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Be My Disappointed Dad
199 Plays3 months ago
In this debut episode of Pen Pals, Krisserin and Kelton launch their shared mission to support each other through the journey of publishing their first novels. While Kelton tracks her progress through word counts and steals writing moments between baby naps, Krisserin creates elaborate rituals with perfectly curated playlists and emotional support beverages to get into her creative zone.
The friends establish their weekly accountability system, with Kelton diving into her first novel filled with magic and mystery, and Krisserin tackling revisions on a critical first chapter for upcoming workshop submissions. Their honest conversation about writing processes and goal-setting sets the tone for a podcast dedicated to making the path to publication less solitary - and a lot more fun. Through their different approaches to the same dream, Krisserin and Kelton show that the journey to becoming a published novelist is better with a friend by your side.
Get in contact with us at: officialpenpalspod@gmail.com
Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios
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Transcript
Introduction and Writing Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah, I'm fried. How are you, Kelton? I'm deeply fried. I'm Kris Erin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first
00:00:22
Speaker
Yeah, which brings us to Episode 1, our 10th house. What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? I don't know. I feel like you and I both have such busy lives. And the times when we do connect, it is I feel like the first thing I text you when I haven't talked to you in a while is like, hey, how's writing going? Have you been writing? What's it like ah writing with a brand new baby? Do you find time? Do you have brain capacity? you know um These are also only questions that another writer can ask. like When someone asks me these questions, like, how's the novel going with the baby? And they're not a writer.
00:01:05
Speaker
I'm like, don't ask. But if you're ah another writer, you know already what the answer is. And that if if I say anything remotely positive, that that's a surprise and a delight moment for us both.
Pressures and Perceptions of Success
00:01:19
Speaker
um So when I get the question from you, I have this safe space to be like, it's going poorly, but actually. um And I just yeah, I mean, part of the reason that we're doing this is because we wanted to have those conversations between two, trying to be writers. writer who We're writers, but we're actually being workers. Most of our day is being workers yeah um and talking about how we make writing happen ah when so many other things in our lives are trying to take precedence. Yeah. It's nice to just have someone to check in on because I feel like when
00:01:59
Speaker
anyone who's not a writer asks me this question. And actually, to be honest, it's almost validating when people who aren't writers ask me this question because it feels like they are saying, I see that this is something that you're trying to do and I acknowledge it and I validate or it feels validating, you know? But then it also feels like, why are you asking? Why are you asking me? Why are you asking me? I don't know. What do you think is happening?
00:02:27
Speaker
No, it's not published yet. Can't you just self-publish? Shut up. shut god But yeah, I feel like having someone to check in on you and being able to be honest with them because it almost feels like when someone who's not a writer asks me that question, I have to come up with an answer that's not vulnerable. I can't be vulnerable and tell them I'm really struggling right now because they don't want to hear that. They just want to hear like, oh yeah, it's going great.
00:02:53
Speaker
You know, I'm writing all the time. It's amazing. But I can tell you, actually, I'm really struggling and I feel like it's going nowhere and I've lost all hope and I'm, you know, completely demoralized by the process of trying to queer invite an agent, you know? And it's like a lot of the times I find that the people in my life who are not writers, there's just no way for them to say the right thing.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah. Because it's always encouragement. And the encouragement always makes me want to like pull my eyelids off my eyes and just fillet them on the cutting board. like I'm like, please don't encourage me. It makes me feel like a child. This is some like stupid hobby I have. I know that's a me issue. I'm just going to write that down later for my therapist.
00:03:40
Speaker
but um Yeah, it's it's nicer when it's a it's someone who's doing the work alongside you. I guess there are times like when my friends who are musicians or painters, things like that, are like in that artistic grind, i I can take it from them. Because I'm like, you you get it. You're in it.
00:03:59
Speaker
yeah um But it is, it is hard. Don't ask me about the thing that may ah fills my life with me. Don't ask. but me right It's true, though. I think that other artists kind of understand other artists. Other artists understand um how hard it can
Writing for Personal Satisfaction
00:04:18
Speaker
be. And I think the thing that I'm trying to move into this year is focusing less on any type of success that comes with writing or accomplishment or achievement because I feel like when I think about those things all of the joy of writing just come completely abandons me and I feel like my work suffers and I forget why I do it you know I don't know about you but if I don't
00:04:46
Speaker
right for a certain period of time, my mental health is just absolute crap. And I feel like I'm just going through the motions of my day, whether it's work or childcare or taking care of the house. And I'm just, you know, living to service others rather than then living to fill myself up. yeah So um I'm trying to focus on that. I'm trying to focus on getting back to enjoying writing and doing it for myself and that feeling of solving a problem or putting down a sentence that feels really good or getting really excited about the characters that you're writing about. But it all goes back for me um and why I want to have these conversations with you to accountability, really, right? Having someone who you can talk to and check in with and um actually think through problems with writing, because I feel like that's something that you don't get a lot with them.
00:05:43
Speaker
other people is just, what are you working on? How's it going? What did you struggle with this week? What are you trying to get done this week? What are you hoping to
Balancing Writing with Life Responsibilities
00:05:52
Speaker
accomplish by next week? I think that that will be really helpful for me anyway. Yeah, i um I'm really good at holding myself accountable. What I am not good at is motivation toward bigger goals. um Like you know, I write a weekly newsletter. I've been doing that for three and a half-ish years now, and I i write it.
