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The Outliner vs. The Pantser
164 Plays27 days ago
In this episode, Kelton and Krisserin flip the script on their expected writing styles, revealing that organized Krisserin is actually a passionate pantser while project-manager Kelton has embraced the power of outlining. They candidly dissect how these approaches shape their creative processes—from Krisserin feeling her way through first drafts to Kelton's revelation that structure finally helped her break through long-standing writing blocks. The hosts share how place profoundly inspires their work, whether it's Krisserin's formative desert years or Kelton's deep dives into local cemetery histories. They discuss the essential components of compelling stories, debate the merits of chronological writing versus scene-jumping, and confess their personal writing struggles (tense inconsistencies, anyone?). Along the way, they answer listener questions about creative inspiration and writing crutches while setting ambitious weekly word count goals. Whether you're team outline with color-coded stickies or team follow-your-characters-into-the-unknown, this conversation offers reassurance that there's no single "right way" to bring your stories to life—just the way that actually gets words on the page.
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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Pen Pals' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi Chris Aaron. Hi Kelton. How you doing? Oh man, what a shit week. Ugh, God. I'm Chris Aaron Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright.
00:00:11
Speaker
Follow our quest to publish our first novels. From first drafts to query letters. Through inevitable rejections. And hopefully eventual success. From California Colorado. This is Pen Pals.
Reflecting on a Tough Week and Writing Progress
00:00:25
Speaker
How are you doing? Let's start with you because i i think you had a good week. Well, I had a good yesterday. Prior to that, I slept cumulatively maybe six hours over like three days.
00:00:37
Speaker
ah felt miserable. But last night, I finally got a pretty solid night of sleep. And I also yesterday wrote 1500 words.
00:00:49
Speaker
I wrote the opening scene to the book, which I was really excited about. was very exciting when you don't know what the opening scene is to just have it come to you. i was like, oh, what a delight.
00:01:02
Speaker
But how was your week? Tell me all the ways in which it was horrible. Maybe I'm being dramatic, but I started out the week with a rejection from the Tin House Writers Workshop. So I know i'm like, you know what? Fine. Fine.
00:01:17
Speaker
Fine. didn't want to go to the workshop anyway. now um It's always a bummer when you get one of those. i wish this was better news. We regret to inform you. Blah, blah, blah. That was a little bit of a bummer, but um i just really struggled getting up in the morning this week. It was really hard.
00:01:36
Speaker
I think I got out of bed and to my desk on time once this week. And so I didn't spend a lot of time in front of my computer actually doing the work. It was probably, you know, 30 minutes to 45 minutes a day. so it's just like a little bit here and there. um I did come up with a scene that I want to write, which I'm excited about. So once I get to that part of the book, i I'll get to generate some new words and that'll be fun. just a hard...
00:02:07
Speaker
hard week, you know, and I also didn't sleep a ton. So that doesn't help.
Handling Rejection in Writing
00:02:12
Speaker
Chris Aaron shared with me the actual rejection letter from Tin House and it was so nice and friendly. It made me want to stab myself. I was just like, if I got this email, I would be so but that but and There's something about rejection where I want the tone to match the reality.
00:02:32
Speaker
When the tone is so sweet, I'm like, this isn't what's happening. This isn't a nice thing. don't get to make this nice. It drives me crazy.
00:02:44
Speaker
i love when it's so like cut and dry where it's like, unfortunately, you didn't make it. You were not accepted. You know, and you're like, ah, okay, whatever. I'm sorry you didn't get in. They're fools.
00:02:55
Speaker
And may you get into the next one. Yeah, I still haven't gotten my rejection from bread loaf. So...
Apologies and Aspirations in Writing
00:03:01
Speaker
but
00:03:05
Speaker
oh I did want to start with a little bit of an apology to you. For what? I know you probably didn't think anything of it, but as I was editing the episode, ah i first of all, i called you a capitalist. Like, was an insult.
00:03:22
Speaker
When we were talking about how... how we envision our writing looking. And I asked you, you're like, oh, besides being incredibly wealthy, and I called you a capitalist. was like, wow, that was really dismissive of me. i think for me, the reason why I said that was because um I've never, ever made money for my writing, ever.
00:03:42
Speaker
So like the thought of getting rich from it, I'm like, that's never going to happen. But you do make money from your writing. And I think you will definitely become very wealthy from it. So I just wanted to like th throw that out there as one apology. And then the second one.
00:03:57
Speaker
Speaking of throwing things out there, that that is my method. I'm just, that is the only manifestation I do is to tell the universe that I would like to be wealthy from this thing, though I, universe, cover your ears for a minute.
00:04:13
Speaker
I find it highly unlikely I will become wealthy from my writing, but I don't want to cut myself off before
Writing Approaches: Outlining vs. Pantsing
00:04:19
Speaker
it happens. The thing is, I think you will become wealthy from your writing, so I i shouldn't have been like so dismissive of that. Because it is important. I think like we do these things, we want them to be our careers, and so I shouldn't scoff at that.
