"You never know what insight or information you're going to glean from someone, and so I want to be open to surprises. And not have any preconceived notions of what, who this person is, what they're going to tell me, imposing my own values, beliefs, whatever on them, because it's all a discovery," says Pulitzer Prize-winner Barry Meier, whose piece "You Can Run" appears in The Atavist Magazine.

Barry Meier is here for another Atavistian chat! Yeah, these have not come out in as timely a manner as I had hoped. The late delay of the “revived” one with Mac Montandon, and having pods that were getting moldy in the can too precedence. Anyway …

Barry Meier has won this little award you might have heard of called the, what is it, oh, yes, the Pulitzer Prize as part of a team of reporters in International Reporting for the New York Times. He’s also been a finalist for the Pulitzer and a two-time winner of the George Polk Award. He’s got a new piece out for The Atavist magazine titled: You Can Run: When their parents ripped two young sisters from their privileged lives, gave them fake names, and took them on the lam, they thought it was because their father was in trouble with the IRS. It would be years before they learned the truth about his life of crime.”

He’s the author of three books, Pain Killer, which was the first to chronicle the Sackler family and the origin of the opioid epidemic. “The book that started it all,” wrote Patrick Radden Keefe, whose book Empire of Pain was heavily informed by Barry’s work. Barry also wrote Spooked and Missing Man. You can learn more about Barry at barryemierbooks.com [http://barryemierbooks.com/] . In this conversation we talk about:

 * Using the boundaries of an envelope to map out a story
 * Interviewing and the tools he uses or doesn’t use
 * Being open to surprises
 * Beginnings, endings, and pacing

This episode pairs well with Ep. 385 with Robert Kolker

Episode 532: Barry Meier Likes to be Open to Surprises

"I always think, 'Jesus, this person could be reading War and Peace, and they picked up this dopey little book.' You know what I mean? So the best thing I could do is be interesting or helpful. I can't be boring, and I've got to try to be helpful," says Austin Kleon, author of Don't Call It Art: 10 Ways to Create Like a Kid Again.

What a pleasure to welcome back Austin Kleon to the show to chat up his new book, his first in seven years, Don’t Call It Art: 10 Ways to Create Like a Kid Again. It’s published by Tarcher. Like Austin’s previous books in Steal Like an Artist,  Show Your Work, and Keep Going, this pink wonder is the size of those old double-album CD cases you’d get in the 90s and it’s packed with insights and inspiration Austin learned from his two young boys about being an artist and how to be a creative person in times where creativity is needed more than ever. Fun stuff.

So Austin is a funny, irreverent, sometimes cranky, but almost always inspiring based on his posture in the creative world. The stuff he curates and his generosity in sharing it is a big reason his Substack audience is 309,000 people strong and as of this taping, #5 in art & illustration on the stack. 

You can also learn more about him at austinkleon.com [http://austinkleon.com/] where he frequently blogs, though he’s turned the dial down on that a bit in favor of the paid audience of his Tuesday newsletters. I’ve been plugged into the Kleon-verse since about 2014 right when Show Your Work came out and he made appearances on Creative Live with Chase Jarvis, so it’s been cool to see the arc of his career to date.

In this episode, we talk about:

 * Place and his Ohio roots
 * The farmer approach
 * The idea of uncertainty
 * Knowing less
 * Getting back to that thing
 * The most punk thing Metallica did
 * What if Austin is the apprentice now?
 * A revelation from Fiona Apple
 * How his paid newsletter audience helped cook the book
 * Researching in the open
 * Knowing what weight class he’s in
 * Being interesting and helpful
 * Going full-on Beast Mode
 * The coveting of creative people
 * How jealousy shows what’s broken in you
 * And how his kids brought punk back into his life

If you’re going to pair this episode with anything, check out:

 * Episode 146: Austin Kleon
 * Episodes 169 and 433 with Chase Jarvis
 * Episode 266 with Kristen Radtke
 * Episode 369 with Akeem S. Roberts
 * Episode 480 with Dana Jeri Maier
 * Episode 486 with Roz Chast



Episode 531: Austin Kleon Goes Beast Mode in ‘Don’t Call It Art’

"Maybe your first images are some bulked up organism, or whatever. Then there's that kind of like sinewy strength that you see in like middleweight fighters. Roberto Duran comes to mind as the epiphany, like a super powerful, sinewy guy, right? And so I think that's what we're talking about too, is just those different forms of power, economy is really seductive to me now," says Maccabee Montandon, whose piece on his brother Asher is featured as a "revived" Atavist story.

