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The Art of Taking a Punch
139 Plays2 months ago
In this episode of Pen Pals, Krisserin and Kelton navigate the treacherous waters of writing workshops and editing, trading war stories about feedback that made them stronger (or at least made them cry in their cars). While Krisserin advocates for the safety of structured workshops and multiple drafts, Kelton embraces the wild west of publishing personal essays straight into the void - death threats and all. The friends set new goals: Kelton plans to leverage her in-laws' babysitting powers for seven solid hours of writing, while Krisserin commits to 5AM writing sessions (with accountability texts to prove it.
Get in contact with us at: officialpenpalspod@gmail.com
Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Weather Talk
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, Chris, Aaron. Hey, Kelton.
00:00:04
Speaker
How are you? It looks like the sun is shining in beautiful California. So I'd love to say this to you considering you're in Colorado, but it is fucking cold.
00:00:16
Speaker
And when I say cold, I mean, i was just outside. It was, I think, 44 degrees and I was freezing. That is cold. Well, you also don't have the wardrobe. This is a key factor.
00:00:30
Speaker
Most of my wardrobe is wool. but is it What's the saying? There's no bad weather, just bad clothing, right? Yeah, that is a ah Norwegian saying in origin. And they have it down to a science.
Writing Goals and Character Development
00:00:44
Speaker
They have down, down to the science. Okay. I'm Chris Aaron Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novel. From first drops to query letters. Through inevitable rejection. And hopefully eventual success.
00:00:58
Speaker
From California to Colorado. This is Pen Pals. You've been locked in a cabin with two men for too long, Kelton. I was live editing what I was saying, okay? I was like, there's an opportunity for a cute little pun here. We're going to stick it in there.
00:01:12
Speaker
I love it. I love it. Well, tell me, we had some goals that we talked about last week. How did you do? did mediocre. Remind ourselves, because you had like a, if I'm remembering correctly, a pathetic goal, ah medium goal, and then a reach goal. so This is accurate. My pathetic goal was the one I got. My pathetic goal was 300. interim goal was 2000 my big reach 5000. But got 500, 497 to be exact. And did other stuff that had do.
00:01:41
Speaker
that i got five hundred four hundred and ninety seven to be ex exactc and i did other stuff that i had to do I am taking ah class that starts on
Reflections on Meeting Writing Goals
00:01:53
Speaker
Sunday. it is a plot class with Lee Stein, who is a novelist, works in publishing, and has a substat called Attention Economy, where she talks a lot about the publishing industry.
00:02:07
Speaker
And she is leading this plot course, and I had homework for it, part of which was watching the entire second season of Fleabag, And what a trial. so shot priest Are you kidding me? Not priest was as good or if not better than I remembered. And then I also had to read the first three chapters of anatomy of a story and do a little character development for the novel. So I did extra work on it, but did not hit the supreme word goal. I just hit the baby, the
Chris's Writing Routine and Challenges
00:02:37
Speaker
pathetic one. And I felt good in my patheticness.
00:02:43
Speaker
I hate that you call it that, but I'm happy that you're happy. You
00:02:49
Speaker
um want the disappointed dad and I'm just going to gentle parent you to death. I know. I'm like, be mad at me. Oh man. And how was your goal?
00:03:00
Speaker
My goal was to try and sit down and write for two hours every day. And I have come to realize that is actually very difficult to do. One hour is very, for me, achievable because i think like around the 40 minute mark is when my brain starts to get distracted and I feel like I need a break and I need to get up and get a cup of tea or pet the dog, whatever it may be, and then go back into a second round. Sometimes it's hard to get back on track after that first 40 minutes, but I pretty much did write for at least an hour every day, sometimes more than two hours. So I feel like setting aside at least an hour every single day
00:03:43
Speaker
to produce work is a good regular achievable goal for me. ah would love to do more if I can.
Balancing Writing with Family Duties
00:03:50
Speaker
So I think between one and two. And that's why I'm wondering if time spent is a good goal for you, Kelton, because it seems like you're, well, no only only because you're doing um a lot of work.
00:04:04
Speaker
work on your book that is not generative, right? It is research outlining and things that aren't leading up to your word count goal, but our work that should not be discounted and should be credited because it is an achievement that you were able to do those things.
00:04:20
Speaker
Yeah, but it's also something I've done for the last 10 years without producing the novel. I do so much background work. And that is what I am trying to get away from is the weeds.
