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Episode 512: Mary Margaret Alvarado Likes Her Drafts Ice Cold
367 Plays8 hours ago
"A certain sort of dogged obsessiveness seems to help. I remember hearing Tobias Wolfe speak once that talent is wonderful and widely distributed on Earth, but sitting down and putting in the hours is where it's at," says Mary Margaret Alvarado, who wrote "That's Somebody's Son" for The Atavist.
It’s a little later than planned, but here we feature Mary Margaret Alvarado’s piece for The Atavist Magazine titled “That’s Somebody’s Son: Three Mothers, One Struggle: saving their children with schizophrenia.” It’s a piece that that Mia, as Mary Margaret goes by, pitched more than a year ago and it was rejected. But Mia went back to the drawing board, basically wrote the entire thing, came back, and boom here we are.
We’re going to hear from Seyward Darby about her side of the table and why this piece was at first rejected and that special feeling when a great pitch comes across the transom.
Mary Margaret Alvarado is a multi-faceted writer with her poetry and nonfiction appearing in The Iowa Review, The Kenyon Review, VQR, Outside, and The Georgia Review, among other publications. She is the author of the poetry collection Hey Folly and the nonfiction book American Weather. She lives in Colorado.
In our chat we talk about:
- Dogged obsessiveness
- Cold drafts
- Ambition
- Trust
- Reimagining the MFA
- And stocking produce
Promotional support: The 2026 Power of Narrative Conference. Use narrative20 at checkout for 20% off your tuition. Visit combeyond.bu.edu.
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
Take a big ol' drag of coffee. Nice.
Podcast Sponsorship and Conference Promo
00:00:06
Speaker
Oh, hey, CNFers. It's Creative Nonfiction Podcast. And wouldn't you know, this podcast shares a promotional sponsorship with the 2026 Power of Narrative Conference taking place March 27th and March 28th in lovely Boston, Massachusetts. This year's keynote speakers include Ken Burns, Patrick Radden-Keefe, Angela Patton and Natalie Ray, Sarah Stillman, and Asma Khalid.
00:00:31
Speaker
There's a handful of CNF pod alums on the total roster, so you're going to really want to take advantage. If you use the promo code NARRATIVE20 at checkout, you get 20% off your fee. That's some serious cheddar.
00:00:44
Speaker
Visit combeyond.bu.edu to register. Repairing, restoring, reconnecting, through true storytelling.
00:00:55
Speaker
Yeah, it really matters to me. And I get that genre is like an invention and it's historically specific and this, that, and the other. But I mean, I think we're actually seeing the fallout of fabricating in our democracy.
Introduction to Featured Story by Mary Margaret Alvarado
00:01:15
Speaker
Oh, hey, CNEffors. It's the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell. Mm-hmm. I'm your normie host, Brendan O'Meara. Hey, hey. It's a little later than planned.
00:01:28
Speaker
It's okay, though. But here we are, featuring Mary Margaret Alvarado's piece for The Atavist magazine, titled That's Somebody's Son. Three mothers, one struggle, saving their children with schizophrenia.
00:01:41
Speaker
Heavy piece. Great piece, naturally. It's a piece that Mia, as Mary Margaret goes by, pitched more than a year ago, and it was rejected by Sayward Darby.
00:01:52
Speaker
But Mia went back to the drawing board, basically wrote the entire thing, reported the entire thing, and came back to Sayward. And boom, here we are.
The Pitch Club Sponsorship
00:02:03
Speaker
This podcast is sponsored by the newsletter Pitch Club, the monthly substack where you read cold pitches and hear the authors audio annotating their thinking behind how they sold and crafted their pitches. How to pitch an agent, an editor, a feature, an essay, a source. Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com, forever free.
00:02:23
Speaker
Read a little, listen a little, learn a lot. We're going to hear from the rejector-in-chief, I'm sorry, the editor-in-chief, LOL, Sayward Darby about her side of the table and why this piece was at first rejected and that special feeling when a great pitch comes across the transom.
00:02:41
Speaker
I'll give Mia more of an intro when we reach her part of the conversation, but for now, here's Sayward Darby. Cue up the riff. Huh.
00:02:56
Speaker
I'm no fun. I want to be fun. i want people to think that I'm fun. I think I'm fun, but I don't write about fun stuff. I didn't get a dongle. I'm really sorry. Don't at me. but This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
Why Alvarado's Story Was Initially Rejected
00:03:21
Speaker
What's the feeling like? You're scanning your inboxes for pitches and you're reading and you're like, and then you come across one that is like really pop. You're like, oh, wow. Like that could be a good thing. Like what's that like when you, when you come across those?
00:03:34
Speaker
I mean, it's exciting, right? It's like an adrenaline rush, essentially, when you know I feel really excited about something. um But I will, it's funny you ask that about this particular story because, or in the context of this particular story, because i actually, she pitched me maybe,
00:03:52
Speaker
a year or so ago, and I rejected it, this story, I rejected it. Because at that point, it was just an idea, and it was really hard in the abstract to understand how it was going to come together. Like, I thought it was a great idea. She and I went back and forth quite a bit, if I recall. But it was just one of those pieces where it was like, this is going to entirely come down to the writing and the execution in a way that, you know, if a piece is,
00:04:23
Speaker
you know, really deeply reported and has like really obvious narrative contours, you know, you can assign and say, cool, now, you know, go report and draft it. um Because you like I know that absolute worst case scenario, like I could put it together, right? like somebody could deliver a draft and if it's not working, whatever, like I know what the story is, I can put it together. This is an example of a story where it really, really, really came down to whether or not the writer had
Emotional Impact and Themes of Alvarado's Story
00:04:53
Speaker
a vision for it and could write it
00:04:56
Speaker
and And I told her, I was like, i'm really sorry. Like, it's just one of those things. Like, I kind of need to read the story to know. And she was like, no problem. And then, you know, lo and behold, a year later, she sent me a draft. And it was so good. um And this was the thing, like, she could pull it off. Like, she's a really good writer. She had a very specific vision for how she wanted the piece to feel. and it was just so...
00:05:21
Speaker
obvious on the page. And i remember I shared it with Jonah and he and I both were like, man, this is a really special piece. And kind of the ideal situation where you're like, I really like this idea, but I don't know somebody is going to pull it off. And then she pulled it off and then some. not exactly the scenario you're asking about. um Because this was, you know, an instance where I was like, I really like it. I just don't know if it's going to work.
00:05:46
Speaker
um And then I think it was the kind of story that was just important enough to her that she felt like i have to write it. um And she did. And it's so, so wonderful. um i mean, devastating, obviously, but ah but also so wonderful and couldn't have been written by anybody else.
00:06:02
Speaker
That's the other thing, right? Like you're reading this story and you're like, you need somebody who is so close to the story and so close to these people. And um and I think she just she killed it. She nailed it. yeah And this story batted lead off in the Sunday Longreads newsletter, the aggregation of all those great Longreads stories that Don Venata and Jacob Feldman put together. And um I saw you had posted on social just that this is one of the the best stories that you've ever worked on at the Atavis. What was it about it that really came made you come to that summation of it?
