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Smash or Pass: Literary Edition
155 Plays20 days ago
In this episode, Krisserin and Kelton catch up on their writing progress before diving into a spirited round of "Smash or Pass" with a literary twist. They debate everything from writing in book margins and killing off main characters to dream sequences and unreliable narrators. The conversation shifts to rapid-fire opinions on popular authors like Andy Weir, Sarah J. Maas, Emily Henry, and more. Krisserin shares her plan to finish revising her novel, while Kelton commits to writing 2,000 words in the coming week. Plus, they discuss the challenges of query letters and the joy of reading what you love versus what you "should" read.
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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios
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Transcript
Greetings and Weather
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, hi, Kelton. So nice to see your beautiful face. So nice to see you on this crisp spring morning in the mountains. Oh, is it nice? It's pretty gloomy here today. No, we're really rocking out. best ah Best weather, least attractive time of year. Everything is...
00:00:17
Speaker
As dead as a doornail. I was going ask, how does it smell? yeah it doesn't smell like anything but dirt.
Introducing 'Pen Pals' Podcast
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm Chris-Aaron Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novel. From first drafts to query letters. Through inevitable rejection. And hopefully eventual success.
00:00:32
Speaker
From California Colorado. This is Pen Pals. As you know, I was in Portland this last week and it is just, it it is springing up there. It is so beautiful. And my mom's garden is just an explosion of color and scents. It's so
Weekly Writing Reflections
00:00:47
Speaker
nice. How were your goals this week?
00:00:50
Speaker
they i i They were okay. They were okay. so as um as you recall, i wanted to write that scene. And I did. I wrote it. And I have only two chapters of revision left.
00:01:09
Speaker
So i'm I'm looking forward to finishing this draft. And then I also said that I was going to try and figure editing or workshopping or whatever that looked like.
00:01:20
Speaker
And I do have um some feelers out for that. So I feel like accomplished my goals as much as I could in a week of travel and upheaval and all of that craziness. But how about you? How were your goals this week?
00:01:33
Speaker
It was okay. My goal was just words and I got about 1500 of them out. Okay. um And then more importantly, i talked to someone yesterday about a potential in at a daycare. Ooh.
00:01:48
Speaker
I know. And I just could see the words writing themselves. Yeah.
00:01:54
Speaker
It's a nice daycare here too, and her kid just hates it for arbitrary reasons. She was like, no, everybody really loves it. I don't know what what his deal is, but he doesn't want to be there, so we're going to try something else.
00:02:07
Speaker
She's like, so you want me to um mean recommend you? And I was like, yes, I'm on the wait list. We couldn't even start until another at least month and change from now because he has to be one and walking.
00:02:19
Speaker
um And he also has to like wean a little. But ah yeah, we have potential for some freedom in the future. That is very exciting. Tell me how your actual week of
Linear Writing Approach
00:02:30
Speaker
writing went. you got 1500 words done How many days?
00:02:33
Speaker
How often were you able to to sit down in front of your computer? I think I sat down and wrote about eight times hes um total, which was really nice. I had two huge presentations this week.
00:02:46
Speaker
So a lot of my mental space in the beginning of the week was just focusing on that presentation. And then I had to do it at 6 p.m. at night on Wednesday and then at 7 a.m. in the morning on Thursday.
00:02:58
Speaker
And of of course, the child's digestive system is still not developed. um So we're still having a lot of sleeping difficulty on and off. um So was the tail end of that, like after that 7am presentation, I was able to like get a huge chunk out, which felt really good. And I i feel ah feel good about the progress I'm making. I have switched a little from um jumping scene to scene to writing linear.
00:03:25
Speaker
um Since I told you I wrote that opening scene of the first chapter, it has felt easy to just pile onto that and like kind of have that forward momentum, okay, like, what happens is in this scene to drive to the next one? And then what happens to drive to the next one?
00:03:40
Speaker
And so things are kind of falling into place for at least the first part of the book, which feels really good.
Story Structure Challenges
00:03:45
Speaker
I was listening to I was listening to our podcast episode, because knew that, and thinking about what you said Liz Moore does, ending the scene right before giving something away, and it stuck with me, and I really love that concept. So I can see that being a very useful way of propelling yourself forward as you're trying to get the story out for the first time. so that's fantastic. Totally.
00:04:10
Speaker
Well, we did it. We accomplished goals. Yeah. But you know, I feel like I'm, I'm on the verge of a slump yeah because I have two chapters left. And so I'm going to finish those two chapters and then what, you know, hopefully I'll find someone that I can work with on this book. So I'm just, I'm a little wary because I'm gonna finish this draft and then i guess I could read it again. i guess I could read my book again now that I've, you know, revised and added on more.
00:04:42
Speaker
But I do feel like I'm ready for a reader. So I need to figure that out. Would you ever do a trial draft of a query letter on this book in the interim?
AI in Query Letters
00:04:52
Speaker
Like now that you have like ah almost a settled draft.
00:04:55
Speaker
Well, the only reason I ask is because I don't know what it is about the algorithm, but they decided to start showing me query content on Instagram reels. And of course, it's always girls. They're looking at their computer and then they dramatically turn to camera and they're like, I got three agents in 72 hours. Here's how.
00:05:14
Speaker
And it's like and they're like sharing their query letters. And they're always like, in this book, the werewolf fucks the vampire and the ghoul. You know, it's like always like the smuttiest fantasy that they're ah like pitching and getting out there. And I'm like, I don't know who your agent is, but that's the content that is being targeted to me right now.
00:05:36
Speaker
And it does seem like there is some value in ah a book to being like, okay, well, how would I shape a query letter for this? Even if you're not at that stage, because I think it can help you. seems like it can help you this the same way you told me to write a synopsis. And that helps me think through my book as a complete entity.
00:05:53
Speaker
i feel like a query letter would help with the phase of editing. So I'm going to admit something that I'm not very proud of. ah Yes.
00:06:06
Speaker
And I think we've talked about this, like, or wanted to talk about this a little bit, but um I use AI for query letters.
00:06:16
Speaker
you Oh, boy. can't wait to have an episode on AI. Because I have, like, huge opinions. But tell me.
00:06:28
Speaker
Tell me. I remember in a class that I took, we talked about log lines and trying to write a log line for your novel and writing a query letter and writing a log line has to be some of, to me, like I can write hundred thousand words of a novel, but one page query letter.
