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No Writer Makes the Journey Alone
116 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of Pen Pals, Krisserin and Kelton tackle the sometimes awkward, often necessary world of building community and platform as writers. From Kelton's viral dog video that landed her in 'algorithm jail' to Krisserin's anxiety about attending the AWP, they explore the reality behind the numbers game of social media followings and the genuine connections that truly matter in publishing. The duo shares insights on building authentic relationships—whether through cold-emailing authors you admire or joining writing challenges like NaNoWriMo. Whether you're an Instagram influencer or a reclusive novelist, they remind us that the writing journey requires buddies to lift you up, validate your work, and occasionally tell you to 'wake the f*ck up.' Plus: Krisserin's spreadsheet triumph, Kelton's plan to organize scenes with post-it notes on the wall, and their shared ambitious goals for manuscript completion.
Get in contact with us at: officialpenpalspod@gmail.com
Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios
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Transcript
Dealing with Clingy Children
00:00:00
Speaker
I am once again having grandparents in the house and the child is once again refusing their care. It's a little better this time, but it is still quite arduous.
00:00:12
Speaker
He doesn't just want to be held by me. He wants to be reassured that these people aren't going to steal him. So he's like extra clingy. How are you feeling about that? ah you Are you frustrated?
00:00:24
Speaker
yeah I mean, it's obviously a delight to be so loved, but it is annoying to have this little barnacle.
Introduction of Hosts and Their Writing Journey
00:00:30
Speaker
I'm Chris Aaron Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels. From first drafts to query letters. Through inevitable rejection. And hopefully eventual success.
00:00:40
Speaker
From California Colorado. This is Pen Pals.
Chris's Novel Progress and Writing Routine
00:00:44
Speaker
But he allowed me some work. How are you this week? I'm okay. got some work done.
00:00:51
Speaker
Last week, my goals were to wake up at five, map out the end of my book, and read some stuff on structure.
00:01:02
Speaker
and I feel like I did that for the most part. I didn't wake up at five on Monday because it was a holiday. So I allowed myself an extra day of sleep. But what I did do which I found very helpful, was opened an Excel spreadsheet, which working and in digital marketing, I'm very comfortable spreadsheets.
00:01:25
Speaker
And i basically, wrote out every scene and flashback in my book and I put them where they are in chapter form and then all the scenes that I had in my head that I wanted to write out I put them at the bottom and then as I was writing them structuring them into the different cells and the different rows so that I could see where everything was and it really helped and actually took some of the pressure off of me
00:01:56
Speaker
having this complete picture of my book. It allowed me to kind of think about things in movable pieces, which was really nice, and also gave me something to think about in terms of what I was going to write next without feeling this need to have it connect perfectly.
00:02:14
Speaker
so it allowed me to have a little bit more freedom and actually wrote
Kelton's Reflection on Writing Goals
00:02:19
Speaker
those scenes. I wrote quite a few of them this week, so I did get some writing done and I did wake up at five. It was hard. I think I got to my desk by 530 after snoozing for a little bit, but I did that. And I did read some stuff on structure. I went back to some of the things that I had from the class that I took last fall around structure. And I read those and we had a presentation in the class I'm currently taking from an author named Kim Cross who talked about structure. So I had some tangible,
00:02:52
Speaker
lecture material that I could read from. So it helped. And I just, I think the biggest thing that I needed was just to take pressure off of myself. There is this just feeling, especially since we're meeting and talking about it every week.
00:03:05
Speaker
Yeah. Which I think is a good thing. I think it's a forcing function for me, but it also feels like I have to, every time I i sit here front of a microphone with you, have a really clear, like, this is what I did and I figured this out. But having the spreadsheet helped me kind of just take the pressure off a little bit and feel like I'm writing the pieces without...
00:03:29
Speaker
putting the Lego set together quite yet. So felt good about it. It must be nice to step back from the writing itself while you're doing that, to be in the spreadsheet rather and than in the novel file and just see them as these separate units and where you don't have to see like the few sentences where the scenes are supposed to meld together.
00:03:49
Speaker
Because then obviously you're like, but
Social Media Following and Publishing Success
00:03:51
Speaker
this turn of phrase, I'm not going to able to use it. i I had a flash of Kelton in my head because I was spending so much time in the spreadsheet that I was like, oh, I'm getting distracted by this. I'm actually not writing because I'm spending so much time trying to like move things around. And i was looking at things I'd already written.
00:04:12
Speaker
because I have scenes and I have flashbacks and I have these interludes that are told from a different POV that are meant to be pieces of another written text. And was like, oh, but like there should be a rhythm to it. And like I started thinking, I was like, no, I can't do that. I got to forget about that for now and just keep moving forward and not get distracted by the pre-work and actually keep writing. so I thought about you. I love it.
00:04:37
Speaker
Well, I'm glad I could be of service. That sounds really helpful. And I look forward to creating a similar spreadsheet. Well, what writing did you get done this week? Your goal was three hours and 1500 words. And I had proposed that you get out of the house.
00:04:55
Speaker
I did not get out of the house. I made everyone else get out of the house. Okay. I didn't want to waste time commuting. ah was like, all of you leave. The husband, the baby, grandparents, get out.