00:04:34
Speaker
But then the other thing was, i was as I was going through and I realized, im let's do a book swap. I realized I'm burned out you are. I'm like, Kelton, finish your book so I can give you mine.
00:04:46
Speaker
so inconsiderate. If you watch the YouTube version of that episode, you can see just sheer panic across my face where I'm don't know.
00:04:57
Speaker
At that point, it was like the but just like in the beginning of like us not sleeping in this house. And so i was just like, don't know how I'm going to do it.
00:05:09
Speaker
had this huge presentation looming. There was like no work. Ben just kept being like, how are
00:05:17
Speaker
Oh, ah so anyway, i just wanted to get that off my chest because I want to, you know, be a good friend and a good supportive partner. And I, you know, sometimes I i say things and then afterwards, I'm like, that was stupid. So.
00:05:30
Speaker
Well, no offense taken and all forgiven. Okay, great. Great. Wonderful. Did you meet your writing goals for this week? Because I forgot. You just wanted to make words. So it sounds like I wanted to make words and I did it.
00:05:44
Speaker
I would have liked to make a few more words, but I still have Saturday of this week to do that. And it was so exciting having the kicking off point for the book.
00:05:55
Speaker
You know, I have speaking about what we're going to talk about today. ah have the outline, but the outline doesn't include exactly how things happen. And so it's Knowing where the main character starts from was a little murky from exactly what that opening scene is, you know, because everybody is like, oh, if you don't get them in the first few pages, good luck.
00:06:18
Speaker
And so thinking about how do i position my characters in the first paragraph so that you want to know way more about her? And I feel like I nailed that for a first draft.
00:06:30
Speaker
Obviously, you know, it's like I know it has to go through all the rounds of edits, but ah I felt so good about it that I was happy with the amount of words I got. When I saw your text come through telling me how much work you got done, I just feel like it was probably bottled up.
00:06:49
Speaker
So all that time you spend wanting to write and thinking about writing, but not being able to sit sit down, it's probably just, you know, storing up your reserves so that when you actually get to to sit down and do it, it just comes on out.
00:07:04
Speaker
I also want to shout out two listeners of ours who listened to the last podcast and sent me some advice. Speaking of that, like bottling up and the writing not coming, one of the things I spoke about previously That was driving me kind of crazy is every time I went to write the newsletter, i was faced with all the data about its performance, just because that's like the homepage for your dashboard.
00:07:28
Speaker
And Charlotte of Baby Brain on Substack and Olivia Munter of the same name on Substack both wrote to me to be like, I have earmarked my drafts page so that I skip right over the data. I don't see any of my stats.
00:07:43
Speaker
And I go right into the portal where my actual writing is. And that's how they get around seeing all of the horror. ah they like They have all these like stock market tickers on your Substack things now where it's like paid subscribers are going down and your views are going up because someone hated what you said. You know, it's just like, oh God.
00:08:05
Speaker
So thank you to Olivia and Charlotte for guiding me on the path of not seeing that ever
Reflections on Writing Goals and Methods
00:08:11
Speaker
again. i did feel when I changed that, I felt unlocked on the newsletter and sleeping helped me feel unlocked on the novel. So what what a treat.
00:08:21
Speaker
What a treat. I love it. I don't remember what my goals were for last week. I know. This week's been horrible. Yeah, I mean, I didn't write them down last week either. Okay, well then it's your fault.
00:08:36
Speaker
It's my fault. It's my fault.
00:08:42
Speaker
How am I supposed to make my goals, Kelton, if you don't write them down for me?
00:08:48
Speaker
Okay, well, that is because I didn't follow the structure of the things that we were working on. And that is what we are talking about today.
00:08:59
Speaker
Structure, outlines, planning, and the exact opposite of that, pantsing. That's right. Now, I told my mom that we were going to talk about this today, and she had an assumption about...
00:09:15
Speaker
what type each of us were. do you have do you have a guess what it is? oh I'm almost certain that she guessed that you were an outliner and I was a pantser.
00:09:26
Speaker
You're correct.
00:09:29
Speaker
um And I think to a degree that that mostly was correct for me. No, it's not. i am not an outliner. You're not an outliner? Not when I start writing a new story. No, not at all.
00:09:42
Speaker
Not at all. But, you know, I haven't written... haven't started a new story in a while. I've been working on this story for really long time. So I get myself into a lot of trouble when I'm working on a new story and I just have, you know, the idea what I want to write about.
00:10:01
Speaker
i am just feeling my way through it for the whole first draft. I just wow lying by the seat of my pants, letting my characters tell me where they want to go and what they want to do. And then...
00:10:13
Speaker
I will go back and try and put some structure on it. But for that first draft, nah, I'm just letting letting it flow, baby. Me, I'm learning something new about you. So i every time I have been ah close to one of your writing projects, it has either been after completion of a draft or revisiting a draft.
00:10:35
Speaker
And so I've never talked to you as a writing friend while you're starting something new. So this is fun for me to learn. It's been a while. i The last new project that I started...