00:06:45
Speaker
Shoot me in the head. It is not the same thing. It is a completely different skill set. And am terrible at it. And so for me, i will write a, I'll write the query letter and then I'll put it into...
00:07:01
Speaker
my AI of choice and it makes it sound so much better. Honestly, I, ah hate it. i hate writing query letters. Just you saying it like was my heart starting pouting. I was like feeling nauseous.
00:07:14
Speaker
It's revenge for what I asked you to finish your book at the beginning of the summer. Oh, oh great. Well, I can't wait until the end of this episode when we assign each other goals. I'm going to come for you. No.
00:07:30
Speaker
As my mom would say, we rebuke that in the name of Jesus. Talking of rebuking things, we have some fun things to talk about
Book Habits: Smash or Pass
00:07:41
Speaker
today. we Today, we do we're playing or Pass. Smash or Pass, which is the, I guess, PC, ah gen Z way of saying fuck, marry, kill, which is what I did when i was in junior high.
00:08:00
Speaker
but Yeah. Pass is so much more gentle for me. Thank you. Moving along. Yeah. that' Okay. I'll smash that though. Thanks. We came up with a various amount of topics, literary topics that we will go through. And also at the end, maybe some rapid fire authors and that we'll chat through as well.
00:08:22
Speaker
But i can't wait. Yeah. All right. um Shall we get started? Let's do this. Okay, so smash your pass. First off, writing in the margins of books.
00:08:37
Speaker
Smash, if it's your book. If it's your book, like if you physically own it. If you physically own the copy, ah you can do whatever you want to it, in my opinion. But obviously, if it's anyone else's book in any way, pass.
00:08:52
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. What about highlighting in Kindles? Do you do that? Do you have a Kindle? Well, don't have a Kindle. No, I don't have a Kindle. Okay. Well, i mean, for me, writing in book margins is definitely a smash. I feel like, not that I ever go back and look at the things that I underline very rarely.
00:09:10
Speaker
you see those people on TikTok or on Instagram that will like highlight and flag and like all their books are just like completely marked up? I don't get that.
00:09:21
Speaker
I don't understand that. Like, why do people do that? I don't know. And I don't know if they're doing that over the course of reading it several times. Like I've seen this a lot with fourth wing content, trying to like break down theories. And this is like, but they'll, someone will be like tabbed all the times Dane touches Violet's face. Have you read those books? There's a reason he's touching her face. It's criminal.
00:09:45
Speaker
I feel like they are doing that because they are book talk people. They're creating content about the book, but I cannot understand a reason to do it otherwise. I do it in recipe books because obviously I'm referring back.
00:09:59
Speaker
I go back to my notes a bunch when I'm highlighting a nonfiction book that I plan to reference in my writing. But in fiction books, sometimes I'll underline stuff when it's just like, ooh, perfect turn of phrase. Like, oh, I love that sentiment.
00:10:13
Speaker
But even then, that is rare. Yeah. And that's why I underline in a book. If there is something that just leaves me gobsmacked and I want to remember it and be able to go and find it again, then I will underline it. And sometimes I'll just take a picture with my phone because that's a lot easier to find than me trying to like pop through the book.
00:10:30
Speaker
But yeah, I'm sorry. I think I know we're going to get to Rebecca Yaros later, but any book written by either her or Sarah J Maas, like there's no...
00:10:44
Speaker
Why? what We'll talk about them. We'll talk about him And I'll tell you that why. All right. My turn. Smash or pass. Killing off main characters. Ooh.
00:10:56
Speaker
It has to be worth it. It's a smash if it is... If it makes sense, if it's just the author trying to toy with my emotions or manipulate me in any other way, it's a pass and it's a throwing the book out the window, Bradley Cooper in that movie. I forget which movie that was.
00:11:16
Speaker
A Silver Linings Playbook. um But if if the author has earned it, then it's a smash. I mean, anything works if it works, right? Yeah, sure.
00:11:28
Speaker
I don't like when it feels like they're killing my darlings. I'm like, the job is to kill your darlings. Okay? Not mine. i kind of hate when they kill off main characters, but I also, i don't read a lot of books where I know that's...
00:11:46
Speaker
what's likely to happen. Like if a book is like a drama or family drama, I'm like, I'm not going to read that, you know, and characters die in those books. um But when a character dies unnecessarily in a fantasy book that everyone likes, and it feels like they're just killing them to have some sadness or momentum, I'm like, this is, I hate this.
00:12:09
Speaker
I hate this. It feels forced. But like you said, if it feels like it works, um, Then it works. Yeah. But I still don't like it. I'm not going to smash it. So I think in fantasy books, though, especially ones that have epic battles, it makes more sense to me when that happens. yeah So I'm reading Robin Hobb's epic fantasy series. There's I think 12, 16 books in this one series. And I am on the third series in this, I think, five series novels.
00:12:39
Speaker
And in the last one, in the first book, one of, ah a main character, yeah, like one of the main characters dies, but he's a wolf. And so wolves don't live forever, you know? i know. but the Oh, because humans do? Yeah.
00:12:54
Speaker
I mean, so we're talking 16 books here, so these humans are living a long time. Yeah, you gotta kill some people with that many books. I mean, I cry i cry like a baby when night and spoiler alert one Night Eyes dies. But I think that if the if the author has earned it and it feels emotionally true, then it's okay.
00:13:17
Speaker
Not that I like it. Fair enough. Yeah. Fair enough.
Freedom to Not Finish Books
00:13:21
Speaker
Okay. Organizing books by color in your home. I mean, obviously pass. Yeah. I'm a pass on that one too.
00:13:31
Speaker
I just, I don't, if that is how your brain stores books in your head, where you're like, I know my favorite book is read, then I get it.
00:13:43
Speaker
But I don't feel like that's what most people are doing. I feel like most people are doing it as an aesthetic choice. Like my books aren't organized in any way that you would look at and recognize, but they have an organization to me and it's Ben's books and then my books.
00:14:02
Speaker
And then it's sort of loosely... Like piled in like these are sort of writing books. These are sort of fantasy books. These are sort of like are like nature books. And that's kind of how they're segmented.