00:05:08
Speaker
And that was effective. And I did all three hours. I did everything that I said. And i still found the week somewhat unsatisfactory. Just as a week overall felt like a very frenetic week of constantly handling things and people and moving parts.
00:05:24
Speaker
And I found that agitating. But I did land on like one, how would I describe it? Like a working element of my novel.
00:05:35
Speaker
Something that I could tell an agent that like, this is an interesting thing that this novel does. And so that was really fun to kind of organically come upon just through one of the scenes that I was writing.
00:05:46
Speaker
and So i was that I found that very satisfying. I'm struck by how you achieved all of your goals and you still somehow seem unsatisfied. Yeah, I mean, it you know, sometimes it just it doesn't scratch the itch.
00:05:59
Speaker
I'm glad I achieved them, obviously. i' I'm happy about that. But. I am and like, we need to, i need to have more momentum. And maybe this is the beginning week of momentum for me.
00:06:10
Speaker
Maybe I can look at this as like the first couple of shoves of the boulder, but yeah, I am. I'm starting to like smell the, like a spring in the hair.
00:06:20
Speaker
and I like, I feel the need to be further along. a
00:06:27
Speaker
You know? It's like you can like smell the like essence of petrichor. These trees are making buds deep down in their branches. And
Kelton's Instagram Experience
00:06:36
Speaker
you're like, what am I making? Oh, okay. Well, if we're going to apply the wheel of life, don't gentle parent me.
00:06:42
Speaker
This is not gentle parenting. This is something I learned from the school of the sacred wild. Spring is a coming to life. It is an awakening, right? So if you are giving nature the opportunity to wake up,
00:06:56
Speaker
Just think about your own productivity coming out of a winter in a slow slumber and you're kind of moving your your fingers for the first time, opening your eyes for the first time. It takes a minute to adjust to the new light.
00:07:10
Speaker
Have you seen the movie Double Jeopardy? No. Oh, well, it's one of my favorites. But there is a scene in that movie where Ashley Judd wakes up inside a coffin. Oh, wait!
00:07:22
Speaker
I have seen that one. Yeah, and she just panic bashes her way out of it with like a lighter and like just clawing her way out. That's what I'm like in the springtime. That's me accomplishing my goals.
00:07:35
Speaker
All right. Well, I love it. Well, this week we we're going to talk about community and platforms, right? I sent Kelton this clip on Instagram that was about Uma Thurman and Ethan Hawke's daughter. And she was in production of a movie or she was trying to raise funds. She wanted to delete her Instagram.
00:07:59
Speaker
they basically told her when we are... looking to fund a film. We look at the collective following of all the people involved in the film. And if you delete your Instagram, all of your followers, I have to remove from that following and it's going to make it less likely for us to fund this film.
00:08:13
Speaker
And I sent it to Kelton. Her response was just, we're fucked. Yeah, we are fucked. We are fucked. I mean, me more so than Kelton because Kelton has like 50,000 followers on Instagram and I my Instagram's private. But it does beg the question about networks and and platforms and having a following and how important it is for a writer to have that in order for them to get their book published.
00:08:40
Speaker
Yeah. And to have a loyal following. I think there are some falsehoods that social media platforms can give us about writers and how connected they are. 50,000 followers does not mean 50,000 people are going to preorder your book.
00:08:54
Speaker
And in my case, most of those 50,000 followers don't even know me or or remember that they follow
Digital Marketing Strategies
00:09:00
Speaker
me. I do have to tell a quick story about why i have so many Instagram followers.
00:09:05
Speaker
And I think this is like something healthy to keep in mind when you're comparing yourself to the hordes of popular people on the Internet. I had a great Instagram account once upon a time. And then got snowed in.
00:09:20
Speaker
And i made a video of me opening the door to a wall of snow and then like lifting my dog so he could look out over the top of the snow wall to see over the mountains.
00:09:32
Speaker
And that video um had great engagement the first day. I think it got like 10,000 views. And I was like, whoa, crazy. And then the next day it had 100,000 views. And then over the next two weeks, it got 125 million views.
00:09:47
Speaker
i got six million likes ah It was reposted everywhere. And I took advantage of that. I was getting thousands and thousands of followers. I was making all these funny videos.
00:09:59
Speaker
And then i was watching my analytics and it's just going up and up and up and up. And then one day left on my analytics and it was just a cliff wall in my analytics right down to zero.
00:10:10
Speaker
Zero engagement on anything I posted. And I had 63,000 followers. And so I was like, uh, that's Instagram, as one does.
00:10:22
Speaker
And obviously they don't write back as they do. And ah what ended up happening after I asked a bunch of people in the industry is that I got shadow banned because the activity on my account was so fast and so propulsive that it was considered suspicious.
00:10:39
Speaker
And so basically the algorithm that had skyrocketed me was also what shut my account down. And I have never been able to get back to normal things.
00:10:51
Speaker
Instagram. So like yesterday I posted a bunch of photos of my my flock of cats and dogs and out of all 50,000 people who follow me, ah like 100 liked it.
00:11:06
Speaker
So I'm still in algorithm jail and I've tried all the tricks to get out of it and I can't I can't break free. Every once in a while, I'll like find a way to work the algorithm that I'll get 500 likes.
