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All Clothing Is Drag with Brett White
52 Plays1 year ago
This week, on an action-packed episode of Apocalypse Duds, “The Only Menswear Enthusiast Who Is Also a Drag Queen,” @brettwhite @barbhardly, schools us on The Most Stylish Mad Man, the importance of representation, the history of drag, old sitcoms, comic books, and more!
This is easily my (Conor's) stuffiest episode yet, my voice more nasal than I even thought possible. I think you'll enjoy it nonetheless, this was an amazing show.
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Transcript
Introduction of Apocalypse Duds Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, I'm Connor Fowler. And I'm Matt Smith.
Brett White's Arrival and Ash Wednesday Memories
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Apocalypse Duds. Today, we are joined by the radiant Brett White, AKA Barb Hardley, pop culture journalist and senior reporter slash producer for Decider.com, host of the must have seen TV podcast, curator of unlikely menswear icons and more. Happy Ash Wednesday to you, Brett. Hello. Yeah, this is the thing that clued me in that it's Ash Wednesday.
00:00:30
Speaker
Yeah, same. Same here. Yeah, I heard this morning and I was like, this is going in the show. Because it's always, it's always like you need to brace yourself. Well, back whenever, you know, New York City, when we would like actually leave our houses and whatnot, because it would always just be like, Oh my God, why is everyone covered in soot today?
Cultural Observations and Family Dynamics
00:00:48
Speaker
Cause I'm also, I'm from Tennessee and I always tell Yankees that it's like, we don't have many like Catholics and we don't have any Jewish people basically. Like that was coming to New York and finding out that everyone is Catholic. I was like, what is this? This is wild.
00:00:56
Speaker
Like,
00:01:08
Speaker
Yeah, I remember when I lived in New York, I would be like on the subway on the way to work, you know, Ash Wednesday at like noon, because the store opened at 1230. And I would just be like, for the first little while, I was like, why does everyone have like a soot dot on their head? Yeah, I do not understand this. And then I realized, but but like, I'm not religious. Like, yeah, I know. I know some about Catholicism, but I was like, Oh, this is this is weird.
00:01:38
Speaker
Yeah, everything I learned about Catholicism, I learned from my husband, who was raised Catholic. Oh, not much, not anymore. Yeah, well, it spreads in many different ways, doesn't it? It does, it does. I was raised Baptist, and like this one dude that I worked with years ago, who was actually not a great person, but this only stuck with me. He called himself a recovering Baptist.
00:02:06
Speaker
which kinda fits, kinda fits with the Catholic thing too. Yeah, the trauma that, yeah, both of us, we were bonded by our trauma. Nice, nice. None of our parents were at our wedding. Hey! Yeah. Is that too serious for like a minute into the book? Not at all, though. I'm an open book, I don't care. Yeah, we're an open book here. As much as you wanna be an open book here as well.
Living in New York: Experiences and Influences
00:02:32
Speaker
So you said different Tennessee, where are you now?
00:02:35
Speaker
I am in Queens, New York City, as far away as almost as you can get in Queens near JFK. Oh, dang, yeah. I mean, which sucks, but we have a three bedroom with a backyard and you don't get that in New York City. No. Especially for what we could afford, which we could afford this because we knew that it had sat empty on the first floor for like two years. And so we were like, hey,
00:03:04
Speaker
don't raise our rent we'll just move down so yeah we like are getting this for a lot cheaper oh that's you gotta you gotta work those deals in new york oh totally and also like no like no commute for the most part as long as you're in one of the boroughs is that bad it's all 45 minutes like i've always i've always no matter where i've lived in queen's been 45 minutes away from work yeah exactly exactly like i i lived in bushwick and worked on the les and
00:03:33
Speaker
Yeah, it was like a half hour, but dude, driving in Atlanta traffic is like hour and a half to go four miles. No, thank you. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. I'll take the 30 minutes sitting on the train listening to music and reading a book. Yeah. That's fine.
Fashion Influences: Family and Pop Culture
00:03:52
Speaker
Yeah. Coming from the South, what do people wear around you while you're growing up? What kind of stuff influenced your
00:04:02
Speaker
your clothing output? Well, I think like, so when I was a little kid, I mean, God, I'm just thinking about every one of my, I have a sister who's 12 years older than me and then my parents. Also, side question, how old are you?
00:04:20
Speaker
Oh, I'm 38 and some of my sisters. But I don't have old parents. My parents were 30 when they had me. My mom and my sister are young. So this is biography now. So they were all on softball teams, like church softball teams. So I'm just picturing the bike, not bike shorts, but bike the brand. Yeah.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yes. Like those shorts and stuff. That's what my parents and all that were. But I think my grandfather is the one who I probably inherited this from, which, I mean, I have a complicated relationship with my grandfather since he was a man born in, I'm assuming, the 1920s in rural Tennessee. He had a lot of the views that you would expect that to come with.
00:05:09
Speaker
and was also just kind of really mean to all the grandkids. But to his friends, which is what I found out at his funeral when I was a senior in high school, was like, oh, to his friends, he was the cut up and the practical joker. And he had a closet, him and my grandmother, for one thing, were a like Southern Baptist gospel singing duo. And they would like go to churches and sing together. I have their album.
00:05:38
Speaker
That's cool. Brought that home with me last time I went to Tennessee. And they were also an Eastern star, which is like a, I think it's like the coed masons. It's like the masons, but men and women are in it. Okay. Both of them. And so their entire life was doing Mason events and like traveling all over the country, just going to lodge meetings. And these things were formal events in like the seventies. And so my grandfather just had a collection of insane tuxedos.
00:06:12
Speaker
When I like point out men who I think look good in the 70s, I think like the thought could be, well, everyone dressed like that. You just like white lapels or something. But I have to point out like, no, my grandfather had a powder blue tux, a like lime green tux, a red, no, like a maroon houndstooth with velvet lapels tuxedo. And I've, I now have all the,
00:06:35
Speaker
And I'm saying like insane even by 1970 standards.
00:06:37
Speaker
I have all the jackets. Most of the trousers didn't make it. But I did bring all the jackets up with me. That's cool, man. In February when I came back. So yeah, it's like he inspired me in that way. Like looking at old Christmas photos and him wearing like a tie in a vest at our Christmas. And it's like, we are in your house. Why are you wearing that? Right.
