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Good Enough to Get Ghosted For a Year
154 Plays2 months ago
In this episode of Pen Pals, Krisserin and Kelton unpack what it really means to "be published," trading stories from their own winding paths through the writing world. While Kelton reflects on her journey from anonymous Tumblr confessions to bylines in The Guardian, Krisserin shares a fresh rejection letter from her year-long query journey and contemplates the various doors (and price tags) to literary success. The friends explore how privilege shapes access to traditional publishing paths, debate the value of MFAs versus real-world experience, and celebrate Kelton's impressive feat of writing 724 words one-handed while nursing her baby. Their candid conversation reveals the messy truth behind those coveted "published author" credentials, ultimately suggesting that maybe the best path forward is the one you forge yourself - whether that's through perfectly crafted queries or late-night phone typing sessions. Through their characteristic mix of humor, frustration, and unwavering support, Krisserin and Kelton demonstrate that even the most daunting publishing dreams feel more achievable with a friend to commiserate with along the way.
Get in contact with us at: officialpenpalspod@gmail.com
Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Three, two, one. This is Pen Pals.
What does it mean to be published?
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm Chris
00:00:33
Speaker
felt like something was chasing me down an alley to finish writing. It's me. This week, we are going to talk about publishing, getting published, what it means to be published,
00:00:47
Speaker
talking to you a little earlier about how like saying I'm published is like saying I'm a writer. it It kind of means nothing until you add context to it. And so this week, we're going to talk about the ways that you and I have been published, what we want our future of publishing to look like, um and what it takes to achieve some of those goals, um whether it's a a blog, an article, a magazine, all the way to the big leagues.
Reviewing and Setting Writing Goals
00:01:15
Speaker
um But first, we've got to talk about last week's goals. What was your goal last week? And how well did you do? Well, last week, my whole goal was to rework the first chapter of the manuscript that I'm going back to after several years. And I did do that, but I ended up producing a lot more new content than I did really spend time working on revising what I had. But I felt like it was time well spent because I'm in a mode of production right now and I don't want to stop that to go back and polish something that is probably going to change um again. but
00:01:58
Speaker
One of the reasons I wanted to work on that first chapter was to get it ready for submitting for certain things that I'm applying to, but the deadlines for all of those things are, well, some of them are in February and some of them are in March, so I do have a little bit more time. But how about you, Kelton? Did you hit your Your word count goal? Your word count goal. um I did not. My word count goal for this week was 2,500 words and I got to a little over 1,300. I did spend a fair amount of time working on character weaknesses and problems um and so I was thinking of you because we had talked last week about how word count goals are sort of
00:02:41
Speaker
they can They can kind of mess you up because you're trying to churn out just words instead of something valuable. um And I am actually just trying to churn out words instead of something valuable right now, so that does align with what I want. But I did feel good about using some of that time to just think about the motivation of my protagonist and and why she's doing what she's doing and what kind of is the catalyst in the story.
00:03:09
Speaker
usual but I will say 724 of those words were written on my phone behind my baby's head in bed while I was breastfeeding him to sleep so I felt amazing because I was like I have a whole scene in my head and I was just ti in the dark with the lowest like phone setting. and I had like the pillow blocking the light from him. And I was just churning and burning last night felt so good.
Challenges in Writing and Tools Discussion
00:03:36
Speaker
And then I was like, okay, we've made we've made some progress.
00:03:41
Speaker
That is incredible. You are not the first person who who has told me that they write on their phone, which I find incredible because is it our generation that we're so mobile native? It feels natural to write on our phones. I can't do it. I also have an Android. So don't judge me, but I don't know if it's like the Google keyboard makes it really hard. I'll like swipe to text, but Typically, I'm an old lady now. I'm using voice to text because I cannot be bothered to even write out a text message, let alone write over 700 words on my phone. I do think I should clarify that i while I enjoyed it ah happening, I
00:04:27
Speaker
don't like doing it. I hate writing on my phone. I would much prefer to be at a laptop because I find editing on my phone so painstakingly. i i just There were a lot of times where I just put TK TK because I was like, I will come back to this on a computer. Right now, there's no reason for me to come back and finesse this sentence. So I just would kind of write the words I did want after the words I wanted to delete. And I was like, we'll delete the rest of it later.
00:04:55
Speaker
I will say word count was adjusted this morning to reflect that. So. Were you going and counting your words specifically because we were going to talk about them? Yes. I went to a word count website on my phone this morning after I changed everything and was like, okay, cool. Amazing. I can be accurate.