00:14:15
Speaker
but i I think that you should organize books by how you find them. And if you are not organizing books in a way that helps you find them, then why you have them?
00:14:31
Speaker
It's a great question because really, truly, if you're not looking for them for some reason, then maybe they should go to the library or, or Goodwill or something. But yeah, I have a feeling that people who, and I have friends who do this, so I won't be too harsh about it, but I feel like it's more of an aesthetic than it is, you know?
00:14:50
Speaker
someone who's referencing them regularly. I was an English literature major, have a shit ton of books from college that I've held onto. And our library is very, very meticulously organized Victorian era of fiction, because that's kind of what my specialty was.
00:15:10
Speaker
all the way through, you know, modern literature. And then I have my big, my like Norton anthologies at the bottom of my bookcase. And then other bookcase, I have like literary criticism, plays, poetry. And then we go into Boyan's books, which are nonfiction. So we have like political science and physics and travel and gardening. Like it's very...
00:15:37
Speaker
very organized. It would throw me into a um like OCD tailspin if we had like a cookbook next to Richard Feynman's lectures on physics or something.
00:15:48
Speaker
Yeah, i couldn't do it. We also have like our cookbooks are in the kitchen. yeah same. And then all our we have a separate small shelving unit that's just guidebooks. So identifying scat, mushrooms, rocks, trees, animals, like all those books for many different states.
00:16:05
Speaker
All of our maps, those are all in like one library section. and then all other books are like, there's stacks of books on history of the area. There's all the fiction books are upstairs. i mean, there's piles of books everywhere in my house. So like, I think even the idea of truly organizing them by color would be a fool's errand because I would just keep finding books in places. Yeah. And then my i I organize my kids' libraries too. Yeah.
00:16:35
Speaker
Because I'm a psycho. okay have the like do your kids appreciate it? oh ah No, no. have like all of the little golden books in one area. I have all of the like Mo Willems books in one area.
00:16:49
Speaker
Anything that's a nonfiction picture book is on one side. And then all of the other picture books, all the Dr. Seuss's together. I mean, it just makes sense, right? Yeah. It does.
00:17:00
Speaker
It does. Okay. Moving on. but Smash or pass DNFing books. Smash. I don't... Yeah, huge smash. cannot... If I don't like a book, I cannot finish it. I can... I will not even attempt. I bought... Yes, I've read Fourth Wing and i bought Iron Flame. I like pre-ordered it. We say like if you want to support an author, pre-order their books.
00:17:25
Speaker
But i started reading Iron Flame was like, no, I returned it so fast. Got that refund. Um... But yeah, I cannot, I don't have I don't have time to like force my way through a book that I don't like. But if it's a book that I have to read and I'm struggling to get through it, I will listen to the audio book because that is a more passive way of consuming it. And I can do that on a walk or something and it's not so bad. and How about you?
00:17:53
Speaker
Yeah, i I'm more than happy to DNF. If it's just not grabbing me, like, a you know, then what am I doing? I'm using books as an escape. And if it's not taking me anywhere, if I'm just stuck on the tarmac with this book, it's like, how well, how long are we going to be on the tarmac? I want a deep plane. You can't hold me hostage here. You're a book.
00:18:16
Speaker
So, you know, get rid of it I also think could do that and come back to it if you want to. Like sometimes I'm like, this isn't the book for now. It's taken me years to read Braiding Sweetgrass.
00:18:29
Speaker
And I really like that book. Every chapter I've read, i love, but I just, I don't have any forward momentum in that book. And so after like three years, I still have like four chapters left.
00:18:42
Speaker
Yeah, I have picked up Braiding Sweetgrass quite a few times and have not been able to get into it. But let's talk about that because- I also use books as a form of escapism. They're what i return to at the end of the day to unwind and to take my mind off of, you know, the the trials and tribulations of our current world.
00:19:02
Speaker
But that being said, it means that I really struggle to read literary fiction that I should read to make myself a better writer. And I hate that about myself. I was a literature major and I suffered through reading a lot. i skimmed a lot of the books that I had to read for that degree.
00:19:20
Speaker
But now as an adult, you know, there are books that I know that have won big awards. I'm like, I should read this book and I'll pick it up and be like, I don't want to read those books. I just put it away.
00:19:32
Speaker
So how are we supposed to become better writers if all we want to read is the stuff that brings us joy? i guess i don't I mean, I do have methods for this. you know If there's a book that I'm like, I got to get through this one, I just i do the the same thing that I do when I'm running. When I'm running, I'm like, you got to run at least until that tree.
00:19:51
Speaker
Or like you got to run at least until the creek. And then usually like I can take a little break and then keep running. And with a book, I'm like, you got to at least read this chapter. You have to read until page 45. I give myself a and deadline, and if I'm really dragging, I'll make myself read it out loud because if my brain's just like, I want to do something else, the way I can get my brain to actually do it is make it do the the heavy lifting of or rating it.
00:20:22
Speaker
Well, we know what a great runner I am. So.
00:20:28
Speaker
I'll need to, I'll need to find some other method to get myself through it. But it is something that I struggle with. And it's frustrating because I do, I do want to read, you know, books that i think will make me a better writer, but I just really want to disappear into the world that Robin Hobb has created until, and just keep my head in the sand until I get through all 16 novels. I'm on the ninth book right now.
00:20:52
Speaker
So I'm halfway there. Amazing. little more than that.
Prologues and Protagonists
00:20:55
Speaker
Okay, smash your past morally great protagonists. What do you think I'm going to say? Oh, definitely smash.
00:21:04
Speaker
Yeah, smash out of the ballpark. Are you kidding? I'm hitting home runs on morally great protagonists. They're my favorite. um I don't like really moral...
00:21:16
Speaker
They're boring. Moral protagonists. They're so boring. um i like someone who's a little on the the bad side. Yeah. Just like you kind of want your friends to be a little morally great too, right? Like no one wants to hang out with the goody two shoes.
00:21:32
Speaker
I mean, honestly, it's ah an ongoing struggle in my life to be like, are you a little bad? Tell me you're a little bad. You little bad? And they're always like, me, I'm so blessed to be here. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to see myself out the exit.
00:21:46
Speaker
You don't want me here. I'm going to tell you that right now. Okay. Prologues. Prologues. Listen, don't have a problem with a prologue. I didn't even know this was a thing you could smash or pass on. I didn't realize people had opinions on this.
