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Slump City: Population You (And Every Other Writer)
140 Plays24 days ago
In this candid conversation, Kelton and Krisserin explore the inevitable writing slumps that all creators face. They share their personal experiences with creative blocks—from Kelton's newsletter struggles to Krisserin's post-querying paralysis—and offer practical strategies for pushing through. The hosts discuss how deadlines, accountability partners, and reconnecting with what you love about your work can reignite your creative spark. Plus, Krisserin takes us behind the scenes at the AWP conference in Los Angeles, where she found unexpected encouragement among thousands of aspiring writers. Whether you're feeling like your creative fire has dimmed to embers or you're stockpiling matches for the inevitable dark days ahead, this episode serves up the unfiltered truth about creative dry spells with a side of practical hope. As Kelton and Krisserin remind us—sometimes the best writing happens when you're feeling your way through the dark, one word at a time.
Get in contact with us at: officialpenpalspod@gmail.com
Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Pen Pals' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
And today we are talking about slumps.
00:00:04
Speaker
Everybody has them. Slumps. I'm sorry, but every time you say slump, I'm thinking of that Fergie song, you know? The lady lumps? My lovely lady slumps.
00:00:15
Speaker
yeah My lovely writer slumps. I'm Chris-Aren Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels. From first drafts to query letters. Through inevitable rejection. And hopefully eventual success. From California Colorado.
Balancing Writing and Parenting
00:00:31
Speaker
This is Pen Pals. Hi Chris-Aren. Hi Kelton. I hear, i hear a cat. I have a cat in my lap purring so happy that the baby is out of the house.
00:00:45
Speaker
How's that going? Oh, you know, having a baby. He's 10 months. um And we took him to California coast for whirlwind road trip.
00:00:58
Speaker
And he slept through the night every night on the trip. And we were like, oh, my God, that phase is over. What a dream. And then we got back home. And he was like, I'm not going to sleep until midnight. And I'm going to have the worst gas I've ever had.
00:01:15
Speaker
No one sleeps. And so that's been the last couple nights. It sounds like you and Ben just need to go on the road. I mean, it sounds like we need to get to a lower elevation. I'm sort of convinced that this is the altitudes, as they call it.
00:01:32
Speaker
They call it that for adults, not for babies, but he slept so well at lower elevations and then we got back up here and it was like his guts were just messed up. Poor baby. That's gotta be so uncomfortable for him.
00:01:45
Speaker
I know. it it obviously is the poor thing, but we're stuck here, we're just gonna deal with it. You and I haven't talked in a couple weeks, so we haven't checked in on each other's goals in a while. And I don't know about you, but it made a big difference, like a bad difference for me personally.
00:02:10
Speaker
I was on the road, so I knew that I wasn't going to be working on the novel. But the first week when we did establish goals but didn't meet about them. I did hit them.
00:02:21
Speaker
As you recall, I sent you my novel synopsis that you had me write, and that was a great exercise. I really enjoyed doing that, especially because I hate writing, um, oh, what do you call it when it's just one sentence?
00:02:38
Speaker
A logline? Yeah, I guess a logline. Um, but having a full page of the novel, I felt like I could really explain myself, and I enjoyed that. Which is why I'm writing a novel.
00:02:51
Speaker
It was incredible. And I got so excited reading it for you, for me, because I get to read your book when you're done with it. But i I truly feel like you have a very clear handle of your concept. And my hope was that it would help crystallize some of these bigger plot things that you were turning over in your head. So I'm glad it
Story Structure Challenges
00:03:11
Speaker
was helpful. How about the second week? So that in the totality of the two weeks that we didn't meet, how do you feel about the writing that you got done or didn't get done?
00:03:19
Speaker
and I think it's unrealistic to imagine I would have done anything on a road trip with a baby. i didn't even think about it. And so having that kind of break from it, I think is also useful in its own way. So i'm i'm happy.
00:03:33
Speaker
I'm happy. And you also went to a big writers conference that you had to prepare for emotionally and as a writer. So i think you had an excuse to not do as much work as you may have wanted. But tell me, did you hit your goals?
00:03:49
Speaker
Edit chapters two and three, I think was the main goal. Yes, I hit that and then surpassed it. I got a lot of editing done and I still found time to distract myself with structural questions that I'm still turning over in my head. But ultimately, I am just plowing through revisions and edits and trying to come up with what I think this novel should feel like in its whole form. And it is keeping me back a little bit. I am working through different chapters and and writing a little bit here and there and coming up with ideas of how I want the story to unfold. But one thing that I did do was, i if you recall, I created an Excel spreadsheet
00:04:34
Speaker
And I put all my scenes in there. And I put all the word counts in there, too. And i have structured my novel and into, like, three parts of phases of the main character's life.
00:04:48
Speaker
And I realized that 47% of the novel is in the first part of the book. Interesting. feel like that's probably not good.
00:04:59
Speaker
It should... it happen
00:05:03
Speaker
You know, it's, there's a lot of literature out there, you know, like in a play, the first act is a certain length and the second act is shorter. There's, there's established structures of how things are meant to be done. And I'm a little bit of a sucker of form that lends itself to storytelling. And so I do want it to feel like,
00:05:28
Speaker
feel a certain way when you're reading it. Like, I don't want the first part to just drag on and then the second two parts to be bam, bam. I'm trying not to get myself too distracted by all of that stuff. But, ah you know, ultimately, i'm I'm working through it. I definitely slept in a couple of nights. My sleep has been not great.
Impact of Social Media on Writers
00:05:46
Speaker
I've been waking up in the middle of the night, just out of nowhere, at like two or three o'clock in the morning. And then I will go back to sleep. But, um... I don't know, I have a Garmin watch. And I think you do too, right? I track my sleep and then wake up and look at my sleep score.
00:06:03
Speaker
And it would be like non restorative. You need nine hours tonight to catch up and so It's been days of poor sleep. And then i had AWP this week and it's my, it was my daughter's birthday yesterday. we have a birthday party today. So, you know Thursday i woke up and got the kids ready for school, drove to downtown Los Angeles, spent all day there until I think I went home at like seven o'clock from like 10 to seven.
00:06:35
Speaker
i came back. I had to go to the dollar store and buy balloons and decorations. I came home and I wrapped all my daughter's presents. I like to decorate the house so that when they wake up in the morning, there's like a celebration of in the in the room, you know? And so I went to bed pretty i went to bed pretty late on Thursday evening. And then I had to get up super early and do it all over again on Friday.
