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Trail Running Series: John Kelly on Longevity at the Top
12.6k Plays1 year ago
Steve and Alyssa are joined by the first special guest of the trail running podcast series, John Kelly. John is a prolific runner, data scientist and father to four. He has successfully taken on everything from Ironman World Championships, fast marathons, multi day FKTs, 200 mile races and last but not least, his two time finish of Barkley Marathons.
The three kick off with John’s experiences racing and adventuring while balancing a full time job, a family of four and the subsequent time constraints. John explains his decision making process with racing and the rates of success he expects in taking on lofty goals. They also discuss John’s evolution in his relationship with competition and how he deals with failure and success. This is a conversation not to be missed with an athlete who has years of wisdom and experiences to share.
You can check out John's adventures here: https://www.randomforestrunner.com/ or find him on Instagram @randomforestrunner
Visit us at www.uphillathlete.com, email us at [email protected] or see us on instagram @uphill_athlete
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome
Introduction to Uphill Athlete Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
to the Uphill Athlete Podcast. Our mission is to elevate and inspire all mountain athletes through education and celebration. My name is Steve House and I will be your host today along with Alisa Clark.
Meet John Kelly: Athlete and Data Scientist
00:00:26
Speaker
Today we are discussing longevity, balancing family life with big challenges, and tackling a huge variety of distances and successes. We have an incredible guest who needs little introduction. John Kelly is a prolific runner, data scientist, and father to four, plus a border collie.
00:00:47
Speaker
He has successfully taken on everything from Ironman World Championships, fast marathons, multi-day FKGs, 200-mile races, and last but not least, his two-time finishes of the Barkley marathons. We could keep going, but we'll stop there for now. John, thanks for being on the show. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here and looking forward to our discussion.
00:01:11
Speaker
Yeah, me too. So
Overcoming Rhabdomyolysis: A Runner's Challenge
00:01:12
Speaker
I actually think that we've met before where I very awkwardly introduced myself at Tour de Jean. Did you first run it in 2019 or 2021? I ran it in both years. I've yet to have a good race that I'm happy with you there yet, so headed back to hopefully get that this year.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, my last my last result there was a belt with rhabda that resulted in a DNF 50 miles in so holy cow. Yeah Wow it is
00:01:50
Speaker
I'll go on a slight tangent and then we'll get back to it. But yeah, I was just saying to my friend, it's just like everything it tore is bigger. Like it's just this it's so big, I can barely wrap my head around it. I had altitude, altitude induced bronchitis and then was having basically like fainting spells at altitude, which super odd and not super safe. So yeah, I've
00:02:12
Speaker
two dnfs at tour and it is also somewhat of my kryptonite as well so i feel you on that it's just it's an absolutely beautiful course an incredible place uh but you know it's it's important to remember no matter no matter how many of these things we do that there are always odd combinations of variables that can lead to
00:02:36
Speaker
these sort of disastrous results, no matter how experienced we are. And so, you know, it's important to be on the lookout for those things. And I'm certainly glad I didn't try to push through that in my last experience at Tor. OK, so I got to come in and ask the Gumby-Newbie question. What exactly happened?
00:02:56
Speaker
I didn't catch. So rhabdomyolysis is something I've always kind of associated more, to be honest, with people that hop into- Like CrossFit. CrossFit, yeah. Yeah. And go way too hard, way too fast. And it's a condition basically where your muscles break down faster than your body can process it and it can lead to acute kidney failure, which is quite bad news.
00:03:26
Speaker
So I was I was able to recognize that you know this this isn't normal like there are always those normal low points and tough spots and pains and everything else that you experience in ultras, but It was it was not normal I was
00:03:48
Speaker
not able to get any fluids down, puking my guts out at a nade station. My urine was quite the concerning color. And I called it at that point. And the symptoms the next few days certainly confirmed that. But I stopped early enough to where I was able to essentially just drink a liter of water per hour.
00:04:15
Speaker
and get things flushed out and fully recover from that, but it can definitely be a dangerous condition if you don't catch it in time and get the care that you need. Yeah, I think that that's a great reminder. I've actually had, I was peeing blood during an attempt on the Penhodi Trail the first time I did it and
00:04:38
Speaker
I
Recognizing Serious Physical Symptoms in Athletes
00:04:39
Speaker
think that it's, I mean, not great, obviously that it's happened, but it's great that we're bringing this up as distance runners, saying that it is a possibility in the longer events for this to happen and for us to be aware of it. Because I think that sometimes there's the mentality of
00:04:56
Speaker
Oh, it will go away or I'll just keep pushing and we have to recognize that a rhabdo is something that happens in longer distance events and be it's not something to mess with. It's not something that we can just say, Oh, it will get better. It's final. Just take a break. It is quite dangerous if you let it continue too far. So
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, and for me, I've done things that have been harder, faster, hotter, longer, higher elevation. Like none of those individual factors at Tour de Jean could cause that, but there's so many variables in this sport that there are always going to be unique combinations that we haven't seen before.
Mental Resilience in Racing
00:05:39
Speaker
And I think it was the
00:05:42
Speaker
the altitude, a bit of dehydration, the vert, some life stresses that I had at the time all just kind of came together into this perfect storm that gave me this result. So it's just, that's always one of the most, been one of the most important things to me as I've gained experience in this sport to recognize the difference between what is discomfort and what is danger.
00:06:12
Speaker
Yeah. And I know we're totally off script, but I want to dig in on this because I find this so interesting that, you know, it's this, it's sort of you, you have to have this nonjudgmental approach to, to these things, right? To stay safe. And it's very much the same in alpinism where, you know, you may want to keep going.
00:06:35
Speaker
you know, you may want to finish the race, you may want, but it is what it is. And you just, you have to just bring a certain amount of acceptance to that and make the right decision. And then you also, as I can tell from just watching you and listening to you, you're completely comfortable with that decision, right? And how, how, how great is that that, you know, you can have that sort of Zen approach to it. And that's great.