00:07:04
Speaker
But, I mean, I didn't even really ever put that together until very recently that I was like, oh, that might be part of where this comes from. Dude, I feel like that's kind of how it goes, though. Yeah. Like, you don't, you know, you want to be different from your surroundings as a young person. And then your 38 or whatever in your 30s, like, you've got experience and you're like, oh, like, I look back on this and that totally makes sense.
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think like my, I got into clothes really, well, I mean, I feel like.
00:07:41
Speaker
Huh, I don't know how, I don't know how into close people are in high school, but I gave a shit about what I wore then too, but I was, I was inspired by Oz from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Tony Slattery from Whose Line Is It Anyway, and Weezer, Mikey Welch from Weezer. That was my, but like high, college, I was in college from 2002 to 2006, which is garage rock revival, and so.
Fashion and Well-being During the Pandemic
00:08:08
Speaker
or indie sleaze as I've heard things called lately, which, perfect. So like the Strokes and the Hives and the White Stripes and Yeah Yeah Yeah's and Interpol and like that was, but they're also mostly like the bands that inspired them, like Squeeze and XTC and Roxy Music and Bowie and et cetera. The Kinks, oh my God, the Kinks.
00:08:34
Speaker
So like that was my college, was like college rock. I had a radio show, you know, so I was, me and my friends, when we would go to shows, it was always like competing to be like, you know, who could be the most dressed up. Right, right. Which for us dressed up was like looking like we were contestants on a game show network show from 1971. So I had a lot of interesting things. Hell yeah.
00:09:03
Speaker
if it if it if
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah, because I came up, it was funny when I took my husband to Tennessee for the first time to meet all my friends. And then when like we hung out and then we got alone, he was like, okay, yeah, they're all like you. Okay. I mean, up here in New York, I'm like, oh, you know, I've been plucked out of my contacts, but it put me at like, we all love thrift stores. We all love indie rock. We all, et cetera. Hell yeah. Sure. Perfect.
00:09:50
Speaker
So I wanted to, at the beginning, shout out the uncanny bretwhite.com style section, which I think is really amazing. Uh, your website made it very easy to do research. So also great. I was going to ask you, I assume you're dressed, right? Uh, yeah, I've worn two outfits today.
00:10:10
Speaker
Hell yeah. That's what we like to hear. So if you want to run through them both, that's cool. If you want to only run through one, also cool. Up to you. I mean, I think this is where I can peel the curtain back on the process behind the Instagram.
00:10:25
Speaker
It's like, I wake up in the morning and I mean, so like this morning I put on, I'll go. So some vintage Cole Han Penny, no, horse bit loafers. I don't know what year they're from, but I just wanted some bit loafers and got them on eBay. Black with gold metallic bits. Bits, I guess that's what they are. And then some purple sheer socks, which,
00:10:54
Speaker
Every time I post a photo of myself wearing sheer socks, I feel the need to put in the caption, I understand that some of you are attracted to this. You do not have to tell me. It is so fun. It is so wild. It is unhinged, unchecked. It is just like they want you to know. I'm like, I get it. I get it. But I just wear these because they're nice socks. At one point, it's flattering, but also just very weird. We get it. We get it. This is the 10th time you posted this, whatever.
00:11:24
Speaker
Um, and then, and then some, oh God, where did the other spear McKay like, uh, gray trousers with, uh, like, I think it's like a light blue window pane pattern and then a proper cloth pink, uh, button down or button up with, uh, that's also another spear, uh, Navy double breasted.
00:11:43
Speaker
uh jacket that i cannot clothes hey hey these either and then a um oh a uh kerchief that a black and gold kerchief that i bought from uh balt baltzar whatever that swedish uh store is um and then my warby parker glasses uh yeah so i like i'll get dressed and then i will take photos in my office or outside maybe and then i'll wear that until like
00:12:13
Speaker
noon. Usually, I mean, usually I wear I stay dressed up until something I just get so angry at work or something. Something just like sets me off and I'm like, okay, I'm just getting out of this. And so then I put on my leisure outfit, which is just like bomba socks. Levi Levi five 10s. They're slim fit, but they're only but like they don't fit me on slim fit because my legs are so tiny.
00:12:43
Speaker
I'm a short person so it's like I have to get slim fit just so they will actually like fit me and then I have a spear linen field jacket and my possession black t-shirt possession the 1981 Isabella Johnny and Sam Neil a horror movie that is infamous and streaming on shutter if you want to get
00:13:08
Speaker
You want to see something real fucked up? All right. All right. I mean, you heard it here. Honestly, it sounds like, and we've talked about this on the show before, but it sounds like your leisure, quote unquote, outfit is probably like more thought out.
00:13:25
Speaker
or at least cohesive than 99% of the population on a family basis. My husband's just worn sweat pants. Well, nice sweat pants and hoodies. I'm not trying to drag him or nothing. Of course not. He's not going to listen.
00:13:43
Speaker
uh but it's because like he he just hasn't left the house and now that he has he's actually worked going to the office two days a week he's been buying a lot of clothes and like putting outfits together which is adorable uh and it's so like my like during pandemic my work from home was like suit like i was just like this is how i distract myself and make myself feel good so
Brett White's Writing Career Journey
00:14:10
Speaker
Yeah. So when did you start riding professionally?
00:14:15
Speaker
uh it kind of happened i think i always say 2008 um so this is my 15 year uh but i went to school at mtsu for yeah what what a life no seriously writing for 15 years professionally that's a big deal both of my parents are writers yeah yeah that's a good deal so what's to reward me with a literary agent this is the first of many times i would be begging for wondering this um all right i went to school
00:14:44
Speaker
I went to school for TV production and then I just didn't ever use that degree uh which is I don't know that's how that how that goes um yeah but in 2008 I got a job at wizard magazine which I think if you grew up in the 90s and liked comic books you read wizard it was the
00:15:01
Speaker
the magazine it was the only magazine that was just about comic books during the boom era but i got a job there in the conventions department and i was put in charge of like writing stuff for the conventions website like interviewing create we book a creator then i would interview them and etc and i even
00:15:20
Speaker
over my year there got to publish in the magazine which was cool and then so like just from that one year at that one job i've made lifelong friends because it was kind of like i always i now say i'm glad fire festival happened because i can now point to something and be like it was like working at fire festival
00:15:39
Speaker
That is what Wizard Magazine was like. It was wild. And I did not sign the NDA. I did not take a severance because I wanted to be able to talk about it. Oh, totally. Because I was like, no, I'm not taking a week's pay for this. But from that one job, like I've made life log friends who all work at Marvel and DC and Dark Horse and just
00:16:04
Speaker
I am super connected in the comic book realm. And so from that, I got into comic book journalism, which is a scam. I tell interns, uh, if you are interested in writing about comic books, uh, from a news perspective, get paid, get paid $40 an article is not enough. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like, uh, there are tons of.