00:04:33
Speaker
I am trying to stand up in the field of my novel and just build some structures and worry about the weeds later. Yeah. So, but I do hear you on blocking out time to do the writing. I did want to ask if your hour or two hours a day were always at the same time, or if you, do you put them on the calendar?
00:04:57
Speaker
Do you tell your husband, don't talk to me in this hour? How are you taking that time? i mean, I generally tell my husband not to talk to me.
00:05:12
Speaker
Because I set it as a goal, um I did put two hour blocks on my calendar and
Workshopping Experiences and Feedback
00:05:18
Speaker
I was able to map out two hours Monday through Thursday.
00:05:23
Speaker
And Friday's a little bit more wily for me, but then on the weekends, i just made it a priority to sit down and do the work for as long as I possibly could. Those are the days when I was able to actually work for longer than two hours.
00:05:36
Speaker
To answer your question, I prefer to write in the afternoon. There's something about the morning for me because I'm getting up, I'm taking the kids to school. I've been in the car. The world has imprinted upon me already.
00:05:49
Speaker
And I feel like once I've gotten through the day, picked the kids up from school, gotten back, had ah very strong espresso, i can... put everything away and just focus on writing.
00:06:02
Speaker
But that being said, i wrote the first draft of this novel 2012. And twenty twelve
00:06:09
Speaker
I did that in the morning. I did it very early in the morning. I woke up at 5 a.m. m and wrote it for a couple of hours and I want to try doing that this next week. I want to try getting up early, which is very difficult for me because I am a night owl and i like to stay up late and read and I like to sleep in when I can, but I'm going to try and do that this week. I got this guideline from Amy Bender. This was how she would write every morning, the first two hours of the morning, she would get up when her brain was fresh.
00:06:37
Speaker
And nothing has entered her mind that could pollute her mind besides the work that she was doing. I love it. Let's get into what we're talking about this week. We're talking about editing and workshopping.
00:06:49
Speaker
i have not done a lot of workshopping and ha ha ha, I don't do a lot of editing. Yeah. We have a ah lot to talk about my bad habits this week, but I want to start with ah talking about what workshopping means and your experience with workshopping. Not everybody takes that approach with their writing. Not everybody's had the opportunity to be workshopped.
00:07:12
Speaker
So tell me like I don't know anything, which, you know, as you can tell, I don't. Yeah. I think that it's really important. When I first started seriously working on story and novel writing, I made the mistake of giving my book to people who I should have never asked to read it.
00:07:35
Speaker
complete manuscript. ah Sections of a manuscript, definitely complete manuscript. And these are people that i met who i had worked with, who I knew were writers or know themselves working on books.
00:07:50
Speaker
And I think that when you are in a workshop, a formal workshop, There are parameters that should, if the workshop leader is a good one, I've had good and bad workshop leaders, create a safe space for sharing work and feedback and critique.
00:08:07
Speaker
Now, when I first started out, I gave my book to people who I thought were going to give me good, helpful feedback and cris critiques and criticisms. And they just ripped me apart.
00:08:19
Speaker
Absolutely. Ripped my book apart. And to be fair, the book that I had them read is now in a drawer and will be burned upon my death. But I think that the job that we have as writers, as a community of writers, is yes, always to give helpful, encouraging feedback, but ultimately to encourage people to keep going because it is so hard to write, period,
Choosing the Right Feedback
00:08:44
Speaker
full stop. It is so difficult to write a book.
00:08:46
Speaker
You do put a lot of your your soul and your personality and your history and all of these things that make you who you are into your writing. And when you give that bit of vulnerability to somebody else who is not working in your best interest, who doesn't know how to give helpful feedback, you can really get into a situation where you are so discouraged and so disheartened. And if you keep writing and you send your book out, you're going to get rejections and all of these people who are telling you to stop and don't, and you're not good enough, or you'll tell yourself those things. So you have to be very careful.
00:09:21
Speaker
about who you give your book to Do not give it to your like or your friend that you think is in your best interest because you don't know what they're bringing to it. And unless they are a seasoned um reader and writer and know how to give feedback, it can be dangerous for you. So I think that is the thing that I always caution people because I made that mistake and it was only through my internal fuck you nature that I was like, I'm going to keep doing this.