The factory is running behind here at CNF Pod HQ, but we’ve got the first of two Atavist pods coming this month. It’s Maccabee Montandon being featured for The Atavist’s “revived” series. This story, originally published by Gawker in 2013, details the story of Mac’s brother Asher, who was murdered in Los Angeles in the 1990s.

Mac is a journalist, writer, filmmaker, all around creative person and in this episode we talk about:

 * Obsessions and the best forms to tell stories
 * Being creatively impulsive
 * Word economy and sinewy strength
 * How the proximity to tragedy often activates people
 * Writing through grief
 * And his strength as a writer (he’s fast)

Visit magazine.atavist.com to read "A Hollywood Ending."



Episode 530: Finding that ‘Sinewy Strength’ in the Prose with Maccabee Montandon

"They want the secret, and the secret is little and often over the long haul," says Dan John, author of several books on strength and fitness, most recently The Fitness Forge: Master Coaching Tools that Build Real Strength.

Today we’ve got a bit of a curve ball, a backdoor slider, but not really. It’s Dan John, who is something of a Swiss army knife of wisdom and kindness and strength and conditioning. He’s been a long time strength coach and a master communicator of how to get real-life strong, not influencer, flash-in-the-pan strong, the kind of strong that allows you to fill out your shirt, carry all the groceries in one go, and shovel the driveway without leaving yourself in traction for four days.

I’ve recommended his books many times on this show and in newsletters, and his approach to strength very much rhymes with writing, so that’s a big reason why I wanted to invite him on to talk it out. You can visit danjohnuniversity.com [http://danjohnuniversity.com/] to learn more about him  and to buy books like the Easy Strength Omnibook, Easy Strength for Fat Loss, his two Armor Building Formula books and his latest The Fitness Forge: Master coaching tools that build real strength.

The real crux of easy strength is that it echoes what Percy Cerutty, the Australian running coach, had his runners do in the 1950s, and it’s an approachable system that doesn’t feel like you’ve been put through a wood chipper. I spent most of my 30s training like I was a juiced up bodybuilder, hobbling around most days with that deep, bone ache. As I’ve aged, training in that manner is unfeasible and, well, fucking stupid, plus easy strength is awesome for running, which I’m doing quite a lot these days.

So Dan John has been a champion discus thrower coming up on the coattails of the great throwers of the 1970s, guys like Brian Oldfield and Mac Wilkins and Peter Shmock. His lifting approach has always been geared around utility, not aesthetics, by and large. He has written many books like Mass Made Simple, 40 Years with a Whistle, Can You Go, Never Let Go, and several others. Some are only available on the big A, others are available as PDFS through his website.

They imbue a sense of possibility, that things are achievable, and that little and often over the long haul  is doable and repeatable. If you’re into fads, Dan is not for you and he often injects so much personal anecdote and wisdom from a life of nearly 70 years into his work and his podcast, the Dan John University Podcasts where he answers listener questions every week.

He’s very centering for me. Even hearing him talk through something as simple as his daily pirate map, which is a collection of daily habits, and merely hearing him so often articulate that defrags my computer, if that makes any sense.

So in this conversation, we talk about:

 * Parasocial relationships
 * Marvel and Greek heroes
 * The spiderweb effect of his brain
 * Open Culture
 * Little and often over the long haul
 * The secret
 * Being a slave to habits
 * Parallels between lifting and writing
 * Collecting the links
 * Getting small, easy wins out of the way
 * Inspiration is for amateurs
 * Having skin in the game
 * And community making us great

You’ll find dan @coachdanjohn on instagram and of course visit danjohnuniversity.com [http://danjohnuniversity.com/] to see if his books or his inner circle is right for you.

Episode 529: Dan John says, ‘Inspiration is for Amateurs’ … and He’s Correct

"It all has to come from within. So we each have to be in conversation with ourselves and with the work. It's really a relationship, not a project," says Ramona Ausubel, author of Unstuck: A Writer's Guide.

Today we have Ramona Ausubel, author of Unstuck: A Writer’s Guide. It’s published by Tin House.

Ramona’s curriculum vitae is pretty dope. She’s the author of the novels The Last Animal, Sons and Daughters of East and Plenty and No One is Here Except All of Us and the craft book Unstuck: 101 Doorways Leading from the Blank Page to the Last Page.

Had a TON of fun with this one and it’s a craft bomb.

Ramona’s work has appeared in The New Yorker, Tin House, The New York Times, Electric Literature, and The Paris Review online. She has taught with Tin House, Bread Loaf, and she’s a professor at Colorado State University.

