Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 514: Tony Rehagen is Never and Always on the Clock
520 Plays3 days ago
"Come to editors with solutions, not with problems. A lot of young freelance writers will be like, 'Hey, hook me up with this editor. Do this and do that.' And I'm like, 'I can connect you, but you better have pitches. If you don't come with the idea you're just a problem,'" says Tony Rehagen, a long-time freelance writer.
Seth Wickersham put me in touch with a colleague of his, someone he went to grad school with by the name of Tony Rehagen. Now, he’s a special kind of freelancer in that he’s a grinder. Much like Pete Croatto and other freelancer types who are balancing all kinds of work: content work, copy writing, alumni magazine work, and pure journalism, Tony has been in the thick of the freelance morass for a long, long time. He was featured in the 2015 anthology “Next Wave” for his piece called The Last Trawlers, a work of journalism that really reads like a short story.
His work has appeared in myriad places like Indianapolis Monthly, Atlanta Magazine, Men's Journal, and Bloomberg.
Tony was a blast … there are too many great nuggets from this conversation to list out, but I’ll list out a few. We talk about:
- His filing system for stories
- How many stories he’s working at a time
- Being on the clock and off the clock all the time
- Treating his writing as a service or a trade like plumbing or carpentry
- Treating editors more like clients
- Taking risks with how much skin he puts into a certain story
- And where his ambitions lie now.
- And that just scratches the surface.
Promotional support: The 2026 Power of Narrative Conference. Use narrative20 at checkout for 20% off your tuition. Visit combeyond.bu.edu.
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, before you skip ahead of my well-thought-out intro, let me dollop you with a bit of gratitude for choosing to hang with this podcast and by extension, your boy, B.O.
00:00:12
Speaker
Thank you. I never take it for granted. ACN Everest's podcast shares a promotional sponsorship with the 2026 Power of Narrative Conference taking place March 27th to March 28th in lovely Boston, Massachusetts.
00:00:27
Speaker
This year's keynote speakers include Ken Burns, Patrick Radden-Keefe, Angela Patton and Natalie Ray, Sarah Stillman Asma Khalid. Oh, my God. There's a handful of CNF pod alums on the total roster, and Patrick Radden-Keefe's been on the podcast before. Episode two something. I don't know. Go find it.
00:00:45
Speaker
If you use the promo code narrative 20 at checkout, you get 20% off your fee. that's That's some serious chatter. Visit combeyond.bu.edu to register.
00:00:59
Speaker
Repairing, restoring, reconnecting through storytelling. And no, I don't get commissions or kickbacks, so I'm not gonna, I'm not in it for the money, man. And if you don't like me and you don't want me getting kickbacks, just know that it's not even happening.
Connecting Listeners with Opportunities
00:01:13
Speaker
It's not a thing.
00:01:14
Speaker
So go do it. Go do it. I can connect you, but you better have pitches. If you don't come with the idea, you're just a problem.
Tony Rahagen's Freelance Journey
00:01:28
Speaker
So, Seth Rickersham put me in touch with a colleague of his, someone went to grad school with, by the name of Tony Rahagen. Now he's a special kind of freelancer in that he's a grinder.
00:01:39
Speaker
Much like Pete Croato or Jen A. Miller, though Jen would probably bristle at being called a grinder. and other freelancer types who are balancing all kinds of work, you know, content work, copywriting, alumni magazine work, and pure journalism.
00:01:53
Speaker
Tony's been in the thick of the freelance morass for a long, long time. He was featured in the 2015 anthology Next Wave for his piece called The Last Trawlers, a work of narrative journalism that really reads like a short story. It's amazing.
00:02:08
Speaker
His work has appeared in myriad places like Indianapolis Monthly, Atlanta Magazine, Men's Journal, Bloomberg. More on what you'll learn in a moment. As you know, show notes to this episode and more can be found at brendanamera.com.
Introducing Pitch Club and Supporters
00:02:21
Speaker
Hey, you may elect to subscribe to the wildly popular Substack Pitch Club, where I invite primarily writers to share a winning pitch or query and have them audio annotate their reasoning throughout. So you read a little, you listen a little, and you learn a lot.
00:02:35
Speaker
Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. I might footnote out the audio segments. In case you can't listen, you can read the text.
00:02:46
Speaker
I don't know. I aim to serve, even if it kills me. Oh, we got three new patrons over at patreon.com slash cnfpod. I want to give them a shout out. Big thanks to Lindsey Street, Shawna Kenny, and Wyatt Massey. Thanks so much for the extra bit of support. It's amazing.
Navigating Freelance Journalism
00:03:05
Speaker
Tony was a blast. There are too many great nuggets from this conversation to list out, but I'll list a few nevertheless. You know we talk about his filing system for stories, how many stories he's working on at a time, being on the clock and off the clock all the time, treating his stories as a service or a trade, like plumbing or carpentry, treating editors more like clients, taking risks and how much skin he puts into a certain story and where his ambitions lie now.
00:03:35
Speaker
And that just scratches the surface. You're going get an actual parting shot this week on progress versus productivity. But for now, it's high time we queue up the montage and get on with it. Rip.
00:03:54
Speaker
But when that's on my plate, you know, then it's the fear of the deadline. I work backwards from deadlines. it's not fucking personal, but it feels so personal. I am effing done. This is going have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:04:19
Speaker
When Seth put us in touch, he was like, oh, you really need to talk to Tony because he's someone who has been able to really sustain a freelance journalism career. At what point did you really you know lean into the freelancing element of it and then we'll get into you know how how you the nuts and bolts of how you sustain it. Sure, sure. Well, basically, ah you said lean into i was kind of pushed into. um It's one of those things, you know, like I worked at ah Indianapolis Monthly um as a an editor. um And then, you know, as as the stories kind of got out there, an editor at Men's Health just reached out was like, hey, would you like to freelance some on the side? I'm like, oh, that's cool. And of course, you know, at the time, National Magazine, like $2 a word, that whole thing. So I'm like, yeah, of course, I'll do that. And so
00:05:02
Speaker
That's when it kind of got on my radar that, hey, this is kind of a thing. And if I could string these things together, it could be a career. But that means it was 10 years before I actually made good on that. I moved down to Atlanta to do a similar role.
00:05:13
Speaker
ah Both magazines were owned by MS Communications at the time. So it was ah it was kind of a a transfer, but Atlanta was yeah obviously kind of a bigger name magazine, a bigger market had had, you know, like Luke Dietrich, Justin Hecker, other great writers that had been there. um And so I was just kind of still kind of locked into the city regional magazine world, still freelancing a little bit along the along the way.
Freelancing Flexibility and Challenges
00:05:34
Speaker
And then, you know, kind of right in the middle this, I guess it would have been like 2014, 2015, you know, the journalism world was kind of changing. had kind of, my, wheelhouse has always been kind of quirkier, longer magazine features, you know, just about like moonshiners or, you know, meth addicts or, you know, but those kinds of things from crime to like music, just the general interest type of stuff. And my editor really wanted to pivot from doing those, so many of those smaller and like larger quirky features and get more into the website, more into like covering daily news and courts and like crime and things, things that were just weren't in my wheelhouse. And so,
00:06:08
Speaker
As time got on, it kind of became apparent that, you know, that as as you know staff positions are very rare and very valuable at at any kind of publication these days, but especially city regionals back in the day.
00:06:19
Speaker
And so it kind of got to the point where it was just like, hey, the staff position here is no longer fit, no longer fits me. And so I, you know, I put some feelers out. I actually got i got another job offer in another city, um but I was just like, you know what?
00:06:35
Speaker
but I'm at a point now where my wife's working and has has benefits, has access to these kinds of things. ah So Atlanta graciously offered me kind of a freelance contract, not nothing that was gonna be full-time, but something that could at least feed me for, and you know, the next six months to a year.
00:06:49
Speaker
And I was like, let's just try the freelance game. And that was that was 12 years ago. And I don't think um I think I'm kind of feral now. I don't think I could adjust to an office if I had to. and that so that's how it began.