00:10:47
Speaker
was a romance novel that I still have in the back of my head that I do want to work on because it's really fun. um And it's set in the desert because all of my stories return to the desert in some way, shape or form.
00:10:59
Speaker
But I'm just like, wouldn't this be fun? Let me throw in this complication and let me like this character do this. And and I just play with it. It's playing for me. It's super enjoyable. And I i do that part in a very casual way.
00:11:16
Speaker
And then I go back and inflict pain on myself afterwards. To your point about the first couple of pages really have to be impactful and draw the reader in. i don't worry about that at all.
00:11:28
Speaker
In my first draft. I could give a shit. I'm going to just get the story down on the page and figure out what I love about it. And then I'll go back and move things around and change things completely in order to give it a structure that is compelling and move the reader through in a way that makes sense. But i
Challenges and Benefits of Writing Without Outlines
00:11:45
Speaker
don't worry about any of that in the first draft at all.
00:11:48
Speaker
I mean, i that was how I had operated. Prior to the novel I'm working on with you, I had tried to start three, i think three other novels in the pantsing method.
00:12:01
Speaker
um The idea just came to me and I started writing and I really liked the characters and then it just fizzled and it didn't go anywhere. And I found that I could not...
00:12:14
Speaker
and I just like couldn't put one foot in front the other because I was like, where are we going? And I wanted so badly to be a pantser because I am a pantser with essays. I don't outline an essay. Are you out of your mind?
00:12:26
Speaker
i just sit down and I write it. And it's like, if it's not great, you know, like I might edit the beginning. I might move a paragraph around, but there's not really that same like Truby's 22 steps to your perfect story involved in there. You're just like, does it flow? Does it catch someone? Does it end on a point?
00:12:43
Speaker
And you're like, great, done. And found that the one like real fiction short story that I finished when I was trying to adapt it and edit it it into like change it into sort of the beginning of a novel, i was so attached to how it flowed that I couldn't move things around.
00:13:06
Speaker
And this time, Writing scenes that I know I have to move around and I know I have to put them in the outline I wrote has made me less attached to when they happen.
00:13:17
Speaker
And as much as I thought I was not an outliner, i think so I might be. And it's also like, babe, You were a project manager. You were like a producer, ah managing editor.
00:13:31
Speaker
What part of me thought that I wasn't going to have some organizational system that I was just going to be like, well, the story just pours out of me. I don't know how it happens.
00:13:41
Speaker
It's just a whimsical joke. Like what a dream for that to be true for me. But it is not. I was fooling myself for over a decade. And now here we are. When you were describing these other stories that you wrote as a pantser and they just fizzled out, i that's happened to me too.
00:13:59
Speaker
i think sometimes stories are good ideas, but they're not they they don't make good novels. like There's not enough meat on the bones for them to actually like become a thing. i think that that's I think that that's what it is for me.
Utilizing Writing Tools for Organization
00:14:12
Speaker
And if I'm still interested in the idea and still want to make it work, then I find a way to pants my my way through to a full draft. But I've definitely had... I have short stories. I've had lots of things that are sitting unfinished, you know, it's drafts and they might not ever be a complete project on their own. They might just be compost for something else, but that's okay. I think outlining is very valuable and I need it and once I have a full draft. Like I need some way to see the structure. I'm a little bit more of a visual person in that respect. I can't
00:14:46
Speaker
I think that's what it is. I cannot visualize something that's not done. You know, like my husband's are really good. Good with like, oh, well, if we move this around and he helped with the remodel of the house, like this is how it should look.
00:15:00
Speaker
And I'm like, I can't even picture what this would look like in 3D. So for me, I have to feel my way through. And then once it's all there, then I can be like, oh, yeah, like. that shouldn't go there or that chair doesn't belong in that corner. Then I can see it when I start moving the furniture around, then I'm like, okay, this feels right, but i have to be in it first.
00:15:18
Speaker
I can't, I can't look at it and then just like put it down based on that. So that's probably just a deficiency of mine that I can't see the forest for the trees. Is that the right expression?
00:15:31
Speaker
Well, is that a deficiency or is that your operating mode? It might just be how I operate. Since you're not outlining from the beginning, what do you do with your first draft? How do you turn that into an outline?
00:15:45
Speaker
Does it look like an outline? Like, what do you turn it into first? You've talked about using spreadsheets before. ah so it's like if someone like you... is a pantser who wants to think through their first draft and have it be a more cohesive via using some kind of quote unquote outline.
00:16:04
Speaker
What is your step to doing that? So I don't think that I could be a pantser without Scrivener. I use Scrivener almost like an outline, right? Because they have folders and files.
00:16:17
Speaker
So I will name those folders and files. And so I can see visually all of the different pieces of my novel. And then from there, it makes it a little bit easier to know what is where and how to move things around and where the scenes are, et cetera.
00:16:32
Speaker
I think that if I were writing it in a Word document, it would be a nightmare. It would be an absolute nightmare because it's just like one big blob of text and I wouldn't know where anything is and I would completely forget about scenes that I'd written or important pieces of the plot that are buried in something else. So...