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, look, it's ah it's in some ways an unusual story for us um because like I said, the narrative contours are not obvious, right? Like the beats of the story. it would be very it would be very a very difficult story to like storyboard or outline, right? It's so intimate. It's so...
00:06:57
Speaker
closely observed on these three women and then, you know, the the slightly wider lens of of their families. But I think what's so, so special about it, and the Sunday Longreads said this, you really do kind of feel like you're holding your breath while reading this story because you're you're so immediately drawn in to this world and into like the struggles that these people are going through and you so badly want them to be okay.
00:07:28
Speaker
Right. And I think that Mia goes by Mary Margaret as her byline, but she is Mia. Mia, you know, just did this amazing job you making these scenes only, so you know, she, there's, i think there's only one, in maybe two scenes that she actually witnessed. Everything else is reconstructed. And yet she manages to make you feel like you are watching it happen.
00:07:54
Speaker
And, you know, it's in case after case, like quite frankly, a life and death, life or death situation, right? Because, you know, somebody is going through psychosis, You just really don't know what's going to happen on the other side. And so I feel like this story just, it's one of the most closely observed stories I've ever worked on. And I think that makes it exceptional, but then it just has so much heart, you know, like it has so much, i don't know.
Personal Influence and Reader Reactions to the Story
00:08:23
Speaker
It's just like the, the depth of feeling and compassion and empathy is pretty rare, honestly, that somebody, know,
00:08:32
Speaker
can achieve that in writing. You know, they might be feeling it but then to be able to achieve it in writing um and like the scene and I, you know, I obviously want everybody to go read the story and I don't want to give anything away, but there's an exceptional scene where um one of the mothers filmed her child in a state of psychosis.
00:08:54
Speaker
and did it out of out of desperation. Like I just, you know, it's so hard to describe what it's like when you are dealing with someone um in psychosis and it was like, well, let me videotape this, not videotape it, but you know, on your phone to show somebody like this is what it looks like. And that scene is, i like, I'll never, ever, ever forget it. And every time I read it, which was, you know, dozens of times um over the course of editing it, um I always just felt myself so, I guess my heart was just like cracking open every single time. um And I think part of it, I will also say is, you know, I became a mom a year ago. and this is a story very much about mothering. And I think Mia, who was also a mother, four, I believe her ability to convey the unconditional love
00:09:41
Speaker
love that a parent has for a child, no matter what the circumstances are, just, it just shines through in the story. So, so yeah, and I think it's one of those, it's already a story that we've gotten so many nice notices from readers about what it meant to them. And, you know, for instance, a woman I went to college with who, you know, we kind of loosely follow each other on social media, but she sent me a long note um on Instagram to tell me,
00:10:07
Speaker
My sister took her own life a year ago, and it's something that I haven't been able to really talk about publicly. But stories like this, like, I don't know, make me feel like there's a place for there to be a conversation, like that kind of stuff.
00:10:19
Speaker
And I just knew working on the story with Mia that it would be that kind of piece, you know, that on the other side, people would be responding to it in this deeply, deeply personal way. And I was actually texting with Evan Ratliff, who founded the Atavist, about it.
00:10:35
Speaker
And he pointed out, he was like, you know, i think that everybody probably knows somebody who has either, you know, dealt with really profound mental illness themselves or, you know, you know somebody who knows somebody. um and And I think there's this...
00:10:53
Speaker
sort of universality to the story where people can say, oh, that that is exactly what it's like to watch someone struggle, to wish you could help, um not know how. And I think it's quietly its own, like the the piece is so, again, intimate is the word that keeps coming to mind, but at the same time, you know, it's it's a pretty quiet but powerful call for action, right?
Call for Mental Health Reform and Editing Process
00:11:20
Speaker
When I say that, I mean, you know, to reform mental health care, but also to sort of revolutionize the way we think about people who have profound mental illness. um And I think that Mia does a really beautiful job at various points, particularly right near the end of, you know, saying like, that's ultimately like these these mothers want their children to have rich, full lives.
00:11:47
Speaker
But maybe that doesn't meet the definition of what, you know, we as a culture mean by a rich, full life. And so what if we're wrong? And what if, you know, we need to sort of reassess and redefine things? um Anyway, I could go on and on. I just I think this piece, I think this piece has a tremendous amount of heart, while also being really uniquely beautifully written. um and I think that's the other thing is like, you're just like, oh, like I will always be like, oh, Mia Alvarado wrote that piece, you know, um like that is her voice very distinctly on the page. And with her piece, given that it was initially turned down, but then comes back to you a year later, you know, essentially fully formed, you know, what was the, you know, your eye approaching it? And, you what did you see in it? And what are the the challenges that you saw from your side of the table to to make it its best possible version?
00:12:40
Speaker
You know, I think there was a balance I wanted to strike between keeping Mia's style absolutely and sort of, you know, again, quiet intimacy, while also making sure that it felt like there was narrative propulsion to the story. i think that we achieved that by, you know, opening with a tragedy.
00:13:02
Speaker
Like, I'm not giving anything away. It's, you know, the first paragraph. And then... setting up that the question becomes what happened, right? Not what is going to happen, where does this end? Because you know where it ends.
00:13:16
Speaker
It's more a matter of well what what happened to lead to that. And so we sort of restructured a bit, ah because originally, if I recall correctly, there was more Ben more of Ben's story near the front of the piece. And we sort of moved a chunk a big chunk of that toward the latter half of the piece because it felt like something we wanted to work up to, the revelation of everything that happened. And then um the other thing was figuring out how to
00:13:50
Speaker
signal when the women's stories intersected. um Because the way it was pitched to me originally, even before i got the full draft from her, was there are these three mothers, they each have children with profound mental illness, ultimately diagnosed as having schizophrenia, and they have formed a sort of safety net for each other that society, the medical system, et cetera, doesn't provide.
00:14:19
Speaker
What's interesting is like that happens a few times in a literal sense, right? Where somebody does something for someone else that really makes a difference. And like Tracy, you know, putting in a call or Elizabeth putting in a call or, you know, whatever, something that happens that, you know really helps in a given moment. But then it's also just the emotional safety net. And I think that what we, one of the things we worked on was figuring out how to bring a little bit more of those moments of connection among the women into the piece. They were they were sort of there, but that was one thing that we that we worked on in in editing. um So yeah, it was it was um it was very much a balance, I think, because you have three stories. You want to make sure you're giving them all
00:15:04
Speaker
the weight they need and deserve, while also showing why you're telling three stories together. And so finding those those points of connection and you know really making sure they they land, they feel important.
