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The Assassin at the Dinner Table
127 Plays2 months ago
What happens when writers turn their pen toward family and friends? Kelton and Krisserin dive deep into the ethics and artistry of writing about real people - from Kelton's dating blog adventures to Krisserin's fictionalized family histories. They explore the delicate balance between honesty and respect, discuss generational trauma in storytelling, and debate when to ask permission versus beg forgiveness. Plus: the perils of pulling turds from tiny butts, the joy of 5 AM writing sessions, and why having a writer in the family is like having an assassin at the dinner table.
Get in contact with us at: officialpenpalspod@gmail.com
Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Well, how is your schedule going? Let's talk about it. How did your week of spending time with your book go? I'm so curious to know. all right, well, I've got bad news. I'm Chris Aaron Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright.
00:00:11
Speaker
Follow our quest to publish our first novels. From first drafts to query letters. Through inevitable rejections. And hopefully eventual success. From California. Colorado. This is Pen Pals.
00:00:24
Speaker
Hey, Chris Aaron. Hello. Good morning. Good evening. Good afternoon. where Whatever time it is where everyone's listening from. Happy
Balancing Writing with Personal Challenges
00:00:33
Speaker
Pen Pals Day. i was really excited about this week because my in-laws were coming and the baby loves his grandparents, but not anymore.
00:00:43
Speaker
The baby has developed stranger danger right on cue developmentally. So he would not let them hold him. That basically was like, if mom is not holding me, I'll die.
00:00:57
Speaker
And then, well, Woods can't poop. He's got constipation problems. And so there were two straight days of him just being like, I'm in pain. and He won't drink enough water and he won't drink enough juice, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah Anyways, i ended up having to like pull the shit out of his little butt.
00:01:13
Speaker
um So I was not thinking about the book. I was thinking about his butt. He's such a charmer. He's in the room right now looking at me like, why aren't you holding me?
00:01:24
Speaker
But for the book itself, I had my class on Sunday and i was able to get an hour out of the hour and a half of it without the child.
00:01:36
Speaker
And then the child had to join for the rest of it. So the class got about 80% of my attention, but I did feel like I learned some things that I was immediately able to apply to my character profile of the protagonist and the antagonist, the opponent.
00:01:54
Speaker
And then out of the seven additional hours, I would say two and a half, maybe. ah Not great. I also had two nights where I just didn't sleep. um So ah yeah, you know,
00:02:09
Speaker
I love him, but he's not a great ah assistant.
00:02:17
Speaker
In terms of what I would do next week, I think I got to adapt to my goals a little bit. So I got two and a half out of seven hours. I did go to the class um and that's what I got.
00:02:29
Speaker
Some weeks just isn't going to happen. Some weeks you get the bear and some weeks you pull shit out of the bear's ass. Just the way Have you ever thought about having a child? Just keep in mind, you'll pull a turd with your hands out of their back.
00:02:45
Speaker
A ringing endorsement for motherhood. If if ever I heard one.
Academic Pursuits Enhancing Writing
00:02:50
Speaker
Tell me about your goals. Tell me someone got something accomplished. I don't want to brag. was successful in waking i was successful in waking up Within the hour of 5 a.m. m Monday through Friday of this week, I was not successful in getting a ton of sleep.
00:03:11
Speaker
It's really hard to break the habit of being a night owl. And my kids go to bed at 9.30. So... so If I am to wake up at five, I should be going to bed around the same time. And when I say my kids go to bed at 930, that means I'm screaming at them to get in bed at 930, which typically means that they're falling asleep um around 10 p.m., which is not great. It's not great parenting. I should make them go to bed earlier.
00:03:37
Speaker
but I don't know about you. I need at least a half an hour to an hour at the end of the day. That is just me unwinding in bed with a book so that I can go to sleep. I need that time for my mental wellbeing. And because I feel like it's just, it should be mine. And I don't want to just go to bed right after I parent. I want to have a little bit of a moment with myself. And so I will take that moment, whether it robs me of time in the morning or not.
00:04:05
Speaker
But I feel like by Wednesday, I had figured out how to get to sleep and I was getting more than six and half hours of sleep Wednesday night, Thursday night.
00:04:16
Speaker
And that helped a lot because I felt like I was getting up at five o'clock in the morning on Monday and Tuesday, but my brain, even with a huge cup of coffee, was still in a fog.
00:04:28
Speaker
But yeah, I got a lot of writing done. i got some, i know I'm a bit of a pantser, but I did do a little bit of organizational plot work this week too. So I felt good about it. I felt ah good about the writing that I did.
00:04:40
Speaker
And then similarly to you, i am also taking a class. I'm taking a pro seminar through Harvard Extension's Creative Writing and Literature Program. And it's like being back in college. It's not so much a creative writing class as it is a literature class. And so I'm dusting off my English literature degree and diving into short stories and doing close readings and writing books.
00:05:05
Speaker
academic papers about literature, which I have not done and over 20 years, but I feel like it's making me a better writer. The close reading that we're doing, the unpacking of language and sentences and thinking about word choice and why the author chose a certain POV and how they're presenting information is really building up my capacity as a writer in a way that I haven't done in a really long time. but Which brings me to a point that I wanted to make as I was thinking about a previous episode when we talked about MFAs and how
00:05:36
Speaker
um rampling yourself romanticizing, shitting on them at the same time. But I do feel like the study of literature and not just workshopping, which I think in my mind I was...