00:16:29
Speaker
kind of clothing or fashion writing quote unquote opportunities that exist that are the same deal basically it's like we'll give you fucking ten dollars fifteen dollars write this write six pieces for us absolutely not no but i mean like that when you're so like when i started doing that that was 20 probably like 2010 um 2010 2011 is like when i really started doing like
00:16:54
Speaker
online journalism, and I don't really call it journalism, it's writing, whatever. That's an existential question. But that's when I started doing that. And at that time, it was like, Ooh, 40 bucks for, you know, for something. Okay, great. And it wasn't until I started talking to people that work in the TV, like writing about television and movies, I was like, Oh, we're getting screwed.
00:17:17
Speaker
His comics is like the lowest on the rung of importance in pop culture, so they don't pay a lot. Why do you think that is? Well, a lot of it is, I think, a lot of demand to write about this stuff.
00:17:39
Speaker
Writing about this stuff feels like a treat. It doesn't feel like work, because I love it. And so you get so hyped up on the coolness of it that you don't take a step back and be like, but objectively, I am putting in X amount of hours. And in order to live, I need Y amount of money. You're so like, I got to talk to Chris Claremont on my first day at Wizard. Oh my god. You're just like that. I'm going to C2E2 for free. That's great. But while I'm here,
00:18:07
Speaker
I'm only getting 40 bucks for covering a panel. Like, you know, so you just kind of don't even really pay attention to it. And also, I mean, I was young, like that was what I was doing in my twenties. And so I think also the older you get, it gets to be a little bit more like, uh, I need adult money, please. You kind of like figure out that, Oh, what I've been doing is basically undervaluing myself, like X amount and like,
00:18:37
Speaker
That is the thing that, uh, comes with both getting older, but also I think that that's like not a conversation that people under a certain age have really like had much, or sorry, over a certain age. Like, you know, we're, I'm 39, you're 38 Conners. Uh, sorry, Conner.
00:19:01
Speaker
These conversations didn't happen in the 90s and early 2000s. Even in the 90s, insanely, they did not happen. It's cool that you came from that perspective and now you're like, yeah, you kind of value me.
WandaVision Coverage and Career Highlights
00:19:21
Speaker
to buy my time, essentially. Well, it's also like realizing what you're good at. And I'm like, like, specifically, like when WandaVision happened at my job, which I am full time salary benefits, like this is a job job. I mean, I feel like it's one of the rare of writing about television and have
00:19:37
Speaker
But like when WandaVision happened, it's like, oh, this is a show that's specifically about classic sitcoms and Marvel superheroes. You mean the two things that I've dedicated my life to. My office is literally one wall is all old sitcoms and the other wall is all comic books, which when I interviewed the showrunner, yeah, the showrunner, I like showed her.
00:19:58
Speaker
It's like, here's my office. And she was like, Oh, my God. So it's one of those like, I am a unicorn for covering this. So you bet you like, you're lucky that you guys had me for that. Right, right. Yeah. So one of the most like knowledgeable kind of person, you are the man for the job. Yeah. So is that how you got to be where you are? Like you love all this stuff. And now you are writing about it. That seems like
00:20:26
Speaker
uh an uncommon journey yeah it's it is that's pretty much it because every every job i've gotten in this realm is all knowing some
00:20:37
Speaker
yeah it's all like the network king yeah and that all came from me just working at wizard for a year because even people that left wizard before me i now like knowing i'm friends with because we all you know suffered the same amount every thursday someone's getting fired you know like that um and if they skip weeks then it's like it's like a bake off or like we skipped a week so this week two people getting fired
00:21:03
Speaker
That was a fun year of my life. I made it to the final two of my department though, so I am pretty proud of that.
00:21:10
Speaker
Wow. Yeah, wow. The top two. Solid. Yeah. So, yeah, like that's where I've kind of just like, you know, I moved from. Wizard to the robots voice from Village Voice, and then I went to MTV splash page or was editor for there for almost a year. And then from there was CBR and Marvel dot com. Now Decider. So, yeah, I mean, like I it's been kind of a, you know, just knowing people and.
00:21:40
Speaker
making my way and making a little bit more money, a little bit more money until finally getting a full time job. Right. Right. Yeah. That sounds like a very, uh, uh, what's the word I'm looking for here? Just like insanely good path as far as like, like every, everything that came after thing before it, you're like, okay, cool. Like,
00:22:09
Speaker
bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and now you're here. Yeah. And now, yeah, now, I mean, I'm a member of the television critics association that got to go to Pasadena to the conference last month, which was like fun and gave me a reason to dress up. You're a blue check.
00:22:28
Speaker
Yes, which is wild because that is back in 2017 when they were like, if you just work on a media corporation, you can get one. And so I squeaked in, I think on Instagram especially, I squeaked in in the last wave of them doing that because now I cover Netflix reality shows a lot and a lot of them will DM me being like, how do you have this? I'm on a Netflix show and I can't figure it out.
00:22:55
Speaker
I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm not that important. I'm not. Oh, well. The good luck continues. It does. It does. No, until Elon Musk takes my scam of a check away on Twitter. Yeah, at least you're not paying $8.99 or whatever. Jesus. So what was the first piece that you were really proud of, right? I think, I mean,
00:23:25
Speaker
I'm trying to think if it was anything at CBR. I know I... Well, when I was at CBR, when I was actually there on salary-ish, I was guaranteed 40 hours a week for $25 an hour. I'll just say it. I don't care. He doesn't own the company anymore, so it doesn't matter.
00:23:49
Speaker
But like, you know, because I was like, I live in New York and you require me to go to red carpets and premieres and stuff. So I have to be paid a wage that allows me to live in New York and do all the things that you want me to do. Right. So, yeah. But like when I was there, since I was hourly, I was I actually had this time to do like really crazy stuff. Like I wrote the entire history of the X-Men villain Exodus, who was I mean, he's not obscure anymore, but he was pretty obscure then.