00:16:50
Speaker
I do think that the tool that I'm using allows me to be a bit more of a pantser because it's already structured in a way that allows me to see pieces of the novel.
00:17:01
Speaker
um So I highly recommend using Scrivener or figuring out a way to organize your scenes so that you know where everything is. That's my number one recommendation is the tools that you're using are really important.
00:17:14
Speaker
And if you're still writing in Google Sheets and Google Sheets, you can put like tabs and stuff. so that might actually be better. But if you're just working in like Microsoft Word, maybe consider something else.
00:17:26
Speaker
It's been
Creative Writing Techniques: Scenes and Outlines
00:17:27
Speaker
so long since I've used Microsoft Word. I'm a Google Docs girl all the way, but for this novel, it's Scrivener. um And same same way that you've sort of spoken about it, in Google Docs, I feel the enormity of the book in front of me.
00:17:45
Speaker
Whereas with Scrivener, the way that you have to use it, if you're using it correctly, is that each page is a scene. And so it's like and i'm I have never thought in such scene work while I'm writing.
00:18:00
Speaker
But now I know it's like this is one scene and it needs to have a driving factor. and And if I haven't gotten to that driving factor, mean, obviously there's like segue scenes and things like that handoffs. But if I don't feel like though there's momentum happening, then I'm like, something's not right here.
00:18:17
Speaker
And so it has helped me in that way to use Scrivener itself. Are you writing your story chronologically? Or you know jump around?
00:18:28
Speaker
I've been jumping around a lot. With my outline, in the outline itself, the opening is like Bren feels a calling to Amanita Keith.
00:18:41
Speaker
And that's it. Like, it's it doesn't say anything about like, this is where she is. This is like ah what she finds. This is what calls to her. It's and I was I'm leaving that open. And so most of my outline is like um gets in a fight with her fake ally meets her opponent.
00:18:59
Speaker
You know, it's it's very, it it is very methodical in that way where I am sort of save the catting my way through this book. I also like my books to feel like movies. And so that is, it's useful for me to think in those story arcs and steps. This is not a super non-traditional book.
00:19:19
Speaker
This is a commercial enterprise over here. Okay. We're to make money. going to making money with this book. So let me ask you, write chronologically. i write my stories from start to finish, which is...
00:19:34
Speaker
I think kind of i don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but I'm like, that in the beginning, the end. That's what I tried to do That's every other time I have tried to write a book. That is what I tried to do. And I was like, I trust the characters are going to take me on this journey with them.
00:19:50
Speaker
And the characters were just like at the bus stop with me. And they were like, so who drives the bus? And I was like, oh, no, I thought you did. and we're both just standing there waiting for a bus driver.
00:20:03
Speaker
So doing the outline, it's like if that helped me think through the whole story. But that doesn't mean I want to write it from the beginning. I have these like driving scenes that I have picture that are fully cinematic in my head. And I'm like, I can get those out.
00:20:20
Speaker
And then go back and do everything else. Do ever feel like your outline is hampering your creativity in any way or restricting your spontaneity while you're writing?
00:20:36
Speaker
not right now. I think that's partially because my outline is so vague. And I also, you know, i'm I'm going to prioritize what gives me joy over the outline every time.
00:20:48
Speaker
I'm going to like, oh, outline, you can wait. And then I'll just be like, how can I make this part of the outline? um i don't sit down and look at the outline first.
00:20:58
Speaker
The outline's done. It's in the back of my head. It's on a tab in Google Docs where I have like three different versions of an outline, actually, where I'm like, the story could do this. The story could do that.
00:21:09
Speaker
um And so I'm writing the scenes as they feel right. And then I
Impact of Outlining on Creativity
00:21:13
Speaker
will map them against that outline. So that for my stickies on the wall that you inspired me to do that is sort of what's happening. As I get a scene that really feels right, it goes up on the wall.
00:21:24
Speaker
And then i I'm moving them around physically on the wall to be like, does this happen here? Does this happen here? Do we ever need to know this? And so it's to me, it has felt like more work.
00:21:38
Speaker
And I think that is actually why I never did an outline before is because it was way more work. And it's you can also find out pretty quickly if your story doesn't have legs when you try to do an outline because you're like, oh, but but there's nothing here.
00:21:52
Speaker
um So it's helped me enormously because this is the first time truly that I've been like, no, I have book here. It may not be a great book. You know, it it might not be anything anyone wants to read, but it's something I want to write.
00:22:06
Speaker
And I want have it. You are going to read it. I'm waiting this summer. I'm going to read it that all you Definitely. You know what? I don't think it's more work. I think we all end up having to do that work eventually. I think it's an inescapable part of writing a book. And as you were saying that I was remembering...
00:22:26
Speaker
you talked about studying screenwriting and obviously a screenplay is a very strict structure and beats that have to happen at specific points in the story. And, you know, the the hero's journey is kind of the same idea where a hero goes on an adventure and he meets a friend and all of these things happen.
00:22:44
Speaker
And I can see how there is a benefit for having that structure in place, even if you wanted to plot out, you know, the rising action and the climax and the, you know, all of that in advance of starting a story.