00:05:50
Speaker
putting most of what I think an MFA is into that workshopping bucket. wow The actual academic study of literature is something that I really enjoy. And i know it will make me a better writer. And I know that people who graduate from Iowa or have any type of graduate degree in creative writing have studied it in a way that I just don't typically do in my own life unless I'm forced to. When I'm reading ah book, I'm doing it for pleasure and escapism. I'm reading a lot of writing that isn't exactly like what I write and a lot of fantasy novels and things of that nature. But this week I read Karen Russell's St. Lucy's Home for Girls Raised by Wolves, which I immediately sent to you, Kilton, because it feels like
00:06:37
Speaker
One and a half pages before I got babied. Okay. It is and incredible story. And I wrote my paper on it this week. And then we read Tommy Orange's The State, which I related to a whole hell of a lot.
00:06:52
Speaker
And the writing of both of those pieces is is just remarkable. There's a reason why they've won awards and people are studying them in classrooms. So being exposed to that high quality of literature and looking at it through an academic lens is making me a better writer and making me want to get a graduate degree.
00:07:09
Speaker
it was a little work. I spent like probably double digit hours writing my paper. so I'm really hoping get a good grade on it. Yeah, you'll have to report back for us.
Impact of Reading on Writing
00:07:19
Speaker
I mean, I i think inevitably that taking a class, as long as your professor is good, that there' there's always value, no matter how much you're like, what stakes you have in it, whether you're getting a grade or a degree. i love to read books for the enjoyment the first time. And then if I really like them and really like the genre, I'll read it again to be like, how did you do that?
00:07:41
Speaker
What was the trick that you employed? When did you first put this little Easter egg here? Like, how do you transition from writing in like what your their character is experiencing as real time and then flipping back to when there was a flashback? What is the turn of phrase that like connects it that way?
00:08:00
Speaker
um I love doing that with Ann Patchett's books. I think she is a master having somehow multiple POV without ever actually doing it. She transitions so beautifully between characters.
00:08:13
Speaker
And for my current book, The Keep, I have been reading urban fantasy to see where the magical elements in those books appear and how the protagonist or opponent, whoever the character is responding to them in real time.
00:08:29
Speaker
Just because I'm still thinking about in my book, is it shocking? Is it surprising to the people? Is it commonplace? Are they expecting it? So I think reading with a critical lens is always going to teach you something. And it taught me that it takes a lot of time.
00:08:44
Speaker
I cannot read a book more than once unless a lot of time has passed and it is something that... i get a lot of value out of. i have a really hard time doing it. My parents are re-watchers and re-readers to the extreme.
00:09:01
Speaker
i think they've seen The Gladiator or maybe over a hundred times. i will call them up and be like, what you doing watching The Gladiator? How many times can you watch Russell Crowe get the crap beat out of him?
00:09:11
Speaker
i don't know. But i really struggle rereading books because I feel like my brain, I get so distracted. I get bored because I've read it before. But Bel Canto by Ann Patchett is one of my favorite books of all time. And then I just listened to Tom Lake, Meryl Streep Reads,
00:09:28
Speaker
most recent Oh, maybe I should listen to it. It's on my TBR list, my to be read. i just haven't gotten to it as I'm focusing mainly on reading books that are in my genre.
00:09:39
Speaker
But yeah, so Ann Patchett got her MFA from Iowa. Of course she did. She's incredible. After reading that novel or listening to that novel, which I consider reading a novel, it was so smartly written.
00:09:53
Speaker
I feel like you could teach an entire class on on Tom Lake just in the way that she constructed it. And she's a ah master for a reason. so I do think it's worthwhile to reread books.
00:10:05
Speaker
And for me, an academic setting and being forced to do it, and especially i think short stories are a little bit more palatable. It's something that is achievable for me. So i I am happy with the class I'm having with the writing that I'm doing right now. And I feel like I'm slowly marching towards the end of a first draft. I'm halfway through.
00:10:25
Speaker
yeah.
Incorporating Personal Stories in Fiction
00:10:26
Speaker
Feeling good. I do feel like I need to admit to you that I have reread Bel Canto twice, but I never reread the last chapter because I hate it. Oh no. End the book in my own imagination. And then I carry on with my life and those characters in that way.
00:10:43
Speaker
so to If you haven't read Belcando, you should, you definitely should. They made a movie out of it. I haven't seen it. didn't know that. ipa it is It is quite the genius. And she got her MFA from Iowa. So good things do come out of those programs.
00:10:58
Speaker
ah All right. This week we're talking about people. We talked about a few authors that we don't know, but we're talking about writing about people you do know. They say to write what you know, and there's a reason they don't say to write who you know, because those people won't like it.
00:11:18
Speaker
It might sue you. We talked a little about this in the last episode or maybe the one prior to that where I mentioned that I write about town politics. And inevitably, that means that I'm writing about people.
00:11:31
Speaker
My town is not... The 3 million people in l LA County, it's 180 people. So even if you're being vague, even if you don't include their names, there's only so many people who come to the meetings.
00:11:45
Speaker
So you kind of know who I'm talking about. And so I obviously tread really lightly, but I have a long history of writing about people because the first successful writing project I really had was a dating blog.
00:12:00
Speaker
And boy, did I date. So I wrote about a lot of people. And in those days, it was anonymous. And I was writing under a pseudonym. And the blog was called Date by Numbers.