00:05:16
Speaker
you know, come in with be like official goal 2500 and then be like, I wrote like something like 1000. It's when I wrote 1307 words. Incredible. When you are writing, are you just writing in word? Are you not writing in? ah Like I use Scrivener. I don't know if you've ever used that program, but what I use. Okay.
00:05:41
Speaker
Because there is a way in Scrivener to show you your writing statistics if you really want to nerd out. I have it on when I'm in Scrivener I've got my like project targets on so I can like see the bar tracking how I'm doing. But I also do a fair amount of work in Google Docs.
00:05:59
Speaker
um I'll just go full screen on a blank Google Doc and go to town um because i I do find that this whole setup of Scrivener and where I can see like my scenes and my acts and things like that sometimes I just am like, but where does this fit in? And I'm like, don't worry about it. Get out of your way. And that's when I go to Google Docs and I just like blow it up and I'll worry about placement later. All right. so Based on what we set as goals last week, how do you feel? Do you feel like even though you didn't hit your word count, do you feel good about the writing you did last week? Yeah, I do.
00:06:38
Speaker
I feel like I know my characters a little bit better. I feel like I got some some backstory in my head. um One of my characters writes like limericks and little songs and I wrote one that I love um for the story. It's funny writing lyrics for a book because it's like you really have to have the kind of like a lyrical cadence to the writing in order for it to translate at all.
00:07:06
Speaker
but I think it, I think it works. I think it works. So I am happy. Are you happy? Yeah, I am happy. I wrote a lot. I don't want to tell you how many words I wrote, but I wrote a lot because I don't want to make you feel any way about it. But I wrote a lot and it's, um, it's interesting because I'm looking back at the manuscript that I had written. I almost had, you know, 2016, I think I said was the last who might opened it. And I don't know about you, but have you ever revisited something that you were working on?
00:07:36
Speaker
almost a decade ago and just feel really bad about it. You're like, this is horrible. There are some lines where I'm like, wow, yeah that's art. Look at me. We're going to talk about in this episode something I wrote when I was 23. So yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Journey to Becoming a Writer and Publishing
00:07:58
Speaker
23 for me was so many years ago, I think I've lost any files. And no, there's no publishing footprint to um go back to, but that is brave. You're brave. I might call it foolish. So. All right. Let's get into this week's episode. Content publishing. um Have you ever been published? I mean, yeah. Kind of. So.
00:08:31
Speaker
I primarily focus on novels, which is not something that has a very short to life cycle in terms of getting published. So I have written the odd short story here and there and did have one published a really long time ago in a literary journal that no longer exists. That's a literary journal.
00:08:57
Speaker
Yeah and I want to talk about that a little bit too because I think last week we talked about short stories that we've done that we would love to find homes for and I have been on the hunt to find a home for a short story that I worked on recently and it feels like there are no literary journals anymore or at least when I go and search for literary journals for science fiction or speculative fiction which is where I've been spending a lot of my time there aren't a lot of publications out there, or if there are, they're closed for submission, or if they are accepting submissions, it's like, um you know, quarterly they publish, or maybe they have a short submission window. So it feels like this, you know, this thing that exists, but I don't know how to access it.
00:09:49
Speaker
If that makes sense. Yeah. Or you find that the costs are prohibitive to apply or the word count, it doesn't align with the story you wrote. There's like always some reason where you're like, okay, great. Well, never, nevermind. Um, it is but for the faint of heart. You had gone the literary route so early in life. Yeah. I, I felt, you know, I would love to hear about your earliest instinct that you or your earliest um feelings of wanting to write and be a writer. I was on the phone with my mom yesterday and she, my house was always filled with books. And I was recalling that she loves Jane All, the clan of the cave bear novels. I don't know if you've read any of those, but they're they're massive books and they're not for children. And I told her, I think the first writing that I ever did
00:10:46
Speaker
was in fourth grade we had to do book reports and we would get points for reading books based on how long they were. So I went to the bookshelf and I found Clan of the Cave Fair which is not appropriate for a nine or ten-year-old to read.