00:11:21
Speaker
But having 50,000 followers hasn't done anything. So just something to keep in mind. It's better to have a small, engaged, loyal following than it is to have a large group.
00:11:34
Speaker
bogus one that doesn't care about you. Yeah. And I will say just because my day job is in digital marketing and working with influencers, that when we are looking to partnership with an influencer, we look at engagement rate as a metric for whether or not we want to work with that person because they can have millions of followers. And there were so situations where And we worked with celebrities and influencers that had millions of followers and we spent tens of thousands of dollars for content and it did nothing for the business. And that was because a lot of the followers were bots.
00:12:15
Speaker
or not in the country. And so now we've changed our strategy and a lot of people who work with influencers have changed their strategy to understand what the engagement metrics are as a measure of how engaged the audience
Building Platforms through Online Communities
00:12:27
Speaker
is. So I think to your point, it is important that the audience that you're building is one that is engaged with you as is a personal brand, I guess you could say.
00:12:38
Speaker
But a lot of a lot of people are still looking at followers and I was thinking about it. I was trying to put my, you know, my hat of someone who works in this industry and think about it from a publisher's perspective.
00:12:53
Speaker
And I don't know how I should have looked it up ahead of the of our conversation, how much it costs to publish a book, how much investment publishers typically spend to publish promote a book. There are book publicists that even as an individual author, you can hire help you promote your book. But having an audience does give you some way to talk about the fact that you have a book coming out, you know?
00:13:21
Speaker
and I don't know about you, but I do follow some authors that I like on social media and have discovered authors through TikTok that create content there.
00:13:34
Speaker
Sabah Tahir, for example, does a really good job of keeping people updated on what she's publishing and the events that she's going to. And she has a community on Instagram that she posts regularly to and gives updates about her book. And I think she seems to be an older millennial.
00:13:51
Speaker
And feel comfortable being present online. And I think that in order to build an engaged audience, you have to be somewhat native and somewhat fluent and have a feel for how to talk to people online.
00:14:04
Speaker
And for awkward people like me, a bloated fan. I cannot post a selfie. I hate it I'm just, I'm so self-conscious. I don't know i can build a platform that way. So i am nervous about going out into the world.
00:14:22
Speaker
In all of the querying that I did, nobody asked me how many influencer people followers. They asked me about my writing resume and if I had a website, but they didn't say, what is your collective following across all social networks? But I can assume that that's not far off.
00:14:38
Speaker
I'm waiting for that field to appear in Query Tracker. I think now that it's sort of like you only put your GPA on your resume if it was good. You know, it's like if you have 70,000 followers, you put that in your query letter just as like, by the way.
00:14:56
Speaker
And I also want to shout out the fact that like you don't need to be a selfie taking like Instagram dancer. to build a following on the internet. There are quieter, subtler ways to build an audience. And I mean, one of those is obviously through newsletters.
00:15:12
Speaker
One of the authors I subscribe to on Substack, Kate Blanders, she wrote The Year of Less. She's working on a new book now. And with her subscribers, she sent out a newsletter recently that shared her development of the color palette for the book.
00:15:29
Speaker
And we don't even know what the book is about. I have no idea what this next book of hers has anything to do with. But she was describing her thoughts behind building a color theory around it. And I've seen people do similar things with like, this is the playlist I'm building as I write this book.
00:15:45
Speaker
Like ways to like draw people into what you're creating. this This is another way to do it. Obviously, our podcast, we're talking about our books at length without even saying the premises of it.
00:15:56
Speaker
So there are ways to get people interested your writing without even sharing any of it or any of yourself. I am using Substack personally as my new like platform that I would include in a query letter.
00:16:10
Speaker
So I don't know that I would say how many followers I have on Instagram because of the way I feel about those followers. But my subscribers to the newsletter are engaged and are engaged exactly in the writing, not just in pretty photos of a log cabin.
00:16:25
Speaker
So that there is there is a way that is subtle and quiet to do it. Newsletters are definitely one way. I was doing a little bit of research before a conversation around writers that built platforms before they were able to publish.
00:16:38
Speaker
And I found out that Andy Weir, the author of The Martian, actually published and serialized his book on a blog and got noticed that way. Apparently, RF Kuang built a big following on Twitter and was able to have conversations around the themes of the Poppy War, Chinese history and military history before publishing that book. So there are quieter ways. i don't go on Twitter.
00:17:01
Speaker
I haven't been on Twitter in a long time, but definitely not anymore. But there are ways to do it. and I think blogs and online communities are a path into that. I guess the two authors that make up Christina Lauren also met in like a romance writers form. A lot of authors did fan fiction.
00:17:19
Speaker
wrote fan fiction, Twilight fan fiction and other. Oh, Allie Hazelwood's first novel was a fanfic.
Community Building and Networking Importance
00:17:26
Speaker
A lot of writers. There was another novel that I read that was also had started as, you know, fan fiction. So what's interesting about that is that's like normal in screenwriting to do a spec script is like your way to get into a writer's room.
00:17:40
Speaker
And so you you start in that field oftentimes using existing characters and existing like story structures to just be like, this is how I would write those characters. And so it's really ah good thing in that community. And I don't know why in traditional publishing, it still feels kind of like something starting with fan fact.