00:15:17
Speaker
And then, yeah and ultimately you you realize at a certain point you again, you you want everyone to be okay. That's the most important thing. You're like, I just want everyone in this story to be okay. And the question is, will they, with the exception of the one person, you know, who's not okay from the, from the opening of the piece. And then it's like, well, what happened to, to lead to that? It's funny you say challenges and like, there are ah obviously like always challenges, but with a piece like this, especially it was like, everything's here, or I know you have everything that, that we need. And it's figuring out how to make sure we're putting everything in its in its correct place, like in the best, in in the place where it's going to have the most impact. Because I think too, you know, it's a hard piece to read, right? Like it's really intense and you want it to feel...
00:16:09
Speaker
the whole time as if somebody wants to keep reading because there's both the question of what happened, but also you want there to be love and joy and, you know, enough to come through that it feels, it doesn't feel so heavy. It doesn't feel so dark. And I think that's the other thing that Mia does a really lovely job of is, you know, these moments of,
00:16:33
Speaker
joy or beauty, no matter how small. And I think she does particularly the scene where Felicia goes with, Mia goes with Felicia to visit Quentin in the facility that he's in for for quite a while. And just like their interactions sitting there and it's, you you can tell, mia says this, how much they love each other and also how even just like the littlest things can feel like victories.
00:17:02
Speaker
um you know A good day is a victory. And she does a really great job, Mia does a really great job of conveying that those moments of joy. So yeah, so this is all to say it was about balance, right? About knowing what the piece wanted to say, how it wanted to say it, but then like, okay, well, where do we inject these moments of connection, these moments of joy, these moments of revelation, um so that it feels cohesive. Yeah, the problem you can run into with pieces that might come in, you know, full draft on spec is that you're painted into various corners. And so maybe it can be a bit of ah a challenge to rearrange those pieces. To what extent do you like seeing whole drafts versus something that can be more moldable from the early goings?
00:17:50
Speaker
It's a great question. um i never mind seeing a full draft. The way that i always sort of approach a full draft with someone is before I agree to assign it, if I feel like I see potential, if I feel like I see what the atavist version of the story would be, is I kind of tell them, here's what I want to do. Is that OK with you? um like Is that going to work for you? Because I would never assign a piece like, hey, great draft. like Let's get going. And then you get into it and you realize, like oh, our visions are actually just not going to align because you've written this. You're kind of done. like this is what This is what you want it to be. And so like in this case, um I remember I had a call with Mia around Thanksgiving and said, I'd really like to move some of the Ben stuff, Ben material later in the piece. I'd like to show a few more moments of connection among the mothers. Like, how does this sound to you?
00:18:43
Speaker
And we also talked about, you know, this piece in particular is one of those that is really sensitive from a fact checking standpoint. You're going to be you know, talking to people about some of the worst days of their lives and about really, really intimate stuff. And like, how are they going to take to that? um You know, do you think that that they'll be okay with that? You know, any number of things. And so kind of ticking off those boxes of like, can we make this work is always really important with full, full drafts. The problem you're absolutely right with full drafts sometimes is that,
Handling Drafts and Publication Vision
00:19:15
Speaker
again, it's kind of done, right? And somebody says, well, I finished it and this is what it is. um And particularly the Atavist, we have this thing that we do, which is a you know narrative nonfiction specifically. And so it's like, sometimes somebody will turn in a really cool draft that feels like you're kind of giving away the whole story upfront. And like, how do we, it's more of a traditional feature, for instance, um or you know it's more issue-based or,
00:19:44
Speaker
um you know more of a profile, a traditional profile. And i traditionally, I do not mean in a pejorative sense at all, just you know it's different than what we do. And so the question is always, would you be willing to reconfigure it for the Atavis? You know, oftentimes the answer is yes, but sometimes people are like, no, that's not what I'm interested in.
00:20:02
Speaker
Fine, no problem, take it elsewhere. But ah but i never I never ever mind seeing a draft. That being said, i never want people to, because writing is hard. And if you're writing on spec, you're not getting paid and that's hard. And so like, I never want somebody to feel like they have to write a draft for it to be assigned. So like in this case with Mia, you know I said, i totally see potential here. I just can't, it's really hard in the abstract, having never worked with her, not knowing her style, you know any number of things to assign and like hope it works out. right you know It was like, please pitcht pitch somewhere else that you know maybe would would feel more comfortable you know kind of taking a leap on on this kind of essay. And so she she came back to me of her of her own accord.
00:20:47
Speaker
That's all to say, i never I never want people to feel like, well, I guess I got to go write this to see if they actually want it. like That's not the intention. like if If I feel like I can't quite see it without seeing a draft, um you know I'm always going to say, you're welcome to come back, but like please pitch it somewhere else too if you if you want, because the most important thing is getting paid.
00:21:20
Speaker
Sweet.
Introduction to Mary Margaret Alvarado and Her Background
00:21:22
Speaker
Okay, so next we have Mia, who goes by Mary Margaret Alvarado in her byline. She's a multifaceted writer, with her poetry and nonfiction appearing in the Iowa Review, the Kenyan Review, VQR, outside, the the Georgia Review, among other publications. She is the author of the poetry collection, Hey Folly, and the nonfiction chapbook, American Weather. She lives in Colorado.
00:21:48
Speaker
In our chat, we talk about dogged obsessiveness, cold drafts, ambition, trust, reimagining the MFA, and stocking produce. Great stuff.
00:22:00
Speaker
Hope you'll stick around for a parting shot on the bullet train to Bummerville, but for now, here's Mia. Huh.
00:22:20
Speaker
Writers, being the insecure lot that we are, we're always searching for some measure of good advice and good counsel for how it is we go about the work, however we
Mia's Advice and Artistic Influences
00:22:31
Speaker
may do it. So for you, Mia, just what what's some good advice that maybe you've received that's been helpful or just hard-earned advice that you live by that maybe sometimes you offer to someone else who needs it?
00:22:44
Speaker
I mean, um something that's helped me a lot the last, oh gosh, decade now is if you want to be hopeful, do hopeful things. I've i've been using that a lot myself um here in the hard times. Gosh, writing advice.
00:22:58
Speaker
I mean, a certain sort of dogged, dogged obsessiveness seems to help. That's not really... anyone's particular words to me. definitely remember hearing Tobias Wolff speak once and just making the point that many writers make that talent is wonderful and and widely distributed on earth, but sitting down and putting in the hours is is where it's at. Yeah, that's huge to me. um When I've taught writing, i often think more in terms of more tangible art forms. I used to play violin really seriously. I used to pay my rent by throwing pots. So for me, when I'm trying to relay writing advice to other people, I often try to think of more physical art forms that allow you to really sort of know when something is right and working.