00:06:12
Speaker
Almost every Sunday, I think in total, excluding maternity leave that I forced myself to take from the newsletter, I think I have given myself eight weeks off out of the 70 to 80 weeks I've been writing it. um So like a good American, I only take a couple of weeks off every year. um But I need motivation to work on a much bigger goal. i So much of my writing and throughout my writing career has been instant gratification. I've written a lot of blogs um with like varying levels of popularity, and I never worked with an editor. I was always just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, publish. And that has worked for me in a lot of different ways, but it doesn't push my writing. It doesn't make me a better writer. And it
00:07:01
Speaker
is not directly laddering up to my big goal, which is to be a novelist. um I have tabled a lot of my own novels over the years. I have been working on, I think three, probably four different novels since 2014 when I really started diving into fiction. So that's over 10 years now. um And of course I was like, you know what, when I'm really gonna dig into writing a novel is when I have a baby.
00:07:29
Speaker
I'm just like, what was wrong with me? I had all these 10 years without a baby to be working on this. And now I have a seventh month old and I'm just like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna write the novel. um But I have had the most success I've had so far in digging into it. And I just, I need someone to be like, write the fucking novel, Kelton. And so that's partially why I'm here because I know you will say literally that to me.
00:07:56
Speaker
If you want me to verbatim, I can say that. That's not interesting because um if you think about the output that you've done in three years with your newsletter, which is not by any means, I mean, if if people who are listening haven't subscribed to your newsletter and haven't read it, it's not a small feat. It is beautiful essays written every single week that are thoughtful and um you know vulnerable and all the things that I could I could never do I could never write an essay I have to I try and distance I'm such a coward I distance my personal feelings and myself from my writing as much as I can I mean it's all filtered through a different perspective I'm trying to write in first person right now and it's nearly impossible but if you think about the amount of words you've written in three years of a newsletter it's got to be a couple novels
00:08:54
Speaker
Oh yeah, it's I think over 300,000 words now. if you know know Three long novels. Three long ass novels. um so what You think that's keeping you because you did go on maternity leave and took a break from writing the newsletter. Do you think that that time that you weren't committed to having to have weekly output let you step back and start thinking about the novel that you wanted to work on?
00:09:24
Speaker
Oh, certainly. um I was taking a lot of walks through the woods here. um I raise my eyebrows, because woods is the name of my child now. But when I'm walking through the woods, I talk to myself. I talk to myself every opportunity I get in life. I love talking to myself. And it's how I build dialogue and stories. I live in the middle of nowhere. There's like nobody here. So I can just yammer, yap, and yammer away. Literally, like, out loud you talk. Oh, out loud. Out loud. I'm like having like dialogue between characters out loud. Because that's sort of how I get to know my characters is that they like, top I mean, it sounds like I have some sort of mental disorder and I have several but not this one. That's how I get to know them is like they're their voices and the things they're talking about and the things that bother them and how they talk to each other. Dialogue is my favorite thing to write, um ah which is, you know, amazing because there's almost like none in my newsletter.
00:10:26
Speaker
Occasionally it gets in there. Occasionally I'll include a conversation, but, um, having that time to just go on walks and like tell stories to myself and to my unborn child, uh, it was a great time to step away from the, like, what am I writing this week? What am I writing this week? What am I writing this week to just like have some fun with some characters? And that is when they came to fruition for me is when I was just, you know, holding that baby.
00:10:56
Speaker
I, first of all, I think it's incredible that you, you speak your book into existence. Um, well, we've spoken it into a an idea. but Well, I think so much about being a writer and a mother is finding those times in between the busy times to get words on a page or to get some writing done. So as you are, I mean, what's the seven months now he's going to be,
00:11:25
Speaker
I don't want to scare you. He's going to be a year old soon and you know you're probably going to start working again. You still have your newsletter. When are you going to find the time? Well, I have three clients that I work for right now. I write two editions of the newsletter per week.
00:11:44
Speaker
um And then there's the baby. We don't have any childcare. So none of our family lives here and we can't get into any of the daycares. And so it's probably gonna be at least another year, it seems like, until we move up the wait list. So my husband Ben and I trade off with the baby. And so far when I find the time, it is the time I used to to use to exercise.
00:12:13
Speaker
um And I just, there had to be a sacrifice. Something had to get cut. And it was movement. And like, you know, movement is a huge part of my life. um I was a sponsored cyclist for a long time. I'm a trail runner, a hiker, a mountain biker, a skier. And I just was like, you know what, babe, if you want to write a book, you can write a book.
00:12:35
Speaker
I think you can do it in five months like the first rough shitty draft and then you can get fit in the five months after if you wanted to. I can always get fit again but I kind of have to stop doing something to give myself the time to write this book.