00:17:59
Speaker
You know, it's like you you just did a spec script that was really, really long. really, really long and was hyper fixated on shipping two characters that I should kiss. God damn it.
00:18:14
Speaker
I think that finding ways to write in general, we talked about that before. It's just practice. It's just practice. And these are definitely places where you can find your tribe and find your people.
00:18:26
Speaker
Have you ever participated in NaNoWriMo? I have tried. so if you're not familiar, Namorimo is a November writing. It's not what would you call it? It's not a competition. It's like a rallying cry for writers, encouraging them to write 50,000 words, 50,000 words in a month. You're supposed to write every single day for the entire month of November.
00:18:53
Speaker
I have a friend who does it every year. I should ask her how how long and completes it. I think so. I should ask her how many, how many books she's actually completed or how many drafts she's completed because she posts about it every November on Facebook. And I've known her since high school.
00:19:09
Speaker
She used to help me speak out of my house and we'd go to Rocky Horror Picture Show in Long Beach in the middle of the night eat milkshakes at Denny's until I got caught and grounded. But yeah, I i honestly, I think there are places to find community online.
00:19:23
Speaker
Yeah, Namorimo does a good job of kind of bringing people together so you can talk about your premise and you can talk about what's getting in your way and how you're making it happen. People are very encouraging to one another.
00:19:35
Speaker
ah similar structured group writing experiment is Jamie Attenberg's. Thousand Words of Summer. She has a book about it too. But that similarly, it's like a thousand words a day for a set time period.
00:19:48
Speaker
So there's all kinds of these online challenges you can find and the people running them are hosting community around it. But you do have to be kind of um annoying to build community on it. Like you got to be in there asking people things and talking to them, sharing ideas. You can't just be like, okay, I'm doing it.
00:20:09
Speaker
Where are my pals? On top of doing the writing, you also have to do the group. So I always find that part really challenging. I'm not naturally... that good at being super engaged and extroverted in that way. My extroversion comes in chunks and then I swallow myself whole into the ground for like a week at a time.
00:20:31
Speaker
And so you got to go into it knowing like, okay, I am going to comment on five people's posts. I'm going to follow up with people that I think are interesting and just be willing to embarrass yourself a little.
00:20:45
Speaker
That's exactly what I was going to say. There is this element of self-promotion that you have to in engage in as a writer that feels a little icky.
00:20:57
Speaker
But when you're trying to build a community, the nice thing about it is that everyone is trying to do the same thing. And a lot of the times whenever I've reached out to someone, i' emailed authors whose books I really enjoyed.
00:21:12
Speaker
a feels a little weird and a little fangirly and a little icky. But actually on the other side of it, like when we got our first email from this podcast, it made me feel so good to know that someone wanted to talk to us and I was interested in what we were talking about. And every time I put myself out there,
00:21:32
Speaker
whether it was in a class or online, i reaped the rewards of it because people are seeking community. Writing is such a lonely endeavor. And when you can connect with someone else who understands the struggles that you are engaging in and is right there with you, not only are they so happy to receive information,
00:21:53
Speaker
any type of word from somebody, but they're so generous with their encouragement and what they give back as well. I've been taking these classes online, which is the first time I've engaged in writer's workshops that weren't in person.
00:22:06
Speaker
i had to kind of go out of my way to you know, in the Zoom classroom, send private messages to people to be like, hey, what do you think about what's happening right now? Or just trying to form a connection in ways that feel very different than how we would conduct ourselves outside of the writing community, right?
00:22:29
Speaker
Mm-hmm. If cold email someone that wasn't a writer about something completely different, you know they're not going to respond. Or if you were to like DM someone online about something completely outside of writing, they're probably going to think you're crazy. But when you do it within a writing community with people that are kind of all trying to do the same thing, it's this weird permission to be awkward and to embarrass yourself a little bit.
00:22:57
Speaker
It's like being on the school grounds the first day of school at a new place. Like you got to go up to people and ask if they want to play with you. Totally. And I do something sort of funny. I do do this outside of writing.
00:23:08
Speaker
and think the most frequent place I do this is architecture. hi I love architecture. It has nothing to do with my life. I'd never studied it. I'd never pursued it. I'm not interested in having a path in it. I just find it fascinating.
00:23:22
Speaker
And I have lived in enough places to see a lot of interesting houses, and I will look them up online by the address to find the person who owns it, to find the person who designed it, to find the architect of the house, and then I will write to the architecture firm to thank them for building something interesting. I do this anytime I find a house I think is really cool because I feel like so many houses are so boring.
00:23:47
Speaker
And so when someone is getting to do the work of like making something beautiful in the landscape, I'm like, that was awesome. Thank you. And so I write to those places and me, it's no stakes.
00:23:58
Speaker
I get nothing out of it. I'm never hiring an architect. That is not the lifestyle that I live. And so there's no expectation. There's no desire for a relationship. It's just me being like, hey, I saw your art and he thought it was great.
00:24:10
Speaker
And so I like to practice that gratitude on people that I'm not hoping to build a relationship, hoping to learn from, hoping to be friends with. Because I do, feel the stakes in writing.
00:24:21
Speaker
I know everyone wants to be in community, but also some people, people don't. Some people get so many of those emails that they don't reply. And I know that, you know, there are times when my ego can be sensitive enough to be like, oh, God, I embarrassed myself. I'm a fool. I should have never said anything.