00:09:45
Speaker
And I'm going to keep going because it was important to me, right? But you don't want to get stopped before you start. That's my first bit of advice. And then, yeah, I've done a lot of workshopping. And the way that it typically will work is that you have a writing sample of determined length, whether it is five to eight to 10 to 20 pages that you will submit. but Depending on who's leading the workshop, it might have directed feedback. Like this is the type of thing that we're looking for
Workshop Dynamics and Leadership
00:10:12
Speaker
that we want to give feedback on. Or you could say, these are the things I'm struggling with, or you just give it and then get feedback back.
00:10:18
Speaker
And then what you typically will get is line edit where, and that's not fix my grammar. That's this word is a little awkward or I'm unclear about what you're trying to say here.
00:10:30
Speaker
Or, Ooh, I really like this sentence. And whenever I do line edits, I try and outline the things that I love and the things that I'm struggling with. And then you'll get actual paragraphs of notes on things that you thought worked or didn't.
00:10:42
Speaker
who was in love of And here are the things that I think that you could improve upon. See, everything I write is great. Like my mom does like, this is fantastic. You're so smart. You're so brilliant and such great writer. And I'm like, yes, mom, tell me all the things.
00:10:56
Speaker
She's looking through the lens of love. Yes. ah You need that constructive paragraph because you want to believe that this person wants you to succeed and wants to help you. And that should be the environment of a workshop.
00:11:08
Speaker
That's a good workshop. I can tell you, I can go in length about what bad workshops look like. Yeah, I mean, I think I have an idea. When I took screenwriting at UCLA, my professor was really useful. He would pull me aside after class and be like, what do you want to work on in this piece? And I can give you specific feedback on that.
00:11:28
Speaker
He's like, because this is the beginning of your first screenplay. There's a lot of stuff you don't know, but what is the part that you really want help figuring out? And I always appreciated that approach. And that is often what I'll take To the people I trust to read my writing in the rare times, I do want someone to look at it first.
00:11:46
Speaker
I will be like, I don't care what you think about these three things, but I want you to read this with the lens of the fourth thing, which I am troubled by. And inevitably, a lot of those people will be like, I do kind of want to say something about number two on your list.
00:12:02
Speaker
And oftentimes I'll just be like, yeah, cool. that Thank you for sharing that. That's as much workshopping as I've been doing lately. Have you been doing any workshopping? on the novel you're currently working on? This current novel is something that I did workshop parts of it in the past, like a decade ago. This new work that I'm producing is very new and I probably won't put it in front of anyone until the second draft is done.
Balancing Writing and Editing
00:12:31
Speaker
I don't think that you want anyone reading a spaghetti draft, which is your like zero draft. I don't think even the first draft is a good thing to have someone read unless you really feel like you're lost and you're like, I don't know if this character is more interesting than than that storyline. Like if you want big picture notes, you could do that.
00:12:52
Speaker
The way that I think about it is you you don't want to put work in front of people where they're going to point out things that you know are wrong, that you're like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm going to fix that later. But with all workshops, it's always, you did it innately without even having to have someone tell you this, but it's always take what's useful and really just throw away everything else that it's not.
00:13:10
Speaker
mr Opinions of people that... This is horrible. Opinions from people who's writing you don't respect usually go in the trash can. Sometimes they'll say things that will stick with me.
00:13:22
Speaker
We're in the moment. I would be like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. But then it'll come back to me my mind. like Damn it. Maybe. Maybe they were right about that one thing, you know. I do seek out other people to read my work, um I am bucketing them into I'm asking this person their opinion because they're a writer and I'm asking this person their opinion because they're a reader.
00:13:45
Speaker
And sometimes the writers, I will just be like, nope, today you're just a reader. And they'll call out things from that perspective that I find more interesting. But yeah, I do think you have to be pretty protective about the things that you do like about your work. It is art.
00:14:01
Speaker
You're not trying to build like an up to code building. You know, where it's like, no, this is the way you have to do it in order for it to stand. It is subjective. It's meant to be beautiful to you.
00:14:12
Speaker
And the ideally the goal, ah obviously, I would love to make millions off my writing, but I the feeling I get from money has still not achieved the status of the feeling I get when I write something that I fucking love.
00:14:28
Speaker
here I mean, and I just, I think I just haven't made enough money from writing, but maybe we can, we work on that part leveling up later.
Handling Feedback and Workshop Red Flags
00:14:38
Speaker
ah aspire to that level of jaded.
00:14:42
Speaker
Wouldn't that be nice? Wouldn't that be nice? Do you have any bad feedback stories, workshop stories?