00:24:17
Speaker
And I just like, I bought all of his issues and then I like actually put together like a timeline. I did that for the Brotherhood of, no, I did that for the Hellfire Club as well. Like I would just do these really intense like research dives. And I was always really proud of doing those. And then the instant that the company sold and the new people were like, you get paid per article. It's like, well, I'm not gonna spend a week working on this one thing. So,
00:24:43
Speaker
a bye-bye to in-depth, you know, archival study stuff. Oh, but, well, yeah. More stuff at Decider, I've done cooler things since then, I would say. But yeah, that kind of stuff at CBR was always fun. Yeah. And it's like an early incarnation of what you see yourself as. Yeah. And yeah.
Exploring Queer TV History and Hayden Rourke
00:25:13
Speaker
So now you're working on a book about Hayden Rourke. Yes. Which I mean, gold star is to literally anyone who knows who he is. If you watched I Dream of Jeannie, you know. I know him from I Dream of Jeannie. He had this hero idea of what his name was or his story before.
00:25:36
Speaker
to this. But I grew up on a lot of classic television. So yeah, yeah. You know, it was just like, Oh, this is a really interesting topic for a book. And yeah, we'd love to take our love for you to tell us a little bit about it.
00:25:54
Speaker
Yeah, like I, for my podcast, must have seen TV, which is every episode we do an episode of television from before the year 2000 or as sitcom specifically. And in Pride Month 2019, I think, I always wanted to like, you know, highlight all the, you know, queer people that worked on all these old sitcoms because a lot of them like their stories aren't told because they were queer in 1960s. So, you know,
00:26:20
Speaker
And I discovered that Hayden, Dr. Bellows, and I dream of Jeannie, the old guy who was always like, trying to catch Major Nelson in the act. Always misses singing Jeannie. I found out that he was gay. And then so like a year later in 2020, and so like, you know, I made like a little image of like, Hayden Rourke, you know, sent that out on Twitter.
00:26:42
Speaker
and then in 2020 pandemic year for that month I was like okay well I am instead for pride month I'm going to try to do like hastily assembled uh you must remember this style like storytelling episodes where I like would choose I would choose a gay and then I would just like do an afternoon of googling
00:27:03
Speaker
and Google sleuthing, my favorite thing. And then have a little drink and then get on and just tell her story. And when I was done and I was telling my husband about Hayden's story, he was like, this is a book. You're clearly passionate about this. And I was like, oh, yeah. And I had just literally been like, I'm never going to write a book. It's way too hard.
00:27:25
Speaker
So I discovered his story of born in 1910 by World War II. So he meets his partner Justice Addis in the mid 30s, I do believe. I don't know how they met. I have three different theories based on where I know they were at different times. One of them might've been at a summer camp when he was a counselor and Justice was a student. Not their age difference is not creepy.
00:27:52
Speaker
Justice Addis, I'm sorry, I had a question in here just so that we could get the name out there, because what an amazing name. Well, and there's also, he was Justice Addis the third, and then there are two fourths. The Family Tree is wild, and it's honestly worth its own book.
00:28:12
Speaker
But so like they met, they went to the army together and in 1942, when you register for the army and if you had literally any type of theater or Broadway experience, they would just send you to New York to work with Irving Berlin because Irving Berlin was resurrecting his all army, like all soldier review show. So this isn't USO where they would take like,
00:28:33
Speaker
Jack Benny or, you know, Bob Hope and like show him off to soldiers and stuff. These are like, no, these are soldiers. It's like FUBU fight for us by us. It's, you know, for soldiers by soldiers, you know, right. And so like you would go and you would go through basic training and everything, but your job in the army and you got ranks and whatnot.
00:28:53
Speaker
was to do This is the Army, which was the song and dance review show that ran on Broadway. And then after it did Broadway, it did an American tour. They made a movie starring Ronald Reagan. And then in 1943, they went international and they toured the entire world. And so Hayden and Jess were like the stage managers and were like in Egypt and Iran and Italy and Singapore and just all over the place.
00:29:19
Speaker
And what is fascinating is a lot of these soldiers were of course gay and drag was a huge part of this. These soldiers dressed in drag for Uncle Sam to entertain other soldiers and no one had a problem with it Republicans.
00:29:35
Speaker
But I don't know if anyone knows Burl Ives, everyone's favorite claymation snowman from Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, was in This is the Army and did a drag number on Broadway. So yeah, I discovered all this. And then after that, him and Justice then took Lucille Ball out on her very first
00:29:59
Speaker
uh stage tour like she'd always done movies and she was like i want to do a play they did this play dream girl that is a super intense uh she's on stage the entire time multiple costume changes multiple different characters uh and it's a comedy and at the time she'd never done comedy
00:30:17
Speaker
And so Justice Addis directed her in her first ever comedy thing and Hayden was her co-star. And this is the part of Lucille Ball's story that everyone always skips over. But I've done the research and I've actually found proof that like she wanted to do this play and viewed it as her ticket to being seen as a comedian. Lucille Ball.
00:30:39
Speaker
Kind of a big deal. And then they bought a house together in the 1950s, which gay couples did not do. And they lived there until just died in 79.
00:30:54
Speaker
I dream of genie is a crazy like set because Larry Hagman was I mean, his mother is Mary Martin, who's like a Broadway legend. And so he kind of grew up like very well off. And also by the time genie happens, he's very into like LSD and counterculture.
00:31:13
Speaker
and is always on something and also thinks he's better than genie and and so like Hayden was this like mediating force and what is beautiful is like Hayden was always out and everyone always knew he was gay the cast would go over to his house um just would be there they would serve them drinks they would have parties like
00:31:34
Speaker
It's the story of a gay couple who were out in World War II touring with Lucille Ball, old Hollywood, McCarthy era, and I Dream of Jeannie, the 1970s, and they were never, and both of their families knew.
00:31:49
Speaker
Like, and that's also, and their families were crazy Catholic, like super, super Catholic and didn't have a problem with it. So it is like this little anachronistic gay love story that goes against everything we assume of like, you know, progression, acceptance and tolerance moves in a straight pun intended line. Right. And like, you know, right now we're the most tolerant we've ever been.