00:12:12
Speaker
The original premise of the blog was that I had complained to my mom that I never met anyone. And she was like, that's not true. You meet lots of people. You just don't like anyone.
00:12:23
Speaker
And so to refute her point, I was like, fine, I will number the guys who make a legitimate pass at me so that we can see who is right. Turns out she was absolutely right. I didn't like anybody.
00:12:36
Speaker
And that blog had the people... listed as numbers. So I'd be like, I'm going out with 22 tonight. But you know, like 18 is texting me and I met who's going to be number 24 last night.
00:12:50
Speaker
And so people were written about extensively. When I finally dropped the pseudonym and decided to go by my own name, which is right around the time I got a book deal for that blog, I did have people reach out and be like, am I number 57?
00:13:07
Speaker
And I was like, yeah. Yes, you are. Glad you could tell. thanks But at the same time, you and I have discussed this before, it's if you don't want to be written about in ah insulting manner, perhaps you should not do insulting things.
00:13:28
Speaker
And I will say that at first 57 was like, I don't love this. And then a year or two later, he got dumped by a new girlfriend and she had listed all the same reasons I had in my blog.
00:13:42
Speaker
And he wrote to me and he was like, i just had to come back and say, you were right. It is me. I am the jerk and I'm sorry. And I was like, aha. Righteous.
00:13:53
Speaker
I'm so happy. But there was another person who wrote to me and they were like, should I read this book? And I was like, no. Some of the pieces about you are embellished and it's going to hurt your feelings. i don't think you should read it.
00:14:07
Speaker
And that is the risk you take when writing about people. In your case, you're writing... creative nonfiction, right? You are writing about real people that you know and using either their names or alluding to their names in a way where they can recognize themselves.
00:14:27
Speaker
But what about in fiction when we write what we know? And a lot of the characters that I write about are an amalgamation of lots of different people and stories of people that I'm inspired by.
00:14:41
Speaker
I think that is that's difficult because what does that mean for for us as writers? are we using the people in our lives in ways that are ethical, you know, where's the line between inspiration and imitation with the people that we know.
00:14:59
Speaker
I took a class at UCLA, I think it was a creative nonfiction class where, or it might've been even in my fellowship where I was told that having a writer in the family is like having ah an assassin at the dinner table.
00:15:14
Speaker
And I feel like that is somewhat true. And I've experienced that and in in my own life. I recently wrote a short story that had echoes of my mother in it. And my mom has an incredible story of her own where she was born in the Philippines to parents who met during World War II, one of them Filipino, one of them an American GI, and she came to the States when she was three and then was the eldest of eight children in a Catholic family.
00:15:40
Speaker
And a lot of what I put in that story was, what it's like to be the eldest child in a family where you are basically parenting your siblings, right? you There's a loss of childhood that happens when you have big families like that.
00:15:54
Speaker
And it's sad. Like to me, that's very sad. When I think about my mom's childhood, and I know that there were things that she missed out that she couldn't experience and couldn't be a child because she was helping her mother, who was an immigrant to this country and was navigating all of these things and really relied heavily upon my mom.
00:16:10
Speaker
to be able to survive. So i have a lot of empathy for that. And I included that in my story. And when I sent my story to my mom, who is my first reader, and I'm so curious as to whether or not you allow your family members to read things. um She told me it upset her.
00:16:26
Speaker
and I felt horrible. it upset her, I think, because she felt the echoes of her childhood. And I didn't write it in a way that was dismissive that experience, but with a lot of empathy. I wonder if our family members are looking for themselves in our stories.
00:16:42
Speaker
When we posted the first episode of Pen Pals, the title of which is Be My Disappointed Dad, I put it on Facebook and my dad commented on it underneath it and said, honey, what's this thing about disappointed dad on your profile? and I was like, it's not about you And he goes, okay, good, because I'm not disappointed in you.
00:17:06
Speaker
I'm like, I know, dad, I love you. Yeah, I did think about that too, because my dad is probably my biggest fan and he's rarely disappointed in me. I can't remember.
00:17:18
Speaker
and think there were times in high school he was disappointed in me, but I earned them. Yeah, it's funny. I've never really thought about my parents looking for themselves in the writing because I do go out of my way to not write about them.
00:17:31
Speaker
A few times I have written about my parents, it's an homage. And so it's written with the intention of honoring them. And they're usually involved in that process. I've written extensive pieces on my mom being backcountry ranger and tracking mountain lions in the wilderness.
00:17:48
Speaker
I've written a lot about my dad being a smoke jumper and a ski bum and how he shaped his life. And those are the things about my parents that I really love and respect and I'm fascinated by. And so when I write about that, it's very easy for the piece to be like, hurrah.
00:18:03
Speaker
And I just don't write about any of the things I find challenging because that feels a little like airing dirty laundry. And it's not... You know, for me, if I want to have a difficult conversation with them, it's not going to be through an essay.
00:18:18
Speaker
It's going to be person to person. There was one piece probably. i at least seven or eight years ago that I wrote and shared with them first, first time I'd ever done that, to be like, is this okay to publish? It was about another family member who I've had a really challenging relationship with since birth.
00:18:40
Speaker
And they were like, you can't publish this. You can't damage that person's reputation in this way. And i I disagreed, but I respected their wishes.
00:18:52
Speaker
And that for me, it's like I have this whole story that for me is so formative in who I am and how I live my life the way I do and how I make decisions that I have never been able to write about publicly.