00:12:52
Speaker
And like I'm moving so much during the day anyways with the baby and like essentially weightlifting that I still feel embodied I feel in my body and i know I know when I get too far from that place that it's like go for the walk But right now that's what I tabled and so that gives me an extra hour a day and then whenever the baby goes to sleep He has, right now he's holding me hostage when he goes to sleep. He like knows if I leave his side. So I just leave the computer in the bed. And then when he goes to sleep in between nursing's, I just turn to the computer and like. chatter tata
00:13:36
Speaker
And i you know and like lastly, I want to shout out that Ben is also great when I'm like, I need an hour uninterrupted today where like I don't care if he's hungry. I don't care if he misses me. I care. I care. But like keep him away from me. Go outside. Just let me do one hour. Because Ben does get uninterrupted work. He is a woodworker. He can't have the baby when he's working. like it's even if He was just like lightly tapping a nail. It's like there's too many chemicals in the wood shop. Too much sawdust. The baby's not allowed in there. ah So, you know, how do I find the time? um I drag it out of the system. I love that. um I'm the same way with my kids. Well, when I was working full time, I'm not working full time right now.
00:14:27
Speaker
I did most of my writing on the weekends and I would sit in the garage and try and get hours of work done. And I would, but my kids know where I am. And especially, you know, um, my youngest wants me. She's a Velcro baby right now. So she, she will literally open the door and say, I want you. And part of me is like, I don't know how long that's going to last, you know? And it's so sweet. And she just wants to be next to me. Um, but sometimes I have to say, I love you. Go away.
00:14:57
Speaker
Which is such a horrible, horrible feeling. When they grow up, is this what they're going to talk to their therapist about? Like, my mom didn't want to spend time with me when I was little. um But because I remember with my mom, my mom's also a writer, there would be times when I was young where she needed space and I didn't understand that. And I remember feeling hurt by it and feeling rejected by it. um But now that I'm a mother and I'm an adult, I understand that need to feel like an auto autonomous buts human being, to feel like I am my own person and to have
00:15:42
Speaker
physical space from people and mental space from from people, even if they're the people I love the most in the world. you know um So for me, the ah the struggle has been, you know can I find quiet time, quiet uninterrupted time where I can focus on my book? Because it's not just um sitting in front of the computer and well looking at the words on the page. Because if there are interruptions,
00:16:11
Speaker
you know, even if it's like my phone, a notification goes off or something, my mind spirals out and I have to kind of refocus my my energies and my brain power on what I'm working on. And, um you know, like I said, my mom's a writer and she was um listening to something that Margaret Atwood said, which was basically if you are married and if you have children and you're a writer, you are going to have to deal with interruption. I feel like it is,
00:16:39
Speaker
um it It is unfair in some senses that we get robbed of that kind of like singular time and focus, but I guess that's just what it is when you're a mom and you have other people who are are relying on you. And there's something very nice about wanting, about feeling needed, you know? Yeah. And I think it's been a model to my girls, you know, that it's okay when they get older, if they decide to have children or get married.
00:17:09
Speaker
Um, which at this point they don't want to have kids. And I was like, what am I doing wrong? No. Um, they never want to leave home. It's great. But, uh, I want them to know that it's important to take time for yourself.
Personal Space and Self-Care in Writing
00:17:20
Speaker
I think that even though when I was little, I didn't understand that when my mom wanted space, I think it's because she did that. That now I feel like it's okay for me to do the same thing, you know? So I want to give that to them as well.
00:17:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really beautiful to to show them that you're a full person who needs these things. It's funny, as a kid, I was very much like, ah can everybody just leave me alone? Like, can I just have my space? Like, we joke about how I went. I think I was seven when I was like, ah i was I ran away um because I was just like. Seven? Well, I left them a note that was like, I've got it from here.
00:18:02
Speaker
Kelton thing. I'm just like, you know what, I think I understand the world. I think I can handle this. I love the boxcar kids. You know, I was just like, I'm ready to strike out on my own. And you know, my parents were like, what if we just let you start making your own breakfast?
00:18:20
Speaker
And I was like, okay, that's a there fair trade, good compromise. And my mom still laughs. She's just like, whenever you had a problem, you were like, excuse me. And you would just go to your room and shut the door. And in a couple hours, you would come out and you would have solved it.
00:18:37
Speaker
And you know, my therapist is like, Kelton, that actually was not healthy. we weren Way too independent. This is why you don't know how to ask for help. um But i I grew up wanting that space. I still love having that space.
00:18:53
Speaker
um And I'm appreciative of being like in a setup where i can I can carve some of it out. Worst case scenario, Woods is still taking contact naps when we let him. And so if I really want to think through something, strap him to me, go for a walk. He's out like a light, and I'm just chatting to the trees.
00:19:15
Speaker
Chat into the Trees, a memoir by Kelton Wright. yeah
00:19:21
Speaker
ah So I mean, for the people who don't know us well, I think we should set up what we're writing, um our big projects that we want to work on with each other, which we've alluded to. And yeah, tell me, tell me what makes you a writer? What are you working on? Oh, God.
00:19:39
Speaker
ah this Why do I have to start? Listen, I'll go first. I can go. No, it's fine. I ended 2024 thinking, I'm ready for this year to be over. And then 2025 came and just kicked my ass. So um you know as of this recording, it's the 16th
Challenges in Publishing and Feedback
00:19:59
Speaker
of January. We're 16 days in. And I started the year really lost because last year, at this time, I was getting ready to query agents for um this.
00:20:12
Speaker
new adult speculative fiction book that I had written in a fugue the first draft. It had gone through um four different rewrites, including a full edit with an editor that I paid for. And I felt really good about where the novel was. I felt ready to query it. um So I queried 70, seven zero agents last year, um starting in March. I got three requests for full manuscripts.
