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Literary Pathways: AWP Bonus Episode
140 Plays1 month ago
In this special bonus episode, Krisserin takes you on a journey through the 2025 AWP Conference in Los Angeles, where she sought out the voices on the edges of the literary world rather than the mainstream publishing houses. From self-published epic fantasy writer Omari Richards to the undergraduate editors of Rock and Sling, from Chelsea Hodson's innovative Rose Books to Chiwan Choi's bold assertion that "in 2025, we no longer need permission to publish our work," these conversations reveal the many paths to getting your words into the world. Join Krisserin as she discovers that beyond the intimidating crowd of 12,000 writers lies a vibrant ecosystem of indie presses, writing communities, and alternative MFA programs that are redefining what it means to be published in today's literary landscape.
Featured Interviews:
Omari Richards, Author of "The Kimoni Legacy Book One: Initiation"
Website: omari-richards.com
Instagram: @omari_a_richards
Rock and Sling Literary Journal (Whitworth University)
Website: rockandsling.com
Instagram: @rock.and.sling
Zachary Jensen
Website: angelcityreview.com
Instagram: @angelcityreview
Harrison Gale, Creative and Business Director of The Book Incubator
Website: thebookincubator.com
Instagram: @book.incubator
Avitus B. Carle, Author of "These Worn Bodies"
Website: avitusbcarle.com
Instagram: @avitusbcarle
Victoria Bustamonte
MFA Program Coordinator for the Creative Writing Department at the Institute of American Indian Arts (IAIA)
Website: iaia.edu
Chiwan Choi, Author of "Sky Songs"
Writ Large Projects (formerly Writ Large Press)
Website: writlargeprojects.org
Instagram: @chiwan
Flo, Programming for Wendy's Subway
Website: wendyssubway.com
Instagram: @wendyssubway
Chelsea Hodson, Publisher of Rose Books. Author and creator of Morning Writing Club
Rose Books: rosebooks.co
Morning Writing Club: morningwritingclub.com
Instagram: @chelseahodson_
Amy Brill, Author of "The Movement of Stars"
Website: amybrill.com
Instagram: @amybrillbk
Thank you for listening to this special bonus episode! If you enjoyed these conversations about alternative paths to publishing, please subscribe to our podcast and share with other writers in your community.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Pen Pals' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Chris-Aaron Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels. From first drafts to query letters. Through inevitable rejection. And hopefully, eventual success. From California to Colorado, this is Pen Pals.
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello, Pen Pals. This is Chris-Aaron. Welcome to a special bonus episode of our podcast. This week, I had the
Exploring Non-Traditional Literary Innovators
00:00:23
Speaker
pleasure of speaking with writers, publishers and literary champions at this year's Association of Writers and Writing Programs Conference in Los Angeles, California, my hometown.
00:00:34
Speaker
And if you've ever been to a convention, you are probably familiar with the fact that the center and front, the booths that are there are the most expensive and typically are housed by the biggest names in the industry. And so what I chose to do was spend my time on the outside and in the back of the convention center and speak to people who are doing interesting things and really pushing the literary community forward in non-traditional ways.
00:01:02
Speaker
I'll be linking to all of these incredible people and their projects in the show notes. I highly encourage you check them out. They are truly inspiring and can use your support.
00:01:14
Speaker
What I walked away from these conversations with was the feeling that there truly are so many different paths to publishing. whether it is self-publishing or indie presses.
00:01:26
Speaker
It seems to me that people who truly want their books out in the world can find a way that is satisfying not only to their pocketbooks, but also to their creative spirit. With that, I'm going to let the voices speak for themselves. Join me as explore this vibrant and diverse world of contemporary literature through these conversations with the people who are shaping it.
00:01:47
Speaker
My
Omari Richards' Self-Publishing Journey
00:01:48
Speaker
first conversation is with Omari Richards. He's the author of The Kimoni Legacy Initiation. He's self-published and he shares that journey along with his experience at AWP.
00:02:00
Speaker
So do you want to introduce yourself and the title of your book? Okay, perfect. Hi folks, my name is Omari Richards. I'm the author of The Kimoni Legacy Initiation. Where are you from, Omari?
00:02:12
Speaker
I am from Baltimore, Maryland, the DMV area And this is your first time at AWP? Oh, yes. It's also my first time in l LA in general. So I'm very excited to experience both.
00:02:23
Speaker
So you're here at AWP with the book that you published. yeah And you self-published your book. I did. You want to tell me a little bit about why you made the choice to self-publish and how you've been finding it so far? Well, for one thing, the book is about 748 pages. Okay.
00:02:39
Speaker
So any rational or sane publisher would look at that and say, you have to cut this out to at least 300 or 500 pages. and then I seriously considered that, but then the more I tried to cut out,
00:02:51
Speaker
the less the story made sense. I even made, i even, there are three point of view characters. i even cut out the two point of view characters. I made it one character story and just divide the story into three parts.
00:03:04
Speaker
And then that would have gotten me the traditional publication, but the story was just so much was lost when it was just one character. So I figured for it, for the whole scope to be shared,
00:03:18
Speaker
It needed to be as long as it is. And because of that, I figured self-publishing would allow me to tell the story the way I feel like it should best be told. Very cool. And did you work with an editor or did you just do this all on your own? Oh yes, I
Editorial Guidance and Story Expansion
00:03:31
Speaker
worked with about like three or four editors.
00:03:36
Speaker
And surprisingly, when I gave the editors the cut down version, they told me, oh you need to expand on this. You need to expand on this character. you need to expand on this idea. You need to expand on this aspect of the world.
00:03:48
Speaker
And I said, wait, you want me to add more? Isn't the job of the editor to tell me to cut it down? And then they said, the job of an editor is to help the story reach its full potential.
00:04:01
Speaker
And sometimes that means cutting it down. And in this case, it means adding more to it so that all these ideas you have have room to breathe, develop, and really be expressed the way you want them to.
00:04:13
Speaker
That gave me the green light to just go 10 toes in and just really go all in on every idea I want to experience. And so far, it's been great.
00:04:24
Speaker
That's awesome. How did you find your editors? went on Readsy. It's like a website for freelancers of all. stages of the publishing process. So you'll find editors there, you'll find developmental editors, several proofreading editors, you'll find cover artists, you'll even find ghostwriters there. So I hired about three and they all essentially told me the same thing. Expand on this idea, expand on this character, even add a character.
00:04:53
Speaker
So when you hear three editors tell you the same thing, it's probably a good idea to listen to them. That's great. That's awesome. Yeah. And for the listeners, you guys can't see the cover art for the novel, but it is really well done. It's really dynamic. It's beautiful. And we'll definitely link to it in the show notes.
