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Episode 525: Mary Cain Started with Pure Anger in ‘This Is Not About Running’
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"I'm very comfortable not writing perfectly. I think a lot of writers have difficulty writing because they can be such good editors that there's almost this like, inherent need of sometimes rereading the same chapter over and over again and trying to make it perfect. And so I think, for me, I'm very comfortable with the idea of, like, let me just get stuff on paper," says Mary Cain, author of This is Not About Running: A Memoir.
It’s Mary Cain! She’s @runmarycain on Instagram and she serves on the board of The Army of Survivors and the founder of the nonprofit Atalanta NYC which employs professional female runners to serve as mentors to girls in underserved part so the city. For a certain subset of people they’re gonna be like, Who dat? To them, I say, Mary was a running prodigy in the 2010s, the fastest high school girl in America and one of the fastest across all ages before the age of 18 in events like the 800 meters and the 1,500. She was recruited by the now disgraced Alberto Salazar for the Nike Oregon Project where she was physically, emotionally, and psychologically abused by Salazar in a win-at-all-costs culture.
In 2019, she published a video op-ed with the New York Times that brought down the Nike Oregon Project and Alberto Salazar. It lit a fire and this book is also lighting a firestorm as well.
This was a really fun conversation. I was working in specialty running retail when Mary exploded onto the scene, so it was just really cool to chat with her. Part of the appeal for her coming on this show was to talk about the writing, which she’s not really going to experience on this book tour, which will primarily be on the running shows. She was very generous with her time and we talked for almost 90 minutes on topics like:
Her love of Hemingway
- Procrastination
- Writing in the present tense
- The benefits of reading when you’re writing
- Finishing as a skill
- Not writing perfectly
- Sticking to artificial deadlines
- Seasonality in writing
- Support networks
- Starting from pure anger
- The monetization of fake advocacy
- And the one sentence she wrote that I wish I wrote
Mary is a medical student now at STanford University and basically runs for fun. This episode will pair well with my conversations with Maggie Mertens, Christine Yu, Lauren Fleshman and Renee Hess.
I had a real blast talking to her and I think you’l enjoy as well. Parting shot on my marathon experience, but for now, here’s the super cool Mary Cain.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Pitch Club and Creative Non-Section Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
OACNFers, happy May, first of the month. You know what that means. Got a new issue of Pitch Club featuring Ruby McConnell in her story for Alta Journal. And if you want to see what winning pitches look like in here or read, how the writers thought through their pitches, hit up the club at welcome to pitchclub.substack.com.
00:00:23
Speaker
Pitches ranging from agent queries, feature stories, and off-the-cuff, unhinged essay pitches, and I'm looking into source pitches, and more. Forever free.
00:00:34
Speaker
You read a little, you listen a little, and you learn a lot. Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. Come, come, come. Memoir is an art form, but screw you! You know, that was another kind of piece of the puzzle.
00:00:53
Speaker
scene It's the Creative Non-Section Podcast, the show where I talk to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell. I'm Brendan Ryan O'Meara, the first. Okay, who do we have on this week's podcast?
00:01:05
Speaker
Well, we got two this week, didn't we? We had two podcasts this week. We had Atavist one, and now this one. It's Mary Kane.
Mary Kane's Journey: From Running Prodigy to Advocate
00:01:12
Speaker
She's at... Run Mary Kane on Instagram, and she serves on the board of the Army of Survivors, and she's the founder of the nonprofit Atalanta NYC, which employs professional female runners to serve as mentors to girls and underserved parts of the city.
00:01:30
Speaker
Now, for a certain subset of people, they're going to be like, who dat? To them, I say Mary was a running prodigy in the 2010s, the fastest high school girl in America and one of the fastest across all ages in the middle distances before the age of 18 in events like the 800 the 1500.
00:01:48
Speaker
She was recruited by the now disgraced Alberto Salazar for the Nike Oregon Project, where she was physically, emotionally, and psychologically abused by Salazar in a win-at-all-costs culture.
00:02:02
Speaker
yeah Many of Mary's teammates, including ah Jordan Hasse, a U of O alum, and Shalane Flanagan, who coaches at the U of O now, treated Mary with contempt. And Mary pulls no punches when it comes to how she feels about them and others.
00:02:16
Speaker
yeah Mary was also bullied quite a bit growing up. And my worry in reading the memoir as a piece of writing, as ah as a book, as a story, ah was a perhaps a score settling. As we know, like reading a lot of memoirs, when the narrator is the hero, they they definitely ring hollow you know as a work of art, as a book.
00:02:40
Speaker
And make no mistake, she was a minor and she was abused. But it was when the poison of the abuse made her turn on potential teammates that the book gained an extra level of altitude because she too became something of a villain. She became villainized yeah through that trauma, through that abuse, began to imbue other people with the same the sentiments and resentments that were imbued on her.
00:03:07
Speaker
The system broker. yeah It was something I desperately needed to see because the way the book is written in present tense, it absolves her from being, you know let's say, ruminative from afar to interpret the the events from a 15-year remove. And I worried about this because if you're going to eviscerate people, which she does, you have to be willing to eviscerate yourself.
00:03:28
Speaker
I would have liked to see more of that, but the fact that some of the feelings directed towards her were getting redirected at others was much needed in this book, and I'm glad she went there. ah So in 2019, she published a video op-ed for the New York Times that brought down, that helped bring down the Nike Oregon project and Alberto Salazar in particular. It lit a fire, and this book is also lighting a firestorm as well. I think Mary's ah coming forward in 2019 allowed someone like Kara Goucher to come out against Salazar with her own book, The Longest Run, I believe, the came out a couple years ago.
00:04:05
Speaker
Mary going out on that edge, you know speaking speaking her truth and speaking to that abuse ah helps reveal a lot of these systemic problems that we see, especially directed towards women athletes.
00:04:20
Speaker
Show notes to this episode more at BrendanAmero.com, hey, hey, where you can read blogs or learn more about our featured writers and sign up for the Pitch Club, Substack, or my monthly Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter, which I'm thinking of making increasingly personal, for lack of a better term.
Writing and Creativity: Mary Kane's Perspectives
00:04:35
Speaker
It's always been a little bit of that to some extent, but I'm not going to be afraid about going on the edge of discomfort. And if you want to support the show with some dollar bills and get access to the Flash 52 sessions and some other perks that come along with it, you can visit patreon.com slash cnfpod and put some dollar bills into the cnfpod coffers.
00:04:56
Speaker
So with Mary, this was a really fun conversation. I'm so glad we got to have this. I was working in specialty running retail when Mary exploded onto the scene, sort of in that early 2011, 12, 13 era. So it was just really cool to chat with her. Part of the appeal for coming on this show was to talk about the writing, which she's not really going to experience on this book tour, which will primarily be on running shows naturally. So I think when I reached out and on when I got this galley and was like, hey, I want to get in line for this, I think she was really excited to be able to talk about the craft of it the writing of because she's such a kind of ah a geek when it comes to reading and writing. So the I think it scratched a different kind of itch for this book in her book tour. She was very generous with her time. We talked for nearly 90 minutes on topics like Her Love of Hemingway, procrastination, writing in the present tense, the bennies of reading when you're writing,
00:05:51
Speaker
Finishing as a skill, not writing perfectly, sticking to artificial deadlines, seasonality in writing, supporting networks, supportive networks. Starting from pure anger, the monetization of fake advocacy, and the one sentence she wrote that I wish I wrote. Super, super jelly.
00:06:13
Speaker
Mary is a medical student now at Stanford University and basically runs for fun now. It's too bad because she was ah robbed of a special running career based on the abuse she suffered.
00:06:25
Speaker
and But she's parlayed you know that that experience into this book, and she's a brilliant person, and she's going to do so much good with her nonprofit work and certainly ah as ah as a doctor.
00:06:38
Speaker
This episode, if you're looking for what it'll pair well with, it'll be my conversations with Maggie Mertens, Christine Yu, and Lauren f Fleshman. Links to those will be in the show notes, as well as Renee Hess. I'll have all of those links in the show notes, as well as their episode titles. I had a real blast talking with Mary, and I think you're going to enjoy it as well. Parting shot of my marathon experience, but for now, here's a super cool Mary Kane riff.
00:07:10
Speaker
rip off of Scooby Doo, but it was great. so and Let's queer up hockey a little bit, you know, something. Be like, Mom, why don't I have the stigmata yet? And her mom be like, keep praying. Coffee is absolutely vital. but This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:07:34
Speaker
crazy things to juggle, you know, just like a major book launch and, you know, and debut book that's going to catch fire for sure. And, uh, and then, yeah, just with your, with your studies and everything, it doesn't get much more intense than that.
Balancing Life's Commitments: Mary Kane's Approach
00:07:47
Speaker
So it's just like, uh, yeah. How do you, how do you navigate that? You're used to high pressure, but this a different kind of pressure. Yeah, I mean, I think I've always been somebody who balances a lot of things. And I think part of it is i do a pretty good job just like choosing what I want to do. And so like there are definitely things where it's like I joke with my friends and loved ones that I'm like, there's probably certain things where I'm like, I should like right now I like need to buy a car. And it's been like on the to-do list for like three months. And I'm like, probably somebody else would have prioritized this, but because of school, because of all these other things, I'm just choosing to be lazy. No, I'm just choosing to like juggle all of the other things first. And so I think sometimes it definitely like absolutely is a lot, but I think I've just like carved out almost a lifestyle where like I am so comfortable working after 5 p.m.
00:08:41
Speaker
Like I'm used to making a lot of my Hobbies kind of also these things that are like pseudo professional, like even just like the training I do athletically, even though it's like totally for fun. i think most of my friends who follow me on Strava are like, this doesn't look very fun. um So like that's just that kind of lifestyle of kind of going hard with the things that you love. I'm just very used to.
00:09:03
Speaker
Nice. And I got to thinking that maybe a a really good on-ramp might be like getting a sense of what you're more proud of, getting into medical school or publishing your first book.