00:20:42
Speaker
Only one of them was an agent that I queried. Two of them were agents that I was introduced to through Connections and then nothing. So nothing happened. Completely ghosted. I followed up at the end of summer. I gave them, you know, what is that?
00:21:00
Speaker
four months to to read the the novel, um query follow back up at the end of summer because I guess New York shuts down during the summer and people are kind of coming back to work and in August, still nothing. um For what it's worth to the readers, it took me what, a week to read your manuscript?
00:21:20
Speaker
as Kelton was one of my first readers. I felt like the book was a fast read, personally. It's a fast read. I liked it. I think about it often. Thank you. Not in the context of you like being my friend. Not in the like, I wonder when Christian's going to get published. I think about the heart of the book in the context of my everyday life. I don't want to give away anything about your book. But I do still think about a lot of the things that you wrote about in that book, even though it was a fun, fast read.
00:21:50
Speaker
oh that makes me feel really good because honestly uh like anything having to do with art there's so much rejection involved and you really have to um develop a thick skin with these things and you know i my editor and who's also my teacher he basically said the only thing that counts is rejection like real rejections and real rejections are people who have read your novel and said no and I haven't even gotten very yet, you know, I've had three full manuscript requests. The fact that I haven't heard from them signals to me that they haven't read it. Typically, from what I know in the past, if there was a request for a full manuscript, you would get some sort of note back whether it was even if it was a no with some notes and when not this is not the first book that I've written and queried I, I worked on a book. Wow.
00:22:46
Speaker
over like 13 years ago that I had queried and um I got notes back from agents that were like you know this was really well written and here are the reasons why I'm not the right agent for you but here are the things I liked about the novel here's the things where you could dig in and I'm not even expecting that but even a it's not for me best of luck in your journey type of email would have been appreciated so the fact that I'm not even getting to the stage where someone's reading my novel shows like shows me that there's probably something wrong with my query so you know, my, like I said at the beginning, my goals for this year are to find the joy in writing again, because I i ended 2024 completely demoralized from that entire process, because I had worked so hard on that book.
00:23:31
Speaker
And I really did love it and it was meant to be a duology. I was 50,000 words into the second book, but I lost all steam on that second book because I just felt like if nothing's happening with this first book, writing the second book feels completely
Exploring Novel Themes and Goals
00:23:46
Speaker
pointless. What am I going to do with it?
00:23:48
Speaker
which is insane because when I started this book, I was like, I'm just going to publish this on Wattpad. This is a really fun story that I feel like young people will connect to. And I'm just going to publish it on Wattpad and not care what happens. But then I got caught up in the process of like, I need to find a legitimate agent and make this a real thing. So um I think I'm going to try to rework that query. It's the thing I'm least excited about doing right now. But um a book that I started in 2012 that I was working on, I was a Penn USA Emerging Voices Fellow in 2013.
00:24:23
Speaker
which feels an age ago, but that was the book that i I was writing and workshopping while I was in that fellowship. I've been thinking about it a lot because it is um it's my big book. I think everyone has one big book in them that is the is is why they wanted to write and it carries the themes that um are most important to them, you know which for me is um talking about generational trauma. And I'm really you know fascinated about the women who made me and the women who made them. And so the book that I'm working on right now is a story about um a line of women who come from a family where all the women believe they have this curse that's kind of like passed down to them. And a lot of it also has to do with um alcoholism and sobriety, which is something I quit drinking almost two years ago.
00:25:14
Speaker
Um, that I feel like is really important. It's really important to me. And then the story that I want to tell, and it's kind of been sitting in my subconscious and always living there. And so I sat down with it recently, um, before, you know, the world went up in flames and started rethinking it and, um,
00:25:34
Speaker
rewriting it in first person which has been crazy because i'll write it and then i'll be writing a paragraph in first person and then i'm in third person and i go read it back like what's happening here i don't know if the whole book will be in first person i'm really struggling with it and also tense in first person i feel like is a really yeah yeah maybe you can give me some pointers there but um i'm enjoying it and i'm feeling like With the distance that I've had from it because I haven't worked on it since when I went into my Scrivner dress I think the last one was 2016 so it's been yeah, um I feel like I'm a better writer now I feel like the problems that I had with the novel
00:26:14
Speaker
around timelines and flashbacks and all of these things that I was really struggling with. I feel like I've gotten so much stronger that there are problems that I can tackle and I can see clearly now. So that's what I'm working on and my goal is to hopefully rewrite the whole book.
00:26:33
Speaker
this year. And it's a literary it's literary fiction. It's not speculative. and i I really like genre writing. So that's my goal. And this week, um I really just want to nail this first chapter and get the first chapter down and play with some things and do things differently. That's exciting. Oh, I didn't know that. Have fun. How about you?
00:26:55
Speaker
Well, i I want to acknowledge that I don't know anything about genres. I feel like I need to read a list of like 50 genres because people keep asking me what the button novel I started working on now is going to be. And I'm like, it's fiction.
00:27:11
Speaker
I don't know, be but you read genre fiction. Yeah, but like, you know, I'm not working in the library being like, what genre is this in, you know, and like every time I think I know what a genre is called, it finds out I'm wrong. I really thought magical realism was one thing for years until finding out recently that it's something totally different than what I had been calling books.