00:22:58
Speaker
Because what ends up happening with me as a pantser is I write all this stuff, sometimes over a hundred thousand words that I'm like, oh shit.
00:23:09
Speaker
yeah Now I got to impose a structure on it and start moving stuff around. And it is really hard. um And it probably would save some headache if I were to do that pre-work before i started dancing.
00:23:25
Speaker
So I feel like it all ends up... uh, figuring itself out. And it's really about how you work and how it helps you guide your ideas and what you're going to focus on and, and your storytelling. Um, so maybe for my next project, I'll try outline and see if that helps.
00:23:45
Speaker
Cause right
Influence of Screenwriting on Novels
00:23:46
Speaker
now I'm in the, you know, in the throes of trying to figure out how to make this multi-generational story with all these flashbacks and interludes and this stuff all flow in a story that has a main plot that happens in real time.
00:24:03
Speaker
So that's been my struggle. But also I'm like, I just, I'm going to hire an editor and have those only ones to do. You're like, what do you think the outline is?
00:24:14
Speaker
Yeah. How would you structure this story? These writers who write these like brilliant books that have these really smart structures and you get to the end of it. You're like, oh, that was amazing. Like, I just I really am.
00:24:32
Speaker
I'm impressed by them. I just don't think I'm that type of writer. Like I'm not a Donna Tartt, you know, I'm not going to blow your mind with details and structure. That's just not
Elements of Story Development: People, Place, Problem
00:24:42
Speaker
not going to get that out of me.
00:24:44
Speaker
i was thinking recently about Liz Moore, who wrote The God of the Woods and how she approaches story ideas. And for her, it's that she starts with people, place and problem.
00:24:56
Speaker
And if she has those, then she can move forward. And that is what I did with the novel I'm currently working on. It wasn't people first. It was place and problem.
00:25:07
Speaker
And people came secondary from that. And they like percolated up from the ground of the place I had developed. I was like, ah, yes, I can see them clearly. And that to me was really helpful thinking about those three core tenants of the story.
00:25:21
Speaker
And because I one of my the short story I referred to earlier that I was trying to adapt into a novel a few years ago, i didn't actually have a problem. As I was reading through it again, I had great people and I had great place and there were like little problems, but there was no actual problem.
00:25:40
Speaker
And I was like, oh, I'm missing a reason for this to exist. I'm just like I'm peepholing on these characters, just watching them in their everyday lives. But there's no inciting incident that causes a story to come together.
00:25:54
Speaker
And so when I can step back and see those three elements, I'm like, aha, that's what I need. and I think it was also Liz Moore was talking about, because I believe that book jumps around from character to character. It's a mystery. Have you read it?
00:26:07
Speaker
So I, it's my book club book that I'm supposed to be reading for, I get together with my friends from college. And Sabine
Timing and Character Introduction in Stories
00:26:14
Speaker
is at sleep away camp this week and so i open the book and it's like barbara's missing she's not in her bunk at camp but i'm like nope put that away we'll read that later i'm not gonna give anything i'm not gonna give anything away by saying this but i believe that it was liz moore who said that when she changes from one character to the next is right when that character she's writing is about to give something away
00:26:39
Speaker
And so she just stops writing whatever's happening to them so that the story still has forward momentum, which I loved thinking about it that way. Just like an easy framework of like as soon as a character is about to step on the tripwire of your reveal, you just stop that scene.
00:26:59
Speaker
You're like, OK, well, we're moving on to a different character. there is a book, I'm trying to pull it up. I'm not trying to be rude and like look at my phone while we're talking. and Worry by Alexandra Tanner. Have you read this book?
00:27:10
Speaker
No, I don't know it. Because you were saying like a book has to have a problem in a place and it can't just be a glimpse into ever wrote these people's lives. And this book was just that.
00:27:21
Speaker
was just like, let me take me along on the journey of these two sisters who are kind of crazy. And I enjoyed reading it, but then I got to the end and i was like, You know, like, what? What happened? Nothing happened.
00:27:32
Speaker
And I guess it's also kind of like um or a Murakami novel, right? It's like just vibes. I wish I could not stand. And i think you have to be a really good writer to pull that off. But similar to Liz Moore, I like the why now question. These people are living their lives. Why are we entering the scene now?
00:27:48
Speaker
Why are we... Being introduced to them now, what's going on? What is the inciting incident that is bringing all of these things to a head? And that, I think, really helps me start writing. Yeah. um But I like the people place problem structure.
00:28:05
Speaker
I love thinking about the fact that they've just been living this whole time. That like, we're just coming in for the book part, but they had normal lives, you know, with all their tribulations, blah, blah, blah.
00:28:18
Speaker
But it's like, there's a reason this is where the book starts. Yeah. Oh, that's so sweet. All my characters have just been hanging out all this time. They're waiting for you. who said that? There was a writer who said that. um Is that Liz Gilbert?