00:24:38
Speaker
But putting myself out there in context where it like truly doesn't affect my career at all, I find really satisfying to just say thanks to people who make beautiful stuff.
Using Compliments to Build Connections
00:24:47
Speaker
I mean, you can do that with like good restaurants. You could do it with music. Like go wild.
00:24:51
Speaker
People love it. People love a compliment. People love a compliment. I emailed an author named Amy Berry and she lives in Australia. She wrote this really cute series, the Bride Brothers series. And then I read all of her other books and she's a fantastic writer. And I love stories told in the Old West anyway, because I grew up in the desert. So I have an affinity for those stories.
00:25:14
Speaker
And my mom and I just consumed all of her books. And so I wrote her an email and I said, I love your books. I really hoping this one character gets her own book. And she wrote me back and she was so nice and thankful for the note. And I feel like spreading gratitude always pays back in dividends, even if you don't ever hear from that person and they may or may not read your email. I think it's a good idea.
00:25:38
Speaker
i do feel like It's kind of like learning a new language when you're trying to break into writing communities and and find your way. You kind of have to not be afraid of sounding dumb a little bit.
00:25:53
Speaker
Otherwise, you're going to be for it. Yeah, or no one's ever goingnna know who you are. i mean, there is this side of this where it's like trying to have relationships with people is putting your name out there. You know, in many ways, it is like trying to get a job. We are trying to get the job of novelists.
00:26:09
Speaker
And when you're trying to get any kind of job, you're emailing companies and you're emailing people asking if you can have... introductory calls with them, if you can learn how they did it.
00:26:20
Speaker
That is part of it. Humans know that. And if you are afraid to send these emails because you're like, it feels kind of icky. ah I'm trying to think of a good analogy for it. And all I could think of was like, pots and pans are kind of icky after dinner, but like it doesn't stop us from cooking on them.
00:26:36
Speaker
Like, just get out there and make something. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. the way that I look at it, what's at the back of every book that you read? The acknowledgements.
00:26:49
Speaker
And how many names are in those acknowledgements? Probably like 30 to 40. always think that when I'm reading through those, and I always read the acknowledgements because I'm always interested in is this writer's agent?
00:27:03
Speaker
with yeah Who is their editor? Where did they study? Who are their mentors? And there are literally... no fewer than probably 20 names in those acknowledgments. It takes e village to raise a novelist.
00:27:20
Speaker
It takes so many people. You you have the cheerleaders in your corner. You have your first readers. Kelton, you read my book. you know i had a girl that I went to college with that studied neuroscience read my book because i was like,
00:27:35
Speaker
Does the science in this book make sense or do I sound really dumb? Her name's going in my acknowledgments. You know, you are writing a book, you need a lot of help. No one writes a book in a shed in the middle of the desert.
00:27:49
Speaker
Maybe they do, but they don't get it published that way, you know? Yeah, you need to get out of the shed to get it published. You might write it there, but it's not it's not hitting shelves from there.
00:28:01
Speaker
Get out of the shed. but Yeah, and I think in terms of building a platform, i should talk a little a bit about it because I've done it twice now, three times. I built a Tumblr following in 2010, and then I built my Instagram following 2010.
00:28:18
Speaker
2015 and then Substack in 2021. So different platforms, different types of audiences. And the key i have found, the keys to building on any platform are consistency and community.
00:28:30
Speaker
You have to be consistent both in your publishing schedule and what people can expect of you. And then you have to engage with the community. You can be writing something incredible.
00:28:43
Speaker
And if you don't engage with anyone, no one's going to find it. Maybe you're the one lucky duck. But so don't count on ever being the lucky one. Like count on the hard work working because it can, but it requires consistency.
00:28:57
Speaker
And that's what I've done on all three platforms is like, this is the thing I'm writing about. This is who I am as a person. This is when you're going to see it.
Consistency in Platform Building
00:29:05
Speaker
And then from there, you go out and you read other people's stuff and you share their stuff and you comment on their platform.
00:29:13
Speaker
You use your platform to lift them up. Now, typically when you're doing that, obviously the dream is like, I'm going to have 500 subscribers and I'm going to reach out to Ann Patchett to interview her and she's going to say yes and then she's going to share the interview on her platform to millions of people and then all those millions will immediately subscribe to me.
00:29:35
Speaker
And it's like, nope, doesn't work that way. Like you want to be helping your peers. Because your peers are who you're going to be working with the most in that community as time goes on, as you build your platform, as you build your career.
00:29:51
Speaker
and so it's like, pull them up with you. And so I try to come up with ways. I'm launching a new series on my newsletter soon that does feature other people. And like the nice thing is that like one person It alleviates some of the work I have to do on my end because they're doing some of the writing.
00:30:08
Speaker
And then two, most of those people will share that on their own platforms and drag back the mind. And we create this little circle where we're just sharing each other and we're spinning and spinning and spinning until we're all just flung up high into the atmosphere of success.
00:30:22
Speaker
And I think the hard part about that is that it takes so long. And there are so many times when you're going to put out work that doesn't feel like it moves the needle at all.
00:30:34
Speaker
It's like, you know, every time you nail a board together, like it's not a house for a while. You're like, I'm out here nailing by myself every day just another nail and a board.