00:05:11
Speaker
So in terms of self-publishing, is there anything that you wish you would have known going into it that you know now that you would like to share with people? um
Building Hype and Promotion for Books
00:05:20
Speaker
Build hype before you are finished with the book. Okay. because for Because for me, I thought it was counterintuitive because how am I supposed to build hype for something that isn't here yet? I thought the book comes out and then you just build hype and tell people to go out and buy it.
00:05:37
Speaker
What I'm finding is, especially in the digital age, people have very short-term memories. It's really important to not only light the spark but keep the spark going as early as possible so that the idea of your book sticks in the head of all your potential readers so each time you make a major milestone in the publication process i finished draft two i finished draft four i found my editor i found my alpha readers i'm looking for beta readers i have my cover art all that just sends up a signal and more and more people get more hyped about it because, you know, it's the anticipation. And I think the anticipation is the key part of marketing. You can't build anticipation if the thing is already out. yeah
00:06:21
Speaker
So I'm finding, especially now that I'm working on the second book in the series and another novel, I'm really working to build as much hype as possible, even though I'm not even finished with the first draft either one. And are you doing most of that promotion on social media?
00:06:34
Speaker
ah Yeah, social media has been a both a great equalizer, but also a big crutch because as great as these algorithms are, they're very finicky. Right.
00:06:46
Speaker
You could put out your best video work, your best voice work, your best like promotional material and still get under 200 views. And so you feel very frustrated. But the thing to remember is that's 200 people who stopped and said, Hey, I like what you're doing here.
00:07:05
Speaker
Like imagine if you're at a table here at AWP and 200 people come to your table. Right. That's going to be amazing. Right. But in the but in the social media digital age, that seems very small because you're seeing people get like 20,000 views for like six second videos. Right.
00:07:19
Speaker
So it's so it's so when you're marketing, you just have to keep things in perspective and you have to um really um define what success looks for you.
00:07:31
Speaker
because I've gone quote unquote viral a few times, but for those posts that I got like 9,000 or even 10,000 views, only maybe less than 5% of those people cross over into my book stuff and declared interest that they were buying books. So it's really important to not only build hype, but build your community as you are marketing.
00:07:56
Speaker
I love that advice.
Omari Richards' Literary Influences
00:07:57
Speaker
And you said, I love this, that Tony Legacy is like Roots meets Game of Thrones, which I think, a fantastic way to describe it. Who are the writers that are the authors that made you want to be a writer?
00:08:09
Speaker
ah boy. How much time you have? Give me three. Or the last book that you absolutely fell in love with. Okay, classic or contemporary? Let's just do... Maybe living authors. Living authors, okay. N.K. Jemisin was really a good one. I just love her world building. I love the scope of her worlds and her characters.
00:08:32
Speaker
The Broken Earth trilogy, just A plus all across the board. um Another one, obviously George R. R. Martin, um because when I went to um forums that said, oh, I want to write a fantasy, where what are some of the books I need to read? Everyone said A Song of Ice and Fire. And then and then at the time I thought, well, because when you read the summary, it doesn't really sound like much.
00:08:55
Speaker
And I'm like, i'm not sure how much I'm really going to enjoy this. And then I started reading, and I was like, oh now i get it um and then three i guess nick would be either um milton j davis he is a small time publisher in atlanta he writes books such as amber and the hidden city he does a lot of Afro fantasy himself.
00:09:21
Speaker
So he was a good proof of concept for me because at the time i was trying to write, I didn't really have a lot of comp titles to really get an idea of what an Afro fantasy would look like. But his books really helped me see that it's not only possible, but this is how you would go about writing it.
00:09:37
Speaker
Very cool. Tell the people about your book and where they can find it. Okay. The Kimoni Legacy is epic Afro fantasy inspired by cultures of West Africa, their mythology, their folklore, and their history. It tells the story of Kamau, Rizzi, and Maslow.
00:09:55
Speaker
They are members of the powerful Kimoni clan, and they discover that there is a conspiracy building against their clan. and they each branch out to stop it. And along the way, there aren't a lot of magic, monsters, demons, traitors, and worse.
00:10:08
Speaker
annual And it's available on Amazon and my author website, omari-richards.com. Amazing. Well, congratulations again on your book. 740 pages is something that I definitely love. i read a lot of fantasy and epic fantasy, so I feel like your readers are out there.
00:10:23
Speaker
hope you have a
Passion for Writing at Whitworth University
00:10:24
Speaker
very successful AWP, and thank you so much for talking to me. Thank you so much for having me Absolutely. Next up, the undergraduate editors of Rock and Sling Literary Press, Kenzie, Olivia, and Samwell, share with us their hopes for their literary careers.
00:10:39
Speaker
All right, so I'm here with with Rock and Sling Literary Press, is that correct? And you guys are out of which college? Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington. And do you guys want to just briefly introduce yourselves?
00:10:52
Speaker
Yeah, I'm Kenzie. I'm a second year student. I'm actually not an English major, but I really enjoy the world and that's why I'm doing all of the editing extracurricular things that I can.
00:11:08
Speaker
I'm Olivia. I am a second year student at Whitworth as well. I am an English major and I'm also minoring in editing and publishing. I'm Samwell, I'm a third year English major at Whitworth and I'm studying also film and political science.
00:11:25
Speaker
That's incredible. So you guys were all in undergrad, but you are all writers. Is that correct? So I was an English major and political science minor. And i don't think I really came into wanting to write or knowing that I really wanted to be a writer until after college.
00:11:40
Speaker
So I'm really interested to hear about how you guys identify, call yourselves writers, and when you knew that this is what you wanted to do. Because I
Influences and Aspirations of Student Editors
00:11:49
Speaker
think it's incredible that you're doing it now in undergrad.
00:11:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think the moment I realized I want to be a writer is whenever my mom would take me to the museum or like the art gallery at Whitworth because she was an alum. I would be like, I wonder what these people do when I'm not around. So i used to write these stories about the statues and sculptures talking and stuff and also did puppet shows. And then when I hit the end middle school, I realized I want to do screenwriting and make documentaries.
00:12:16
Speaker
but the only way to get there to do short stories and poetry and stuff like that. So when I came to Woodworth and found out that there was a letter journal that could be a assistant editor for, was like, I gotta do this. Yeah, so I kind of grew up around literature.
00:12:29
Speaker
Both of my parents love reading and it's something that's always been a huge part of my life. I was homeschooled and we used literature based curriculum. And I also grew up moving a lot. So literary worlds are really what brought me home and a lot of uncertainty. And I, as I grew up, I started becoming really interested in how to create those worlds on my own.
00:12:50
Speaker
and attempting to bring comfort to other people in the way that I had experienced that through literature. And so i kind of always was writing little bits and pieces here and there, like the elementary school like novel that you write three chapters of and then leave it alone because you'd forget about it.