00:23:48
Speaker
Throwing pots. What what what is that? I'm missing something that went over my head. Right, right. It sounds like you get to throw them at the wall. America's new sport. That's just what it's called when you throw clay on a pottery wheel. Okay.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah. So mugs and bowls and vases and stuff. Gotcha. But, you know, you know, with clay, it's very easy to tell, oh, I have an air bubble or it's off center. There's a wobble or it's too wet. Kind of the kind of material things that are sort of harder to get at when you're dealing in a more abstract art form. Gotcha. Yeah. Yesterday I was feeling really crummy. So it instead of like doing something maladaptive, which was my, yeah ah my, my go-to thing is just like, well, why didn't get a six pack of strong beer and drown my sorrows? I actually, i actually just like started, it just made a collage of a meeting to make. And so there's some collage therapy. So that tactile thing.
00:24:41
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Good for you. Good. And then you can have a beer, right? Exactly. Have a beer and have some glue and paper and scissors and make something good. Just don't huff the glue. Yeah. There go. And I understand after talking with Sayward that at first you had pitched this story and it was rejected initially.
00:25:03
Speaker
And then you you eventually come back to it with a more fully fleshed out draft. So Just take us back to the conception of the piece and you know how you were thinking of it then, the rejection of it, but then still staying with it.
00:25:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's the only time in my life that I've, I mean, I really don't like the phrase circled back, but circled back to an editor after a rejection. um i I knew that I thought the atavist would be a great place for this essay. And um I had pitched it and Sayward had given me, you know, you get lots of different rejections in life. And it was clearly a very like, open and complimentary one. It was not a closed door. So then...
00:25:45
Speaker
I actually, i I got completely and totally stuck on the essay. I didn't look at it for a year. And then i saw a deadline for a long form contest, which I didn't actually end up entering, but it it it motivated me to just finish it. I finished it and then I pitched it to her and then she took it pretty quickly. Second time around.
00:26:03
Speaker
My husband doesn't usually use this word, but he said that was ballsy to like... ah cut Go back to a
Revisiting the Rejected Story and AI Pitch Impact
00:26:10
Speaker
rejection. But yeah, a lot of it was figuring out some difficulties around characterization, basically, is the sort of short version of it.
00:26:18
Speaker
the the The fact that a contest made you, it stirred up the leaves for you to go back to it again. that's That's happened to me before as well, where I had this thing that um it just, it couldn't land it anywhere. And then like there was a contest call and, you know, and I submitted it to that or whatever. ah But it just goes to show the degree of,
00:26:39
Speaker
how there's really never a wasted word, how maybe a thing that you're working on, am might just not be the right time for it yet. And so there's there's like, ah there's really a lesson to be learned there of just like, yeah, just maybe it's not yet for this thing. Don't don't waste it.
00:26:56
Speaker
Oh, timing is huge. And i I love, it's hard to do, but I love when a draft gets so cold that I can read it like it's not my own work. um And it it had had gotten that cold. So um then I could be perhaps bolder in my revisions.
00:27:13
Speaker
So... Yeah. Yeah. I love the idea of, uh, you have letting it get, yeah, truly letting it get cold, you know, cold to the touch, to the point, point to your point of not almost not recognizing it. Cause you're like, Oh wow. yeah But there is some little glimmer of like who you were at that, at that point, like, Oh, I can still see me in that thing, but, uh, maybe I'm a little bit better. or I did a little more research or, you know, you can come at it fresh, but it's ah a bit more developed. So maybe the lift doesn't feel as heavy.
00:27:40
Speaker
Yeah, and I used to do that. um I write different genres, and when I was writing poetry a lot, I used to physically cut out poems I was stuck on, and I had more time in my life at this point. but um And I'd put them in other people's books of poems so that i so that I'd happen upon them um like they weren't my own writing. So all kinds of ways of sort of tricking yourself into bold revision, yeah. And what do you remember about your initial pitch to The Atavist for the story?
00:28:11
Speaker
um You know, it was just kind of a classic pitch of like, here's, you know, three quick paragraphs. um What's the whole story distilled? Who am I? Why does it matter?
00:28:23
Speaker
And it's, yeah, it was a good pitch. It was a good pitch. And I did i didn't pitch it that widely, but yeah. Yeah. Sayward did say to the second time around that she has started getting a lot of um pitches from bots and AI made pitches. Yeah. So she was, um she'd been a little bit slogged down just trying to weed through like what is actually human made work. um So, well, you you talk about dogged obsessiveness, and I imagine that that was part of your your animating force to pursue the story. You know, you have a ah personal tether to the story as well. So, you know, what was the obsessiveness that made you be like, you know, what this is a story um that I just I need to write. I need to see through.
00:29:11
Speaker
Yeah, this was a little different for me than other writing. I mean, I'm obsessive about writing, period, and I i don't know how anyone um writes unless it's internally motivating for that person. um I don't know how you could sustain it otherwise. But actually, Tracy originally asked me to write the story, and I just thought,
00:29:30
Speaker
Oh my God, she's, you know, been through hell. Like if I agree to this, I can't not do it. So there was a really deep ethical commitment. Once people trust you with those um intimacies to to bring it to life. um yeah so Yeah. So you are in touch with Tracy to start ah doing the research and the reporting. So like how do you you start building out from there? So it's not it ends up not being about one person, but this triumvirate of women dealing, and of mothers dealing you know with this ah severe mental health you know issue at the core of it.
00:30:09
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't want anything so on the nose in the actual essay, but when I was first conceiving of it, it was just kind of uncanny. um Three kids all um welcomed as sons, you know same part of the world with very different you know two blended families, black and white, queer and straight.
00:30:30
Speaker
people who are more enfranchised, people who are coming into enfranchisement. It was just in terms of kind of factors to sort of illuminate this one question. it' It was uncanny. And you do see, I mean, Rob Reiner's family has been in the press recently that schizophrenia is such a difficult condition for folks and for caretakers that even in the highest levels of wealth and access, it it it can be devastating. So I was thinking about all those things. And then actually I was, i tend to be the sort of writer who, when I'm not kind of doing front burner on one project, I i have, I usually have multiple projects working that I'm working on. So I was actually, i was actually on submission with my novel and I just threw myself into interviewing because it was a wonderful way to like,
00:31:19
Speaker
i I go back to nonfiction the most often of different genres because it's the most workmanlike to me. And i can just like I can just put in the hours and then it gets done. So I just interviewed and interviewed and interviewed. And I probably have, oh, 12 times the material than what's in the essay.
00:31:36
Speaker
um There's stories upon stories. So this was certainly the kind of craft work that, among other things, was just sort of asking what should be included. Yeah, what is the the calculus you're undergoing to yeah make those decisions about what stays in and what has to get cut, even if the stuff that gets cut is pretty rich?
00:31:56
Speaker
Yeah, um well, some of it was ethical with this story. People told me some, you know, there's very hard things in the story. People told me some things that were so intimate that I knew they would not want them printed. So I was being careful to protect...
00:32:16
Speaker
folks was part of it. And then of course, I'm just trying to write third person nonfiction. I love that the atavist describes it as a kind of filmic nonfiction. um And if you think of writers like Adrienne Nicole LeBlanc, you know, it's it's very much informed by the conventions of fiction of like, what is the telling detail?