00:11:01
Speaker
And I read the back of the book and I made up what the book was about in a book report. And that's probably me lying and cheating in my English paperwork or my my um book reports where it was my first writing, you know? um I love you for that. Which really helped me throughout my English literature major at UCLA. Did a lot of skimming. um But it was really at the end of college that I i started writing and realizing that I wanted to write and be a writer. And I got an internship at Harper Collins in Los Angeles while I was in college. And so I knew that that's what I wanted to do and did write a very short, short story. It did get published in the Broadkill Review, which I don't believe exists anymore, but it was very short. It was, which I feel like there's more opportunities for short, short fiction or flash fiction. The short stories I write now are, you know, probably 2000 plus words.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think the short story I have is like a novella. It's like 20,000 words. So yeah. Very But what about you, ah Kelton? I feel like you have published a lot. Like a lot. I mean, in some ways, I think the first time I was published for real,
00:12:25
Speaker
was Teen Vogue. I did a few stories for Teen Vogue many moons ago. But I started, I came up through the blogosphere I was a Zanga blog spot girl, just writing stories about my life. I came to writing through performance. I was a performer. I loved acting. I loved singing. I loved being on stage. I loved speaking and telling stories. And so writing came to me as like a secondary thing that I fell in love with later in life, probably when I was about like,
00:12:59
Speaker
22 or something like that is when I really started to write. I've had many blogs but in the successful ones I had a Tumblr that was called Date by Numbers that had many thousands of readers tuning in for my dating escapades and that blog was later turned into a book by Thought Catalog Publishing.
00:13:24
Speaker
aye Thought Catalog, you know, was known for its emotional pulls on the heart. And I think Thought Catalog, what it was trying to do back then, is what Substack has successfully done now. It was trying to become this sort of network of writers that lift each other up, that publish both blogs and books. And so my book was published through them. um At the time I had a really successful author friend who I sent the book deal to. And I was like, this is bad, right? And he was like, yeah, but it's your first book.
00:13:59
Speaker
just say yes like what are you 23 publish the book you moron and i was like okay i will um and so that that book exists you can buy that book on amazon i get no money from it um i think i total i made like two grand over 10 years but it sits on my bookshelf and it has my name on it after publishing that book
00:14:24
Speaker
You know, I think that you know writing is so affected by where you are in your life and who's in your life. And when I published that book, I was in a really bad relationship. um And he basically ruined my enjoyment of publishing that book and steered me away from writing. um And thankfully, I steered myself away from him shortly after, but I also steered myself right into a career. um And that is about when I met you.
00:14:54
Speaker
ah That's when i I, the next like eight years of my life was just like, go to work, make money, win the rat race. And then I was like, wow, I hate these rats.
00:15:07
Speaker
So ah publishing went on a hiatus. But since then, um you know, it's like my hobbies have always driven publishing. Runner's World, Bicycling Magazine, um Cosmo. And then now, ah you know, The Guardian and ah bigger publications
Breaking into the Writing Industry
00:15:24
Speaker
like that. So it's it's taken a long time to get there, though. Tell me a little bit about the process of getting into these magazines, because I personally have never submitted a proposal for a publication, and I know that the publishing landscape, especially for magazines, and even the digital versions of those magazines, has changed a lot yeah since we have been working and um have joined the rat race. or I started in you know editorial content for web publications when I was a baby in my career. i I started working right after college and i have
00:16:04
Speaker
joined the rat race really early and then always worked on my hobby of ah writing on the side. Not that it's a hobby, it's my my passion, but it was always the thing I did on the side. But I would love to hear about how do you get published in Teen Vogue? How do you get published in Cosmopolitan? And is there some sort of pedigree that you have to have?
00:16:25
Speaker
to be considered for by the editors of those publications. All right, well, I i have bad news. um I never pitched any of those places. um Most of the times that I have been published just because an editor knew my writing from the blogs and asked me to write for them. So, I mean, i in a broad scheme, that sounds really lucky, but it also means that I did, I have done years and years and years and years and words and words and words of free work to get noticed like four times.
00:17:03
Speaker
And those editors have kind of stuck by me. And there's been a lot of ah you know times when someone will be like, you know, you can pitch me. And I'm like, yeah, but I also love to write what I want to write. I went through maybe a year where I was avidly pitching publications.
00:17:21
Speaker
And I just found no joy in it. I hated it. Because it was like, you spend all this time coming up with an idea and finding the right place for it. And then no one wants it. And you're like, well, what was the point of this? And so I just didn't really do it.
00:17:38
Speaker
I was the managing editor for Headspace for a few years. I ran their editorial content and I got pitched probably at least 30 pitches a day. And it was mainly just me being like, nope, nope, not a right fit, not the right fit. And I also hated that. I hated telling people no. I find that whole part of the industry really challenging. And, you know, I obviously publish on Substack. I write my newsletter. I publish myself weekly.