00:13:07
Speaker
but Elementary school novel. Yeah. Stop. Stop. I was like in third grade and I had this whole plot drawn out and then I just forgot about it. You're incredible. I think when COVID hit is when I started reading poetry just on my own and I became really interested in like how I could figure out to do that on my own. I'd never really studied poetry in like any sort of specific forms, but like free verse was something that I found to be really cathartic.
00:13:34
Speaker
So I started writing in like 2020, 2021. And then at that point, I knew that I wanted to be an English major and study this as deeply as I could. And I had never really thought about publishing before when I got to Whitworth.
00:13:50
Speaker
um But I someone I don't remember who it was is like, you should come to a rock and sling meeting. And I was like, have no idea what that is. but I'll be there and I went and it was incredible to be able just to see how many different like the variety of writing that we received and were able to discuss in such depth and just the beauty of it all and it was shortly after that I added the editing and publishing minor And yeah, I think through that I've just been incredibly inspired by the writing that I've seen and the raw, ah like authentic emotion of the things that we receive. I've just been able to see how beautiful that is and implement that into my own writing, whether it be creative nonfiction or poetry.
00:14:32
Speaker
but Amazing. My mom's a math teacher, dad's a firefighter. I'm actually in a pre-physical therapy program myself. And it wasn't really until my junior year of high school in an English class that I really started to care about what I was reading and how I can take the themes from that and apply it to today. and I got really, really invested into developing my own writing and essay writing.
00:14:56
Speaker
So my high school teacher at the time, what was your teacher's name? His name's Michael Taylor. He's great. I'm still in contact with him. I send them updates about all the literature and English things I'm doing, but it was through the end of high school that I was like, maybe I'll have the credit room to do a literature minor in college. So I've gotten myself into a groove of creative nonfiction and essay writing. And I'm going to a panel later today for that, which I'm really excited for. Very cool. And briefly, can you just describe or tell us a little bit about Rock and Sling and what you guys publish?
00:15:26
Speaker
Yeah, so Rockin' Sling is first and foremost a Journal of Witness. And what that means to us is we think that everyone from every background has a really unique experience and we want to be able to showcase voices that might not otherwise get heard.
00:15:42
Speaker
So we take a variety of different art forms because people create so differently. So we take poetry, creative nonfiction, fiction and art, and we are really into and really value things that are raw and vulnerable.
00:15:57
Speaker
And whatever that means to you, that can be a silly little poem or that can be a really heartfelt and raw creative nonfiction story. We just want to showcase the human experience the best way we can.
00:16:08
Speaker
Very cool. I have two more questions. The first question, what do you hope your writing career looks like after college? What
Future Writing Goals and Influences
00:16:15
Speaker
are you going to do after you graduate with your writing? I want to do screenwriting very badly. i like using a visual medium of stuff like that.
00:16:23
Speaker
ah want to dip my toes into every single genre. I enjoy poetry. i really love creative nonfiction. I love short stories. i love comics. I love stuff like that. So I just hope that I'm able to just explore all of the different ways that writing can appear, but also cultivate and curate examples and collections of other people's writings and my writing. I love that. And then before you pass on the mic,
00:16:48
Speaker
What's a book you think about all the time? A book I think about all of the time is Station Eleven by Emily St. John Mandel. um i just think it's very beautiful to talk about the post-apocalypse in a way where we're not talking about losing your humanity, but losing the art.
00:17:06
Speaker
I think it's just beautiful to imagine a place that even if the systems fall apart in the ways that I see them happening, the art is a way that can liberate and help us transcend our current moment.
00:17:18
Speaker
So I think about Station Eleven all the time so much. I'm going to see her later today. and It's going to be a full circle moment. and Are you going to be okay? I'm going to be okay. I think I'll be okay.
00:17:30
Speaker
but yeah All right, Olivia, same question to you So what do you hope your writing career looks like after college? And what book can you not stop thinking about? Like Samwell said, the writing industry is very intimidating and hard to break into. And so...
00:17:43
Speaker
and so I don't know how I truly plan on trying to break into that, but honestly, I just want to stay true to myself and the things that I write. I don't want to feel pressured into following any trends or creating something for other people so much as it is creating something that I need for myself while also potentially inspiring others. And if even if it doesn't reach ah crazy audience, just being able to maybe touch the heart of one person through the things that I'm able to create,
00:18:14
Speaker
And a book that i this is a little silly, um Little Women by Louisa May Alcott. i read that for the first time when I was 13. And I'm the oldest of four kids and I have two younger sisters.
00:18:28
Speaker
And so when I read that story, I just feel so touched by each and every personality of each sister. I think it's so wonderful to be able to see who they are and relate to them each in some different way.
00:18:41
Speaker
And I have, I think, 10 copies of Little Women and I just collect them because I just love it so much. That's the book that made me want to be a writer. Oh, is so near and dear to my heart. And then just seeing how much Louise Mallcott wrote herself into the character too is is incredibly inspiring. So decades later, she's yeah, love it. It's great.
00:19:00
Speaker
but Thank you. I think as far as where I'd want my writing to go, The biggest thing for me, being in a space of the humanities and STEM is helping to bridge the gap between them more because it feels so polarized and I don't think it really needs to be.
00:19:17
Speaker
It's a lofty goal, but I've always wanted to get a collection of essays published because that's really what I love to do and what I think I'm good at. So maybe some intentional work towards that at some point. Then a book that I think about all the time, Olivia's heard me talk about this forever but since high school i've really loved the great gatsby by f scott fitzgerald short book and i've talked to so many people that don't see a lot of depth in it and i'm like nobody there's there's so much going on and i think that there's a lot of interesting applicability when you think about today's
00:19:52
Speaker
political and social structure to think about, wow, the story written in the 20s about the 20s and its grandiosity and themes of desire and gender and sexuality and interpersonal relationships when we know historically what came immediately after the Roaring twenty And every time I read it, I pick out something new or learn something new or can relate it in a new way to what we're experiencing right now.
00:20:20
Speaker
Amazing. Well, this is such an inspiring conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time. And as an older writer, I think my one piece of advice to all of you is just keep writing and don't be discouraged.
00:20:31
Speaker
because you do have really important stories to tell. I think everyone has their own unique story. No one can tell it the way that you do. So congratulations on knowing what you want to do so young. And I wish you the best in all of your writing careers.