00:07:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's definitely not a decision I wanted to make. I had made the trip, spent tons of time preparing for this, had people there supporting me. That was even the bigger thing for me. I had crew out there that were giving up their own time to see me be successful in my race. And then I had to look and say, I'm sorry. I can't go on with it.
00:07:29
Speaker
it was a tough, uncomfortable decision to make. But afterwards, you know, I'm 100% comfortable with the fact that I made it and knowing that it was the right thing to do. Yeah, I want to actually dig into that a little bit because I think it's something and wow, we're talking to someone who literally just was the second time finisher at Berkeley and all we've talked about is the DNF. But I do think that this is interesting for people because we don't get to hear about this side of
00:07:57
Speaker
the events as much. But how was your mental state after tour? How did you deal with that? Because I've dealt with so like I said, I've DNFed tour twice. And the backside I think is actually the most interesting part rather than the successful races.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, and it's something that for me, it was tough because I kind of had a string of DNFs or results that I wasn't happy with. And for me, my approach to ultra running or endurance events in general has always been to swing
Goal Setting for Growth in Running
00:08:40
Speaker
for the fences, to go for the big challenge,
00:08:44
Speaker
I reach farther than what I might think is currently possible for me and to be okay with the fact that failure is a likely option. Well, not option, but likely result. But still, when you get a string of those,
00:09:04
Speaker
in a row it hurts and you start to doubt yourself and you start to wonder if you know maybe you're skipping and can you get back to where you were. Fortunately I have since then and I think a big part of that is being able to
00:09:22
Speaker
accept that outcome and to look at it rationally and see what I can learn from it and how to use that going forward rather than having the mindset of, you know, coming away from that just blindly trying to train harder and do more and keep going and risk a worse injury or burnout at that point. Yeah.
00:09:49
Speaker
How do you think about that? And John, like you said, you like to swing for the fences. And if I come out as an alpinist, you know, I would, I liked to think for my, for example, Himalayan trips that I was aiming for success rate of between 30 and 40%.
00:10:11
Speaker
And so if I was almost expecting almost 60% of the time to not do what I set out to do, do you think you're a data scientist? I mean, you're probably clearly a logical person and you think this way, you think analytically.
00:10:29
Speaker
Do you have a, when you go for these big things, you think that, I mean, obviously not that many people have completed Barclays. Like you gotta just realize like, Hey, there's only a certain amount of first chance that this is all going to come together for me today.
00:10:44
Speaker
Yeah, I've noticed the past few years, in general, I tend to attempt about three of these really big things per year, whether it's Berkeley or a multi-day FKT or something like Tor, and I
00:11:10
Speaker
I'm usually successful in about one out of those three. So that fits right along where you are there. It's a great year if I'm successful in two out of the three. And I think everyone's threshold is different in terms of what can keep them motivated and keep moving forward. To me, there's sort of this Goldilocks zone of difficulty where it's
00:11:33
Speaker
It's hard enough to remain interesting to you, to not be boring. But it's not so hard that you get frustrated and quit. So for me, that's around where that zone is. And I think that the better metric for me, rather than looking at percent success, is looking at number of successes. And if I were to have a bunch of smaller goals,
00:12:01
Speaker
and every once in a while shoot for the big one, my percent success might go up, but the actual number of successes I had would, I believe, drop significantly. That makes a lot of sense. That's actually, I think we actually have pretty similar mindsets about that as well, and also similar mindsets of the goals that we pick.
Balancing Risk and Success in Challenges
00:12:27
Speaker
I'm also kind of in that, like,
00:12:30
Speaker
There is a high risk of failure and that's part of the game.
00:12:42
Speaker
For me, actually my racing schedule this year, I have 200Ks and then Dragon's back. And part of me is itching for something bigger than that of like, yes, I know I can finish these 100Ks. Obviously the placement is kind of the success or failure to it, which is a different kind of mental challenge than, um, for me, generally it's more like myself against the just enormity of a Tour de Jean of a Moab 240.
00:13:11
Speaker
And so, but I always say like, if I get one, basically, if I get one out of those three successes, like, wow, that was a great year. Two or two is even amazing. Even more because when you pick these huge challenges, you really are setting yourself up for the fact that there's a possibility they're not going to work. So I guess, go ahead.
00:13:34
Speaker
Well, the other thing to remember here as well is these things that we're challenging ourselves with, we've chosen the mountains because we love them. And the more that we're passionate about the actual experience and about the process itself rather than it being this binary yes or no, I did what I set out to do.
00:13:59
Speaker
the more that we can get out of them. And the worst case outcome in general, if we're smart about it, is I fell short of my goal, but I got to get out and enjoy the mountains and to learn a lot of great things from that. So that's still a success.
00:14:22
Speaker
Absolutely. I think that that's so well put, John. As you were saying that, I was like, oh, yeah, I shouldn't have even brought that up because that's not actually what I was going for is to make sure I got one success in each year, for example. It was more that the reason we set these goals is so we have
00:14:46
Speaker
we make sure that we spend a good chunk of our lives doing these things that we love and that provides this structure. None of us would have come up with these objectives like running around Moab for 240 miles or the Tor for how many miles that is or climbing these remote unnamed unclimbed peaks because
00:15:10
Speaker
It's just really an excuse. It's really a structure to get out there and go be out there and run and be in the mountains and see those sunrises and be with people that love the same things we love. That's really what it's all about. It's great that you brought that up. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I guess, wow, we're going really off script.
00:15:35
Speaker
You've been, I mean, you've been successful for quite a bit of time and also through a variety of different, I guess we'll say mediums. I'm thinking like triathlon to marathon to longer distance. How have you managed or what place does running, et cetera, these successes or races
00:16:01
Speaker
play as a part of your identity? And was there ever a moment where they became too encapsulating of like, oh, I'm hanging my hat on what I'm doing? Or like, how have you managed to sit this part of your life in the bigger picture? That's a great question. And that could be, I think, a whole podcast in itself.
00:16:26
Speaker
There were definitely times early on in Berkeley, my first few attempts there, where it got a bit obsessive and consuming in terms of, you know, I have to finish. You know, I'm scared of not finishing, like I need to get this done.