00:07:00
Speaker
yeah once you Once you've been out there long enough and have done it long enough and done it well, it it is very hard to, even though the the grind of it is very real, sure it's very hard to get back into the the strictures and structures of the the day-to-day 9-to-5-ishness of it all. Mm-hmm.
00:07:22
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, no, and it's it's it's a great thing because i've always saying I'm never working and I'm always working like I if I have my laptop with me, I'm working. Actually, if I have my phone with me, I'm working. I've I've done edits sitting in like to Tiger Stadium in Detroit or cook as Comerica Fields, what's it called. But like I was sitting there, you know, waiting for a ballgame to start out of a rain delay and got edits. And I was just like,
00:07:41
Speaker
I'm on my phone doing edits and my wife's like, seriously? I'm like, yes i gotta I gotta get this out. But yeah, so it's it's one of those things. I think that's pretty much any job nowadays, but especially freelancing, because the other cool thing is that i don't go have I don't have to have one boss who knows where I am. I have a bunch of bosses who have no idea where I am. So... So sometimes they ask when I can't do it but ah I've always, it's hard to say no. And that's the other thing about freelance is that's, there's a problem that I have. It's saying no, like if they need something, yes, I can do that. There's there's just, i'll I'll find a way to do it. If I have to pull off the side of the road to a truck stop to do the interview or file something, yes, I will find a way to do it.
00:08:16
Speaker
Right. Is there is there ah the sense that if you do say no, that suddenly like the work will dry up and you're like, oh my God, I'm closing a door on something. Absolutely. That that terror is ever present and it has been for 12 years. And so like I always say, but when I got into it, too, it's also kind of a philosophical thing. It's like if you're going to do this.
00:08:35
Speaker
do it. You know what i mean? Like this you may not, cause at the time, and again, this is 12 years ago, but it still feels like I just started. And at the time you're just like, this is your opportunity. This is your freedom before you get locked down into another office situation, whether it's in journalism or not nowadays, uh, this is your chance to be free. And like, and also to like, when people come to you with things, which is amazing, like people actually come to me with things like,
00:08:55
Speaker
do this. i'm like, yes, so okay, I'll do this. I'll try this, even if it's not in my comfort zone, just to see what happens. And I've never completely regretted it. There are times when I'm lost in like a, you know, 3000 word draft about something I'm not interested in. And like, why did I say yes to this? But, but it always works out.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I love what you said a moment ago, too about your your wife having the steady job and benefits. And that's something that my wife has a steady job and the benefits. And um anytime I get a chance to say that, I put that out there because those are the institutional domestic structures that allow us to freelance and weather those ups
Personal Support and Inspirations
00:09:30
Speaker
and downs. And I just like how important has that been for you to have that infrastructure in your life so you can you know turn it loose when with the work you do? It's been crucial. And in fact, I think i have a benefit because I met my wife back in journalism school, 2014.
00:09:43
Speaker
some years ago now. ah And she's kind of ah a recovered journalist. Like she, she decided to kind of go the communications route, which is she's really good at. So she understands the, she understands the schedule shift of freelancing. In fact, if anything, she gets me more now that I'm a freelancer than when I was before, because before it'd be the office hours, plus the evening meeting or the reporting trip that I have to go to. Now I'm here. She also works from home. That works great. But yeah, when it comes to the benefits and again,
00:10:10
Speaker
not to get political at all, but like that's that's the reality of this country. Like I have two kids, they need health benefits, I need health benefits. And without that, freelancing would make it prohibitive to do that. To have that structure both like through the health benefits, but also through through the understanding of of a spouse that understands what i do why I do it and supports how I do it. I say that every time, like there's just no way, not just financially, but because I joke that she supports my, her job is to support my journalism habit. But like, it's yeah, it's also the the emotional support, the idea that, hey, right at the outset, she was like, you can do this. And I'm like, sure, if you say so.
00:10:47
Speaker
Just remember, you said that when I'm, um you know, when I'm on the couch playing playing Switch she all day, waiting for my assignments to come in but that's never that hasn't been the reality yet. Not going to work. And ah I love how you, you know, your wheelhouse was more like those kind of quirky features that are almost like nonfiction short stories or stuff like that. And ah how did you develop that taste in that kind of journalism and that kind of storytelling? You know, it's been ah ever since I transitioned from because when I came up, I started in newspapers and was like, i was actually a business and health writer, which was hilarious because of like at 23, when I had that job, I was fat and poor. um So it was just like, i I'll be the business and health editor of of the Southeast Missouri and ah kind of a daily regional back in the day.
00:11:30
Speaker
But as part of that, you're always writing these centerpiece things. And I've just had, ah I've always had this kind of like widespread curiosity about just about everything. I can get interested in anything as long as my subject's passionate about it. And so that has really translated well to these kind of quirky things like going out with these, you know, ah zoologists to study Indiana brown bats or to go up, you know, with a stunt plane driver, you know, a pilot.
00:11:53
Speaker
and And go up with them and and just really be open again, open to the adventure of it. The shrimp trawlers, just like, hey, you want to do the story? Go, you know, for three days on a shrimping boat. i' like, sure, let's just let's do that while my wife's, you know, eight months pregnant. It was a problem, but we we got we got it done and I got back in time. um But yeah, so it's just it's really I've just had a widespread curiosity. I can I can be fascinated about anything as long as the subject is fascinated with it.
00:12:17
Speaker
Yeah, the last Trawler's piece, when I was reading it last night, it it had such a a pulse of an actual short story. just the way it it' It's not a tremendously long, long feature.
00:12:29
Speaker
You can tell the reporting is deep, but the but the writing is tight and economical. like It really had that short story pulse to it because there's not a lot of quotes, but what you do quote is is very like powerful and moving. like You're being very judicious about... when they talk, yeah this is how I'm going to feature it. So it's, ah yeah, like how did you um yeah develop that that muscle and that degree of, ah I don't authority with you the material? You know, it was it was fascinating because it was just kind of the right thing at the right time in the right situation because, as i and I think I say this in the kind of the postscript to that story, ah I talk about the photographer. Basically, it was a photographer, freelance photographer, Jamie Guy,
00:13:14
Speaker
He's now based in in Minnesota, but he, you know, he was just driving by, saw a bunch of trawlers when he lived in Georgia, stopped, talked to them. He did all the hard work. He got to know them. He actually went out on um the boat with him just to take photographs. And then he came to Atlanta Magazine and was like, hey, here's the story.
00:13:30
Speaker
And me being the quirky guy that likes to, you know, that's interesting things. I'm like that's fascinating. Let's, you know, because I grew up in like a rural area of central Missouri that was completely landlocked. But there's that there's a certain kind of like farmers mentality that translates perfectly to shrimping in any kind of, you know, agribusiness. And so basically he he did all the all the all the hard work. He was there.
00:13:53
Speaker
knew the guys was chatting with the guys. So basically I was just his friend. I was his plus one who was taking notes, which really immediately allowed me to kind of fade into the background because they were used to his presence. And so that's, that's kind of rare to be able to do that, but it's also just the time spent. um I was on that boat for like two or three days, spent the night there. And at that point that they, they definitely forget you there. Which is kind of sad because I'm not sure that I could devote that kind of time and energy to a story nowadays. I'm not sure. First of all, like a magazine would pay for the travel. um I'm not sure I could afford to take those that's so solid hours off away from Wi Fi, where I couldn't do any other work.
00:14:30
Speaker
And so it's kind of a assess a sad reminder of kind of, i hope it's not a bygone era completely, because there are still people doing it, but fewer and fewer, which is kind of kind of gone hand in hand with the with the transition to freelance.
00:14:43
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like stories of that nature and you're butting up against the the realities of it. I almost feel like it's you have to almost treat those stories as if you're an actual fiction short story writer. Like these are the things that I write them because I have to write them. You know, I'll find how to do it in the nooks and crannies of of my life because they mean that much. because You know, the money really isn't there anymore, by and large. And yeah, to your point, like the the time to take on ah a story like that, it almost has to be, you know, a passion project in the same way a fiction writer yeah has to write short stories or something. Absolutely. Absolutely. With that story, too. And I've had several since then where the story is apparent before you
Story Crafting and Transparency
00:15:25
Speaker
get there. Right. Like and and you always want to be open to like shifts and like, you know, forks in the road. But like when I got there, i was like, this is a dying industry. This is a young man who's like, you know, a multi-generation shrimper.