00:07:00
Speaker
And I, I was driving home on Thursday, like death grip on the steering wheel in Los Angeles traffic, trying to not fall asleep at the wheel.
00:07:11
Speaker
And then yesterday my phone was dying and my phone bank wasn't working. So I went to my car to charge my phone. And as I was sitting there, ah closed my eyes and was like, no, I'm going home.
00:07:23
Speaker
I can't stay here anymore. And had two more panels that I wanted to go to. And I was like, I just need to know myself and call it, call it quits. So AWP ended a little bit early for me, but I'm real, I can't wait to talk about AWP with you because it was quite the adventure.
00:07:40
Speaker
Oh, I'm excited to hear about it. um Before we get into that, we talked about distractions a little
Supporting Writers Ethically
00:07:45
Speaker
bit. What was that, a couple episodes ago? And I told you about how distracting social media has been for me since we've all launched the podcast.
00:07:55
Speaker
And we've had now one clip of the podcast go... somewhat viral on TikTok. Baby be viral. Baby viral, which I'm totally okay with. I don't know if I could handle more than this.
00:08:09
Speaker
I don't know how you do it. um But that same clip is now going baby viral on Instagram. so Wow, we're speaking to the people.
00:08:20
Speaker
Well, you're speaking to the people. Everyone either loves or loathes your advice on purchasing books. you're kind of your Not your advice, because you're not telling people how to spend their money, but they have an opinion, lots of opinions. There are a lot of great ideas out there about...
00:08:36
Speaker
buying books and donating them to your library or requesting them from the library or not buying books of problematic authors. And if you want to read them, go get them from a second hand bookstore. But there was a question that's been asked a couple of times that I wanted to pose to you for a follow up, which is how do you know a writer is rich?
00:08:58
Speaker
Oh, I think that's a dumb question. Well, people are asking it, so they want clarification. i Well, I think that you can just look them up. Just look them up.
00:09:09
Speaker
ah Look, ah not everybody's net worth on the internet accurate, but they're they're vaguely accurate. It's like, is John Grisham rich? Yeah. Is J.K. Rowling rich?
00:09:21
Speaker
Yes. Like, ah there's it's there's some obvious answers. I think that you can interpret the gray zone in the middle how you like. i ah Listen, obviously you know that I have been exposed to the internet long enough to have people be like, you're wrong.
00:09:38
Speaker
But those are my rules and they're flimsy. You know, and it's like sometimes when a writer is rich and I really love them, I'll still buy the book.
00:09:50
Speaker
I've chosen not to really look at the comments on this piece, because like you said, i wasn't telling people what to do. i was saying what I do. And obviously a lot of writers, it takes a long time. Like you would have assumed right out of the eat, pray, love,
00:10:06
Speaker
marketing launch that Liz Gilbert was rich. And she would have been like, I still had a job. like Clearly I'm not rich. And then someone else would have been like, well, I have five jobs. So having one job is a luxury. You are rich and you're just not paying attention.
00:10:23
Speaker
And then someone else would have been like, you have five jobs. I can't get one. You should be grateful for what you have. And then someone else would have been like, I'm locked in a chest at the bottom of the ocean, cursed by an ancient sea witch.
00:10:35
Speaker
You're on land. You should be grateful for what you have. ah And it's like, yes, we get it. We get it. So I think it's like, you know, buy the book if you can. And we want to support them.
00:10:47
Speaker
Period. That's it. yeah I can't with you. I'm with the ocean.
00:10:55
Speaker
I mean, the way that I interpreted it was pretty much how you mentioned. I was thinking like, Rebecca Yaros doesn't need your money. And also, she's kind of awful. And also, those books aren't great. And then like, same for Sarah J. Moss. I think you can use your own judgment.
00:11:10
Speaker
But, you know, there are other authors that um are have won awards and... have tons of books out in the world, like Sabah Tahir, for example. But i'm I'm obsessed with her and I will buy every and pre-order every book that she publishes because I think she's an incredible writer and ah an incredible, from what I can tell on the outside, seems to be an incredible human being.
00:11:29
Speaker
um so it's just really about using your best judgment. And I do think that there is something about, you know, writers of color and supporting people are underrepresented voices and people who don't get to get their books published so much out there in the world. But I just thought we could do a fun little follow up from that
Conference Experiences and Inspirations
00:11:44
Speaker
clip. Yeah, maybe a good rule of thumb is, do they have TV or movie rights?
00:11:49
Speaker
That's what I said, but then someone was like, in Germany, even if they have TV rights, they're not rich. Okay, I can't. But that's what that's how I responded. I was like, if there's like a TV show or a movie, I think it's safe to assume that you can get their book from the library. Talking on the internet is like engaging with a toddler.
00:12:06
Speaker
But why? But why? But what about this? But what about this? But what about this? It's just like, well, what about you go to your room? entertain yourself. You don't need to look at this content.
00:12:17
Speaker
Oh, man. I mean, I tried to... You're a stronger person than me because I definitely read all the comments. And oh my God, there's this horrible comment on the post where I'm... Did you see this on TikTok? The post about where I was talking about my boss telling me to be humble.
00:12:35
Speaker
Well, some, I'm sure man, some like incel commented on it like she seems like she could use a dose of humility. she's She's probably been put in her place a couple times or something. And I'm like...
00:12:50
Speaker
It's funny because those are also like contrasting comments, but like, wow. Yeah. What a place. What a way to just drive right by the point of that entire flip, but whatever.
00:13:02
Speaker
So um that's been fun. But yeah, I had a great time at AWP. It was exhausting. Remind the people in case they're new what AWP is.
00:13:12
Speaker
AWP, I believe, stands for the Association of Writers and Poets. And every year, They have a big conference that is is very similar to any other kind of convention or conference, if you've ever been to one, where they have a big open floor exhibit.
00:13:29
Speaker
And at EWP, they call this the book fair. And then they have panels that you can attend on various topics. It was Wednesday through Saturday, the the last week of March of this year.