Curiosity as a Driving Force in Running
00:16:42
Speaker
And it was, overall, the training and the preparation, I think, was not the healthiest approach and it was a bit of a negative impact on my life.
00:16:55
Speaker
Outside of that, I've largely been driven by curiosity and wanting to see what I'm capable of doing, wanting to see what these new and different experiences are like, getting to explore beautiful and incredible places that I would otherwise not have a chance to see.
00:17:19
Speaker
And that has evolved into now also being a curiosity more internally, like the
Applying Running Lessons to Life
00:17:28
Speaker
things that I learn about myself going out and taking on these challenges and these adventures have played a huge role in other areas of my life, whether it be my career or as a father or as a husband, they have improved me in significant ways.
00:17:49
Speaker
And one of those in general, really, is looking back at those early Berkeley attempts and being cognizant of the fact that that was a bit much my approach on that. And I now have a much healthier balance in terms of doing these things. And my more recent attempts at Berkeley and other
00:18:12
Speaker
big efforts have really been a piece of my life that fits in well with the other pieces rather than some all-consuming piece that's trying to knock the other pieces off the board. Yeah, I feel that entirely. Actually, you've already answered of what role does curiosity play in your racing and
00:18:43
Speaker
training because and I guess to go further into that because it is I mean, I loved seeing the grand round. Like I said, my husband loves following your career. He was so excited. He's he still thinks that's one of the most amazing ultra running feats that's been done. And I I would agree. So how how do you balance
00:19:03
Speaker
Obviously, you're very good at racing. You've done a lot of amazing races. But when you sit down to look at your calendar for the year, how do you manage the FKT the adventure side of things with the racing side of things? It's something selfishly I'm asking that because I am trying to figure that balance out because I like both of those two. And I'm not sure how to navigate it. So I'd love to hear how you manage that within your calendar within your planning, etc.
00:19:34
Speaker
So part of it is looking at having kind of a good ratio between the two of, again, if I have three big things per year, I would like for at least one of those to be a big race and at least one of those to be an FKT or like the grand round, something I just make up because I'm passionate about it and it sounds fun.
00:20:04
Speaker
Uh, and you know, the, the third can, can then be a wildcard, but there, I get a lot out of, out of both of those, the, the FKT type challenges or, or somewhere where I can, uh, fully.
00:20:20
Speaker
explore what I'm capable of. I can align it perfectly with my own passions. I can control more of the variables like the start time and maybe a little bit the weather conditions that I go out in. Whereas the races allow me to take what I've learned from those other challenges and see
00:20:43
Speaker
to get a better measure of my progress, kind of using other people as the measuring stick in those. And it's fun to compete. It's fun to share those experiences with other people. And the final piece of this really is just logistics, to be honest. We
Integrating Racing with Personal Life
00:21:05
Speaker
mentioned fitting it into the rest of my life.
00:21:09
Speaker
Sometimes there are races that won't work. I had a 50 miler that I was planning next month and just found out that my daughter has a dancer side along that day. So that's out and I'll come up with something else. I didn't get into Western states or hard rock this year like I was hoping I would.
00:21:31
Speaker
I'll come up with something else and those are those opportunities, those areas in my calendar where if there's not a big race that I'm excited about and that I get into and that fits into my schedule, then I just make it up and do something I love when I can do it. Yeah, it's so interesting to hear you talk about all of that. One of the things, John, that I'm just wanted to
00:21:59
Speaker
observe or know that I think the audience will also hear is, you know, you have this maturity around your viewpoint on these things that is enviable, I think, for many people, especially if I go back to my younger self that
00:22:16
Speaker
that if I wanted to be good at something, I would become obsessive about it. You mentioned this a little while ago with your early attempts on Barclays where it became sort of this obsession and you said it on balance had a negative impact on your life, is what I believe you said.
00:22:35
Speaker
you know, and then I hear you creating a dance recital for a 50 miler and that or a 50K and that is I think a place where a lot of people want to be, but a lot of people also struggle to be. Can you
00:22:53
Speaker
What gives you that? Are you at a point where you're always this way? Were you at a point where you're just like, okay, I've done enough and I really understand how this all fits in my life? Or was that always a natural balance for you?
00:23:15
Speaker
So as an engineer and a data scientist, most of what I do are constrained optimization problems. And doing that means that I have to accept the constraints. I can't magically have different parameters that I'm working with. I have to take those and I have to come up with the best possible solution that I can
00:23:43
Speaker
given the resources and limitations that I have. And so my racing and training is much the same way. Sure, there are times that I wish I could do more training volume. There are times that I wish I could do more races or different races. But the constraints of my life simply don't allow that. And so for me, it's a matter of
00:24:12
Speaker
kind of making simple goals and then seeing which of those are realistic given the constraints. And then after the fact, evaluating them in the context of what I actually faced and not really evaluating it in terms of the original goal. But, you know, take hard rock last year, for example, it's my goal was to try to go 24 hours, sub 24 hours.
00:24:41
Speaker
And, you know, that didn't work out. I got altitude sickness quite pretty bad and was puking at an aid station for four hours straight before dragging myself out of there and eventually recovering and working my way back up the field for a top ten finish.
00:25:02
Speaker
That wasn't my original goal at all. But looking back at what I faced and the constraints that I had, that's one of my proudest results, that I was able to deal with those obstacles and deal with those limitations and come away with that.
00:25:22
Speaker
Yeah,
Finding Pride in Overcoming Race Struggles
00:25:22
Speaker
I would second that. I mean, knowing what it feels like to have altitude sickness and to still dig in and find motivation to get back in there and didn't actually get some time back. That's an accomplishment.
00:25:41
Speaker
That's not so much about and that's the kind of accomplishment that I find so beautiful in this kind of running and racing and being the mountains is that it's not about beating someone else per se. I'm sure that other people are there and you're measuring yourself relative to them or whatever and then they motivate you to try a little harder.
