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Episode 511: Writing to Leave the Past in the Past with Jane Marie Chen
594 Plays7 days ago
"To be a good writer, you have to really get into the visceral parts of the experience, right? You have to bring someone into that experience with you, which requires you to go back and understand every detail, every memory, all the visceral aspects of the experience, the sounds, the smells, everything that was happening," says Jane Marie Chen, author of Like a Wave We Break.
Today we have Jane Marie Chen, author of Like a Wave We Break: A memoir of Falling Apart and Finding Myself. It’s published by Harmony. It’s a book whose ancestor is very clearly Eat, Pray, Love. A story of the cost of achievement and ambition, how childhood trauma permeates deep into adulthood, and the long nonlinear road to healing.
Jane, being the entrepreneur she is, has quite the ecosystem around her memoir. At her website, there’s a self-worth quiz. I don’t feel like failing, so I’m not gonna take it. If I can’t copy off the smart kid, then why take the test, am I right? She does speaking and leadership coaching, workshops on building resilience, and she recently delivered a TED talk about resilience.
Jane is the former CEO and co-founder of Embrace Global, which developed infant incubators that helped more than 1,000,000 babies, many of which would have died without this technology. She was recognized as Forbes Impact 30 and receive the Economist Innovation Award, Fast Company Innovation Award, and the World Economic Forum Social Entrepreneur of the Year Award. She has an MBA from Stanford and a Masters in Public Administration from Harvard. Didn’t I just have some clown on the show who studied at Yale and Harvard. What the fuck am I doing? If I don’t feel inadequate, I don’t feel alive, man.
You can learn more about Jane at janemariechen.com and follow her, let’s just say on the gram, at janemarie.chen.
In this podcast, we talk about:
- How she wrote the book to help people
- The importance of surfing in her life
- What’s enough?
- Burnout
- Writing the visceral
- Zooming in and Zooming out
- Playing with timelines
- Working with a collaborative writer
- Writing to leave the past in the past
- And not wanting to write a prescriptive memoir
Some pretty rich shit, man, parting shot on, shit if I know, so let’s queue up the montage. Here’s Jane Marie Chen, huh!
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction & Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, hey, CNFers, I'm going to have a promo code for the 2026 Power of Narrative conference in Boston coming soon. Should give you a nice little discount.
00:00:11
Speaker
Teasing a discount? I might use it myself so I can save a few bucks. No, I don't get commissions and kickbacks or a free lunch. I'm not that savvy. This podcast is sponsored by the newsletter Pitch Club, the monthly sub stack where you read cold pitches, ideally cold. I mean, some might be a little lukewarm, but whatever. And here the authors audio annotate their thinking behind how they sold and crafted their pitches, how to pitch an agent, an editor, a feature, an essay, a source.
00:00:42
Speaker
Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. Forever free. Read a little, listen a little, learn a lot. The cervix is open. There's no going back.
00:00:59
Speaker
Oh,
Guest Introduction: Jane Marie Chen
00:01:00
Speaker
hey, scene members. It's just the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell, how they go about the work, and how shitty we feel. I'm Brendan O'Meara, the host nobody asked for, but maybe the one you need. If you want to check out Neiman's storyboard, Kim H. Cross had me annotate a chapter of The Front Runner. She also featured your boy in her waterproof notebook, Substack, in case you're not sick of me yet.
00:01:27
Speaker
And why would you be? Remember, when journalism was a good career, me neither. Today we have Jane Marie Chen, author of Like a Wave We Break, a memoir of Falling Apart and Finding Myself.
00:01:40
Speaker
It's published by Harmony. It's a book whose ancestor is very clearly eat, pray, love. It's story of the cost of achievement and ambition, how childhood trauma permeates deep into adulthood, and the long nonlinear road to healing. I'm kicking myself for not asking Jane a question I had written down um and I had forgotten about. She had a very privileged access to an army of healers, some very famous ones. And I meant to ask her how she counseled people with lesser means on how to approach their healing if they want to embark on a similar journey or start the journey.
00:02:22
Speaker
As much as I fucking hate that word journey these days, you know, the band's okay, but you know, the the whole whole the whole journey industrial complex, bleh. That's my bad. Copping to that right now. Show notes and off-kilter blogs are at brendanomero.com. Hey, hey. If you care to support the show with a few dollars and cents, you can visit patreon.com slash cnfpod for a host of cool perks. like the Flash 52 sessions. And and your 10th Flash session with me, I will edit a Flash essay for you and give you notes. I have a little punch card for everybody. It's pretty... For all the frequent flyers, I actually have little punch cards like you get at your coffee shop.
00:03:02
Speaker
The show's Instagram is at Creative Nonfiction Podcast. but We got a new patron. She from Australia. She named Kelly. Thank you very much for coming aboard, Kelly. I used to read the full names of people just as a means of shout outs. But now I realize that's probably bad practice because who knows what fucking weirdos are out there. Actually, we do know. We just don't don't know.
00:03:24
Speaker
We do know, but we don't know. You know what I mean. So I'll give the shout outs to new patrons with just the first name. Okay. Thank you, Kelly. Free ways to support the show are leaving kind reviews for either the podcast or and the front runner.
00:03:42
Speaker
I got a nice, lovely review for the podcast. Let me read it and give this shout its proper outs. It's from Indystermorrow. I don't know.
00:03:55
Speaker
ah Indispensable. Five stars. The CNF pod is great fun. Crucial insights into writing nonfiction or from a pool of excellent writers who know their stuff. Must listen, not only for aspiring nonfiction writers, but for working successful ones too. This is the community you're looking for. And ain't that sweet. Thank you very much.
00:04:17
Speaker
N-D-E-S-T-R-M-A-R-O. N-D-E-S-T-R-M-A-R-O. Maybe that's it. N-D-E-S-T-R-M-A-R-O. Doesn't matter. All that matters is that I'm deeply grateful that you took the time to do that and help validate the show for the wayward CNF-er.
00:04:30
Speaker
So Jane, being the entrepreneur she is, has quite the ecosystem around her memoir. At her website, jainemariechen.com, there's a self-worth quiz, and I don't feel like failing, so I'm not going to take it.
00:04:43
Speaker
ah If I can't copy off the smart kid, then why take the test, right? uh she does speaking and leadership coaching and workshops on building resilience and she recently delivered a ted talk about resilience that you can find at ted on youtube i will embed it in the show notes wow save you a trip jane is the former ceo and co-founder of embrace global which developed infant incubators that look like these little like tiny sleeping bags And it helped more than a million babies, saved hundreds of thousands of lives, many of which would have died without this technology. She was recognized as Forbes' Impact 30 and received the Economist Innovation Award, Fast Company Innovation Award, and the World Economic Forum Social Entrepreneur of the Year Award.
00:05:33
Speaker
She has an MBA from Stanford and a master's in public administration from Harvard. Didn't I just have some clown on the show who studied at Yale and Harvard? Like, what the fuck am I doing? If I don't feel inadequate, I don't feel alive, man. You can learn more about Jane at JaneMarieChenn.com and follow her, let's just say, on the Gram.