00:19:05
Speaker
I write about it privately all the time. but there is this like dark corner of my house that is simply not allowed to be photographed. And i I really struggle with that. And I have tried to incorporate that relationship in fiction.
00:19:22
Speaker
And I have not found a way to do that successfully where it's not just an exact replicant of that relationship. And that person informs some of my characters in some ways, but I've never had a character based on them. And I probably won't until the dust is very settled in that department. I hate to be so vague. I'm normally very open about everything happening in my life. It's how I like to live my life. It started a long time ago when I was assaulted in college, like after I was sexually assaulted.
00:19:56
Speaker
Every guy I dated for the first two years after that, I just was like, I just want you to know i have complex PTSD. And sometimes even when you're perfect, if you touch me the wrong way, i will have a flashback and I'll have a fucking meltdown.
00:20:10
Speaker
And so I loved being able to be that forthright with people because you weeded people out immediately. And that's how I've chosen to live my life is I like to be exactly who I am so that people who don't like me can make a quick exit.
00:20:25
Speaker
And not being able to share this part is really challenging for me. And it means that if I can't address it in my writing, I almost never think about it in my life either. so it's But you have to respect those wishes.
00:20:39
Speaker
And you don't, I guess I should say, you don't have to. You could be the kind of person who is like, I don't give shit. Fuck you. going to write about this. But I do have a really good relationship with my parents and I do love them.
00:20:52
Speaker
And they've requested this. And it's the least I can do to honor that request to not write about this other person. I think a lot of writers come up against those challenges all the time, especially if your relationships are contentious with a lot of your family, because then you're kind of like, what do I have to lose?
00:21:09
Speaker
maybe you'll read this and it'll be like the family therapy. We need it. Yeah. I mean, we as writers write about the things that are formative to us, right?
00:21:20
Speaker
And so much of that is our family and our family history and in our family dynamics. but My big book, the one that I'm writing now has to do with three generations of women who are dealing with what we call a curse. And in my my family on my mother's side, there is this concept of the Casperson curse. And I don't think it's something that exists outside of how my mom and i describe our family.
00:21:46
Speaker
But I'm sure that if the rest of my extended family, and remember, this is eight children, each of them had two to three children, all of us have two to three children. We're talking probably about 50 people. My grandmother brought a lot of life into this world in her small four foot 11 Filipino frame.
00:22:07
Speaker
I don't think that they would appreciate this idea of a Kasperson curse. Can you tell us what a Kasperson curse is? Sure. I'll try. Here's how I would describe it.
Exploring Family History and Trauma in Writing
00:22:20
Speaker
My family, are is comprised of very smart, very talented people who are very self-destructive.
00:22:30
Speaker
People who could have all of the opportunity in the world, but something is keeping them from achieving success. And it's typically something within themselves that makes them feel like they don't deserve it. It is the self-defeating cyclical thing that stops us from going after the things that would actually change our lives, whether, and that takes the form of addiction or not going after opportunities that are presented to us because we feel like we're going to fail, things of that nature. a lot of us have overcome that curse, but there are still family members that are in it.
00:23:11
Speaker
And I think that has a lot to do with the fact that The family is really large and dealt with poverty. And my grandmother had a lot of struggles as an immigrant in America coming to the United States in the 50s when there was a lot of anti-Asian sentiment. So...
00:23:30
Speaker
She assimilated and we lost all of our Filipino culture, which is a story that's very common for people who are part Filipino. But my mom dealt with all kinds of stuff being biracial and american in America the fifty s and 60s. And so they dealt with a lot and struggled a lot as a result. and there was echoes of it in the children and grandchildren that are alive today. So I see it a lot. I see my cousins on Facebook. Some of them are doing great. Some of them are not doing great.
00:23:55
Speaker
Yeah, because you want to tell that story and you don't want that aspect lost to history. But for the generations prior to you, you really need... i Maybe you don't, but it seems like you need permission. It seems like you need a deep dive with them to capture that story accurately.
00:24:11
Speaker
But if they're not writing it, do you feel like you have an obligation to write it? There is an obligation to capture For history's sake, for preservation's sake, the stories of the people who came before us.
00:24:25
Speaker
I think that no family is without struggle and without some history of pain in it in order to not repeat. history We have to learn from it, correct?
00:24:38
Speaker
And so I feel like it's really important to document it. in And I think when you can name something, when you can look at something and say, this is what that is, it's easier to overcome it, right?
00:24:49
Speaker
And not repeat it. So it's definitely, we're talking about breaking... a generational trauma. We're talking about not passing on these things that we've inherited to our children. And my mom did an incredible job of raising me and making sure that I felt like yeah she might've overcompensated because here I am. She really made me believe that I could do anything that I put my mind to. If I wanted something and I would go after it that I could achieve it.
00:25:17
Speaker
And she had crippling self-doubt and anxiety that she did not pass on to me. She's like, i'm not giving this to you. You're going to be great. You are incredible. You are amazing. You're going to go out in the world and change things. And I appreciate that. I had to break that down a little bit because I was like, I'm not better than anybody else. My parents had a very much the same approach, but they were always like, but you do need to have health insurance.
00:25:40
Speaker
You can do anything as long as they offer health insurance. That's very practical. Yeah, that's... That's definitely them.