00:20:41
Speaker
Thank you so much. Thank you. And now for a conversation with writer and managing and founding editor of Angel City Review, Zachary Jensen. Please tell me
Community Focus in Literary Review
00:20:52
Speaker
your name. our name's Zachary Jensen. Where you work, and why you publish. I'm the managing and founding editor of Angel City Review. You're based in Los Angeles? Yes. Are you from LA? Yep, born and raised. Where were you born? Well, was born in the very edge of l LA in Pomona. Okay, I was born in West Covina. Okay. I live in Sun Valley, but nobody knows where that is. know where that is. Okay, so you know. Because I say Sun Valley a lot of times people think sun winds. No. And I tell them it's landfills and junkyards, are not rednecks.
00:21:19
Speaker
Okay. That's great description. What do you write? Primarily, i do prose, but begrudgingly, the majority of my publications are poetry. Okay. so What draws you to poetry?
00:21:32
Speaker
I don't write a terribly large amount of poetry, it just when I feel like it, I write it, I don't know, I think it's just it's easier to evoke a certain feeling or emotion when you're writing poetry. But like with nonfiction, I think I get to cover and explore larger things.
00:21:46
Speaker
My main book project is I'm writing a kind of experimental memoir of the time when I took care of my grandma when she dementia. Yeah. Yeah. And what other topics do you like to cover?
00:21:57
Speaker
I'm sorry about your grandma. I love out of here. Yeah, let's move on. Yeah, let's just move on to the next topic. um I mean, being a caretaker is a real thing. So I can understand how that would make a very compelling memoir and something that a lot of people can relate to.
00:22:09
Speaker
and then fiction, i kind of just... like think of like fantastical ideas in my head rather than for poetry it'll usually be more of those very snapshot moments of life like those feelings that you feel like and then it's gone to explore those it could be something as simple as a heartbreak or just something that you were thinking about pensively what compels you to start the Agile City Review And I just wanted to contribute to something, be literary citizen, I guess as it were.
00:22:37
Speaker
And I was part of an open mic at a bar for many years in Echo Park. And that was fun. was like, well, let me just do something too. And so I started it one day as I was wrapping up grad school and then...
00:22:51
Speaker
It's been doing it ever since. Very cool. What do you publish in the Angel City Review? So we, so one thing we're special, we're not themed, so some people end up thinking, it has to be writing about LA. We publish it from all over.
00:23:02
Speaker
we do poetry, fiction, nonfiction. We especially emphasize that we're interested in the diverse voices. A lot of journals are very white. Yeah. Like, so yeah, and it's actually, i find like they're either very white or they're intentionally 100% not white. Sure. And I'd prefer that over very white. And so we do a good mix of things. One thing I'm proud of is we have the very last poem that Dan Fonte ever wrote.
00:23:29
Speaker
as John Fonte's son, he submitted to us and then he passed six months later. it was pretty recent he passed away. Yeah. If people want to submit to you, what should do? Yeah, we're going to opening at the end of April, so the end of April until like the end of summer.
00:23:44
Speaker
and We'd love more prose. We get a lot of poetry, but we don't get that many stories. And when we do, it's hard to craft a good story. So if we're only getting 10 stories, we're not going to necessarily have ones that work for us.
00:23:58
Speaker
But we'd love more. Last question. What is a book that you can't stop thinking about? Let's see I return to Roberto Bolaño's work a lot. You have a favorite? Savage Detectives.
00:24:11
Speaker
It's very long of his books. one of the longer ones. But i love the notion in Latin American literature that closure isn't something that everybody gets.
00:24:22
Speaker
I think that is a very Western European notion that I need closure in this relationship. I need closure in this event. It just doesn't happen. Life doesn't work that way. It doesn't. you know A lot of times you just don't know why it ended. did You're not going to get to know why and And I love that lot of his work, and especially a lot of other Latin American writers, like their work encompasses that. Where can people go to find Angel City Review? AngelCityReview.com is our main. And then all our issues, we release as a free ebook.
00:24:47
Speaker
Okay. very Thank you so much for your time. hope you hope it was fun. Yeah. It was bearable. I hate my recorded voice. I apologize. i'm not going to listen to this. That's fine. That's fine. You don't have to.
00:25:00
Speaker
And now we hear from Harrison Gale at the Book Incubator, which is an MFA alternative program. She tells us a little bit about the program, the classes, and about the book she's working on. Although we don't want to talk about it too much because, you know, writers are superstitious.
00:25:17
Speaker
Please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about the Book Incubator. My name is
Book Incubator as an MFA Alternative
00:25:22
Speaker
Harrison Gale. I am the creative and business director of the Book Incubator. And the Book Incubator is an MFA alternative program. So it's geared towards writers who are looking for concrete support in writing a full-length manuscript, novel, or memoir.
00:25:37
Speaker
And we were founded by Mary Adkins, who is a three-time HarperCollins novelist, She's also one of our lead instructors. but We're also led by Rufy Thorpe, who's the author of Margo's Got Money Troubles.
00:25:50
Speaker
And our memoirist in residence is Greg Marshall, who's the author of Lick. How long have you been working at the book incubator? I've been working at the book incubator since the very beginning. so that was almost four years ago. Our birthday is going to be April 2025, and that's going to be four years. But I've been there since the very beginning.
00:26:09
Speaker
You mentioned an MFA alternative. Why is it important to have an MFA alternative besides the fact that they're very expensive and exclusive? Yes, I would say it's very important to have an MFA alternative because, and no shade to the MFA. There's plenty to learn. You can shade them.
00:26:25
Speaker
It's okay. They're expensive. shade They are expensive. Part of the genesis of the program when Mary was developing this program So she was thinking about doing an MFA years ago. she had graduated law school, decided that she didn't really want to be a lawyer after being a lawyer. for She likes to say I was a lawyer for five minutes. Tale as old as time.
00:26:46
Speaker
And she was taking some writing classes, thinking about doing an MFA. and she got accepted to a couple of programs. But then she realized when she was looking at the curriculum of these programs, she felt like they didn't offer concrete guidance on actually writing and publishing a book, that of course a lot of it was focused on developing writing techniques that also tended to be very specific. That this is something that we've heard from a lot of people who've done NMFAs, or they feel like there's a particular writing style that is very narrow. It is the only thing that's accepted
00:27:19
Speaker
quote-unquote, as like the kind of style to write in. And she wanted a space where she could discover her own voice, didn't have to adhere to a particular standard of her professor or program, and that also gave her more guidance in actually publishing the book.
00:27:37
Speaker
So she took what she learned from publishing her first novel called When You Read This, which came out in 2019, She took what she learned from that process and it took her six years to find an agent for that manuscript. And it went through so many versions. Super encouraging for people to hear.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, people need to hear this. It's a long and arduous process sometimes. Like people think like, oh, read the book and I'll get it done. You're on shelves in a year. Like this, it's a long man's game. But it took her six years. And when she finally did it, she was like, I don't want this process to be this difficult for other people who are in my position.