00:14:54
Speaker
but I guess there was one moment when I did a pitch that someone called tone deaf. I had to sit with that for a week. And then I wrote back to her and I was like, you know, you didn't have to take the time to say that it was tone deaf. You could have just deleted it. That's what a lot of editors would have done. And instead you were cruel enough in your phrasing to make me think about my life for a while. And I think thinking about it made me a marginally better person.
00:15:22
Speaker
And so, you know, that kind of feedback, obviously, you will remember, but that wasn't bad feedback. It was feedback that made me feel like a terrible person, but it was good feedback.
00:15:35
Speaker
So, so i I can't, I can't say I didn't deserve it. Oh, man. I've had to give feedback like that before to someone where I was like, maybe you should consider... what you're having this character do and how fucked up it is actually.
00:15:51
Speaker
i think some people, when they're creating stories, they don't think about these things that people might have triggers for, that especially if they haven't lived through them. So I've done that. I've given that feedback before and you've got to do it very gently, but I'm glad she did it in a way that resonated with you where you could take it in. and Yeah, no, I need to be stabbed in the gut to to hear it.
00:16:11
Speaker
And she did that. She did it well. She stabbed, she twisted, she retracted, and we've never spoken again. And she let you bleed out. She let me bleed out on the floor. And I was like, cool. Okay, well, I'm just going to crawl into a cave and hope for the best.
00:16:27
Speaker
I think in terms of... Red flags to look out for in a workshop if someone is to go into one and it's their first time. i think that if you have a workshop leader that does not send out in advance or do an overview of what the rules of the workshop are, that's a huge problem.
00:16:51
Speaker
Because if you're coming into a workshop and there are a bunch of people who've never workshopped before, it's fair to say that they're not going to know what they should do, what their expectations are. It's just human nature. These aren't bad people. They just don't know what they don't know.
00:17:04
Speaker
And i had that experience in the last class that I took and I messaged the professor and i was like, Hey, I think we need some guardrails for what feedback is appropriate.
00:17:15
Speaker
And he responded immediately and sent it out and had everyone read it and write a response about it. And i was like, cool, that is really nice. And then when we went forward into the rest of the workshop,
00:17:27
Speaker
Everyone knew what they were supposed to do and what was expected. The second red flag is if you don't have a workshop leader who will actually step in when things are going left in in a feedback session and they just kind of like let someone dominate the room or say things that are not helpful or inappropriate. If someone is not guiding the conversation in a helpful way, that's definitely a red flag.
00:17:52
Speaker
I had that experience with my own work and I just disassociated during that workshop session. I just shut down and went to my car afterwards and sobbed. So that was great. Now that I'm older and wiser and have more experience, I probably with a very like hard pounding heart, shaking hands would have said something.
00:18:13
Speaker
But I think that's the thing to take away from workshop discussion is look for a workshop leader who is going to create a safe space and help you get what you want out of it. Because usually you're paying for this, you know, work.
00:18:28
Speaker
And it is something that you shouldn't take lightly.
Vulnerability in Workshops vs. Public Writing
00:18:31
Speaker
I've also, but I think the third, actually one more red flag, you one more red flag. Typically you should try and and attend a workshop from someone who understands your work or reads the type of things that you are writing. You want someone who has enough understanding of the themes that you're talking about even to help you because yeah they don't and they're just going left on things. it's super unhelpful.
00:18:54
Speaker
But anyway, that's my workshop. It's almost the same as who your eventual readers are too. It's like your reader is not everybody. That would be strange and unachievable for many reasons.
00:19:07
Speaker
You want to find people that are going to understand your themes so that they're not looking at the wrong stuff when they're editing. Outside of taking classes, I've not gone to a workshop. I go to retreats mainly.
00:19:20
Speaker
And sometimes I know that the writer there leading it will be incredible for my progress in the piece. And then sometimes I know that I'm going for inspiration and friendship.
00:19:31
Speaker
And I think, you know, similar to a workshop, you got to know what you're going in for. and you got to have an idea of who's going to be there to guide it. Yeah, I think actually, if you have time and money and you can get into but retreat or do some sort of workshop like Tin House, usually they have really talented writers who are coming to those events to teach, whether it's short story or poetry or nonfiction or fiction.
00:19:56
Speaker
That's an incredible opportunity. And you know that those people, because they are seasoned writers and people that want to help and encourage other writers are going to be really helpful for you. Yeah.
00:20:07
Speaker
I wanted to ah circle back to you use the word of vulnerability in a workshop.