This is a really fun and really crafty chat. We talk about:

 * Why people want to be writers in the first place
 * The people who stick around
 * Coming up with ways through
 * It's a relationship not a project
 * No writing is ever wasted
 * Nobody needs a kind-of-written book
 * Submission clubs
 * The offering is the action
 * Community
 * Shame, doubt, and envy
 * Lifelong process of voice
 * Inviting in other influences
 * When querying asking 'who will you be?'
 * Platform

You can learn more about Ramona at ramonaausubel.com [http://ramonausubel.com/] and follow her on Instagram @ramonaausubel.

If you like this episode, I would definitely check out:

 * Eps. 48 and 207 with Roy Peter Clark
 * Ep. 49 with Dinty W. Moore
 * Ep. 50 with Ted Conover

Episode 528: Stuck? Ramona Ausubel Will ‘Unstuck’ You!

"I say this all the time, and I'll say it again: the truth is a block of wood, and I know the sculpture I carve out of that block of wood looks different than the sculpture my mother carves out of that block of wood, right? But the truth — the block of wood — is what what happens, but the art we make out of that is up to us," says Isaac Fitzgerald, author of American Rambler: Walking the Trail of Johnny Appleseed.

We’ve got Isaac Fitzgerald returning to the podcast. He’s going to be at Powells on May 29, 7 p.m., in convo with Lidia Yuknavitch, and I’ll likely be heading up the 5 to photo bomb them because Isaac has a new book out called American Rambler: Walking the Trail of Johnny Appleseed. It is published by Knopf. Great talk. We were buzzin’, man. In any case, you know Isaac maybe from his bookish appearances on The Today Show, and he’s also the author of the brilliant memoir Dirtbag, Massachusetts, a coming of age story.

I liken American Rambler to a coming of middle-age story and as Isaac walks and drives in the footsteps of one John Chapman, better known as Johnny Appleseed. It’s a book that deals with that squishy time as we crest into our forties and reckon with mortality as well as the greater disconnection we’re collectively experiencing, which is why Isaac set out, largely on foot, to put his phone down and live in the world. His essay on walking for The Guardian, linked up in the show notes, very much informed and even catalyzed American Rambler.

So Isaac is a pretty special dude. I love the posture he takes in the world. When I had lunch with Lidia before her live appearance on the show, we talked about how Isaac had jumped into the comments on a couple of our Instagram posts and Lidia asked me, “Is Isaac coming to this?”

I said, “I don’t think so. I mean he’s in New York.”

“It would totally be like him to just show up.”

And I kinda love that idea. I want to make more of that effort myself.

So in this episode we talk about:

 * Putting the phone down
 * Living in the world
 * Walking 20,000 steps a day
 * The tension between building community and withdrawing into solitude
 * The scaffolding of the story
 * How he was late to the arc of his own story
 * Stories become what they’re supposed to be
 * How the truth is like a block of wood
 * The black dog as literary device
 * First lines
 * And how On The Road informed American Rambler

Isaac can be found on Instagram at isaac.fitzgerald and you can join his Substack list Walk It Off and learn more about him at his website isaacfitzgerald.net [http://isaacfitzgerald.net/]. He’s also collaborated with the brilliant cartoonist Wendy McNaughton on two books about tattoos, Pen and Ink and Knives and Ink. Great stuff.

If you like this episode, I would definitely check out Isaac’s first appearance on Ep. 353. I’d also check out:

 * Ep. 100 with Mary Karr
 * Episode 200 with Nick Flynn
 * Ep. 358: Erica J. Berry
 * Ep. 472 with Melissa Febos
 * Ep. 503 with Jason Brown

Episode 527: Isaac Fitzgerald says the Truth is a Block of Wood

"This is also me saying here's a literary reading of the universe through physics. There's a way you can read The Edge of Space-Time as me  doing close-reading for a few 100 pages. I'm close-reading equations. I'm close-reading Dirac. I'm close-reading Hawking and Ellis, but it's all different versions of a literary practice," says Chanda Prescod-Weinstein, author of The Edge of Space-Time: Particles, Poetry, and the Cosmic Dream Boogie (Pantheon Books).

Coming at you at the speed of sound, CNFers, with Chanda Prescod-Weinstein, who is the author of The Disordered Cosmos: A Journey into Dark Matter, Spacetime, and Dreams Deferred and her latest book The Edge of Space-Time: Particles, Poetry, and the Cosmic Dream Boogie. It’s published by Pantheon Books.