00:09:15
Speaker
Oh, wow. That's tough. That's tough. i think I think I'm going to say, i've i' have a i' have a weird answer, which maybe be like enters into my psyche a little too much, but I think I'm going to say med school. And I think part of it is because med school is still so separate from my running accomplishments it's not to say like things I did in aggregate and running didn't influence my application in a way that wasn't like oh wow she's somebody who like advocates for mental health and advocates for like you know the well-being of athletes like I'm sure that influenced my acceptance in some way but
00:09:56
Speaker
like mostly it was like my academics and all of these kind of like other pieces to my life in a way that as of right now with publishing it's still like kind of I hate to say this but I would have been able to sell a book even if I wasn't going to write a book and I think as a result the moment that I'm able to sell a book that's kind of like totally unrelated and like on its own merits outside of running I think then it actually probably would go above med school Yeah, because ah you write in the book that when you were a kid, you dreamt of being a writer. You saw that as your dream job. so So what was it about stories and writing that appealed to you from a young age?
00:10:34
Speaker
Yeah, since I was really young, my parents were like really big with pushing my sisters and I to read. um like We were the kids who like our favorite part of the summer sometimes was low-key going to the library to do the library book challenges. like That was kind of who we were. growing up. And so I think I just like came from a very literary family. um And I think when you're a big reader, it's such a natural jump in some ways to like, wonder how do i create this craft myself. And so from a pretty young age, I wrote quite a lot.
00:11:08
Speaker
Like i actually sold my manuscript with kind of like a sarcastic line of like I started writing books when I was five. And yes, they were just like shitty drawings and like two words, but I think it was, they were great ideas. Like it was rip off of Scooby-Doo, but it was great.
00:11:22
Speaker
um And so I think it was just always something that felt like an extension of playtime with my sisters because we were kind of all doing it. And also the way that we played games was was very like imaginary. There was like a lot of world building and character arcs and we could all probably borderline write like novels on like those games that we were playing. And so to me, It always just felt like kind of like this natural extension of childhood. And then as I got older, i think just gained more confidence in my writing.
00:11:54
Speaker
It was one of those things that was actually just truly a hobby for me, unlike my running that like was professionalized or academics that's like forever professionalized as a young person. um it was truly just this thing that I could like go and do and it just be my own.
00:12:10
Speaker
What were some very foundational books that ah they'll lit a fire in you and maybe even books to this day that you look back on with fondness and maybe even reread or so?
The Craft of Writing: Influences and Process
00:12:22
Speaker
Yeah. So I read a lot of the classics in middle school um and obviously not some of like the super dense ones because I was 12. But I read, i think, almost all of Hemingway when I was in middle school. And I have like since reread them. And it's so funny finding all the things where i'm like, I did not pick up on this. But he, for a long time, has been one of my favorite authors. And I think part of it is because even though he's not an Irish author, he's kind of a, he feels like an accessible Joyce to me, like like a Dubliner's version of Joyce, where so much is written between the lines, where it's not necessarily what's explicitly said on the page, but it's sometimes what you as a reader can understand is happening because you're so deep in someone's narrative. And I love that, like that style of writing, I just find so engaging and so immersive because you almost, you have to be paying attention. And I actually find it very hard to listen to those books as audio books because some, like I love audio books, but sometimes they're the things that I do while doing my dishes or like vacuuming or kind of walking around. But those books in which you almost feel like you're Sherlock Holmes and you're like, how do I have to like piece together the clues? I really love those.
00:13:34
Speaker
Yeah, I love audiobooks as well, but I i really ah need the physical text because I like to be quite literally in dialogue with it. Like I'm writing in books, I'm underlining things, I'm color coding it with different pencils be like, oh, that's a great turn of phrase. Or just writing little notes to myself. that are an essential little sort of a slice of my interpretation at a time. Then maybe if I reread it five years from now, I'll look at it like, oh, that's what you thought. Or like, oh, that's cool that that stuck out to you now. And that, but this other passage, since I've now like matured a few years, another thing is going to stick out that is every bit as important and maybe even more so. So like, I really like to engage with the text. yeah How do you engage with the text? Yeah, I'm the same way. I mean, right now I think,
00:14:18
Speaker
um just being in med school, like audiobooks has made reading so much more accessible. Like I think the year before I matriculated, I had read like 50 or more books that year. And then suddenly it was like six months into med school. i'm like, I've read two. Like, what do I do? um And so audiobooks have been helpful. But I similarly feel like the the two forms of literature I can almost read with audiobook is memoir. because I actually do find, even when it's not actually the author, there's something so, like, can, like, it almost feels like part of the art form in a way, and then um also some of like, the fluff fiction I read. I'm, like, I don't need to be highlighting, like, I can kind of zone out and do the dishes, um and I love, I love, like, all genres, so that's really fun for me, but I'm the same way. I think a lot of, like, denser books, it's difficult for me to, like,
00:15:10
Speaker
lock in because I really like being able to like truly zone out. And it's so interesting as an athlete, like I wear an aura ring and I'm someone who's very, it's very difficult for me to like actually relax during the day. Like I'm always kind of on, but reading is one of the few spaces where I actually can see like my heart rate legitimately drops. And I just find that to be so like beautiful. and And I'm like, oh, reading is healthy for me. I should do it more.
00:15:36
Speaker
ah ah Well, bringing that athlete mindset to reading and reading like a writer, like because I'm a sports writer by trade, so I often like devolve into sport metaphor. And I always consider it like going into the the film tape and the the study of like how you how you get better by like watching film over and over again. I imagine for you on the track, treat you're probably watching races to see other people's tendencies, your own tendencies and and so forth. So I love extending that to writing and reading and that, oh, here's a thing that I'm walking into. I want to get into its bones. Like the best craft book is often just a book you admire deeply and you just want to get into its bones. So like, what is the, when you're reading, what is the, the film study like for you?
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah. So I think at least for my memoir, it was kind of interesting because, and there were definitely certain books that I was like really influenced by, like, um, I'm glad my mom died was a book that I thought was just really well done. And I i had previously thought if I ever wrote a book, would be in the present tense. But I think seeing how someone did that, I found really captivating. But the thing I found kind of interesting, i think in my like writing and prep process was that i I didn't actually lean on that much nonfiction um or at least that much memoir specifically. within my kind of like writing influence. And I think part of it was just stylistically, i think many memoirs do composite writing.
00:17:13
Speaker
Like there's a tendency to kind of like clump chapters together and take stories from like many different times of their life and kind of combined it into a single chapter. and i like in aggregate didn't really want to do that. I wanted it to be very like, you're going through it with me. And so if anything, there was some more like fiction that I read, like um my year of rest and relaxation, which is like a super dark book, but that is such a like kind of isolated fictional exploratory story of like someone's head essentially is like how you think about it. I actually, in some ways found a little bit more helpful if I just needed like to read a chapter of something to kind of think about like tone and like how to get like more deep into something. So I definitely tried to explore a little bit in that like the the reading homework as I was writing so that it wasn't just kind of doing the same thing that everyone does in memoir.
00:18:14
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's cool to hear you say that because some people won't read anything that's kind of even tangentially related to their thing because they don't want that like voice creep coming in. that They don't sound like they're imitating something else. But I like in what you just referenced as, like I don't know, if a musician is a little stuck.
00:18:34
Speaker
they're going to pull down a record of that they're influenced by and just be like oh, let me get those riffs and those lyrics into my head. Oh, I can see how they're doing this. Maybe I can model what they're doing in my own voice through my own taste. You know, is that is that kind of the practice you're seeing too? You're just like, yeah, I'm going to take this slice that to kind of fire up your engines.
00:18:53
Speaker
Totally. And I think it's almost like, I think the musician example is such a good idea because it's like, it doesn't mean you're going to use the same lyrics or use the same chords or kind of, have it in any way the same, but sometimes it's fun to make it fun again. And I think, you know, the the musician example is great because I'm picturing people then like kind of just like singing along to a song and playing along to a song and just kind of like getting lost in it again and kind of getting out of their head. and I think to me, that's what sometimes can be really beneficial about reading while you're writing. And I think the example that I used where it's like, if you read that fiction, you'd be like, whoa, the tone of this is totally different. Like this is super dark. um I guess my memoir is also really dark now that I say that. So it's like, there's ways in which there's, there's like, um there definitely is an overlap that you'd be like, Oh, it makes sense that she picked that.
00:19:41
Speaker
But at the same time, i don't think that like tonally there would be kind of much overlap between the two. And so I think there's ways that if you are concerned about that creep, like if you're writing nonfiction, consider picking picking up a fiction or vice versa, or, You know, if stylistically something is told present tense and you're doing something past tense, like there's ways to kind of like really kind of make it so there's no way there can be overlap, but there can still be some influence.
00:20:10
Speaker
For sure. And or earlier in our conversation, you you brought up and you you having to buy a car and you've kind of like kicked that can down the road. I bring that up or i resurface that because in writing, procrastination is is real. Having a practice can help, but a lot of times we will we'll put ah put off a lot of the hard stuff, a lot of the writing for people.
00:20:30
Speaker
snacky things like social media or whatever, or sometimes life gets in the way. But but for you, Mary, like how do you handle you know procrastination as it pertains to your writing, but maybe in your life in general?
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a great question. i will say i i grew up in a family where like my sisters are like incredible writers and my kind of way to distinguish myself from a young age was like I was not the best writer. but I would finish. And that was a skill that was like, oh my gosh, like this gets celebrated too, even though she's like 10th of their writing capabilities.
00:21:11
Speaker
And so I think I like kind of made that my superpower with writing is that like i I get my work done and I don't get lost in the editing. And I think part of it is that I'm very comfortable not writing perfectly. Like I think a lot of writers sometimes have difficulty writing because they can be such good editors that there's almost this like inherent need, even if the the kind of like snacky of social media, sometimes it's just even like rereading the same chapter over and over again and trying to make it perfect. And so I think for me, I'm just very comfortable with the idea of like, let me just get stuff on paper. This might not look anything like the final draft is going to look, but I am going to have an easier time editing than I am just like blank page writing. So let me get it done. And I think for me, I'm pretty good at creating artificial deadlines for myself because I think it's not that I'm like so intrinsically motivated that like I would just do it with no end in sight. But I think like every day I can kind of have my calendar and be like, I'm going to write at least 10 pages today.