00:27:32
Speaker
but wait way we I don't want to tell you. but yeah telling you We're going to get into genre on a different episode. but I'm going to tell you now what I'm working on. All right. So obviously every week I write a newsletter on sub stack called shangrelogs.substack.com. um That is essentially a diary of living in a very small mountain town at 10,000 feet.
00:27:58
Speaker
um and like what it means to be a part of a community and part of nature and I write a free essay every Sunday and then a paid edition every Wednesday and I have a great community there I love writing it I'm going to continue doing that and I ah you know and I do want to talk about like how do you continue to have content every week. Is it worth writing every week if you're just trying to like shove an essay out? ah And then the novel, my big project for this year,
00:28:34
Speaker
My goal was to finish the first draft by my baby's first birthday, which is the end of May. um I wanted to hit somewhere around like 75, 80,000 words. um And I am just shy of 10,000 words right now. And I have the book more or less outlined. um And it is... ah I don't know. there's There's dead people in it. um There's mystery in it. ah There's like animals who are a little more sentient than usual. Like, you know, like light, light fantasy light. We're not going back in time. This isn't medieval. But there is some there's some magic afoot. um I love escapist novels. That is the number one thing that I read. um I don't like to think about problems I could have. I like to think about problems that are impossible. um And that's way more fun for me. Those are the books I always turn to.
00:29:40
Speaker
And I also love romance. So there's a little bit of romance in my book, and I'm trying right now to just like let that be what it is. And then I'll see if I want to take it out or amp it up o later in the future.
00:29:54
Speaker
later in the future. That's where the future is. um I need help getting that book done. And you are the person I turn to when I think about big work that is not just like sent out into the world without any editing. ah It's hard for me to like work on something that I know is going to take forever.
00:30:16
Speaker
um And, you know, the more I read about the publishing industry, I read a lot of newsletters about publishing and everyone's like, it takes years. It takes years to write, years to edit, years to query, years to publish. And they were like, so look at a journey of like minimum five years. And I'm like, but what if it magically just all happened in one year?
00:30:38
Speaker
you know And it's like, my my therapist, praise be Donna, is always like, just let your brain think it'll be one year. Because if you tell yourself five years, you won't do it. like That's something you get to know about yourself. On the list of rules to know about Kelton, I won't commit if I know it's gonna take forever. I will move on to something else even when I don't want to.
00:31:03
Speaker
And so in in the back of my mind, I'm like, well, the book will be done in five months. And then I will deal with what happens next. So that that's my big challenge for this year. I'm super excited about writing a novel. I started writing fiction in 2014 on a retreat in Guatemala with Anne Friedman. And I wrote this ah short story that I still love. um And part of the reason I love it is because whenever other people read it, they're like,
00:31:32
Speaker
That was weird. I'm like, yeah, that's me. That's like, you just read the real me in that story. um And I like, i I love that feeling when you can see someone being like, oh, you're kind of fucked up. And you're like, yeah, I've been trying to tell everybody that this very normal package is really strange.
00:31:56
Speaker
And writing is the best way I've been able to get people to see that. And so i think I think about that short story all the time. I submitted it a bunch. um And nobody, no lit magazines or anything wanted it. Nobody even wrote back. um And I think that really like... that really put a stake in fiction for me for a long time. And I am trying now to just be like, babe, just write the story. And similar to you in Wattpad, I'm like, I could just serialize it on Substack. Like, why not? It'll be a fun story for somebody. But similar to you, I'm also like, but wouldn't it be cool? Wouldn't it be cool to be published like big five?
00:32:43
Speaker
What is it about writing, or at least at this stage of my writing career, our writing careers, where we've been writing for a long time? I'm 40. You're going to be there soon. Yeah. I mean, you just turned up. I'm going to prime you. That it feels like there's a timer on your work. It needs to happen. We're running out of time. Not that we're running out of time, but just like,
00:33:13
Speaker
It needs to happen already. like I want it to happen fast. Do you feel that way too? All the time. Back in ah back in my youth, um I was a singer and I always told myself, i was like if you don't make it by the time you're 24, you should give up.
00:33:34
Speaker
Because I was like, the the music industry wants to be young and hot. And it's like, past that, you need to be more talented than then I was. I knew that part. I was like, I'm not talented enough or hardworking enough to become a working musician. I either am going to just make the right connection when I'm young and hot or it's not going to happen. um And I don't know why that thinking still bleeds over for me into writing.
00:34:02
Speaker
um Part of me thinks I was absolutely right about singing, but with writing, I'm like, anytime I read a debut novel that's really good, and then I find out the writer is like 25, I'm like, this little piece of shit, 100%. You know, I'm like, fuck you. I was like, who are your parents? I know, I'm like, oh, you know. But Nepo, Nepo baby is this. And then you're like, these are just like really good, and you're like, now I want to die. I hate myself. I'm the worst.
00:34:34
Speaker
Um, and I, you know, it's, I think part of it is like, you want it to be your career. yeah So your career starts at what 22.
00:34:45
Speaker
yeah And ah you know it's like it's not like that. Art is not like that. And i the novel I'm working on now, I could not have written yeah any earlier than like two years ago. like It's so based on some of the experience I have had in my very late 30s. It didn't exist in my mind before that. And so I'm grateful that like it's the piece I'm working on now.
00:35:14
Speaker
ah But I do feel an urgency. And I think some of that is just embarrassment related. Like people are like, so you're a writer. What's happening? You're like, oh, oh, God.