00:32:35
Speaker
So if I have 10 details, what are the one or two that really bring into relief this moment or this question or um That sort of thing. Yeah. And given that the the topic that you're covering here is is so sensitive, you know how did you approach the reporting and the interviewing of your central figures you know so you handled that delicately?
00:33:01
Speaker
Well, you know, we built relationships over time. Obviously, my sister, I know her well. And actually, interestingly enough, she's been in another long form essay I wrote. So she's already had the experience of being fact checked and things. So that was easy with her. And she and I have a kind of funny dynamic where it's beautiful. She trusts me with her stories just because I i do like obsessively catalog and notice things. So sometimes she'll ask me things like from the past. In terms of Felicia and Tracy...
00:33:31
Speaker
You know, they're now friends. I just babysat Felicia's grandkids a weekend ago. So it was just cumulative and and and interviewing them in different places, in different settings, in their homes, in the cars, workplaces, hanging out with them ah in certain spots. What is the challenge, you know, be it for this piece or others, of building trust with, you know, the people who are integral to your stories that you're reporting on?
00:33:57
Speaker
Well, I try to be very trustworthy. i probably err more on the side of transparency than editors would say you should. You know, I have an MFA and I have broken ranks with some writers I love who think In nonfiction, you you can fabricate or invent to to make this story work. And i I disagree with that. I think when you're writing someone's life, you have to you have to have a real humility and an allegiance to what is.
00:34:30
Speaker
I do that. and And regarding some of the sort of difficult things that I that i didn't write, I told people. um i'm I'm not writing that. I showed them a lot, you know, to the point that it maybe made it way more hard, more difficult for me, but I showed them things. Yeah, so I just, I try to be trustworthy. I try to be just a good friend generally and the sort of person that keeps confidences.
00:34:52
Speaker
um Yeah. Yeah, I remember yeah several years ago now that that book Lifespan of a Fact came out. Yeah. And it was, just you know, the writer would just be like to him, yeah whatever the height of the building, you know, the whatever the footage was, it didn't roll off the tongue the way he was. He just like made up a number that sounded better on the page or on the ear. And it's just like for some people be like, who cares?
00:35:17
Speaker
But but I care. I care if it's like 1341 feet. I don't care how much it rolls off your tongue. I want that that concrete fact that matters to me. And it sounds like something like that matters to you, too. That's a liberty that you're not willing to take.
00:35:31
Speaker
Yeah, it really matters to me. And I get that genre is like an invention and it's historically specific and this, that and the other. But I mean, I think we're actually seeing the fallout of fabricating in our democracy. And I don't think you should do it. If you want to dream a story that's inspired by life, great. There's the whole world of fiction, including auto fiction. And there's a real case for that. And I love it. But yeah, if I'm going to write about the death of someone's child, and and I've seen people fabricate things that are as serious as that, it doesn't matter if it seems better if I set it in this place or this season or something. i don't You don't get to do that as my advice. Yeah, it seemed very disrespectful to the people that at the core of the story. be Like, you know what, this doesn't quite feel artistic enough, so i'm gonna fabricate, you you know, maybe you're dessing a little bit. You know, your your name doesn't roll off. I'm gonna just, like, change the the syllabic nature of someone's name or something. Changing names is one thing for privacy things. Like, that, that I think, is fair game, especially if you don't have certain people's permission. And you want to use a pseudonym like that's I think that's fair game. But yeah, to to your point, like if you're just going to fudge the facts because it sounds more artistic, like you're just spitting in the face of the people who entrusted you with their story.
00:36:51
Speaker
Right. And I always find it like moving and humbling to work with a fact checker. um i used to work for Harper's right out of college and I worked on the index. So I I learned a certain sort of fact checking there.
00:37:06
Speaker
But it's always like moving and humbling that you think you've got something pinned down and you're like, actually, that was correct three years ago and no longer is I find that kind of beautiful. And to me, it's also a formal restraint. And in writing, I love formal restraints. I find that pushing against them, whatever the genre, it's creatively generative for me. So in nonfiction, facts can be that. And I love that you you've brought up the the fact check a couple times. And I and i wanted to get your ah your experience of, especially with this piece, because you're you're bringing up very you know raw, you know emotive moments with with ah your key sources.
00:37:47
Speaker
And that's kind of picking at the scab you know once or twice or several times, just you and them. And then they're subjected to a fact check on top of that. So just how are you thinking about that and even telling them, be like, yeah, you're telling me this again and it's going to come back around and to you. and to you Yeah. I mean, I think in all honesty, it was ah re-traumatizing. i don't use that lightly. But so Tracy, and she would be fine with me sharing this, she asked me to write it and then, and she's pleased with it now. But I think somewhere in the middle of it, when I was going over questions again, and then she was talking to the fact checker, I think it was just like, this is too much. I need to stop thinking about this. And then she dug into her own
00:38:31
Speaker
I mean, archives is maybe too formal of a word, but things she'd forgotten about on her phone and and her email and, you know, all this stuff came back. And I think it's very normal with great loss and grief to kind of build a little wall in your head. And and she had done that. So to go back there was...
00:38:49
Speaker
painful. it's been It's been painful for all of them. i did, you know, I was so proud of Felicia the first time, and this is very tender, of course, the first time she talked about what happened to her as a child, she used the euphemism sexual assault, which is customary in reporting. And then part of her own healing work was saying rape, it was rape. um And I ran that by her a couple of times, which obviously is a painful thing to run by someone. And she said, that's, I wanna tell the truth. And part of this kind of beautiful movement of the shame is not on me.
00:39:25
Speaker
Yeah, so it was hard, but I think everyone feels better if they know like we're gonna be really truthful and accurate and careful. And when I was talking with Sayward, she was particularly struck by how you were able to reconstruct scenes of which you weren't there to like witness firsthand. So for a lot of people out there who might not have that the first hand on the ground reporting, how best can people reconstruct scenes so they are vivid, even if we're not there to physically witness something?
00:40:00
Speaker
Yeah. So I used you know a full gamut of tools and and and two of the Quentin and Luke, I've spent a lot of time with Luke, obviously, and Quentin as well. But yes, I never met Ben Nassim. So it helped a lot that Tracy has a ah ton of material, all the bills, all the photos, all the internet footprint, the film on her phone. And then I just spoke to her over and over again. Yeah, and and just what I was saying earlier, I was trying to use a storyteller's tools, right?
00:40:34
Speaker
as in fiction, how to how to make a scene. But there's you know there's worlds upon worlds of this story. I didn't interview. i kept it so focused on the mothers that a number of siblings I didn't interview, you know there would have been a whole other way to tell the story that's like, what was your perception of what was happening in the basement that day? um So it it helped me too to have this focus on the mothers. What becomes the the ethical quandary of reporting on you know mental illness and people with mental illness?