00:22:19
Speaker
Like that feels super bite-sized and doable. um And to some people, they might be like 10 pages is a lot. To others, they're like, that's nothing. But to me, it's like that can be something that if I add up over the course of 100 days, boom, that's so many pages. And so I think for me, that's sometimes how I do it is it's not necessarily... especially like being in med school, ever assuming that I'm going to like write a book in a day, but just being quite like the tortoise versus the hare with my writing style. And then it kind of makes it so it's harder to get distracted. Cause like, if you're like, I'm really only writing for an hour today, let me like celebrate that and enjoy that and like lean into it.
00:23:00
Speaker
it It's going to make it a little bit more doable. And then the days where it is actually more of a full-time job, Honestly, i do different things. Like I have my phone set where like after 15 minutes on Instagram, it'll be like, are you sure? Are you sure about this? You're really going to keep going?
00:23:16
Speaker
And honestly, I'm really, really good at keeping to that. But then this week has been just like, I'm on it way more. And I'm like, wow, this is so bad for your mental health. This is why it's set to 15 minutes. Yeah. No kidding. It's wild. like yeah In my own book promotion and then podcast promotion, it's like if you're away from it, it can be easier to stay away. But when you are posting, you're trying to get traction, trying to get attention, then you're always swooping back in and be like, all right, who you know like who's engaging with it? and You want to honor the people who are giving you a bit of their time. And then ah and I don't have the same problem as you. You have like a titanically larger platform, so you have a lot more to ah to consider. ah But it's still that, that, that whole dopamine feedback loop that is just like, it just keeps you going back like the rat to the cocaine. It's just, it's built into the system and it's like, okay, now this is actually taking me away from the thing I really need to be doing.
00:24:14
Speaker
A hundred percent. And I think with that sort of stuff too, it's like, there are ways in which like, I don't have TikTok. I don't have Twitter. I literally, this is so funny, but like my 15 minutes is spread between Instagram and LinkedIn, because there was a certain period of time where I felt like I was like getting the, I was instead scrolling LinkedIn, because I was so desperate, because I didn't have any other social media. So it's like, there are ways in which I think setting those little reminders can be helpful. But I think the other thing is, like, I set rules for myself where i almost never check my DMs.
00:24:47
Speaker
If I follow someone and they follow me, then like, I can see that. But even then, it'll be like, literally, my sister will send me something and like, three days later, I'm like, oh, I'm sorry.
00:24:59
Speaker
Hello. Now I have seen this. But I think there's ways in which like you can kind of just like build in rules. And like you said, it's easier when you're not like inertia. It's like a body at rest stays at rest the same way that like a body emotion stays at motion. So once you kind of set those boundaries for yourself, it's kind of much easier to keep to.
00:25:18
Speaker
Yeah. And you've alluded to it a little bit too about how like maybe you've got that one hour to write in a day or maybe a particular day you have like the whole day. You know, for a lot of people who have, who might be in intense school as you are right now or just have their own day jobs and everything, you know, how have you integrated a writing practice into your already hectic and busy schedule?
00:25:40
Speaker
Yeah. So I think I've always felt like a really important thing is to be comfortable with like seasons in your life because there are absolutely periods of time where I was like, I shouldn't be prioritizing this because I do have other things. And if I tried to like integrate writing too much, for example, I'm going to not enjoy it. And so it's not going to be good and it's going to be unproductive. And then during the times where I actually have more time
00:26:11
Speaker
I'm going to be like a little embittered because of that time I missed something I wanted to do kind of for it. So for example, like the first year of medical school, I made sure every single time I had a break, whether it was like Thanksgiving break or a long weekend or our winter holidays, I was going to be a full-time writer.
00:26:30
Speaker
And I was going to like really lock in during those periods. And then, you know, I would take a look kind of an aggregate of my like school schedule and I'd be like, okay, I know we're going to have exams X week, you know, the two weeks beforehand, I will, it would be like a win if I even touch anything writing wise. So maybe the two weeks before that, can period be the period of time I try to like build in an hour ah day, like that sort of thing. And so I think being able to kind of like sometimes play a little bit of that long game and kind of like look at your life and be like, okay, I have this deadline for work or I know I'm gonna, you know, be able to kind of have this long weekend here. Why not I like prioritize it for myself? I think that can be, that can be just very honest. And then it can mean that during the times that you actually get to do this really cool thing of writing,
00:27:21
Speaker
It's fun. And so you want to do it. And then the same thing we were just talking about, about distractions. You're not pulled to as much because it's not a chore. It's something you actually want to do. Yeah, that's a really great point to underscore or you're talking about is, you there are camps of people who are like, you got to write every day. And, you know, whether whether that's 10 minutes or 20 minutes or like an hour or two, like however. And I think a lot of people might get stymied or don't start because I don't have that hour a day. but maybe they have an hour a month or they have like an hour on a second Sunday of the month and an hour on the third Sunday of the month, whatever that might be. And if you, to your point, like you mark it on that calendar like as you might have vacation be like, Oh yeah, you can kind of honor that day and look forward to it. And maybe you're saving a little, a few scraps here and there from other, uh, just for a little bit of research and right, like, squirreling it away in my like chipmunk cheeks. And then on that day, you're like, you let it loose and you have a lot of fun with it. And you can yeah be energized by it instead of being like, oh, well, I couldn't write five days in a row. So I guess I'm my shitty writer and I'm not prioritizing it. Whereas it's just like, no, this is a way you can integrate it into your and your into your life in a meaningful way. Yeah. And I've always thought like, you know, as an athlete, there totally is like an idea of like, oh my God, you got to train every day, right? Like that's totally like an ethos that people think of. And now that I'm older, I'm like, no, actually like a rest day during the week is good. And I've always had it so that like, even at my most intense training ever, like there were periods of time where the training was
00:28:56
Speaker
super intense. And there were periods of time where it wasn't and it, and it can kind of like ebb and it can flow. And I think something like writing that is so creative, there's almost so many ways to be growing in a way that honestly with sport, sometimes it can feel a little bit more like, okay, if I like literally do nothing, maybe I'm not really getting anything out of it. But with like writing, it's like, if you literally don't write one day, but you read, but you do some research, like there's almost ways to kind of like be productive without it being specifically sitting down to write too. And I think that's something where like people should kind of approach themselves and their schedule with a kindness and not necessarily get into the like naive perspective of like, I read every day, so I'm writing every day.
00:29:43
Speaker
But like still kind of think a little bit about like in aggregate how all of this will add up and I also think for writing it is also like worth being said that like living also is a great way to hone your writing skills and like chatting with your friends and storytelling and other kind of art forms I think can be ways to like practice flexing that muscle and also like give you inspiration for it like stories to be told.
00:30:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think I heard the comedian Whitney Cummings several years ago say, like, ah you know, art can't imitate life unless you have a life. So you have to be interfacing with the world, with with your friends, with with strangers, too, because ah it's that is how yeah we accrue the experience on which we can interpret and then maybe you know novelize or... even have actual real life experiences that we can metabolize into a potentially, you know, moving story. So it's like, yeah, that's all part and parcel of what it means to be a writer and an artist in the world.
00:30:45
Speaker
Agreed. And, you know, i I can't be too sassy about sport. Like even there are days where I'm like, you know what? Like I walked to and from class. Like, no, is that like building up my endurance in certain ways? No, but it's not nothing. And it's something that I have to respect. Then when I consider, Like, oh, I'm more tired on my run or I'm a little sore today or insert whatever the thing is. i think sometimes we can be so focused on like a single output for measurement instead of looking at kind of like this whole breadth of work.
00:31:14
Speaker
Yeah. And how is how have you compared or how do you compare like running and writing? You know, how how do they compare to the to each to each other?
Mental Toughness: Parallels Between Sports and Writing
00:31:24
Speaker
And, in you know, in your opinion, I'm I think there is something to be said that you lose fitness a lot slower in writing. um You definitely can kind of have that like, I'm saving it till Thanksgiving and then just like run 40 marathons over the course of that week. um And I think I am someone who's pretty, i think I'm a pretty fast writer.
00:31:45
Speaker
Like I know even when I first like signed with my agent, I was like, okay, I'm going to write this book and I'm going to write it in like four months. And she was like, that's crazy She was like, no, you're not. And I was like, it's not going to be the final thing. like this They're going to need to like you know burn this whole thing down once I hand it in. I was like, but I'm going to have something to give them. She was like, okay. And then like, I did that. So like, I think there's things like that where like writing, I feel like there's no, there's no physical limit.
00:32:18
Speaker
Right. And there are like physical needs, like you should like eat and drink and like take breaks and be healthy. But like with running, there's kind of only so much I can do because it's just so physically hard. And so I think that is sometimes the thing that's really great about writing and really rewarding about it is that like, I can kind of sit down for a week and get a lot done in a way that like, you can't be like, okay, I'm going to train for a week.
00:32:45
Speaker
Let's see what happens. Yeah. How, ah how is the, the mental toughness of being a professional athlete prepared you for the mental toughness that it takes to really, to, to write something big, to write something long?
00:32:58
Speaker
Um, I think it really had, I'm very, very comfortable being uncomfortable with, Um, like even like med school, like we have eight hour, you know, national exams, like the MCAT and when I take step one, like they're really long. i think the hardest thing for me with those things is I just always need to pee and no amount of athletic training can ever prepare me for that. But, um, other than that silliness, I think for me, like all of these things do feed into each other. And I think, um, even like when I was recording my audio book, um,
00:33:30
Speaker
Like going into it, everyone's like, this is going to be the hardest thing you've ever done. Like, it's going to be so hard. You're going to read for like four days. And I was like, okay. And then it like really wasn't that bad.