Editing Fiction vs. Newsletters
00:20:13
Speaker
And you and I had previously talked about how every week I kind of pour my soul out into my sub stack to thousands of people and just say whatever i want.
00:20:27
Speaker
And you had said you like could never be that vulnerable, but you are paying to be vulnerable in workshops. I'm just being but vulnerable for free. Just, you know, I'm sure there's an analogy about the cow in there somewhere, but so what do you think it is about paying for it that protects it?
00:20:46
Speaker
That's a great question. I think what you do every week is very different than when you're putting your work in front of people and you have to look at them as they tell you what they like and don't like. you To be fair, you send out your newsletter into the void and then some people do comment on your sub stacks. I have done it, which is great.
00:21:05
Speaker
you... ah you hits, I'm imagining Kelton hits send, closes her laptop, and then she goes and plays in the mountains somewhere and she can kind of disconnect. And your newsletter is your stories about your life and the things that you're mulling over. And you don't need feedback from people on that.
00:21:23
Speaker
Like they take it or they leave it. And that is it. Whereas in a workshop, I'm saying, tell me how to be better. Tell me what you liked. Tell me what you didn't like.
00:21:34
Speaker
Tell me I'm brilliant and amazing and I'm going to win a Pulitzer. i mean um That's what I'm really looking for. and news press When you press send, or in my case, you press schedule, you do still get those comments.
Personal Essays and Critique
00:21:47
Speaker
I do still get emails from people. who are like, well, I think blah, blah, blah, blah. And back in the day when I had a dating blog and I just ah sent it out into the world, I got death threats.
00:21:59
Speaker
um When you're writing about your life, the feedback is on your life. It's not always about your writing. People are like, great writing, but you're a slut.
00:22:10
Speaker
but um So it's just like a different kind of feedback. But i doing that, like I will say I would workshop my life when people had feedback on what I wrote, because what I was writing about was myself and how I live.
00:22:26
Speaker
Back when it was a dating blog, I felt a personal responsibility to be courageous and to be forthright with people. And so I became a better person because people were critiquing my person.
00:22:40
Speaker
And now most of what I write about is slow living and ethics of... being in a small town and things like that. And when people do contribute in that way about my life, you know, where it's actually plastic doesn't get recycled in this way. And have you ever thought about how road base affects the ecosystem around the road? And I'm learning about those sorts of things now. That's the feedback I get.
00:23:04
Speaker
But it is feedback on how I'm living, not on how I'm writing, which is really different. and is the burden of the personal essay.
Editing and Writing Approaches
00:23:11
Speaker
As you would know from like a cat person and things like that, it's everybody was quick to critique the author on her life, but they were quick to critique because everybody had read it because the writing was so good.
00:23:26
Speaker
so it's you're just opening yourself up to a different kind of workshopping when your writing is personal essay, personal essay, I should say. All writing is personal, but... Fair enough.
00:23:38
Speaker
Fair enough. Well, I would love to talk a little bit about editing because you say you don't do any
00:23:46
Speaker
Every week when we chat, I'm shocked by how different we are how we work.
00:23:52
Speaker
I'll talk a little bit about the editing process for the newsletter. The premise of the newsletter, like I just covered slow living, mountain town, small town, and I send it every Sunday and Wednesday. Wednesday goes to paid subscribers only.
00:24:06
Speaker
That is not a lot of time when you have ah three jobs and a baby and a life. i'm like, what else am I doing? Oh, a podcast.
00:24:17
Speaker
is And I know that I will probably not get to write the piece for this week until Saturday and it goes out on Sunday. so they there just isn't a lot of time for editing. I will edit though if I am writing about town politics.
00:24:36
Speaker
That is the one area of my newsletter that I do reread and adjust because people who live here read the newsletter. And I want to be careful not to misrepresent.
00:24:48
Speaker
I will drag somebody if I'm accurately factually dragging them. You know, I'm not afraid to do that. If it's like, because it's my opinion that is dragging them.
00:24:59
Speaker
I'm not going to be like this person's a bitch, but i am going to be like, this person voted against letting animals live in our community. My, ah my husband is always like, ah do you think someone's going to know that this is about them?
00:25:12
Speaker
And I'm like, If they know that this is about them, I think that's okay. I'm just writing about what's happening. I try with politics to keep it, local politics, to keep it as an unbiased journalist.