00:15:36
Speaker
Those right that right there is the foundation of the story like that. it's you don't want it to be trite and you don't want it to be, you know, stereotypical. But these are the pieces of a good business story and a good personal story.
00:15:47
Speaker
All I got to do is kind of build on top of it. Part of this too, and a part of the CNF pod expanded universe, I do this subset called pitch club where I invite journalists to share a pitch with me and then I have them audio annotate it about you know how they landed it and just their thinking throughout the whole thing. So there's always this element of salesmanship in freelancing too. originally conceived of it as just like looking at feature pitches. But then the more and more ive I've been doing it, I'm like, oh, wow. Like there's just so many elements of pitching that goes along with freelancing, like pitching subjects to, to like let you shadow them for a long time, especially like, you high profile people who don't necessarily, don't know, they have access to their audience. Why would they let a journalist come along and go dictate the terms of a story? I would never. so it Right. Yeah. It's hard like these days. So,
00:16:37
Speaker
you know what When you're looking to like say just pitch a subject or something, yeah how do you navigate just the the pitching and the lobbying to let you know someone like yourself shadow them for a period of time?
00:16:51
Speaker
it's It's tough and it it goes back in, especially in the freelance game, it goes back to, and there was no right way to do it and there's no regular way to do it, but like it comes back to like the cart or the horse, you know, do you pitch, do you pitch an editor having already gotten this stuff? In which case it's harder to pitch that subject, right? Because like now I'm going to them, like I'm a writer, you can look, you can know, you can Google me you can see that I've been published.
00:17:11
Speaker
I can't promise this is going to run anywhere. and And when I do, I can't promise where it's going to run. Obviously we can talk about it. So can now will you just let this journalist follow you around with no promise of any anything happening out at the end of it, which I've had several times and and they've been game.
00:17:25
Speaker
Obviously once you get that green light, if you can get an editor who kind of trusts you and and that's just building relationships, which is all this business is both with editors and with publications and with with sources. it's yeah it's basically hey this is what you can do this is the reach you're going to have this is kind of what i see as a possible but benefit you are selling it um you don't want to make promises or anything like that and you want to be very upfront obviously always with kind of what you're doing and what your role is especially nowadays when that role is so gray and so blurry in so many different ways and so many different publications to where that that staunch line you know that ah line between journalism and you know
00:18:03
Speaker
And advertising is, I don't think it's ever been more blurry than it is blury than it is now. So yeah, it's's it's really just about being open with communication all around, I've found, like with editors, with sources, with with everybody you're dealing with, just be completely transparent about what you're doing.
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's these days, to even going back to, the even though it was brilliant, like the the last dance docuseries, when these these very powerful central figures at the heart of it and you know have some degree of editorial say, you're not getting to the real story sometimes. though Jordan was pretty forthcoming. Yeah. and that but it's but the fact of the matter is he still had a bit of ah his thumb on the scale of it and you know in these days so many prominent athletes have their own production companies and such robust social media following that it's like you're never gonna really get a good profile on you know LeBron James unless you just eschew talking to him altogether and try to get to the orbit it's like it's So as a result, like journalism and specifically sports journalism is just, it's it's dying and it's really, my God, it's just so hard to you know tell really good stories of the prominent athletes, but maybe at the mid to low levels, there's still great stories to be told. I think so too. And that, that is another appeal of, of kind of doing those like mid-level and quirkier stories where like, yeah, they they have something to say and they're not, they're not going to have the people around them. They're not listening to what, you know, that, that echo chamber and there isn't that, yeah, they don't have the walls up against them for sure.
00:19:35
Speaker
You know, you're talking about the, know, this game is certainly about relationships and, you know, for people who might be on the less experienced end of the spectrum of freelancing, it's, you know, what's key and integral to building that foundation of relationships, uh, so they might be able to have more of a sustained go at this.
00:19:54
Speaker
It's really hard. And I've you know i've spoken to to classes before, you know journalism classes and students um in the past. And I'm not sure, like most of them are like, hey, I wanna get into the freelance gig right out of right out of school. A lot of them don't probably don't have a choice that I had.
00:20:09
Speaker
But I don't know, i worked in you know city regional magazines for 10 years. ah and you know And I happened to go to journalism school with like Seth Wickersham and Justin Heckert, Steve Winton, guys are were in the in the industry.
00:20:23
Speaker
I lean on my Rolodex all the time to this day. Like I'm i'm working on a feature now for Indianapolis monthly. I haven't worked there since 2011, but I know the people there, they trust me and, and I don't live there anymore and they still trust me to get that story to do that profile.
00:20:37
Speaker
And so, yeah, I, it's, it's really hard without an established network. And, uh, You know, I was I was very fortunate to kind of come up in city regional magazines when I did when CRMA, the kind of the trade organization was still pretty, pretty well intact. ah You know, places like Texas Monthly, Los Angeles Magazine, Philadelphia Magazine, where really big established writers worked. It was kind of an open network. And I would just, you know, kind of reach out to Skip Hollingsworth in Texas or Pam Koloff and be like, hey, you know, and it was a community.
00:21:03
Speaker
to the point now where you know those connections are still entrenched and they they they know that I can do what I do. And I obviously know they they're continue to do what they do. It's really hard. ah And yeah, through through like just friendships with like Tom Lake, who who now writes for the Land journal Journal Constitution, formerly of Sports Illustrated and other writers like that, just like through that city regional connection and that network.
00:21:25
Speaker
I still lean on that every day. ah So I honestly, I don't know how you do it directly out of school unless you happen to kind of come up in that cadre of equally talented, ambitious journalists who somewhere get a foothold somewhere. So it's
Freelancer Market Dynamics
00:21:38
Speaker
it's tough. i I honestly don't know where you'd start.
00:21:41
Speaker
I know. And with the ah you know, when you see these mass layoffs happening most recently at The Washington Post, like you're you're you know, you're gutted for the institution, what it means for journalism. But then like as freelancers, you're like, ah fuck. Right. Exactly. The pool just got a whole lot deeper. Yeah. yeah A whole lot fewer byline. No, absolutely. And it was a double whammy because I did a lot of freelance stuff for the Washington Post. And now I'm like, well, where did that budget go? Sometimes, sometimes it can, I'm not gonna say it's a good thing. It's never a good thing, but sometimes that frees up freelance budget. But most of the time it just means everything's going away. And so it's like I lose a client and I have a bunch of competition at the same time. of and it And it sucks for the institution, but most yeah first and foremost.
00:22:24
Speaker
ah That afterward of the in the next wave thing. I love that you brought that like ideas are are what separate successful writers from merely talented ones. So i'd I'd love for you to just expand on space in the freelance world, just the having ideas, generating ideas and executing yeah on them.
00:22:42
Speaker
I think, man, I want to say it was Jason Fagoni, formerly of Philadelphia Magazine, um author, great writer, and also a guy who I just like, hey, I saw your name in Philly Mag, and I work here, and a connection that way. But he once told me a piece of advice that I think is right is like,
00:22:58
Speaker
come to editors with solutions, not with problems. And I have a lot of young freelance writers be like, Hey, hook me up with this editor and do this and and do that. And like, I can connect you, but you better have pitches. If you don't come with the idea, you're just a problem. And I think the way Fagoni worded it is like, you're just, you're just another name in the inbox. And they're, you know, they're flooded with email all day about people who need things. And if you're like, Hey, I'm this writer, here are some clips. Hope you have any ideas for me. And it's just like, that's a problem. That's not a solution.