00:28:12
Speaker
I want to make it easier for them. There was so much that she learned about like writing query letters. Like she was like, the first query letters I wrote were terrible. Like they weren't specific. I was like spraying and praying.
00:28:22
Speaker
And of course, like she wasn't getting the results that she wanted. And so she said, if I can create something that can streamline the process for people and also help them discover a creative process that was repeatable so they can keep writing books and keep using a process that works for them,
00:28:40
Speaker
you know, that's something that that she became very passionate about. And then the book incubator was born. It was incubated. incubated and then birthed. Exactly. Very nice.
00:28:51
Speaker
Tell me a little bit about your writing. Yeah, so I'm also a writer. um You know, my my full-time job is being a creative and business director of the program, but I'm also currently working on my debut novel,
00:29:03
Speaker
which I'm a little superstitious about. You're not talking about it? But I will say... Right in the superstitious smoke. we know this. But I will say it is a, would say, comedy mystery that's set in 1971 Los Angeles. i love it.
00:29:19
Speaker
so A little bit of historical fiction, little bit of mystery in there. What classes are coming up that people should know about that are exciting? That is a great question. Our curriculum has a couple of different pillars and we cycle through them. And then occasionally there's like a special workshop that we'll do every once in a while. But Mary teaches writing the first draft.
00:29:37
Speaker
There are 24 writing lessons that she feels are essential. Part of the philosophy of the Book Incubator is again, streamlining the process. So not overloading people with material. but just focusing on what we think is going to be like the game changer stuff.
00:29:54
Speaker
So for example, like one, one workshop of hers that I love is called the three mindsets, writing, revising, and editing. She helps. ah work out how to shift your brain into these different mindsets. And she's also got another one called Anatomy of a Scene, which breaks down writing a scene into building blocks so that you can orient your reader and make it easier for them to understand and get into the meat of the scene so you're not leaving them confused.
00:30:22
Speaker
Then Rufy teaches 24 revision lessons. That's her wheelhouse. One of my favorites of hers is called Bleeding on Pizza Napkins, How to Use Details to Supercharge a Scene, which I love.
00:30:34
Speaker
She's also got another workshop on using a variety of perspectives on a big philosophical question in your book to enrich your characters and create more texture and natural conflict. And then Greg Marshall is our memoirist in residence, and he hosts a monthly Q&A in the program that's geared specifically for our memoirists in the program. So we've got something for everybody at any point in the process.
00:30:58
Speaker
That's incredible. All right, last question. What's a book that you can't stop thinking about? oh my gosh, a book that I can't stop thinking about. I recently read Piranesi by Susanna Clarke and i just like, I put that down and like, I just can't stop thinking about it What is it about that book that is unforgettable?
00:31:16
Speaker
I hadn't read something like that in such a long time that was so inventive, but also like it's a fantasy, but it's so grounded in the human condition. i felt like I was having an existential crisis at the time was done with it, but it was just so moving and so human and just kind of like imagining a world outside of our reality that still feels really concrete.
00:31:41
Speaker
I, yeah, I just had never read anything like it. So it's going to stick with me. And it's like, it's also a quick read. So we love, we love somebody who can like get in and out of there Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Where can people find the book incubator?
00:31:54
Speaker
So we have a website. We're at thebookincubator.com. And then we're also on Instagram. So you can find us at book.incubator. now I hope you enjoy my interview with Avidus B. Carl, the author of These Worn Bodies from Moon City Press.
00:32:11
Speaker
I caught
Flash Fiction Journey of Avitus B. Carl
00:32:12
Speaker
eyes with this beautiful woman at AWP with her gorgeous purple hair. and she drew me into her booth and I just, and all of these books are incredible. So I just wanted to chat. Please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about Moon City Press.
00:32:24
Speaker
Yes, so my name is Avitus V. Carl. I have a flash fiction collection out with Moon City Press. and Moon City Press is out of Missouri, Springfield, Missouri to be specific. They have the press, which I'm with, Moon City Press, and then they also have their review, Moon City Review, which publishes flash fiction.
00:32:43
Speaker
think they do poetry and nonfiction as well, but I am one of the authors from the press. And my Flash Fiction Collection came out November 1st, 2024. And I'm here at AWP selling it. Oh, my God. Congratulations. Thank How's it going?
00:32:59
Speaker
How's AWP been for you? Oh, it's like been fantastic. like This is my first year having a book. at AWP. So it's not your first year at AWP? No, I've been to AWP before. The first one I went to was in DC. That was several years ago.
00:33:13
Speaker
And I've been coming back ever since. It's just an excellent environment to get to know writers, meet new writers. get off of social media for once and see each other faceto face to face. But now that I'm here with a book, it's a completely different experience. I have to sell stuff.
00:33:29
Speaker
And it's very strange, which is why I have purple hair. was intentional. Yes. I need to grab people's attention. And then I like get them in and I'm like an angler fish. Like, look at my purple hair. And then hear about my flash fiction collection. Let's hear about your flash fiction collection. Yes, These Worn Bodies a flash fiction collection, 61 stories, all told from the point of view of women and girls.
00:33:54
Speaker
I have varying lengths of flash fiction, which flash fiction can be anywhere from 100 words to 1,000 words. So I have a story in there that's one sentence long, and then I have one in the form of a crossword puzzle, a resume. I have a paragraph-long story. I got third person, first person, second person, four-page story. I got a mix of everything for you.
00:34:16
Speaker
Tell me about flash fiction because I'm a novelist. Okay. I write... Really longs long books. Long. And I always see these contests and calls for flash fiction and I feel like you have to be so good to write something that short. So what draws you to flash fiction as a medium?
00:34:34
Speaker
i like the preciseness of it. So I really have to focus in on that moment in order to keep my readers interested. I don't have the room or the word count to really go into like the setting.
00:34:46
Speaker
and the exposition and the background and all this stuff. So I really have to focus on that real one moment right before the shift happens within the story and everything changes either for the character or for the setting or whatever I'm writing about.
00:34:58
Speaker
So flash fiction, I really just love the like length constraints because it really forces me to focus. I love that. And tell us about the journey to publication for you, how you found Moon City Press, what that whole process was like.
00:35:13
Speaker
I've been a longtime admirer of Moon City Press and Moon City Review. And I've actually, I do have ah two stories in Moon City Review and they published me in there and I saw that they had a contest going and I was like, oh, I have a lot of stories told from the point of view of women and girls. Why don't I put that in a collection and see what happens?
00:35:32
Speaker
Submit it to them. I did that. I won the contest and here I am. here she is. At NAWC. So you were saying it kind of feels weird to be selling your book. Talk about that a little bit. Self-promotion is part of being an author. yeah And it's kind of, but we we hide in our cave and we like work on our little stories. And then but we're supposed to go out in the world and sell them now? Apparently, like I was happy in my cave and let everyone else do the work. Like I'm not a publicist. I don't know how to shout from the rooftop that I have a book for sale.