00:28:32
Speaker
No. I mean, she has definitely said something like that. feel like characters are like floating around waiting for you to pluck them into existence. I love that idea of that. She has said that like,
00:28:43
Speaker
You know, an idea comes to you. And if you don't act on it, it will go to someone else. And she said that specifically, I think, about um i don't believe this. She said that Ann Patchett wrote this wonderful book called State of Wonder, which is about a middle aged woman um who goes to the jungle.
00:29:02
Speaker
um That's kind of all you need to know as a premise. And Elizabeth Gilbert had that idea and didn't act on it. And
Shared Inspiration and Idea Development
00:29:10
Speaker
then Ann Patchett wrote State of Wonder. And i i always wondered if Ann Patchett was like... It's probably way better than Liz Gilbert could have written it.
00:29:18
Speaker
there so Yeah, like... Oh, your idea just floated over to me. I mean, it's like it's a it's a sweet motivator. If you if that compels you to be like, I want to bring this idea to life before it goes to someone else to help it.
00:29:31
Speaker
But that said, I'm like, I I really look at the characters who are stuck in my drafts and I'm like, I'm sorry. i i will find a way to get you out of there i will get you out of there i like talk to them sometimes because i'm just like i have this like space opera that i really love that i like can't
Character Development and Story Progression
00:29:50
Speaker
wait to write one day i just don't have everything i i need for it and one of the characters i just like talk to her when i'm in the woods because i'm like i know that you are like rampaging you are so excited to be on the page
00:30:03
Speaker
She's like my most impulsive character I've ever written. And she's just crawling out of the screen. And I'm like, it's not your turn. You got to hang out. Bren has been waiting to be written for so long and she finally has her book. So just hang out.
00:30:20
Speaker
I also think of my characters that they're just like living their lives, waiting for me to come along, you know, out in the desert in her romance bookstore, waiting for me to tell her love story.
00:30:31
Speaker
And it, they're real people to me. I'm sure your characters are real people to
Finding Inspiration in Unexpected Places
00:30:36
Speaker
you. But when I finally sat down to write Unforgettable, which is the speculative fiction novel that, that you read, Kelton, I've been thinking about it for 11 years. And so I sat down to write it and I wrote it so fast.
00:30:47
Speaker
Yeah. Because I've just been thinking about it for so long. So your your space opera friend will get her chance to shine. my can't i love a space opera. Can't wait to read it I know. I'm so excited to write it.
00:31:02
Speaker
It's definitely going to be my smuttiest novel. How does one smut in space? girl. I mean, these are the details that take decades to think through. Okay.
00:31:14
Speaker
That's what you've been thinking about. Yeah. Ever since I interviewed Scott Kelly about his time in space, I was just like, I ain't actually had more questions. You interviewed Scott Kelly. I did.
00:31:25
Speaker
Yeah. I think about that interview all the time while having a baby because we were talking about flying fighter jets and how do you sleep the night before you actually have to get in an F-14.
00:31:38
Speaker
And he was like, you don't, but you just you close your eyes and you just rest. And he's like, you know, and that's it. You just get rest when you can. It doesn't have to be sleep and you shouldn't put the pressure on yourself to sleep.
00:31:51
Speaker
You're just resting. And now that is my mantra through parenthood. I'm like, don't worry about sleep. You're
Listener Engagement and Shared Writing Experiences
00:31:58
Speaker
just resting. The worst thing you can do when you can't sleep is fixate on the fact that you can't sleep. so listening no and so It's like go to your favorite daydream and just move the plot forward.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah. Bring your little mind sims back from wherever they were waiting. And so reenact your favorite made up story about yourself. Before we close out talking about pantsing and outlining, I do want to ask our listeners to tell us their methods.
00:32:29
Speaker
You can DM us. We'll give you all the information at the end. You can email us. You know where to find us. But please tell me how you approach your writing, especially if you do it in any sort of strange fashion.
00:32:42
Speaker
you have any peculiarities you would like to share, I would like to hear them. But I believe we have something kind of fun to move toward, Chris Aaron. Yeah. So last week we asked our listeners to send us in some questions and we got some.
00:32:56
Speaker
So i will. I don't know. It's so exciting to hear from people. So the first one is from Steph Gordo. who is wonderful and and not only wrote us a question, but then I went on to our Apple podcast page and she left a review. So thank you, Steph.
00:33:17
Speaker
Oh, you're the best. You're the best. Okay. So her question is, how does inspiration hit you for things that you write or create? Where does your inspiration come from? i try to not think about inspiration too much in that but it's kind of like If you chase it down, it becomes more ephemeral and and more hard to grab.
00:33:39
Speaker
But if I look back at my projects, inevitably, place is an enormous inspiration for me and the history of place. So looking at photographs of l L.A. through history from when it was...
Role of Place in Writing Inspiration
00:33:56
Speaker
you know, beautiful, green, lush, to when there were the lifted boardwalks over traffic, to like the development of the freeways, like thinking about all of the ways that it comes to be. Same with where I live now in the mountains.