Podcast Topics Overview
00:05:51
Speaker
At Jane Marie dot Jen. In this podcast, we talk about how she wrote the book to help people, the importance of surfing in her life. What is enough burnout, writing the visceral, zooming in, zooming out, playing with timelines, working with a collaborative writer.
00:06:10
Speaker
That was news to me. I should have known that, but I i didn't know she had a co-writer. ah writing to leave the past in the past and not wanting to write a prescriptive memoir.
00:06:21
Speaker
Some pretty rich shit, man. Parting shot on, fuck if I know. So let's cue up the montage. Here's Jane Marie Chen. Cool.
00:06:36
Speaker
Am allowed to swear, the way? Oh, yes. Oh, okay. Are you just fucking insane? Just kind of a sloppy person. No, I'm still such a fuck-up. I'm going to be a fuck-up probably for the rest of my life. but This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:07:00
Speaker
What are some memoirs you drew inspiration from or other books you drew inspiration from to see you through to the finish line or at least inspire you to get started? Yeah, that's a great question. Well, let's see. there's ah There's a few. Actually, some of the folks that I worked with, at including my agent, who's also an author, Laura Love, she wrote a book called The Many Lives of Mama Love, which I absolutely love that book. It's such a beautiful memoir. And so reading books like that really inspired me. Of course, books like Educated,
00:07:33
Speaker
you know, Glass Castle, Eat, Pray, Love from all the way in the day. I feel like my story is akin to that in a way, but with a surfboard and a and a healing journey. yeah, those are some of the books.
00:07:46
Speaker
Yeah. And when, ah what was it about them in particular that, that resonated with you? I just love the spirit of, i think, ah adventure, you know, in the Eat, Pray, Love Story that I read so many years, like 20 years ago. um and there's something about bringing together both moments that, you know, are very profound and tender um with humor and being able to bring that all together. I think Laura does that so beautifully.
00:08:14
Speaker
in her memoir as well. And then, you know, I think some other ah books, just writing about like the way people wrote about difficult experiences, just kind of learning from from that and the vulnerability around that was really helpful.
00:08:30
Speaker
When you're like sitting down to to write, it always helps to have some degree of a practice, a routine of sorts. um You know, some people can be kind of willy nilly about it. And um I find that it's helpful to have more structure around that. I wonder for you, like what is the kind of practice that that you have ah abided and when you're looking to generate pages?
00:08:50
Speaker
Let's see, i really found it was important to just set aside like a block of time that I could really get into the flow. Do you know what i mean? Like, I feel like writing correct correct really requires your full focus and your creative brain to be online. And for a lot of the work I do like professionally with my company, that's more like my task-oriented brain. So I'm like quickly shifting from one thing to the next and just kind of ah clicking taking things off my task list. Whereas with writing, i needed to be in a more like expansive space. And so what I really found helpful was just like,
00:09:27
Speaker
but blocking off at least five or six hours, certain days where I could do that. And then finding ah places that were really inspiring to me. And i actually did a lot of writing in my hawaii in Hawaii, which is looking at the ocean and being around the ocean is is just really helpful for me to get into like a calm, creative space. And it's actually why I ultimately ended up moving to Hawaii two years ago.
00:09:53
Speaker
Yeah. How important is the ocean in the water to you? Oh, it's everything. It's like my greatest healer, teacher, you know, all of it. And so I'm in the water almost every day. Now in warm water before is in very cold water in California. so I'm happy I don't have to wear a wetsuit anymore. But that was it's it's just such a healing process for me. And I surf, I'm obsessed with surfing. So that's just something I do as a physical sport, but it also is a life philosophy in many ways. And I have this practice now where after my surf sessions every day, I just, I float and I take a moment to slow down.
00:10:33
Speaker
i just feel the embrace of the water. And I watched the clouds change shape. I listened the sand, ah kind of you know the sound of the sand beneath me as it moves around on the ocean floor. So just it's that moment of really pausing, finding stillness, being in total presence. I feel like that is actually what helps me to get to a creative space.
00:10:59
Speaker
Yeah, what I've read a lot about surfing, you know, ah Bill Finnegan. Oh my God. William Finnegan, yes. Yeah, ah his, you Barbarian Days, which is like just an amazing, amazing book. And like a lot of people write so eloquently about surfing. And, you know, what is it about you know surfing that is so that it maybe it draws obsessives
The Connection Between Surfing and Writing
00:11:21
Speaker
and is just an obsession unto itself, really?
00:11:26
Speaker
Well, I think there's many things. There's just the act of of riding a wave is so fun. There's nothing more freeing or enjoyable. It like literally feels like you're flying. And so it's just really just pure joy and play. That's part of it. And then it's so challenging, right? It's the only sport, if you think about it, where your medium is constantly shifting.
00:11:51
Speaker
Like no two waves are the same. Waves don't really break in the exact same place. And so, you know, in a two two hour session, if you had a good session, the total amount of time you're actually on a wave.
00:12:08
Speaker
And let's say you catch 10 waves, right? In two hour session, maybe you're on waves for 30 seconds. That's what it kind of amounts to. and so the time you're on the wave is actually very, very little. So what that means is the rest of the time, what are you doing? Well, you're observing, you're taking in the ocean, you're understanding its patterns. Like surfing is just as much about understanding as it is about doing.
00:12:32
Speaker
And I think a lot of people don't realize that. And so that's really interesting. And then it's you know this idea of variable rewards. you know like You never know when the wave's going to show up. And so it's got this like addictive nature. But it's just like one of these sports that's so, so challenging and hard to master that you're constantly learning. And I think that's what makes it so addictive as well. it's just like you're always wanting to learn, progress, and then the reward is that you get to fly. Yeah. That sounds a lot like writing, doesn't it?
00:13:03
Speaker
Um, I don't know. I'm not sure. I've never made that parallel, but but yeah, I could see parts of that. Yeah. I'm just thinking if you're sitting in a, in a writing session for, let's say two hours and you can can really catch on something that is, uh, get that, that, that flow state is such a ah small fraction of the entire time that you're in that pocket. And, and there is a lot of surrendering to things that are around you and like, you don't know what's coming and no two sessions are alike, but you know, you try to control you can control, but eventually you do have to just kind of surrender to the elements.
00:13:42
Speaker
Yes. Yes. I guess the difference is you're not going to face plant when you are writing. Yeah, that's, ah yeah, and when you were, like, when you, you know, start a a writing project, like, where did you you, know, seek that the degree of inspiration that would kind of ah sustain you over the course of an entire project?
00:14:05
Speaker
You know, it was interesting because if someone had approached me to write a book years ago, there had been a piece about my work in the New York Times with my with the company I started, which builds baby incubators for preemies. And at the time, I was like, I'd never even thought about writing a book. And I was like, oh, okay, that's interesting, kind of sat with me. But then I didn't i didn't pursue it.
Inspiration Behind the Memoir
00:14:24
Speaker
And then, you know, all these things happened. with my My company nearly shut down. i went on this like...
00:14:30
Speaker
intense global healing journey. And at the end of it, I thought, oh my gosh, that's the story I want to tell. Then it felt right. And so I think I felt inspired to tell a story that could really help people.