00:23:28
Speaker
yeah Do your research, look at what the publication does, kind of find what they might need and come to them with, you know, varying degrees in different places, require different legs of depth. You know, like I remember outside magazine practically wanted you to write half the feature in the pitch, but like some places, and especially if you get those relationships, it can be like two sentences, like I'm pitching this and this, this works um that way. But yeah, come to them, come to editors as a solution. Not a problem is always the thing that I lean on there.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I, and you're that afterward also, you're right. Like the danger of chasing a topic rather than a specific narrative, you know, that can get you into, into trouble, which I, especially as a freelancer, it could be trouble. Like, you know, you can't necessarily afford to go too deep down a particular, you know, road or rabbit hole. So just, uh, I'd love for you to expand on that as well when you like, okay, this is an actual opportunity for me to pursue, or maybe I need to pull a ripcord. Yeah, no, absolutely. And you always kind of like to have to go into that looking to us. you have to kind of keep your blinders off to an extent to make sure you're open, that you don't miss a story that you weren't seeing coming. Pitching first always helps in that way, too. And when I was on staff at the city regional magazines, I didn't have to pitch as hard because the editors kind of trusted me. And I think I've developed the reputation of being able to like, we can send Tony to this event and he will find a story within that event, um which is another thing you can do when you have a staff job. But yeah, when you're pitching like freelance editors,
00:24:55
Speaker
in the in the freelance game, I mean, you wanna nail it down as early as possible, as much as possible, because that's your pitch. Your pitch is, you're trying to grab the editor like you would try to grab a reader. So you better have something interesting right at the top and then show that you know what you're talking about, some some level of expertise in in in the middle of it. And also leave yourself open, because a good editor will be like, hey, I know this was my pitch, but here's what I found, and I think this is just a little bit better.
00:25:20
Speaker
It's kind of fluid that way. But yeah, in order to get anybody to say a green light, you're going to need something other than a topic. Like that's going be first thing a freelance editor tells you is like, you know what mean? As a freelancer, the editor will tell you that this is too vague. This is too nebulous. Nail it down for me.
00:25:35
Speaker
Yeah. When I talk to, you know, Sayward or Jonah from The Atavist, who I like, I usually feature one of their, ah their writer every
Effective Pitching Strategies
00:25:42
Speaker
month. And I also talk to them. and ah and they are a very specific kind of magazine. So when I talk to them about their their pitches, they're the ones that tend to fail are the ones are like, Oh, this is kind of a cool idea. Will you turn me loose on it? like, no, we need to know you have access to these central figures. ah Do you say you have access to the archives that you're purporting and, and so forth. And it's like, you in the, ah in in the pitch, there can be no mystery, right you know, in the story. Yeah, sure. You can tease things out and narratively speaking, but in that pitch, like you need to make sure you've got things locked down. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, as a freelancer too, and I talk about this, and this is a big thing, um and I don't want to take too much of a tangent, but it really trained me to treat what I do as as a business and as ah as a kind of a vocation as opposed to like the art form. like
00:26:33
Speaker
It was kind of a luxury being on staff somewhere and being like, I can be artistic. I can take a draft and try to tell the story backwards and do this and do these crazy creative things where the editor just can be like, no, this isn't working. Do it over.
00:26:44
Speaker
When you're freelance, you can't afford a rewrite. You can't afford to kind of go crazy on this kind of tangent. and It's made me become more conservative and treat kind of what I'm doing as a business and as as a craft, I guess, as opposed. There's still artistry to it. I don't want to say it's like, you know, it's not like making widgets, as they say.
00:27:02
Speaker
It has made me take much more practical approach to both to the the craft of writing and how time management and how I commoditize my time. And and it just makes you think of it things in a different light. And I think that residually has <unk> been a benefit when it comes to editors because they're in their position as well. They want to do something great and creative and important, but they're also, they have a budget, they have time constraints. So if you can bring that business approach to it, I've found that's really kind of what has separated my business from from a lot of others.
00:27:33
Speaker
Yeah. How did you cultivate that business muscle um for for freelancing? It's really hard for a lot of people because they just want to focus on like the creative spot. But in order to do this successfully for as long as you've done it, you really need to cultivate that business muscle for sure. It's the truth. Yeah, no, it's basically, and I've i've got a a bit of a, like my dad owned his own business. I kind of grew up in that. So now I have a mind for it, I think. But it's really just treating an editor like a client, like not not some artist you want to impress. Your editor is somebody who, if you understand if you've ever done the job, because I was a senior editor for a little while,
00:28:06
Speaker
got close enough to the big editor to kind of see the workload, see everything they're doing. And it's just like, man, if you can deliver solid copy on time that that fills their need, you are, you know, you're at the bottom of their list of problems and priorities. And that's going to make them come back to you every time. It's just simple service. You know, it's it's basically like if you were doing anything else. And I do, I look at it like,
00:28:28
Speaker
you know, being ah a carpenter or being a contractor or of any kind of electrician, a plumber, even it's like, they'll understand your, your, you need to be flexible in order to do your job. If you're willing to make it up to them. And if, again, I've had editors tell me this, it's like, we know, like if I'm asking for an extra week for something, it's because they know i it's not because I'm being lazy. It's because I'm trying to juggle all these other projects. And they know that when they get it a week later, it's going to be clean.
00:28:54
Speaker
It's going to be concise. It's going to be what they want. yeah Do you handle everything yourself or subcontract anything else to other people? have an accountant.
00:29:05
Speaker
and that yeah i love her but other than that yeah it's it's yeah it's just me and yeah i'm my own it person which fortunately i'd worked in it t a little bit in college which means nothing because i was like late 90s early 2000s and that's like working with rocks but like you know to be like but other than that like yeah everything's on your own that's the other thing they definitely don't teach you is like how to budget like i talked to freelancers like they don't know what cash flow is i'm like that you have to have money to spend especially when you're chasing invoices And that's the other thing, like some some days are just spent chasing invoices, right? Like, it's like the business end of it. So I think I have it. i have a mind that's kind of geared to that. But yeah, it's it's that's the that's the dirty work, right?
00:29:45
Speaker
Absolutely. And how many projects would you say on average do you have going at a given time to keep the flywheel going?
Managing Freelance Workloads
00:29:52
Speaker
You know, but right now ah i have lot but got my list. i actually started making a list. I also forced me to get organized because I am not an organized person. it's Same. Right. So it's but it's forced me to. So my list I've got ten eleven I've got 12 projects kind of in various stages right now for six different clients.
00:30:08
Speaker
Yeah. So how how do you then being someone ah who's not particularly organized, how do you keep that organized so things ah you know don't fall by the wayside and things stay on track and so forth? I'm going to name drop like like ah like crazy here. by ah Mike Sager, when I first got into this, told me he basically sent me his template for an Excel database, which basically says, you know, column A, client, column B, project, column C, date, assign, column D, word count, column E, your, you know, the fee column F, the date, to the date it's due column G, the date you actually turn it in and hit column h the date you send the invoice, the number of the invoice and the amount of the invoice and then the date you get paid.
00:30:51
Speaker
And so that's that's how I do that. And basically, I've also picked up from a managing editor at Atlanta magazine, ah my color coding, which is basically if the if the row is green, I've sent the invoice. If the row is yellow, it's due. If the yeah if the row is red, it's overdue. And if it's white, it's been done and I've been paid.
00:31:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's basically just kind of jumping in there. I love color coding. te ons Yeah. It's just that hell. You can just look at a glance, be like, Oh my God. In your case, like, Oh, tons of white.
00:31:20
Speaker
Awesome. I've been, I've been paid. Oh, there's like 10 rows of red. Like this can't happen. No, it's so bad. Yeah. And the worst, and I've had to train myself, this is a weird little thing, but like, I used to like, as soon as I get the assignment, I put it in the database. And then, then you put your little fee there. This is what I'm going to make. And then of course it falls through or disappears. And there's nothing more painful than taking it out of the dating base. It's like, you're going backwards, you haven't done the work on it and all this stuff. And so it's like, it's been hard to train myself in that way too.