00:18:07
Speaker
doesn't technically count as being published but every once in a while you'll get a ah good piece in. Last week I alluded to a piece I was worried might get killed and it did get published in The Guardian called The the Landlord and the LA Fires and it is about my old landlord in l LA and his experience of losing his home.
00:18:30
Speaker
And so that piece felt great. It felt, it feels good to be in The Guardian. I'm not going to lie. I love doing essay writing that gets published a more big, but you know, I think this time because my editor is awesome and she got me a little blurb at the end that linked back to my newsletter, it did help me in ways beyond money. Um, and it was an adapted piece from the newsletter. So it was like, I'd already done that work, uh, and,
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's tough to pitch. It's really hard to break into the industry in that way. I find it both encouraging and devastating that you have to write so much to get those few opportunities that you have gotten to publish. Because if I were to imagine someone listening to this and having come through your sub stack or heard your name somewhere else in the annals of the internet, to know that that's what you've had to do to get to where you are right now, which is still, by the way, you know, this podcast is about us trying to get our first novel novel out into the world. We are both combined. We have so many, we have decades of experience writing, and we're still working towards towards it, towards some sort of semblance of publishing success.
00:19:55
Speaker
but I think that if someone were to walk away listening to your words, it all goes back to writing what you said, writing what you love and writing what you want to write about. and finding the joy in storytelling, the things that you want to share with the world, right? I think there also is, because I don't want to discourage anyone from doing this if they want to do it. Wanting to do it is a big part of pitching magazines. The thing for me about my writing is that I don't have like an idea and then gestate on it for like a couple weeks and then write something.
00:20:27
Speaker
When I write, I just get the urge to write and I sit down and I write. And so I end up writing a piece. And magazines don't want your piece. They want your pitch. So there are a lot of people out there who they think of an idea. And if you have an idea for a story,
00:20:44
Speaker
and you you're gestating on it, then you have time to be like, who would be interested in this? Like, what magazine would publish something like this? And so if that's your approach, I think then it's much easier because you can be like, all right, I want to write about um how Christmas trees um add to the carbon footprint.
00:21:07
Speaker
and whether or not, you know, a fake versus real Christmas tree is worse for the environment. If that's kind of your vibe, the thing you want to write about, then you can go look like would outside magazine want this? Would the Atlantic want it? You know, there's like a range of publications and you can start pitching them while you're thinking about the story and contacting sources.
00:21:28
Speaker
If that's the approach you take to writing, I think that is magazines are are right for you. You can get in that way and build a career quite easily. There were a number of people I worked with while I was an editor at Headspace who had built their careers that way, who still have those careers who love that kind of writing. But I am an essayist and like essays are harder to place in publications like that. you know People think of like modern love as like the the ultimate essay placement. um And even that, it pays to know the editor. um So you know there's not a lot of places for the kind of writing I do. And so i I know the place for it. And that is in a newsletter and a blog. And people just have to fall in love with the way I write.
Handling Rejection and Building a Writing Platform
00:22:17
Speaker
And I'm lucky that some people have.
00:22:19
Speaker
There is something to be said though, about the fact that when you're pitching to, if, if, and when you do, I know that you're not doing that as much anymore. And, but your pitching is Kelton right. And someone could have heard of you or search on Google for your name and see all of the content that you have published. And it helps get your foot in the door. And I think that that is so much of publishing is how can you get your foot in the door so that when people see your name, they want to pay attention to what you have to say. It kind of goes back to when I went to college and as a freshman, my stepdad, who is by the way, the only immediate family member that I knew that had gone to college, he said, you need to, on the first day of class, you need to go up to your professor and introduce yourself because you're going to be in a classroom of two or 300 students. And when it comes time to grade a paper,
00:23:16
Speaker
or an essay or whatever it may be, they're gonna be nameless pages until they get to yours and go, oh, Chris Aaron, I remember Chris Aaron. I had a conversation with her. And then there's more of a yeah ah warm reception, right? I have a little bit of, I have some things that I can put on my writing resume. I took a ton of classes at UCLA like Extension, so I met a lot of teachers and writers through that. I was a Penn Center Emerging Voices Fellow, so I have that I don't know, validation or qualification of my my writing background, but it still didn't do anything for me when I was queer agent. Yeah, I mean, it's tough now because some agents um and some publishing newsletters, wherever you're reading about this sort of thing or listening, will say that in the end, platform doesn't matter if your book is good enough. But if your book
00:24:14
Speaker
is 95% good enough, then having a platform inevitably matters. You know, it's it's a hard game to break into, just like everything else now. Even when you do query getting out of the slush pile is really hard. I think having a recognizable name or having things on your writing resume that distinguish you from everything else that people are getting is a huge advantage.
