, you know, what's going to happen when this ends and they've, everyone's assured us, no, no, no, we'll go back to the way it was. I just hope that that's true.
00:51:11
Speaker
And to have that in-person conversation where your hands are just like in your pockets and your notebooks in your back pocket, those kinds of things where we're just shooting the breeze here. That's right. Might lead to something down the road, but yeah, it's hard to do that without in-person because who knows what you're recording or you have to be much more forthcoming or forthright. Yeah, it's just different. It's different and everybody's facing it. It's not unique to me or to you. Everybody in the business has had to deal with it.
00:51:40
Speaker
And yet, great stuff coming out still. So that's what I go back to my faith and all the journalists and our brethren here.
00:51:52
Speaker
Of course, yeah, and no more illustrative than that than best American sports writing and what you were able to curate and put in front of us. And so we could enjoy that and be inspired by what's out there, what's being done, and what will still come down the line. So great, great work. And just it's always what a thrill, what a thrill to talk to you and talk shop, Jackie. I enjoy it, Brendan. And just so excited for everybody that was in this with what I hope is not the final
00:52:21
Speaker
you know, version of the best American sports training. But I was just in awe of everybody that made the book. And believe me, in awe of many who didn't. And you just wish you could put everybody in there. All right, that was cool. That was nice to revisit. That was great. I love Jackie Mack. Paperback bods don't get parting shots. It's just the way it is, man.
00:52:47
Speaker
So thanks for listening. See you in efforts and be sure to follow the show on Instagram and threads at creative nonfiction podcast and subscribe.
00:52:57
Speaker
Oh, that's the word, isn't it? Subscribe to the long-running Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. People have been bailing on it a bit, and that makes me sad. Also, visit patreon.com slash cnfpod and see if you want to further enrich your writing with the community we're building over there. Okay? Very nice. All right. Stay wild, CNFers, and if you can't do, interview. See ya.