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah. And ah what's been your, your experience with, you know, killed stories. Um, you know, fortunately, ah I've, I've had a few, um, the very generous editors that either have of kill fee and obviously that's the other thing is contracts, which strangely I, I, fewer and fewer people seem to be doing that. Um, cause I haven't really gotten a contract in while, when I first started out, everybody was doing contracts, which would address your kill fee. would address all that kind of stuff. So fortunately, I've always been able to kind of like, you know, talk that out with the editor. And very fortunately, I'm going to jinx myself by even saying this in 12 years, I've only had one client that welched completely, like that just that did that that went out of business and didn't pay me. which is remarkable. And um I know I've jinxed myself there because i actually have an an invoice that's just a $500 invoice that I'm going to need to track down because I don't i know that that the company went out. So yeah, I might've jinxed myself there, but yeah, I've been very fortunate. And again, it's, it's communications, it's it's relationships and things like that.
00:32:45
Speaker
And ah people who write, you know, long form features and do it really well. And when I'm when I'm reading them, I'm always amazed at the material and the in the quotes they get. I'm like, they always seem to get just the best friggin quotes. i'm Like, how do they do this? And I think I have an idea. But I would just for you having been at this so long and you have such a robust network of of of writers who just who routinely crush this kind of stuff.
00:33:10
Speaker
um So like when you when you're coming across those things, like how are these really great reporters and writers just getting this material? So they're just their stories are just all electric when you read them.
00:33:22
Speaker
You know, it's all different. And we we talk about this all the time, too. It's because there are some that are like just drill down like great interviewers that could be on TV doing it. You know, they they. They're together. they They know when to jump off on a tangent when the answer does. It's very formal. It's very something that's just a beautiful interview to watch. And then there are people like me who stutter and stammer and cannot do that. But somehow, it's almost like the source feels sorry for me, and they're just going to give me something better to say. um But it's it's amazing to me, and it's always been amazing to me, how, and I'm not...
00:33:54
Speaker
particularly socially awkward. i'm I'm more of a people person, but there are so many shy people and reserve people and people who do not adapt well to social situations who can just interject themselves into, you know, with a famous person or somebody who's not famous and just get them to open up and kind of get it that way. I've seen, I've seen it happen every which way, like people that are just really great, you know, are you know, will drill down, you know, with the, with the quotes and, you know,
00:34:21
Speaker
Edward R. Murrow the hell out of this thing. And then the other people that are just kind of like, are more like Columbo. just like, yeah, you know, and this, you know, it's just, it's, it's kind of crazy that way. Yeah. How would you characterize your particular style of interviewing? I'm much more Columbo than Edward R. But it it is it's also true. and And, you know, somebody was on this the other day. It's like, don't say talk about this, you know, have a specific question.
00:34:46
Speaker
I'm not sure I agree with that. Like, it depends on the setting. That was in a press conference setting, which I hate those because I feel obligated. I'm not, I'm not, I feel obligated my fellow journalists to give them more time when the aggressive person gets the good stiff there. But like, If it's one-on-one or like in a set situation, yeah, it's just talking to people. like I don't know. it's just like and It's amazing when people find out that you're interested in what they're interested in. and That's all it takes. One thing, and and with an interesting thing, too, that we haven't talked about yet is when I started off, I was very much like always a generalist. and We talked about that. like
00:35:18
Speaker
Being a generalist keeps you open to all these other things. Specializing puts you in this niche, in this kind of pigeonhole. <unk> I've still tried to generalize, but I've found also that I've gotten into beer writing lately. That's kind of become my niche over the last three or four years. um Just kind of turning a habit into a hobby, into a profession.
00:35:35
Speaker
And basically, like, that's the other thing. is like you get a basic knowledge of some things where if you you just know enough to, like, make it sound like you know what you're talking about, but not enough that they they think you know everything. And you're kind of in that sweet spot where they want to tell you things. They want to prove, they want to show you, prove out this theory that that you have. I talk to you that way. So it's really just kind of coming to the level of of your source material, I think.
00:35:57
Speaker
You know, in the last trawler thing, too, and what what you were you were you were talking about bycatch, but there was bycatch in terms of, you know, what they're trawling for in shrimp and all that stuff. But I think in reporting, too, like especially if you're a recorder user, which which I which I use, ah most people do. Old school people sometimes don't. But there is this idea of like, I'd rather have like all that bycatch to throw out and then, you know, and not miss anything. And, you know, how do you, you know, guard against that? Maybe the notebook versus the recorder and your, and your reporting. You know, it's a weird thing. it's It's a, and it's really again, by the kind of by the situation, because not only do I have a recorder and now with like transcription software, there's really no reason not to use a recorder. Like it's just, it's just nice to have it and you can always just turn it out before I might not use it if I knew I wasn't going time to transcribe it anyway. Um, but, but now I, there's just no reason not to. So I i record everything, but I also use the notebook, but also, um, and skip Hollins, we've talked about this again, just name dropping. Uh, he just bring the laptop and like, I've done that several times too. And it's amazing how quickly the laptop disappears. Like I'll just type directly into the thing. And it's like, it's super convenient and it's surprisingly unobtrusive to, to the interview. Obviously you can't just be walking around, you know, like that, but
00:37:15
Speaker
And then of course, again, with the phone, with phones and stuff. And again, this is dating myself. because i actually remember a time before the phones, I mean video, right? Like why wouldn't I take video of some of this crap? Like, this is awesome. I mean, not for my Instagram or to, you know, to to put it out on social media, but like, just because I, if I want to put myself back in that spot, when I'm writing about it, here's the panoramic video of what I was seeing. I wish I would have had that on that shrimping boat. I mean, Holy cow. You could have like just really recreated the the setting, but I just had a little Nokia candy bar that,
00:37:43
Speaker
barely gave me the score to the Cardinals Brewers game. So, you know, if your job is the reporter is to gather as much information as possible. And then if you're doing these long form things, appealing to the senses is how you can really immerse a reader in it. And so like, why wouldn't you get as much sensory detail as possible and whatever tools at your disposal are there? Absolutely. The other thing too, you mentioned the bycatch and I've told other writers this too, because i've I've found this to be absolutely the case is that like, and I call it like using every part of
Maximizing Reporting Efforts
00:38:14
Speaker
the Buffalo.
00:38:14
Speaker
Like I've taken stuff, especially like in, in, in the beer writing, but also I've taken stuff that has been bycatch this story and been like, I've gone to other publications. I'm like, I just did this story about this, you know, this brewer in Oklahoma who is doing this cool stuff with, you know, Native American traditions of his tribe.
00:38:30
Speaker
But there's also a story about his dad that didn't fit into that Bloomberg story. you You know, this this it was a Salvation South. Chuck Reese runs it. I was like, there's a great father son story here. If you could just stretch the definition of South to Oklahoma, which some people do, some people don't.
00:38:46
Speaker
I could write the story for you. I've already done the reporting. i could just call them back and do some other stuff. And there's an easy there's an easy story fee for a story that I really wanted to tell that I couldn't tell over here. So you mentioned the bycatch. It's it can become valuable, too, if you can reuse it For sure. And ah i I love this um yeah this idea of like, ah you know you got into you know beer writing too, and I'm like in a beer mecca of the country too. it's ah It's changed a lot in the last few years, a lot of corporate buyout and everything, and but there's still a lot of really good local um you know beer establishments and in breweries. But ah yeah, what's been illuminating about covering covering that? it's It's hilarious. I make this joke is because I actually started off as a musician in college. That's what I wanted to do. Took a couple little kind of a walkabout year doing that. Got into journalism.
00:39:31
Speaker
And now I'm into beer writing. And I'm like, I just have a knack for choosing industries that that are going to suffer because I have because it's no sooner did i get into the beer. industry writing that it's all kind of coming down. I want to think that the industry is it's kind of a course correction because it was kind of it was it was getting a little bit ridiculous with how many places would have, you know, like five breweries on two blocks and everything. I love it. But I can kind of see where that may not have been a sustainable business model.
00:39:56
Speaker
But what's been great about it is and what I found about it is and it's a perfect example of what we were talking about earlier. I love beer, I always have. I love the culture about it. And that's kind of the niche too. But I don't ever wanna make it. And no one ever wants to drink what I make, including myself, especially myself.