00:14:46
Speaker
And I think that's what like kind of kept me going the whole time was having that true north. Like, why are you doing this? Why are you writing this? Right. And every time I felt frustrated, I'd come back to, okay this is what this is in service of. In fact, I even wrote like a just like a two page letter to myself about what the intention for the book was. And that was incredibly helpful.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah, that gets to yeah this idea of you know writing a memoir can feel very self-indulgent. I would task anyone to write it, but it's another thing to write it and then want to publish it. And then you have to start thinking like, well, what's this for? What is it really for? yeah Not that you have it in front of you, but what were some those intentions in that letter you wrote for yourself? So this thing had something of a, it was of service.
00:15:36
Speaker
Yeah, it was of service. I really felt like you know my story is about this. It's the story of my company and building the company and the impact that was made. But more importantly, it's the story of what happened when it all came crumbling down 10 years in.
00:15:50
Speaker
And that sent me on a healing journey in which I finally had to confront some really difficult things from my childhood. I'd grown up with with a lot of um violence in my childhood.
00:16:04
Speaker
And I had never connected the dots that it was feeling so powerless throughout my childhood. That's what had motivated me to help the most powerless people in the world. But it had also driven me to work in such unhealthy ways, just to the point of complete burnout, such that at that 10 year mark, i was I had a complete mental and physical breakdown.
00:16:25
Speaker
Coming out of that, i learned so much. And my intention was to share everything I'd learned with others who had been through similar challenges so that they could find hope and healing and self-compassion.
00:16:41
Speaker
you know And I think, it's yes, it's for these individuals, but on a broader level, I started to think about like what is happening in our society. and We live in such a fractured world today.
00:16:52
Speaker
So often we can operate from a place of fear and ego and control, right? When we don't address or acknowledge some of the wounds that are driving us ah When we do that, when we can learn to have self-compassion, actually, then we can treat others with compassion more easily. We can extend that outwards.
00:17:14
Speaker
Then we can act from a place of love and shared purpose. And so it started just really, i started to just connect all these dots and it made me feel like, gosh, this is a story that I want to tell because I think it can help both at an individual And at a societal level. And I think this is the most important work I'm going to do in my life.
00:17:35
Speaker
The irony of that, that yeah so we've never been more connected, really, a sense. But you said that we're that we're never been more fractured at the same time.
00:17:47
Speaker
Totally. Yeah. and And it's like, I think we're connected kind of on this surface level, but we're not deeply connected. And so loneliness, you know, even though we're so connected, the feeling of of loneliness is so pervasive, you know, and I think people are just so can be very self-righteous, myself included at times, you know, but that we stand firm.
00:18:09
Speaker
And our views. And so we're we just are in this society right now where we're more and more polarized.
The Role of Self-Compassion and Healing
00:18:15
Speaker
And again, I think when we start to and and there's research on self compassion that shows this, that when we have that compassion for ourselves, we are also more willing to listen to other points of view.
00:18:28
Speaker
We're willing to be more humble. um You know, there's something really beautiful about this practice. and And this is what I learned in my journey, you know, that I was so hard on myself and what I saw was that I was acting from a place of like, even though I cared so much about my mission. but also I just never believed that I was enough.
00:18:47
Speaker
And so I had to constantly do more and more and more. And the goalposts kept moving to the point where I just burned out, you know, and I'm proud to say that Embrace today, we've helped over a million babies, ah but I did not do that in a sustainable way because I completely burned out in the process. And so now that I have these these tools to care for myself better, i think I can make greater impact in the long run.
00:19:14
Speaker
Yeah, this hyper achievement like is you know so um you sort of tethered to really your origin story in this. it was just like, it was the way to find worth, a way to be seen, and especially in our sort of hyper capitalistic culture too, which it's like a achieve, achieve, achieve. Yes. And it's just like, what is the, yeah, the, you can speak to this personally, like, what is the the damage of this constant sort of hedonic achievement that's always, always yeah changing? though Like you said, the goalposts keep moving.
00:19:47
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think this is why part of what's driving this mental health crisis, right? We see burnout and anxiety levels are at epidemic levels. levels today. i mean, it's crazy when you look at the statistics. So, well, why is that happening? And I think this is what's happening is like our whole sense of worth is predicated on external success, right? So everything from what we achieved to what we look like, and I think social media is just further further amplifying this. So we think we have to do a certain thing or or look a certain way or get, you know, X number of likes on TikTok or Instagram or whatever, like that's going to make us feel worthy. So then our sense of of self becomes so fragile because it's dictated on things that we cannot control.
00:20:34
Speaker
right Whereas I think when we start to look inward and we start to understand, oh, I have innate worthiness that's not tethered to my external success, then we have this grounding. And you know what? When we have that grounding, it gives us the courage to take more risks, actually, right because if we go out there and do something and if we fail, God forbid, like we're going to be okay because we have that inner sense of worthiness. And I think it allows for greater connection and it it allows us to live by our values instead of what we think everyone else is going to approve of. And so I just really think that's fundamental to all of us living healthier lives.
00:21:20
Speaker
Right. Well, and you you grew up with a certain set of values and then had to really reconcile you know your changing values and your maturation around it. So just how did you, you what was that central tension of you know how you how you grew up versus what you matured into?
Pursuing Passion vs. Family Expectations
00:21:38
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think so much of my upbringing was about... i about seeing my achievements as the way to to earn love. you know I wouldn't have known how to articulate that when I was younger, but that's kind of what I was trained. like If you succeed, if you're successful, if you achieve, then you're worthy, then you're loved. right and so In many ways, I went against the grain of what my parents wanted. They really wanted me. I'm a first-generation Taiwanese American immigrant. They really wanted me to be a doctor or to get you know a big corporate job. And instead, i went into the nonprofit world. you know I started a social enterprise. I moved to India to do this work. like it was It was very much against, and they were not against what they wanted. and They were not happy with my decisions, but I felt very strongly about
00:22:27
Speaker
my work and it was purpose driven work. And so I went after it. However, even within that, that I felt like I needed to make that a success. And maybe in some ways, the pressure was even higher because I'd gone against what my family wanted. And so there's an even bigger pressure to make sure that it was successful. You know, and so it's there's it's multifaceted. It's like I cared so much about my work and I wanted it so badly to have a certain outcome. And so when we came across so many challenges, mean, we were doing, and when I think back now, just like one of the hardest things in the world, probably, were developing a brand new product, an incubator for babies, trying to serve the like the poorest communities in the world you know with a medical device that initially none of ah of us had any experience doing this. So we were just like we took on a huge, enormous task and did it in some of the hardest places in the world to operate in.
00:23:24
Speaker
And so of course we were gonna hit so many challenges, but I took each of those as like a personal failure almost. And I just worked myself to death, like those, especially those first couple years living in India, and never took a weekend off. I worked 15 hour days. I was just on all the time.
00:23:45
Speaker
And by, i would say like four years in I was wiped, but I couldn't stop. And so at 10 years in, i Like I said, i i really i really broke down. i was having panic attacks. I was depressed. like I didn't even know i was capable of getting to such a fragile state.