00:30:46
Speaker
and you know, every once in while, you're like, oh, my God, look, there's a wall. built a wall. Holy shit. But it's like it is slow going in between those. And that is where a lot of people drop off on the consistency because it's it doesn't have the validation. It doesn't have that reward system baked into it.
00:31:04
Speaker
So ah that I would just say is the the only thing I can recommend is like Bake in your own validation. Bake it in. How do you bake in your own validation, Kelton? How do you do that?
00:31:15
Speaker
That's hard. I think you've got to love what you're writing. I think as soon as you start writing in a way where you're like, oh, this is going to go viral. then you're entering some murky waters.
00:31:26
Speaker
You cannot see your feet in those waters. And I don't recommend that because of that you can like feel when those things are sticky and false. There's this huge trend on Substack Notes right now um where it kind of feels like LinkedIn, where everyone is like growth hacking notes.
00:31:43
Speaker
It's like five ways to make sure your next note goes viral. And Substack is a snobby enough community that they're like, get this dreck off of my feed.
00:31:54
Speaker
But it has been working for some people. And it just you're like, oh, I can tell what you're doing. I know that this is written in a way to like get me to share it instead of you just being like, this is the interesting thing I'm thinking about.
00:32:09
Speaker
And maybe there is some element of having to share, but if you're baking it on your own, then you're doing it because you love it. And you're reaching out to people because you genuinely find their work interesting, not because they have a big platform.
00:32:23
Speaker
And you're building relationships with people that you want to have ah friendship with, not a transaction with. I don't know that it's tough to tell people that because, you know, everyone wants to succeed. And you're like, how do I find these people I want to be friends with?
00:32:40
Speaker
And it takes so much time. Like I would say I'm at three and a half years of writing on Substack. And I would say just in the last six months, did I really find people on that platform that I was like, wow, I feel like I have some friends here.
00:32:55
Speaker
i feel like I have community on this platform. And it took a while.
00:33:01
Speaker
Yeah, and it just goes back to what we were saying. I think it was in the first episode when we were talking about the joy of writing and not doing things for validation. But the fact is that even outside of building community, the writing that you're doing, all of the work that you're putting into becoming a writer, it takes so long.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yeah. You really have to want it and it has to be integral to your identity and and the thing that makes you who you are and brings you joy. Because if you were to quit and stop doing it tomorrow and walk away from it and not feel like you've lost anything, then maybe you're in it for the wrong reasons, right?
00:33:48
Speaker
i I don't know, but but for me, i definitely feel different when I'm not writing, when I'm letting the world get in the way of the writing that I know that I'm supposed to be doing. I feel, i think, you know I get depressed.
00:34:03
Speaker
So I, I do think that thinking about building community is just part of your writing journey, I think is the way that you have to think about it and find other people to commune with and, and struggle alongside.
Public vs. Network Approaches to Community Building
00:34:19
Speaker
And I think you and I have shown that you can take two different avenues. I have taken a very public avenue to do that. I am out there kind of waving my flag on the internet every day, just being like, who wants to know me?
00:34:30
Speaker
Who wants to be pals? And you are taking classes and going to workshops and building relationships that way. So it can be done either way. Like the platform versus network.
00:34:43
Speaker
I think both have their use cases. Obviously, the platform, as we mentioned, it's like you can list your followers and your places in your query letter. But you can also, there's ways to do that with a network as well. be like, I was hanging out with this author and she pointed me toward this YouTube series that you host. And I was really enamored with the way you talked about so-and-so and like you can be of the community and talk about that because it helps too if you are ah writer to have other author friends who are like write your blurb to announce you on their social feeds because you're a pal of theirs so there's there's benefits to both type of networks i think that the takeaway is that you either way you need one either way
00:35:31
Speaker
You need friends. Have you read the book Rufy Thorpe's Margo's Got Money Troubles? I have. One of the core tenets, and I highly recommend that book, I love that book, I also love Rufy Thorpe, is the idea that to succeed, you kind of need buddies.
00:35:48
Speaker
You need buddies to lift you up. And I think that is true in in most craft and other fields. It's like if you're making something that's hard to get out in the world, then you need a pal or two.
00:36:03
Speaker
Yeah, I mean... think about it Frodo did not make that journey on his own it's the hero journey you have to have your pals alongside you who help you take the hard knocks of life and give you perspective and point you back in the right direction when you want to go down the wrong path it's really helpful to have someone, especially other writers, be able to give you words and of encouragement or just tell you to wake the fuck up, get out of your own way, you know, get out of the house or kick everyone out of the house so you can get some writing done. It's just it it's almost like having those people in your life remind you to give yourself permission to keep doing this thing because it's very easy to convince yourself
00:36:53
Speaker
to stop. It is, you know, think about when you're running, like your whole body's like, stop running, stop running. Everything hurts. Stop running. It'll be so nice when you stop running. Why don't you just stop right now? You can just sit down in the pavement and die.
00:37:09
Speaker
but oh Running is really your sport, Chris Erin. Listen, I ran a lot during the pandemic and I really loved it. I have terrible feet and i was a track athlete in high school and college, but I ran really fast for a very short amount of time.