00:36:02
Speaker
But I made stickers and I got the magnets together and... Writers were really drawn to the magnets. Like they're loving in this whole like, oh, I haven't actually drafted or edited or submitted and here's the reason why. and So it's really just figuring out what merchandise goes best with your book.
00:36:18
Speaker
You can hear that I'm also losing my voice. It's a lot of talking. won't keep you too long. You've got books to sell. I would love um doing doing the work. Doing the work.
00:36:30
Speaker
What book that you cannot stop thinking about? Oh, whoo. Tilly Walden writes a lot of graphic novels like Fun Home and all, well not Fun Home, but that's Alison Bedell. I can't stop thinking about that one either.
00:36:45
Speaker
But Tilly Walden, I'm in graphic novels right now. There's actually a graphic novel table here at AWP that I'm trying to get back to. I'm just in my graphic novel memoir mood right now. So Jackie Domenice, No Offense Memoir just came out recently.
00:37:00
Speaker
loved it yeah can't get enough where can people find your book and where can people learn more about moon city press yes so you can find my book through uapress.com you can also find it through mooncitypress.com it's on their website and then you can just visit moon city review on their website if you want to submit do all the fun things are on all the social medias and yeah and i'm avatice b carl everywhere I met Veronica Bustamoni on the first day of EWP and just had to go back for a follow-up conversation.
00:37:31
Speaker
Veronica introduced me to the low residency MFA at the Institute of American Indian Arts. Tommy Orange teaches there. My former mentor, Ramona Asubel, also teaches there. And it's, I would say, probably one of the best priced low residency MFA's out there.
00:37:47
Speaker
So I was really excited to learn more about this amazing program.
00:37:54
Speaker
Hello. Hi. Good to see you again. Thank you for coming back. Of course. Thank you so much for taking the time today. You're welcome. I'm glad that I captured your attention and your interest in our institution. Please tell me your name and the name of the institution that you work for. Veronica Bustamante.
00:38:11
Speaker
I am the MFA program coordinator for the creative writing department. At IIA, I am not a writer. I'm actually out of my comfort zone. However, i am acclimating to being surrounded by so many phenomenal writers and not only the writers, but our students.
00:38:29
Speaker
I feel like I've built this relationship with them that has inspired me to really want to be a little bit more proactive and continue doing some more reading as I continue with my studies as well.
00:38:42
Speaker
I'm also a student at IAIA. I'm going for my bachelor's in fine arts and museum studies. So the program is a low-residency MFA program. That is correct. It is a two-year residency program. There is a residency January for one week.
00:38:59
Speaker
In July, we also have a second residency for one week. And then the students get paired up with their mentors, and they do their online programming. How long has the program been in existence?
00:39:13
Speaker
That is a very good question. i want to say maybe a good 10 years. I think it's fair to say. And then we also have the master's program in studio arts and also in cultural administration.
00:39:26
Speaker
What type of students are you looking for? It is a very diverse college, so anyone that is interested in attending IAIA is welcome to attend. So you don't have to have any tribal affiliation or anything to be a student?
00:39:38
Speaker
No, ma'am. However, there are perks if you are tribal affiliated. There are scholarships that available if you're tribally federally recognized. And merit-based scholarships are available, and financial aid is also available. And what's the focus of the program?
00:39:54
Speaker
The focus of the program is to empower creativity, leadership in indigenous arts and culture through higher education, lifelong learning, and community engagement. Incredible. and When is the application deadline?
00:40:06
Speaker
The application deadline is February the 15th, and that is every year. And that would be for the term of fall 26, our upcoming term.
00:40:17
Speaker
Perfect. That's perfect. Thank you so much for your time. You're welcome. Thank you for telling me about the program. And now
Encouragement for Self-Publishing
00:40:23
Speaker
Chiwon Choi from Rit Large Projects shares with us why we no longer need permission to publish our work.
00:40:29
Speaker
My name is Chiwon Choi. And you're here with? Rit Large Projects. Tell me about Rit Large Projects. Rit Large Projects is an indie press that started over 15 years ago as Rit Large Press.
00:40:42
Speaker
Just to put out one or two books a year. and We just became a non-profit because the Allegheny County in Pennsylvania gave us 5,000 square foot building to open a bookstore and research lab. Where are going to research? Education, technology for writers and readers.
00:41:01
Speaker
That's really cool. We have the best time because it doesn't stop us from doing events, creating spaces where people can gather, have fun, enjoy art. Historically, we published mostly poetry.
00:41:13
Speaker
But our most recent three books that just came out Wednesday, it's a horror novel, which is a first for us, debut poetry collection, now debut short story collection that's speculative fiction.
00:41:26
Speaker
Very cool. Yeah. So kind of just doesn't matter what genre. The genre is not that important to us. It's just the art the writer is more more important. Any advice for people who are really hoping to get into publishing?
00:41:39
Speaker
My biggest advice, I say this to everyone, including teenagers or whatever, it's 2025, publish your own work. If you're still looking down on self-publishing as some inferior thing, then you just gotta to change your mind about that because that's old establishment structure.
00:41:59
Speaker
We don't need that. We don't need permission to publish our work. So how does someone do that if they don't know how to access it? Do encourage them to hire an editor or just do everything on their own? Right now, my first recommendation is even before doing that, start a newsletter. You could share pages from it.
00:42:20
Speaker
You could just share thoughts just so you get used to the idea that you're in control of your work and how it gets out there. I think that's the most important thing for me, you know? Now, if you're living in New York, you might be interested in this next conversation with Flo from Wendy Subway, which is an arts and literary organization in Brooklyn that hosts all kinds of readings and workshops.
00:42:43
Speaker
Flo shares with us upcoming programming and other opportunities for publication. My name
Experimental Works at Wendy's Subway
00:42:50
Speaker
is Flo. I have been at Wendy's Subway for about four years.
00:42:53
Speaker
I work on the programming side of things, so not so much the editorial side of things, but Wendy's Subway is an arts and literary organization based in Brooklyn. We have a library space and a reading room that people can come and spend time in, and we also publish a range of poetry books and artist books, mostly working with emerging writers and all kinds of different artists.
00:43:17
Speaker
We also host different types of events like poetry readings or screenings, as well as ah whole range of writing workshops, reading groups, listening sessions. What are your goals for AWP?
00:43:29
Speaker
We want to just meet more writers and have more writers be acquainted with what Wendy's Subway is and what we do. I feel like Just because we work with visual artists and interdisciplinary artists in addition to writers, I feel like what we do is unique. And so, i don't know, I feel like there's like a desire for that. What type of writing are you looking for?