00:22:01
Speaker
If the prologue is good,
00:22:05
Speaker
i i guess I should say like, sometimes I am like, I don't understand why this isn't just chapter one, but if someone wants to write a prologue, knock themselves out. Go ahead. What do you, you know, I'm not gonna say smash, because it's not like I love them, but if other people wanna smash it and have me read it,
00:22:23
Speaker
Sure. Well, you know, I volunteer in Sabine's fifth grade classroom doing reading circle and they were reading Hatchet. You ever read that book?
00:22:34
Speaker
the Yes. Apparently there like five of them. I'm like, how often did this kid get stranded in the Canadian wilderness? Yeah. That's so strange. I know. i't haven't read any of them, but I was with a group of boys and they're kind of one of the rowdier reading groups, but I find them very fun and engaging.
00:22:54
Speaker
And the boy didn't read the prologue. And i was like you didn't read the prologue? He's like, no, I thought you could just skip it.
00:23:04
Speaker
And not only did he not read the prologue, he didn't read the epilogue either, which in Hatchet like tells you that the kid got out and survived. So he had no idea that the kid was able to get home. Like, dude...
00:23:16
Speaker
You know that that kid has never read the instructions on an exam in his life. Oh man, probably not. But so here's the thing. i say this having a prologue in my current book, if I know, but um i don't really like reading them very much.
00:23:33
Speaker
I don't like, I don't like reading prologues and i hate little bits in front of chapters that the author will sometimes put there for you to read. like But guess what? I do it in my book.
00:23:45
Speaker
So I guess I'm like... So does the reader like a prologue, I guess, is the question. um My teacher, Mark Sarvis, would argue that if it deserves to be in the story, it deserves to be in the story and not tacked on.
00:24:03
Speaker
as a prologue to your book. So there are a lot of varying opinions on prologues. Um, and I guess with anything, if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, then people will skip it, I guess, but all right, well then I, I'm going to go smash. I, I'm going go smash now.
00:24:21
Speaker
I like them. You like them? All right. Yeah, I think I like them. Okay. I like a little peppering text and I like a, you know why? Because I'm usually just impressed with the author. I'm like, where did you pull all this stuff from? Yeah.
00:24:34
Speaker
It's just, it just blows my mind. So I'm going to go smash. Okay. I, I, uh, I guess I have to say smash. Otherwise I'm a hypocrite. but All right. I think this kind of lines up with, uh, highlighting your own book, but how do you feel about dog earing pages?
00:24:52
Speaker
I don't like it. pass. I don't like it. ruins the page forever. It's horrible. Listen, if you to like save your place in a book, I, I'm not a big bookmark person, but I will literally, I find like, honestly, like, like protein bar wrappers in my books.
00:25:11
Speaker
I will just like shove things in there or napkins or business cards or something. There's got to be a better way than dog earring. A page. Yeah. I don't mind it, but I don't do it.
00:25:23
Speaker
I don't mind if one of my books looks mangled by the end. Like, i often read my books outside, in the rain, in the hot tub, when it's snowing, and inevitably things get a lot of water damage.
00:25:36
Speaker
And I just don't mind it looking a little, haha, weathered. I have to tell you a ah cardinal sin. My mother, dog ears. library books.
00:25:50
Speaker
No! know. I know. And she confessed it like a little schoolgirl going to the confessional. And I just was like, you can't. And she was like, oh, they hate me at the library.
00:26:03
Speaker
And she gets out hundreds of books a year. And she's dog-hearing all of them. She's a criminal. I'm aghast. I know. I know.
00:26:15
Speaker
You should just charge her because, you know, I, when you start taking books out for your children, inevitably they will wreck a book. And it's happened to me a couple of times now. And I've had to out of my own pocket, replace the book or pay money to have the book replaced. And it's like 20, $25. So not to rat her but so not to like rat her out but The library should just start charging know. going to call the Boise library and just be like, I've got an insider tip for you.
00:26:45
Speaker
They're like, yeah, we know. We can see it in the system, Kelton.
00:26:50
Speaker
They should least give her a stern talking to. That's not that's not nice. Bad girl. Bad, bad, that bad, bad. Okay, well, we already talked about this a little bit, but what about using ai for brainstorming?
00:27:04
Speaker
I feel like I have to have a whole episode to this. Okay. I have a lot of conflicting views ethically, morally, creatively. i would lean against using AI for almost everything, but that doesn't mean I don't use it.
00:27:21
Speaker
This is my enemy, you know, at the bar. Like if I'm at smashing or passing, I see this person and I spit in their drink. And then maybe I'll smash them if I get drunk enough.
00:27:32
Speaker
So...
00:27:34
Speaker
You know, things are gray. Morally gray. I'm a morally gray protagonist. I don't believe in putting any unique ideas into AI. Anything that's precious or the AI model can use to to train on, I don't put in there. But I have a bit of a technical and coding puzzle in my book.
00:27:57
Speaker
And so I used AI to really figure out how to talk about it in a way that would be easy for people to understand. And it's a bit of a hacker thing too.
00:28:08
Speaker
as much as I lean on my husband, you know, and i ask him about it, he's like, that's how it works. I'm like, you're so, you're not useful.
00:28:17
Speaker
Which, by the way Robert, if you're listening to this,
00:28:22
Speaker
my My husband's friend was like, Boyan, do you listen to Chris Aaron's podcast? Do you hear the things she says about you?
00:28:32
Speaker
Oh, man. Anyway. oh what a traitor. don't say anything bad about my husband. I love him. But you know, he's very, very, very intelligent. And he is a terrible teacher.
00:28:45
Speaker
And he gets very impatient and frustrated when trying to explain highly technical things. So sometimes it's better just to ask the devil the devil being clod which is the eye of choice that i use but anyhow you're sweet ai sweet all right so we'll talk about that ad nauseum soon but how do you feel about ambiguous endings fucking hate them ugh hate them hate them.
Endings and Conclusions
00:29:12
Speaker
eat them I feel the same way about ambiguous endings as I do with plotless novels, things that just kind of like do to do float along the river of things happening to the characters with no real end in sight. I really don't like them. I'm like, why did I waste my time?