00:32:13
Speaker
that was a part of my pitch for this book in bed now not right yeah but you have to change that in the pitch but yeah but like this proves it like man if if like
00:32:27
Speaker
if Justice Addison's stepmother would let them sleep in the same bed, in the same bedroom with one bed in it in the 1950s and 60s, then like parents today have no reason. Like this is 70 years ago and people were fine with this.
Documenting Diverse Queer Histories
00:32:45
Speaker
So yeah, yeah. And it's been great. And I've interviewed a ton of people. I've done a ton of been working on this for
00:32:52
Speaker
two and a half years. I've written 50,000 words literary agents or anyone that might know a literary agent that wants to do it. Yeah, it's a labor of love that I want to finish. I feel like there's no way someone isn't going to pick this up.
00:33:14
Speaker
One of the things that I really point out is gay history. I don't care that he isn't an A-list person that everyone knows. The gay history has been robbed from us via AIDS and also the closet and bigotry. And you have to tell every single gay story because we just tell Rock Hudson and Paul Innes over and over and over.
00:33:42
Speaker
I love Paul Lind, I love Charles Nelson Riley, but Hayden's story is just as important because it is a different story. It's a story unlike any that we've heard. And the fact that I actually, so after just died in 79, Hayden had a second long-term partner from 1980 to when he passed in 1987, who I now know and am friends with and have had lunch with, who lives in New York, not that far from me.
00:34:09
Speaker
Uh, and, and no one knows about that story. Like no, cause you know, no one ever wrote about Hayden, no one ever wrote about him being gay. Um, but now like I have, it was why, like when I.
00:34:21
Speaker
This is how crazy it is. I've been working on the book for probably six months when I accidentally stumbled across this guy. And he was, when he said, oh no, we were a couple. And I was like, can you please just answer, was Hayden Rourke gay? And he was like, yes, he was absolutely gay. And it's that basic thing of,
00:34:43
Speaker
You have to infer a lot with history because gay men wouldn't say in the 1960s, 70s, I'm a homosexual. It's all like, well, you know, he would live with a man and never married. So you got to infer, you know, it's just like you have journalistic integrity of like you want to have like, you know, the facts.
00:35:05
Speaker
And with a lot of these queer history stories, you're never gonna know a lot of the facts because everyone's dead. And that's one reason why I was like, I have to tell Hayden's story because Barbara Eden's the only person left from Jeannie who's alive. And so I have interviewed her, et cetera. But yeah, I don't know. I'm very passionate about it. And I also have 130 photos of them from World War II that have never been seen before. And like gay soldiers doing the can-can and the sands of Persia,
00:35:33
Speaker
wild just it's really it's yeah it's just wild fun uh like them posing nude at like the ruins of rome like acting like roman statues and i'm like man like even with 1943 cameras people were still like taking stupid photos oh absolutely yeah yeah i i will say this has been a great pitch to read this book just you know the the passion that you put into it and
00:36:02
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah, just like the whole thing, man. It's just really, really cool to hear. And he was a very snazzy dresser. Oh, absolutely. Specifically, his partner, when we met up for the first time, he brought, he was like, oh, I was going through my storage unit and I found these old things from Hayden's and it was a pocket square and a Speedo. Wow. And so I have one of Hayden's swimsuits and a pocket square. That's amazing. And I was like, that's wild.
00:36:32
Speaker
Wow. So you describe Hayden as part of the gay TV tapestry.
Mad Men and Queer Representation in Media
00:36:41
Speaker
We wanted to talk about another gay TV icon, Brian Bat, who played Sal Romano in Mad Men. When you first saw Mad Men, did you include him in Pantheon? I was kind of surprised that they like when we were talking about this show, like
00:37:00
Speaker
I was a little surprised to find out that he was gay. Because I didn't think that they cast gay people for the most part. It is surprising. The 2007, certainly. Yeah, yeah. Especially him being out gay. It is actually crazy how much things really change from 2007 to 2017. I felt like a lot of progress had been made between 97 and 07, but a lot made between 07 and 17.
00:37:29
Speaker
um but like my like honestly like my madmen uh men or style icons were always harry crane and laine price okay solid solid yeah it just says yeah especially hollywood era as soon as harry starts working in television they start shipping him out to california so he comes back and he's wearing like mustard colored jackets and huge kerchiefs and i'm like this is
00:37:53
Speaker
Yeah, those sideburns and big glasses. Yeah. Connor and I have talked to Madden a lot because I think that like, I mean, all three of us seem to be around. Yeah. Like that time period and age where you're just like, this is the coolest thing I've ever seen. And I go back and rewatch it all the time.
00:38:13
Speaker
yeah the Christmas episode where they have the party in the office and they have to like really uh please the gay cowboy like right but like that that every year when I watch that and they have just like the the office party and it's like Christina Hendrix like leading the conga line through the office and I'm like for all of these people
00:38:34
Speaker
for a lot of these people, they're just Hollywood extras. And at this day, they got to go put on period appropriate clothing and have a Christmas party at Sterling Cooper Draper Price and do a conga line with Christina Hendricks. I think that might be like the most perfect day of work ever. Oh, totally, totally. So kind of continuing this theme, like,
00:39:01
Speaker
since the dawn of like internet hashtag menswear, whatever, you know, the internet culture that we're kind of in and kind of all three come from people like Marlon Brando and James Dean who theory on, on the record being at least by. Yeah, yeah. If, you know, who's to say, but like, how, how do you kind of like,
00:39:30
Speaker
see these people that were worshiped as style gods in the year 2023. I mean, I, Cary Grant is the one that I'm like, so proud of because Cary Grant also, at least bisexual, maybe full on gay, who knows? Right, right. But it's just like those guys, I'm like, it makes me so, I mean, it's like, oh, yeah,
00:39:54
Speaker
got one is kind of this because I will say like when I started getting more into menswear like circles and whatnot you know just from like outside reputation because I didn't really start listening to the podcast and stuff until like 2017 and like at that point like I already knew Roger Stone was a person you know like I knew like there was there's a weird there's a unfortunate correlation between
00:40:17
Speaker
man who cares about what he looks like also might help in a insurrection, you know, like, so, and just coming from the south where everyone over the age of 40 was just conservative period. They're Republican. I have like an ingrained, like, you know, listening, keeping an ear open to be like, is it okay if this person knows I'm gay? So like that all kind of ties together. And so it was always like,
00:40:43
Speaker
easing in and like I don't really I honestly like don't know that many like game in in like the classic menswear realm either I know a handful we are you know we DM we know who we are we commiserate or whatever but like
00:41:01
Speaker
It is overwhelmingly, I think, like, straight. And so when we have these guys, I'm like, yeah, you love Cary Grant. He's definitely a flamer or whatever, you know, like, yes, I got one. And I also like and I like that, you know, in a
00:41:23
Speaker
I do think it is very important. That's why I think representation of being vocal about things is important because if you're a homophobe and you fucking love James Dean, you love how he dresses, you love all these movies and then you find out that he's bisexual, that's gonna do some sort of reckoning in your brain. Either you're gonna just double down on homophobe and be like, well, I can't look at his face again. Or maybe you're gonna be like, oh God, the man I think is the most macho man in the world.