00:33:41
Speaker
And I was like, oh, okay. okay Like, okay. um And I'm probably being really sassy. But I think there is something to be said that I think sometimes I recognize that like my like ability to just kind of like be uncomfortable is like probably very high. But I think there are ways that you can practice that and that you can, you know, you don't have to train in the way that I'm training. You don't have to be in medical school. um I, I like look back and I'm like, I was crazy and probably mentally unwell. So like take some of this with a grain of salt. But there was one time I had a stress fracture and I like could not train for like six weeks. I was on crutches.
00:34:19
Speaker
And so what I would do is like, I'd be like, okay, the first minute I'm in a shower is going to be really cold. Or I'm like always going to practice like, sometimes just like holding my breath for like 40 seconds and like do these like really little silly in retrospect, absolutely crazy challenges that if I was doing them today, I'd be like, wow, that's so cool of me. But looking back and doing that in 2017, I'm like, oh no, but someone now in the right state of mind, I'd be like, there's ways that you can kind of like practice resilience and you can practice endurance and you can practice staying calm under pressure. that truly take you a minute, that truly take you this like really short period of time. And I think can be really helpful in moments that are kind of hard to practice for, you know? And that's like true in things like well outside of like writing sport, like life can sometimes just be uncomfortable, but just practicing those little moments where you're like, my heart rate's going up, I'm starting to get uncomfortable, but I am forcing myself to just like stay calm in this cold water.
00:35:27
Speaker
I think can be actually like really empowering for people. And as writers, a lot of times yeah over the course of a writing project, uh, be it big or small, uh, we always encounter a lot of, a lot of doubt, a lot of self doubt, negative self talk. Often 2am voice is always waking me up during a, during a project. it's just like,
00:35:47
Speaker
You're not going be able to find these sources. Your sources are going to block you. You're not gonna be able to stick the landing, yada, yada, yada. So just for you, Mary, how do you, how have you dealt with the the doubt that is inherent to being a writer and writing a book?
00:36:00
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, number one, therapy. um Always number one for me. And then number two, um I think having your people who you can go to is really huge.
00:36:12
Speaker
Like for me, my mom was like a really important part of this process for me. because she lived through this memoir that I was writing. But there have been times where like, I have previously written like over a hundred thousand words for like a fiction story. And like, it's the sort of thing that like, it's totally unpublished, but like my whole family has read and like we've worked on together at different times. And like, even for things like that, which like, there's no compared to like sharing my like life story in a memoir, like my a hundred thousand fiction ain't that deep. But even with something like that, I could like turn to my family members and be like, oh my God, did this world system ever make sense?
00:36:55
Speaker
Does any of it, is this even English anymore? Like what is going on? And they could be the people who'd be like, no, like I feel really invested in this character. Like I love the way this is being built. I agree. Maybe you could like have edits here. So like that kind of like beta reader, that person who's kind of like sometimes like a little a part of the journey in their own way, I think can be something that's really valuable when you're having those doubts, especially if they're people who you trust and you respect, like in the art form, then there's even a higher likelihood that you're like, I don't think you're BSing me. I think you're really actually giving like helpful input. And obviously if it's something like journalism where there's more confidentiality involved and you can't necessarily give the details in the same degree, like having coworkers and or other people in the space who are similarly doing that. i think having those kind of like support systems are great because like given in things like medicine, we almost have that where there's like sometimes spaces for like almost like peer support. So like even if you can't necessarily like always go fully into the details of things, you can just like have that other person who also like handles this.
00:38:07
Speaker
I love the way you open the book. you like it's ah It's a sentence I wish I wrote. it's ah You write, Nike loves Steve Prefontaine because he's dead. And I was just coming right out the gate and saying that. was just like, god damn it. Because I don't know if you know, but I wrote a biography on Pre oh that that came out last year from Mariner Books called oh my gosh titled The Front Runner, The Life of Steve Prefontaine for the 50th anniversary of his death.
00:38:33
Speaker
And when when I read that sentence, I'm like, fuck, like ostensibly the book's about exploitation. And in the in the epilogue where I kind of say that Nike really leveraged, you know, his death for their own gain and their own altitude.
00:38:48
Speaker
But you come out and say it was such poignancy right out the gate. I'm like, fuck, I wish I wrote that sentence. But take us to that sentence because that sets us off on on a path.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So I, um that was one of those like crazy things where I wrote that whole preface at like, I mean, I go to bed early usually, but I was in bed and it was probably like 10 PM and I had been like lying in bed for an hour and I had like written it in my head and I was like, I have to get up. And I got up and I got like my notes out and I was literally just typing on my phone and i wrote what is almost exactly it. I think I like maybe like edited it a little bit. But it's crazy to look back and be like, wow, that notes is pretty freaking identical to the first chapter of my book.
00:39:34
Speaker
But I think for me, it was really important for me to have that in there because I think i write so much of the book from my point of view at the time, like it's a very present tense story. And so you almost never hear me today, like as an adult person, because even at the end, it is kind of me talking about like ways I think sport can be better. But it's still kind of from a like professional lens. you know like i'm I'm emotional. You feel that. But I felt like there needed to be space for just pure, raw anger and where is a better place than the start.
00:40:12
Speaker
Right. And the the present tense of it, too, is something we all pick up on right away. And what was the objective to going with a you know present tense for specifically for a memoir?
00:40:24
Speaker
Absolutely. So I have done like advocacy work over the last few years, like trying to end abuse at sport, essentially, and like create system change. And i think the thing that I find so just interesting, and it makes a lot of sense based on psychology, but I think often when people, you know, think about abuse and hear about abuse, it makes people so uncomfortable that they'd like to kind of like lean into different ideas like, a hindsight bias or kind of this victim shaming mentality. And even like with the best intentions, people so often like grab for those concepts. And i think what I've realized over the last like seven years is sometimes the best way to really kind of get people to actually be passionate is to hear firsthand stories. And I think firsthand stories always still are most powerful when you kind of remind people like I was 16, I was 17.
00:41:21
Speaker
I was not the person who's sitting in front of you today who's now being educated at Stanford in medicine, right? And I think like being able to like actually kind of remind yourself like what does it mean to be young?
00:41:34
Speaker
What does it mean to be groomed? What does it mean to be influenced? What does mean to be isolated? Like these are ideas that or just so often hard to talk about when you're no longer in it. And it's also so often easy to ignore if you kind of just want to believe that abuse is like one bad guy against one person, instead of seeing like, there were a lot of reasons that I kind of got trapped in the way that I was. And most of it was because of isolation in ways that like, I think unless you can really like see what my head was thinking,
00:42:11
Speaker
you can so easily dismiss it. And so to me, I wrote this book mostly to hopefully inspire people to keep fighting to change the system.
00:42:22
Speaker
And so with that being my kind of like why the best way I think to accomplish that is to have it be present in tense. One thing too, like i think a strategy for you that makes it very propulsive is these very short chapters. You know, you very well could have probably merged a bunch, but you know, you could have like 130 something chapters in the book. Some are like half a page long. So what was the, just the idea behind that creatively?
00:42:45
Speaker
I think there were a few different ideas. I think part of it was meant to be like very psychological um in so much as like in this story, I do really kind of lose my mind. And I think in some ways the tonal change that you do kind of notice in the chapter subtly is that early on, sometimes the chapters, like, there's, they can be, like, a little bit more fluid and a little bit longer. And then as they go, there sometimes is length to them, but they almost feel a little, like, more unstable. And so, like, I was trying to kind of capture that a little bit, like, stylistically. um But then the other reason was because as I was writing early on,
00:43:28
Speaker
And I think admittedly part of it is because like I've been in a lawsuit and I'm talking negatively about people who have always bullied me and treated me really horribly and been very cruel. i felt so much trepidation about the idea of kind of like compositing things because like these are the sort of people who even to this day will be like, this happened on a Tuesday, not on a Wednesday. And I'm like, well, if you...
00:43:55
Speaker
did the bad thing. i don't know if that really matters. But um I think like I understood the people who I was writing about. And I felt a little bit like, I think the more that I can keep this like really as like this is what I remember as possible, um I'm going to stand on my own two feet that much more. but I think, you know, i I bring that up partly because I do think that is a really sad piece of talking about abuse. And you see this in the news a lot. And it's why people are so scared to often talk so honestly, is that there is such a cultural normalization of people, you know, coming forward about abuse, telling their story, And then someone's like, you fucking liar that happened on a Tuesday, not a Wednesday. And then doesn't matter that like literally every single thing that they said is true and what they remember and what they feel, but like they are somehow minimized because of that. And they are somehow made to feel publicly like they did something wrong, even though like the abuse that they're talking about, nobody's challenging that. They're just literally challenging this like singular fact.
00:45:10
Speaker
And I think that's why so many people are very scared to ever say anything about abuse. And it's just because there is such a, just shutting people down that
Challenges of Storytelling: Survivor's Perspective
00:45:21
Speaker
happens. And I think that was like another reason that this was kind of part of the stylistic choice as well, where I was just like, I kind of want to show people that like, you can so tell your story in a way that like really, really is still very powerful. But if you're not super comfortable with the idea of kind of like merging scenes quite literally because people will come after you and be like, that's not how it happened. Memoir is an art form, but screw you. You know, that was another kind of piece of the puzzle.
00:45:48
Speaker
Yeah. Did you approach the writing of the book as a, as a means of settling scores? No, if I did, it wouldn't look like this. There are so many stories that even, um,
00:46:02
Speaker
that the angry part of me is like, Oh honey, you shouldn't be sending me an email right now because I never even said that story. But it was all it was all means to an end and the end is like advocacy, just honestly. And so i think and and I think that comes across because I think there are ways in which people are like, oh my gosh, she seems a little upset. Like, you know, sometimes in the way that I get interview questions, I'm like, oh, you say some things. And I'm like, yeah, because like that's life, like what? But I think if it was going to be like truly
00:46:37
Speaker
settling score, it it wouldn't, oh my God, like honestly, I don't know, the stories would have been very different. Because there are even there there are moments throughout throughout the book where yeah a lot of your teammates you know come across pretty unfavorably. You get a sense of how just inwardly competitive everyone is, even if you're not even running like in the same disciplines, like Shalane Flanagan, and Jordan Hazy. Is that how you sir say your last name or Hase? Yeah, Hase.