She is an associate professor of physics and core faculty member in women’s and gender studies at the University of New Hampshire. Her work lives at the intersection of particle physics, cosmology, and astrophysics and she’s also a theorist of Black feminist science studies.

Her book is accessible, for sure, but it’s mind-bendy and it strikes me as the kind of book you want to read twice. One, it’s good company, and two, the material she translates is really difficult to get your head around, but that’s the nature of the quantum mechanics, and general relativity, and particle physics, and how the hell did we get here in the first place? Gah!

So Chanda talks about:

 * The publishing business in conversations she had with CNF Pod alum Keith O’Brien
 * Writing for Black and queer audiences
 * The different selves who approach the page
 * Paying attention to acknowledgements
 * Epigraph rights and how they set the vibe
 * The fork in the road researchers face when they write a pop science book
 * Physicist brain
 * A literary reading of the universe
 * The world keeps happening while you’re writing
 * Understanding metaphors
 * And what Newton and Einstein might talk about if they sat down at a bar together

Be sure you visit Chanda’s website chanda.science and follow her on Instagram at chanda.prescod.weinstein.

This episode will pair well with:

 * Episode 103: Persistent, Constant, Careful Work with Dennis Overbye
 * Episode 111: The Empowering and Exciting Nature of Film with Emer Reynolds
 * Episode 307: Greg Brennecka
 * Episode 334: Katrina Miller
 * Episode 395: “The Six,” Mini-Deadlines and the Twang with Loren Grush

Episode 526: Chanda Prescod-Weinstein’s Literary Reading of the Universe

"I'm very comfortable not writing perfectly. I think a lot of writers have difficulty writing because they can be such good editors that there's almost this like, inherent need of sometimes rereading the same chapter over and over again and trying to make it perfect. And so I think, for me, I'm  very comfortable with the idea of, like, let me just get stuff on paper," says Mary Cain, author of This is Not About Running: A Memoir.

It’s Mary Cain! She’s @runmarycain on Instagram and she serves on the board of The Army of Survivors and the founder of the nonprofit Atalanta NYC which employs professional female runners to serve as mentors to girls in underserved part so the city.  For a certain subset of people they’re gonna be like, Who dat? To them, I say, Mary was a running prodigy in the 2010s, the fastest high school girl in America and one of the fastest across all ages before the age of 18 in events like the 800 meters and the 1,500. She was recruited by the now disgraced Alberto Salazar for the Nike Oregon Project where she was physically, emotionally, and psychologically abused by Salazar in a win-at-all-costs culture.

In 2019, she published a video op-ed with the New York Times that brought down the Nike Oregon Project and Alberto Salazar. It lit a fire and this book is also lighting a firestorm as well.

This was a really fun conversation. I was working in specialty running retail when Mary exploded onto the scene, so it was just really cool to chat with her. Part of the appeal for her coming on this show was to talk about the writing, which she’s not really going to experience on this book tour, which will primarily be on the running shows. She was very generous with her time and we talked for almost 90 minutes on topics like:

Her love of Hemingway

 * Procrastination
 * Writing in the present tense
 * The benefits of reading when you’re writing
 * Finishing as a skill
 * Not writing perfectly
 * Sticking to artificial deadlines
 * Seasonality in writing
 * Support networks
 * Starting from pure anger
 * The monetization of fake advocacy
 * And the one sentence she wrote that I wish I wrote

Mary is a medical student now at STanford University and basically runs for fun. This episode will pair well with my conversations with Maggie Mertens, Christine Yu, Lauren Fleshman and Renee Hess.

I had a real blast talking to her and I think you’l enjoy as well. Parting shot on my marathon experience, but for now, here’s the super cool Mary Cain.

Episode 525: Mary Cain Started with Pure Anger in ‘This Is Not About Running’

"In the case of being a storyteller, I keep a document that I call my nonfiction compost pile. I keep little snippets of things that I've heard but it didn't really dive deeper into it. When you have other things to fall back on, it's easier to to pivot and say, 'Okay, this one didn't work out.' If you really believe in a story, you're going to find somebody else who believes in it too," says Nick Davidson, whose "Big Game" is this month's featured Atavist story.