00:26:05
Speaker
But more than anything, what I'm hearing is that you're proud of the struggle and you fought the good fight. And that's something to truly be proud of. That's to me more proud. Anyone can experience that, whether they're going to Hard Rock to be sub-24 or sub-48. And if they come away with that kind of feeling, but you're explaining, it doesn't matter if they were
00:26:29
Speaker
first place or last place, they're going to come all the way with a really positive impact from their experience. When I was young, I was one of those overly annoyingly competitive kids.
From Childhood Competitiveness to Team Efforts
00:26:46
Speaker
I'd make a competition out of everything.
00:26:50
Speaker
I was the youngest between my brother and my two cousins that lived next to us. I was always trying to make these competitions and I was always getting beat because I was four and five and six years younger than everyone else.
00:27:07
Speaker
I was still incessant about that, and I still have that drive, but my thinking has evolved so much more into looking at these sorts of things as collective efforts that we're all
00:27:22
Speaker
out there uh with the competition serving to propel each other farther forward and to our own personal limits and eventually uh to a collective limit where we're each bumping each other up and you know all the way up to to Killian a hard rock it's uh driving each other forward and i think my
00:27:46
Speaker
My biggest kind of realization moment on that was the back and forth that Damien Hall and I had on the Pennine Way record while I was in the UK. I went out and broke a 30 year old record and didn't have the best run, but I snuck in under the wire there. And then a week later, Damien comes along and beats my time. And then I came back.
00:28:14
Speaker
the next year and beat his time. And I beat it with something that I otherwise, if Damien hadn't have done what he did, I would not have had that goal time. I would absolutely have not run the time that I did. And if I hadn't have initially broken the record, he may not have run the time that he did. And so it's this iterative propelling each other forward.
00:28:39
Speaker
And Damien is a huge part of my time and my performance on that. And so while we might be striving to beat one another, the goal of that is not actually to beat the other person. It's using it as motivation to reach farther ourselves, wherever that might end up being.
Competition and Personal Growth
00:29:06
Speaker
whether it's ahead of or behind that person, you know, we reach the goal if it's pushing us forward. I love that idea of serving the serving because that's the spirit that I feel when I've been at, you know, as an observer at URE or Hard Rock or some of these other tour, I've been to tour and as an observer strictly, but
00:29:34
Speaker
that's the sense you get from the participants is that this community, of course it's a competition. I'm curious to hear something you said there I want to know more about and how you said you're all sort of serving the competition by participating in it is how I heard that. And then how you're
00:30:03
Speaker
you know, going out, for example, with Damien and trading this record and inspiring one another. But at what point does what
00:30:19
Speaker
As you push yourself, like what are you getting, right? Like what, that's kind of why I think where you stopped from is you, you just stopped short of saying like what it was that you're driving towards. Like, are you driving, what you're motivated to go and run a little faster. What is good about running a little faster? What is good about pushing yourself? Like what is, what is in that kernel?
00:30:45
Speaker
I would be lying if I said there wasn't a lot of satisfaction in reaching those goals and having those fastest times and those achievements. But
Self-awareness Through Running Challenges
00:30:56
Speaker
also for me, it has become
00:31:00
Speaker
where the biggest return for me and really what makes it worth the investment of my time away from family are the things that achieving those times force me to do and force me to learn about myself in terms of preparation and strategy, pushing through the tough times in the races or the FKT attempts
00:31:28
Speaker
While I'm out there, how do I overcome those obstacles? When I'm stripped down to my core and it's just a matter of moving forward, what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses when really nothing else matters? It's just me, my bare bones, no distractions, no excuses.
00:31:49
Speaker
what can I do here? And I take a lot away from that by having this sort of what I'll call an artificial struggle with lessons that then can apply to actual struggles in our life, whether it be with our family or health or finances or career or whatever it might be. Those are the big
00:32:17
Speaker
values for me that I'm taking away from it. That's beautiful. I always say that it's the opportunity every time I'm reaching for the edge of that, of what I believe my potential is. And every time I go out and do something, I'm getting a little bit closer to understanding what that means. And so every race, it's like,
00:32:43
Speaker
I mean, every race, every opportunity you look back at it and you go, I could have done this faster. I could have done that transition better. And I think that's the exciting part.
Learning and Improving from Each Race
00:32:53
Speaker
And I'm sure Steve, that you feel that with climbing mountains are like, Oh, I could have, you know, we could have done this belay in this area. We could have been faster on this pitch. And I think that's the exciting part is striving for that. And that keeps moving further. It's not stationary.
00:33:13
Speaker
And I think that that's the exciting part, and I think that's the part of all of us, I assume, share this in common, in that contentment is a difficult, if not impossible thing to achieve. And we're not really trying to achieve it, but by being slightly discontent most of your life, that also allows you to do amazing things. And actually, I guess I'd be curious, I'm saying this as a we, but I shouldn't put words in your mouth.
00:33:43
Speaker
contentment play a role in your life. Do you feel content or is there this sense of discontentment that is a driving factor? So I have also always been a perfectionist and a bit stubborn. We can make that sound positive by saying that I'm determined and resilient, but it's really the same thing. And for me,
00:34:14
Speaker
It is a bit odd to love this sport where there's really no such thing as a perfect outcome. There's simply too many variables for all of them to be perfect on one outing. And so that goes back a lot to kind of analyzing it afterwards. And like you say, seeing what could I have done better and where.
00:34:43
Speaker
And if I'm pretty content that I did most things well and the probability of me doing significantly better is low.
00:34:55
Speaker
then I'm happy with that. I move on to something else where there's a much better chance of getting a good result and a new experience. Again, looking at the benign way, I did my analysis on that after the fact and kind of said, if I had the perfect run,
00:35:21
Speaker
conditions were perfect, my training was perfect, I think I could go two hours faster. But the chances of that, like of the conditions being perfect and absolutely nothing going wrong is low. And so is it worth it to me to
00:35:44
Speaker
invest that much of a part of my life and that much of my schedule to go back to try to seek marginal returns with a low probability of success. And for me, the answer on that is no. There are so many other adventures out there to be had. There are so many more things to do, and I can get so much more
00:36:09
Speaker
out of turning my focus and attention to something else. And that's, again, where these collective efforts and pushes can come back into play. If Damien went out there this summer and beat my time by four hours, I'd have to rethink my analysis. I'd have to go back and think, well, geez, how did he do that? How is that possible? Could I actually go faster than I thought I did?