00:47:07
Speaker
I say, yeah, like, they they don't come across favorably in this book and your interactions with them. And, like, and the fact that you name them, like, oh, like, yeah, Mary's, like, coming out and saying, like, this yeah this stuff is real and this really happened. um So I just wanted to get a sense of – you know As you're writing that that, sometimes there is a tendency to maybe ah use pseudonyms or just not name people altogether. But like you go ahead and name people that didn't treat you favorably and come across as yeah not great in the book. So just what was the thinking around that?
00:47:40
Speaker
Yeah. So part of my thinking was that I did choose to use um pseudonyms for everyone who was a minor. And by extension, everyone who was connected to a minor. So all of my high school years, I do not name the individuals involved. And I think part of it is because I just feel like we often treat children so horribly in our society, as you can see from how I was treated. And I just do hold grace and space for the kids who bullied me.
00:48:13
Speaker
because I do understand that was mostly like a systems problem with like how their parents and how adults were behaving. And for them as children, I hope they're able to to like learn and grow and not become their parents. Right. And I like want to give them that space to do that. And I believe wholeheartedly that like children should be allowed to make mistakes.
00:48:34
Speaker
I don't think that way about their parents, but they're lucky I'm nice. I think though, for adults, there is a certain point where, One of my biggest issues with memoirs that I have read over the years is I'm like, who's the person who did that?
00:48:49
Speaker
Who the heck is the person who did that? Because if I knew who that person was, i can then in some capacity protect myself and in some capacity like be prepared if I was ever in that situation.
00:49:04
Speaker
And I think there there is a lot of courage in saying people did really bad things to you and and courage in saying sometimes people were just mean or like they were a bystander or it doesn't have to be the most extreme version of negative but like they still really let me down or they still hurt my feelings and my personal perspective on this is that I came out with like a New York Times piece in 2019 it's 2026 people had seven years if they wanted to reach out that they could have reached out and they didn't.
00:49:40
Speaker
And now they still have time if they want to reach out and be like, you know what, you're right. I was a bad teammate or shouldn't have said that, or shouldn't have done that. Like people still have the space to do that if they so choose.
00:49:53
Speaker
But I think the truth is, like, I was in a weird situation because, like, I was a minor during most of the events that I tell in this story. And now as an adult who is at an age that is younger than many of the, like, teammates that I had who I talk about,
00:50:13
Speaker
I just really am like, I would never treat a 17 year old like that. And I see the way in in which at least some of them are still kind of celebrated because either like they're a hashtag mom or hashtag women or hashtag you're blonde and like insert whatever the thing is. And I just don't, I don't believe things will ever change if we kind of aren't sometimes honest And I know kind of in the like at least early reader perspective, it has been really interesting having folks who are like in the media reach out and be like, yeah, this person has treated me really horribly, but nobody ever says that. And so I didn't like I never expected anyone ever to. But like, thank you for saying something.
00:51:00
Speaker
And I'm like, you're welcome, but you should say something too. Yeah. Well, I rewatched the 2019 op-ed video that that you produced that i you know kind of set this ah yeah lit a fire. Kara Goucher comes out with a book a few years ago, really, I think probably stemmed in large part because of your courage in 2019.
00:51:23
Speaker
but it like i as I went down and you you know they embedded like tweets from various people I saw like you know you know Shalane's tweet about like saying that yeah she should have maybe had your back and all that stuff and I wonder like does that ring hollow to you here at this at this point yeah and I think I even mentioned yeah I think I even mentioned that specifically in the book which is like she had always been somebody who was just unkind to me growing up.
Critique of Social Media Activism and Sports Dynamics
00:51:49
Speaker
And when she tweeted that, I was really like, again, i I'm all for people change, people grow.
00:51:57
Speaker
like i'm like i believe in that very strongly. And so I was like, wow, that's you know like I don't know what she was going through during that time she was unkind to me maybe this is a sign that she's like now in a different space and so I had asked my editor Lindsay Krauss who knew her to connect us and she was like oh she she's not interested and I was like oh so she's interested in in attention She's not interested in, you know, me.
00:52:28
Speaker
And I think that is something that you see a lot in sport right now. And I do think in particular within women's sport where there is this kind of monetization off of fake advocacy of kind of this like, I'm going to step in during this big moment. I'm going to say the tweet, but there's not actually any sort of action behind it. And I don't believe that that behavior should continue.
00:52:56
Speaker
Because I do believe we should be supporting the people who are actually doing like on the ground work to make women's sport and sport in general better and safer and all of those things. And I think doing this kind of fake advocacy that we've been seeing over the last five to 10 years takes resources away from people who are actually like creating change.
00:53:16
Speaker
But I also just think there's a certain point where it's like, I've just never been somebody who's okay with this like two-handedness and for a very long time I've been quiet about it and there's so many people who I do not name who did that to me in running so it's not a I have like three friends in running to like you know be probably like a little dramatic but not that dramatic um at least from like the time that I was actually like competing and I think that really says a lot about how kind of fake the social media world is and how we then set young people up
00:53:51
Speaker
to essentially enter these worlds thinking, oh my God, you're all best friends. I'm going to have all these friends. And then like, actually everyone bullies you and you're like, geez Louise, i didn't, I didn't expect that.
00:54:04
Speaker
Yeah. Well, yeah late in the book, might be the last one or two pages, you're like, feminism is not about getting yourself paid. Abuse advocacy is not about protecting yourself. These issues are beyond any singular person. But there is this fascinating trend in sports to call paid jobs, giving back. In a podcast interview, one of my old teammates talked about how our new coaching job is giving back. I'm sorry, that's not how this works.
00:54:27
Speaker
That's kind of what you're echoing. Yes. I feel that so strongly. And if my mom was here, she'd be like, yes, yes those interviews drive me crazy. And I'd be remiss if we didn't ah obviously talk about one of the central figures who's very key to your, your story is, you know Salazar. And, know, he kind of knocks on your door when you're basically a teenager and he's, a at a time when he was something of like a demigod. And like, if you got a knock on the door from Salazar, it's like, holy shit, like this is something. So maybe just paint a picture of the allure of what he stood for when ah you first earned his attention.
00:55:07
Speaker
Yeah, so he reached out to me in September of 2012, and that summer, so like July, August, um Galen won a silver medal at the Olympics in the 10K, and it was the first like Olympic distance running medal from the U.S. in a while. Ironically, I think Shalane had been the last one. And he, meaning Alberto, was really like the future of um American distance running like glory. And he was also the president of it. Cause he also had Matthew Centruits as an athlete who was finished fourth in the 1500. And of course he also coached Mo to two golds. um So Alberto Salazar was like, I mean, to say he was like the biggest coaching name in running would be such an understatement because I don't know if I could have named anyone else at the time. And I was like actually a fan running. So like that in and of itself is just like such a, you know, like there wasn't even, this isn't even like the NFL or insert other sports where you're like, but there's also this other guy. I'm like, he was like it full stop.
00:56:13
Speaker
And the idea of having him reach out to ah high school kid. And yes, I was like the number one kid in the country, but like, that was still such an insane foreign jump that like truly my wildest dreams were coming true. And so it was,
00:56:33
Speaker
you know, this crazy, crazy situation. And it's been funny in the years after because sometimes people have kind of like insinuated, I reached out to him and I'm like, Nope, he left that voicemail on our, on our phone.
00:56:47
Speaker
And I was at a really vulnerable time when he reached out, like I was about to leave running. Um, cause I was, ah just felt really unsafe in track and field just because of like how parents of my teammates were treating me and just how viciously I'd been bullied for years.
00:57:03
Speaker
And so it's crazy. Like I had, I was going to send emails to all these coaches in the NCAA being like, hi, I'm the national record holder. um i think I'm going to swim the next two years. Please recruit me. um And they probably would have all been like, what? But instead, the greatest coach in the world wanted me. So it felt like a Disney Channel movie.
00:57:23
Speaker
Yeah. And so obviously there's that honeymoon period of like, oh, my God, I've been chosen ah by this guy. And then that that in and and of itself starts to begin the process of, you know, if there's any friction like you would come across as like ungrateful. Don't you know how many other yeah people I could choose over Yes. And that sets the table for verbal and physical and emotional abuse. So when does the foundation start to crack in that, in the relationship, but also then within you?
00:57:57
Speaker
Yeah. it's It's so funny because there's kind of two different answers. Like the version of me today sitting here is like after my first ever phone call with Alberto, he sent me Karagoucher's gloves. And I now understand that he had sexually assaulted Karagoucher. And so today in 2026, I'm like, I think that relationship was like, I don't, I think it was cracked from the beginning. yeah um But at the time, i think in many ways, and honestly, even up until 2021, when I had learned of Kara's experience, I think I often kind of like broke it into two different periods where it was like the junior and senior year of high school when things were quote unquote good. which there were totally like, he came into my room at night during that time.
00:58:43
Speaker
There are a lot of very traumatic incidents that happened that I don't write about in the book. There were really, really dark things that happened during that period. But in my mind as a kid, i was like, we're doing great.
00:58:57
Speaker
And then I moved out to Portland when I was like a freshman in college. And that was when, yes, his actions were, like got more angry towards me. Like he was yelling at me. There was more like direct negativity at me. And so as a result, I was internalizing it more, but it's just, I only share that because I do think there is this interesting, maybe falsehood that I have probably in some ways perpetuated that things changed and therefore got bad. And I think there's truth to that. Like, I think there was behavioral change from him. But there was always there was always stuff happening. I think there was just a period of time where for whatever reason, he directed less anger towards me.
00:59:46
Speaker
Yeah. And the when he's like sitting by your bed when you're sleeping and like in one particular instance, you're half naked and he's just like kind of leering over you saying he's adjusting your you know barometric pressure thing. And the way you write it, it's as if you felt bad.