00:25:51
Speaker
I appreciate that. But yeah, I think it's important to tell these stories. i like doing it through fiction because it allows me to add a lens that I don't think that I could do in creative nonfiction. In my current book, there was a grandmother character who ah the main character grows up idolizing and thinking that she is this incredible woman who is full of adventure and fun and someone that she wants to grow up to be. Her mother is On the other hand, the daughter of this woman keeps telling her, don't idolize her.
00:26:23
Speaker
She's not perfect because she's insulated her daughter from all of the damage that her grandmother you know put upon her. And so you get to see the main character idolize the grandmother and then come to realize at the end, oh, actually, she's not as incredible as um i thought she was. She's human.
00:26:44
Speaker
And being able to blow people up like that and make them larger than life and then bring them down to earth, I think is something that you I guess you could do it in creative nonfiction too, but there's these tools that we have with within fiction that allows us to almost over embellish, right? In a way that I feel can really enrich a story. Like I said before, i hide behind fiction. And I can take these things from all other places and craft a story that can draw a person in. I think that if I were just to tell you point blank, this is the history of my family and this is all the stuff that we went through, you'd be like, geez, that's heavy.
00:27:21
Speaker
But when you put it into a story and you fictionalize it, I feel like it's a little bit more palatable.
Ethical Considerations in Writing About Real People
00:27:25
Speaker
Yeah. Recently, the man who built the house we now live in passed away. And I wrote a little tribute to him in the essays.
00:27:34
Speaker
And I had been reading his his obituaries in the various newspapers in the region. And they're all very flattering. When in reality, this man was quite the asshole. And like a womanizer. He was an attorney who frequently broke the law himself. He was a real bad boy. And it's funny when you're reading a tribute to a person and it leaves all that, the reality out.
00:27:58
Speaker
There were only a couple of quotes in those obits where like some of his friends had a little tongue in cheek kind of thing to say. But I do feel like once they're dead, you really do have carte blanche to just be like, no, the reality was quite complicated. and There are a lot of people who hated that man.
00:28:14
Speaker
and I thought about that at my own grandfather's funeral when everyone got up there and was just like, he was such a blessing. What a soft soul. We loved him so much.
00:28:25
Speaker
And he was a cool guy, but he was also the crankiest person i had ever met. And I remember my mom getting up there and being like, what are you guys talking about? She's like, this is the guy who is constantly like, I are bugging my butt, Sal.
00:28:42
Speaker
and It's tough to capture the essence of a person accurately without some of the fallout. I try in my writing, especially because a lot of it is about me, to capture when I am less than. like When I write about making friends or something, i try to point out, I'm like, I'm really bad at being the person to reach out.
00:29:04
Speaker
I live in this kind of bubble where I'm like waiting for people to invite me because I feel so let down when I make the effort. So I want to point out, I'm like, I don't make the effort. I'm bad in that way. These are the ways that I am bad.
00:29:16
Speaker
But you can do that with yourself. Doing that to another person is ah is trickier. When you're writing about this three generations of women, do you ever think about your daughters reading the book?
00:29:34
Speaker
I hope they'll read. they They'd want to read my... writing. Yeah, but do you think about their perception of it?
00:29:44
Speaker
Do I think about their perception of it? I guess the way that I think about it is by the time my children are old enough to read the book, all the things that I want to talk about in that story and all the lessons that I'm hoping that I can show the main character has learned will be so embedded in their understanding of how the world works that they will be not surprised. It should feel really familiar and comfortable.
00:30:10
Speaker
And like their mother is whispering in their ear. Oh, that's really beautiful. Thanks. I recently was going through my desk and I found all these old notebooks and one of them was from the year we met 2015.
00:30:26
Speaker
was like me you. Uh-oh. uo Did you write about me? I did not, but um I wrote about, that was also the year i met my husband. And so i wrote. i remember i remember hearing you talk about meeting him.
00:30:44
Speaker
like A very long entry about meeting him that starts with, I think this might be important to have written down one day. And then there's just seven pages of very explicit content.
00:31:01
Speaker
And you've got to publish this. You have to share this. It's so funny. And then I just was like thinking about W3 reading it when he's older, how horny his mom was for his dad.
00:31:16
Speaker
Cause the whole thing is me just talking about how much I want to bang Ben. That's seven pages of that. Lord.
00:31:26
Speaker
And so now I'm just starting to consider, like it is a, it was pretty immediate rule of mine that I don't really want to write about in any way that is, that he would have opinions on later. What is he going to care that I wrote about changing his diaper or that he loves his clock? Like those things I feel like are comfortable.
00:31:44
Speaker
But to write about him as a person, i feel like is private. I'm personal, but what am I risking and what am I putting out there by writing something that he will read and just be like, Jesus, mom, God, so embarrassing.
00:31:58
Speaker
and You're so gross. I'll say exactly what my parents would say. they should You should be so happy we're in love. So you're envisioning your son reading your essays as a teenager, i guess.
00:32:11
Speaker
Yeah. yeah I when I picture him reading my stuff I picture him as his most annoying self so like a 16 to 17 year old boy what if he's like an angel teen you know at his parents
00:32:29
Speaker
do you you have anyone else in your family read your work does Ben read your work Nobody reads my work in advance. I'll tell you that much. There are occasionally pieces I'll have Ben read in advance.
00:32:43
Speaker
And Ben does read all my essays after they're published. I don't have any control over who subscribes to my newsletter. My parents subscribe to it. My in-laws subscribe to it. Many of Ben's family members subscribe to it. My mom's best friends read it.