00:29:31
Speaker
If you don't have anything to say if you don't have a point to make, then don't write a book. Don't it. I think it comes back to what we talked about that like, why is your book starting in these characters lives now?
00:29:43
Speaker
And so if nothing happens, then why did the book start now? I, it's not for me. there are There are some types of ambiguous endings that I will allow in the drum, cum, romidy, whatever you want to call it, the wedding people.
00:30:01
Speaker
Some people in my book club said that that had an ambiguous ending. But for me, I was like, I don't agree. i think it's like, she just didn't write the next chapter where the obvious thing happens, but it's implied that those things are going to happen.
00:30:18
Speaker
And so I'm like, that that to me is not an ambiguous ending. If it's like, yes, it's obvious what's going to happen, that's not ambiguous. Ambiguous is it's truly they've left you hanging. You don't have any clues as to what's going to happen.
00:30:33
Speaker
Or they've intentionally left clues in both directions. And you're like, what? Why? And sometimes I just feel like that's because they couldn't write an ending. it's funny coming from you, the woman who won't read the last chapter of Bel Canto.
00:30:48
Speaker
Listen, I read it the first time, okay? I read the whole book the first time I read it, and then I didn't like it, and but but now I just don't read that last chapter.
00:30:59
Speaker
I know what happens. just don't need to be reminded. You know, endings are hard. They really are hard. By the way, when I submitted my application for Tin House, I did not submit the end of the short story that I wrote because I didn't like it. so i was like, it keeps going.
00:31:17
Speaker
But due to the word count limitation, i'm only submitting this much. Maybe that's why I got rejected. But endings are difficult. Now let me ask you this. Do your books, not the ones you write, but the ones you read, do they have to have happy endings?
00:31:36
Speaker
he I think yes. Yeah. Most of the books I really, really love have happier ending. mean, it's and it's nice to have a happy ending. I'm okay with books that feel like they have a complete ending, meaning like everything, everything, it doesn't have to all be tied up, but it has to come to some sort of completion in a way that feels satisfactory for me.
00:31:59
Speaker
Because I don't think happy endings are, I think that's a very Western thing, you know? Happy ending for the novel. I'm a very Western girl. Yes, you are. Living up in the mountains of Colorado. Yeah, I mean, i do prefer a happy ending in the books I read. And I think that that can really be poo-pooed in the same way that like rom-coms are poo-pooed. And it's like general enjoyment is poo-pooed.
00:32:26
Speaker
It's like, yeah, I like to feel good and close the book going, that was nice. And you know, it's like if it doesn't end that way, it's been a long time since I've chosen to read a book like that.
00:32:39
Speaker
Because then I'm left with that feeling for weeks. And I don't need anyone to generate that feeling for me. There's been enough things that have happened in my life.
00:32:51
Speaker
I can tap into that feeling any day, any hour, you name it, I can draw it. And I just am like, if I have it already, I don't need someone else to... Be burning toast in my kitchen.
00:33:05
Speaker
Get out. I think you're right. I think it goes back to wanting to read things or escape, right? And there are a lot of books that end in ways that feel right and they feel emotionally true and they're really well-crafted story.
00:33:21
Speaker
But do we want to read those things or do we just want to enjoy our ourselves? you know I also think it's tough when you're talking about the big idea of a happy ending because that could be really broad for me and I don't realize it.
00:33:35
Speaker
Like I don't need every book to end with them like, and they kissed and they married and everything was wonderful from there on out. It's like, I don't need ah lack of reality.
00:33:46
Speaker
I need a character who feels good about their trajectory. I need a character who has gone from hating them themselves to loving them themselves. You know, I need the dog to not die.
00:33:58
Speaker
Listen, um if you kill the animals in a book, I'm not interested. I'm not reading it. i don't like it. You can do it the John Wick way. If you do it in the first scene as the motivator for the entire series, and then you rescue another dog later in the series, I will allow it.
00:34:19
Speaker
But if you make me fall in love with that goddamn dog to kill it, and don't tell me dogs die. i'm not reading Where the Red Fern Grows another day in my life. I don't need to know that all these dogs are just dying.
00:34:34
Speaker
It's just like, oh, that will happen again in my life. It happened like a year ago. don't need another dead dog in a book. Get out of here. You know, there's an entire, I think there's an entire website called Does the Dog Die? Oh, amazing. Where can just check in like TV, movies, books, like if the dog dies, so you can spare yourself this agony.
00:34:54
Speaker
Oh man, I'm going to look it up. Jack London's White Fang. Did you read that book? As a kid, no. Oh, gosh. There's a scene where the guy takes his team onto shaky ice and all the dogs drown. And I was so pissed and i was crying.
00:35:10
Speaker
That guy's such an idiot. I was so angry because it was so senseless. You know, I will say... So not to get too in the weeds with Robin Hobb's books, but there are characters that are witted that can speak to animals and they bond with animals and they have very deep relationships with them. They can like go into each other's bodies and speak through their shared consciousness. And so animals, when they die, it is...
00:35:40
Speaker
it is a real death because it's like half of you is gone forever. And so I think the fact that the grieving of the animal character in the book is so raw, it like makes it a little bit better because I feel like when animals die in books, it's kind of like, and then the animal died and let's move on with the story. And that feels so disingenuous to how we experience our pets' lives and deaths in our own life, right? Yeah.
00:36:06
Speaker
Or it's like the girl dies or the woman is raped as like a way to move a male protagonist forward. It's like just a mechanism to give a man growth.
00:36:17
Speaker
And whenever they do that, I'm like, get get out of my library, get out of my house. was that Are those books written by men? Because I feel like women don't do that. Yeah, women don't do that. No. I mean, I'm sure some women authors do, of course. But yeah, they're usually written by men.
00:36:34
Speaker
ah So pass. Books written by men smash or pass.
00:36:42
Speaker
I mean, listen, there are definitely books I read by men. But I was thinking about this earlier this week in regards to us having this conversation. Most of the books that I love were written by women.
00:36:54
Speaker
Most of the books I seek out these days are written by women. And I'm not like, what are the top new women authors to read? I'm more like, what is a book that does this? Where is a book that I can get this?
00:37:07
Speaker
And they're just you often written by women. But there's in queue. Yeah, well... Usually nonfiction. My problem is that I will pick up a book written by a man and I'll start reading it and then they'll describe a woman one way and I'll like, nope.