00:35:28
Speaker
I think that's one thing about the newsletter that really, really um puts me at ease is that i I have that.
Validation and Career Growth as Writers
00:35:37
Speaker
It's funny because like locally people are like, see, you write a blog, right? And I'm like, wow, drag me out back and shoot me. But look, and it's 2012. Yeah. I'm like, I did write a blog in 2012. You are right.
00:35:51
Speaker
um I do want to feel accomplished in my craft, and I think that in order to feel that way, it's like no matter what kind of writer you are, you want like ah a certain screenplay under your belt you want a byline in certain publications.
00:36:09
Speaker
you want a novel that a person could find at Barnes and Noble. You know, it's like there are these benchmarks that make you feel real. um I mean, the sad part is that ah inevitably, once you have them, there are just more benchmarks. Yeah. And you continue to doubt yourself. So silly little humans. ah But it doesn't change us wanting it. No. And I think you you start with Can I call myself a writer? Do I want to tell people that I write? What do you do for a living is the question everyone asks you when you first meet them, right? um And then once you put that out in the world, everyone sets expectations like, oh, have you published anything? Where can I read your work?
00:36:53
Speaker
and is this feeling like there is a need for validation, right? um And we do want it to be our career. It's like, I would love to not have to work and just to be able to write. And so there is just like, I don't know, like a little bit of desperation and like, can I get out of the the nine to five grind and just focus on the thing that you know, fuels me and is really important to me. And so that imposes a timer on it in and of itself, right? um Yeah, but getting back to it, it's it's ah the joy of writing. It's the thing, it's the reason why we do it is because we love it. And when I feel like when I lose sight of it and I get so fixated on these, ah you know, outside validating things that I lose focus of the actual work.
00:37:44
Speaker
And when I was talking to my teacher about it, he basically said, you have to be so good that they can't ignore you. And maybe it's just going to take me, you're going to hate this, maybe it's just going to take me another 10 years to get there, you know? um But they say you need 10,000 hours of doing something to be an expert in it. Right. um Yeah. you I like I like I said about my book, I feel like I'm such a stronger writer now that I've been working on other things now that I'm coming back to it.
00:38:20
Speaker
And I'm hopeful that now I can like sit down and make something of it. And I have to be okay with the fact that I will be at the end of the final draft. You can always keep for revising, right? But I'll be at the end of the final draft. And I'll just feel very proud of the book that I've written. And I can move on to the next thing and just keep pushing. yeah Because there's part part of it is the life that you've lived and how, you know, being 40 now informs the work that I'm writing. I've read written book i've read books by people in their 20s and I'm gobsmacked by the quality of the writing and ah the story that they're telling, but there's just life experience that is absent of those books that, not that they're not.
00:39:05
Speaker
good and in themselves but in 10 years that writer is going to have a even richer story to tell I feel because they'll have more life to have lived but um it's also the quality of your craft right the way that I explained it to a friend who wanted to start writing and was thinking about it I said you should go take some classes because it's like photography right um before the age of it's still even digital cameras we all have our own eye for what makes incredible photo Yeah. But until we know how the camera works, how to create the settings, what the aperture should be, how to set the white balance and all of those things, we can't capture it the way that we want to. So until we can learn those things, you know, we're just like lacking the tools in our toolbox to really become the best storytellers we possibly could be. So I feel like you and I. This year. This is the year. This fucking year.
00:40:03
Speaker
It'll be the year of taking everything that we've, all of those tools that we've gathered, you know, the stories that we want to tell, the the words that we've written that before to tell these stories the way that we want to, you know, um as long as we can just focus on the joy of writing and not the validation that may or may not come.
00:40:25
Speaker
Yeah. That's part of my brain. It's like, don't worry, honey, that validation is there. You keep going. The only validation that matters is you.
00:40:39
Speaker
Oh, God, I wish that was true. Okay, so part of what we're going to do on this podcast is actually push each other on our goals, which means we have to have goals beyond the big overarching, like,
00:40:51
Speaker
but Become a writer. Query again. Fix my novel. um We need small goals. um And I think keeping track of those with each other is going to be helpful. For me, it's helpful in that I will feel deep shame should I not accomplish them because I know I will have to look you in the face and be like, I was just like reading essays on Substack for a while.
00:41:18
Speaker
um And knowing that there's essentially like a homework that I have to do is, for me, the number one motivator. So what kind of what kind of a parent do you want me to be? Because i'm I'm a Libra, so I'm very like, I can see why. And I can tell you why that might have helped you and be very gentle parent to you with it. But I mean, what do you need from me? I need a disappointed dad. Ooh.
00:41:46
Speaker
Yeah, okay I need someone to be like, I thought you were better than that. No, I'm not I guess you know a good example would be I did not hit my goals for this past week, um not only because I was really distracted by the crises in LA, but also because um I got a piece commissioned.
00:42:18
Speaker
um And so um I will share next time what that is because I do want to make sure it gets published and not like just be me getting a kill fee for it. But I had a piece commissioned and so I was like, I have to write this piece. I have three days to write it. um I can't.
00:42:34
Speaker
I cannot work on my novel right now. I only have so many words in me. And that one took took those words. um And i I excused it by being like, well, I thought about my novel. you know i thought I thought about it a little bit. I was like sitting with the characters in my mind.