00:40:12
Speaker
And I don't, and the process is still mysterious to me. So it's like I walk into a brewery and like, I know the history of this and I know the the cultural place for this. I don't know what you do. Tell me what you do, how you do it. And it's that that perfect kind of wheelhouse of of kind of knowing just enough And not not too much. And the other thing is, too, when we talk about running freelance as a business, I've also kind of found my niche there in that I'm also in the it's north North American Beer Writers Guild.
00:40:39
Speaker
And it's funny because everybody else in there are industry insiders. Like these these are writers that are great writers who absolutely know the ins and outs of every part of the business or and or they know every part of brewing.
00:40:52
Speaker
And um I've almost kind of found my niche as the guy who doesn't know those things. Like I'm the guy who has these connections with these general interest publications, who knows how to write about beer for people who don't know anything about beer and kind of hopefully transmit my passion. I do like um ah a monthly column for Bloomberg called Top Shelf where that's exactly it. Like I'm just trying to demystify this or talk about, you know,
00:41:13
Speaker
you know, talk about the emergence. What is a sour? What is, you know, what are fooders? What is beer stolen? Like that kind of thing. And it's just, it's been a blast. So it's it's interesting how you kind of follow your passion and try to create a niche for yourself. And how has your ah relationship to ambition changed in the goals and success that you've set out for yourself that maybe have maybe from 12 years ago to where they are now? What's been that development and evolution like for you? That's a great question. um And it's fascinating cause i think about it a lot.
00:41:43
Speaker
I run every day and i've I've kind of taken to like not listening to podcasts and music now and just running kind of out in the in the silence of things in my own mind. And I think about this a lot, lot um not to get too philosophical, but yeah, no, it's it's it's kind of fascinating that like when I first started magazine writing, it was like, you know, the mid 2000s, you know, 2005. And that was the era of like, you wanna be the Esquire writer, right? You wanna be Tom Junot, you wanna be, you know, Tom Chiarella, you wanna be Chris Jones, you wanna go get those contracts and be able to live anywhere you want and be able to kind of go and travel and see these things.
00:42:18
Speaker
and write these big, beautiful magazine stories. And then of course, that job almost, I mean, I don't know too many people that have that job anymore, including some of those guys, like they've kind of gone off and done their own things.
00:42:29
Speaker
The nature of of magazines has changed, the nature of journalism has obviously changed, and definitely the economics of it is. So I've found myself, and obviously also kind of being a very pragmatic person who you know has a family, who's not gonna, I'm not dicking around here, right? Like I've gotta provide, I've gotta prove my wife every day that it's worth her time and support to do this.
00:42:50
Speaker
Cause she's, she's upstairs and she's my boss. um So. he's Yeah. Total CFO. Yeah. It's like got a report to the CFO. Absolutely. And there's no getting away from it because she sees all the receipts and all the bills. So it's like, there's no hiding it. There's no hiding that expense report. ah But yeah, no, it's, but I, so even through that pragmatic approach, I found myself exactly where I wanted to be. Maybe not, you know, I'm not vying for, you know, national magazine awards and I'm not writing for Esquire, although sometimes those projects kind of come up.
00:43:20
Speaker
But I'm able to live where I want. I'm able to write about what I want, the way I want on my terms. and So it's it's crazy how I've kind of backed into exactly what I always wanted. Because ah so much of it is operating a business with words and you've got like, you know dozen projects in the air. like How do you like to structure your days?
00:43:41
Speaker
So, you know, basically you're chipping away at multiple things at multiple times. Yeah, no, it's it's it's interesting. ah It's kind of just prioritizing things. First I try to i' try to first of all try to keep to the original deadline of everything. And sometimes that's, it's basically enough to answer your question, it's a completely unstructured day. It kind of depends on the workload. Like if I've got something that I didn't get done last night, I get up at 4 a.m. m to start working on it this morning to kind of flip it around that way. Sometimes it's kind of prioritizing and remembering,
00:44:11
Speaker
Well, I put these guys off last time, so I really need to get this on their deadline, maybe even earlier if I can, and kind of just get the trains in order, as I say, right? But basically, it starts with coffee, lots of coffee. And then basically, it's kind of whatever the... I rarely find myself...
00:44:27
Speaker
And I try to try to make this time for myself a time to like just go out on the deck if the weather's nice or just kind of like go out for a long run and kind of like, here's the stories I want to tell. Here's what I should reach out. Here are some ideas that I want to write down and pitch. Fortunately, and I'm in this time now ah where the assignments are coming so fast that I don't have time to pitch. And so you you just kind of try to kind of just kind of go with the flow with it and always kind of be on call like we talked about earlier, always be available.
00:44:54
Speaker
and diligent about it, but also kind of take time to breathe and kind of take time to, and I'm not sure if I'm asking or answering your question, but like it's it's very
Daily Routine and Resilience
00:45:02
Speaker
unstructured. My day is either, sometimes it's just, you know, wall to wall writing. Sometimes I don't write a word. It's just emailing. Sometimes it's, you know, tracking down invoices. Sometimes it's seeking out other clients. Sometimes it's like, I need to follow up with this editor about this pitch.
00:45:15
Speaker
I'm going to give up on this editor, take that pitch, rework it and send it to this person. Cause I'm also a person, I have friends in the business who were like, well, like broadcast, like go to the last trawler, just send out the nets, right. and evolve pitch At the same time, I can't do that. cause so And it's never happened, but what if, you know, two people say yes, how can I walk that back? So and as a result, i'm I'm sitting on pitches that I've, I wrote, you know,
00:45:37
Speaker
a year ago that I'm slowly trying to get to to a home. And so, yeah, so basically to answer your question, there is no structure, which is actually, i love it. It's kind of it's just a new adventure every day. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when I was ah reporting on the front runner and research, like, ah you know, was a lot of newspapers dot com stuff. And then since I have a weird phone number, I guess we all kind of have weird phone numbers now. Totally.
00:46:01
Speaker
Yeah. And so, like, you know, i might I might take a chunk of time and leave end up leaving 10 voicemails and then it's like. okay, let's get back into this other thing, but you never know who's going to call back and when. So you have to be nimble in that regard and not as much as it would be nice to have like a truly like 90 minute deep block of like concentration used.
00:46:22
Speaker
You never know if that phone is going to start buzzing back with people calling you back. So you you really have to, yeah, you have to be yeah nimble in that regard. Absolutely. No, I always have it on. And it's it's funny because it's people talk about ringtones. Like I'm a reporter. I haven't had a ringtone for 25 years. Like way by my phone's always on silent because but I'm always on it. Right. Like even when I'm running, I run with my phone.
00:46:45
Speaker
If it buzzes, I'm checking the email and I'll stop and type something out. If I have to, I'll stop and call somebody if it's that urgent. Like I'm always on. I don't it. It doesn't bother me because I'm also like always off, you know, like.
00:46:56
Speaker
Sometimes I can let that go to voicemail. Sometimes I can wait till I get back to do that. But yeah it's just kind of being open with it. But it's it is kind of fascinating, just the day to day of it and kind of how things are different. Inherent in this it is rejection also, especially if you're just starting. Even experienced people you know deal with it. They just know how to deal with it better. So how have you developed that ah the muscular muscle musculature and the scar tissue around rejection? It still sucks, no absolutely. never That doesn't get easier. um And especially like could because you get to a point where, and it's just like with writing too, like you think just when you think you know so you think you know what you're doing, you find out that you don't. like This pitch is perfect for this publication. Why wouldn't they say yes to this? And no, it's just not for us. i'm like
00:47:39
Speaker
Seriously, like this is perfect for you. And so like, ah yeah, it sucks. and And God, I actually think about this, too. And I have a folder for the, you know, the the wayward pitches that I'm just like, I'm not sure I can sell this anymore. Either that events pass that fads passed. It was great when I had the time to do it. or And, you know, when the time was to do it. And so you just gotta to be orphaned. And maybe maybe it'll come back around again. Maybe there'll be another chance.