00:32:57
Speaker
And I don't think about that when I'm writing. And because one, I'm not writing about any of them. I'm writing about my life. And if something I write about, they're like, well then they can unsubscribe.
00:33:11
Speaker
It's a newsletter. Well, there's going to be issues you don't like in reference to that piece about Ben. I do want to publish that on our 10 year anniversary. And I will start with a disclaimer.
00:33:22
Speaker
I'll be like, are uncomfortable ah reading about my sexual desires. You should skip this piece. Make yourself comfortable with some other type of reading this morning and move along.
00:33:35
Speaker
And then it's at their risk if they want to read it. And if they get to know me a little more completely than they wanted to, that's not really my problem. I think you have a ah healthier attitude toward it than I do because ah even the way you described making friends, the fact that you were just, this is who I am If you don't like it, you can make an early exit.
00:33:59
Speaker
I'm better about it now. But in my earlier years, I was much more desirous of people liking me and worrying about what people were going to think about me. And I'm still that way. I feel even with what I'm writing now that when I picture it,
00:34:16
Speaker
on the shelf in Barnes and Noble. i don't know if you've ever gone into a bookstore and be like, where would I be? oh there was myography Oh yes. um Obviously, we're on one of the front tables. Hello.
00:34:28
Speaker
I mean, right? We have a whole display. The whole window and the front of the store is just my book. Yeah. One quick aside, I had a teacher, Les Plesko, who said, i i allow myself just a couple minutes to imagine my greatness before I get back to work. And so I do the same thing. You're like...
00:34:46
Speaker
daydreaming a little bit about what the world could be like when and if you ever get to publish your novel. But I i feel there is a sense of of fear and nervous and anxiety that i have about people reading my work and what they think about it and what they take from it. It's something that I have to get over because i truly feel like things that I'm writing about are are stories that I can confidently put into the world that I think people can get something from. And again, it's a little bit about divorcing yourself and your ego from the work, which is a hard thing to do. But i admire your courage and how you operate, how vulnerable you are with your essay writing and the fact that you are writing about real people and aren't afraid if they read it.
00:35:32
Speaker
is admirable. And it is, i think, something that people who are writing fiction or nonfiction can put as a little nugget of information and draw from for their own storytelling, because we can't avoid writing about people we know.
00:35:46
Speaker
It's going to happen, whether it's explicitly or inferred, right? It's just about how we do it. When I think about someone reading my work, I think about them, and this is maybe this is main character syndrome, but I think about them perceiving me in a more complete way, not in how they see themselves in the work.
00:36:08
Speaker
And... That probably is inaccurate. Everybody is always thinking about themselves. And so when you pick up a book written by someone you know, you are probably looking to see if you are a side character in it.
00:36:21
Speaker
When I was writing that dating blog, eventually, even while it was still anonymous, a bunch of people knew that I was writing it. And you could tell when guys were like trying to get me to go out with them just to see what I would write about them.
00:36:36
Speaker
And I was like, this is strange. I am not going to date you. I do not like this feeling of you being so creepy. But people will look for it.
00:36:46
Speaker
And I think I do have a character in my book. There's a mother figure in my book who is not at all based on my mom. But I do feel like I would need to tell her that to just be like, this woman is not.
00:36:59
Speaker
a reflection of you at all. This is a completely made up person based on snippets I've read from books and movies and TV. This is not our relationship. And i almost feel like I'd have to say that in the acknowledgements page.
00:37:13
Speaker
I just want to acknowledge that this character is not based on Maggie. Maggie is nothing like this. Just to clarify, because there are times when you're reading and you're like, wow, somebody really hates their ex.
00:37:29
Speaker
Again, that is the reader putting themselves first, and I don't often think about that. So what's your advice to someone who's worried about writing about people in their lives?
00:37:41
Speaker
what would you call someone who came to you and said, Kelton, you seem to be really comfortable
00:37:49
Speaker
writing about people? Yeah. You have to be comfortable with the consequences. And so it so there was one time that i mentioned earlier where I wasn't comfortable with whatever consequences I thought may come. And I ran the piece by those people and they said no.
00:38:05
Speaker
and And there were still consequences. They read the piece. Even if no one else read the piece, there were consequences from them reading it alone. If you want to buy personal essay about yourself and your perception of the world, which is what I often do and share it with people, then you just have to know that at the end of that, you will be more known more.
00:38:29
Speaker
It's just I'm so comfortable with the idea that people don't like me. I could list to the people that don't like me and I'm happy that they don't have to deal with me.
00:38:42
Speaker
It's like their lives are better because I'm not in it because they don't like me. And like when I write and someone is like, wow, I really disagree with you. i think your opinions suck.
00:38:53
Speaker
You're vapid. Whatever they think. And they get to delete me and unsubscribe and stay away. i think that's lovely. Think about your least favorite coworker you ever had.
00:39:04
Speaker
And imagine the day you didn't have to work with them anymore. It's just, oh, over. I don't have to see her ever again.
00:39:16
Speaker
What a dream. And so by being myself, I am allowing other people to experience that dream with me. You're giving them that joy. Yeah. something I do think it's important because people say it all the time. They're like, it's very brave of you to write these things. It's very courageous.
00:39:32
Speaker
I am not experiencing that. I'm not like, I hope this goes well. I am experiencing relief by being my most authentic self. And so it doesn't take courage It just, it's selfish is what I'm doing.