00:24:39
Speaker
I spent a lot of money to get things that are on my writing writing resume. I took a lot of classes. These are not cheap classes through UCLA Extension. I'm taking classes through Harvard Extension right now. And a lot of that is because I'm getting a lot out of those classes. I'm learning a lot, but I'm also meeting people who can write letters of recommendation, introduce me to people. It's, you kind of pay your way in, you know? yeah And that is,
00:25:07
Speaker
something that because I've been working and you know have a spouse who has ah a good job and we have ah you know money saved these are things that I can spend money on to help get me in front of people but I wish there were other ways it's still the still writing still has to be good you're right it has to be really good so that they can't ignore you I think in addition to paying your way in, you can also play your way in, which is a lot of what I have been trying to do. A lot of the interactions I have with other newsletters, it's like I'm reaching out to people who's writing I think is really good, who are covering things that I think are fascinating.
00:25:46
Speaker
and building friendships with them because I'm like, i I think you're really cool. But inevitably, like those people, it's a, you know, rising tide lifts all boats, <unk> etc. Not true, but it does lift some boats.
00:26:00
Speaker
And i when I see good work on Substack, I share it. And I've been having a lot of fun meeting people and building relationships that way. I don't have a writing group in this tiny town that I live in. And i my writing friends are all online. And obviously, my pen pal. So I do think that you can build relationships. I think that's a way. um But my writing is, you know,
00:26:28
Speaker
the reason that worked is because some of my writing is like way lowbrow and easy to write and it's like fast publishing. I think some of the essays I write now are very grip They're great. They're very great. But a lot of the the way in was like more commercial, more fun stuff. you know it's like i wasn't writing I wasn't part of the the shift at Teen Vogue writing about politics. I was writing about fun summer camps. It's not like some agent was like, wow, what a take.
00:27:01
Speaker
you know it's like I just I went in the low way and I think that that's a valid fun way to go um but I I too have started to like pay uh I'm taking a class in February on plot um and that you know it costs money to listen to experts
Writing Education and MFA Programs
00:27:20
Speaker
um so play your way in pay your way in so if someone were to think about how they can get into publishing and they were to follow your play your way in model. It sounds like I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like starting a sub stack or even a blog or just having a place to get your words out into the world so that you can gain attention would be a good foot in the door. Yeah. It's also great practice. Like I publish every single week and it has made my writing
00:27:58
Speaker
much better like I go back and read three years ago and I'm like no I'm a better writer now and so I think you know you got to put in your hours you but it's like you got to put in the time to get to know people too if that's going to be your approach I think you want to if you want to get your MFA and meet people that way and try the traditional publishing route without any connections. like That obviously happens. It works for people. um But it is brutal and hard and full of rejection and very expensive. But if you're like, I just want to write, start a blog. you know Give yourself a publishing schedule. Maybe it's once monthly. And you know narrow in on your niche until you find what you want to be writing.
00:28:45
Speaker
I recently looked up these MFA programs because I'm all it's always this thing in the back of my mind like I'll just go get ah an MFA. You know, Susie, do you want to know how much they cost? Oh, god. Do you know how much they cost? I'm I mean, I just kind of assumed it would be minimum like 40 grand. That's a great guess.
00:29:11
Speaker
That's a great guess on the low end of where they start. And I'm talking about low residency MFAs because I have a family and I cannot leave my family to go to Austin or what's it Iowa City? Is that where it is in Iowa? Or like I,
00:29:35
Speaker
I haven't even looked it up. I have never in my life considered getting any kind of master's degree. I knew day one of college, I was like, this is it. I you know i had an amazing copywriter professor who was like, he was trying to be real with me. He was like, Kelton.
00:29:56
Speaker
are you Do you really think that you're going to go to law school? Which is sort of what I thought. I loved law. I still love law. I think it's fascinating. um But when he was like sitting me down, he was like, you're never going to do it. It's not who you are. He was don't even want to be here. You don't want to be in the world when I think about an MFA. I know it's not for me.