00:42:50
Speaker
That's writing. That's writing. But that wasn't my goal. If my goal for this week was I want to like spend time in my protagonist's head and like live like her for a week and like see what excites her and what bothers her, for me that's real work on my novel. But when I'm like, oh, I was just thinking about it, that's me ah evading, avoiding work.
00:43:14
Speaker
So if I'm not putting pen to paper, I need you to be like, what, you didn't plan out this week well enough. You didn't ask Ben for enough time. You didn't prioritize that writing. You, uh, or especially if I write a really good essay in the newsletter, you can be like, looks where, uh, you spent your time this week. You know, cause it's like every week be like, this essay is perfect.
00:43:39
Speaker
Every week I do have to work on the novel, so I do kind of want you to be like, what what are you doing? What are you doing? I'm so antithetical about to how I think about writing. Also, I feel like you hold yourself to a word count goal. Yeah, I do. I don't do that at all.
00:44:02
Speaker
I find it works for me. And I do. Look, we have been corporate girlies in the past. So I often think of my word count like KPI. Oh, gross. I know. I well or i hate everything about who we are, OK? But I think of it as like if my goal every week is 3,500 words, if I get 2,800, I am still proud of myself.
00:44:31
Speaker
I'm like, okay, 3500 is a reach goal. You know, it's like, if you don't get that every week, that's fine. Yeah. And the weeks you do get that are more than that. Amazing. You get a raise, like take yourself out for some cheesecake. Um, but how often do you hit your goal? Hmm. I mean, I started implementing 3,500 words like four weeks ago and I've hit it twice.
00:44:56
Speaker
Okay, so, ah so far all the time. Okay. um But I am, ah I also hold incredible momentum in the beginning of my projects. And I know that about myself. That is another thing Kellen gets to list on the things she knows about herself. um And so I, we are getting into the danger zone now. um But I'm also about to make my goal a little more more realistic, um which I'll get into now. My goal,
00:45:26
Speaker
by the next time we speak is to write 2,500 words. I know what scene they're in. I'm like ready to knock them out. Okay. I want to poke at your goal a little bit. hi I want, I just want to put some things out for you to consider. Okay. i'm concerned I think that when you are setting a word limit goal, and maybe you're not like this and maybe I'm projecting, but how much of that is you just trying to fill the bucket? Is it quantity over quality?
00:46:09
Speaker
i I will say right now it is quantity over quality because one of my big hang ups in fiction is that I am a obsessed with getting it right the first time. And so I'm held back, especially because I write with a lot of magic in my fiction. I'm held back by like, well, what where do these people get food?
00:46:30
Speaker
Like, did did are there no airplanes in this world? Would they never see an airplane flying? And and I get so tied up in the weeds that then I don't write anything. And I spend all this time like thinking about the world, which is fine. But for me, that has meant I have never finished a fiction project other than that first short story. And so I am trying to work on quantity over quality right now. I want to just get the,
00:46:59
Speaker
the shittiest version of this book out to be like, it's a book and now you can fix it. Um, because that, that is, that has been my problem. I'm, I'm just like crawling around in the weeds being like, there's ants here. And it's like, girl, your story is happening up above. like What are you doing? Yeah, I get that. I think, you know, the, the book that I'm working on now,
00:47:27
Speaker
Well, I've written three books, three full-length books, and have gone through full edits of all of them. They say that writing a book is a marathon. I don't think so. I think writing a book is an ultramarathon. It is a hundred grueling miles where you feel like you're going to die. And getting it right on the first try is impossible. I wonder if I wonder if it's something to consider once we've like met a couple times and you see how well you're doing on your goal. If there's a way to test a new goal one week for you, and maybe make more about how much time you're spending with your book rather than how many words you're putting out. Yeah, I'm open to that. um We'll see. We'll see. We'll see if I get the words done. Because I mean, to me it's like,
00:48:21
Speaker
how much time I spend on it, how many words I write, they're both, those are both fine goals to me because they're quantifiable. And I know that I have done work. but I mean, the hours is a little trickier because I can be pretty evasive with doing work. um I'm pretty squirrely with myself. ah and And I'm very good at lying to myself in and to other people. um And I try.
00:48:48
Speaker
What, what do you have a routine? Do you have a time of day that you work? No, no, not with the baby. I mean, every day is brand new with him. Um, and that has really, that has forced my hands to be like you 30 minutes, like sit down and do it right now.
00:49:05
Speaker
um And, you know, I mean, it is, but it's also, it is the most motivated I have ever felt. Having these constraints is incredibly helpful to me. um And I'm exhausted, and I think I will continue to wear myself down to the bone, but it is the most excited and motivated I have felt. I think I do really, really well with big obstacles and big boundaries.