00:41:07
Speaker
Yes, I think the dictum, Nothing About Us Without Us is huge. It's from the disability rights movement. um I think Esme Wei-Zhun Wang's book is the most beautiful example of that in schizophrenia that I've read recently. And I read a lot of books about schizophrenia and that were very much in the background of my thinking about this.
00:41:24
Speaker
I think that dictum also applies to caretakers who are living it. And the the the clearest example is with this... condition of not knowing you're ill while you're ill, because there is a real tension within the world of doing mental health holds about should this person have freedom and autonomy?
00:41:43
Speaker
You know, she says she doesn't want to be held. Should we respect that? um And then, you know, parents and caretakers who are saying this person doesn't know time or place and and needs an intervention. And I will say, and I didn't write about this in the essay, but I've had very serious depression in my life and I've i've had suicidal depression. And I would say, I've actually said this to my husband and i'm I'm saying this now because I don't think there should be any shame about all of this either. that were I to be in that place ever again, a ah bare minimum act of like caretaking for me that I would want is for other people to make decisions on my behalf.
00:42:21
Speaker
So my own experience of that certainly informs my writing. Sure. And that that that ah not knowing you're ill while you're ill, isn't isn't the name for that? Is it like anas... You know what I'm saying. Anasignosia, yeah. Can you pronounce it for me? Well, I mean, I always go with the fast and with confidence. I've heard people say it other ways, but anasignosia is the most... Yeah. Yeah. So, ah yeah, there's a whole I coincidentally was copy editing a book for ah a client about as a prescriptive memoir that had a hurt her son died by suicide and profound mental illness. And this word was very much key. This ah ambiguous loss and this ah that condition of. not knowing you're ill when you're ill and that the degree to which people can be, let's say, safely institutionalized or locked up in jail and all these sort of weird, murky territory of trying to get people the protection and the care they need. But the system is such that it doesn't allow for it. It's really it's really tricky and and so hard on the caretakers.
00:43:32
Speaker
So hard on the caretakers. I mean, there's a lot of divorce. There's a lot of comorbidities for caretakers. There's a lot of illness. Yeah, it it really exacts the toll. And you're you're right to bring up the prison system. I actually teach in prison now. And that is, of course, the largest mental health care system we have in the United States. If you just think in terms of numbers and service, but which of course it should not be.
00:43:58
Speaker
Yeah. It's a big question. Yeah. And there's ah a moment in the piece too, where you, you know, you, you write and it's kind of a bigger graph, but this also, Kind of just lay out the the privilege that ah that more or less it was pretty much like you know your sister's family was operating under it. And then you were like, now imagine trying to get care for a child with serious mental illness. If you have a job with no pay time off, if you're intimidated by doctors, live in your car, don't speak English, or if you're just too damn tired. And yeah here you see like ah if the conditions are perfect, it's hard.
00:44:33
Speaker
ah But what if, you know, that that laundry list of concerns, yeah any one of those would make it almost, you know, it's just incredibly difficult, exponentially difficult to care for people. And you can see how people will fall, maybe fall by the wayside.
00:44:48
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. And that list actually was something that got edited. It was much longer, but um yeah, i was real I was really on a roll. um But yeah, I love this adage from um Peter Morin, which is like a world where it's easier for people to be good and Dorothy Day. and And I love thinking about that. Like, how could we design? What could public policy look like? What would the whole world look like if we just made it easier for people to be good?
00:45:13
Speaker
And, you know, it's across the board in our society. Like you think of the number of women who give birth and they work at a place like Walmart and they have to be back. Mm-hmm. They have to be back. they don't have they don't have They don't have leave. Yeah, that was one of the things that motivated me to write the essay was I remember my sister and a dear old friend and my sister's husband sitting at our kitchen table.
00:45:35
Speaker
And I was shocked, but I was just trying to be a good sister right then. But they were they were trying to come to terms with our son is going to be on the streets And we're going to lose him that way because that's where they were. And I didn't include that in the essay, um but that's where they were. And I remember thinking, yeah, my brother's a psychiatrist. They have, you know, they have help upon help upon help. And that's where they were.
00:45:58
Speaker
So it's very humbling. Yeah. And there's ah an element too, to the piece where you write schizophrenia is an illness of gating. Yeah, I mean, I always wish there was like a Susan Sontag type figure writing about, i have kind of a hazy idea about, you know, the way we live now is is is um kind of textbook mental illness.
00:46:22
Speaker
If you look at older versions of the DSM and things, because Our entire culture does not really allow for gating in terms of attentive focus. And then you know things that would have been understood as breaks with reality, even not a whole generation ago, just half a generation ago, like my phone is listening to me.
00:46:43
Speaker
That would have been an absolute textbook break with reality. and our phones are listening to us. So there's some kind of huge question there about, which I think is also always true with illness. you know People who think about illness will sometimes say, oh, a society has the illness and certain people manifest it.
00:47:00
Speaker
I wonder about that with gating, but more specifically to your question. Yeah, it's like, imagine you're in a restaurant and there's 200 people there.
00:47:12
Speaker
you're probably able to focus on the person at the table with you. And then when the waiter comes, you shift your focus to the waiter. And then when your phone rings, you shift your focus to your phone back and forth with ease. So for um my nephew, before he was treated, it was all on the same volume.
00:47:32
Speaker
plus the louder volume of what's happening in your head. So imagine, exhausting, right? Yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah, that that really, i think, grounds it for people who maybe it's very ah you know abstract, like, oh, what could that possibly be like? But if you can imagine all that stimuli coupled with maybe the thing that's the loudest, which is in the head as well, that can be a total nightmare. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it makes it you realize you're an absolute hero to get up and like get dressed if the whole time you have just this nonstop barrage of noise, often very hateful noise. So yes, the smallest things suddenly seem very heroic.
00:48:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I always love getting a sense of and you know the the writing itself. And the you know for someone who works in different genres as well, you know what's the you know the practice by which that you're writing and ah attacking a piece of work ah that ah they that you need to get you need to get words done? you know what What do you like to have in place so you can get that done?
00:48:35
Speaker
Sure. um One thing that helps me a lot is I write in an old, it was like a chicken coop from the 1920s. It's in my alley and it helps me physically to walk out the gate. And then I actually can't access the internet there. So, um,
00:48:50
Speaker
Like when I'm working well, I draft there. It's a little deprivation chamber. And then I'm just a real, it's it's it's probably not at all the most efficient way to write, but I'm a real sentence by sentence person, which also makes it hard when I need to be edited a lot.
00:49:07
Speaker
And I really write by ear. i did I usually don't take residencies in part because I have small children at home, but I did um go to Silver City, New Mexico a fall, two falls ago, um to the Power and Light residency, which was great. And I did do a big full draft of this there. Then I set it aside for a year. And what do you or what do you identify as something that you that you struggle with when you sit down to write?