00:36:36
Speaker
And that would be an opportunity to rethink that. But in all honesty, if he went four hours faster than my time, I'd probably say, holy crap. I'm good. He's got it. Yeah. Yeah. I want to reflect something that I heard both of you say in different ways. And I like the way you said this, John, that you could say that stubborn and determined are
00:37:07
Speaker
different takes on the same trait as you. But what I really hear here is that, you know, this is who you are, you know, it doesn't, and we can put labels on it that you're, you know, stubborn, which might have a negative connotation or determined that I have a positive connotation. But what you're really doing is standing with both feet on the ground firmly rooted in the reality of, of who you are.
00:37:36
Speaker
and expressing that. And you don't need to make, actually, it's the opposite. The last thing you ever need to do is make an excuse for that. I think there are so many people in the world that are not able to do that because they haven't been shown that that is possible or that that is desirable. And in fact, I think we'd all be much better off
00:38:06
Speaker
people did have themselves planted firmly and did know exactly who they were and were unapologetic about it. And yeah, I may show up as stubborn sometimes, I may show up as determined sometimes, but this is me and being in these sports, whether it's FKTs or races, helps me express the best version of myself. And that's enough.
00:38:33
Speaker
Absolutely. And that's where I mentioned earlier that these things not only help me learn valuable lessons and discover my strengths, but also my weaknesses. And for example, for a mulcher running, I have a very strong awareness of the fact that I tend to allow small problems to just kind of slowly and steadily grow until they become
00:38:58
Speaker
big things that I can no longer ignore. And so that's something that I'm aware of my tendency to do that. And because of that, I can try to address that and prevent that as an issue. But it's important when reflecting on any of these things, you know, looking
00:39:24
Speaker
As far as that contentment goes, I look at where I've come from. And starting off, getting back into running, I thought maybe, maybe if I train and if I do well enough, I can qualify for the Boston Marathon. And I've since blown that goal out of the water and shot way past it. And the things I'm doing, I would have told you, you were crazy. Just absolutely nuts.
00:39:54
Speaker
I will not attempt that. If I do attempt it, I might die. I'm not going to succeed. And so having that context, again, of everyone has their limits in every area, but we're all capable of so much more than we imagine. Our potential is over a horizon that we can't even initially see it. And so having that context,
00:40:23
Speaker
of where I've come from and then looking forward, accepting where I am and setting my goals and my future path based on where I am instead of on where I wish I were. And,
Realistic Goal Planning for the Future
00:40:38
Speaker
you know, maybe I wish that I were perfect and didn't have these weaknesses and these flaws and these constraints on my life, but
00:40:46
Speaker
you know, planning a way forward from this spot way over that I wish I were at. That's not going to serve any purpose or be of any value to me. Yeah. I'm curious, going back just a little bit, where you said at the beginning of your career, and I can relate to this very deeply, that
00:41:15
Speaker
you're very competitive, you went into Berkeley, it wasn't always healthy, and now you have this back and forth with Damien, also he's gonna be on the podcast, so like, I don't know if we need to set up an episode after, you know, we keep getting better. So I'm curious if there was a shift or where that shift was from this sometimes competitiveness that can be quite a negative on our lives to,
00:41:43
Speaker
Using it to both to better the community to better yourself to better your competitor Where did that happen? Can you kind of pinpoint a time or is it an evolution? Like where was that and how did you? Come to the point you're at right now It was a bit of an evolution and I think the evolution was more
00:42:06
Speaker
of it going from words, things that I knew, to really truly internalizing that in the way that I respond to these things both with my actions going forward and with my emotions. Going back as far as high school cross-country, we always said that
00:42:31
Speaker
every single person on the team counts because you know the slowest runner is pushing the next slowest who's pitching pushing the next goal all the way up to the fastest person on the team and that was those were great things to say but you know if i got beat i was mad i didn't i didn't like it one bit and so it it really uh it was an evolution again of of going from this thing that i
00:43:00
Speaker
knew I should feel to something that I actually did feel. And a lot of these big efforts that I did in the UK, where I switched from prior to that doing mostly unsupported, self-supported things to like the grand round and the benign way and my
00:43:24
Speaker
five and a half day Wainwright's that I did just before I left. These were all supported by just massive support crews, people on the roads, people out on the hills with me, and it was just entirely a team effort and a collective thing to be able to get to that point with not only having the previous times as benchmarks to shoot for,
00:43:52
Speaker
But having the routes laid out and being able to optimize that, having plans on when and where to sleep, who could specialize in navigating each section, it was entirely a team effort. And to feel such a part of that really then extended
00:44:14
Speaker
to the competition and these other actual races and other things that I do and recognizing the fact that really all of these are collective efforts to grow and to learn and push ourselves as far as we can. While in the midst of this, just enjoying the opportunity to get out in the mountains and see some beautiful places. Yeah, that looks all great.
00:44:43
Speaker
love all these sediments. One of the things that I think that our audience will really appreciate, John, is hearing this coming from you, of all people, saying that, you know, your goal was to try to qualify for Boston, sorry. And then, you know, I don't know how many years ago was that? So I started in 2013. I failed twice and then I qualified for Boston. That's not that long ago. Yeah, in 2014.
00:45:13
Speaker
That's, that's my point, right? Like that's, there's a lot of people listening to this who can imagine 10 years, myself included. And, you know, you got to really, you know, think, okay, what, you know, all too often I think people think, Oh, I want to run Barclays when what they really need to do is qualify for Boston first.
00:45:34
Speaker
for example, and then see how that goes or whatever the goal is that's appropriate for them. And there are people, one of the things I've noticed with a lot of the successful people that I've come to know in my life is that they have this knack for setting goals that are both challenging and attainable. And then they just kind of continuously recalibrate.