00:34:11
Speaker
It has a much smaller development footprint, but thinking about especially the Ute tribes that hunted here. Our valley is relatively uninhabitable. So there weren't actually many people who lived here, but it was a great summer hunting grounds.
00:34:27
Speaker
And then as you know, it was colonized and became like a mining area, like seeing it through history and thinking about all the people. I specifically think often about all the people who died there.
00:34:38
Speaker
So many people have died everywhere in so many outrageous ways. And like, what was the story of how they came to live there and how they came to die there? Specifically, like the story I'm writing now is really inspired by my research on our local cemetery.
00:34:52
Speaker
Um, And I spent like a month writing a piece about our cemetery here because I i looked up every single person I could find. And then I was just deep in the Colorado archives looking for any mention of this town and death or funeral or illness and seeing like just all of these people. And it was so inspiring to me about like, OK, how would what is the history of this place? So that for me, that's like a core inspiration.
00:35:21
Speaker
And when I am on the hunt for inspiration, I restart the artist's way. I've never done the artist's way. Oh, I've never done the whole thing. Yeah, never mind. Who finishes it?
00:35:32
Speaker
I always get to like week eight and I'm like, but that's the thing is like by week eight, my juices are, they're back, they're running. We've got four locomotives on this train. We are gunning for the horizon.
00:35:45
Speaker
um so I don't have to finish the book. I'm like, I know I have what I need to do what I want. nice Yeah. So that's that's usually the inspiration for me is history of place or I do the homework of inspiration with Julia Cameron.
00:36:02
Speaker
ah You stole my answer. Place my inspiration. but For sure. Not only place, but places that are really kind of like your newsletter, chosen places, the places that people choose to inhabit that are really out there and different and the type of people who choose to go and live in them.
00:36:22
Speaker
Growing up in the desert has such a huge imprint on me as a child. And I lived there from the age, I think of like six until I was 11 And we had a whole bunch of land and horses and animals. And i was just allowed to free roam.
00:36:38
Speaker
And my parents would just say come home when the sun goes down, you know. And so me and my my friends, we would just explore and create stories in our head about the mountains, the history of the mountains.
00:36:51
Speaker
people who live there. And so there's a lot of imagination, creativity in my childhood. And I think that's why I'm so enamored with the desert because so much of my spirit was born and there. and the desert is definitely a huge inspiration for me.
00:37:06
Speaker
But even the parts of l a that I grew up in, San Gabriel Valley, that has this history of agriculture and a blend to this day of white and brown and Black people who all came in the mid-20th century to inhabit those areas just out of the city. I think all of those things are so fascinating.
00:37:24
Speaker
And then when I went to Italy recently, I went to all of these different towns and had an idea for a short story come up from there. There's actually a science fiction short story, but set in Tuscany. So for me, place is huge.
00:37:37
Speaker
place is definitely the biggest inspiration for me. I have to be able to fully inhabit that place because I'm not a visual person. So I have to kind of been there.
00:37:47
Speaker
Even when I'm writing places that I've never been, i will go on YouTube and do the street walkthroughs where people are just like walking around their cameras and their microphones and recording the sounds and people going about their day. So that
Overcoming Writing Struggles and Personal Growth
00:38:00
Speaker
is definitely how I get my ideas. But I think we have time for maybe one more question.
00:38:06
Speaker
you want to do one more before we share goals? Sure. Okay. Are there any aspects of writing that you struggle with in particular, any any crutches that you return to? I have the hardest time describing um and showing emotion in the body and trying to make people understand how people are feeling through their physical reactions. And I just always default to the same things and I hate it.
00:38:31
Speaker
i feel like I describe things the same way a lot and have to go back and be like, oh, i use this metaphor again. Like, Cut this shit out. Well, i I will tell you a trick I use for what you're describing.
00:38:43
Speaker
i go and watch my favorite scenes from movies that evoke that feeling in me. So like if I'm writing about someone's first kiss, I watch Nick and Jess's first kiss from New Girl.
00:38:56
Speaker
Cause I'm like that, that's what I'm going after. ah yeah but think that i mean, I used to love it it. used to love it. It's like, it stands out in history to me though, is like one of the best onscreen TV kisses.
00:39:13
Speaker
I think they're so gross. Look, I'm not saying they're great. I'm saying that kiss is great. What do I... so I mean, I think one of the things I struggle with inevitably is tense.
00:39:25
Speaker
struggle with tense. And I don't have a fix for it. It's...
00:39:29
Speaker
Good luck to my editor. Should I find one? um But I recently came up against a realization that there might be a character in my book who is telling it. And you won't know that until the end.
00:39:43
Speaker
um And thinking about that has kind of messed with my head a little while I'm writing and I'm like, stop it. Stop it. Don't worry about it.
00:39:53
Speaker
Like, just get that out of there. If that's meant to be, we'll figure it out later. But tense is really hard for me. And in that short story I keep talking about, I changed to the tense and the POV like four times.
00:40:06
Speaker
ah was just like, what what is the right way to tell this story? And it's so hard to change those. That for me is a big struggle. And I think that's just because i don't have a lot of practice writing fiction.