00:49:34
Speaker
Oh, I'm glad you focused it just on writing, not just but not just generally. ah Let's see. ah When I sit down to write, what do I struggle with? I don't struggle with the lack of ideas to the point that it's maybe the opposite struggle that I have to...
00:49:51
Speaker
pare down and and focus and eliminate things. ah My own organization makes a lot of sense to me, but you know when I'm working with a whole team like I did on this, I uploaded everything I had to you know the cloud everyone could see it. But I am aware that other people would do more um obvious to other people forms of organization, and that would probably make life easier.
00:50:15
Speaker
Yeah. And I do definitely struggle with the business side of writing for sure. That's probably my biggest struggle actually. Yeah. Yeah. The the business side of it is, is so, yeah. Talk about a, an ugly ball of yarn to untangle for a lot of people. It's like pieces that you might get to write for the atavist, but then there's like a, maybe all this other kind of weird contract work or like a teaching gig here. It's like how writers cobble together. like, I don't know how, how you do it.
00:50:44
Speaker
I don't either. And I don't actually know that anybody knows, including all the people who are doing it, which, you know, there's some comfort there. So, yeah. Well, what, you know, it's kind of a, it's a little spur that make that coming off of just that little, ah that little exchange is this kind of notion of ambition and maybe what success looked like 10 or 15 years ago and maybe how you're defining it now. So like for you, how do you, you know, wrestle with yeah the ambitions that you want as a writer and maybe what success looked like, you know, a decade ago versus how you view what it is now.
00:51:18
Speaker
Yeah. um I mean, I think it's a huge loss for the literary world that there aren't more just wage earning jobs. You know, what happened with The Washington Post, of course, is a recent awful example of that. um And I share the worry of many people that you then lose a lot of, for example, working class voices.
00:51:38
Speaker
You know, one way that I have figured that in my own life is I've always privileged time over money. So we live pretty simply. yeah And I, I will all, I mean, I think that's a classic artist preference. um For me, it's huge.
00:51:52
Speaker
What else? I don't think too much. It helps. It doesn't help me that much. Like part of why I didn't like having um a book on submission with like big five places and stuff was, I don't like thinking too much about all of that stuff, but when I'm in the work, it's good. So it it feels best to me to be deeply in the work and somewhat detached from the outcome of it. Yeah, the outcome aspect of it is we're so attached to it, but that is so out of our control too. Like be it awards or grants or all these other metrics out there that we see on social media that we see other people seem to be like unilaterally crushing it. And then here we are, you know, just, you know, miring in our own mud. And we just like it ends up making us feel so shitty about ourselves. And it makes it harder to do the work when we're like focusing or getting bombarded by everything else. It's just a yeah. How do you wall yourself off from that if you can at all?
00:52:52
Speaker
that's That's a good question. um Yeah, and I certainly, um i know a full gamut of writers and, and um you know, like got I got my MFA at Iowa once upon a time. So I know everybody from people who are like stone cold geniuses that no one's ever heard of, you know, and they're working like janitorial jobs at the Seattle Public Library or something and you're like,
00:53:12
Speaker
Oh, what a loss that we don't have that book. And I know people who've been extremely savvy and had like perfect timing and have won, you know, all the beautiful awards. So there's like some like, um peace and kind of humility in just realizing, yes, a lot of it is out of anyone's control. And then um how do I deal with that? That's your question? Yeah.
00:53:36
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, for me, like preserving interior quiet is huge ah for writing, and i and I try to do that. And then I was raised like with an idea more of like one's vocation than one's profession, and that is liberating to me because it's not about... It's not really about ego. It's not necessarily about a lot of different things that we use as markers. It's more just like everybody has the work that is theirs to do. um and And we all are more truly ourselves and therefore happier, among other things, if we're doing the work that is ours to do.
00:54:13
Speaker
Yeah. And then also you don't have to feel like when you do ring the bell, you don't have to feel proud either. It's just like, oh, I'm just doing the work that's mine to do. Yeah. I'll never forget. This would have been 2016 or so. And so my my first book came out in 2011 or whatever that I'm just kind of setting the conditions of this little meandering anecdote. But I was ah working at a so I had this book come out and I'd have whatever publishing credits I had at the time. And so whatever you seem you're like you're on a certain track. And I've had any number of menial day jobs to help subsidize my writing habit over the years. And so, you know, I'm at that time like stocking produce at ah Whole Foods areas like, you know, Narrative journalist and all this thing, MFA, college degree, here I am stacking apples and shit like that. And I ran into someone who had like a friend I hadn't seen in a long time, you know, who had, ah yeah he bought you know, he bought my first book. He was like, I'm so excited. And then I like I see him. We make eye contact as I'm pushing the produce cart. And I just, I'll never forget the kind of look on his face. Like for one, he almost didn't recognize me. And then it's like, once he recognized me, I could almost see this look of pity on his yeah face. And I was just like, yeah and I could feel it too. I'm like, yeah, yeah here, here I am. Like,
00:55:35
Speaker
stacking this stacking this produce and and anything. It was just such a weird, awkward feeling. And you're bringing up like maybe this this person who's a janitor at ah ah at a library who has the chops, but they're here they are doing this thing. And a few years ago, the...
00:55:50
Speaker
Blinking on the actor's name who was on the Cosby show, but like he was shamed for working at Trader Joe's like during a season where he wasn't getting a lot of work. And people were like, whoa, what a loser this guy is for being at Trader Joe's after having been on this massive hit in the 80s. He's just like, well, no, this is just like how I patch in the holes between jobs. And it's just like, yeah.
00:56:12
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think writers, it's it's always comforting to talk to other writers too, because you said you were stacking apples and I immediately had like the image and I immediately thought, oh, cool. Access to a whole world that I don't know about. and like what short story is going to come out of that or what essay or like what's the weird...
00:56:31
Speaker
economy of like where they get those cool fish at Whole Foods. You know, I just think of it as material. Yeah. But yes, I mean, we have a number of friends who are attorneys. And to me, that's always the like a very striking contrast, because within that world, if you do the work, and you're good at it, you just keep rising and rising. And next thing they know, you know, they're giving you country club memberships, and you're very rich. But yeah, it's not that way for writers. But how wonderful to go through the whole world where everything's material.
00:57:01
Speaker
And also, I mean, if they were knocking him for working at Trader Joe's, I just, you know, we, we are like ruled by all these crooks right now who couldn't work an honest job to save their lives. And I'm like,
00:57:13
Speaker
That's an honest job. And like getting people groceries is an honorable thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. And I like talking about this, too, because I think there are legions of writers out there who feel shame that they might have maybe just a ah day job or an hourly wage job. That is certainly not something that they're proud of or tweeting about. And it makes them feel less than that their vocation isn't the thing that's paying the bills in a way that is satisfactory that we can say yes like my writing is paying my bills.