00:39:47
Speaker
I want to be more completely known. And this is the only way I know how to do it. Growing up, something that helped me a lot when I moved from this small desert town called Apple Valley, which is not as small as the town that you live in, but it was small. Everyone was socioeconomically equal. We were all poor.
00:40:05
Speaker
For the most part, was not wealthy. And then I moved to Newport Beach, which is very wealthy and struggled a lot to find my footing. Something that my mom told me was, and I don't know where she got this figure or if she just made it up, but she said, 2% of people that you meet are not going to like you for not no reason ah for that you have in your control. They're just going to look at you and you are are not going to be for them and they're not going to like you. and there's nothing that you can do about it.
00:40:29
Speaker
And that made made me feel really good and gave me a little bit of clarity. And I think what you were saying where it's, those people can just move on and I don't have to try so hard to try and win them over because I am a little bit of a people pleaser and I find all people interesting. It's the Libra in me. I can see the good and the bad in everyone and look for the good in everyone. oh There have been people that didn't like me that I would look at like, but I've been
00:40:56
Speaker
And I had to get over it. But ah when I think about the same question that I asked you, which is my advice to people who want to write about people that they know or who are in their lives from a fiction perspective, I think that.
00:41:10
Speaker
I find it somewhat irresponsible for someone who is writing a fictionalized story to just like whole cloth steal a person's likeness and dump it into a story or use a person's story or likeness to drive their storytelling.
Creative Techniques for Character Development
00:41:25
Speaker
I think that it is inevitable for writers to pull from the people that they know and be inspired by characteristics or backstories or things that inform the identity of that person, but also has have has had an impact on you.
00:41:41
Speaker
But I think to just pluck someone up and put them in your story is not responsible writing. And also I think it's lazy and it's not creative, right? I think that if we are true storytellers and there's something about that person's backstory or something about them that has meat on it, that you feel like would enrich a story about something else more broadly, or is um is crucial to the theme of something that you're writing about, then that's great. But you understand,
00:42:07
Speaker
as a creative writer need to be able to understand when you're stealing and when you're borrowing and when you're inspired and when you're imitating. And there's a fine line between that.
00:42:17
Speaker
And I think your instinct of going to your family and asking, is this okay to publish is one that we should all remember, because if you have a feeling like maybe I'm playing it a little fast and loose here, you probably are. And might be something you want to run by.
00:42:36
Speaker
the people who may or may not and be impacted. Like the story that I wrote, I was not talking about my mom, but I did borrow things from her life and it upset her. And I never would have even thought that. My mom reads everything that I write. She is my first reader. She's my cheerleader. She thinks I'm the best writer after Ursula K. Le Guin.
00:42:59
Speaker
So yeah I think if you have people in your life whose opinion you value, who you love, who you would not want to hurt that you are including in your fiction and you have a feeling that something that you've written might not come across the way that you want, then it might be worth having them take a little read of it before you publish. I think that's great advice.
00:43:22
Speaker
Yeah. Um, It's tough. I think I would pluck a full character, but not their life. I think that the elements that make up their story, I would not steal, but I would base a whole character off of my old landlord.
00:43:39
Speaker
But I think some of it is that I'm willing to base a character entirely off of someone who I only know on the surface. I think if you're like, I'm basing a whole character off of that barista, or like I'm basing an entire character off my town's mayor, you know, like these people that maybe, you know, at an arm's length, and you only have the surface details that because you do have to construct everything that's under the water for them for a character.
00:44:07
Speaker
If you know someone, from top of the sail to bottom of the hole, then I do think you are stealing them. But if you only know water surface up, then I think you can construct enough of the bottom to just steal what you know.
00:44:22
Speaker
But what if the barista is like, I know I'm the barista in your story. That's why every novel- You my whole backstory wrong. Include the line in the novel where it's like, all these characters are completely fictional. You can't sue us.
00:44:38
Speaker
I would just highly recommend that you do not write about anyone who has any type of power over the things that you put in your body, like your food. because you't No loogie lattes. Yeah. Change aspects of that.
00:44:55
Speaker
Some people are just so inspiring. What did I write to you after you published that story in The Guardian? Because you had written about your landlord and then you'd written about the previous owner of your home. Oh, my admiration and fascination with old men.
00:45:11
Speaker
I think that I said, yeah I think, I feel like you have a collection old men that just like gravitate towards you. really love old guys. I find them so charming. But i and it's fair to mention in that Guardian piece, I used a pseudonym because...
00:45:26
Speaker
While my old landlord, he's not on social media. he's He is in his late 70s, but he uses a pseudonym for his own email.
00:45:38
Speaker
So I wasn't going to use his real name in the Guardian. I only shared light details about him that you wouldn't be able to reference who he is. They were very personal to his, his and my, our, to our relationship.
00:45:53
Speaker
Did he read it? Did you send it to him? No. No, I did not. Do you think he would take kindly to his representation in the article?
00:46:07
Speaker
Yes, I think his representation, he would. I know it's a really touchy area. And the problem is you never know someone's full story. People don't know mine. People don't know yours. And people won't know my landlords.
00:46:22
Speaker
But we can try and fill in the blanks with how we talk about them and not them in particular, but... people like them. i think that's why we draw from these people that we know is we admire them and there are things about their character and their nature that we want to memorialize. Right.
00:46:40
Speaker
That is the whole crux of it. Absolutely. All right. So we're writing about people this week. How are we going to get it done? What's your goal? That's a great question.