00:13:44
Speaker
Every year, they have it in a different city. So I believe last year was in Kansas City, Missouri. <unk>i or Kansas City, Kansas, one of them, one of the Kansas cities. And i think it was Kansas. And then this year it's in LA. And it's since I've become a writer, i don't think it's ever been in Los Angeles or ive I hadn't known about it. And so I felt very compelled to go because it was in my backyard. And um yeah, I was going up the escalator and looking at the line of people to get in. And there had to have been thousands of people at this conference.
00:14:15
Speaker
And at the beginning of the conference, I felt like this little ant. like And I was like, everyone is here because they want to publish a book, what chance do I have if we're all here to do the same thing? Right.
00:14:33
Speaker
But then by the end of it, walking through the book fair, seeing how many people had published either through traditional publishing means or through indie publishers or self publishing.
00:14:45
Speaker
and I, talked to so many people. I interviewed people on the floor, so I'm hoping to make that into an episode of the pod because I think it would turn out really well. And I had such a great time talking to people.
00:14:58
Speaker
i left encouraged because it feels like there are so many more paths to a writing career that are outside the ones that feel so insurmountable and exclusionary. And I felt like there is a way, there is a way forward for everybody. And I felt really
Overcoming Writing Slumps
00:15:17
Speaker
encouraged. And, um you know, I also got to meet someone in the, someone came up to me and was like, I listened to your podcast.
00:15:27
Speaker
And i almost started sobbing. I almost started crying on the spot. So, um, Shout out to Jessica Castillo, if you're listening. You made my entire month and it was my daughter's birthday yesterday.
00:15:40
Speaker
It was the highlight that day. That is My sister says something about me, but it was great. It was fantastic. And um i got I went to a panel on the Filipino diaspora, which was incredible. And there was a writer there, Kim Garza.
00:15:58
Speaker
and she is mexican and filipino like me nice and i was so excited when i was like i'm so excited that you exist in this world and there are more mexipinos out there and it's so cool um because there's so many mixed race filipinos and we're everywhere in the world and i thought it was incredible and then i went to a panel on the other california and people who live outside of los angeles and san francisco and the stories they get to tell So there panelists from Riverside and Fresno, and they were talking. it was the most California panel ever.
00:16:31
Speaker
They spent so much time talking about freeways. It was like an episode of SNL. I looked at my, I was there with a friend of mine, Amanda Fletcher, who's incredible. And I was like, of course the California panel.
00:16:45
Speaker
would We'd be spending a half an hour talking about what freeways we live off of in the history of the highways and stuff. It's crazy. That's really beautiful. Yeah. And then I went to a panel on Friday morning that was about debuting as a novelist, which I thought was really interesting. And a friend and who I had the Penn Center Emerging Voices Fellowship with was on that panel. So I bought her book and I got her to sign it for me and it was great. And then I took a two and a half hour nap when I got home.
00:17:13
Speaker
so Incredible. Refill that battery. Yeah. Yeah, and i I didn't put my watch on, so i didn't get credit for it. But whatever. I'm here now. um i got six hours and 45 minutes to sleep last night.
00:17:26
Speaker
And it's my daughter's birthday party today. But I'm i'm so excited we're checking in. Because for me, ah the waking up in the morning was harder, knowing that we weren't going to chat. And so I was getting work done. But um because the sleep was was suffering, i did sleep in a couple days, which I think is OK. But I definitely...
00:17:46
Speaker
I think my weekly touch ins with you are probably one of the most productive things I've done for my writing. And I'm not just saying that because we're recording it for the podcast, but knowing that I'm going to talk to you about it, it is almost something that like gets me up in the morning. So I missed our little, I missed our accountability check ins. And I know you are busy driving around the West Coast, but I'm so glad we get to talk today.
00:18:12
Speaker
Me too. And I think this is also apt for what we are talking about today. Today we are talking about slumps.
00:18:23
Speaker
Everybody has them slumps. I feel like I'm in a bit of a slump right now, not with the novel per se, but with the newsletter. I'm not feeling jazzed about anything I've been writing recently.
00:18:37
Speaker
I don't know what I'm going to write today for the newsletter that goes out tomorrow. I felt really good about a few topics in January and then February and March kind of just plodded along.
00:18:49
Speaker
And like looking at the season ahead, i'm I'm really wishing I had built in some time off for myself. But I just don't feel like I've earned it yet.
00:19:03
Speaker
wo Do you feel like you have to earn rest?
00:19:10
Speaker
I'm a Capricorn. Of course I have to earn it.
Reader Feedback and Writing Quality
00:19:14
Speaker
But yes, no, I i do. i I also feel like I need a couple bangers before i can take it.
00:19:22
Speaker
Like, I need to remind people why they subscribe. Okay. That I see a look of... Utter disbelief and disapproval on your face.
00:19:33
Speaker
But let's talk about I'm in the slump. And maybe we will come back to the notion of taking time off. But I'm in the slump right now. How often are you in a slump with your writing? What do you what would you say is a slump?
00:19:46
Speaker
How long does the writing have to feel off to categorize it as a slump? I'm sorry, but every time you say slump, I'm thinking of that Fergie song. and ah Lady lumps?
00:19:59
Speaker
My lovely lady slumps. yeah know my love that My lovely writer slumps. Why is slump such a funny word? oh man. Um...
00:20:12
Speaker
I feel like I go through slumps on a weekly, you know? like i feel like I feel like I'm constantly fighting against a ah pulling back of not feeling super encouraged about my work and feeling like it's work instead of, um you use the term Sisyphean a lot. Sometimes it feels that way. Like I'm just constantly trying to get through a draft and I'm just staring.
00:20:42
Speaker
Sometimes I'll just stare at a scene and I know that I need to write more out of it and I know what I need to write and I just don't even want to do it. Yeah, sometimes it feels like paddling up river.
00:20:54
Speaker
You know, some days the river is wide and quiet and you can paddle up river and and you don't notice the resistance until you go the other way. And then other days, it's just like you see a wall of rapids and you're like, how?
00:21:08
Speaker
You can't paddle up that. And then you're just like trying to get to the shore and it's ah it's a nightmare. I was in a big slump after i went through that whole querying process. I did not know what to do with myself.
00:21:21
Speaker
I think external forces for me really contribute to slumps. If I'm in the work and I'm zoned in and I'm really just focusing on the page and what I need to do and putting one foot in front of the other and I have a very clear idea of what that path looks like, then I'm okay.