00:24:06
Speaker
And so my hope is that no one has to get to that point. And that's part of part of what this book is about. Yeah, well and Seth Godin writes about ah sunk costs a lot. And I suspect that when you've invested so much of your time and money and resources and energy into something, be it a year or 10 years, the idea of quitting is such, it's antithetical. You're like, oh my God, what all that time you spent, all that money, all the expectations, your identity and failure and in a sense of failure is so tethered and success is so tethered to that thing. It's- um Yeah, yeah.
00:24:42
Speaker
It's right really hard to to break from that. it's just How did you end up breaking from that? Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. It wasn't just about... success, it was that my identity was wrapped up in this thing. I was the incubator lady, like, right? Like, with every award or you know, press coverage, whatever, I was like, my identity was getting more and more intertwined with this thing. I didn't know where I began and the company ended, right? It was just all so enmeshed.
00:25:17
Speaker
And so you asked how I separated from that. Well, I didn't have a choice. i was forced to do that when the company shut down. And basically we just kept facing one challenge after the next, after the next. And eventually we ran out of funding and like we had to shut down the company. So I didn't have a choice at that point.
Challenges and Healing Journey at Embrace Global
00:25:36
Speaker
And I was devastated. It really was like rock bottom for me, right? I'd poured a decade of my heart and soul at that point into this work.
00:25:45
Speaker
And so that's kind of what, in that point, at that point of despair, i thought I have to get away from everything to find myself again. And so that's what set me off on a healing journey. I booked a one-way ticket to Indonesia and I thought, I'm just going to go surf. I'm going to look like try every healing modality I could find, and then we'll see what happens. And when I look back now, and this was what 2018 that happened. So like eight years ago, when I look back now,
00:26:15
Speaker
It was the greatest gift of my life. Hitting rock bottom was truly the biggest great gift of my life because if i had if that hadn't happened, i would have never gone on the journey I went on to really understand what had been driving me, you know to ah to to finally establish a sense of deeper self-love and self-compassion and worthiness. And just all of the things I needed to put in place to find happiness in the long run. Right. And then that enabled me to, to write this book. So my whole life changed at that point. I could, I would have never wished that on anybody. And I could not have ever seen that in the moment. It's been really cool to actually launch the book and think back to that moment in 2018, where I'm sitting in my living room and I'm just in like complete despair to eight years later, like launching the book, giving a Ted talk about the subject, and then really
00:27:11
Speaker
being able to help other people through the message. And that I would say has been the the most rewarding part of this journey. Like I get notes almost every day from someone who says, thank you for sharing your story and here's how it's helped me. And and every time I hear that, I'm like, okay, yes, like I did the right thing. yeah Yeah. Well, what was it like for you having to revisit so much of the the sort of the original trauma of your childhood and even just the through your young adulthood of embrace and the ups and downs of that, having to go back into that, into the the swamp of it and relive it in a lot of ways? What was that like?
00:27:52
Speaker
It was really hard. um I think the childhood stuff, especially because I always say this, I think to be a good writer, you have to really get into the visceral parts of the experience, right? You have to bring someone into that experience with you, which requires you to go back and like really understand every detail, every memory, all of like the visceral aspects of the experience, this the sounds, the smells, like everything that was happening.
00:28:19
Speaker
And so when you're doing that with some difficult memories, like i there would be days where I just like cry every day. you know That's why it's so helpful for me to get in the ocean and cleanse and just like,
00:28:30
Speaker
try to soothe myself, but there were days that was like very, very, very, very hard. um And the thing about writing is when you're putting these difficult experiences on the page,
00:28:43
Speaker
you can't run away from it anymore. Right? It's like staring you in the face over and over and over again. and so it it was beautiful and cathartic all at the same time. And and then the other thing writing does, you you zoom in and then you zoom out, right? So it also helps you to look at your life from this 30,000 foot level and see, okay, here are how all the pieces connected. And in my own story, in my writing, I really wanted to understand my parents' stories and the story of my ancestors really. And so I go back into the history of Taiwan, and the history of Japan, all the things that happened that led to my parents having the upbringings they did and then ultimately moving us to America. And so that was really deeply impactful for me to understand, like, these are all the things that got me to this point. And it actually gave me a great deal of compassion for my parents and for my family. And so I'm so grateful. It's very interesting, you know, Bessel van der Kolk is the author of The Body Keeps the Score, and he's someone I've had the great fortune to work with. I write a lot about him in the book. One of the things Bessel says about trauma
00:29:54
Speaker
or the way trauma works in the brain, is that the way you heal from trauma is when your brain can finally put the past in the past, right? That we relive our trauma when we recall an experience and we have kind of all the same physiological responses that we had back then.
00:30:15
Speaker
we we have them in the present today. So it's the way you bring the past into the present. And healing happens when you can keep the past in the past, when you can acknowledge, yeah, that was difficult. It was really hard and it happened back then.
00:30:30
Speaker
And there's something about writing that allows you to do that, right? That you you relive it, you rehash it, you go into all the details, you start to connect how all the pieces came together. And then ultimately you get to this point where you're like,
00:30:45
Speaker
Okay, that was in the past. I've written about it in these six chapters. Now we're going to move on. Yeah. And there's on the other side of it, sometimes writing it, and I've kept a journal for, gosh, almost 30 years now. Like I've just had almost a daily journal for that long. Sometimes I feel like the the various degrees of negative self-talk that I've engaged in over the years, and it's just in my nature, unfortunately, but I feel like sometimes writing it and being true and authentic, even in the privacy of my own pages, is almost ossifying that behavior.
00:31:20
Speaker
And not leaving certain things in the past. And then I constantly relive things over and over again. And I wonder just for you, like, this is great. Like you, you know, the writing was a great ah exercise in leaving that behind and putting the, keeping the past in the past. But did you wrestle with maybe the fact of like making it archival, making it right, writing it down it in a sense was imprinting it more, if that makes any sense. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, it wasn't. i think you I think there's probably a process where, you know, that can happen and initially. And but and you can it's one of those things you kind of have to stay with.
00:31:57
Speaker
And ah the more i think the I think the more you kind of stay with it. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, honestly, I was also doing a lot of therapy at that time. So that was helping me to process in another way. And then I said, I think like what I said was really helpful in terms of like having the combination of going back and rehashing, but then like taking a step back and seeing, okay, where is my life today?
00:32:23
Speaker
And what are the things that have happened between now and then that have allowed me to kind of see things in a different way? And so I would say one really important part of that is not just like the rehashing of the details, but then like really kind of reflecting, like kind of making sense of of all of what happened, right? and And being able to maybe put a new lens on that. So, right. So it's not just about the rehashing of details, but like one of the things I said earlier was If I were just to rewrite what happened in 2018, just as an example of when my company was shutting down, it was just like, it was awful. I felt terrible. Like I said, was having panic attacks. I was in this like really, really dark place. And if I just kept writing about that moment, yeah, that would feel like it kind of sucked, right? But when I can look at it from the lens of today and I can see, oh wow, actually my biggest challenges became the biggest gifts in my life. Even what I experienced as a child, which was so difficult, that ultimately
Understanding Family and Societal Context
00:33:24
Speaker
led me to start my company. Because as I said, it was feeling so powerless through my childhood, really gave me that drive to help the most powerless people. And so one of um the teachers I had a chance to learn from was Tony Robbins. And he's this great quote. He says, um life happens for you, not to you.