01:00:05
Speaker
like I don't want to face him like this, but it was like he had the direct violation and trespass of your space and privacy. And like the way things were engineered back then, it made you feel like you were letting him down. and I was just like, oh my God, like this is this is the system and the culture that has been created, you know writ small in that very traumatic interaction, if you want to call that. 100%. i I think part of the reason I wrote about it in that way is that is why abuse is so...
01:00:36
Speaker
normalized is because we do almost train people when they are being abused to be like, I am so sorry, abuser, that I am bad.
01:00:47
Speaker
And I am sorry that you have to do this. Like that is almost how we are trained to respond to abuse. And so the way I wrote about that scene is exactly how I felt every time it happened, which is I was like, oh my God, I i am, I feel so like, I'm so sorry for him.
01:01:04
Speaker
And now I look back and I'm like, an adult man was walking into a young girl's, like I was i was a minor during that time, um room while she was sleeping. And at least one time I was physically exposed. And the idea that I could have ever thought that was like my fault is so horrifying to me. And it's part of the reason I do a lot of this work. And it's because I recognize that's probably so many people in these situations.
01:01:33
Speaker
Yeah. And one of the turns that I like that that you approach in the book is like, you know, throughout the first, you know, a good chunk of it, it's, you know you're showing how you're bullying and victimized and you illustrate through your own actions with, ah say, ah Anna Al Minova and then this other, another runner that's not named, but Alberno doesn't want her because, you know, she's fat, but you're kind of like happy that he doesn't want her. And because she's fat and then you think like, OK, then that means I'm not fat and I can get skinnier and I'm still chosen. and it And it just illustrates so perfectly how the machine worked its way into your mind. like it It fundamentally changed how you were seeing other women in the same way that some other women were looking at you when you came in. and it was like, oh, here's the turn of the the system affecting you.
01:02:27
Speaker
Yes. I have always said, ah you know, I think one of the things that I remember, I've had this conversation with my mom, but the sports psych who is in a sports psych used to work with kids at the University of Oregon.
01:02:42
Speaker
And he has worked at like USC. He's worked at a few universities as like a sports psychologist, to my understanding, because any athlete who have I've ever talked to who worked with him thought he was one as well.
01:02:55
Speaker
um So he was working with these college kids and then he was coming back and telling me what they were telling him, right? Like he was totally breaking all of their privacy. And at least one of the kids I will always remember, even in the moment, I felt such guilt being happy that he was implying she was fatter than me.
01:03:16
Speaker
like Like I felt guilty that I felt happy and yet all I could feel was relief. Like all I could feel was like, thank God. Okay.
01:03:27
Speaker
Like I'm not the worst it could be. And I just find that is part of the reason that like, even in the people who I talk about, like I recognize there were times in my life where like I had those thoughts. Did I then take action and be mean to people? I don't really think so. But I do feel for a lot of these folks, like you're in this messed up system and it's going to change you. It's going to eat away at you. I mean, I think had I been somebody who in some way survived it because i don't know, like I was willing to do drugs or like whatever the heck that whole thing was.
01:04:01
Speaker
i don't know what I'd be the person that I am today. And I hope some of these people can kind of like, kind of realize that and maybe consider how they can heal themselves and like maybe unwire those thoughts where they see a 17 year old girl walk onto a track and they're like, thank God she's being bullied for being fat. Cause at least it's not me. And realize like, hey, maybe that's not good. Maybe that's not healthy. Because you turned pro at a young age, I wanted to get a sense of, you know, what a ah what a contract look like, you know, for for you. And also you also write about like hot girl contract. and So ah just a take us to what a contract typically looks like. But then, of you know, the the hot girl contract.
01:04:43
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I i think the hot girl contract was something that was almost like the hardest part for me to write. And part of it is because I'm very cognizant, kind of as we've been discussing, that you can be a victim of a system and perpetuate abuse onto others, right? Like you can be both. And I have a lot of like kind of sympathy for people who are in that position.
01:05:13
Speaker
But I think there are ways in which sometimes those folks can be like the biggest champions of like maintaining the status quo because maybe they're in some sort of power despite still being kind of like taken advantage of. And so I knew writing anything that kind of addressed this concept that sometimes women are paid not because of their performance, but because, you know, essentially men in a sports marketing room want them to be around or like want them to post in a certain way or insert whatever the thing would be a potentially controversial topic. But, you know, I honestly, at this point, I'm kind of used to being like kind of polarizing, but um it like, and honestly, can sometimes be uncomfortable. But I think it's a really interesting dynamic because it's one of those areas where you don't, you don't see this for like male counterparts. And I think from a contractual perspective, I don't think to my knowledge that most of their contracts are any different. I don't think there is this like you are an influencer instead of an athlete, like dichotomy between people.
01:06:20
Speaker
I'd be really curious to see if like as athletes, we sometimes have like give to go to 10 events or like insert, you know, the kind of like marketing requirements. And I would be curious if you actually sat down, is there a difference between the two of them for like different events?
01:06:35
Speaker
theoretical types of contracts. But I felt it was one of those like concepts that women in sports talked actually about a lot and yet was never really publicly acknowledged or this idea that like sports marketing departments are not, you know, they're built in a way that they'll be like, it's just business. It's just business. and It's like three dudes.
01:06:59
Speaker
But then they're like making all of these decisions that based on the business model that they're telling you that they follow or that it's all performance oriented, that's not what they're following. And listen, if they want to come out and be like, yeah, you got us.
01:07:14
Speaker
We think it's better for business in ways that like, it's not just about performance, like acknowledging that I think would be important because the way it stood, I'd be standing there being like, you're acting like you're about to cut me because I'm eight, but you're, you've been paying that 12th girl for 20 years.
01:07:32
Speaker
And they've never performed as well as I have. And you're telling me I'm somehow letdown. i think you're really telling me you don't think I'm hot. And that's such a crazy thought to be having at like 1920. Right.
01:07:47
Speaker
Yeah, and ah you came ah up as a runner, you started making headlines yeah at such a young age, but really right when the internet is starting to do a lot of forums and all that, and your Coach Mitchell that you write about in and the book too, who is like very sensitive about you know his own treatment in these forums, but like when people were kind of bullying you online, he just laughed. which is just like cool, it's really setting the stage for everything that's to come for you. um But yeah just take us to that. And like, you came up right at the start of that. So how did you start to, you know, handle that time and metabolize that?
01:08:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think when I was really young, and people were writing about me online, um I just very, very early created like a I don't, I don't read about myself online rule. Like I can't go on these forums. I can't do these things. And there's ways in which it's like, that's awesome. That is so healthy. But there's other ways in which it's kind of sad because there was this whole community of running that I have never been a part of because i was not safe to be a part of it. Because if I entered those rooms where like people were talking about results or people were talking about like how somebody ran results, in the like not toxic ways, it risked me having exposure to like toxic stuff. So I even talk about how just like very generic, basic, like post-race interviews that got to a point where I couldn't even watch those anymore. I couldn't even look up results because everyone wanted to talk about me.
01:09:24
Speaker
And it was so often in ways that even if it wasn't like directly like, oh, she's ugly or, oh, she's this, at minimum it would be like a competitor being so passive aggressive about like losing to me in a race and me being like, wow, you guys are never this passive aggressive with each other. Like this, like you're borderline aggressive in this interview.
01:09:46
Speaker
And so I think there was something to be said that like the main way that I handled it was just trying to avoid it. um And that's still true. Like I still am quite um protective of myself and that like, you know, i' I'm really going to not like ever look at the Goodreads. The one funny thing that was I, I have it in my like, want to read list, because you know, why not? And there was at least one time I was like scrolling through my Goodreads want to read list because I was trying to find something.
01:10:14
Speaker
And like it popped up so I could see my like review, like average and i was like we're still scrolling we're still scrolling we're just gonna ignore that we're not gonna look at that again I accidentally saw my front runner Amazon ah total ratings and everything for the first time a year book came out a year ago and I haven't looked at a thing and I saw it by accident because I was looking up another book I running book that's coming out later by Nike guy Chris Bennett this is about running this is not about running look at that um so yeah that was some drama yeah
01:10:49
Speaker
And I was just like, hold on. This is part of Mary's title too, isn't it? And i yeah, I am. are you Can you talk about that? mean, I can't. Nobody told me I can't. um I like came out with my book. Like I announced it in September. And then I was told afterwards that he was like really upset and maybe thought that I had done that purposefully to spite Nike.
01:11:15
Speaker
And I was like, how would that spite Nike and then it turns out like maybe he says that I had no idea like this was like completely me like I was actually my agent who was like oh you wrote about this in your proposal like let's use this but I've thought in the aftermath of it that it's just so odd to me because I think if I was in that position i would just be like if she wants to be spiteful towards Nike like power to her you know, like that would be my perspective.
01:11:48
Speaker
And I also probably wouldn't then spitefully keep the same name because like my book is a book about like child abuse, but that's maybe just my opinion on things. yeah um And i do think is this fascinating dynamic that you so often see in running where you are kind of like,
01:12:12
Speaker
why is there ever an assumption that like a woman's being spiteful? And you know what? Also, like if anyone can be like pop off, if it's me. I don't know. That's my perspective. Yeah. When you write about jealousy to midway through the book and that's something I always love pulling on, on the show anyway, a bit, yeah you know, you, it's a real emotion. You know a lot of people see like, you know, you see it in the book world of like how they get that appearance, how they appear on that podcast or that radio show or, That publishing deal, they got that much for their book in advance. um yeah But you know, you're right that jealousy is a normal emotion. We all feel jealous, but an emotionally healthy person understands that jealousy shouldn't be directed towards other people.