00:21:39
Speaker
But if there is a fork in the road, i don't know what to do. Or like we were talking about with structure, if I'm if i'm unsure how to move forward, then a fear of making the wrong decision will put me into a slump and I'll just, you know,
00:21:55
Speaker
sit in it for a while before I can figure out how to move forward. And that can be really stifling to the creative process. And to the same point that you made last week or two or three weeks ago about imposter syndrome, the best thing that you can do is just keep moving forward and maybe change tack and say like, okay, I'm stuck here.
00:22:15
Speaker
So maybe I need to focus on this instead. And for me with the book right now, some of that is like, okay, this scene I'm just going to put over here. And then I'm just going to focus on this right now. And that's been a little bit ah more achievable for me.
00:22:31
Speaker
But what about you? You're you're in a slump now. How often does that happen for you? i would say every two to three months I get in like a real big slump. You know, there's definitely weeks where I'm like, oh God, i don't know what I'm going to write. And that for me, not knowing is not a slump.
00:22:48
Speaker
A slump for me is when I feel like my output is bad. And so right now I'm like, none of this is good. All of this is trash. I don't want to send anything.
00:23:00
Speaker
then my darling husband is quick to point out to me that when I send a newsletter that I'm like, it's trash. Oftentimes my readers love it.
00:23:12
Speaker
And I think that that is because I sort of, I'm like flushing out the pipes of writing and I'm feeling really free about it. And I'm like, it's bad.
00:23:23
Speaker
So I just let it be bad. And I think that that freedom in form sometimes comes across as a, like ranting or laissez faire. And those are things that people like to read.
00:23:36
Speaker
So sometimes it works out in my favor and other times I'll open it, you know, and it'll be like a fraction of the normal amount of people will like it and I will take it personally. And then I slump further.
00:23:49
Speaker
So it's like same external forces. Substack changed some of their dashboard layout elements. And so now when I open my dashboard to work on a draft or to schedule a post,
00:24:00
Speaker
It just says right up front, views, subscribers, unfollows, paid subscribers. It's like all these numbers. I don't want to know. I don't want to see them.
00:24:10
Speaker
I wish there was some sort of writer dashboard where it's just like, don't show me because I don't want to do that. But obviously, Substack needs you to care about your numbers because that's how they make money.
00:24:21
Speaker
But don't. I try not to look at those because then I get, i get in my head and subscribers kindly have been like, you know, sometimes I love a piece and I just don't click the like button.
00:24:33
Speaker
Like I got to move on with my day. It's not because the piece sucked. And I'm like, yeah, but when 50% of you do that, it's because the piece sucked. So, you know, I've been getting in my head.
00:24:45
Speaker
um and I know that today when I finish talking to you that I will have to sit down and write a newsletter in the midst of a slump. And that is when I think having a deadline is a real deadline.
00:25:00
Speaker
not i do i Look, self-inflicted deadlines don't work for me. If I'm like, I'm going to do this by Tuesday and there's nothing on the other end of that Tuesday, i'm not going to do it.
00:25:11
Speaker
But when I have people paying to read my writing and they're expecting it at 8 a.m. m on a Sunday in Mountain Time, then I'm like, I have to. And so that drags me upriver.
00:25:24
Speaker
That is essentially the motor on the back of my boat where I'm like, we're going one way or another. and that's, that's where I am today. Nesting in the slump of my boat, cranking on the motor.
00:25:41
Speaker
For me, a slump means I'm not writing at all. But it sounds like for you, slump means you're writing, you're just not writing how you want to write or at the level that you want to write to. Interesting.
00:25:54
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I guess what we know works for you is next time you feel like you're in a slump, then you and I need to agree on a deadline and I will hold you to it.
00:26:06
Speaker
think that's great advice for people. You know, if you're in a slump and just say, find a friend who you trust to call you on your bullshit and tell them, hey, I'm going to be sending you something on this date and you need to be on my ass for it. i think that's great advice.
00:26:24
Speaker
And know what works for you. Like for me, honestly, I would need you to be like, if you don't do this, you have to Venmo me $20.
00:26:34
Speaker
That to me would actually get me to do it. You know, and it's like, that you know, having a bet with your friend over 20 bucks, it's like you can at the end of that be like, I actually can't give you this $20, I'm broke. But um it it does incentivize me in a way that, you know, just your expectations of me dealt. I wish that it wasn't like that, but I need to suffer real consequences.
00:26:57
Speaker
um And if you love me, which I know that you do, there aren't real consequences. You will just accept me into your loving embrace and be like, maybe next time. And I'll be like, say what deadline?
00:27:12
Speaker
That is not true. I and i am actually...
00:27:19
Speaker
yeah So I think that um I try and be very supportive and parental parent-y, but I'm also the like the mean one in my parenting household. That's not true. Boyan yells a lot, but that's a story for a different day. He's Eastern European, okay? It's normal. Everyone is very loud. It just is what it is.
00:27:39
Speaker
um But i think for me, it would be more like, how are we going to make sure that this doesn't happen? That's how I approach things. I'm this way at work also. Like, i actually really hate fixating on Like, whose fault is it?
00:27:55
Speaker
Why did this happen? think people feel bad about mistakes that they've already made or not meeting the goals that they've already tried to to meet and failed, I think is a waste of time and energy.
00:28:07
Speaker
But what I like to do is think through, okay, how can we create a plan and a strategy so that this does not happen again? what What did we learn from this failure so that we can move forward? And I think that that's a better way.
00:28:21
Speaker
and in the spirit of that, What do you think causes your writing slumps? What is it that drives you into that mode of feeling like you're not doing your best work?
00:28:33
Speaker
I think inevitably lack of inspiration is a huge part of it. Usually when the writing is bad, it's because I have nothing to say. When I have something to say, I i inherently like my writing.
00:28:46
Speaker
Sometimes I don't always get the perfect point. Sometimes I know that if I could spend a few more weeks on it, it would be much stronger. but if I'm motivated and inspired to write, I often enjoy what I write.
00:28:59
Speaker
That doesn't always mean that that translates perfectly to the audience loving it, but when I love it, it matters less to me. And I was hopeful that after you know a week on the road, I would feel a little more inspired, but I think I needed some time for that trip to settle into the marrow of my bones before it can turn into something else. i love that you say you like your writing.
00:29:23
Speaker
When you said that, i had a had a little internal reaction because I don't know if I've ever thought that about my own writing. And you know the saying, you have to love yourself before someone else can love you.