00:30:19
Speaker
I know it's not for me and it's not for the kind of writing I do either. Like the fiction I do is like kind of fun and silly. Like I will send you the short story that I wrote and you will see that it is not MFA friendly. I will say not to defend MFA's because I don't think I think they're indefensible. They should not be this expensive. There are some MFA's that are genre writing friendly and the the Harvard Extension graduate program that I'm taking classes in right now. The last class I took last semester was Advanced Science Fiction. And they have horror and humor writing and fantasies and fairy tales. And they have a lot of classes that would probably be interesting to you. But when I think of MFA students, I want to piss off any MFA students. If you paid for this degree and you had the
00:31:17
Speaker
luxury and the privilege to spend two years studying writing. I'm, I'm, it's just jealousy. Let's be real. Like I want to do that too. But when I was talking to, um, my teacher Mark Sarvis, I keep calling my teacher Mark Sarvis, he taught at UCLA extension and he helped edit my book and has been a really great resource and friend to me. He got his MFA at Bennington when we were talking about what the future of the book that I queried that seems to be going nowhere. And I have an update on that.
00:31:47
Speaker
but Where that was going to go, or should I be considering MFA's or what it may be, he told me, he's like, I don't really know of a lot of programs that are friendly to genre fiction. And I write speculative fiction, but I also write literary fiction. So I would want to attend a program that encompassed all of those things. I don't know if MFA's are the path to publishing. I feel like a lot of my friends who got an MFA have published. That can't be a coincidence, you know? so In terms of how we get to the next step in a career where we want to publish a novel, I feel like because you have published so much, even though it's essays and pieces that have been published in, um you know, Teen Vogue and Cosmopolitan, it's going to help you when you do end up querying because you do have to include a resume of here are the things um that I've done and here are the places I have been published and it's going to put your
00:32:45
Speaker
submission or your query on the top of the slush pile. And I think that that's, when we're thinking about publishing, it's always, yes, you got to write a book that's so good that they can't ignore you, but what can I do to get my submission or my query to the top of the slush pile? Which brings me to the rejection I got this week. Shall I read it to you? Oh, I would love to hear it. Okay. So just so for some background, I,
00:33:13
Speaker
sent out queries at the beginning of last year, around February, March timeframe. I had three agents request the full manuscript around March. Two of them were connections that I had through other people because that is how we get our work in front of people. I think it knowing that I queried 70 and 67% of the full manuscript requests that I got were through people that I knew I think is very telling about how the process goes.
00:33:42
Speaker
the one and only agent that requested my full manuscript through this querying process on query tracker finally got back to me yesterday, two days ago. January 23rd, 24th, whatever day it is that we're um you know recording this. So this is what she said. And then let's talk about it a little bit.
00:34:07
Speaker
So thank you for sending me insert name of manuscript here and for your patience while I reviewed your work with my team. I'm so horribly saddened that it took me this long to get back to you. to Me too. um Which is a sign to me that my bandwidth is already stretched. However, I really wanted to fall in love with this story, so I wanted to take my time to give it the most consideration. It's good. Which makes me sad to say that ultimately I'm not the right agent to represent this, so I'm passing on offering representation.
00:34:40
Speaker
So, I mean, is that the end? No, there's more, but it's like, you know, hopefully I'll see your book on shelves. and You'll get an agent and my opinion is subjective, like the kind of boilerplate rejection. I've gotten like 50 of them. So for you to offer any like this was sort of the thing that didn't work.
00:35:00
Speaker
Exactly. So that is a thing that frustrates me, right? Yeah, that is frustrating. It's particularly painful when it's a novel because it's like years and years of work. It's not two weeks of like, what does Runner's World want to publish this week? You know, it's not someone being like, I like that idea, but like not right for this month. Um, you know, yeah and where you're like, ah, whatever, cool. But it's like, this is my life's work. Could you elaborate beyond good?
00:35:29
Speaker
Yes. Especially when you requested the full manuscript, we had multiple backs and back and forths because she would say like, Hey, are you still looking for an agent for this? If so, like, I'm going to read it this week and things like that, that kind of, we had touch points throughout the year. So to get that it's good. Well, I'm i'm grateful for anything. i I thought I was never going to hear from this woman again. Um, but I don't know. As someone who were mentioning when you worked at Headspace, you would get inbound pitches. Did you give feedback? I mean I feel like we're in an era now of just either ghosting or a whole like nothing burger of of a rejection which doesn't feel like I never expected
00:36:14
Speaker
I don't expect the publishing industry to be a warm and fuzzy place, but I think that it starts with us lifting each other
Navigating the Publishing Industry
00:36:21
Speaker
up. And you mentioned, you know, even with your sub-stack audience and the people that you're reading, I feel like when I talk to other writers, we're all very supportive of one another and we try and lift each other up. But then we hit this publishing wall where it's like, I don't know how many times you have to like hit the ceiling before it finally cracks open for you. But this, this is a,
00:36:43
Speaker
disheartening to say the least. Yeah. When I was at Headspace, I did give feedback, and it was based on a few things. One, they had to be close. They had to be close to getting the pitch right, to getting the tone right. It didn't matter if they were published or not. I liked working with new emerging writers. I liked like helping to shape something, but they needed to be close.