00:41:49
Speaker
Also likes having sex with men. Oh God. Okay. I guess, you know, good for Brando. Good for me to appreciate, but not partake in, you know? So, so yeah, I think that like things like that are good for a representation, which is also, I mean, that's why I'm a, that's why I'm very vocal. I think, uh, loud on online.
00:42:14
Speaker
Yeah, we noticed a quote, I think it was one of your Instagram captions, but essentially the message of it was like that being gay can coexist fabulously with masculinity.
Exploring Masculinity and Fashion Identity
00:42:30
Speaker
Oh yeah. There's a lot of noise about societal pressures and whatnot, you know, that you can't be masculine and gay. Yeah, how do you, you know,
00:42:42
Speaker
How do you approach that? How do you express that in your habit all day? Yeah. Like, menswear really has helped me square a lot of that stuff away because, you know, growing up, especially growing up in the South, like, I spent my 20s, like, just dressing like a stroke, you know, just like, okay, jeans, corduroy blazer, a jean jacket, you know.
00:43:05
Speaker
uh children's uh polo shirts back when i can actually wear like a child's extra large oh yeah yeah but like you know because it was just like that was just all i had i didn't think that you know because when i saw men
00:43:20
Speaker
masculine like male identifying you know assigned male at birth people they were always just wearing like shitty khakis and like they're like you're either wearing jeans and a t-shirt or khakis and a polo never anything more complicated etc and so like i didn't really understand there could be anything else and it wasn't until i like started
00:43:45
Speaker
It wasn't until I started like actually investigating men's wear and stuff, it seemed like, oh no, I can wear literally anything I wanted, like, you know, turtlenecks, high-waisted pants, double-breasted suits. I mean, ascots and necrochis have always been my thing. And also like realizing, like looking at those photos of like Hayden and then also like Paul Lind and Charles Nelson Riley especially, and seeing like, no, like,
00:44:11
Speaker
this like when I dress up like you know other people might think I'm copying like a milady type guy but no I'm trying to take that back for Paul Lind who also wore hats and so like
00:44:29
Speaker
and I think I at times have described my style as like either like take really like take gay clothes and make them more masculine or take masculine clothes and make them more gay like that's those are the two arenas that I like to operate in like even like to yeah like today wearing purple socks and a pink shirt that's why man
00:44:54
Speaker
when I don't visit like the Facebook groups and the Reddits and whatnot but when I hear tell of the men you were just like a man doesn't wear color right right it's unbecoming to miss patterns or all that like stuff and I just like I'm like god
00:45:14
Speaker
Chill, man. Yeah, I'm trying to clear it up, you know? Yeah. Like, it's not going to be like that anyway. Yeah.
00:45:25
Speaker
It's just like, just to have fun. Like I don't know, there is, I don't, I don't, I don't understand the like, I personally don't understand the checklist style of dressing or it's like, well, I like this, not even just Ivy, I like specific like, you know, Wisconsin 1982 Ivy. That is what I like. So I want to make sure that I have the correct shirt and trousers and shoes. Like I don't understand. I mean, you know, I will not clock anyone.
00:45:53
Speaker
If you love that, fucking go off, have fun. I personally don't really care about that. I mean, it can almost become cosplay. I understand that people enjoy it. I have my quirks that I only like. But yeah, there's never been a checklist. There's never been a, I have to have this, this, and this to complete this look.
00:46:23
Speaker
And I also like, I'm not even like a brand. I don't really, I don't care where I get anything. It's like, cause like, so like both of my, you know, uh, custom suits are both from suit supply, but I don't think anyone would ever recognize them as suit supply suits because I have them. That's a question we were going to ask. Yeah. Like I remember somebody asked you where you got your glasses and you were like Warby Parker and there was like sort of a wince, but like, uh,
00:46:50
Speaker
It doesn't fucking matter where it is from if it looks good, right? I mean, to an extent. To an extent. To an extent. Well, it's like as long as they aren't like unethical. But I mean, that's what I mean. That's what I mean. Capitalism. But we're all trying to get back. You should try to get stuff made by adults.
00:47:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. But like, when I wanted to get my first ever like, well, the story of my first, my green suit is funny. I don't know. Like I, I was like, I bought a suit supply suit in like 2008 or 2009, just like a gray basic ass suit. And I just like had went there and had tried one off the rack and then they just like altered it.
00:47:31
Speaker
And so I made an appointment. I like, okay, I want to make an appointment. And I like looked at all the, I went to the, like, I'm going to go to this store. So I looked at all the profiles of all the like sales associates, like all the like, um, you know, tailors, the assistants or whatever. And I then of course found them on Instagram just like did, but like, did the due diligence to be like, do I like this person's, is this person's taste aligned with mine?
00:47:56
Speaker
You know, like, which I think is like a good way of doing that so that, you know, like you're going in and you're not going to have to argue with like, no, I do want white. It's like, no, because like they wear them. So, you know, they like them. And I found Josh Cooper, who now works at the armory in New York. And I went in and I thought that I was I thought that I was going to do the same thing of like take one off the rack and it like and I had accidentally booked an appointment with like the mate to measure.
00:48:23
Speaker
the whole cloth. We're going to take all your measurements. We're going to get fabric that isn't available off the rack. And now it's like, oh, this is.