00:29:36
Speaker
it's very It's something interesting for me to to turn over and think about a little bit, but I love your writing, so I'm glad that you can also verbalize the like of your writing.
Personal Writing Styles
00:29:47
Speaker
um But you know when we talked about... were we talking about?
00:29:52
Speaker
um It was imposter syndrome and you were saying that other art inspires you. I wonder if there's something that you can do today to kind of pull yourself out of that slump. If there's some reading or visual art that you can look at that could help pull you out of your slump.
00:30:10
Speaker
It's funny you mentioned that because the piece I am going to write today is a little bit about visual art. It's about fashion. and how much I miss it in my life. And I found an old t-shirt in the bottom of my closet the other day that is a fitted t-shirt. So I couldn't wear it all pregnancy or most of postpartum. And I put it on and it fit again. And I was like, she's back.
00:30:33
Speaker
But then i was just, I looked at my closet and knew and was like, I don't identify with these pieces. So I am It's funny, I am writing about that. I do wanna rewind real quick on you have to love yourself before someone can love you. I think we both know that's not true.
00:30:50
Speaker
um And you can be very lovable um while having some qualms with yourself. And I think the same goes for your writing. I do think it is interesting to think about, you know, like when you are feeling like I don't love myself, no one's gonna love me. It's like, what do you love about yourself? Cause there's always like something.
00:31:09
Speaker
Like, I love the way I make pour over coffee or like, I love the way I can build a fire real quick. You know, there's like, you got skills in there that you're like, if I dig deep, I can love. And I think you can do that with your writing too.
00:31:20
Speaker
And sometimes it does take someone else pointing that out. A writer whose work I read every day, Sarah Lavender Smith, she writes a substack about running. She pointed out to me something about my writing that I had never noticed myself was that i anthropomorphized everything.
00:31:40
Speaker
The sun, the dirt, you know the road. I was always calling them like she and he and talking about their emotions. And I had never noticed that that was something that that I just constantly did.
00:31:54
Speaker
And she pointed that out to me. And I, at as a compliment, she wasn't like, but wow, you got to really knock this off. Roads don't have feelings. Shh. me instead was like, this is a fun thing that you do. And I have noticed it more and more.
00:32:06
Speaker
and now I have a better relationship with how I do that and when and when and where I embrace it. And also thinking a little bit more intentionally about what I make feminine and what I make masculine.
00:32:19
Speaker
Because previously, I had just done that sort of intuitively. And now I have a bit of a French language inspection on it where I'm like, where am I putting the laws and the laws here?
00:32:30
Speaker
So I would advise, that's actually a fun exercise if you're in a slump. What do you like about your writing? I want to say briefly, first of all, Sarah, amazing reader, what a friend to point that out.
00:32:42
Speaker
um It's I was gonna say, as you were saying, it's very common. and English doesn't gender things, right. um But a lot of other languages do. And in Bulgarian, they actually will refer to things with pronouns, which I don't know if they do that in French. But you know, my mother in law would be like, I'll ask her where she puts something, oh and she'll say like, I put it on her, meaning the table, because table is feminine in Bulgarian. And it's, I don't remember ever very well what is masculine and feminine in Bulgarian. But then also, in Japanese, in Shinto religion, everything has a god.
00:33:25
Speaker
but Everything is a kami. So a big tree or a big rock has a god in it. And a road that is storied would have a god in it. So I feel like maybe you just have this instinctual understanding of the natural world because you live in nature and it lends itself to you looking at these things through a lens of everything having a life and a history and a story.
Managing Multiple Projects and Avoiding Burnout
00:33:51
Speaker
But what a wonderful thing for Sarah to point out. I mean, i like I said before, I'm not going to gush, but I do. I love your writing for its vulnerability. And I feel like your voice is so strong and so honest. And when I think about my own writing and things that I like about my writing, um i think i what I love to do is to look at common things and explain them in ways that people are like, wow, yeah.
00:34:21
Speaker
yeah, like that looks just like that or that smells just like that. I'm trying to always get my readers exactly where I want them in the moment.
00:34:32
Speaker
I use a lot of sensory details, whether it's through a sound or a taste or a texture. um I like looking at things at like a microscopic level and being able to describe them so that people see things the way that they've never seen them before.
00:34:46
Speaker
And I think that that is what I think artists do too. It's really about like, I'm looking at this scene and I'm breaking it down into shapes and colors and shadows that I can reproduce them. I'm seeing them on a cellular level.
00:35:00
Speaker
And that's what I like to do with my writing. And that's what I like. And you are good at that. Your speculative fiction that you had me read. um Sorry, listeners, we'll get over gushing over each other in just a moment.
00:35:11
Speaker
But your speculative fiction that I read was so transportive that it was like it was like being on vacation in L.A. I was just like, I am exactly where I need to be. And i I think that's such a skill set because sometimes I will just sit there and be like,
00:35:27
Speaker
What does this feel like? Like in your hands, you're like, okay, if I crunch it, what is this similar to? And I can get caught up in that. So I, when I see someone do that, well, it is like, oh, nice.
00:35:41
Speaker
Yeah. I just want to take us all back to that time when we were children and we were discovering how things taste and looked and smelled for the first time, you know, that like child's mind. But, um, yeah.
00:35:54
Speaker
Okay, well, I'm glad we love each other's writing. That's why we're here We love each other's writing and we love each other. so we'll move on Talking about, um you know, you mentioned that You are not blocked with the novel.
00:36:12
Speaker
And it's really the newsletter. I don't typically work on multiple projects at once. And I'm wondering, because you do, you have your novel, you have your newsletter, you have your work that you, you know, that pays the bills that you are also writing for.
00:36:29
Speaker
And then you have these other things that you place in publications. So how do you, how do you do that? How do you juggle all of those things? And I know that they're all very different, but I'm wondering how you organize yourself and how you choose when to spend time on what?
00:36:46
Speaker
I have a Google doc that lists all my active projects. Um, and then bulleted underneath them is the action items that have to happen. And then on Monday morning, I just reorganize them in order of what they have to happen.
00:37:02
Speaker
And sometimes with that, I will, there's a world where I'm realistic, where I'm like, all of the things that make money have to happen first. And then there are weeks when I'm like, no no, novel has to happen first this week. It's been at the bottom for too long.