00:43:49
Speaker
We're mostly looking for like hybrid genre works and things that are a little bit more experimental. Every year we do two open calls, one where we solicit completed manuscripts and another one where we ask for unfinished projects.
00:44:03
Speaker
And so that's one way that people can submit their work. I have finished projects. Being this space in Brooklyn, it's been around for 11 years at this point, acquainted with alternatively experimental publishing and artists, small press, artists book sort of scene in New York. We have connections that we are happy to offer mentorship to emerging writers. And we know that it's difficult to break into that world. And so, yeah, that was part of it. And the Carolyn Bush Award, and Carolyn Bush was one of the founders of Wendy's Subway.
00:44:31
Speaker
So it's like a way that we're honoring her and remembering her. Is there anything upcoming that you would want people to know about and just keep an eye out for? in May, we'll do a workshop on criticism with Hannah Black.
00:44:43
Speaker
That'll be online. We'll be at the LA Art Book Fair as well. That's happening in the middle of May. And what type of art do you do? I'm a writer and I'm also a visual artist. I wrapped up this interview series with another former Emerging Voices fellow, Chelsea Hodson of Rose Books, who's not only publishing incredibly exciting new voices through Rose Books and through the Rose Reader, but also has a vibrant writing community through her Morning Writing Club, which you can participate in and subscribe to. And I highly recommend you do. Let's
Indie Publishing with Rose Books
00:45:18
Speaker
just make sure test sound is coming through.
00:45:21
Speaker
Testing, testing. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. Hi, Chelsea. hi How's it going? I'm doing good. How are you? I'm doing great. How's the AWP? It's good. I'm here as a publisher for the first time and it's really exciting to meet the, especially the reader contributors in person who just put out the Rosebooks Reader.
00:45:40
Speaker
and a lot of the writers are here. And so that's been really special and cool. This is the first time you're meeting them. Exactly. And Katie, my managing editor, did a lot of the editing and accepting of the pieces, but it's been so great for me to read them and then meet these people in person. It's great.
00:45:54
Speaker
So, and it's great too, because people are actually reading it. Like some, I've received some feedback that, you know, sometimes when you publish something, it feels like it goes out to crickets. And I think people are actually reading the reader and that really excites me and makes me want to keep doing it.
00:46:09
Speaker
It's very validating. Talk a little bit about Rose Books. What was the impetus for starting it? How long have you been doing it? I taught a workshop with my friend Giancarlo Di Trappano who died in 2021, but he ran this really great press called Tyrant Books.
00:46:24
Speaker
And that in his absence, I started thinking that I could maybe adopt some of his ethos of saying fuck you to certain like elements of publishing and do your own thing because you can just do that and it does you don't need to be a millionaire to do it you can do it in a way and at a pace that makes sense so i started really seriously seriously thinking about it but i didn't know i didn't really feel ready and then i read this book someone who isn't me by jeff rickley And I approached him with the idea. i said, this is an amazing book.
00:46:54
Speaker
He was running into some roadblocks with publishing it. And I said, I think we could do this together. And he ah instantly agreed. He was like, yes, let's do it. And that started it off. And now that book is in its 10th printing and it's sold over 10,000 copies.
00:47:08
Speaker
I knew that that book would resonate with people. So that gives me a certain level of confidence to be like, yeah, I want to keep finding books that I feel like I could provide the right home for and that might not get published in a different capacity. Like, I know that book would have been published in some form, but I think the way we did it resonated with readers and his audience of people who know him through music.
00:47:30
Speaker
Talk a little bit about the difference between path of publishing in like through an indie versus a traditional... A traditional path always requires an agent, which I find so frustrating. When I'm coaching writers or working with writers, it's like, that's the only way in. And that is a bit gatekeeper-y. And what I find frustrating is that publishing goes through trends in this way, that it's like, oh, suddenly the type of book you've spent years working on isn't popular and so it's hard for you to find an agent and i find that so frustrating because it's just a trend and i think every book has ah level of readership it could have if marketed the right way so much is on the writer no matter if you're going on the indie path or the kind of like big five big four path but i find indie publishing really exciting because my first chapbook was published with an indie
00:48:20
Speaker
And i think only 300 copies were made. I didn't, you know, i got paid in copies of it That changed my life. Like it set me on a path to publish my essay collection.
00:48:31
Speaker
And i just saw the power of a couple hundred books. If that gets into the right hands and suddenly you're known as a writer and everything starts to change. I ended up getting an agent from that indie publishing experience.
00:48:43
Speaker
I was interested in pursuing whatever... It was possible for me, but I always have love in my heart for indie publishing and just think so much is possible when we're not confined by the boundaries of what's popular or what's cool.
00:48:59
Speaker
What over can sell and what's marketable. Yes, exactly. Which feels like it's kind of an art killer, right? Always, always. you know like the I just think it's such a shame that some writers have to be thinking about these marketing demands in order to make a living. you know So it's like, yes, these two have to intersect in some way.
00:49:17
Speaker
But I think indie publishing offers a more flexible model in some ways to write the book that you were born to write. I love that. And so what types of books are Rose Books looking for?
00:49:29
Speaker
ah have published two novels and one book of poetry. So I'm not really confined by genre and um I kind of know so many writers behind the scenes and I edit books behind the scenes outside of Rose Books that manuscripts have a way of finding me.
00:49:46
Speaker
So I haven't opened for submissions publicly for books because i only publish two books a year, including the reader. So it doesn't leave much room for that open submission period, but at some point in the future I will.
00:50:00
Speaker
Rose Books Reader. It's part magazine, part anthology. It's kind of more like a magazine, but just don't want to commit to publishing it at a certain frequency. Okay, fair enough. So it's a reader that comes out when I have time to do it. and Tell me about the books that you have out right now and where people can find them. The first book is called Someone Who Isn't Me by Jeff Rickley, and it's kind of like Dante's Inferno if The book took place in the back of a tour van. It's amazing.
Unique Voices and Gatekeeping in Publishing
00:50:29
Speaker
And so that's the book that made me start the press.
00:50:31
Speaker
It's now in its 10th printing. The second book I published is called The Holy Day. It's by Christopher Norris, who's known as an artist under the moniker Steak Mountain. And his book, we have he and I have talked about it as it's it functions as a trap.
00:50:45
Speaker
It kind of sucks you in and it resists the reader in certain ways. It's like a very active, adventurous book. I love that. And Fake Pinata is a very different book from those. It's a book of poetry, mainly about heartbreak and the longing to find a sense of home.
00:51:01
Speaker
in a play. So it's like a quieter book, more feminine in certain ways. And then we have the Rose Books Reader. So it's the fourth book. And then I have a book coming out this fall called Writer's Diary by a playwright named Matthew Gasta.