00:48:01
Speaker
um You know, and I've had sources. It's just like, I'm sorry, guys. Like, i've I really thought this would sell. This either got killed, this got dumped. I was working on it while the publication folded. I mean, that's the reality nowadays. It's like, I've had that several times where it's just like,
00:48:15
Speaker
I've done the work and they, they pay me for it but it's not going run anywhere. And then you've got to find another home for that. And you figure, Oh, I have this completed thing. this is going to be so easy to sell. Even if I could take a cut rate on it now, you know, it just sits there and languishes. And so you just kind of keep moving on. I think that's a thing. And the other thing is,
00:48:32
Speaker
after 12 years of it, it's this knowledge that like, you kind of, I hate to even say it out loud. hate to speak it into existence, but you kind of like, it's going to be okay. You know what i mean? Like, you know, I've, I've been through layoffs. I've been through staff cuts. I've been through wage cuts. I've been through all this shit and somehow I'm still doing it. We're entering the era of AI when it's coming to form my job. And it's just like, okay, we'll see. And maybe that's the case. And you know, that nothing ever happens until it happens. But after 25 years in the industry, it's just like,
00:49:02
Speaker
ah we'll see We'll see what happens. We'll wait we'll wait this out. Yeah, there's so much uncertainty. and um yeah, how how you're speaking to it right now, but how ah have you and how do you weather that uncertainty of things changing underfoot, but still doing the work? You know, I found that what I can rely on, and it's really interesting too, because ah we were kind of talking about the idea of retirement. um I just turned 47, full disclosure, and that's probably gonna screw me with some editors. But like, like i may I may frantically call you back and please bleep that part out. But but it's it it is weird being, because i make this joke all the time, so many of my clients, I wouldn't recognize if I bumped into them on the street. Like I make these connections through other people, I'm a name in the inbox, I know this person,
00:49:46
Speaker
I don't dox them or go stalk them on social media. Sometimes if I'm interviewing somebody, I might go to their LinkedIn page just to kind of like see what they look like if they have a picture posted or something. But it's fascinating that like, they don't know how old I am. They don't know, you know, there's, so the age isn't part of is what I'm saying. hasn't come into play yet.
00:50:03
Speaker
With that in mind, but to answer your question, I found that my niche and what I bring to the table is the fact that I've been doing it so long, that I have an old schooled approach to it that's malleable and and very open to like doing these new things. Like, hey, Tony, can you can you shoot video? Like, of course I can shoot video. And then I go talk to my 14 year old daughter. I'm like, how do I shoot this video? You know, those kind of things, like just things that I um i am a dinosaur and i'm I'm old school even for my age. Like I was i was kind of a throwback even when you know when I was young. And so you just kind of always say yes, like we talked about earlier.
00:50:34
Speaker
And then learn it on the fly and kind of be bring that old school mentality with an openness to, you know, using technology and and and being malleable about it. Yeah. And if you had to identify something that, you know, that you identify as particularly good at, you know, your superpower, you know, what what would you say that is?
00:50:53
Speaker
that's That's really fascinating. My superpower. I think I'm a realist. i think that's I think that's it. I know some really tremendous artists. I know people who work harder than me. I know people who have better ideas than I do.
00:51:03
Speaker
try to I take the blinders off. Like I, at the end of the day, i know that what I'm doing, it can be done artfully and it can be done in a way that's emotionally impactful. But I think I'm one of the few writers, and I may not say this, who understands that I'm doing a job, that I'm doing a service. i And I don't want to, there's a lot of people that, but at the end of the day I want it to be good. i want it to be something that other writers like, but and I want it to be something that I'm proud of.
00:51:29
Speaker
But I also want it to be something that's doing the job to which it's being set forth. And and freelancing, you you see that all the time. it depends on the publication you're writing for. I want to be geared to this audience. I want to give the editor what they're trying to do. and At the end of the day I'm trying to communicate ideas like this beautiful thing. I'm not a poet, like this beautiful thing that doesn't serve its purpose is not is not what I want to do. I want to be the guy who builds a beautiful cabinet that will last you 100 years and, you know, be sent down like that's what I want to do. I want to be the guy that that puts together the thing that's going to be practical in your daily use that you also can take pride in the craftsmanship of it.
00:52:03
Speaker
Yeah. And is there ah or what balance of the work you do is ah is pure journalistic versus maybe other mercenary type stuff? um You know, it it depends, and hes kind of it fluctuates. there And then there's also what's really cool, and I found a great niche, is alumni magazines, which is kind of in between, right? Like, I've never had any journalistic restriction. you know've i um They let me do my journalism job there, even though it's basically a publication that's it's kind of that weird little gray area. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, ah I'd say it's about 50-50. You'd have to sometimes take the mercenary jobs, you know, the the the content writing, as it were. I used to, like...
00:52:43
Speaker
run away from that word like the plague, but we're providing content. That's so kind of part of the realism part too. And and remembering that kind of stuff and custom publications and things like that. I take my share of that. I'm not i'm not ashamed to admit it. um And it funds the journalism part. And that's the other thing too, is like you kind of realize as you get older, like the store is not going pay what it's worth, but it's going lot of fun to do. So I'm going do that. And so I can i take a couple other jobs that I may not want to do to to fund that and pay it forward. And that's the other thing that I've really learned too it from the business end is really the spend money to make money and that's what i find a lot of journalists freelancers have trouble doing they have trouble being like the other day like i got a got wind that there was a story the possibility down in tulsa and i'm like this doesn't this is not really on my beat and it tells us about six and a half hour drive for me and so it wasn't really on my beat but i'm like well as a beer writer i know there are breweries there i can go out of pocket
00:53:37
Speaker
and pay for my trip down there and pay for a hotel room, hit some breweries, which you know are going to be researched for this other thing that I do, meet with these guys and have a better formulated pitch. But that's all on me. like i just I just put you know however many miles on my car, how many ten you know gallons of gas in my tank, um spent the hotel room to to make that happen and in hopes that it pays off and in the long run. so Yeah, it's it's a wild ride.
00:54:03
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, for sure. And I'd i'd love to get a thing. You've talked about running and how important that is to you. It's such a great meditative exercise, especially for, you know, what we do. And a lot of the writing sometimes happens when we're running running idea generation and stuff. So just how integral is it to your ah to your just your day to day life, but also your your creative life?
Creative Outlets and Resources
00:54:25
Speaker
it's It's super integral and it's amazing. And it kind of fluctuates to how I spend the time. The actual running part, I hate. I hate the physical thing of running, but it it has to be. And actually I was kind of thinking about this too, as I was running the other day. um Cause like I said earlier, a lot of the times I'll just have it off where I'm just kind of thinking to myself, there's no audio.
00:54:42
Speaker
Sometimes I'll plug in an audio book that I know I like, just get the rhythm of language. Sometimes I'll listen to ah an interview, right? Like I need to untangle this. i i don't have an hour to sit at my desk and listen to this, but I have an hour to go out and run and listen to this.
00:54:53
Speaker
Running is fascinating because walking is not the same, right? And I think it dates back to our, I'm gonna get kind of wonky here, but like, I think it dates back to our days as as hunter gatherers. Like when you're walking, you're a calm, you're peace, but you're also open to your surroundings and you're very easily distracted.
00:55:08
Speaker
When you were a hunter gatherer, when you were running, you were either running from something or trying to find something. Either way you're focused, right? Like, so your mind is laser focused on whatever you're thinking about. And it just provides that weird kind of window Into untangling things. And I actually think literally kind of shaking things physically loose out of your brain almost that that probably doesn't match up, you know, biologically, but like, yeah, sometimes you're like I'm stuck here, I'm going to go for a run. And by the time you're back, you've you've shaken loose the answer.
00:55:35
Speaker
Yeah, I like to run with, I usually have a pencil in my hat and ah ah a write in the rain notebook in my pocket too. So anytime I'm just, I'll scribble something oh that's a cool little turn of phrase. I don't know where it's going to go, but we're I'm going to put it down and yes sea what'll save it for later. Yes, yes. I'll i'll roll crawl record some notes too. Like this should start with this. like So yeah, it's it's ridiculous. and I need to erase those before somebody finds them.