00:33:43
Speaker
Right. And so when I started to take that lens and I could see, okay, how did those challenges and difficult moments actually end up becoming my greatest teachers and gifts, then I could see it in like a totally new way.
00:33:58
Speaker
A moment ago, you said something, hey how you went, basically you found the compassion for your parents too, through this generational trauma. How did you reach the, go from the anger and the resentment to finding that compassion?
00:34:13
Speaker
um I think it was like a bunch of things. One was like really understanding their histories, the way they grew up. I mean, I think i think that shaped so many of us. And and so understanding the history of of Taiwan, where I was born, Taiwan was under martial law for 38 years.
00:34:32
Speaker
That's the Taiwan my parents were born into. And in that time, hundreds of thousands of people were killed, raped, raped, ah imprisoned for no reason. There was just complete oppression on every level. right And so I started to understand, wow, this is the way violence trickles into societies, into family systems, and and into my own family. And so I really saw from kind of a historical perspective of was happening, the way that they were raised, the things that they, you know, they were trying to do their best in many ways. And they also showed love. And that's something I really wanted to show in this book. You know, when I set out to write it, I thought I want to portray every character with love and compassion. That was really, really important to me. And I want to tell the truth.
00:35:23
Speaker
So how do you do both of those things simultaneously?
Writing About Family with Love and Truth
00:35:26
Speaker
Right. And We know that no one is all bad or all good. We're all very complicated people. And so that's something I felt really important to to write as I characterized my parents and my and my family to write about all the aspects of them, how incredibly generous and caring my father could be.
00:35:46
Speaker
but how he could also get really angry and you know and how those exist simultaneously. And I think we all can relate to that, right? There's all these different facets of our personality. And so that was really important for me to show that it was not all bad or all good, but just really complicated and messy. And that's that is the human experience.
00:36:09
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Well, writing about family can be very tricky in that regard. So like, how did you strike that balance of, you know trying to write truthfully and transparently, but also, you know, guarding them, you know, from being just completely and totally eviscerated, um you know, by by their child or, you know, and your sisters as well.
00:36:31
Speaker
Like I said, I really, that was like my intent. So it was really great to have that intent upfront. It was the thing that worried me the most because I'm writing about, you know, some really difficult experiences. And so um that's why I really tried to, A, like, as I wrote about the difficult things, like really stay with the the facts, meaning like what I was feeling, what I was experiencing, not really attribute anything to intentions. Like, like my parents did this because they were mean or evil or what. it and there There's none of that in the book. And when you read it, it's really just sticking to like, what was my experience in the moment? Maybe the ways that, you know, I try to to kind of make sense of that, but then showing like also like the full characters of, of people, right. The, and, and there's, and so you'll see just a lot of like tender loving moments in there. as well So I think it was that it was like speaking the truth in terms of what I experienced and then trying to connect the dots in terms of like the way it affected me the way I made sense of it, but not really attributing like what was someone's intention, because I know my parents weren't trying to harm me that was never their intention. And then portraying the fullness of their characters. So that that was that was how I went about it.
00:37:50
Speaker
And when you're ah writing ah the book and you're deciding what to keep in and keep out, you know, what was the, you know doing the math of what stays in the book and maybe what what was in early drafts and came out, you know, how did you make those decisions as youre you were, know, say rewriting the book too?
00:38:09
Speaker
I, that's a good question. That was really, my literary agent was so helpful in that. And i had a collaborative writer as well, who was incredible. And so we would go through and try to understand, like, you know, there's so many chapters that didn't make it into the book, but we try to figure out like, what is really serving the arc of the story, right?
Deciding Memoir Content
00:38:26
Speaker
What is helping to generate momentum and what are the the stories or the details that allow for that character development? So there's like a lot of things that didn't didn't make the story, unfortunately. And we had to be like, just really thoughtful about what to cut and what to keep in. It's a pretty long it's a pretty long book, although i think it's ah it's a fairly fast read. And so a lot of it was just kind of in service of like, what what helps the story come alive? What builds momentum? What helps to bring the readers into the story? What helps to like
00:38:59
Speaker
paint these characters, as I said, as like full people? What were the moments that like truly had meaning for me? Like one of the things I write about, for example, is my psychedelic experiences.
00:39:10
Speaker
Those are really, really, really hard to write about. And we went back and forth on that, my collaborative writer. And she's like, this is really hard because it's almost like it's why writing about dreams is so hard. Because you're in someone like someone's internal landscape. But those experiences were like incredibly meaningful to me. And so I i really felt like I wanted to include them. And we did ultimately.
00:39:31
Speaker
And I've gotten good feedback on them, but like, it was just like that, that was the thing I had to figure out, like, a what was really meaningful to me. And then if the purpose of this book is to help people, what are the things in here that are going to help people? And what I wanted was like, the reason I chose to write a memoir and not a self-help book is because I wanted to write a story that was not prescriptive.
00:39:55
Speaker
I don't think like there's a one size fits all for healing. So I think the best thing I could do is say, here is my experience. And I wrote stories that people could take something away from, right? Stories that I felt like were universal, where we've all had these moments of feeling like we're not enough, or we've all had a bad relationship experience or, you know, whatever it is. And so I tried to write the stories I felt could be you know very universal where people could take something away from that, but in a way that was not like, okay, reader, I'm telling you what to do here and go about it like this. it was more, this is just my experience and take from it what resonates with you.
00:40:37
Speaker
Yeah. When did the the shape of the book really start to coalesce for you? That's funny. It changed a lot. So in the beginning, when I first gave my proposal to my agent, she was like, it was such a funny story actually. So she, someone had made the introduction and she read it and she was actually just going to like wish me well and give me a couple tips and you know, whatever. But then we sat down, this was during COVID and I had just come out of a frog poisoning ceremony.
00:41:08
Speaker
not going to go into that. You'll read the book to to, to, to, to see what happens there. But anyway, so I don't, so many, yeah yeah. I go through like everything.
00:41:20
Speaker
So anyway, I had just burned like 14 holes in my leg. And so I had all these like little scars and so we, you know, we're having coffee and we kind of get to the end of the conversation. And I forgot how this came up, but I like showed her these 14 holes in my leg.
00:41:35
Speaker
And she was like so intrigued and fascinated. and I remember the next day she called me and she was like, okay, Jane, I am going to do a book with you. I'm going to bring a book into this world with you, but it's not the book you want.
00:41:48
Speaker
And if you're open to that, then I'll work with you. And I was like, yes, anything. Like I just knew I wanted to work with her. So she was like, at first it was like, had even more of the business story and more of the embrace story. And she was like, I want you to consolidate all of that. It's like one chapter or two chapters. You know, and so it's like, oh, my God, I'll try. And so anyway, we agreed to do this. Like she agreed to represent. me And so then we started working on like, what is the you know, what is the story here? Right. And at at the end, we came to a happy medium. I did not consolidate and break. It's too much of my life. I could not get into one or two chapters. It's about, I would say, a quarter of the book. Right. So it's not insignificant, but it's not the whole book. um And then we started working on like, what is the arc of the story? Like, what is what do we want to tell after that? Right? And how do we want to tell it? and And I went through so many healing experiences, like not all of them made the book, maybe 20% of them made the book.