00:37:23
Speaker
I'm whew, not read this. It's just, they just fail at it so often that, you know, there are men who are incredible writers out there that do the women in their books justice and and are, you know, can handle writing from different POVs, but they're they're not all of them. Not all men.
00:37:45
Speaker
Oh boy. All right. Tell me, smash or pass dream sequences. oh I don't like them. I don't, I especially don't like them when you start a chapter and you realize like, oh, this is a dream. This isn't real. That pisses me off because I feel like the author's trying to trick me.
00:38:04
Speaker
And so I'm not a fan. That being said, I do have a dream sequence in my current book.
00:38:13
Speaker
This is a list of things you wish you weren't doing. But i don't know if this has ever happened to you. don't know. I'm a little boo-boo when it comes to this type of thing. But my grandmother at times will come to me in my dreams.
00:38:26
Speaker
And when she comes to me in my dreams, it doesn't feel like a dream. It feels like a visitation. It feels like she's coming to me and she doesn't do anything, but she'll just sit there and I'll hug her. And there's this sense of true comfort that I feel when I wake up from those dreams, almost like she's come to me.
00:38:44
Speaker
to give me strength or to show me love or just give me something in a moment when I need it. Whether she's really doing those things or not, haven't spent the time to like actually make a decision on how I feel about it.
00:38:58
Speaker
But I do have a scene like that in my book, which is a multi-generational novel about the grandmother, the mother and the daughter, where the grandma comes to her in a dream and does just that. It's just a visitation. It's not like her giving her some warning or you know, her imagining something horrible happened. It's none of that. It's just that thing. I feel like this is a little different. So I'm Sicilian and my family also believes in visitations. They don't call them dreams.
00:39:27
Speaker
um And i feel like... I know enough about how visitation feels for my mom that that is, that's when she's like, I had a dream last night, blah, blah, blah. That is very different than when she says she had a visitation. And the way that operates in a book is like, it's an alternate realm meeting.
00:39:46
Speaker
It's not like, oh, I dreamed my teeth were falling out. So like there's two characters truly interacting in a way in your in your book because of how the character themselves believes that is happening.
00:40:00
Speaker
um So I think that is totally fair. That is also how I feel about dream sequences is that they should not be revealing something that they're thinking about. It should have some materiality to the story
Dream Sequences in Narratives
00:40:13
Speaker
itself. I don't know if um if those are the right words to use, but like dream walking or like Freddy Krueger, where it's like he only interacts in your dreams. you know It's like those things then dreams make sense.
00:40:26
Speaker
I have hallucinations in my book. And so i'm I'm walking like a fine line around how to use those because I don't want them to be dream sequences, but they do really mess with the character's reality.
00:40:42
Speaker
And so instead of her like waking up and being like, I think a thing, her hallucination ends and she's unclear. if she spoke to that person or not. Which is actually how all my dreams are now. I i started to dream that like, I just walk into the kitchen to get a cookie and on the cookie platter and like there is no cookie platter. And then I'm like, oh fuck, I dreamed that.
00:41:04
Speaker
And I'm like, this is a useless way of dreaming. I'm just dreaming there are things in my house that aren't there. And then I'm like, Ben, where are the cookies? And he's like, what cookies? I'm like, what a stupid dream.
00:41:16
Speaker
I was going to say, you have a cookie platter in your house. I mean, occasionally there's just cookies at the ready, you know, but the cookie platter was a dream exclusive. Okay. We have one more before we get into our rapid fire. And that is unreliable narrators smash or pass.
00:41:36
Speaker
Hmm. I lean towards pass for me. This is sort of of like being lied to about a dream sequence. It's a little like not writing the ending for me feel kind of tooled around.
00:41:48
Speaker
And I'm like, well, if you're not going to tell me what actually happened, like, why isn't did another character in this book, right the book? Can I read their story? You know, I mean, it's like, I didn't love Tully. Is that the name of that movie? I didn't love Fight Club. I'm like, I don't, what is happening? I recognize the art.
00:42:06
Speaker
I for sure recognize the art. Don't come for me, but I'm not huge on an unreliable narrator. There are ways to do it. like I have loved books where at the end, you like find out who the narrator is, and they're like, OK, so I fudged some things about myself.
00:42:24
Speaker
In Margot's Got Money Troubles, the narrator interrupts the story at one point to tell you that she's not going to tell the whole truth because it's a little embarrassing. But you still get all of the the right elements of the story. you're it never turns out that you were lied to. They just, she just is like, I'm going gloss over some of this because I'm ashamed of it.
00:42:46
Speaker
Which I thought was like a ah really fun way to have the narrator do something silly. How do you feel about it? Well, i would argue that all narrators are somewhat unreliable.
Unreliable Narrators in Literature
00:43:03
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. And I think it's just dialing it up or down and a good author does it in a way so that the reader can recognize that the narrator is not 100% reliable and we need to take certain things at face value, at least When I've read unreliable narrators done well, that is how they are written, where it's like, okay, well, I'm just going along on the ride of how this person wants to tell the story.
00:43:28
Speaker
i i think of my year of rest and relaxation. Did you read that book? No. no and I know it, though. yeah it is I know a lot about it. Okay. I really enjoyed that book. I know some people, that's ah probably ah a smasher pass on that book, but I do feel like it allows us fully to be in the delusions of of the mind of a character when there is an unreliable narrator because they're not owed the audience the absolute truth in a way that I feel like
00:44:02
Speaker
there is an expectation of that when the everything that the narrator is saying is being taken as truth or, you know what I mean? So yeah, my book has been described having, a yeah, as having an unreliable narrator and, you know, I didn't write it that way. So i was like, Hmm, interesting that you would think that she's like, not telling her 100% truth. It kind of makes sense in a family drama because,
00:44:31
Speaker
You know, we talk about this a lot when like our family members are telling a story about another family member. It's like, you know, they have these deep biases of years and years of knowing each other.
00:44:44
Speaker
And so sometimes you're like, well, i I bet it actually was a little more like this. So I can see how that would potentially translate in a multi-generational book. Yeah, there's a lot of. revisionist history going on when it comes to family legend and lore right but i think again if the author is doing it to trick the reader and to have like a gotcha at the end like i don't like that either i feel like that is not trusting the reader to understand what's going on and i don't like it i think of a silent patient did you read that novel
00:45:19
Speaker
Like I was like, this is stupid. Of course not. Written by a man. had to read it for a book club. was like, this is stupid. Okay. Well, we can go into our rapid fire authors.