00:25:27
Speaker
i you know I don't think I'm always successful. I'm a quite opinionated person, um but I'll edit those pieces. I wanna be careful about how I represent people, and that is important to me, to be respectful and kind.
00:25:39
Speaker
And so I will edit with that in regard. But if I'm writing about My experience with the C-section or something. I'm not worried about editing it. It's my experience.
00:25:50
Speaker
And I'll go back for lyricism. I'll go back for making sure used the word right. I often, when I'm speaking, use a word that kind of sounds like the word I mean, and then i I'm not using the right one. Ben is constantly correcting me.
00:26:05
Speaker
He has a whole list of Keltonisms where I've just botched idioms and cliches from all of history. But that's what I look for. i don't do wholesale edits on pieces for the news.
00:26:19
Speaker
What about your fiction though? For fiction, I do edit. So within Scrivener, i will i leave myself notes a lot of times. Like one of the and things I was writing this week was ah a flashback. i don't know what else to call it. it was so when she was younger. And I specified which birthday of hers it was on. And I left myself a note that was like,
00:26:43
Speaker
check for consistency later in the ages. And then i as I had been doing some of this prep work for the plot course, i realized that I had certain characters be intimate too soon.
00:26:56
Speaker
And so I went back and and edited that scene just to get it out of there. ah But The approach with the fiction so far is, like I said earlier in the episode, I'm just word dumping. I'm trying to get it out of me.
00:27:11
Speaker
And in order to get it out of me, I need to get me out of the weeds. and i But I look forward to editing it because I know it and it obviously will need it. That's a new process for me. I've never edited a piece at this scale.
00:27:24
Speaker
I have done a lot of editing for all of the pieces that I wrote for... outlets for The Guardian, for Cosmo, like going back and forth with an editor um ah in a like a really masochistic way. I'm sort of like, yeah, just...
00:27:39
Speaker
rake me over the coals. My editor I work with at The Guardian, I really trust and cherish her opinion. And this past time working with her was one of the only times that there were a couple sentences where I was like, no, I think this sentence is important.
00:27:52
Speaker
um But prior to that, I was like, whatever the editor says, i want to get paid for this piece. I want it published. I want it over. Whatever you say. But I think that's smart in the beginning of your career.
00:28:04
Speaker
And then once you have a relationship with someone, it's easier to be like, hey, I really think that this part is important. I really like the way this this flows. would not write it this way. um You know, because when you're getting published out there, it's like you don't have control over the headline. you you got You're getting represented in their way no matter what.
00:28:25
Speaker
So try to protect the parts of your writing in the piece that you feel are super important.
Using Scrivener and Setting Goals
00:28:32
Speaker
Okay. Boyan, what are you doing?
00:28:37
Speaker
Can you get out of here? yeah yes ma'am I think what you said makes a lot of sense. I'm happy to talk through what I do, that's helpful for you. I've written three books.
00:28:50
Speaker
The current book that I'm working on, which is I would call like my big book, my big book that is about intergenerational trauma and my favorite subject and family lore. When I think about what the editing process is going to be like for this book and how I'm working on it, I do somewhat similar to what you were saying where I'm editing while I'm going. And the way that I think about it is it's almost like I'm shaping something. And first, maybe it's like a clay ball. And then I'm going to really refine it and get it to the shape that I want it to be and then get it shiny. And then I'm going to put it aside and then we work on the next one where I'm almost like building up the structure of something. So I'm on, I think like chapter six now, and I try and get each chapter to a place where all the beats are there. And then I'll go back and
00:29:44
Speaker
line by line and sentence by sentence think through do I like how that sounds is this what I'm trying to say is this resonating and i I repeat myself a lot like I'll add like three adjectives or three verbs on something because I'm trying to find the right word So I'll write the first draft and then I'll go back and I'll go through it and do a second draft. And then that's where I would ask for feedback.
00:30:07
Speaker
That's where I'm going to attend a workshop or actually pay for a like a full edit from, you know, my teacher Mark or or somebody else and have them read through it and give me some feedback. So I know what's working, what areas i need to develop more, the beats are in the right place, if the conflict is in the right place. Um,
00:30:28
Speaker
And then based on that bit of feedback, a third version, a third edit where I'm going to be, again, producing, moving things around. And then I'll do a final like fourth draft. yeah Now after the fourth draft, that's typically when I'm going to start sending it out.