Structuring a Memoir with Multiple Timelines
00:42:42
Speaker
And so we had to just figure out like, what are the ones that like are interesting, impactful? How do we tell those in a way that, you know, it's like not overly intellectual. So people are still getting something away from it, but you don't have to tell like every single thing, you know? So it was hard. And then writing about, I would say, yeah some of the stories like of the scenes of violence were really hard. So had to be thoughtful about what to include there. But the thing that was the hardest, I would say was
00:43:12
Speaker
how the timeline, meaning do we tell this book chronologically as events happened or do we kind of shift timelines back and forth? And so we played with that a lot.
00:43:26
Speaker
We even played with a structure where every chapter rotated between the past, my childhood, and the present. But we're working with three timelines in the book. There's the embrace story, the story of my company. There's my childhood story. Then there's my healing story. So how do we bring all of those together in a way that's compelling? And so I think we ended up in a good place, but that was one of the hardest parts of of writing the book.
00:43:51
Speaker
Yeah, there's a a moment early in the book that stuck out to me and it might have been an artifact of maybe ah a past structure. i think like I think it ends, chapter six ends and you're still a child, but then chapter seven starts and you're 21. And it's just like, oh, there's a big jump there. And I think that that's probably an artifact of you met messing around with the chronology.
00:44:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we wanted to. So like I thought about putting sections in the book, you know, which some people did. We we chose not to. And I'm glad we we did chose not to. But instead, what we try to do was when there is a shift to kind of have a chapter end in a way that you know, okay the next chapter, there's going to be a time jump and a shift. Right. So, for example, um ah I go to Indonesia, right? And that marks the the end of embrace and the beginning of the healing journey.
00:44:51
Speaker
And so the, art in the chapter before that to kind of show the reader, okay, we're moving into a new space now. I think the way we ended, I don't have the exact words in front of me, but I basically learned about this healer named Papa. He's like a foot reflexologist who like beats the shit out of your foot and he heals you. Right. And in Indonesia. And so I learned about him and I end that chapter by saying like something like I was willing to, um,
00:45:20
Speaker
like do anything to to to fix myself. And that belief would shape everything that came next. Right. And so we do try to use these subtle ways to kind of say, okay, now we're moving into anne next the next session next section of the book.
00:45:38
Speaker
And you go through so many different healing modalities that just in the book alone, you said that only like really scrapes the surface in a lot of ways. yeah Did you run into just in your own lived and personal experience that you were jumping from one to the next, maybe like, like almost too quickly, like not giving one a chance over another?
00:46:02
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes it was like, and so we have a book, a chapter called Spaghetti on the Wall, because it was just like, I'm going to just do everything. I had my spreadsheet. I was like, okay, i'm going to do this. If this doesn't feel right I'm going to do this and that. And I'd learn about, you know, something new. And I tried that. And I was just like, at one point, I had three therapists at the same time, because I was trying three different types of therapy. Like I was crazy, you know, and I'm very intense. So, you know, it it makes sense. But Yeah, but it was a lot. It was a lot and it was hard to write about. And it's, you know, it's very interesting because for people are not interested in the healing journey, okay, look, healing is not
Nonlinear Healing Journey
00:46:40
Speaker
linear. That's ah something very hard to capture, right? The building of the company was far more linear. It goes from like A to B to C. And of course we have these huge setbacks and da, da, da. Healing is like a very, very different kind of thing. And so I have made the mistake of reading some of the Goodreads reviews on my book. And most of them, I know, most of them are quite positive. But there's a few people who are like, well, I really love the Embrace story. But, you know, i felt like the healing story was like a little slower. Well, first of all if you're not into like hearing that kind of story, then this book isn't going to be for you. But also, one of the things I was intentionally trying to show was the nonlinear nature of this work. It's not a tidy path. It's not a neat bow. You know, you make progress and you think, oh, I'm healed. And then you realize, oh gosh, I'm really not. And then you try something else. And so that was actually quite intentional to show people like, here's, here's like the real life version, not the fairytale version of how this goes. Yeah. Yeah. I love the line where you had like ah like ah yeah the Avengers of trauma support. yeah and i just i love I just love the imagery of that. It's just like everyone has their own little strengths and their own voice. And it's a matter of like locking into which one or maybe, you know, all six of them are going to help contribute in some meaningful way. Right. And that's the thing I ultimately wanted to show too, that like each of these things, yes, I got something really meaningful out of each teacher, each each experience, like that was all there. But it wasn't until I learned to have that love for myself that everything gelled.
00:48:22
Speaker
And of course, that's what all of this was was bringing me to. But ultimately, that all the answers I was seeking for in the world you know, and through every healing modality, all of that, I i really had to find within myself.
00:48:36
Speaker
And that is like the only sustainable way to to find healing is that we find those answers within ourselves. But I couldn't have done that without going through the whole journey. Yeah. When you're writing the the book, you know, we all hit ah a wall at some point. that There's a honeymoon period of any start of these projects. And then eventually the reality hits and you're like, yeah, I don't know how many dead books out there that are like 23 pages long and people are just like, fuck this. I'm done with this. But, you know, the to be ah to be a writer, to be a pro, you push through and you finish. So when you hit those walls and that doubt, the sluggishness that happens in the middle of a project to see it through, how yeah how did you push? through Yeah.
00:49:19
Speaker
Well, luckily, as I said, I had like a such a great support team. I had a collaborative writer. I had my agent. I mean, there were moments where I'd like, especially towards the end, where I'd call my agent and be like, should we just pull the
Overcoming Writing Blocks
00:49:31
Speaker
plug on this thing? You know, like, it's not too late. It's not in the world. i actually told that to my therapist. And this was like right before the book came out. And he said to me, this is Bessel van der Kolk. And he goes, the cervix is open.
00:49:45
Speaker
There's no going back. oh no. It's like cracking up. But yeah, there are those moments where you kind of hit a wall. And honestly, there were moments where I just had to take a break and and put it down for like weeks, maybe even a month, really. Like there are moments I could just get right every day and I get in the flow and I feel great. And there're there are moments where i was like, okay, I can't look at this for a while.
00:50:08
Speaker
So I think just taking those breaks is really important and building that in and knowing like you don't have to write every single day. I mean, some people do. I didn't. And it helped me to, you know, to not have to do that every day. And then, like I said, I think writing really comes from like flow state, creative state. So, and that's kind counter to a timeline and goals and like I have to get this many pages done by this time. So I would actually say you could keep your goals very broad, but the more you can move away from that almost, I think the better.
00:50:43
Speaker
You asked earlier too about like what were some rituals? Actually for me, music was really important. And there's certain songs that i would play or soundtracks i would like really kind of like kind of get me into, again, switch my brain from the over-intellectual part to more music and poetry and the more creative part of my brain. And then when I was in that state, like certain chapters or structures, I remember the epilogue just like all came to me in one sitting.