00:46:52
Speaker
I really like this new five to seven writing routine that I've developed. I'm hoping that I can continue to do it. Last week, I did end up applying to two residency workshops that I had on my radar.
00:47:11
Speaker
I am still trying to figure out if I'm going to apply to MFA programs. Ooh. It's so expensive, but I like having options. So I might do it in order to have options, but that includes reaching out to teachers and people that are in my life that I would need recommendation letters for. So I need to figure that out sooner rather than later because the deadline for those things um is March first continue on my schedule and then just continue pushing along. I think the structure of my novel as I'm reaching the climax and getting towards the end needs a little bit firmer construction.
00:47:45
Speaker
I've been pantsing it for for most of this draft. I really want to get to the end of a first draft pretty soon. Amazing. And i feel like I'm halfway there. So I'm hoping that by the time we chat next week, I figure it that ending.
00:48:00
Speaker
That is my puzzle for this week. But how about you? Wow. the That's a lot of... ah Okay, you just listed like four different goals for one week. You're like, I'm going basically finish my novel and think about my MFA and wake up at 5 a.m. every day.
00:48:17
Speaker
i will applaud you on your 5 a.m. m goal. For the listener, Chris Aaron was texting me when she sat down at her desk since I am a time zone ahead. So she really did do it.
00:48:30
Speaker
She really was up.
00:48:34
Speaker
I found it very motivating, honestly, to get those text messages from you. I was like, she's doing it. Cool. This baby won't stop crying. Knowing that you're on the other end motivates me to do it. So it's, you know, the ah the whole idea of an
Podcast as a Writing Accountability Tool
00:48:48
Speaker
accountability buddy. I guess it works. It's working for us, right? with This podcast and talking about these things each week is keeping us on our toes and making sure that we're getting the work done.
00:48:58
Speaker
Yeah. And it turns out I am my own disappointed dad. Oh my gosh, wait. Full stop. I have to read you something. A friend of mine is a psychologist and she posted this article on LinkedIn about the seven phrases that hurt our kids more than we realize. And I'm reading through it and I laughed out loud because let me just read you this section, okay?
00:49:16
Speaker
um Number three, expressing disappointment without support. Example, parents might convey disappointment by stating, we thought you could do better.
00:49:27
Speaker
was right.
00:49:29
Speaker
Okay. right This is not good parenting for me. But if you say, i thought you could do better, here's how I think you could do better. And so i am my own disappointed death by being like, God damn it, babe. I thought you could have done better. And then coming to you and being like, okay, here's how I can do better.
00:49:54
Speaker
love that for you. So this week, Let's see. I have class again on Sunday for which I already did my homework. Very proud of myself for that. I read an entire book and I wrote out the seven key story steps from John Truby's Anatomy of a Story for that novel.
00:50:15
Speaker
In terms of my own book this week, I'm to a little mix. I'm going to do a little mix. I am going to say three hours. Okay.
00:50:26
Speaker
And 1,500 words. okay Okay. 1,500 words can happen in those three hours. who you know But I did find that I was missing, even though i spent three hours on the book, it felt like I got nothing done.
00:50:43
Speaker
And I don't like that feeling. The word count does help me. be like, I made tangible progress. So I'm going to do a little mix and match of quantity of hours and quantity of words and see how that feels. I'm also making my goals much more realistic this week.
00:51:01
Speaker
And hopefully W3 has a really good week. He's not constipated. He pooped all the poop there was to poop. And it's all we can hope for, really. I keep telling him, I'm like, it's going to get better.
00:51:13
Speaker
Like pooping gets better. And Ben's always like, no, it doesn't. Ben needs more fiber in his diet.
00:51:22
Speaker
But my in-laws are heading out. And so we'll back to our normal routine. And that's a little, even though I was excited about someone holding him the whole week, our normal routine is a little simpler for me to function within.
00:51:35
Speaker
So yeah, we'll see. Three hours, 1,500 words. Since we've started, what's the max amount of words that you've been able to write in these weekly check-ins? 2,000. two thousand Okay, so 1,500 is achievable.
00:51:49
Speaker
yeah It's not ah stretch goal. No, it's very achievable. It is not a stretch goal. And I also, just for myself, I wanna put this out there, be myself accountable. This is not including editing.
00:52:01
Speaker
I'm not allowed to edit this week. That's a goal. That's an anti-goal. No editing this week. I'm allowed to take um allowed to leave a note. I'm allowed to be like, change this later. But I am not allowed to circumvent this goal by doing something sneaky.
00:52:17
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. New words, all new words, new scene, new, new, new, new. All right. Well, before we sign off, I am curious if you have written about someone that, you know,
00:52:32
Speaker
or have a very particular process for how you tell the people in your life that you're writing about them, drop us an email at officialpenpalspod at gmail.com because we'd love to hear from you and get some insight into this very interesting writerly problem that we find ourselves in. So email us at officialpenpalspod at gmail.com. We've gotten some emails from our listeners already, and they were lovely, and we'd like to hear from you. So please shoot us a line, and you can follow us at Pen Pals Pod, on all the social media platforms. We're on all of them now.
00:53:06
Speaker
All right. Well, until next time, make sure you are subscribed and that you rate this four to five stars. It's fine you want to be realistic or we won't know it's you. And keep the ink flowing and the words coming.
00:53:19
Speaker
And we will see you next time. you next time.