00:56:01
Speaker
Nice. Well, Tony, I want to be mindful of your time. And as I bring these conversations out for a landing, I always love asking the guests for just ah a fun recommendation for the listeners. And that's just like anything you find cool that you want to share with the listeners. It's like bringing you a little bit of joy. ah It could be, know, a brand coffee, a fanny pack, a cool brand of socks. it It doesn't matter. Dealer's choice. So up to you. Oh, God. um I found alarmingly too many people don't use their local library.
00:56:28
Speaker
And use your local library, and not only just for books, but like Canopy, Hoopla, you can get audio books that way. That's been my sal salvation. It's just like kind of going to the library for the, does that kind of fit into what you're talking about?
00:56:41
Speaker
Sure, absolutely. and ah it it and also, just tap your librarian on the shoulder too. like you know they're They're so underutilized as a resource for writers, because they're just there. They're these wealth of knowledge, and they can they're such great tour guides to the place. And you ask them for a favor, and they'll just return that tenfold, because they're just like these little research mice, and they just go everywhere, and they'll like pull things for you. Like, holy shit, this is amazing. Yeah, they were the original Google, right? yeah i used to work yeah I used to work in a library and yeah, I will have, i always have nothing but respect for the things that you can do there. And, and so, yeah, and they won't, they won't be there much longer if we don't use them. So please. 100%. Well, Tony, this was amazing to just get a, get an entree into the, you're thinking about your ongoing freelance career. And this is really cool and illuminating stuff. So thank you so much for carving out the time. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a blast. i really appreciate
00:57:44
Speaker
Thanks to Tony for coming on the show. And thanks to Seth Wickersham for putting us in touch. Name drop. It's always nice talking to working freelance writers who often do unglamorous work to subsidize the stuff they're more proud of and talking openly about it.
00:57:59
Speaker
That was revelatory for me a few years ago as this podcast was gaining a bit of altitude.
Balancing Projects and Progress
00:58:05
Speaker
Talking to, I think it was it was probably a Louisa Thomas who said something of bringing up the writing we don't tweet about. Now, writers can be very good at giving the impression that they're making a living writing a few features a year.
00:58:19
Speaker
But oftentimes, as many of you have come to know, and maybe maybe some of you are just learning, that there's often this mercenary work on the side that is really subsidizing the work that you see people really celebrate online.
00:58:33
Speaker
you know Unless some of these writers that are writing very few features a year or just like a handful. you know Unless they're on staff, rare as that is, most like writers are a lying by omission.
00:58:45
Speaker
Thanks again to Lindsey Street, Shauna Kenny, and Wyatt Massey for joining the Patreon crew. If you want to join them and legions of others, you can go to patreon.com slash cnfpod. And also thanks to the Power of Narrative Conference for its promotional support. Visit combeyond.bu.edu and use that Narrative 20 code to get a sick discount.
00:59:09
Speaker
And no, I don't get commissions or kickbacks. Follow the show on Instagram at Creative Nonfiction Podcast and sign up for Pitch Club and Rage Against the Algorithm.
00:59:21
Speaker
Two newsletters over at brendanamara.com for embed forms. I might move Pitch Club off Substack because of the whole Nazi affiliation thing. I don't know. i I'm definitely against Nazis, Jesus Christ. Let's let's let's get that out there. um I invited someone to Pitch Club, and she cited the Nazi thing as a reason why she didn't want to come on and be celebrated on Pitch Club. You know, whatever. I honored her decision. I don't think she actually likes me very much, for one, so I think that's the primary reason.
00:59:50
Speaker
ah Whatever. Whatever, man. But I mean, the fucking Nazis are on every platform. So are you not going to use YouTube, Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, Facebook?
01:00:02
Speaker
Anyway, we'll probably never speak again, and I'm sure she's just fine with that. Such is life. Anyway, in case you were wondering why there was no parting shot last week, it's because I killed it. I had it tracked and packaged, but I thought better about it.
01:00:17
Speaker
It wasn't that it was whiny, or that ah but I was particularly slighted by someone I consider a friend. and Not that they listen to the show, and if they did, not that they listen to the end. Only about four of you do.
01:00:31
Speaker
It was something that made me feel really shitty, and it was pretty insulting what this other person did, and I just didn't want to give it any more air. The more enlightened among us would probably say, like, who cares, B.O., take the high road, and then there's me. I still elected to kill it, which I guess is neither high nor low, but maybe middle.
01:00:51
Speaker
So I just get to stew on it, even though it was how I felt, and it was deeply personal to me, and a trend I often see from people who come on this podcast. Anyway, which is to say, I'm drawing up a different kind of parting shot today as I listen to rain sounds on my phone.
01:01:11
Speaker
An organ. You would think I hear rain sounds enough. No, I can never hear enough rain sounds. I got to thinking about this disease of having to feel productive at every turn, especially so for the freelancer type who might not have the same kind of metrics that ah you get from a traditional employment situation or even the more physical jobs like landscaping or stocking produce. You can see the results of your labor.
01:01:39
Speaker
And then you see goons like RFK Jr. lament that people with autism, ah well, they they won't have the joy of paying taxes. Or Dr. Fucking Oz saying people should get right into the workforce so they can start paying income taxes right away.
01:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, so yeah love let's keep dumbing down our society even more so we can make the rich. ever richer good stuff good times right i understand we have to be productive on some level so we can have housing and food and clothes and a library flush with hardcover novels but productivity porn hustle porn the four-hour workweek porn of it all it's so toxic because like everything in a capitalistic culture of more more more you're never enough you're never doing enough until you die you'll never be productive enough enough is the operative word to try to live by hard as fuck but it's what we try to do here
01:02:40
Speaker
which made me think that I'd rather see progress over productivity. you know we're not factories. The best of us are trying to create something we can be proud of, and that's not necessarily prone to productivity. But progress can be incremental.
01:02:54
Speaker
You one drop of water in the bucket, one measly plunk of water is still progress to filling up the damn thing. you know Sometimes they bristle at the the writing influencer types online who say you have to write every day, and if you don't, you're somehow not taking your writing seriously, or to be serious, you need to do it every day.
01:03:17
Speaker
But sometimes I feel that does a great disservice to people. like Life kind of sucks right now, and life kind of always sucks to some extent on a continuum. And if you're not scrambling to protect a neighbor from the American Gestapo or tired of your third consecutive week of protesting or tired from working your three jobs just so you have enough to eat, I'm not going to begrudge you for not finding time to write today, this week, or even this month.
01:03:43
Speaker
I'm not going to be the one who says you're not serious about it because you just have no energy to give. And if you do have a blissful 10 minutes to yourself, you may elect to write or you just might close your eyes and cry or sleep.
01:03:59
Speaker
Maybe you can jot down ideas for when the season feels ripe to perhaps take on a creative project. And maybe that more productivity mindset helps you get shit done. it It helps for sure, especially with some of the stuff I do where I need to make steady progress toward a deadline.
01:04:15
Speaker
But in softer times, I'd rather feel like I'm nudging toward a goal. It's kind of the same way for, i don't know, say fat loss. you know if you If you have 20 pounds of fat to lose and you feel like you need to lose it for health reasons, no fat shaming here.
01:04:30
Speaker
It's because you're you're you know you're maybe you're heading towards a blood pressure-induced stroke. i had a 165 over 103, not to brag, the other day. In my defense, I was super hungover. It's probably best to lose those 20 pounds over two-year span, making very slow but steady progress. It doesn't necessarily feel productive in the moment.
01:04:53
Speaker
I beat the shit out of myself for not being productive enough, and for not making enough money, for not cleaning the house enough. ah yeah Our weekends are often meant for, like, quote-unquote, getting shit done, as my wife likes to say.
01:05:05
Speaker
If you take a break, you tend to feel guilty. I hate that for us. I hate that for you. I hate that for all of us. You know, yeah rewiring that circuitry is going to take time. Steady progress, I guess.
01:05:17
Speaker
So stay wild, CNF-ers. And if you can't do interviews, say that.