01:12:51
Speaker
If I feel an emotion brewing, like I really want an accomplishment or a prize or a score, I don't direct to any negativity at people who already have those things. They haven't taken anything from me. So I just direct my thoughts toward how I can work toward gaining that thing that set off my jealousy in the first place. And then you're like, most runners only like you if you're slower than them, which I which is ah i imagine like that's the delineation point. You get faster than them and suddenly you're like, oh, And I think it's it's interesting to me because um I've always had this perspective on jealousy. And there was obviously a period of time where I was like unwell and got way too
01:13:30
Speaker
like in the weeds, but even during it, I like fought against it internally because I just feel like even in the situations where you're like, dang it, this person's like a Nepo baby or this person like is... you know, getting paid to write something that's like not helping anyone, but they're getting attention and because people are more comfortable with the idea of like celebrating fluff versus like something hard. Like whatever whatever the thing is that bothers you, even in those moments, I'm still like, but thoughts that's not like their fault.
01:14:07
Speaker
Right. Like that's not, you know, like at the end of the day, like if you're the Nepo baby, yeah, that's kind of annoying, but like good for you. I guess at least you're trying to like work and be in this industry or insert whatever the thing is. So for me, I have just always tried to kind of channel things in a way where I'm like, you know, even in advance of this book launch, like I would love for certain outcomes to happen. I think they would be so fun, but I have a very healthy perspective that like i could do everything.
01:14:36
Speaker
I could write an incredible book. And it doesn't mean any of those things are going to happen. Like this world is so fickle. It's not going to be a sign that like I didn't do something good or I should have tried harder or anything like that. And I think that's one of the beauties to me actually about sport is that one of the lessons I think you do learn from it that's very hard to learn is that you can work incredibly hard and it doesn't mean you're always going to win.
01:15:02
Speaker
right And yes, sometimes it's because someone cheated. Yes, sometimes it's because, you know, dumb luck or like, whatever, those sorts of things. But sometimes it's just because someone was one was better than you one day. And it doesn't mean you're not good or you're not worth, you know, it's not worth the journey or anything. But I do think the idea of jealousy, it's like, people sometimes try to be like,
01:15:27
Speaker
You should never be jealous. And I'm like, no, it's supernatural. But you just should have the ability to be like, okay, I felt the feeling. It's not their fault.
01:15:38
Speaker
How do I center myself and how do I work on myself? Yeah. Yeah. That's a really wise way of putting it. And, um, also in in track and field back in the day, know, especially writing the front runner. So I was living in the late sixties, early seventies and a very exploitative time for track and field. Um, and in even in reading your book and other like more contemporary running books, you can still find that there's a lot of exploitation, even if there's a paycheck involved. Yes. And, um,
01:16:11
Speaker
And really the old world amateurism and like modern professionalism, like there's sometimes not a lot of distance between the two of those. And yeah, maybe runners don't need day jobs like they did in the past, but it's like athletes don't necessarily have the full autonomy that they thought professionalism was going to grant them 50, 55 years ago. I was wondering if you could just like talk that and the fact that, yeah, even though athletes might be making a good buck, There are still exploitative pressures put on them that aren't as savory as maybe they had hoped 50 years ago.
01:16:46
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I'll give like a really silly example that just happened, but I was like asked to be on a show. i was like, sounds great. Sounds fun. And then like the night before, like the producer got back to my people being like, oh, Mary talks bad about Nike. And one of our people is sponsored by Nike.
01:17:06
Speaker
And so we don't feel comfortable anymore. And I was immediately like, well, saying I talk bad about Nike is kind of crazy because I don't think I do that. I think I just talked about the fact that I was, you know, abused, but that's, you know, maybe to some semantics, but I think to me, pretty definition different. But I think it it's it's an interesting example of something where I'm like, that's somebody who was in some way scared, right? They're scared of like the repercussions that are going to come. they're scared that they don't actually have the autonomy to like talk to who they want to. And I think, you know, there's a lot of ways in which like the corporate world can do this where it can kind of like silence voices and make people scared and kind of make them not feel like they have agency. But I think the irony around sports is so often these corporations like to pretend that we are all independent contractors and therefore actually have full freedoms versus it being, if anything, even more insulated and more monopolized in a way, because there's competition, but there's competition in the sense that like everyone knows each other. And if you burn one bridge, you're kind of screwed everywhere. and I think, you know, that kind of culture of fear and people being like, this is the only way I can make money. And I don't necessarily have the tools or the skills or the ability
01:18:30
Speaker
to really do anything else because at least the way the NCAA has gone, I do think there are a lot of folks who aren't necessarily leaving feeling empowered by the degrees that they get. They're empowered based on their performances they've had in the NCAA.
01:18:46
Speaker
And I think that kind of structure of just like taking a bunch of young people and being like, we're going to tell you who where you can live and who you can train with,
01:18:57
Speaker
and like we're not i mean most people are not doing that well financially and running and i think part of the problem too is like the the influencer market has cannibalized a lot of running finances so like professionals if anything are actually getting paid less than traditionally because it's like potentially more marketing benefit to just like have someone like kind of run around with the camera and be like, oh my God, hey, um then like, you know, be like eighth at USAs. And so I do think there's, there's kind of a lot of dynamics at play that make it so that like compared to somebody who just like works at Apple, which like, I don't know, i don't work at Apple. Like maybe there's ways in which people feel a certain like power and control dynamic. You could just maybe even go work at Google or work at Facebook or work do that. In track, it doesn't really work like that. People do make sponsorship moves, but it's such a small world that it can be kind of hard if you lose an opportunity to regain one.
01:20:01
Speaker
And ah sometimes people ask like, you know, if you could give your younger self advice, what would that look like? And there, we have so many different versions of ourselves as we were, as we were younger. And I wonder for you, like what version of yourself would you give advice to? And maybe what would you say to whatever version you choose?
01:20:23
Speaker
I think the only version of myself that, there almost was advice to give is maybe the version of myself that had just left the Oregon project. And, and it's not to say that like, there aren't things I could have said to myself as I was being bullied or before I joined Alberto or anything, but I think I was always doing my best in a really messed up situation. and an older version of myself coming in and being like, don't join the team or don't do this. Like, I don't know if I even could have listened to that because I would have been like, what, not work with Alberto? Otherwise I don't get to run.
01:20:59
Speaker
Like, oh, go join this other college coach who's also an asshole. Like go be on this team with these people who are mean to me. Like there's not a lot of options here, but I think the version of myself that there could have been real impact is probably more that version of myself in like 2016. who was leaving the Oregon Project, and me sitting down and being like, go to therapy.
01:21:23
Speaker
Don't go find a sports psych because, you know, you're trying to kind of fix yourself, but you're still in this sports lens of like, can you just please make me faster again? go Go find someone who's going to see you truly as you and tell them all of it. Tell them the fact that Alberto came into your room at night. Tell them about the things that he said I didn't really start doing that until 2019. There was like a good three-year gap. And I think if I had started sooner, that would have been really, really good for me.
Reflections on Past Experiences and Future Advice
01:21:56
Speaker
And I know that's like probably a surprising answer, but I think so often we do have this like perspective of like, oh my God, I wish I could change everything. And like, yeah, of course I wish I wasn't abused, but I don't think I had control over that. I think the people who had control were the ones who were choosing to do it.
01:22:15
Speaker
Yeah, and the abuse was so like total. you know It wasn't just it was physical and emotional and yeah psychological. It was it kind of a this crate hitting you from all angles. and it's ah Do you ever look back and then like wonder how you how you made it out alive? After my dad read the memoir, like he obviously knew a lot of the stories, but some of them I had never like fully sat down and told him. And so we've had like a lot of really good conversations about it. But I think one of the things that really struck me was he was like, you know, I knew it was really bad, but I think reading it, like, I'm never going to take for granted that you're still here. And I think hearing that was, was both so sad, but also like, I sometimes forget that. Like, I think sometimes even I am in such a good place and like, I'm surrounded by such good people now and I'm very happy But I think sometimes i do need to hold that a little bit. I think especially as I embark into this career of medicine where I'm going to see people who are sometimes like at the worst places of their life and being able to kind of like maybe enter that with even more grace and understanding maybe because of the experiences I've had. Nice. Well, as they bring these conversations out for a landing, Mary, I always love asking the guests just for a recommendation of some kind. It's just like anything you're finding cool and fun that you want to share with the listener. So I would just extend that to you.
01:23:40
Speaker
Yeah, I will say um the last like great memoir I read was When Breath Becomes Air, because, of course, it's absolutely beautiful. um like i I cried so many times reading it. And as a med student, and especially as a med student at Stanford, it felt like required reading. And I and i also think...
01:23:59
Speaker
it felt really important to me, like as somebody who has struggled with like um suicidal thoughts when I was younger, um i think reading a story about death and dying, like does, like all of those experiences can make you that much more appreciative of life and also appreciative of this career where like so much of medicine is like,
01:24:22
Speaker
trying to help people live longer and be healthier and all of those things. And so I did find it on so many levels, personally, really beautiful. But even if you're like, you have none of the above of things that I just listed, um beautifully written memoir and and really, really well done.
01:24:39
Speaker
Awesome. well Well, Mary, this is so great to get to talk to you at length here about your wonderful book. It's an important book, and I'm so glad that you're just able to carve out time and talk shop and talk about just ah a few slivers of what's in there because it's it's heavy, it's deep, it's ah robust, and I can't wait for people to get their hands on it and learn ah learn through your experiences and and everything. So I just thank you so much for the work, and thanks for coming on the show to talk shop.
01:25:05
Speaker
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. This I was really excited for because I was like, oh my gosh, I got to talk about like the actual writing piece as well and with the Oregon connection and all the things. This was a great chat.
01:25:21
Speaker
Yes, awesome. Thanks to Mary for coming on the show and spending more than our allotted time together. Very busy person, especially with this book rollout. And she spent more time than ah then we had allotted. It was close to 90 minutes, which was pretty cool. That was fun.
01:25:38
Speaker
I had a lot of notes, and she really brought it. Very cool stuff. Be sure you're checking out brendanamero.com for show notes and subbing up for Pitch Club. Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. Follow the show at Creative Nonfiction Podcast on Instagram for updates on where I might be speaking and other news from the CNF pod, Expanded Universe.