00:37:11
Speaker
The email obviously needed to be like well formatted. It needed to be clear that they had googled how to do this before doing it and then applied what they learned. And when someone had something that I liked and I didn't think it was right for us, I would suggest other places for them to pitch it.
00:37:32
Speaker
you know And I would be like, I don't know those editors. Don't ask me to connect you. I have no idea. But I'm just telling you that like I do think this piece is legs. It's just not right for us. But I didn't have to read full-length books. I was reading 300-word blurbs, 700-word articles, 100-word pitches, ah you know where it's like, you can kind of like get the idea. And it's faster. It moves really fast.
00:38:02
Speaker
And I also had canned responses for the ones that wouldn't work. So i would you know i'd I would read every pitch, but then it was like, I didn't have to do the labor of being like, this is wrong for us. I could just copy and paste one of the responses that I felt was appropriate. And that gave me time to spend helping those other people. I know agents don't have the time to do that. And sometimes I think with querying, from what I've heard, it's very like,
00:38:30
Speaker
It just wasn't a match. Like, it's like when you go on a date with someone and they're like, yeah, you were funny and I had a really good time and it was cool hanging out with you and you're attractive and blah, blah, blah, but it's just not there. And then, you know, a lot of people are when that happens, they're like, but why? Why? And it's like, you gotta let that go, man. It's just something to be either. I know. I know. It's easier said than done though, right?
00:38:56
Speaker
So if I got that better right now, I would be i got i would be on like a multi-day backpacking trip pounding my feet into the ground crying. I would be so weakened. ah You have so much fortitude and strength that I have yet to develop. Man, you know, it's funny.
00:39:14
Speaker
I got fed an article in my feed that was something about like, I think it was a vice article, breadcrumbing, the relationship red flag that we've all experienced. And like, this one breadcrumbed me for a year. Yeah, it's fine. You know, I, I'm, I totally agree with you. It's,
00:39:34
Speaker
they need to fall in love, right? They need to fall in love. I want to fall in love with them. And that is something that's going to take some time. And maybe I just need to like zhuzh up a little bit. I got to take my query home and look at the wardrobe and maybe wear it there for now the next time. I don't know. I'm going to want to let this metaphor die. But I think that in terms of what I'm thinking about for next steps for publishing, it's really about how can I rework this query and make the novel work, maybe like one more go at it. And then if that doesn't work, I'm going to go the self published route and maybe you'll find it on a blog or on Wattpad.
00:40:16
Speaker
You know, um because he did that way I do think we should acknowledge it like that is publishing your work. um And there's going to be a lot of people who don't take that seriously. But if your work is great, and it resonates with people,
00:40:31
Speaker
it that you do have to have the flame of luck, but it can still succeed. Yeah. And if it's good, you can build an audience around it. It seemed there are stories of authors who published their work themselves. And it did so well that it then got picked up by traditional publishing routes. And so I am encouraged by that because although, of course, we talked about this, of course, I want to have an agent, and I want the agent to pitch me to the top publishers. I want there to be a bidding war, because of course I wanna, what this huge signing, multi-book signing deal, but that just might not be in the cards for me. It might not be accessible to me because I don't have an MFA or whatever it may be, and the writing just has to be good enough. And I think it just goes back to
Alternative Writing Education and Future Goals
00:41:20
Speaker
focusing on the writing and figuring out what that path looks like um and making it work for yourself, because if it's something you really want,
00:41:28
Speaker
you You don't let it die. As long as you're practicing writing, you you can get better. I don't want to sound hokey. I sound hokey. I can't help it. I'm a whole field of corn.
00:41:41
Speaker
but and You know, it's like you can follow a lot of paths. I am also envious of the MFA people. I'm like, congratulations that you got in, found a way to afford it, whether it's a scholarship or just finances, ah want to live in the places that host them, have the ability to do so and get to meet all those people. Like I am jealous for sure.