00:30:44
Speaker
um But it takes at least four big edits to get it to a place where I feel like it's ready. And then what's wild is they say that you have to your book has to be pristine when you put it out in the world, because a lot of agents, they don't want something that's going to require a lot of work.
00:31:01
Speaker
So you're going to get to this place where you're like, I feel so great about this book, and I'm going to send it out and you're going to get an agent and they're gonna be like, okay, let's edit your book. And then you're going to send it out to publishers. Ideally, someone picks it up and then you have a real editor.
00:31:15
Speaker
With a capital P. Who's going to edit your book again? So when they say writing is really rewriting, it's the truth. And it is so much of what I spend my time on. It's kind of like putting a puzzle together. The generative part is the thing that feeds your soul, right? And then the editing of it is...
00:31:35
Speaker
do I have the technical skills? Do I have the tools in my toolbox to take this thing that I poured my creative spirit into and like actually make it into something that can be received by people and tell the story the way that I want it to be told? What should we call my little book?
00:31:56
Speaker
Not little.
00:31:59
Speaker
Nothing that diminishes the effort that you're putting into it. I'm going to call it, well, I'll just give you my working title. We're going to call it the keep, the keep. Okay. keep I've just been joined by cat.
00:32:14
Speaker
You're going to say hello. No, Jesus cats. But yeah, I am live editing the keep I've got, i'm but I'm also still trying to figure out how Scrivener works while I do that. Um,
00:32:26
Speaker
There are a lot of facets to using Scrivener that are new to me. My previous fiction works had all been done in Google Docs. And so when there was something to work on, I was always going off of the feel of what word did I want to change?
00:32:38
Speaker
And I would just Command F, Control F, whatever it is, find wherever that word was, and then narrow in on on where I wanted to write. With Scrivener, I am trying to make use of this is a different scene.
00:32:50
Speaker
And it's it's not all just one huge chapter. You can break these things up. I was just thinking as we were speaking earlier that that flashback I'm referring to should be its own scene.
00:33:01
Speaker
Because I might want the character to flashback to that at a different point in the story and not where it is. So I'm still getting a hang of like fiction structure.
00:33:12
Speaker
in that way. That is really new and novel to me. I think what's nice about Scrivener is you can create like little files and dump stories or backstory or even notes to yourself in those files and you can move them around, right?
00:33:28
Speaker
Yeah. um To figure out like where they make sense. I bought it for my mom and she will not use it. She uses Microsoft Word. i think we just get stuck in our... routines of what works for us and
Balancing Writing with Parenting
00:33:41
Speaker
what's comfortable. But I do think that for someone like you who likes to monitor their word count and look at things like KPIs, Scrivener is a great tool.
00:33:51
Speaker
It totally is. i do love it for that. Well, what are your goals for this week, Hilton? Oh, have a gift coming. My in-laws arrive in two days and they will be here for a little over a week.
00:34:06
Speaker
And I am going to take advantage of that. They're great baby holders. ah They're also great at chores. But what I really I don't need anybody to do my chores. I need someone to hold that baby.
00:34:19
Speaker
so that I can get some work done. I have my first, let's see, what do I want my goal to be? Because I have my first plot class. And so coming out of that, I think there will be some work.
00:34:30
Speaker
I think, listen, I'm open to feedback. I am open to being workshopped. Instead of a word count this week, I am going to take your advice.
00:34:43
Speaker
And I am going to say I'd like to dedicate... seven hours outside of the class. I'm not counting the class. The class is two and a half hours.
00:34:56
Speaker
I want to dedicate seven other hours to working on the novel. And in the back of my mind, that little word ticker will still be running up.
00:35:10
Speaker
But i am it's going to be seven hours. And i'm the way I'm going to do that is I will actually put it on the calendar because it is very helpful for me. And Ben and I love using a calendar. Love being like, these two hours are taken.
00:35:24
Speaker
i share all of my work meetings with him so that he knows when i can't take the child. And so I will put them on and get them scheduled. And that way also I'm like, that is counting those hours for me.
00:35:40
Speaker
How much time would you say on average you spent? Is seven a pathetic goal? Is it a reach goal?
00:35:51
Speaker
Well, this past week, I would say i only spent like three hours. I had an assignment I had to turn in for for a writing opportunity.
00:36:02
Speaker
i had ah new client come in that I had to onboard. i just was like, the book is, it's not book week. And so book week got pushed to in-law week. I think seven hours is a good goal for me only because I'm like I'm trying to think about truly uninterrupted time where the child doesn't need me. He is exclusively breastfed.