00:48:32
Speaker
almost three times as expensive as what I would but I was like well let's go for it and I just but like I'm glad I did because like this shade of green I wanted to get a green double-breasted suit and the kind that I was gonna buy off the rack was a winter fabric and Josh was like well here's that exact same shade but it is in a summer like year-round fabric
00:48:54
Speaker
Which to me is like, well, that's worth my money because I can wear that all year. And yeah, and it was like such a it was such a fun experience and it is totally worth the money because it is just cool to be able to ask someone questions and talk about this stuff.
00:49:12
Speaker
and like ask like, cause I was like, why do, why a hand stitched a buttonhole on the lapel? You know, like kind of fun stuff, you know? Uh, like what, what is the perk of like a two pleats or a one pleat, you know? And, and, and I, yeah, it was just a really, really fun experience. I mean, that it's like going to a spa or something for me.
00:49:34
Speaker
You're treating yourself. Yes, it's very treat yourself 2000. That was 2016. I think, right? Yeah. Yeah. I also feel like some people maybe don't know. Sorry, I just wanted to add. I also feel like a lot of people, if you're on the streets of New York City, you see that suit, you're like, damn, that's a good suit. No one is wearing that kind of suit.
00:50:01
Speaker
all the time. And it's like, oh, who cares if it's from Suicide Supply? Nobody gives a shit anyway.
00:50:07
Speaker
Yeah. And, and I think like, and so like, I mean, sousa play just in general, like it is wild being a gay man going into this store. And there are just like the advertising of sousa play is just wild. Yeah. It's just like men in like very nice suits, but they were like naked women, like blowing like bubblegum bubbles into their face or something weird, you know? And I'm just like, what is this? Like doc Charney, doc Charney. Yeah. Yeah. It's very like, yeah. American apparel grew up, you know? Right.
00:50:37
Speaker
Yeah. Not my five. So it's sort of closing out here. We're going to ask you how you got into drag. Oh, yeah.
Drag as Self-expression and Identity Exploration
00:50:50
Speaker
That I am the only menswear drag queen. Are you? You should trademark that shit. Yeah.
00:50:58
Speaker
And I'm not, and it's like, I'll be specific. Like I'm not a menswear drag queen, but I think I might be the only menswear enthusiast who was also a drag queen. So yeah. But no, I mean, like I love RuPaul's drag race. And like, that's one of my main areas of expertise and one of my main beats at work is drag race. And I've been writing about it since like 2017 or so.
00:51:24
Speaker
And so like it's always been like and honestly like and this is like what I try to preach to people is before I started doing actual like dressing as a woman drag I consider my suits drag. I mean like it's
00:51:38
Speaker
I personally believe anytime you put on literally any garment of clothing, knowing that another human being is going to lay eyes on it, that is a form of drag. Because all drag is, is using clothes to tell a story, to tell, you know, to project something. And anytime you put on literally anything, you're projecting
00:52:00
Speaker
something onto someone. And so like, every time I would interview drag queens at work, I would always go to work wearing, you know, a suit, my pinky ring, my watch, my ID bracelet, you know, pocket square lapel pin, like I would go all out because I'm like, they're coming here in full drag.
00:52:19
Speaker
I should not show up in a t-shirt and jeans, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. And like, they always appreciated the effort of like, oh, and I'm like, yeah, I mean, it took me, you know, 30 minutes to put on all the sun. And now I know that it took you about three hours to put all that on. But it wasn't, I honestly like never, I was like, I will obviously never do drag because it is very hard. And it wasn't until
00:52:45
Speaker
uh, last June when I was in Palm Springs, uh, we were on a vacation in Palm Springs and the Friday of that vacation is when they overturned Roe v. Wade. And I remember I was like, I was just like, oh, cool. So, I mean, who knows how much longer I'm married? Like, you know, who knows? Everything is, this is fucking wild. And I just was like, I'm doing drag. When we get back to Tennessee, I am going to be a drag queen. I'm doing it.
00:53:12
Speaker
And I immediately that night DMed one of my close friends from high school. I DMed him because he's a drag queen in Chicago, mini pearl necklace. And I was like, what courses did you get? What padding? How do I figure out my bra size? It's just everything. And he was so excited, giving me all the information, makeup tutorials, et cetera. And so the more I thought about it, I was like, this is,
00:53:43
Speaker
Perfect, this is what kind of what I was born to do in a wild way. Specifically because like, I want everyone in Tennessee who knows me to now know a drag queen. Because odds are they don't. Like I'm in New York, I know drag queens. My parents don't know any drag queens, you know, my old teachers or my old high school like classmates.
00:54:10
Speaker
Drag queens are under attack then and well now it is, it'll be a felony soon in Tennessee to do it in front of people under 18. And I wanted to be like, now you know a drag queen, you know me. I am a drag queen. And then so yeah, that was like eight or nine months ago. And just yeah, like the more I've done it and committed to it, the more like liberating and perfect it is. Like it is amazing.
00:54:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, drag, drag, liberating and perfect. It is. I just want to get I'm typing the quote. I want to get it right. Oh, my God. I think that that's I think that that's great. I mean, it is it is wild how
00:55:02
Speaker
like, I mean, it is a lot like it takes me a private takes me probably about 90 minutes to put on the makeup. And then it probably takes me another 15 to 20 just to get on like all of the padding and the corset and the pantyhose and then like another 15 to get on like the dress and all the like it is a long app is a long ass process. And it is wild to me that like wearing all of this clothing makes you feel
00:55:32
Speaker
I mean, RuPaul always says that drag reveals who you are, it doesn't hide who you are, and I now understand what that means. I don't know how to explain, but it is like, when you are wearing that much stuff, it kind of gives you permission. I know, I found that for me, it gives me permission to act feminine in a way that I didn't even know I was repressing, which I think is like, wild.
00:55:56
Speaker
Well, I did not even know that I was monitoring how I hold my wrist or how I walk or how I say something. And it isn't until that I'm dressed like a woman that I realized like, oh.
00:56:09
Speaker
Like, yeah, I just like subconsciously, you know, have learned like, don't swing your hips when you walk it, or just like things like that. And it is so cool how freeing it is. Well, yeah, I hear that at the school the fucking time, like they scream at the kids like, don't put your hands on your hip, that's gay. Oh my God, yeah. Dude, what do you mean? What do you mean that's five years old is what that is.