00:42:04
Speaker
I'm sure there's a program in Colorado, but I do think that for people who are looking, I think classes are immensely helpful. I've taken a lot. I i think I've taken like eight or nine classes at UCLA Extension. The instructors there are fantastic and now everything's online. So it doesn't matter where you live, you can take these classes. Like I said, I'm taking a class through Harvard Extension. You know, the professors are in Boston, but I can take it here in Los Angeles. So I feel like if that is, it and they're expensive, but they're not, especially UCLA extension, they're not so incredibly out of reach for a lot of people. If you save up, I think.
00:42:43
Speaker
I haven't checked in recent years, but when I was taking classes at UCLA extension, I think they were like seven or $800. Yeah. That's exactly. It was $700 when I took it and I just knew I wanted to take the class. I set it aside as I worked toward the next semester. And, uh, yeah, I took it and i I really enjoyed it. Um, I think we should have a whole episode on writing education. Cause I think you can get it in a lot of different ways and a lot of different places and you can also self-inflict it.
00:43:13
Speaker
Uh, so, uh, we'll come back to that, but I think we should, we should talk about what our goals are for the week ahead. Obviously it's published both of our books, right? Yeah. Like tomorrow. Why don't you go first? Because I have to think of mine.
00:43:33
Speaker
I mean, lucky me, my goal's not changing. um I am still going for 2,500 words this week. I was reading um Oliver Berkman's newsletter, I believe it's called The Imperfectionist, and he was talking about goal setting in his last post. I can't remember the type of goal setting it was called, but there was, it's basically like your outlandish goal, ah a sort of reach goal, and like a,
00:44:02
Speaker
Pathetic goal if you will like my pathetic goal this week would be like 300 words. I think my reach goal is 2,000 words and My like, oh, holy shit. We knocked it out of the park is 5,000 words um and so for me it's you know, I know that the word count is not an ideal way to do it, but it is one way to do it for me, and it does force my hand. Because I get so caught up in the details, being able to leave details behind and just get some story structure down is my goal. So I'm standing by it. I like it. I like it. Have you thought about it now? or What is your goal? Yeah, I have thought about it. so
00:44:55
Speaker
i I was vacillating on whether or not I was going to take another class in the Harvard Extension program, and I was on the wait list for a pro seminar, and I was like, ah I'll just join the wait list. And then if I get in, I'll get in and I'll take the class. And some of my classmates were talking about the teacher or the professor and how great she was. I was like, okay, well, I'll learn something from this. I wrote the short story that I wrote in the last class. It was inspirational to me. If this teacher is good, great, then I'll learn something from her, but it's going to be a lot of work. It's two, almost two and a half hours twice a week of just class. That doesn't include homework. So I am adding some more hours to my
00:45:38
Speaker
Um, or taking some hours away that I would typically spend writing. So I think what I want to do, and apologies, my, my dog is probably getting really angry at the mailman or the water delivery man or whoever is walking past the front door. But, um, I men period. like So I think I'm going to go back to the Amy Bender rule, which is I want to spend two hours every day.
00:46:04
Speaker
in front of my work and I want to try and write as much as I can or work as much as I can on the novel for two hours every single day. My kids go to school so I do have time that I can carve out in the middle of the day when they don't when I'm not going to be distracted by them and they don't need my attention for anything. Which by the way I got to go to the ER this week because my daughter had not pooped in multiple days. He took her x-ray she's like she's really she was and is like tmi but she was having like Sharp stomach pains and my mother-in-law just had an emergency appendectomy. So we we're like, okay, well, we're going to the ER. We don't need to do another one of those. And the doctor was like, she just, she's really full in there. So that was fun. So that is my goal is sitting down in front of my computer for two hours every single day at minimum.
00:47:02
Speaker
I'm getting as much of the work done in my novel as possible. Nice. I love it. All right. Well, right until we get published, thanks for joining us on Pen Pals, where we navigate the highs and lows and plot holes of being a writer. um Like all artists, we love for our work to not just disappear into the ether. So you know what to do on a podcast. Subscribe, like, comment, share, tell people, blah, blah, blah.
00:47:28
Speaker
And if you've got a story or a struggle you want us to tackle, you can drop us a line. Chris Aaron, where can anybody email us? We have an email. It is a official pen pals pod at gmail dot.com. Until next week. Good luck. Good writing. Goodbye.