00:45:58
Speaker
And this is one of the things I've heard from you today that I think is so valuable to our audience is understanding that everybody does that, even the people that are at the best top of the sport. Yeah. I might have a big kind of eventual one day goal, but recognize that it's
00:46:23
Speaker
It's something that I, there's absolutely no chance right now. And it's a matter of choosing intermediate goals that I feel just might be possible. Like again, I might fail, but they're going to force me to reach as far as I currently possibly can. And if I can reach that far, then I can pull myself up onto a new step
00:46:49
Speaker
And from there, aim for the next one. And eventually, maybe I'll get up to that big goal. And this, in general, goes towards this process of even during an individual event, decomposing it into manageable chunks where we can actually have a plan that our minds can actually comprehend without getting overwhelmed. Whereas, like doing Barkley,
00:47:20
Speaker
or any of these cultures really i'm thinking okay i've got to make it up this next climb and this amount of time and then the next one and then to that checkpoint and i'm never lining up at the starting line and thinking okay i have 60 hours to make it this far like it's just it's overwhelming your mind can't
00:47:40
Speaker
pull in all of that, everything that it takes all at once. So it's all in steps and chunks that you can make a realistic plan for. Yeah, that's such a great point. It's something I've changed a lot of my mindset, especially with ultra running. And to go back to the longer term plan, it's why I'm not running Tour de Jean this year is because I don't feel I want
00:48:06
Speaker
I need like a year to two years of growth before I can do Tour de Jean the way that I want to do it. And so I looked at it last year and was like, I don't feel ready for this step yet. I want to go back and do it the way that I know I can do it. And I know that I need more growth before that can happen. Um, so I totally, yeah, that makes complete sense. So I guess to tie it in or go ahead.
00:48:32
Speaker
I was just gonna say it was last year very similar for me. With my personality after that big failure in 2021, of course I wanted to turn right back around and take it on again in 2022. But I got into hard rock and that was also the time that my family and I were moving back from the UK to the US and so there was just
00:48:59
Speaker
There was way too much going on to be able to give my best effort and have it of the performance that I want to have at Tour de Giont last year. So I had to set that aside and part of that came from the much more unbiased perspective of my coach telling me that that was probably a bit much.
00:49:26
Speaker
But yeah, so here we are. Had to wait a year, but I'll be back. That's awesome. Well, I'm curious now, having had this conversation and moving towards the end of it, what made you want to go back to Berkeley and how do you feel
00:49:49
Speaker
your first performance and I hate to compare but do you feel more satisfied with your second finish than the first and like where have you analyzed hey I could have done this better
Reflecting on the Berkeley Marathon Experience
00:50:03
Speaker
maybe that could be better and also why did you want to go back for a second time?
00:50:11
Speaker
After I first finished, I took a year off, I accrued for the race, experienced it from a different side, and then I wanted to, it was again mainly a curiosity, like what would the race be like?
00:50:25
Speaker
if I've already finished, how would that affect my mindset, my ability to push through some of these low points? And so I went back in 2019 and the answer, yeah, it wasn't good. You have gone back multiple times, I should say, like your second time, but yeah. Well, in 2019, I was in the lead after two loops and I was cursed with the knowledge of what the later loops would bring and what they would require and I just,
00:50:55
Speaker
I quit. I didn't have that mindset. And after analyzing that and reflecting on it, I didn't want Berkeley to end that way. And gradually over time, again, I developed this good equilibrium where I had the motivation and the fire to finish, but without it consuming my life.
00:51:17
Speaker
I went back last year and unfortunately I had a mishap where I lost the waste belt that I was carrying my pages in and so it ran out of time. But eventually circling back to this year, where again, I had that healthy mindset and my goal, whereas in that first, in that 2019 attempt, my goal was to find out
00:51:41
Speaker
what it would be like to run the race as a previous finisher. In 2019, I found out, and then my goal going back this year was to see, okay, now I know what it's like. Can I still adapt my strategy? Can I still adapt my mindset to be able to finish knowing what I now know? And to be able to essentially just
00:52:10
Speaker
will myself forward for no other reason than I'm telling myself to, to not have this big, shiny, alluring goal of becoming a finisher that is helping drive me forward. You know, everyone at Berkeley, to get to finish the race, everyone is
00:52:32
Speaker
almost entirely intrinsically motivated, but this time I had to be 100%. 100% I'm doing this because it is something that I am willing myself forward to do. And that was a huge confidence boost, just knowing that I now have that level of control over my own mind.
00:52:55
Speaker
to be able to do that. And again, that is something that I'm going to hit challenging points in my career and in raising my kids through their teenage years, I'm sure. And just thinking, OK, I've done this. I've been in this spot. I know how to will myself forward. And it's going to be fine. We'll come out from this.
00:53:23
Speaker
I think that as I listen to you talk about this confidence that you have the will to do this and how do you see that? How do you experience that for yourself? Is that like kind of always in there and you think it's locked away and it's in there for all time? Is it a more fluid property? Do you have, do you have a,
00:53:50
Speaker
How do you think about that? How do you think about that motivation or that will to move yourself forward as you put it, will take on these challenges on any level, whether it's parenting or professional or touching qualities. There's a bit of that that I think is innate.
00:54:08
Speaker
in me. But getting to what I'm doing now, things like a second Barkley finish, there have definitely been things that I've learned and the experiences themselves in terms of building this sort of mental reservoir of things that I can recall, of past low points that I've hit and been able to pop out of those.
00:54:34
Speaker
of past points where I've thought, oh, this isn't possible. I can't do this. And then I still managed to make it through. Like those things gradually build that mental fortitude, build that confidence and grow the number of things that you can tell yourself when, you know, one part of your mind is saying,
00:55:01
Speaker
No, quit. You can't do it. It's not worth it. And you're able to bring up a memory of, oh yeah, you remember the last time you told me this? And we still made it through. So no, I'm fine. And I've also learned to focus a lot on what has gone into it. And relatively speaking, how little was left.
00:55:30
Speaker
Like when you show up at the start line of a race, you're almost at the finish line, really. When you think of all the effort that's gone into preparing all of the training, the things that both you and your supporters have put into this. And I'm out there on a 60-hour event and hit a low point a day and a half into it.