00:51:14
Speaker
And i was like, I just had a, like, and I had a vision for it. Like I i i could see, the waves coming in and I just had this whole like vision for it. And a lot of the best scenes in the book, I think, were like that.
00:51:29
Speaker
Like it was almost like I could see the movie, you know, and then I took those images and then I translated them into words. ah What was the the relationship and the partnership between you and the collaborative writer? How how did you work together?
00:51:46
Speaker
Oh, it was so awesome. Yeah, Nina was my collaborative writer. We, I mean, I think these work in different ways, but for some of it, like Nina, I would tell her stuff and she would write stuff and then, you know, I would review it and we'd go back and forth in that way. And then other parts of the book, say for like a good chunk of the book, like would write and then I would send it to my collaborative writer and she would take it and like help, you know, I'm not a professional writer, so it was really helpful to have her help me like reshape or recraft or polish the language into something more beautiful. And then we would kind of go back and forth like that. it was like truly a collaborative process. And I really, really appreciated and enjoyed that. mean, of course there was like very frustrating moments. I feel like, gosh, I know her now. She knows me now better than anyone in my life. Like she had to watch... therapy videos, and, you know, hear about every single part of my life. And so at this point, she's a sister to me, but it was just like such a cool process to get to do that with someone. And I there's no way I could have done this on my own. So I feel very, very lucky to have had that experience.
00:52:52
Speaker
Yeah, what was a a a great lesson or two or three that you took from that? Not being like a, let's say, a classically trained writer not you know you and then coming into this and writing the book with that partner. you know What have you learned so that you can like parlay that into the next one so it feels maybe a bit more ah skilled or elevated?
Lessons from Collaborating with a Writer
00:53:13
Speaker
I learned a lot of things. I would say through this process, I feel like, you know again, I'm not a professional writer, but I feel like I became a much better writer through this process. And some of the things I learned were, for example, i had never written I've never written anything that long. i've written a couple articles here and there, but nothing like this. And so one of the things that I feel like I really wanted...
00:53:33
Speaker
a book where people feel like they're there in the scene with you. That was really important. I had never done that kind of writing. So that's something I got to learn um through this process and through my collaborative writers. like we We set up a lot of scenes and dialogue and details and I really learned like what that was like to write a scene as opposed to just like in the moment as opposed to like looking back at a moment and telling what happened. So that was like really, really cool for me to to learn that kind of writing. And then again, the writing of like the more visceral experiences that was very new for me to get into like that level of detail, thinking about
00:54:14
Speaker
like what does it mean what does it mean to have a voice, right? And what does it mean to really tell the story in an artful way? one of the things my my my literary agent would say to me, and she's such a talented writer herself, she's written like six New York Times bestsellers, but she would say, like trust your reader.
00:54:32
Speaker
You don't have to be so explicit. You don't have to explain every single thing, like really trust your reader. And so I went back and I just noticed all the times we were like, foreshadowing or we would show something through a scene and then I'd have to like interpret, like kind of be explicit about what that meant to me. And just so I learned of a form of writing that was far more nuanced and therefore i think more elevated. And so I just, I'm so lucky i had the chance to work with like these two incredible writers.
00:55:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. it Speaking of that nuance and maybe giving credit to the reader, like I, my wife and I just watched the season two of Wednesday. know, we love season one, but like season two, like they are so explicitly saying things plot wise I understand. I think some of the writing nowadays is like they're assuming people are on their phones.
00:55:27
Speaker
And so they have to they have to spoon feed you so many story beats sometimes in back to back scenes. They're just repeating things. And it's just like, oh, my God. This is some bad TV writing, but I think it's just more endemic to our attention right now and that they're writing to that degree of audience. But it's just like they're not letting any nuance like ah ah speak for itself. They're just explicitly telling you various things. And it's like, oh, this is annoying. I don't i don't even want to watch season three.
00:55:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, that was like exactly what I didn't want to do. I didn't want to be like overly prescriptive. I don't want to like explain every single thing. I wanted there to be an element of poetry in what we were writing, right? And that, yeah, that the language felt really beautiful. And so, yeah, i it was interesting because when I read my audio book at the end, i I did the reading for it. So it was like a five-day process. That's the first time I had read the book end to end. And I've heard some people do that and they're like, you know, their first time they're like, oh, I didn't like my book. And I expected like maybe, you know, I'm very self-critical. So I thought I expected I'd come out of that process and be like, ah, you know, and truth be told, there were a number of typos, even in the final, final version, which drove me nuts. But I came out of that reading and I was like, you know what? I said everything I wanted to say, like this truly came from my heart.
00:56:50
Speaker
And that's one more thing I'll just say is like, As I was writing, you asked, what did i decide to keep in or keep out? I would actually tune into my body and feel does this feel aligned?
00:57:02
Speaker
Does this feel is this a story I want to tell? And when I when I when it was, I would have this certain feeling in my body kind of like, I don't know how to explain it exactly. But it was almost like this swirling energy, or something that felt very aligned, almost like a straight like, like, like, like energy going up and down my body. do you know what i mean? Like that made me feel like, okay, yeah, this feels really good. This feels like the the way I want to tell it or the story I want to tell. And so when I had that feeling, which is a somatic experience, as opposed to an intellectual experience, then I then I knew, like, that was the way I wanted a scene portrayed or told.
00:57:41
Speaker
Have your any of your family members read the book? Yeah, how they react to it? Different ways. You know, it's it was, it's tricky because my parents, their English is not their first language. So they're not fluent. So it's, you know, taking time to go through and having to use a translation tool. And in some ways I wish it was like translated first because you lose so much in translation. But my mom has said that, you know, at some part scenes are are hard to read. So she's going through it slowly.
00:58:10
Speaker
um But that when she gets to those parts, and I'm so grateful for her saying this, that she kind of puts down the book and she's like, okay, this is hard, but like, what do I get to learn from this? Right? So that I thought and that's just been such a beautiful thing to to hear and and and witness. And yeah, my sister, were like one of my sisters didn't read it until the book came out, another sister had chosen, I'd given both of them the option to read it early. And so my younger sister did read it early and was was really, really supportive, you know, and even reminding me of certain things that happened. And she, yeah, she read it like as it was almost done. And then she read it again um in its final version. And so she was really supportive and helped me think through
00:59:00
Speaker
like yeah what I wanted to include, how to address it. you know I decided that I was gonna really sit down with my parents closer to the end of the process so and explain. And they knew what I was doing all along, but I wasn't like super explicit about these are the things going in. So as I finished up the book, I i went to Taiwan where they are and I sat with them and and my sister came with me. was So I super, super generous in doing that. And we sat down and just really explained what was happening.
00:59:31
Speaker
And so it's something that is scary, as you can imagine. But I would say my parents have like been really supportive in the end, even though it's been a hard thing to write about. So I appreciate that a lot.
00:59:44
Speaker
Nice. Well, Jane, I want to be mindful of your time. And as I bring these conversations down for a landing, i always love asking the guests for a recommendation of some kind. of It's just like anything you're finding cool and fun um so for the listeners out there. So I would just extend that to you. What would you recommend for people out there?