00:37:22
Speaker
And so a distance running was always a struggle for me. i know people love it. I have a friend who's training for a marathon and she actually wrote, she has a substack. She wrote about how she stopped listening to music while she was running. And I cannot think of a bigger nightmare than being alone with my thoughts while my body is scritching at me for any length of time.
00:37:42
Speaker
It is something that I think requires a lot of mental fortitude. And there is a reason why people use the metaphor that writing a novel is like running a marathon because it really, it is painful, but also so rewarding at the end of Yeah. And I think, you know, if we're talking about different race distances, we should talk about the fact that there are different platforms and you should think about which one you want to dedicate your time to.
00:38:07
Speaker
If making TikToks feels like a nightmare, it's not your platform. Like, you don't waste all of your creative energy on something that is going to be torturous and not work.
00:38:19
Speaker
There are reasons some people succeed on long form newsletters and some people succeed with short form on blue sky or whatever Twitter is called that day. And there are places in the middle that you can succeed. So try your platforms out.
00:38:35
Speaker
Go into them without expecting success. Go into them being like, do I like doing this? Because it is another type of art that you are making. And if you don't like making that art, you shouldn't be making it, regardless of whether you need a platform.
Networking in Writing Communities
00:38:51
Speaker
Have a website, have a presence, but don't pour your all into it if you're just pouring it into a bucket with holes. Do you think there's still a world in which people, I mean, I used to read a lot of author blogs back in the day and it really felt like an intimate place to get to know an author and understand where they're coming from and they're not these super long form things, but are people still reading blogs?
00:39:17
Speaker
Have you read a newsletter? i read your newsletter twice a week. Listen, there's a reason Substack is so successful and it's because the youth yearn for blogs. I think that you people are never going to get tired of reading the intimate details of someone else's life.
00:39:33
Speaker
We love that shit. We have always loved that shit. We will continue to love that shit because we're humans and we're gossipy, curious, lonely, sad little creatures that are like, are you as weird as I am?
00:39:46
Speaker
And like when you find someone who shares your weird, you're like, whoo, whoo. I was going to worry for a second there. human curiosity will continue to win no matter what platforms are available to us.
00:40:00
Speaker
So find the one that works for you or go the back route and start taking classes and start saying hi. Start asking people to play with you because at the end of the day, you know, the query letter, it's going to help if you have connections or a platform.
00:40:18
Speaker
Definitely. When I was writing my query letter, I wrote all of the teachers that I studied with, all of the classes that I took, all of the workshops that I attended and who mentored me in those workshops.
00:40:30
Speaker
And having those names of authors, that it's like having equity. It's like putting money in the bank because they understand that you are a serious writer, that you have studied, that you have a network of some sort.
Chris's AWP Conference Plans
00:40:43
Speaker
Having any type of following, any type of number that you can put behind your name, i definitely think it's going to make people more likely to take a chance on you when they are considering your book.
00:40:58
Speaker
I'm actually going to be attending AWP this year because it's in Los Angeles. Tell the people about AWP. So
00:41:07
Speaker
so AWP stands for the Association of Writers in Writing Programs. They have a conference and book fair every year and it moves around the country.
00:41:18
Speaker
And I think last year it was in Kansas City, Missouri, and this year it's in Los Angeles. And I've always wanted to go. it is a multiple day conference that has lots of panel discussions. They also have a big book fair that occurs on the floor that is attended by publishers and agents and authors. So you get an opportunity if you want to go up and ask people to play with you in real life, I guess. it' So I'm already like feeling the anxiety of
00:41:51
Speaker
figuring out if I'm going to navigate this event. But there are so many good panels and so many good panels for people who are trying to break into publishing. There is a panel on networks and platforms, which I will attend. There's panels on self-publishing, querying. And then there's a lot of panels on subject matter that I find interesting. There's one on the Filipino diaspora that I'm really excited to go and attend. so I will come back and share what I've learned from that event. But it will be a interesting to see and hear from agents how they feel about platforms and what they're looking for and if they consider it at all. And well I will report back what I learned.
00:42:34
Speaker
I can't wait. I can't wait. I wish I was going. Come to LA. You can stay at my house. I mean, I would love to. i would love to. I could get up at 5 a.m. with you every day. I'll make you cup of tea, non-caffeinated tea.
00:42:53
Speaker
i You're a dream. all right. I think that we should talk about what our goals are for next week. Yes. All right, Chris, Erin. I think I can tell you what my goals for this next week are.
00:43:06
Speaker
i still have my novel class for which I have to share a scene. and so I have to choose my scene soon. i have this inclination to choose a good scene, but I'm like, nah, babe, choose one that needs help.
00:43:19
Speaker
Be vulnerable. know, put yourself out there with these people. I got to choose my scene. And I would like to up the ante and do four hours this week. And I would like to put the scenes I have similar to how you did on a spreadsheet. I want to get them up on post-it notes on the wall.
00:43:41
Speaker
So that is my goal is four hours. I'm not doing a word count this week. I'm going to follow in the tradition of Chris Aaron and see if this loosens some things up since I kind of know, kind of know the scenes I want to write.
00:43:54
Speaker
So I'm not that concerned about actually getting writing going. And then I want to get the, yeah, I want to get all my scenes separated onto post-it notes and on a wall so that I can move them around and see where that feels like there's a gap for me.