01:26:01
Speaker
All right, 600 milligrams of ibuprofen for the win. Would have been 800, but I dropped one pill on the Port-A-John floor, and i was like, meh.
The Eugene Marathon: Personal Reflections and Future Goals
01:26:11
Speaker
I hope that doesn't come back to bite me. But I made it.
01:26:14
Speaker
I did it. i finished the UG Marathon, and it was a pretty magical experience. I very much wanted to take it all in. you know I didn't run with headphones on like 75% of the people around me, maybe more.
01:26:31
Speaker
The community rallied around the event, you know cheering for everyone with you know funny signs and cowbells and just cheering and music. yeah One guy set up a guitar amp and he was wearing a Batman mask and he was playing heavy metal music.
01:26:47
Speaker
it was It was wild. and The weather was perfect. Not a cloud in the sky. i think the race start might have been in the upper fortyties and it finished in the mid 60s. And I didn't want to wall myself off from the totality of the experience. just was taking it all in.
01:27:07
Speaker
Every step of the way, which was like 50,000 some odd steps. ah The men's winner came in at 215 and changed 26-year-old Jackson Sadal. And my understanding is that he's not a pro. He's an educator, which is really cool. And the woman's winner women's winner was Amanda Martin. She finished in 234.
01:27:29
Speaker
So the course, yeah it it turns back on itself in the early goings. ah So one of the coolest things was being at about mile three and then seeing the leaders on the other side at about mile seven or so coming at you you know from from afar, but they're coming at you and.
01:27:47
Speaker
It's just flying. Like it was crazy just how fast they were going. It was like so cool to see that. i'm like, whoa, that is a elite distance runners there.
01:27:59
Speaker
Not like the the two sub two guys who finished one two in the London Marathon earlier that day. Can you imagine finishing the two official, the first two official sub two marathons in a given race and say you're that second guy and you break two hours and you didn't even win?
01:28:19
Speaker
It's insane. So I popped 400 milligrams of ibuprofen at the start, and it made a huge difference. um I added another 200 about two hours into the race, so about roughly mile 13 for me at that point. um I didn't really start hurting until miles 21 to 22. That was when I hit the proverbial wall, so to speak. I had never run anything longer than 18 in training, so after 18, I was a bit nervous about...
01:28:47
Speaker
I was in uncharted territory, so to speak. I was like, wait where's the pain really going to start hitting? And it was definitely 21, 22. That's when I was like, oh boy. This is bad. I remember I was running at one point. I was just saying to myself, was just like, fuck. And a guy beside me looked over at me. He's like, ah. He's like, all right, man, we're almost there. We just like dapped each other up. I'm like, yeah.
01:29:10
Speaker
Uh, it was also getting pretty hot at that point, at least for me, you know, then 60 degrees or so at that point, I haven't been running for so long. I was starting to get real hot and I don't respond well to the heat.
01:29:23
Speaker
Um, so that compounded things for me. Um, But I kept talking to myself, and it was all mental at that point. When I made the turn eventually down Agate Street, and there was a DJ at the corner about a quarter mile from the fight from the finish, and there was a Pink Pony Club playing. I'm like, ah, that's cool. I love that song. Then the adrenaline started to kick in People were cheering as you're down this narrow straightaway before you turn onto the track for the final 200.
01:29:51
Speaker
And people were cheering. It was just really magical. It really was. And a couple of people started to kick around me and I like moved to the outside. I was like, just go, go, go. Um, but I didn't want to kick.
01:30:03
Speaker
I didn't want that final 200 meters to end at least end before too soon. If that makes any sense. So I ran on the outside lane of the track and just looked around.
01:30:16
Speaker
yeah I felt the spongy track underfoot. I looked into the giant stands at Hayward Field. I looked up onto the Jumbotron. I was filming everybody coming in.
01:30:28
Speaker
I looked behind me at the giant tower where, of course, Steve Prefontaine stands tallest. I didn't want to get in the way of other people's finishing experiences too. So I was just like, move the side, get out of, get out of the way.
01:30:42
Speaker
I didn't want to run past anyone or trespass on anyone else's photographs at the finish line. I definitely could have kicked. Like i I, had that bit of adrenaline in me where I could have like totally sprinted. But I was like, no, dude, like take it in.
01:30:56
Speaker
I worked very hard for this moment. If everything went according to plan, which is rare. ah My goal is four hours and 30 minutes. And I finished in 427 with ah very minimal walking. I didn't eat at all. No breakfast and no in-race eating. I run better fasted. The second I start putting things in my body, I tend to bonk, which is I'm not a fan of. I get weird sugar spikes, and i it's better for me to just run on an empty stomach. Have something, you know, about 12 hours, know, the night before. You have kind of a biggish meal and so forth. Energy gels kind of gross me out, but I'm going to need to get used to them at some point, especially if I want to push the boat out and go a bit faster. and You know how some people hate the texture of sushi?
01:31:41
Speaker
That's sort of with me and goo, you know, those energy gels. They just feel blech on my tongue. yeah I made my own, and I've done this before with peanut butter and maple syrup and some water, but I didn't make them thin enough, so they were gloopy and wouldn't squirt out of my bottle, so I had like these extra things in my pockets too, which were made it was uncomfortable, and they didn't work, so I didn't eat them.
01:32:04
Speaker
They were too gloopy. In any case. I walked a few aid stations to get some Gatorade in my system. Like the second half of the race, that was when I started to hit the aid stations. I walked up this one steep incline, a bridge at mile 21, one bathroom break at mile 19, and then I walked another time when I was getting really hot at about mile 25, 26. And that was it, just a little bit. Sometimes just walking...
01:32:31
Speaker
30, 40 yards when you're really tired and your heart rate comes down a little bit, you can really replenish some of your energy. Just that that short bit of walking can really, really help. It's weird how it how that works.
01:32:43
Speaker
At least for me. yeah Your mileage may vary. you yeah um If anything, I went out too slow at the start. And the real challenge was not getting, and then soon the real challenge was not getting swept up in the current of half marathon runners in the field, especially around miles seven and eight, because they could start to pick up their pace where I was barely a quarter of the way through. So I'm like peeking over at people's bibs. I'm like, oh, you're a half marathon bib. Like you go. i don't want to get swept into your undertow.
01:33:12
Speaker
And overall, though, I felt pretty great. I stuck to my plan and it actually worked. I don't say this often, but I was really proud of myself. like i just For so long, i haven't done anything hard. And that was the idea behind behind this. was like, you know what? Sign up for something. Do something challenging. Do something hard.
01:33:32
Speaker
yeah Here I am, like I spend most of my days just sitting in the studio, bemoaning my standing in the literary scene. so My goals for this race, were they were modest but challenging for me at this at this age and this relative fitness.
01:33:48
Speaker
I didn't really talk about it at all because I was a little embarrassed and I didn't want to say I was doing this thing and then get hurt or just give up as I am wont to do and have to, you know, drop out and then have to explain myself to people.
01:34:01
Speaker
This was very much a personal journey of sorts. And the race itself was just really fun. It actually was fun. i had I really enjoyed myself out there. I was having a lot of fun through most of it until that final five miles or so. That's when it was like, ugh.
01:34:18
Speaker
That's when it was just the grind, baby. It was just a fucking grind. It was cool to see other people who were similarly grinding and pushing themselves and hurting and encouraging each other.
01:34:29
Speaker
yeah i was around this one guy for most of the second half of the race, and he was such like a positive dude, just thanking people for cheering. and I was just a little bit faster than him for the most part, and I'd stop for a bathroom break or hit an aid station, and he'd kind of keep going by, and I'd just walk a little bit, and I'd eventually kind of catch up to him and and it just kind of trot by. So we were kind of going back and forth like that. And um I was ahead of him when I was entering Hayward, and um I began looking around like a crazy person and um just to take it all in, like I said earlier. And I saw him enter, and you just started sprinting down the track, down the homestretch on the inside inside lane. i was like, yeah, man, go. And he's pumping his fists like crazy. The crowd's like cheering him on. and like It was really great. It was like cool. I'm like, ah, nice, man. I know your pain. i remember all of your pain.
01:35:23
Speaker
And it was cool to see him get that kick and have that moment. and And I definitely want to run it again next year. And um I'd like to push the boat out a little more. I think I can run it about an hour faster. I really do. yeah But for now, I'm just taking about two weeks off from running. And then um'll then I'll start to plan something where I titrate my cruising speed down, you know, month over month for about 30 31 weeks.
01:35:51
Speaker
Maybe running three days a week and then just trying to bring my speed cruising speed down. And that should get me to a place where I'll be 20 weeks out from the actual race and then start the training in earnest.
01:36:06
Speaker
So it's kind of like training the train, if you will. I don't want to lose my base, that i've our my hard-earned base right now, so I'll try and maintain and get stronger in other ways.
01:36:18
Speaker
And I'm not usually one to feel self-satisfied. I think you think you know that. It's probably something that drives a lot of you crazy. But this experience, I don't know. It proved something in myself, and that energy has been contagious. like I'm still kind of buzzing from it nearly a week later.
01:36:35
Speaker
yeah I want this energy to carry over to other things, to this podcast community, to to my writing, to my book projects. I highly recommend the Eugene Marathon if you're into that kind of thing.
01:36:47
Speaker
doesn't the The whole experience, it's a ah very it's not as big as Boston or New York or all these mega marathons, but it's like a really quaint, well-attended experience community turns out for it. The weather is perfect.
01:37:06
Speaker
It's track town USA. It punches up in weight class for what it is. It's pretty great. I highly recommend it. I really do. And it's going to be, I think next year, it'll be April 25th, 2027. And that date, the significance of that date for the people of this audience and people who know me, that is the day that Steve Prefontaine in 1969 broke the national two-mile record and ah the high school two-mile record. So there you go.
01:37:36
Speaker
It's a significant day in the lore of Steve Prefontaine that you can read about in The Front Runner, The Life of Steve Prefontaine. Stay wild, C&Fers. And if you can't do