00:55:58
Speaker
Think to myself not jeez, there's 24 hours left. How can I possibly make it 24 hours, but instead frame that as I've really been at this for months Like if not longer, what is another 24 hours? That's that's nothing That's okay. Just just finish it step across the line and it's done and all of that pays off And you never get that
00:56:28
Speaker
You never get that 24 hours back. You'll never get to experience that moment in that race like that ever again. And so I did this after 350 mile FKT attempt. I had about six miles and I was not moving fast. So I had about two hours and I went, I was with a great friend. I told him if I ever made it this far, that he had to run the last six miles with me. And I just went, embrace this, love this part because
00:56:55
Speaker
This is so special. Don't wish it away just to be finished. Embrace and be in this moment because you don't get to do this again. It will never be like this. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, it's very, very hard to have the mental focus and clarity to think of this in the moment, but always kind of thinking of
00:57:23
Speaker
If I quit, you know, I'm not a death before DNF guy by any means. We spent the first part of this talking about my battle with Rabdo and how happy I was that I quit and those circumstances, but trying to really process things and think of, you know, if I quit now,
00:57:43
Speaker
what will me in one week think about that decision? Am I going to be happy with that or am I going to seriously regret that? And it's, again, it's very difficult to do that. But that's something that I always try to do when I'm at low points. And that's, again, something where having had those prior experiences and I can remember, hey,
00:58:08
Speaker
You remember that other time you quit and how mad you were with yourself after that? You don't want to do that again. Yeah. If I may share a way I've come to think about this and being the oldest of the group here,
00:58:27
Speaker
I think that this, I originally constructed this around alpinism, but I think it's very much the same for these events that you both do. And it's when you, let's say, you know, it doesn't have to be the start line, but in the beginning before the big challenge, you're sort of like, let's say the start line, you're at the start line and you kind of put yourself under this like spell. It's like you have this magical thinking, right? Like,
00:58:54
Speaker
you don't really fully understand what all it's going to take out of you or how low those low points are going to be or how painful it's going to be, or you're going to get altitude illness or not, or have GI issues or not, or whatever the challenges may be, right? So the magical thinking is that none of that is going to happen, right? You're going to run your perfect race or have your perfect event. You always start that way. And then when the challenge happens,
00:59:23
Speaker
Like I think of it as like a graph and you're, you know, you start up here in the middle and then it drops down and you're at the bottom. And when you're at the bottom and it's, it's really the worst, that's the point at which you either quit or you don't quit. Right. And if you, here's the interesting thing though, if you quit, okay, you DNF like you talked about, and then you have this,
00:59:49
Speaker
or in climbing you descend or bail or whatever. When it comes time to do that again, you don't start at the bottom again. Like the next race, you don't line up and you're not at the bottom. You're back in the magical thinking place. And it resets every time. And I think that's so wonderful about humans that we can do that. We're so resilient in that way and this can truly be
01:00:16
Speaker
expressed in other parts of our lives, which is a theme that you've brought up a number of times, John, which I really appreciate and I really hope that other people share. I've certainly leaned a lot of my experiences in the mountains in other parts of my life, that's for sure. The other part of it is if you're at that bottom and you don't quit,
01:00:39
Speaker
I'd love to hear a story about a time when you were at that bottom and you didn't quit because that's its own experience. And typically, what I see and what I hear from these stories is when you don't quit, as soon as you realize that it's at the bottom and you're not going to quit, it gets better.
01:01:02
Speaker
And whether that's that mental trick of forecasting your future self from a week from now, what you're going to think of having exited the race, or whatever other magic trick you pull out to justify that at the time.
01:01:22
Speaker
If you don't, then it's over. That's the worst part. And you've moved past it. And this is so true of almost every kind of challenge, I find. Not just these physical ones, but entrepreneurial ones, professional ones, relationships, all these things, right? Yeah, absolutely.
01:01:48
Speaker
You know to me It's all of these things are almost like a game of chess and and you start each game with the board and exactly the same position at that That that nice high point where everything's perfect and for me I have my plan and
01:02:06
Speaker
which is what I am going to do, the things I can control, the things that I want to do. And then I have my preparations, which is envisioning all of the different scenarios that I can find myself in. And what do I do in those scenarios? And once I have those preparations, I stop worrying about the scenarios because I can't control whether or not they happen.
01:02:31
Speaker
But once I'm there, I instinctively know what to do. I don't have to think about it. I don't have to worry. One of those preparations for those low points, you asked for a specific example. I mean, the one at Hard Rock last year is probably the best and the most poignant, where I was moving pretty well and was
01:02:57
Speaker
top five for the first half of the race and then started to struggle went over the highest peak and just every few steps just you know doubled over and hurling and retching and made my way down to the aid station and just I couldn't even put water to my lips without
01:03:18
Speaker
uh you know just out of control vomiting or you know dry heaving at the least and and it was it was bad uh and i had to recognize again that that i've i've been there before another example is barkley this year i started to struggle on just the second loop on that night loop i just it was cold my
01:03:42
Speaker
My stomach got out of whack, I wasn't getting calories down, I wasn't moving fast, and I basically just latched on to the people I was with and hung on. And knowing, knowing that if I could just do that, if I could just get to the other side, I would be okay. And so a big part of that is not just, not just recalling those prior experiences, but again, accepting where I am,
01:04:13
Speaker
to not try to move forward based on where I wish I were at. I could be sitting there at the boroughs aid station at Hard Rock thinking, well, I wish I was still in top five and with 24 hours within reach. And what good would that do me? That wasn't realistic at that point. And so I'm adjusting my goals. I'm adjusting my strategy on the fly where I
01:04:42
Speaker
I try to keep it moment to moment, something that is, again, just out of my reach, something that is going to keep me motivated to go forward, that I see as possible, that I can convince myself as possible. And so as I'm sitting there at the head station, puking and resting and generally unable to move with a splitting headache and everything else that comes along with it, my goals are gradually dropping.
01:05:12
Speaker
You know, I can hold on to top 10. That'll get me going again. And then, well, you know, 30 hours. That's good. That's a great goal. That's, you know, not many people make it under that hard rock. And eventually, you know, I'm dozing in and off. I don't know how many people have even passed me at this point. And I think, well, I can probably still get top 25.