We’ve got Nick Davidson (@nickgdavidson on IG) returning to the pod because he has within the span of about two years landed ANOTHER story with our dear friends at the Atavist Magazine. Nose to tail, this is one of the best Atavist pods you’re going to hear. I don’t know what was in the air, but Jonah Ogles, the lead editor, and Nick, were in the zone. I’m very excited for you to sink into this one for reasons I think that’ll be clear once you sit with it. Head to magazine.atavist.com [http://magazine.atavist.com/] to read the story and consider subscribing, and no, I don’t get kickbacks and I, in fact, pay for my own subscription, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Nick’s story chronicles the undercover operation to take down dozens of poachers in the San Luis Valley of southern Colorado. The federal agent at the heart of it, George Morrison, goes undercover and what follows is a riveting story that raises all kinds of questions and blurs the lines between right and wrong. It's titled: Big Game: Colorado’s San Luis Valley was a wildlife poacher’s paradise. Then an undercover federal agent arrived.

Nick  can be found at nickgdavidson.com [http://nickgdavidson.com/]. His work has appeared in Outside, Men’s Journal, Truly Adventurous, Garden & Gun, High Country News, Backpacker, VICE Sports, and Popular Science.

There’s a Buddhist vibe to Nick in that he’s an eternal optimistic and he surrenders to the current, not in a passive way, I know that sounds contradictory, but what I mean is he’s not one to frantically paddle upstream. He practices in the martial arts, which imbues him with a sense of confidence of mind and body; he preaches non-attachment, which is always good materialistically but also when it comes to stories that might not pan out. He’s of abundant mindset and he  very much had me questioning my headspace, which as you know is a cesspool of toxic goo.

So in our conversation, we talk about:

 * How he established a freelance career
 * Pitching
 * Excitement for the story
 * Having a positive attitude
 * Telling the story that’s right in front of you
 * Google alerts
 * Writing long
 * Developing character
 * Beginnings and endings
 * And when the magic happens

I think you’re really going to leave this chat feeling energized at possibility. Maybe that’s just me.

Order The Front Runner [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-front-runner-brendan-omeara?variant=43044900962338]

Welcome to Pitch Club [https://welcometopitchclub.substack.com/]

Show notes: brendanomeara.com [http://brendanomeara.com/]

Episode 524: Nick Davidson Was Writing an Atavist Story All Along

"The Chronology of Water story was an 11-page story written in tiny fragments. And the MFA program I was in, they told me, that's not a story. It's a poem or something. It's a list of fragments. I'm like, 'Fuck you!' My whole enterprise has been to trouble the edges," says Lidia Yuknavitch, bestselling author of several books, most recently a memoir titled Reading the Waves.

Lidia Yuknavitch makes her thrilling return to the podcast, this a live recording of the show at Gratitude Brewing in Eugene in partnership with the revival of the Northwest Review. My understanding is that there’s a significant literary prize, including creative nonfiction essays. You might want to try you filthy animals. The Northwest Review was the first place that ever published Lidia, a short, 11-page story called the Chronology of Water, so, maybe YOU could be the next Lidia Yuknavitch, though we know that’s impossible so don’t even try.

She’s the author of eight books of fiction, nonfiction, and the editor of an essay collection on menopause called The Big M. She’s best known for her memoir, or anti-memoir called The Chronology of Water, the novels Thrust, Verge, and The Small Backs of Children. And her most recent nonlinear, fractured memoir is the brilliant Reading the Waves.

She won the Oregon Book Award in 2016 and also stood on the TED stage and delivered a beautiful talk about misfits. Her work has appeared  in Guernica, Ms., and Another Chicago Magazine. She founded the workshop series Corporeal Writing in Portland, Oregon. She is a very good swimmer.

We talk about:

 * Getting rid of the good/bad binary
 * Writing in a group setting
 * Inventing your own rituals
 * The beautiful and the brutal living next to each other
 * Taking your turn
 * Troubling the edges
 * Being good compost
 * And how her market days are over and she’s cool with that

You’ll want to pair this episode with 217, Lidia’s first time as well as:

 * Episode 447: Brooke Champagne Sits Back from the Suckitude
 * Episode 498: Sasha Bonet on Not Holding Back, and 
 * Episode 123: Elena Passarello on Listening to the book, Polaroids, and Self-Doubt

Dig it, friend.

Order The Front Runner [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-front-runner-brendan-omeara?variant=43044900962338]

Welcome to Pitch Club [https://welcometopitchclub.substack.com/]

Show notes: brendanomeara.com [http://brendanomeara.com/]

Episode 523: Lidia Yuknavitch Troubles the Edges

The Creative Nonfiction Podcast with Brendan O'Meara is a weekly podcast that showcases leaders in narrative journalism, essay, memoir, documentary film, radio and podcasts about the art and craft of telling true stories.   Follow the show @creativenonfictionpodcast on Instagram and visit patreon.com/cnfpod to support!

Brendan O'Meara

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