00:57:43
Speaker
Think another another landscaping gig I had I remember during my lunch break I was like doing reporting calls like for a feature I was writing. It's just one of these things like you make it work if it's something you desperately want to or need to do And, you know, if you have this other job that's not in any way related to the thing, maybe to your point, it's all material in some capacity. And it's making you interface with the world in a way that writers writers need to interface with the world. And what better way to maybe do that than like a grocery store or some retail position?
00:58:15
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I, I kind of think the whole MFA system should be re-imagined and there should be a lot more MFA's where you end and you have like an electrician's license in addition to MFA or like a plumber's license. And because I love to teach and I've taught many different places and I've definitely been academia adjacent, like a ton of artists, but I do think there's probably a loss too, that we don't have more landscapers writing. And we don't have more grocery stalkers writing. Yeah. well Well, Mia, this is is so great to i have this you know really kind of wide-ranging conversation about ah about what it means to go about the work and this wonderful piece you did for The Atavist. Thank you. And as I bring these conversations down for a landing, always just love asking the guests, you in this case, for a fun recommendation for the listeners. And that's just anything you're excited about that you want to share with the listeners that might bring them a little modicum of joy in their lives.
00:59:09
Speaker
Oh, sure. um Sweet potatoes. ah The fiction of Miriam Tevs, the fiction of Lucia Berlin, Dairy Girls, the show, um Night of the Hunter, that's like such a film for our day, um Hanging Around Children,
00:59:25
Speaker
Hanging around inmates. I'm loving hanging around the inmates. I know that's a good, that's a good bunch, right? Oh, fantastic. Awesome. And yeah, that's wonderful. So yeah, this piece for the atavis is incredible. And I'm so glad that people have already gotten a chance to read it. And I hope far more will pick it up and, and i'll learn a thing or two. So thank you so much, Mia, for the, for the work and for coming on the show.
00:59:45
Speaker
Thank you. And thank you for what you do.
00:59:53
Speaker
Awesome. Thanks to me and Sayward for coming on the show. Always fun to have these Atavistian pods. They have a different flavor. Good flavor. A good one.
01:00:04
Speaker
Be sure to visit magazine.atavist.com to check out Mia's story and consider subscribing. I pay. It's only $25 a year. I don't get kickbacks or a comp subscription. I'm of the people, man.
01:00:16
Speaker
Thanks to the Power of Narrative Conference for promotional support. Don't forget to use that Narrative 20 code at checkout for a discount on your tuition. Visit combeyond.bu.edu to learn more.
01:00:28
Speaker
For more information about the CNF pod expanded universe, head over to brendanomero.com. Hey, hey, follow on Instagram at creative nonfictionpodcast. And maybe you'll join Pitch Club to learn how to write and sell better pitches.
01:00:43
Speaker
Alright, this parting shot, I might turn this into a vlog for the YouTubes, This O-American Life. Get it? um I only submitted the frontrunner to one a award, mainly because that shit gets expensive. I had to submit three hardback copies of the book, plus $50 for the Oregon Book Award.
01:01:07
Speaker
I think it was three. It could have been up to five, but I think it was three copies. You know, that from my stash, of course. I don't even know what awards are available for sports biographies or biographies in general, so I didn't submit anywhere else. If you think your publisher will do this, they won't.
01:01:25
Speaker
you know, their job is to publish the book. Full stop. Maybe you can ask, but I figured that would have been silly. Anyway, I know that Literary Arts in Portland received my submission because I got a receipt thanking me for my payment. Whether they read the books or not i Don't know. guess you just have to trust them, which I don't, but whatever. And given my book's topic, you know, the magnitude of its anniversary, the 50th anniversary of Steve Prefontaine's death, and the fact that it is such an Oregon book, I felt confident that I'd be a finalist in general nonfiction.
01:02:01
Speaker
It's such an Oregon book and an Oregon story. um And the subject matter of the book doesn't have to be Oregonian nature ah to be a eligible for the Oregon Book Award. It just has to be an Oregonian author. So I got wind through someone on Instagram that the finalists were announced, and the frontrunner did not make the cut.
01:02:26
Speaker
I was gutted. like I'm not going lie. I was gutted. I boarded the bullet train to Bummerville, man. I wanted to get shit-faced. But instead I made a collage. you know and There's growth there, I guess. Still gutted, though.
01:02:43
Speaker
Listen, I understand as well as anybody that awards are largely bullshit and political. The wise Ron Swanson said as much in Parks and Recreation. We shouldn't give a shit about them at all.
01:02:56
Speaker
But we'd be lying if we said we didn't. yeah know We want to be seen. We want our work to matter to the gatekeepers. We want to be able to show off to our larger communities that yes, we have worthiness that is seen by others and deemed by others to be worthy.
01:03:12
Speaker
Mainly because there's so little gold at the end of the rainbow. Just getting some measure of recognition makes all the pain and waiting and longing feel worth it. you know Few of us are going to sell thousands of copies and shoot up bestseller lists and have prominent writers and influencer types share photos of our books to their Instagram stories.
01:03:34
Speaker
yeah These little grace notes of status that we can reshare.
01:03:40
Speaker
It's an outcome-driven thing, and damn it, we want good outcomes. yeah We can pay lip service to the journey being the reward, and to stay sane, it kind of has to be.
01:03:51
Speaker
But we want to be recognized and lauded. and We want the trophy because we sink so much into these damn things. It's like the damn Olympics. You train for four years for this two-week window.
01:04:03
Speaker
you know That's not unlike book writing, and few of us are ever going to meddle. But I suppose getting there is a win in and of itself. And I'll never forget this anecdote from Amy Poehler's book, Yes, Please.
01:04:16
Speaker
They expected to win an Emmy for Parks and Recreation for this particular season, and they didn't. yeah they were they They were gutted too. But Michael Shore, the brilliant Michael Shore, showrunner, executive producer, blah, blah, blah, turned that energy and bitterness and guttedness into the writings.
01:04:39
Speaker
and wrote Ben and Leslie's proposal scene for the following season. And it's a magical moment in the series. He turned his disappointment into a tailwind and controlled what he can control.
01:04:53
Speaker
And that's really the lesson. You know, these things matter, but they don't. They're nice. But hinging our expectations and our worth on these results-driven metrics, these subjective kind of metrics, will drive us insane. There are factors at play that make no sense to us, that we're in the dark about.
01:05:17
Speaker
I mean, hell, I don't even know if the judges you know read my book. I don't even know if they received the book. But i like I said, i know they were happy to take my credit card payment. But I will say one thing.
01:05:29
Speaker
Omar El Akkad, the author of One Day Everyone Will Have Been Against This, who lives in Oregon, who won the National Book Award, was not named a finalist for the Oregon Book Award.
01:05:46
Speaker
Maybe he didn't submit, but i ah I'll assume he he did because he's won it before for fiction. And if the guy who won the kind of biggest book award in the country couldn't be a finalist in Oregon, I'll tell you what, it made me feel a whole lot better.
01:06:07
Speaker
So stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do interviews, see ya.