01:05:38
Speaker
I dropped to that point, and eventually my friend Stephanie Case came through. We had a bit of a running joke that I had the curse of Case. Any time we were at the same race, I didn't have a stellar result. Many of them I had DNF'd. So she came through and said, no, no, not again. That got me going again.
01:06:05
Speaker
didn't want to didn't want her to also carry that that joke on. So I got up and started moving with her and eventually my
01:06:19
Speaker
my goals started creeping back up again to just just a carrot on a stick really that's that's what it is and i started to move i started to be able to get fluids and a bit of and some calories down and progressively got to the point where i
01:06:35
Speaker
I made the last, well, second to last real big climb and started to pick it up and started to legitimately run. And then I started to see people in front of me and started to think, okay, well, I can catch up to that person. I can pick that person up and again, just progressive.
01:06:54
Speaker
motivation and eventually my goals crept all the way back up to I can get back in the top 10. Let's do this. Let's go. And I made it back into that position. I think I had dropped to around 25th in my time at the aid station.
01:07:12
Speaker
And coming away from that, again, I'm thrilled with that. And that then goes, these things build on top of each other. That goes right into my reservoir, right into my set of memories that I recall when I hit those points again in the future. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's a great story of Nod. And I think that
01:07:37
Speaker
You know, one of the things that I hear you saying that is so relatable, I'm sure for so many of our listeners and for myself as well as, you know, you are staying planted and present in the, for lack of a better word, I want to say suffering, but really let's just call it experience because suffering has a bit of a negative connotation. And I think that's what you were saying, Alisa, with those last six miles.
01:08:04
Speaker
you know, this is what you signed up for. We used to make jokes about that in alpinism when we were like really suffering. It was like, you know, kind of like, Hey, this is, this is the part you came for. This is what you showed up for. This is the part you really like. Cause this is, this is what it's actually all about is getting into that state and getting to know yourself.
01:08:23
Speaker
Right. And getting to know your, you know, and, you know, and climbing, climbing partners, but, you know, your ultra running has its own community, like your rapport with Stephanie and that story is amazing. And this is, this is not just something for her, you to help.
01:08:39
Speaker
hold on to actually it's also I'm sure she's going to carry that into the future of the rest of her life whatever experiences she may have like that time that she came into that station and John was like you know laid out and then pulled it back together and got up and she will also that became part of her story too so I think that you know this
01:09:00
Speaker
All of this, for me, just speaks volumes about how beautiful these experiences are that we all seek out in the mountains, whether it's running or climbing or skiing or whatever.
01:09:17
Speaker
these are the issues. I love how this interview is unfolded, how this discussion is unfolded, because this is my happy place where I get to talk about what we learn and what we feel and what we experience and how we share it and those things. And the reason that's my happy place is because that's the part that's human and that's the part that's
01:09:40
Speaker
that everyone experiences no matter whether they're top 10 or bottom 10, right? Like they're having some version of this experience for themselves. And, you know, everybody's got, what did you call your engineering problems? Constrained? Yeah, okay. Constrained optimization. Constrained optimization. I love that term. Okay. I'm going to remember that. Cause everything is a constrained optimization problem. Literally everything. Yeah.
01:10:09
Speaker
It's staying planted in reality, like business, running, climbing mountains. You can only produce so much power at 26,000 feet in a human body or at
01:10:29
Speaker
13,000 feet and or at 16 feet. And so, you know, that's an optimization, constrained optimization problem, too. So it's great. It's a great viewpoint on all of this. I really think that there's a lot of great lessons in this.
01:10:47
Speaker
I do have to quickly, in case Stephanie does listen, have to apologize to her again. I don't know if she'll remember it as quite as positive an experience. She came into the aid station also not feeling well, and I saw her stagger in and just kind of instinctively said, oh yeah, me too, and held up my
01:11:11
Speaker
my barf bag that I'd been crushing for four hours, I don't think that helped her situation. But she got out of there and had a good finish as well. And I like what you said. I don't think that's, it's not something I've fully framed it as myself before, but I'll definitely remember now is thinking that, you know, again,
01:11:33
Speaker
This is what you came for. The goal is to reach this point because that is where the growth and the learning truly happens. And so if I don't embrace and push through this experience, then it wasn't worth it. I did all of this and invested the time into preparing and into traveling to and doing this far in the race. And if I don't,
01:12:03
Speaker
embrace this experience, then it doesn't return that value to me. I've always disliked the start of races. I like the meat, like the middle and the end of races because I always feel like that's where I learned the most. That's what I came for, is that part of it.
01:12:24
Speaker
But John, thank you so much for this. We did not follow the script at all, which has been awesome. It's been such an incredible conversation. And I want to respect your time because we're right up against the edge of it. But is there a place people can find you? I know you have an amazing website, but I'd love to be able to connect people to the best platforms to see what you're up to.
01:12:50
Speaker
Right. And, you know, I've mainly viewed scripted questions as the backup in case things aren't going well with a nice fluid conversation. So I think we did great there. And as you mentioned, I've got a blog, randomforestrunner.com, which is a, that's a play on words between my data science career and my running career. Random forest is an algorithm that I use in my work.
01:13:17
Speaker
You answered my question. Yeah, enjoy running through random forests. And I don't get to post outside of rest reports. I don't get to post there as much as I used to and as much as I would like. Hopefully, at some point, I'll get back to that. But there are also links to my social media there. I'm currently running through a series of posts of giving some of these discrete lessons that I've learned from doing hard things on there. Excellent.
01:13:47
Speaker
Great. We'll definitely send some people your way because you've got lots of great lessons to share. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, which I can't imagine you didn't, please rate, review, and subscribe to the uphill athlete podcast.
01:14:10
Speaker
Thank you, Elisa, and thank you, John, for bringing yourselves, your experience, being vulnerable with me, opening up, and sharing all this amazing wisdom. I really enjoyed this conversation. It's not just one, but a community. Together, we are uphill athletes.