00:40:17
Speaker
I haven't written a lot of stories. And so that, you know, those elements, I think, are easier easier over time as you kind of know how to maneuver them that. Oh, I struggle with that. And I try just not to think about it.
00:40:32
Speaker
I'm actually struggling with tense in my current novel. i keep going back and forth to making it present tense, which I've never liked. Like reading present tense, a lot of YA is written in present tense and I've never truly loved it, but it doesn't feel right to write it in like a close past tense either. so I will be editing and I'll be changing the tenses all over the place.
00:40:55
Speaker
But I do think it's something that another person can very easily tell you. Because I know that when I read other people's work and the tenses are all over the place, I'm like, no, no, no, it needs to be in this tense. And they're like, okay, cool. So I feel like you'll, feel like that's a problem you'll be able to solve. For me? Yeah, I'll help you. Yeah.
00:41:11
Speaker
Of course. um I sort of love trying to figure out how people feel in their body. Like I recently wrote a scene where one of my characters falls on their face. And so I just i'm I'm not lying. I hit myself in the face.
00:41:26
Speaker
You would. I just smacked myself in the face because I was like, why with a paperback, not like a hardcover. Because I was like, what does it feel like? I can think about what it feels like.
00:41:37
Speaker
But what does it really feel like when it happens? You know, you're like, what? Aha. Aha. Okay,
Setting New Writing Goals and Community Engagement
00:41:45
Speaker
and there we go. Oh, my goodness. Well, that was fun. We definitely more questions. We'll save them for the next episode.
00:41:51
Speaker
And we should talk about our goals. Hit me. What's your goal? e Hit me with a soft paperback.
00:42:03
Speaker
My goal for this week, I want to write that scene. want to write that. There's a ah scene that I had written a long time ago and i actually read it for the final reading for my fellowship.
00:42:16
Speaker
And it's a graphic scene that happens in a bar. And the way that I've written it, it's kind of like ah a downer scene. She goes to a bar, she picks up a guy, the interaction doesn't go well, they get into a fight.
00:42:29
Speaker
But it happens the end of her marriage and her job and everything's imploding. It's her rock bottom. And I just want her to have like one fantastic flare out, like one moment of just like, fuck it all, leaving everything on the dance floor, just pure. I don't care anymore. And I'm going to just go for it before everything everything else was crashing down. So I'm going to write that. I need to get into a state of euphoria to write that.
00:42:56
Speaker
And that is my, I think my goal for next week, I'm closing in on the third part of the book to to revise it. And I still need, I remember what my goals were for last week. I was going to figure out editing and right and workshops and stuff.
00:43:12
Speaker
So I'm to do that this week. I'm going to do that this week. How about you? What are your goals? Well, my first goal is to write down what your goals are. Thank you. Thanks mom.
00:43:24
Speaker
um Okay, so my goal this week is 3000 words and I'll tell you why. um i closed out. You can do it. You can do it. The client this week, I finished building out a presentation for another client that I have to give next week. And so we did the test run and I feel really good about it. And so all I have to do is show up to the two times I have to present it.
00:43:48
Speaker
And for my other two existing clients, work is minimal. this coming week. And so I get my Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday, and ah now i I will have a lot of work to do. So there's no reason for me not to start those days with the novel.
00:44:06
Speaker
Tuesday? Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday? Saturday sort of has to be a newsletter day inevitably. And like part of Tuesday is also newsletter day, but Wednesday and Thursday are guaranteed novel days.
00:44:21
Speaker
Okay. So you got an average a thousand words a day next week. Yeah. Which okay I think I can do. I want, I want a text. I want a text message confirmation that it's happening or that it's not happening.
00:44:34
Speaker
Okay. Okay. All right. Those are our goals. Amazing. ya Yay. So a reminder, we want to hear about your pantsing or outlining or whatever you do. Please let us know.
00:44:49
Speaker
We want to hear about it. Yeah. Keep the questions coming for us. We're going to have, I think it seems like kind of an ongoing Q&A feature, which I think is a delight. Yeah. We have like 10 more.
00:45:00
Speaker
So oh we got... We got a lot. I thought we'd have more time to answer more questions during this episode. Maybe we need um but another bonus episode to talk about them. Where can the people talk to us? You can email us at officialpenpalspod at gmail.com. Find us on Instagram or TikTok. We're on TikTok at penpalspod.
00:45:19
Speaker
And yeah, if you wouldn't mind giving us a review, we love those too. Thank you to everyone who has been sharing the podcast. That is how podcasts get to be successful. So if you like this,
00:45:31
Speaker
please send it to your friends, subscribe, and rate and review. You know how it works in the digital age of algorithmic hell. And we'll be here, writing. In hell.
00:45:44
Speaker
oh'm ki First circle. First circle of life. I don't know what that means. I'm not kidding. Did you read Dante's Inferno? college. was a long time ago.
00:45:55
Speaker
I skimmed everything in college. I loved thinking of how it was tiered endeavor. All right, let's get out of here. All right, have a good week. Happy writing. Happy writing.