00:59:59
Speaker
ah Something to do or like, you know, it could be a brand of socks, a coffee, a fanny pack, ah surfing. um Yeah, it's totally up to you.
01:00:11
Speaker
Okay, well, I would say what I what I said earlier, which is, I think has been one of the most like cool healing process with things I've done experiences, which I've built into my daily life, which is if you are near a body of water,
01:00:26
Speaker
Spend five minutes floating. Okay. And what that means is, first of all, you have to really relax to float, right? But if you're tensing up, you're not going to float. And and then really just focus on your breath, clear your mind and feel the support of the water as it embraces you.
01:00:49
Speaker
So that is something i am going
Floating in Water as Healing Practice
01:00:51
Speaker
to recommend. Oh, that's amazing. And in Hawaii, the last last time I was there, it was during humpback whale migration. Yeah. you talk about floating in the water, going underwater. You can hear the whales singing underwater, which is the most magical yeah thing in in the world.
01:01:07
Speaker
Oh, my God. I just had that experience a couple of weeks ago. Like it's whale season. So I went in. I couldn't see the whales. I could hear their songs under the water. And it was so magical. And then like a pod of 50 dolphins showed up.
01:01:21
Speaker
And I just got to swim with this pod of like 50 dolphins. It was so cool. It's wild. Oh, cool. Well, Jane, this was so great to talk a little shop and get to celebrate your book and your memoir. Yeah. So thank you so much for carving time to do this.
01:01:36
Speaker
I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Awesome.
01:01:46
Speaker
Thanks to Jane for stopping by to talk about her book. The name of it again is Like a Wave We Break. Show's Instagram handles at Creative Nonfiction Podcast. And you can always hit up the club at welcome to pitchclub.substack.com.
01:02:00
Speaker
And brendanomera.com. Why not? To sign up for the flagship rager peruse for hot blogs. You never know what you'll stumble upon. I figure I can jump in with a dog update. haven't done that in a while. You know, Kevin's doing okay. She's not limping the way she was several weeks ago or even a couple months ago. She gets around.
01:02:20
Speaker
She's slow on walks, but it's better than no walks at all. She kinda has a doddering way about her now. um She's old. You know, she's an old old old German shepherd, an old lady.
01:02:33
Speaker
But she's eating, and she can still somehow jump on our bed when she wants to, which I definitely don't encourage. Senior dogs can go from good to bad in like 36 hours, so I'm just enjoying my time with her as long as possible.
01:02:48
Speaker
A few months ago, I was feeling pretty bad about her health, but her net right now she seems pretty content. Her tail lags. She still loves to go for car rides, and her bark is as loud as ever.
01:03:00
Speaker
al Lachlan, his butt problems are still the stuff of legend. yeah After he had a massive abscess on his left anal gland, lanced and drained about six weeks ago, had to go to the emergency vet for that one. That was fun.
01:03:17
Speaker
six hours later, they finally took him. I was delirious because I was there at night from like eight in the morning till three, eight at night till three in the morning. It was those not fun. ah But the infection came back and um it's likely the poor guy has had like this low grade to high grade infection for a long time. Like they Anytime they're treating it, they're knocking out 99% of the bacteria, but that 1% hangs on and and then just propagates, right? Never fully knocked out. He might need to have his anal glands removed since he's had chronic issues with those for years.
01:03:55
Speaker
That could be a good $5,000. Nice. Love that. Love that for our credit card points. Love it. And our emergency fund. We routinely have to wipe his ass every time he comes back from going to the bathroom so he doesn't smear poo all over blankets and furniture. We were very clearly terrible people in a former life and just plain awful in this one.
01:04:19
Speaker
And so this is our punishment. We will never be free. We will never be happy. Hank is fine. His heart issues seem okay. The medicine's working there. So he's he's on the path to heart failure, but he's not there yet.
01:04:34
Speaker
We just run ah shelter of fucking derelict dogs here. Nobody is happy. My wife works so we can pay for the dog's care. That's it. This is not a great life and we brought it on ourselves.
01:04:47
Speaker
We are more than halfway through our lives and they have yet to begin. how to rebound from that? Fuck if I know. what um what are you whaty what a what a What are you doing? How how are you?
01:05:00
Speaker
How are you doing? How are you hanging in? It's really difficult to keep the spirits up these days. There are some content creators online that help me realign.
01:05:13
Speaker
That when I think of their posture and how they act in alignment with that posture, i tend to feel better. You know, if I can rhyme with what they're doing, I don't know.
01:05:27
Speaker
I'm especially drawn to this vegan chef, Derek Sarno, on YouTube. He's written the cookbook, Wicked Kitchen, with his brother. ah he helped Whole Foods develop a lot of plant-based recipes and such. I don't think he's associated with them many anymore, which is good because Whole Foods sucks. Anything Amazon touches turns to shit.
01:05:48
Speaker
Derek's posture is very relaxed and very kind. you know He's neat and he cleans as he goes. He's obsessive about a clean space. He's orderly and I'm not very relaxed. I'm certainly not the kindest in the world and I'm less orderly than I am kind. So you can understand why I dig the guy.
01:06:07
Speaker
I can always feel if i'm if I've been on my phone too much because I tend to feel rotten. Like I'm starting to rot from the inside out. It's like when you step in dog shit and track it all through the house and then it's like, oh, fuck. You got to start backtracking and cleaning and mopping and doing way more laundry than you had budgeted for.
01:06:29
Speaker
I've been trying to avoid the usual online trappings, trying to do more tactile things like zine making and collaging.
Tactile Creative Activities for Peace
01:06:36
Speaker
you know I've got a baller collage coming up that I'm looking forward to posting in March's Rager, but I'm happy to just make it. cutting out a bunch of shapes and shit. It's kind of fun.
01:06:47
Speaker
yeah When I lean into that stuff, which keeps me from comparing myself to others and feeling that competitive envy, jealousy streak from surfacing, ah I tend to feel a bit more at peace, fleeting as that might be.
01:06:59
Speaker
To feel any semblance of peace, there's about a dozen things that need to happen on a given day for me to feel like really knitted together, which rarely happens, which leads me to feel a great sense of malaise come about 12.30 and it just feels like everything's gone to shit.
01:07:19
Speaker
I either eat too much or don't drink enough water or I drink too much beer or I don't exercise or I don't read enough or I drink too much coffee and I'm tweaked out and then I don't sleep.
01:07:30
Speaker
Ever just want to feel okay and you can't get there? I'm not asking for much. In the grand scheme, I know how good I have it. Like I have a roof over my head. I've got food and clothes and clean water last I checked. So what right do I really have to complain about anything?
01:07:48
Speaker
yeah I need to get to the bottom of this deep well of dissatisfaction, a seeming feeling of not contributing enough or not being enough. you know Enough is the key word.
01:07:59
Speaker
like How do we find it? I don't want to go into minimum effective dose range with all the all those tech bro weirdos. ah But is there an enough effective dose? A minimum effective enough?
01:08:15
Speaker
A minimum enoughness? That's the quest, man. So stay wild. And if you can't do, interview. See ya.