00:44:10
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. I didn't do post-its or note cards because I feel like I'm going to lose them.
Networking in Writing Classes
00:44:18
Speaker
but So I put it in a spreadsheet, but it's effectively the same thing. It's a digital postcard of sorts. So I have a question for you.
00:44:27
Speaker
I've been made friends with anyone in the class that you're taking.
00:44:33
Speaker
No. And let pick your brain about this, because the person hosting this class has not set up any functionality for us to know one another.
00:44:44
Speaker
We are BCC'd on the email. There isn't like a Slack group. There's no forum. And so I was talking to Ben about this. I was like, I want to know some of these people. I like some of these people.
00:44:56
Speaker
Should I email the host of the class and ask if we could start like a thread for the participants? Just because the problem is there's two classes left. It feels like a little, it's too small, too short, too late to be like, let's form relationships.
00:45:14
Speaker
But I just feel like it's a missed opportunity to not know some of these people more because I like some of them. Yeah. Well, is it on Zoom, this class?
00:45:25
Speaker
Yeah. So you can DM people in the chat on Zoom. Yes, yes. All this mass email, mass message everyone in the chat on Zoom. Like, hey, I really want to keep in touch with everybody.
00:45:39
Speaker
Could everyone just drop their emails in the chat and I'll start an email thread. If you don't feel comfortable doing that or if you want to ask a teacher, I'm sure she would be completely open to allowing everyone to share their information with one another. So I highly encourage you to do so.
00:45:59
Speaker
Thank you. Perhaps I will do that this
Writing Goals and Podcast Conclusion
00:46:01
Speaker
week. right Absolutely. i went almost, and want to say three quarters of the way through my last class when I found out that some of my classmates had ah text thread.
00:46:14
Speaker
And I have an Android phone too, but they did. And now they message so often. it's incredible because the program is, you know, it's not a cheap program. It's not super expensive for graduate programs as they stand, but there are some nightmare professors and I'm so glad you just need this information. This is information we all need to know. So I was so grateful to be a part of the group chat. And then After the first class of my current class, she put us in little groups to talk about the assignment. And I got paired with these two women who I wanted to talk to. and i was like, give me your emails.
00:46:49
Speaker
Give me your phone numbers. I'm going text you right now. So I started it early, you know, and in are it's incredibly helpful because, you know, sometimes someone says something really dumb in a workshop and you want to be like,
00:47:00
Speaker
did you hear what that person just said? Yes. Or, or it's like, when is that assignment due? Or I'm confused. Or could you guys just look at my paper really quick? You need help. Everyone needs help. It's so much better to have friends. So I'm glad to hear that, you know,
00:47:15
Speaker
your you're going to do that because I think it's, it would almost be like you you didn't take full advantage of the class if you didn't reach out to those people. I agree. So I will add that to my goals. yeah Make a friend in class.
00:47:27
Speaker
Make friend. Okay. Well, my goals for this week, I kind of have a... big audacious goal that it's not a weekly goal but i want to finish the first draft of this book by april 1st that is my goal so i'm going to continue to march toward that goal and i'm at 65 000 words right now so i want to get to about 80 I don't love all some of them or just whole cloth chapters pulled from old drafts put into the news. So I've got to fix those. But that's my goal is to get this book done, at least the first draft by April 1st.
00:48:12
Speaker
know That's a but ah month and a week. Yeah. Wow. Good for you. i mean, I also have a big, ugly goal of finishing my first draft by May 26th.
00:48:24
Speaker
So i don't know if that's going to happen. It feels unlikely, but I feel you on ah having a big audacious goal to just loom over you like the moon.
00:48:36
Speaker
Like the moon. You're controlling the waves of life. The ocean of your body.
00:48:46
Speaker
Yeah, I just, I feel like I can do it and it needs to be done. And that is what I'm going to focus on. So I don't really have a weekly goal this week.
00:48:56
Speaker
I'm going to continue to wake up at five. really love it. I feel like I'm getting a jump on the world. So I've been waking up at five, writing for an hour and a half or more. And then I go outside after I'm done writing, before I wake up my kids, when the sun is coming up and I just like breathe in the cold air, shake my body around a little bit. And I just feel like everything else the rest of the day is going to be fantastic.
00:49:24
Speaker
And today on the way home from dropping my kids off from school, I saw a white cream on the side of the road. And I feel like that was just a sign. That's a good omen.
00:49:39
Speaker
A good auspicious sign that things are going well for me. so i feel like I need to knock on wood. But that's my goal. Amazing.
00:49:50
Speaker
I can't wait to hear more about it and more about your crane friend stalking you and your success. This was awesome. Good to see you as always. Chris Aaron, I feel motivated, ready to claw my way out of the coffin of unproductivity. We look forward to seeing you guys here next week. You know what to do with the podcast.
00:50:10
Speaker
Subscribe to it. Please rate it five stars. You can rate it four stars too, but anything lower than that, just scoot along. We don't need that here. And write to us. Chris Aaron, where can the people write to us? OfficialPenPalsPod at gmail.com. Please write to us. I love reading your emails.
00:50:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. If you have something you want us to bring up, obviously we'd love to hear it. So we will see you same time, same place next week. Happy writing. Happy writing.