00:56:36
Speaker
Oh, Jesus. Yeah, like that. And that's exactly what I grew up in in Tennessee. And a lot of that, like, you know, I would see this with my younger nephews of going out to a store and my, you know, parents or brother in law relatives like grabbing a Barbie and being like, we're going to get you a Barbie for Christmas. Like,
00:56:55
Speaker
And just like that stuff is like, they don't mean anything by it. But what they don't understand is if my nephew is gay or ever questioned, like that is going to stick with him. Because all that stuff stuck with me forever.
00:57:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's all innocent stuff, but it's like don't tease like kids about that stuff because you don't know what life you're giving you might be giving them a wild a wild Issue they're gonna have to like go to therapy or do direct work through but then also just oh Yeah
00:57:35
Speaker
i was thinking it i'm glad that oh yeah oh my god oh yeah i mean also just um and we all love buying clothes and buying clothes is buying yeah drag is amazing it's now now it's like doubly fun like yeah yeah that's what my maybe i've got a new maybe i got a new hobby yes i like it is it is really
00:57:59
Speaker
cool now, like, when I go into a store, I can look at both the men and women's sides, which is, I did, it's, it's cool. Like, I mean, like, it's like, oh, I now have like double the stuff to look at, especially like vintage shopping, because that's, you know, that's Barb, Barb Hardley's, uh, aesthetic is sixties to the eighties. So that's finding, and, and, you know, I mean, I'm five, six, 180 pounds. So like.
00:58:28
Speaker
I'm still kind of in the range of I can find things. I'm not tall, which I think is a downfall of a lot of kings.
00:58:35
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah but that's why heels were a bit yeah and still learning how to uh not an easy task for sure but it is yeah it is well and i think also like so my christmas special which is a wild sentence that i can now say i mean i made a very barb hardly christmas which is on youtube but i did a duet number uh bing Crosby's jingle bells which is him and the andrew sisters
Drag Performance and Historical Connections
00:59:02
Speaker
And I did a duet with myself. So it's like, oh, like kind of, I did it like the old Patty Duke show or, you know, the split screen where, you know, I did. And so, yeah. And what if I didn't see it.
00:59:16
Speaker
On one half, I'm wearing my tuxedo, my vintage tuxedo with my waistcoat and probably my pocket watch and jewelry and stuff. And on the other side, I'm wearing a gold sparkly mini dress and my blonde wig. And I'm duetting with myself. And I like being able to bring in my menswear into my drag.
00:59:43
Speaker
Hell yeah. No, this is amazing. This is amazing. I can't believe I didn't fucking see this. I'm watching the video right now. It's like as described, as described, both characters are breath. Yeah, which was I had to do the drag part first and then not touch my phone and then get completely out of drag and then get into tuxedo drag, which was a long night, but it was worth it. That's a great bow tie.
01:00:12
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, yeah. You have to send that to me. So we're going to put this we're going to put this shit up. We're putting a screenshot of this on the carousel for the episode for sure. This is amazing. But yeah, I mean, I yeah, it's a it's a super passion and I'm really hoping I can perform more and actually get out into the world and not just do it in my office.
01:00:37
Speaker
Yeah, good luck with it. Yeah, I've done it twice out in the world, and it's gone amazingly, so. Hell yes. Only up from here. Yeah. So I feel like we have to ask, do you find some connection between the canon of people like Cary Courant or Peyton Rourke that you love and respect and the drag portion of your life?
01:01:07
Speaker
Well, I mean, yeah, like, yeah, when I get in drag, it also feels.
01:01:14
Speaker
like, because I have a photo of Hayden in drag from World War Two. At the end, at the end of This is the Army, they all in Hawaii got on the battleship and did just like a crazy show. And I have a photo of Hayden in drag from that. And, you know, I have pictures of Paul Linden. Like when I got when I get in drag, I do feel a I'm very into my gay forefathers and like knowing my my history of I mean, it is my culture. It is my people like it is totally and and it is a history that I love knowing and
01:01:44
Speaker
knowing that gay men like Hayden loved dressing up, had a huge wardrobe, kept everything he wore on genie. And then also did drag or loved female impersonator. I have a photo of Hayden with Charles Pierce, who was the most successful drag queen of the 20th century before RuPaul. So I have photos of Hayden with very close friends with Charles Pierce.
01:02:10
Speaker
And so I do feel it, I'll look in the mirror and just be like, I'm gay. Like I am a gay man. I am dressed like a woman. I am just like my gay forefathers. It feels very like emotional, almost ceremonial, like this clothing. And it is really cool. And that's an amazing answer. Yeah. I think about, I'm too much of a thinker. I think about everything.
01:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, some of us have the curse. Yeah, never stops. No. Well, Brett, this has been a very fun and just, I don't know, wonderful interview overall. And yeah, we always like to give our guests a chance to shout things out. So have at it.
01:03:05
Speaker
Uh, yeah, everyone can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at at Brett white. You can follow my drag account. I'm on tick. I'm on tick tock. I don't really know what I'm doing. Uh, mainly cause I wait until I'm in full drag and then I try to figure out tick tock and it's not, I mean, drag isn't comfortable. You would, would you get the character really does go away. The pain of.
01:03:32
Speaker
Everything goes away and you're like really in it, but like, yeah. So maybe I should figure it out when I'm not in drag. Um, but yeah, I'm on tick talk and Instagram as at Barb hardly B A R B H A R D L Y, which is a play on, uh, Bob Hartley, Bob new heart's character from the Bob new heart show.
01:03:54
Speaker
And yeah, and you can read my words at decider.com and listen to the podcast, Mustang TV, which I host in drag. And there's a video, you can go to YouTube and see probably like two out of three episodes I'm in drag. And it is, it's fun. It's fun talking about 1950s television while dressed as a woman.
01:04:18
Speaker
100%. That, that is one of the most you things based on this interview that I've ever heard. Well, thank you again, Brett. Um, everyone. Thank you for listening. I am Matt Smith. And I'm Connor Fowler. Uh, at a pocket of studs on Instagram. A pocket of suds at gmail.com. If you want to send this feedback, we kind of like it. Um,
01:04:45
Speaker
Oh yeah, sorry. I'm at Revel's Ropes. Connor is at Connor Fowler. Fuck that one up. But yeah, thanks for listening. And Brett, thank you again. Thank you.