Author Ratings: Rapid-Fire Session
00:45:34
Speaker
All right Smash or pass. Andy Ware. Smash. Project Hail Mary. Smash. How about you? Yeah. Epic smash. Yeah. Emily. John Mandel. um I haven't smashed her yet, but I plan to. Oh, epic smash. Epic smash. Sea of Tranquility is a fucking amazing book.
00:45:54
Speaker
All right. leap Yeah, it's all smash. Love her. Yeah, I know you... You're not doing the super silly fun stuff, but I think she's amazing. That is not true. I love super silly fun stuff.
00:46:07
Speaker
On my grave, it's going to say, Sarah loves super silly fun stuff. We're going to get through this list and you're going to find out you do not love super silly fun stuff. Maybe I'll surprise you. Maybe you don't know. What have you read of Leigh Bardugo that makes you go,
00:46:22
Speaker
Okay, wait. how I'm sorry. i love Six of Crows. I love that series. I don't love Shadow and Bone. But we've talked about this. You hated Shadow Bone. Yeah, I mean, I didn't... No, I did not hate Shadow and Bone. I didn't love it.
00:46:37
Speaker
But I loved Ninth House and I loved Six of Crows. Okay. Moving on. Great. The Eshlob. Smash. Smash. Smash. I've read all of her novels. Really good writer. But ah um gosh, what are the books that she she wrote? um Secret Life of Addie LaRue. Haven't read that.
00:46:56
Speaker
i read... Oh, it's good. A Darker Shade of Magic series was really good. was nice. Really, really good. Okay. She's so good. Brandon Sanderson.
00:47:09
Speaker
um Smash em and then Ghost.
00:47:14
Speaker
I've only read Mistborn and I tried to read the second book after that and I couldn't get into it. So maybe, maybe I'll do the same. i should think I read part of the Mistborn series and I liked it, but I just, I just didn't keep going.
00:47:29
Speaker
So yeah, smash a ghost. Why do people love him so much besides the fact that he's written so much? I don't know. I mean, ah that could be part of it, but.
00:47:41
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. All right. Smash or pass Allie Hazelwood. I like Allie Hazelwood. I'm going to say smash. Her books are fun to read. I really liked her chess novel. And then the most recent one about werewolves was really fun.
00:47:54
Speaker
So I'm going to say smash. I've never read her, but just the fact that she writes about werewolves means I'd probably smash. She wrote a lot of books about like science, um,
00:48:05
Speaker
you know, sciencey rom-com type of books. And they were okay. They're cute. They're fine. They're fun reads. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I love a fun read. Yeah. i'm I'm with you. Okay.
00:48:17
Speaker
Rebecca Yaros.
00:48:20
Speaker
Listen, i smashed Fourth Wing and Iron Flame, but by the end of Iron Flame, I was like, what are what are we doing? Yeah. What are we doing?
00:48:31
Speaker
I like the community around Fourth Wing. I love a bunch of girls just being silly talking about dragons online and arguing about Gaelic pronunciations. What a hoot.
00:48:42
Speaker
But yeah. I don't know that i need to read the third book. The second book was literally just Violet being like, why won't you tell me your strategic war plans?
00:48:52
Speaker
I'm a very competent 18 year old. Tell me your war plans. Why won't you tell me you don't love me if you don't tell me your war plans? That was the whole book. And Zayden's just like, it's war plans.
00:49:06
Speaker
I'm not telling you because they're war plans. drove me crazy i was like you gotta dump this girl if they were gonna have these be the main characters you can kill this one off with me that's fine i love your transatlantic accent for violence tell me about this war plan zane
00:49:29
Speaker
Oh man, I'm with you. had lot of fun reading Fourth Wing. I read Iron Flame really fast and then Agnick Storm. I'm like, what are we doing here? the There does not need to be five books. There's not enough material for five books.
00:49:41
Speaker
That's why just feel like being, she's being greedy, you know? That's when she's just like, I want to cash in on this ah world that I've created. Fair enough to her. Let that greed find me. Yeah, I know. What a dream. If the books are good, fine. Like if, you know, i would argue as much as I, well, we're almost a Sarah J Maas, but as much as I don't like Sarah J Maas and the Throne of Glass books took for fucking ever to read, you know, like there were some, there were some shining parts throughout those like nine books where i was like, okay, well, I feel, i feel good about this section of the storytelling, but
00:50:19
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know if Rebecca Garros has the same stamina in her as um Sarah G. Moss, but anyhow. Okay. Taylor Jenkins, read. ah On my smash list, but haven't haven't smashed it yet.
00:50:33
Speaker
I've only read Daisy Jones and the Six, and actually I listened to it and it was a very well done audio book. So smash tentatively. Tentative smash. Tentatively? Tentative smash. Yeah. I'm like, if you someone wanted to set me up on a blind date with this book, I would go.
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. Okay. All right. Sarah J. Moss.
00:50:56
Speaker
ah How many nights have I gone home from the bar with Sarah J. Maas? Too many to deny it, you know? My friends know exactly what's happening when that's at the library. I'm going home with it, and I'm reading it start to finish in like a day and a half.
00:51:14
Speaker
i I loved reading ACOTAR. I hated the pregnancy shit at the end. I thought that was so goddamn stupid. But I really enjoyed those books.
00:51:25
Speaker
I couldn't get all the way through the Throne of Glass series, which is funny because everyone says that's the better series. But I liked what I read. and then i i couldn't even get a full chapter into Crescent City. I was overwhelmed with jargon.
00:51:40
Speaker
And I know everybody's like, just get through the first like, 100 pages and it's like i don't i can't it's like i don't have the brain capacity right now to do that if i'm doing that much deep diving it is for someone who's paying me to do it yeah fair enough so you know like there's no denying i smash it but you know you regret it in the morning Yeah. I feel it in the morning. Yeah.
00:52:11
Speaker
It's a long walk home. Yeah. I mean, I read all, I read all of that guitar, I think except for the books that came after of the last book. And I skimmed through the last book. I was so over it by the time had like the epic battle. And i I, you know, forgot who was who. And I was like, I don't even know who some of these characters are anymore.