00:37:20
Speaker
You scooch it right up to the top and you work on that first. And in that Google doc under each of the names of the projects and the clients is hyperlinked.
00:37:31
Speaker
the document that I'm working on. Sometimes that documents a one of my clients is a, a healthcare care client and there's a lot of different things I'm working on for them. So that document it links to just goes to another bolded list of linked documents, but I have it really organized. I go through it every Monday morning and, and rethink about like, okay, who am I waiting for feedback from? Who can I email?
00:37:55
Speaker
And the creative work is, is peppered in there. And when I have to jump in into a client from another one, which I often have to do, like ah if I'm working in the constraints of an hour and a half nap, it's like, okay, I know I got to get these four things done now.
00:38:12
Speaker
I think to switch voices, all I do is read two paragraphs of that client. Sometimes that's two paragraphs already wrote for them. Sometimes that's two paragraphs of like their latest thought leadership piece. Sometimes it's two paragraphs of,
00:38:28
Speaker
an essay that I found inspiring that I wanted to write off of for the newsletter. But I have to do a little bit of reading in that voice. Sometimes if my mind is really sluggish, I will read it out loud just to like really turn the gears in my head to change course and get that train onto the right set of tracks.
00:38:49
Speaker
Sometimes that is laborious, especially when you're you're in one of those huge train stations where there's just like 19 sets of tracks and you're like, where are Am I going? So I read two paragraphs of whatever I need to do out loud to switch the voice in my head. Because you're right. It is There are a lot of, i don't know. There's a lot of there's a lot of sticks in the yard. Who knows?
00:39:11
Speaker
Who knows what I'm working on?
00:39:16
Speaker
As you were saying that I was thinking to myself, gosh, Kelton does a lot in a week. You do. You should give yourself credit. You you take care of a baby. I know we're not we're not going to talk about that because we've talked about that, but you do. You could take care of a baby. You're a partner to Ben.
00:39:33
Speaker
You've got cats and a dog to take care of as well. You have your writing that you do for the newsletter, the writing that you do for work, and then you're trying to write a novel. It's a lot.
00:39:45
Speaker
And i co-host a podcast. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.
00:39:50
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think that I am overwhelmed right now. i'm not going to lie. I am burnt out, overwhelmed, very, very, very tired. But I also just, I don't know. I feel like i'm working on the things I need to be working on.
00:40:04
Speaker
And I'm willing to drive myself into the ground. I will tell you another slump thing I do is I read tarot. I pull tarot cards for myself.
00:40:16
Speaker
When you put it on the line, I don't believe in woo-woo stuff. But I will let myself be gently guided by it. I think that tarot...
00:40:28
Speaker
is just a way to get at what you really believe and what you really want and what you're really afraid of. And that if you're open to investigating those things, the cards will guide you there.
00:40:41
Speaker
It's sort of like, ah you know, a lot of people go to church and a sermon will really strike them. And then some weeks it won't. And that it's like, you know, it's like you you take home what works for you and you're like, okay, that one was for me.
00:40:55
Speaker
And so when I'm feeling a slump, as I was this morning, I made my baby pull two tarot cards. Normally, my system is that I have one of the cats bless the deck by rubbing their face on the side of it. They're always willing to headbutt the deck. And I was like, why don't we see what Woods thinks this morning?
00:41:13
Speaker
And... the two cards he pulled were the Ace of Cups and the Ten of Wands. And the the Ace of Cups is sort of like a symbol for your let the love flow over you.
00:41:28
Speaker
Like be open to it, be open to opportunity and creativity and like you are the love and just have have a little faith. And then that these are my interpretations. And then the Ten of Wands is like you are carrying this giant bundle of sticks and you are slumped over and it doesn't look like the end is in sight. And it's just like the back of you and you have bad posture and you're like miserable.
00:41:55
Speaker
and but the card itself, like a 10 card means the cycle is almost over. And so for me looking at this card, it was like, I am burdened. i am stressed. I am putting so much work into so many different projects, but the end is near.
00:42:10
Speaker
And I just need to I mean, the card is sort of like you need to rest, but I'm like, I just need to power through. But looking at the card, I was like, it's exactly how I feel. And like having the child pull them, it was like the love and the effort as a pairing. And I was like, okay, I feel restored. I feel connected to myself reading these cards. I feel like I can i can do the work. I can get it done.
00:42:37
Speaker
And so tarot does that for me. ah can't do that for everybody. And like, there' there're you know there's a little uphill on reading tarot and understanding how to do it. But when I am in a slump, I turn to the guards.
00:42:50
Speaker
I love how Wood's pulled those for you. you know he did want he did want to pull a lot more he was like sure the deck and i was like so many things to say
00:43:04
Speaker
oh man i'm with you i'm the same way where i can usually power through something if i can see the end if i know that it's just a little bit longer i just got to get on top of that the next hill and then i can move on and move out of this period of intense laborious effort.
00:43:21
Speaker
But what are you going to do on the other side of it? What does the ideal look like for you?
00:43:28
Speaker
Oh, you mean being filthy rich? No, not... Kelsey is such a capitalist. Not that. Sure. no I mean like in the near term, right?
00:43:40
Speaker
So you're you're working on all this stuff. You got the novel, and the newsletter, but if you could wave a magic wand for your writing, what would it look like for you?
Setting Realistic Writing Goals
00:43:49
Speaker
In the next six months, we do hope to get the child into some daycare.
00:43:54
Speaker
The goal is to do twice a week, maybe four hours each day. And where I drop him off and then I go straight to the library and I write.
00:44:06
Speaker
And then I pick him up and I go home and I don't i feel accomplished in my goals. It's tough with the writing because I also, I'm looking for one more client to be financially stable.
00:44:18
Speaker
And so i I do have to think about where I am putting that client in and slotting in that work. And with the writing, it's sort of, i don't know. i mean, i' I think the problem is that I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel.
00:44:34
Speaker
Like I'm just in the tunnel and I've got my hands on either side feeling my way through and I can't see the plateau I can't see the light. And so I have to find a way to incentivize myself without that.
00:44:49
Speaker
And I think that, you know, that's a good analogy or metaphor for, I should eventually learn what the difference is for, for raising children, because it's like, yeah, you know, every time you talk to a parent with a different age child, they're like, wait till this happens.