00:36:25
Speaker
I don't pump. It didn't work for me. So he doesn't have a bottle routine. He drinks out of, his he drinks water out of a sippy cup, but he so far won't drink formula. I'm still a cow in my stable.
00:36:37
Speaker
I cannot leave. And I love to know that my time is going to be uninterrupted and I can get an hour and a half usually at most before you're being summoned to the stable.
00:36:50
Speaker
I remember that. I remember those days. Yeah. I mean, ah they say that babies are like at his age should be like feeding every three to four hours. And like, I got a snacker on my hands.
00:37:00
Speaker
He he's his mother's child. He's like every hour and a half. He's like, okay, I'm ready. I'm hungry. Oh, man. Well, how old is Woods now? He's eight months. Eight months. Okay.
00:37:11
Speaker
So he'll start eating food and... He's eating some food, but like, you know... Doesn't help. He still wants... Maybe he just wants you. i mean, we do love each other.
00:37:24
Speaker
ah I can see why he might be like, where's mom? I'm like, hold on, baby. I'm writing a novel. Yeah.
00:37:33
Speaker
I mean, it doesn't it doesn't go away. My my six year old will i'll be writing and she'll come in the garage. Can I be with you? um want you. like no. no Get out.
Setting Future Writing Goals
00:37:45
Speaker
but it's ah It takes a lot of bribery and ice cream. And like, if you can give mommy until this time, I will take you to get frozen yogurt or whatever. Maybe you get a treat too, then.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yeah. Who doesn't love frozen yogurt? what is right All right. So my, my goal is seven hours on top of the class and I will schedule it and I will let you know next week how that goes.
00:38:11
Speaker
Tell me about your goal and which of your projects it is on. So first, I would just like to say I'm so excited for your upcoming week of added childcare. And I do think that this time spent goal is going to be helpful for you. And i bet you, you write a ton.
00:38:28
Speaker
I bet you, you blow past your medium size word count goal. I will put money on it right now. you'll get ah Do you have frozen yogurt in your town? No, of course not. But I could probably make some homemade ice cream.
00:38:42
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I was going to put some protein powder in it. That's where my mind goes. Make some protein ice cream.
Closing Thoughts and Listener Engagement
00:38:48
Speaker
Anyway, my writing goal for the week. the the sad ways in which we adults give ourselves a treat.
00:38:55
Speaker
I'm going to try to get up and write from 5.30 to 6.30 every day. That's what I'm hoping that I can do. i also have two things that I have to apply to this weekend where the deadlines are like the first and the second.
00:39:12
Speaker
and So I have to do that. I can see myself not doing it and I really want to do it, even though I think I'll get rejected from these workshops because one I've gotten rejected from before and whatever.
00:39:24
Speaker
And the other one I've gotten accepted for four before, but it was a long time ago. so I'm going apply for these workshops and hopefully I'll get in. And then I want to spend one hour every day from 530 to 630 writing, which means I have to get up at five and have coffee and get in front of my desk. Do you want me to gentle parent you disappointed dad you? Because I'm in a different time zone. I will be awake.
00:39:46
Speaker
i could I could harass you and just be like, are you awake? Writing? What are you doing over there? My phone's on do not disturb from 11 to 9, so it wouldn't work.
00:40:00
Speaker
it would Even more fun, I should text you and just be like, I'm watching you. I could text you every morning that I'm at my desk if you want.
00:40:11
Speaker
Yeah. Hell yeah. I'm here. Okay. Do I get a prize? Do i get a treat? but i do them Absolutely. You can get frozen yogurt from a real frozen yogurt place. You're not out there scooping snow into a bucket like a homesteader.
00:40:26
Speaker
You do not do that. No, but we have talked about it. We do make our own popsicles, but we are not so far along in the child entertainment business that we're teaching him how to make homemade ice cream.
00:40:39
Speaker
and Well, I wish you luck in your goal this week. And you're still here for me. at Not on the weekends. I'm not waking up at 530 on the weekend. That's insane. But on Monday morning, bright and early.
00:40:51
Speaker
Bright and early. I'll be texting you. i can't wait. All right, you know how the end of the episode goes. This is Pen Pals with Kelton Wright and Saren Canary talking about our journeys to getting published and all the ways we get rejected.
00:41:05
Speaker
ah in the meantime, you know how podcasts work. Please subscribe, like, comment, share, and write to us