00:52:30
Speaker
Um, and then I did like throne of glass. There were some things in there that I thought were really sloppy and some like, you know, DSX machina shit that pissed me off. Um, but the alien is a much better protagonist than fair fair. Is that how we see her name?
00:52:47
Speaker
Fair. Fair. Fair. I think. um, illiterate Farrah and, uh, the Crescent City books are okay. And the fact that she's trying to make a multiverse is wild. Which is like, okay. Yeah, I do think that's really cool.
00:53:00
Speaker
enjoy seeing, I do. I think it's cool. I like seeing the fan theories online of like, who's really who and how the stories overlap together. um I think that's fun, but you know, it's, I feel the same way about the Marvel multiverse where I'm like, okay,
00:53:19
Speaker
I've had enough. i I contend that ACOTAR is this generation's twilight. Which I read the shit out of those books but like 10 years ago. i don't have a problem. Yeah, agreeing with that. I read some of those and my mom was like, send it to me when you're done.
00:53:35
Speaker
And I did send it to her. And when she finished it, she was like, child's play. Have you ever read the story of oh
00:53:44
Speaker
the same again. I don't think I've read that. Oh, you should. She had to read it in college for her like feminine literature class. Oh, OK. And I just kept thinking that.
00:53:55
Speaker
And you can you can like download the PDF for free online. okay OK. You want to get your boots rocked. do You want a book you can't read in public. Try the story of O. I'm telling you, if if you want something that has like a meaningful smut in it, but also incredible world building and politics, Jacqueline Carey's Kashiel's Dart series are just the cream of the crop.
00:54:18
Speaker
Everyone needs to read those books. Like thing is, the thing is like, that's, what's annoying is that Sarah J Maas exists in the same world as Jacqueline Carey and Jacqueline Carey doesn't have like half of the book sales that she's gotten. And she's such a better writer. It's like someone please recognize this incredible author.
00:54:35
Speaker
um but anyhow, I'll stop. I'll stop. And we'll just move on to Emily Henry. mesh Smash. Smash. I mean, I take Emily Henry home to meet my parents.
00:54:49
Speaker
Oh, okay. Reliable. Reliable. Good times. Makes me feel good. Easy to get through. Like, i I just love that she is giving me exactly what I want when I read those books.
00:55:03
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know if I would take Emily Henry home to meet my parents. I feel like Emily- I don't know that I'd marry but I would gladly have her have dinner with my parents. Yeah, I guess maybe.
00:55:14
Speaker
Sure. But then my parents will look at me and be like, this isn't going to be anything long term. You know what I mean? But she is super fun to read. I always forget. i completely forget about those books after I finish reading them.
00:55:27
Speaker
And then I'll look at the cover. They'll come up in my lippy and I'm like, did I read that book? i Well, I can't, yeah, I can't tell them apart. No. But that's sort of like everyone before my, my husband.
00:55:41
Speaker
Okay. Okay. um Speaking of people you might not take home to your parents, Penelope Douglas. You think we all have a Penelope Douglas phase?
00:55:55
Speaker
Listen, I really enjoyed those books. They're so taboo and kind of messy and, But I liked Credence. I recommended Credence to you. So yeah. And then I took Credence with me to um Costa Rica on our baby making moon.
00:56:11
Speaker
um And ah we didn't make a baby, but who did we try? So thank you, Penelope Douglas. Lord, Lord, Lord. Well, I think we saved the best for last.
00:56:24
Speaker
I mean, it's funny because I don't know, other than what I read about online, I don't know anything about this this woman's books, Colleen Hoover. I have heard so much smack talking and one of her books has just never made it to me. It's never appealed to me.
00:56:41
Speaker
Seeing that Blake Lively was cast as the lead, I was like, well, it's probably not for me. you're not a Blake Lively fan. You didn't, you weren't a gossip girl or a sisterhood of the traveling pants girl. oh I was a gossip girl, girl, but I was Leighton Meester girl. Thank you very much. yeah. I'm same.
00:56:58
Speaker
Same, same. know ah Tell me what's the big deal about Colleen Hoover? i um I think she's emotionally manipulative and kind of in her novel writing anyway.
00:57:13
Speaker
I read Verity. That's the only book that I've read. And it was, you know, pretty intense and violent and a little taboo. And then also just a little predictable at the end there.
00:57:24
Speaker
And it was fine. i wouldn't, I have not had the urge to pick up one other book of hers though. So for me, it's going to have to be a pass. Yeah. Mine's a pass.
00:57:35
Speaker
Okay. Didn't even realize she was in the bar. Okay.
Setting Weekly Writing Goals
00:57:40
Speaker
Well, that was fun. all right, Kelton. Okay. What are your goals for this week? My goal is to write 2,000 words. Okay. Maybe this week I write 1,000, but you know, this week I'm being more realistic.
00:57:54
Speaker
There's no rhyme or reason to what I'm doing. It's all based on how much I slept last night. Last night was very little. So this week we're doing 2,000 words and we'll see how it goes. Okay. I like it. I love it. All right. What's your goal?
00:58:05
Speaker
I'm going to finish revising my novel and figure out what the hell to do next with my life.
00:58:13
Speaker
And I'm not writing a query letter. i'm not doing that. and don't want to that. I feel like you should write a query letter to the person the person you're writing the book for. Okay.
00:58:26
Speaker
Like, to be like, listen, the book is finally here. That book you've been dreaming of reading your whole life, I wrote that book. This is what it is. Okay. Dear reader. I like that. Dear reader. Okay. And I encourage you all out there. If you're writing a book, write a letter to your reader. Yeah. Tell them what's coming.
00:58:41
Speaker
Get them excited. Make a fresh cup of coffee before you do it. That's right. I love that. Well, we did have some Q and A questions. We'll just have to get to them in the next episode. And we did have a reader write in and tell us their pantsing versus outlining strategy. So we'll cover that as well.
00:58:59
Speaker
Thank you so much to everyone who has written to us. We have gotten a few emails and we love to hear from you. So please continue to write to us. you can either send us a direct message on social at pen pals pod or email us at official pen pals pod at gmail.com. Nice.
00:59:16
Speaker
Happy writing. Happy writing, everybody.