00:45:04
Speaker
but but And you're like, oh God, it's already so bad. and so it's like, I I'm in it and I just have to find a way to work in the dark. And that is what I am trying to do.
00:45:17
Speaker
and it's like Ben was asking me this morning, he was like, you know, are you feeling good about things? Do you feel overwhelmed? Do we need to like revisit some systems? Like, is there something you could let go of? And I was like, right now, i don't want to assess right now. I want to keep plowing through and i will assess when I feel like I have a moment to breathe.
00:45:40
Speaker
I will finish with two clients of mine by like April 10th. And then I will, you know finances drop down, but I'll also have a moment to be like, okay, what am I doing? Where do I want to put my efforts?
00:45:53
Speaker
How do I incentivize more people to subscribe to the newsletter? How do I get more people to listen to the podcast so that we might eventually have sponsors? But that assessment is not right now.
00:46:05
Speaker
And that was kind of what I wanted to ask you. It's like, you talked about when you can see the plateau. You know, that that helps. But what happens when you can't? What about when you're in the dark, when it's you can't see the mountain top, when you're just in the trees and it's going up and up and up and up?
00:46:24
Speaker
Like when you get a slump, you inherit the slump language itself is like you're going down. if You are slumping down. And all of the work we are describing is going up in effort, in success, in in goals.
00:46:39
Speaker
So it's like when you can't see the light, how do you keep searching for it?
00:46:46
Speaker
It's a great question. I think for me, it's exactly how you described it. It's really just putting one foot in front of the other and focusing on the work and just getting lost a little bit in the sentences and trying not to worry about the fact that I'm feeling my way around in the dark and just having faith that if I just keep walking forward, I will eventually find an exit. That has been the thing that has helped me the most.
00:47:19
Speaker
And ah so much of being a writer is putting an effort in work and never knowing if anything is going to come from it, right?
00:47:31
Speaker
that we could do this our entire lives and never find the level of excess that we think we need to be writers. And what I'm trying to come to terms with and what I'm trying to be okay with is the fact that as long as I'm doing the work,
00:47:52
Speaker
As long as I'm writing and creating story and getting better, then I'm okay because I'm doing the work. It's like when you're sitting around and opining on, not you, but when I, when me, when I'm sitting around, when I would sit around and opine about like, oh, I'm never going to get published. Like none of these people want to read my book and I'm,
00:48:19
Speaker
but I'm such a fraud and why am I like spending all my time on this? It's the work that brings me back down to life. You know, it's like getting excited again about your writing and your storytelling that really is the thing that keeps me moving forward and letting go of any external things that are distracting.
00:48:39
Speaker
And that can be either like focusing on editing the work that I'm doing right now. It can be pulling up that spreadsheet and moving deck chairs around on the Titanic and trying to visualize what goes where. Sometimes what's helpful is I would get these like really big, sticky, you know, you can get those like easels and just like trying to visualize things and like draw things and write things and connect things.
00:49:06
Speaker
Getting away from your main mode of writing, whether it's like for me, I'm on my computer, I'm sure for you too, like some people like to handwrite, but like trying a different method to unlock different parts of your brain, all of those things for me help.
00:49:21
Speaker
So to answer your question, it's really just about continuing to try and to not give up because to use your metaphor, if I'm feeling around in the dark and I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel and I don't know how I'm going to get out, I'm not going to lay down on the ground and just die.
00:49:43
Speaker
Not going to do that. I'm going to keep fighting because it's important to me because writing is what makes me happy and, and gives, makes me
Community Support for Writers
00:49:53
Speaker
feel like I have purpose. And it's the legacy that I'm hoping to leave behind for my children.
00:49:59
Speaker
So i just keep fucking doing it. the
00:50:05
Speaker
And I can't recommend enough finding yourself a Chris Aaron and scheduling a call once a week, actually putting it on your calendar and talking about the work.
00:50:16
Speaker
Whether you're a writer or a painter or a runner or whatever, like having someone that gets what you're doing and can inspire you and can motivate you, i it just, it makes an enormous difference.
00:50:32
Speaker
When you have someone in the tunnel to talk to, it is a lot easier to get to the end of the tunnel. I 100% agree.
00:50:43
Speaker
And I think that it also makes it real to have someone in your life who believes that your dreams are real and they're not just something in your head is incredibly validating and it almost gives you permission to keep doing it.
00:51:00
Speaker
And it's so easy to give up on something when you've never voiced it into the universe. And I know it's a scary thing to do. And a lot of, a lot of people in your life, they're not going to be that person for you.
00:51:15
Speaker
yeah But when you have a couple of friends, and this is probably not the same for you, Kelton, because you publish so regularly. And I'm sure people ask you about the sub stack all the time, but I haven't really published that much. And I haven't,
00:51:29
Speaker
been really public about my writing as much as i probably should. The few friends who ask me, how's your book going? How's this going?
00:51:41
Speaker
I'm like, I know these people really loved me. Yeah. You know, when, when your friends ask you about your dreams, those are the people that you should just like really hold on tight to in your life.
00:51:52
Speaker
Because a lot of people like don't give a shit and are probably friends in your life because you shared a moment in time together or like they're just not that deep and that's fine like we we can still have meaningful relationships with those people but the ones who ask you about your art are the ones that you should really care and treasure you know and one of those people if you were to ask them hey could you be my accountability buddy and i need help just remembering to do the work and that someone out there is waiting to read would be really helpful.
00:52:26
Speaker
Ideally, it's another artist and doesn't have to be a writer. But I think if we were to like sign off on this slump topic, ah I love one, what you said about figuring out what it is about your writing that you like, finding out what it is about your writing that you love.
00:52:44
Speaker
yeah And then finding someone to help you through these hard times, I think that is the best advice that but I can give, that we can give.
Exchanging Manuscripts and Accountability
00:52:57
Speaker
Slump over. I'm ready to write something. Slump, I don't know her. All right. Since our slumps are over and we feel great, what are our goals for the week ahead?
00:53:09
Speaker
For me, it's really just putting one foot in front of the other with my editing. Um, I figured out a lot of stuff about this book while doing this revision.
00:53:23
Speaker
And so I'm really trying to get through this draft and I feel like I'm, I'm halfway through now. So I've made good progress. I want to finish revising it.
00:53:35
Speaker
I think that I'm in a place where I'm ready to either get a beta reader or Or potentially join a workshop to start like working on chapters on a more granular level. So I'm thinking about that.