00:49:30
Speaker
um and so i'm just trying to take advantage of that as much as i can before i'm like crawling across the floor being like who is there i have nothing i have nothing left oh my goodness i feel like it's so interesting because you and i are so different from how we work okay i'm like i'm like a baby i'm like i need i need I need my headphones charged. I need um my emotional support beverages. So like I have my metal tea and my Shisandra Barry tea and a cup of coffee and my perfect like classical playlist or lo-fi beats or
00:50:13
Speaker
Ethiopian jazz or whatever music that's setting the tone for me. um If the sun is coming through the window at my writing desk, that's like perfect. you know like i yeah I need this uninterrupted, beautiful moment at my desk in order to be able to focus in on writing. And that is a blessing and a curse because when it happens, it is um it is incredible and I will sit there and pound out thousands of words yeah in an hour or two um but when I don't have that it is really hard for me to get in the zone um and I feel so distracted in a way that
00:51:00
Speaker
you know i I really feel like I haven't been in a really long time and maybe it's the fact that I'm getting older, maybe it's the fact that I drank so much in my youth, but like my brain is so hard. I'm having so much trouble focusing, so I've been taking lion's mane and all of these adaptogens and trying to get my brain to work. um If I had to,
00:51:27
Speaker
steal time in the day 30 minutes like you do I mean maybe it would be a good thing for me because I would feel like okay this is it for me like I've got to like pound something out right now but um I'm such a baby know like I need my little my space and my time to be creative um Revision is not that way. So I think like in the first draft phase when your brain needs like space to breathe and explore and find things and I really, I'm also not an outliner like you are. I find the story while I'm writing it and I play with dialogue while I'm writing it and I'm hearing the voices in my head as I'm putting the words on the page.
00:52:10
Speaker
um But with when I'm revising, I can do that anywhere. I can do it in a cafe while my kids are piano lessons or whatever. I can sit down and like look at the at the words and the pages and and you know problem-solve in that way.
00:52:23
Speaker
but um In terms of my my goal for the week, i I kind of think in scenes. If I can get to an end of a scene, I feel really good about my writing. And this first chapter that I'm working on, i' i've been I've been doing it in in scene work. And so what I'd really like to do is take the end of this first chapter and then revise it by next week. That's my goal. So by next week, when we talk, hopefully,
00:52:53
Speaker
I'll have something that I'll be proud of, that and I can talk about what that process was like, and hopefully the world won't be on fire by then, so I'll have some time to work. I mean, I think that's kind of the problem, even if the world is on fire. um We have inauguration on Monday, so. Girl, I listen. I'm not watching.
00:53:15
Speaker
tuned out, I'm doing what I can locally, blah, blah, blah, you know. And we're almost tech talk, so like, worm I won't even know what's going on anyway. Yeah, I mean, I i did give up Instagram mostly ah for this year. I was back on during the fires because it was the best way to get information, but I did find that, you know, we will have a whole episode dedicated to distractions and how we manage them.
00:53:40
Speaker
um I also am really looking forward to talking to you about being a pantser versus an outliner. ah This is the first time I ever outlined anything. um I considered myself a pantser my whole life and that never worked. So I was like, what if you're wrong about who you are?
00:53:56
Speaker
Um, and so I can't wait to talk about that. Um, and I can't wait to work on these projects together. I think this is going to be really fun.
Podcast Goals and Listener Engagement
00:54:03
Speaker
Um, obviously the reason we're doing this is to hold each other accountable. And I hope that, um, you know, as people listen to this, they feel like they're part of that community with us and they can share what they're working on and and how their goals are progressing. and and tell us what kind of bullshit they want us to talk about um to help clear their heads or distract them when they need it. OK, I loved this. I love you. I'm so glad we're doing this. I mean, I will say this.
00:54:30
Speaker
The fact that you, every week, put out a newsletter that goes out to thousands of people? Yeah. 7,500 people. Bing, bing, bing. 7,500 people is incredible. And it is the highlight of my Sunday. Aw. I get my coffee and like sit in bed. I'm like, oh let's see what that person has to say in shangra logs. um And the reason why I'm so excited about chatting with you about books is that I feel like there's so much in your writing that I admire that I wish I had in my own. There is a vulnerability that you bring to the written word, a humor. Your writing is so funny and beautiful and thoughtful and um filled with a lot of soul.
00:55:17
Speaker
I really struggle with being vulnerable on the page. I, like I said, keep a lot of distance between me and the reader. I can't write a personal essay. i ah It is my worst nightmare. So I think that what I would really hope to come out of this is that I can learn from you on how to abuse my writing with some of the things that you do so well.
00:55:41
Speaker
And I would be so happy if any of the ah discipline that I have with novel writing could be helpful for you because I would love to read a Kelton Wright novel. i had I've always had an inkling that there was some weirdness going on inside of you, but I love that. I read that. I love Gothic novels. I love magical realism, and you live in such an interesting world, your your livelihood, your outdoor nature, being able to be outside and appreciate the owls and the animals and everything. So I feel like the world needs a Kelted Wright novel. So if I can be any help in having that come to light, it will be a
00:56:29
Speaker
you know, my my honor. So I think that this is going to be a very fruitful exchange. You're already more vulnerable than you think. It takes me an entire week to say something that vulnerable.
00:56:43
Speaker
But you do it in such a beautiful way. I'm just you know, vomiting it out, but yeah. I thought that was delightful. I can't wait for us to rub off on each other. And I hope that people listen to this and are, uh, impressioned and delighted and impress us back.
00:57:00
Speaker
Yeah. um Thank you for joining us. I'm Pem Pals, where we navigate the highs, lows, and plot holes of being a writer. Like all artists, we love our work to not just disappear into the ether. So please subscribe, leave a review. You know how podcasts work. Share this episode with anyone you know who's ever written something beyond an email. If you've got a story or a struggle you want us to tackle, drop us a line.
00:57:26
Speaker
at an email address. We need an