00:51:13
Speaker
The book of aphorisms about the writing life, doing plays in the theater scene in New York City in 2025. It's like he has kind of a 1970s sensibility, but he's in modern day, you know? And so he's kind of reacting to the culture in a way I haven't seen anyone do. That's what's coming out in the fall.
00:51:31
Speaker
Tell me a little bit about the Morning Writing Club. Morningwritingclub.com is a site I do that's $9 a month and offers the kind of resources i wish were available to me for that cost like 10 years ago.
00:51:45
Speaker
So I try to create resources based on what I think I either needed or do need. So the foundation of it is two-hour accountability Zoom every weekday morning. Wow.
00:51:56
Speaker
and we all write together and some people are members but don't attend that morning zoom and i do conversations with authors you know some of it is based on my experience with the penn center usa emerging voices program of like the opportunity to meet and talk with other authors was so valuable to me and so i try to offer that on zoom so that you can live anywhere and do that you Do you have any exciting talks coming up that people would want us to subscribe for? it Yeah, I have a writer named Sarah Hoover who wrote this book, The Motherlode, about her experiences with postpartum depression.
00:52:27
Speaker
And it's her first memoir and it doesn't read that way. It's like a really great, raw book. So I'm talking to her on April 8th. And then I also offer agent meetings every couple of months. I have agents come for an hour and then I host 15 minute meetings with members of the group to either pitch or just ask questions or get feedback on a query letter.
00:52:46
Speaker
So that's, that's been very productive. I've offered, I think about 50 meetings to different members in the past year. And one of them did sign with the agent because of the meeting. So that's kind of wild. That's incredible. Thanks. How's your writing going? It is, you know, ah it's hard to explain because it's like, there's so much else going on. And I've found that advocating for other people's work as a publisher, it's sometimes hard to fit in your own work because you get so caught up in committing to like, how can I best publish this book?
00:53:17
Speaker
So in a way they are opposing forces, but it's like, I still want to be a writer. So I just kind of find ways to fluctuate between the two, but the morning writing club is helpful for me. You know, it's like, I, i realized that when I was coaching writers,
00:53:30
Speaker
I would always show up for them if I had a meeting with them. But when I showed up for my own writing, sometimes I would skip it if I was too tired or I didn't feel like it. And I know that other people have that problem.
00:53:41
Speaker
There's a difference between disappointing yourself and disappointing someone else, right? Yes, exactly. that's incredible. Well, congratulations on this Thank you. And on your writing club. you have any advice for our listeners who are trying to get their first book out there and are feeling discouraged and need some words of wisdom? It's so hard. And I talk about this a lot in Morning Writing Club. So I would say if you're feeling discouraged, look for a community, if not mine, just somewhere else. Like I think a lot of people,
00:54:07
Speaker
find encouragement in a space like this where we realize like we're all in it together. We're all devoting our lives to art in some way, even though that's difficult. And just remember the path to publication might not look the way that you thought it would look.
00:54:19
Speaker
There's so many kind of twists and turns and things we don't anticipate that the success I see for people that have longer paths to publication is a lot about flexibility where they're saying, this isn't exactly what I envisioned, but I see now that it could work for me because of this. And it's like,
00:54:34
Speaker
You have to so in some ways relinquish the control that you have over the manuscript as you're working on it for yourself. You have to submit, you know, like like the verbiage around it is so informative. you have to submit, you have to, you know, be under consideration. And it's so frustrating.
00:54:53
Speaker
But I would say for people that feel alone in it, like try to find other people who are in a similar position and try to find resources to learn about your position. and I do sometimes recommend to people who are querying without without the response that they're looking for, consider Indies. Consider if that's a path for you um and just like be open to and think about what that would mean for you.
00:55:16
Speaker
Thank you so much for those wonderful words of wisdom. Tell us again where we can find information about Rosebooks and your writing. So Rosebooks is rosebooks.co and then Morning Writing Club is morningwritingclub.com and then I'm on social media under Chelsea Hudson. Incredible. Thank you so much, Chelsea. Thank you. It's so good to see you. So good to see you.
00:55:34
Speaker
This last clip is not an interview, but a recording of Amy Brill giving a toast at an offsite happy hour called Girly Drinks. Amy
Encouraging Writers to Persist in Storytelling
00:55:42
Speaker
opens with a quote from Matt Weiland, who is the VP and senior editor at W.W. Norton & Company, and closes with a call to action to remind us all why we're writing and how important it is to continue to tell our stories.
00:55:57
Speaker
He said, it's so easy to be demoralized about everything right now. And God knows it's always been easy to be demoralized about the past publishing. It can seem so long, so dark, so unlikely to lead anywhere.
00:56:12
Speaker
But writers of every level should know that there are legions of editors looking for them, spending their days and nights ignoring the news and their kids to read submissions in the hopes of finding that magical manuscript they cannot bear not to
00:56:32
Speaker
Even then, it doesn't necessarily yield a contract, and money, and all of that stuff, let alone hit. But the thing is, that editor is there. Of course, the path should be better lit and less mystifying, and it should be easier to match author with publisher, book with reader.
00:56:48
Speaker
But there is a magic to writing. So maybe it's fitting, but there is a magic to publishing too. Every writer worth the name and every editor ought to believe in both. Yay.
00:56:58
Speaker
Yay.
00:57:03
Speaker
I found that really inspiring and really important to hear. like I think that no matter where you're at in your journey, it's really nice to think there's someone out there waiting for my words. And the last thing i want to say is that after the election, I was really struggling to tell my daughters to know what to say. They're old enough. They look at the news. They know the deal. They're worried. They're anxious, like everyone else.
00:57:23
Speaker
And i what I told them was that we're just going to carry on. you know like We're going to do the things we've always done. We're going to support each other. We're going love each other. We're going to tell each other our stories. We're going to take care of the people in our communities who need help and support. We're going stand up for each other.
00:57:38
Speaker
going to keep doing that because that's what our people have always done. That's what every woman on this fucking earth has always done. They've gone on through all kinds of oppression and hardship and war and they had fucking made dinner and made sure their kids played outside and everybody drank water and done all the things exactly.
00:57:56
Speaker
And I told them that and then I was thinking about it and I know that they did that but I don't know the details because they didn't write it down. Like my people were not writers, they were not people who left journals or letters or books behind and so if we want the people who follow us to understand what life and what our struggles are and how we get them, we have to write it down. And so that got me back on track which as a writer and it has helped me immensely and I hope that all of you remember that and get us through it. yeah
00:58:32
Speaker
I hope that these conversations inspire you as much as they inspired me. Thank you so much. And I'll see you next week with Kelton on our next episode of Pen Pals.