00:53:51
Speaker
Also, i had some conflicting advice recently. I think I mentioned that I worked with an editor for my previous manuscript and I spent a good amount of money revising the last novel that you read.
00:54:05
Speaker
And so I was thinking of doing that again. And I had an idea that I might try a new editor. It's always, i think, interesting to have my teacher, Mark Sarvis, whom I love and respect immensely.
00:54:16
Speaker
has read so much of my writing and knows my style so well that I'm wondering, it would be cool to get another perspective on this story. I've done it once where I got another woman to do like a read through and late edit of my last book and it went atrociously.
00:54:35
Speaker
And so I'm a little gun shy and I asked my professor for some recommendations and I got three different editors and I'm i'm not sure if any of them are right fit. Some of them charge hourly, which I find very strange.
00:54:47
Speaker
cool and yeah And then another one does it by chapter, which I feel is a little bit more on par. My teacher, Mark, does it as like a flat rate, which I think within a certain amount of pages. He's like, it's going this much, but no more than this many pages, which I feel like is fair.
00:55:04
Speaker
yeah But hourly, I'm like, I don't know about that. Anyhow... um You really have a Goldilocks situation with these editors. Yeah, I really do. but then I spoke to a friend of mine who is a literary agent and a publicist and and an editor and a writer herself. And she was like, I don't believe in spending money on editors before you get an agent. And I was like, okay.
00:55:29
Speaker
I think I need the help. So I'm trying to figure out what that looks like. So long winded way of saying I'm feeling like I'm ready to get some eyeballs on my work.
00:55:40
Speaker
And so my goal for the next week is to continue working on revising the novel and then figure out what the next step in terms of of readers will be.
00:55:52
Speaker
So nice. This is exciting. Those are my goals. Yeah. um How about you, Kelton? What are your goals? Yeah. Words. Words. Just lots of words. We're going back to that, huh? Yeah, we're going back to words. um I owe my therapist a word count, so I'm going to deliver.
00:56:10
Speaker
ah You cannot disappoint Donna. I can't disappoint Donna. I love her so much. um I need to crank out some words. i have a feeling what they are.
00:56:20
Speaker
I really hit a rhythm the last time we spoke. After I did the synopsis, I got some really good words. Not a ton. but some good words that felt like my favorite style of my writing.
00:56:32
Speaker
And i I feel like I could read those pages again and just kind of like sail. So that's my intention. And i' I'm not going to tell you how many words because I don't care.
00:56:44
Speaker
don't care how many words. It's just words. And so, but I will, dear listener, I will tell you next episode how many words there were. How are you tracking towards your May 26th goal?
00:56:57
Speaker
Oh, terribly. Are you kidding? Jesus. Sorry. I'm sorry. No, no, no. I think it's worth asking. And I think it's an okay answer. You know, I set a pretty aggressive goal and I knew that going in. I was like, this would be crazy if I could get this done.
00:57:15
Speaker
But I was, I set that goal because I was like, what if, what if crazy comes? What if crazy happens? What if all of a sudden i my life gets way easier for some reason?
00:57:27
Speaker
What if the good ship lollipop arrives in port and is like, guess what? Life's great now. You can finish your novel. And so I, I said that cause I was like, that is the most aggressive possible end date and maybe something awesome will happen.
00:57:43
Speaker
And then if I don't hit it, it's like, okay, well, there are more months in the year, so I'll just use those.
00:57:51
Speaker
I have a proposal. Oh, God. What is it? I think we need to set a date for a book swap. I'll read your book. You read mine.
00:58:03
Speaker
Can I just give you whatever I have? Like, do I have to finish the book for you? Hmm. Like, what if I have, like, you know, 70% of it?
00:58:16
Speaker
Would you want to read it then? Well, I, so here's thing. I think we should give ourselves a generous deadline. Okay. Like sometime close to the summer.
00:58:29
Speaker
That's generous. May 26th is the beginning of summer. I mean, like in June or or something. two weeks later. Jesus.
00:58:43
Speaker
I want end the first season of Pen Pals with us giving each other our books. I think that would feel really good. I think it would feel good. You're absolutely right.
00:58:55
Speaker
What about, I think a realistic deadline for me is before school starts. Okay. And maybe that's when mid August. Yeah. Maybe that's when the next season of pen pal starts is like the handoff of the book. I, I gotta be real with myself based on okay what I've
Podcast Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:59:13
Speaker
seen happen so far. Um, and I can't, the earliest I can get this baby into daycare is June. Okay.
00:59:23
Speaker
And that's the earliest. So, all right. All right. I appreciate your flexibility. Thank you. got to be able to negotiate. Listen, I'm not trying to pressure you into anything that's going to stress you out more. That's not what you need.
00:59:36
Speaker
because i just i just heard you say that you need a deadline. I'm graciously proposing one. i appreciate you. i appreciate you.
00:59:48
Speaker
all right. Well, by next week when we meet... I want you to give me a date, a firm date. We're gonna write it in blood. Oh, God.
00:59:58
Speaker
All right um i'm ah all right. ah so All right. I'm only having the darkest of thoughts right now. So let's sign off while I still have some motivation.
01:00:11
Speaker
Before we do, um when I met Jessica at AWP, she requested that we do a Q&A episode where people send us in questions.
01:00:23
Speaker
And um we answer them. She said she thinks it's like really interesting how, and I do too, how different we are and how we think about things. So this is a call out to all of our listeners that we'd love for you to submit some questions to us.
01:00:40
Speaker
They can be about writing or a process or, you know, you can ask us anything. We'll decide whether or not we want to answer. But we would love to hear your questions. If you want to send us an email, you can also, um you know, DM them to us on Instagram.
01:00:55
Speaker
We're at penpalspod on Instagram and our email is officialpenpalspod at gmail.com. And we will answer them for you. don't be afraid to be silly. Ask me some silly questions. I want to have some fun.
01:01:10
Speaker
Are we not having fun, Kelton?
01:01:13
Speaker
I honestly, i'm having such a good time. All right. Love you, listeners. Make sure that you subscribe, like, and as our wonderful friends have been doing, please recommend it to your friends who are in the throes of a writing slump and otherwise.
01:01:29
Speaker
And we will see you next week. Take care. Happy writing. Happy writing.